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    #31
    Maybe the darts don't actually generate that amount of energy, but through some fuzzy exotic principle, manage to have buffers and power conduits that can transfer those levels of energy.
    However, I'd like to know how you could theoretically turn matter into energy without spending insane amounts of energy.

    As for the firepower figures, this was based on a screenshot from Misbegotten.
    There's nothing definitive there, and the interpretation of the phenomenoms occuring at the point of impact may suggest that we may need more evidence than this single event.
    It's of course literally absurd to think that such ships could not achieve at least that level of destruction, especially since the Wraith defeated the Lantians and their super advanced weapons.

    There's also the fact that looking at No Man's Land, we see that a single nuclear detonation almost at point blank range is not enough to actually vaporize or melt external armor, while fire exchanged between hiveships produce massive explosions, and for the most powerful of them, send large chunks of the super structure flying left and right.

    No Man's Land is an example of indirect evidence, and clearly boils down to the yield of the nukes fired by the Daedalus.
    All evidence thus far has proved that the ordinance ranges from low megatons to possibly thousands of megatons (very low gigatons).
    Last edited by Mister Oragahn; 09 December 2006, 04:05 AM.
    The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

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      #32
      Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post
      This is similar to something I'd considered myself but it's fairly obvious from dialog that it is taking people apart.

      It dematerializes people and stores them as something they call a "lifesign" which is presumably some sort of energy packet that equates to a person. It also records their information (how to put them back together) and stores that.
      Although what happened in Duet seems to support the theory that the culling beam stores mind states seperately to the actual bodies, matter-energy conversion or not.

      The biggest problem with a convert-into-energy device is the huge amounts of energy involved. Picking up a large pile of rocks and would give a dart ludicrous think-dinosaur-killing-asteroid firepower capable of drilling through the Deadalus' shields like they aren't there, not to mention the uber-explosion that would result if you blew up a dart. Yet they haven't demonstrated any awesome power like that.

      Plus, as you mentioned, the inevitable copy-paste feature. Darts could just go scoop up some dirt and turn into more darts, or whatever they wanted.

      Does "dematerialisation" have to mean "convert into energy"? The dictionary definition is roughly "make something disappear by making it immaterial". If you transitioned something to a subspace pocket, that would be making them dissapear, and they would be immaterial from the PoV of anyone in this region of space.

      And the people in the dart are refered to as "lifesigns". How can there be lifesigns if they're just energy in a battery?

      Do these blips represent the human as energy, or the information of a person converted into energy, or their mind states, or the subject in stasis in a subspace pocket?



      If the culling beam worked as I described, these blips would represent both the person's body in stasis in a subspace pocket, and their mind state (their "information"?). Upon "rematerialisation" they would emerge and have their mind state downloaded back into their body.

      Maybe Zelenka just didn't understand enough about the technology to say how it worked beyond "it stores people"?

      I just think it makes far more sense that having the darts with such ludicrous amounts of energy and computing power.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Wraith Scientist View Post
        Although what happened in Duet seems to support the theory that the culling beam stores mind states seperately to the actual bodies, matter-energy conversion or not.

        The biggest problem with a convert-into-energy device is the huge amounts of energy involved. Picking up a large pile of rocks and would give a dart ludicrous think-dinosaur-killing-asteroid firepower capable of drilling through the Deadalus' shields like they aren't there, not to mention the uber-explosion that would result if you blew up a dart. Yet they haven't demonstrated any awesome power like that.
        There's a difference between being able to store the energy and being able to use it in some sort of weapon I'd say. Making a bomb of it is fairly easy but doing so wouldn't really render any better result than typical Wraith energy weapons seem to.

        Wondering why darts don't explode when they have people in them is another curious point but one not entirely unprecidented. Virtually all ships in stargate don't seem to explode in a way consistant with how much energy they should have flowing around in them. It might be possible that the energy is stored in subspace like you go on to suggest for the human bodies.

        Plus, as you mentioned, the inevitable copy-paste feature. Darts could just go scoop up some dirt and turn into more darts, or whatever they wanted.
        Indeed. We don't actually know how the Wraith build things though so transmuting it from normal matter with the culling beam technology (or related technology) remains an actual possability.

        Does "dematerialisation" have to mean "convert into energy"? The dictionary definition is roughly "make something disappear by making it immaterial". If you transitioned something to a subspace pocket, that would be making them dissapear, and they would be immaterial from the PoV of anyone in this region of space.
        Well to make somthing non-material you would presumably have to at least make it non solid. The wording of the episode strongly implies that the humans culled are broken down in some fashion for storage which is why I settled on that for my explanation.

        It's not the only possible explanation true, and it does have a few problems, but right now it does seem like the one with the most support.

        Maybe Zelenka just didn't understand enough about the technology to say how it worked beyond "it stores people"?
        What happened is the writers invented something that sounds an awful lot like a matter>energy converter without thinking the implications or requirements all the way through. If we're keeping SoD though we're not allowed to use that as an explanation.

        I just think it makes far more sense that having the darts with such ludicrous amounts of energy and computing power.
        The computing power isn't isolated in darts. The Wraith are obviously very skilled at writing computer code and likely at building hardware as well. Looking at how they were able to write a computer program that could achieve a near human level of intelligence using only the resources of the completely alien Daedalus computer system clearly shows that.

        Their computer/programming tech is way up there.

        The energy requirments are a bit harder to explain. If we grant that they have some method of converting matter to energy that doesn't require vast amounts of energy though it gets easier. If we grant that we only need to worry about storage and transfer and their weapon yields prove that they have the tech to shunt power levels like this around fairly easily.

        Here's another interesting bit from duet about the culling beam

        IST (in German): That reminds me of my nephew’s birth!
        (John watches, then turns to Radek who is at the top of a ladder leading up to the cockpit where another scientist sits inside.)
        SHEPPARD: How’s it coming?
        ZELENKA: Well, the good news is we were able to stabilise the lifesigns signature. (He comes down the ladder.) Now it’s just a question of getting the machine online again.
        SHEPPARD: Great. How do we power it up?
        ZELENKA: Well, that’s the bad news. The machine uses a very specialised transformer to convert raw power into highly stable, very specific stream of power. (He goes over to a tray labelled “Transformer bits” and picks it up to show John.) Now the transformer’s crucial in operating the machine safely and, uh, (he picks up the transformer and gives it to John) it’s been damaged.
        SHEPPARD (looking at it and then handing it back): Don’t suppose there are any spares in the trunk?
        ZELENKA: We’re working on reverse engineering one.
        SHEPPARD: Good. Let me know the second you have something.
        (He walks away as Radek starts shouting instructions to the other scientists.)
        ZELENKA (in Czech): Well, OK then, come on kids, go go go. We have to finish this one! Let's get going! Hurry!
        So theres some sort of component that converts raw power into some sort of specific and specialized type of energy the dart uses to rematerialize people.

        The talk about stablizing the lifesigns signature, and indeed the whole premise of this episode, has interestign implications to.

        Comment


          #34
          Two points i thought i'd bring up.

          The first one is that now that we've seen a quantifiable event in the form of the CME in "Echoes", we could easily figure out the Wraith firepower based on that figure (when compared to the timeperiod involved in the bombing of Atlantis). This would of course be an extreme lower limit, as i've yet to see anything but calcs based on the KE involved in the CME incident. If nothing else, this would give further credence to the high firepower levels of the Wraith.

          Second is just a minor point and is based on nothing but speculation. Wraith Drone faceplates. I don't think they're fixed to the face. Why? Because of "Misbegotten". There were a number of people down on that planet and none had any kind of unusual bonestructure in their face. Now i realize that the De-Wraithifying could have removed that faceplate, but i just think it more likely that they are indeed normal Wraith and the faceplate is nothing but a form of armor.
          "A witty remark proves nothing" - Voltaire

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by l33telboi View Post
            Two points i thought i'd bring up.

            The first one is that now that we've seen a quantifiable event in the form of the CME in "Echoes", we could easily figure out the Wraith firepower based on that figure (when compared to the timeperiod involved in the bombing of Atlantis). This would of course be an extreme lower limit, as i've yet to see anything but calcs based on the KE involved in the CME incident. If nothing else, this would give further credence to the high firepower levels of the Wraith.
            We're hoping to get some good numbers from this once it becomes more apparent to what degree exactly the ZPM enhanced a 304s shields.

            Second is just a minor point and is based on nothing but speculation. Wraith Drone faceplates. I don't think they're fixed to the face. Why? Because of "Misbegotten". There were a number of people down on that planet and none had any kind of unusual bonestructure in their face. Now i realize that the De-Wraithifying could have removed that faceplate, but i just think it more likely that they are indeed normal Wraith and the faceplate is nothing but a form of armor.
            The Wraith skeleton in "childhood's end" has a faceplate that is seems to be a part of his skull.

            You can sort of see it in this pic here.
            http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/106x192.html

            That still doesn't rule out some sort of bonding of the facemask to the skull after the fact though. With their understanding of biotech it might stay stuck on even after the rest of the Wraith rots away.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post
              The Wraith skeleton in "childhood's end" has a faceplate that is seems to be a part of his skull.

              You can sort of see it in this pic here.
              http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/106x192.html

              That still doesn't rule out some sort of bonding of the facemask to the skull after the fact though. With their understanding of biotech it might stay stuck on even after the rest of the Wraith rots away.
              While the 'bone plate' is a cool and interesting way to have it I think its the secondary option of it being a facemask. I mean if its a Serpent Guard Jaffa with his 'helm' and it was activated and he died we wouldnt make the assumption that the Jaffa had a giant cobra head for its head.

              Plus being a facemask would leave the option for a possible HUD being displayed as the Wraith dont seem to have a problem in using advanced tech to help them unlike the Ori and the Goa'uld who tended to give their followers primitive weapons to fight their foes.


              'Hallowed are the children of the Ori. CROWD: Hallowed are we. Hallowed are the Ori.' -

              'Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the Gods, ships shall be built to carry the warriors out among the stars and we will spread Origin to all the unbelievers. The power of the Ori will be felt far and wide and the wicked shall be vanquished' -


              Contribute to the Stargate Wiki a source for any information on the Stargate universe from the books, RPG to games and comics.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Prior_of_the_Ori View Post
                While the 'bone plate' is a cool and interesting way to have it I think its the secondary option of it being a facemask. I mean if its a Serpent Guard Jaffa with his 'helm' and it was activated and he died we wouldnt make the assumption that the Jaffa had a giant cobra head for its head.

                Plus being a facemask would leave the option for a possible HUD being displayed as the Wraith dont seem to have a problem in using advanced tech to help them unlike the Ori and the Goa'uld who tended to give their followers primitive weapons to fight their foes.
                There's a difference though. In the picture above, the faceplate clearly looks like dried bone, like it's grown out of the skull.
                So, true, with biotech, you don't know where naturally grown appendages stops and fused parts begins, a bit like a biomechanoid.

                It's true that Misbegotten had no Wraith wear such a faceplate. But there's another possibility. These Wraith are just so weak and down the chain that they simply don't survive dewraithizer.

                Originally posted by l33telboi View Post
                Two points i thought i'd bring up.

                The first one is that now that we've seen a quantifiable event in the form of the CME in "Echoes", we could easily figure out the Wraith firepower based on that figure (when compared to the timeperiod involved in the bombing of Atlantis). This would of course be an extreme lower limit, as i've yet to see anything but calcs based on the KE involved in the CME incident. If nothing else, this would give further credence to the high firepower levels of the Wraith.
                Adding to Ouro's reply and to post here what he discussed about a bit earlier on, I have to say that we don't know how efficient the shield tech on the Daedalus is.
                As I see it, a ZPM is just damn powerful, significantly more than what the higher figures of Echoes.
                Even if I'm wrong anyway, the point is that we don't how much of good use the shields make of the ZPM.

                Say we got two Power Sources.

                PS A, the by default one, gives you a power of 1 unit of energy per second. Now, let's assume this translates into 5 units of shielding per second.

                Now, we get got PW B (the ZPM), rare and all. We plug it to the ship's systems and power conduits. PS B has a power of 1,000,000 units of energy per second. The factor between the two power sourcse is 1,000,000.
                Now, does that mean that the shield now have a yield of 5,000,000 units of shielding per second? (100% efficiency)

                I believe that 304s shields couldn't even take advantage of a decent percentage of the power provided by a ZPM. The limiting factor being the shield tech, or the power conduits (even if the feat achieved in Echoes is insane and proves that the Daedalus has power conduits which can at least maintain that flux of energy, which is quite insane, and puts to shame many SF universes).

                Maybe in the final part of SG-1's 10th season, the other 304 using a ZPM will provide a figure, either by dialogue or visual, but it will have to be properly analyzed and taken with a grain of salt at first, before assuming anything wrong.
                The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                  Adding to Ouro's reply and to post here what he discussed about a bit earlier on, I have to say that we don't know how efficient the shield tech on the Daedalus is.
                  As I see it, a ZPM is just damn powerful, significantly more than what the higher figures of Echoes.
                  Even if I'm wrong anyway, the point is that we don't how much of good use the shields make of the ZPM.

                  Say we got two Power Sources.

                  PS A, the by default one, gives you a power of 1 unit of energy per second. Now, let's assume this translates into 5 units of shielding per second.

                  Now, we get got PW B (the ZPM), rare and all. We plug it to the ship's systems and power conduits. PS B has a power of 1,000,000 units of energy per second. The factor between the two power sourcse is 1,000,000.
                  Now, does that mean that the shield now have a yield of 5,000,000 units of shielding per second? (100% efficiency)

                  I believe that 304s shields couldn't even take advantage of a decent percentage of the power provided by a ZPM. The limiting factor being the shield tech, or the power conduits (even if the feat achieved in Echoes is insane and proves that the Daedalus has power conduits which can at least maintain that flux of energy, which is quite insane, and puts to shame many SF universes).

                  Maybe in the final part of SG-1's 10th season, the other 304 using a ZPM will provide a figure, either by dialogue or visual, but it will have to be properly analyzed and taken with a grain of salt at first, before assuming anything wrong.

                  You are indeed correct. I actually hadn't thought all that much about the 304's own ability to deflect some of the energy against its shields.
                  "A witty remark proves nothing" - Voltaire

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Frak, I hate being quoted while my message is full of unfinished sentences, typos and vocabulary redundancy.
                    The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      There's a difference though. In the picture above, the faceplate clearly looks like dried bone, like it's grown out of the skull.
                      So, true, with biotech, you don't know where naturally grown appendages stops and fused parts begins, a bit like a biomechanoid.

                      It's true that Misbegotten had no Wraith wear such a faceplate. But there's another possibility. These Wraith are just so weak and down the chain that they simply don't survive dewraithizer.
                      To be honest, I was under the impression that the big 'human converted' bald Wraith were what the warrior drones looked like when the retrovirus worked. Though why they were bald is another matter.


                      'Hallowed are the children of the Ori. CROWD: Hallowed are we. Hallowed are the Ori.' -

                      'Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the Gods, ships shall be built to carry the warriors out among the stars and we will spread Origin to all the unbelievers. The power of the Ori will be felt far and wide and the wicked shall be vanquished' -


                      Contribute to the Stargate Wiki a source for any information on the Stargate universe from the books, RPG to games and comics.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Can you guys scale the Aurora type/class ships please?

                        Here are a few good images of the entire ship from the model maker:
                        http://www.essencedesignworks.com/Orion.html

                        I think you could if you used that shot where they zoomed into the bridge to use the height of one of the people, measure it to the bridge, and use that to determine the size of the bridge section, then measure the ship using these images to that.

                        What do you think?

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by An-Alteran View Post
                          Can you guys scale the Aurora type/class ships please?

                          Here are a few good images of the entire ship from the model maker:
                          http://www.essencedesignworks.com/Orion.html

                          I think you could if you used that shot where they zoomed into the bridge to use the height of one of the people, measure it to the bridge, and use that to determine the size of the bridge section, then measure the ship using these images to that.

                          What do you think?
                          the Aurora class is over 1km long, this comes from the guy who designed it http://www.essencedesignworks.com/Aroura.html
                          Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

                          Comment


                            #43
                            With wraith cruisers possibly between 500 and 600 m long (based on episode Aurora).
                            I'm really glad that the hiveship lenght has been sort of confirmed twice now since I tried to figure it out.
                            At least, that's probably the very first semi official ship/city dimension we ever get since Stargate exists (I didn't read the books, and I don't even know if they're canon anyway).
                            The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                              There's a difference though. In the picture above, the faceplate clearly looks like dried bone, like it's grown out of the skull.
                              So, true, with biotech, you don't know where naturally grown appendages stops and fused parts begins, a bit like a biomechanoid.

                              It's true that Misbegotten had no Wraith wear such a faceplate. But there's another possibility. These Wraith are just so weak and down the chain that they simply don't survive dewraithizer.



                              Adding to Ouro's reply and to post here what he discussed about a bit earlier on, I have to say that we don't know how efficient the shield tech on the Daedalus is.
                              As I see it, a ZPM is just damn powerful, significantly more than what the higher figures of Echoes.
                              Even if I'm wrong anyway, the point is that we don't how much of good use the shields make of the ZPM.

                              Say we got two Power Sources.

                              PS A, the by default one, gives you a power of 1 unit of energy per second. Now, let's assume this translates into 5 units of shielding per second.

                              Now, we get got PW B (the ZPM), rare and all. We plug it to the ship's systems and power conduits. PS B has a power of 1,000,000 units of energy per second. The factor between the two power sourcse is 1,000,000.
                              Now, does that mean that the shield now have a yield of 5,000,000 units of shielding per second? (100% efficiency)

                              I believe that 304s shields couldn't even take advantage of a decent percentage of the power provided by a ZPM. The limiting factor being the shield tech, or the power conduits (even if the feat achieved in Echoes is insane and proves that the Daedalus has power conduits which can at least maintain that flux of energy, which is quite insane, and puts to shame many SF universes).

                              Maybe in the final part of SG-1's 10th season, the other 304 using a ZPM will provide a figure, either by dialogue or visual, but it will have to be properly analyzed and taken with a grain of salt at first, before assuming anything wrong.
                              I would say that a ZPM has several factors.
                              It can only normally produce X amount of energy.
                              X is very large. But still limited.
                              All the ZPM's energy can be used at once if it is dumped into a power drain that will not overload the ZPM.

                              X is the maximum energy a ZPM can normally produce.
                              U is the energy used.
                              R is the rate it is drawn from.
                              RR is the maximum rate.
                              D is the duration it is used For.
                              C is the total charge.
                              T is the time it takes at the maximum rate it would take to drain the ZPM.

                              So the equation would be something like:
                              X(RR) >/ U(R)
                              With X(T)=C

                              The Daedalus would only be able to pull so much power so fast, at U(R)<X(R).

                              So the ZPMs full provision is not used.

                              Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
                              the Aurora class is over 1km long, this comes from the guy who designed it http://www.essencedesignworks.com/Aroura.html
                              I meant exact measurments.
                              Could you guys?
                              It would be nice to have the measurments.

                              My estimations give a measurment between 1200 and 1300 meters long.
                              380-400 meters wide at the engine, and 310-330 at the wide midpoint section.
                              And around 150-180 meters in height.
                              1.2k-1.3k long.

                              I want a more proffessional oppinion.
                              Last edited by An-Alteran; 15 December 2006, 04:32 PM.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                the darts use a similar tech the same way rings transport people as matter to another set of rings. i think

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