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Thread: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

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  1. #1
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    The following vast accumulation of text you're about to read is the fruit born of numerous discussions between myself and fellow GW member Mr. Oragahn. A lot of this information has appeared on this board before but a lot of it is also new. Rather than have everything spread out all over the place and/or see the same topics rehashed again thread after thread we felt that collecting everything into one thread like this would be of benfit to the tech forum here, and anyone who might have questions that have already been answered in the past.

    The goal of this thread is to provide an in depth description of each aspect of a Wraith hiveship, be it about its technology, life inside it or the command hierarchy. We'll also get into some bits and pieces of other Wraith tech and society as well but we felt it best to focus on the hiveship to start since it's the central point to Wraith society and we know more about it than we do anything else.

    We hope that this thread will serve as a sort of living encyclopedia that documents what we have come to know/believe about hiveships, and some other side bits of Wraith tech, as the series progresses. Participation and discussion of these topics is strongly encouraged. Despite this grand thread of hugeness we're not here to lecture anyone about the right or wrong way to look at this. It's a sci-fi show with a lot of contradicting ifnormation so there's bound to be some differences of opnion. This is good for everyone so long as discussion remains civil, logical, based on canon evidence and aimed at arriving at the most likely or reasonable conclusion as opposed to pushing some sort of pro or anti Wraith agenda.

    If you feel that some portion of what follows doesn't quite sound right to you by all means speak up and articulate why. We're interested in getting a discussion going and fairly confidant that we can justify every conclusion that's made here so if you want to hear more about why we concluded X or Y by all means ask. That said if your complaint is going to ring to the tune of "it's just a TV show" please post in another thread not in a forum dedicated to discussing the fictional science and tech of Stargate. Yes everyone knows it's just a fictional TV show and you're not scoring any sort of cool points by pointing that out to us foolish misguided nerds.

    Ok on with the actual content.

    This is going to be divided up into a series of posts for organizational purposes. the idea is these posts will be edited when new information comes out, someone raises a point that merits changing something, or we all get sick of the font style. There's also going to be a few blank posts at the end of the series I'm about to post. DO NOT BE ALARMED, these are simply there to give space for future information that may need to be added to the main collection at the front as the thread grows. The reasoning behind this should be obvious. People who come to this thread looking for information would rather not have to read how ever many pages when they could instead just read everything condnsed cleanly into the first few posts.

    With that said lets get this show rolling.

  2. #2
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Global description

    The Wraith hiveship is one of the most impressive spaceships seen thus far.
    This giant craft fills both the roles of a warship and a colony. As such, it houses large numbers of Wraith, and holds large quantities of Darts, the Wraith's fighters, as well as an unknown quantity of other craft such as probes and scoutships.

    Dimensions

    The ship looks like a rounded dagger, lenghty and rather flat considering the size ratios.

    Lenght: 10,983.04 m
    Width: 7,906.33 m
    Height: 1,291.39 m

    The sheer size of a hiveship makes it several times bigger than Atlantis.

    A hiveship literally dwarfing the Daedalus.

    Measurements from Allies (1, 2) based on Daedalus' dimensions displayed there.

    Life support

    The artificial atmosphere is recycled and distributed across the entirety of the ship by one main control system located in a room.
    There, CO2 is purified into breathable air. The Wraith do appear to share similar needs to ours.
    That room is located within the main bulk, between the two arms protruding on each side of the ship. The system itself is slightly off-axis on the right.

    Location of the air processor central chamber.

    As a necessity to the way of life the Wraith have been following for millenia since their victory against the Lanteans, they devised statis pods for hibernation between each cullings. Those specialized systems are embeded in the walls and roofs of dedicated rooms, and each one of them houses one Wraith specimen.

    A look at the ceiling, filled with statis pods.

    Power Generation

    What the hiveships get their power from is unknown. But fore sure, the power generation is high enough to let a 11 km long behemoth rotate fast enough in No Man's Land, or to let such a ship leave a planet's gravity.

    Locating the generators is another mystery, but shouldn't be located too far away from the engines.
    They could use a variety of materials, used in different ways. Fusion, fission or matter/antimatter reactions could be what powers those massive behemoths.
    The power requirements are vast. They have to supply the ship's life support, sensors, weapons, hyperdrives and engines, to speak of the most important systems.

    However, it is good to notice that by triggering off chain reactions from the explosion of certain internal systems, notably inside hangar bays filled with darts, it is possible to destroy a hiveship in its entirety, or even vaporize every single inch of its superstructure if the original explosion is already very powerful.
    We have seen that hiveships exploding on their own after severe internal chain reactions, notably in The Siege Part I (season 1), The Hive (season 2) and after a Lantean drone assault in No Man's Land (season 3).

    It is possible that the mysterious blue beam seen in Letters from Pegasus is related to the power sources. It's pure speculation, but hiveships might be able to drain the energy from planets, and store it in massive energy buffers.
    That would rather fit well with the vampiric aspect of the Wraith.

    Another theory is that a hiveship's hull could absorb surrounding energy, notably hyperspace radiations, which tend to enhance explosions to mind blowing scales.


    Locations of interest

    • Queen Throne and its entrance corridor (1, 2, 3, 4).
    • Ceremony hall (1, 2, 3, 4), with one of the two main corridors linked to that room (1).
    • Mess hall (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). Seen in Rising, this is a piece of rest with a table. Stasis pods are also present in this room.
    • Prison cells (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11). The walls are looking like thick webs of organic material which can fold in and out. Though a control panel on the side of these walls enables a manual activation (1), it seems that the Wraith don't even need to press any button.
    • Food chambers, cocoon alcoves (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7). Certainly part of the most numerous rooms to be found on a hiveship, possibly outnumbering the statis rooms themselves.
    • Computer core (1, 2, 3).
    • Personnal quarters (1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Lieutnants, and likely Queens and Keepers, have personnal quarters.
    • Statis pods (1, 2, 3. Triangle statis pods are embedded within the roof of those chambers. Each cell houses a Wraith specimen, which sleeps in a foetal position. How a Wraith is supposed to reach those pods is unknown. Maybe an organic arm stretches down, maybe an anti gravitational field acts as an elevator, or maybe the cavern is in fact a dome, accessible from the otherside of the wall of pods, and covered with staircases and ladders.
    • Command deck (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11). Several consoles can be accessed throughout the whole ship, but only those in the bridge give full control of the ship's main systems. Only most basic functions can be activated by humans, while Wraith gene is a necessity to get the other systems running.
    • Secondary navigation deck (1). Houses three consoles, with a holoprojector in its middle, displaying maps of the galaxy, hyperspace routes and exit points.
    Last edited by Ouroboros; December 9th, 2006 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Sublight propulsion

    The sublight propulsion systems relies on newtonian physics, with the rocket principle in place. The propellant in use there is unknwon.
    There are two racks of four horizontally aligned engines on each side of the stern queue, with the two middle ones being slightly smaller than the two others and being closer to each other. The closer to the center line each thruster is, the closer it is from the stern on the forward axis.

    The engines deliver enough thrust so that they can propel the ship through the accretion disk of a blackhole, with constant acceleration.

    Hiveship in orbit.
    Another view, while the hiveship approaches Atlantis.

    ***Acceleration capability estimation in progress***










    FTL propulsion

    The Wraith ships use hyperdrives as FTL (Faster Than Light) propulsion systems. They are of interstellar class, fast enough to cross large distances withing a small galaxy like Pegasus, but extremely slow when it comes to cross intergalactic voids.
    The hyperdrives are located in vulnerable spots, which can be reached by external flight and destroyed by low yields missiles. There are ventral hyperspace generators, located somewhere near the centre of the ship. Michael informed Sheppard that attacking them would be most effective. Does this mean that there are dorsal ones, but of less importance?
    This would explain why the Wraith choose to flee in Allies - since fighters breached their defense perimeter - prefering to fly to Earth instead of loosing their hyperdrives and being stuck in Pegasus.

    Engines still active while in hyperspace.
    Hiveships entering hyperspace.
    A hiveship leaving hyperspace.


    ***Maximum FTL velocity estimation in progress***

  4. #4
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Weaponry

    Overview

    • "Fireballs"
      - General-purpose direct energy projectiles.
      - Maximum theorical yield (per cannon): 7.7 gigatons.
      - Lower estimaed yield (per cannon): 460 megatons, fired by a damaged hiveship relying on less than 50% of its usual power generation capability.
    • "Falling Stars"
      - Focused and shiny draining projectiles.
      - Lower estimated draining yield (per cannon): 3.125 petatons (3.125 million gigatons), only against Lantean tech shield. Very low DET.


    Detailed description

    Thus far, we have been able to notice the existence of two different types of weapons.

    The main type of weapon, used most of the time thus far, shoots bolts which look like elongated blobs, or blue fireballs.
    They appear to contain hot matter, that can often result into explosions when hitting shields in vacuum.
    It would seem that like many other advanced races, those projectiles, which for unknown reasons, seem to happily ignore gravity, are self contained "bag" of explosive and highly energetic matter.

    A powerful energy bolt. Larger than the Daedalus' height.

    These weapons have been used at great lenghts in late engagements, especially against the Daedalus or other Wraith hiveships.
    Calculations from the bombardment seen in the episode Misbegotten show that the low end yield for each one of these bolt would be about a few gigatons, around 2.8 GT with a hiveship using less than 50% of its power, and therfore 5.6 GT when fully operational.

    In the episode The Hive, two hiveships were exchanging heavy fire in a hurry. The size of the bolts was significantly larger.
    Each bolt blew up large quantities of hull, and the targeting was relatively wide, instead of focusing on one single point at the enemy's hull.
    This is clearly demonstrating the superior yield of these bolts.
    Since these fireballs were dialed up, it was possible to estimate how much energy each one of these bolts would have a yield of 46.8 GT.
    It is not surprising, considering how fast these bolts destroyed the opposite hiveship.

    Two hiveships exchanging fire. Their cannons are dialed up to high levels.

    The reason why the weapons would not be used at such yield may be because they draw too much power, and fragilize systems, which in turn would make firepower estimation rather tricky, though this is pure extrapolation.
    It may just be a question of the crew generally prefering using less power for the cannons, and keep more of it for sudden acceleration and evasive moves.

    The number and location of the cannons is hard to determine. Thus far, we have not seen bolts being fired from the dorsal region of the ship, nor from the stern. Most bolts were fired from the edges and from inside the trenches, covering frontal and broadside firing arcs, and sometimes came from underneath, amidships.

    An example of low power and high velocity setting. The two hiveships are firing a dense barrage of low powered shots in the hope to disable the Daedalus before she raises her shields after jumping out of hyperspace. The velocity of these bolts is rather high.

    The theory is that velocity has a price in terms of energy, and the faster a bolt, the more energy you have to spend.
    The advantage of firing slow bolts might be explained by the idea that this saves more energy for other systems. That extra energy could even be used to enhance the bolt's power. Faster bolts would therefore deal less damage, unless more energy would be allowed to the destructive part of the bolt.

    In space warfare, where all motion is relative, trying to shoot down an enemy with slow bolts is delusional. It can only work if your target isn't located too far, and if it doesn't move that much from your point of view.
    That's why weapons either firing lightspeed beams, straight very focused particles beams at a decent percentage of c, or guided projectiles that can correct their trajectory are the only relevant and efficient weapons in space.

    So it is logical and fortunate that weapons could be modulated to fire faster bolts.

  5. #5
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    weponry cont


    The other type of projectiles, dubbed "falling stars" due to their aspect (bright shiny bolts) and noise, have been used with much more parsimony. These weapons must have their own advantage. The projectiles themselves are relatively faster than their fireballs counterparts (though they can be fired in varians just as slow as the fireballs), and seem to leave smoky trails of matter behind them within the microseconds after firing.
    Yet, when hitting shields in atmosphere, like Atlantis' shield for example, they diffuse over the artificial barrier. Whether be it due to the type of gases they contain, they're still matter based.

    The "falling stars", fired by the Wraith fleet both against Atlantis and against the defense satellite. Notice how after firing fireballs earlier on in their first two engagements with the Daedalus, they switched to that type of weaponry when aiming at the Lantean city.

    The sound they produce is a kind of high pitched whistle.
    An important detail is that in the only two times such weapons were used, the bolts were only fired against Lantean structures: the satellite in Siege Part I, and Atlantis, in Siege Part III. Lantean structures are known for not being particularily strong, often relying on powerful shields.

    It's possible that this weapon exploits a weakness in Lantean technology, like anything related to shields, and it is possible that the Wraith thought that the satellite would be shielded.

    Either all Wraith ships possess the falling star technology, and then, we could theorize that this weapon is particularily relevant against unshielded targets and city-class shields (they have never been used against the Daedalus), or that not all Wraith ships possess that technology, which is fairly possible considering that the Wraith are territorial, and that the most prized secrets about their technology are only known by a handful Keepers.

    The second reason would explain why those weapons weren't used against the Orion in No Man's Land.

    It's logical that these special weapons were used here. Had the shield been finally drained, the last bolts that would have stroke the city would have not vaporized it (supported by evidence from episode Progeny), while the fireballs, with their gigatons of power, would have had in the blink of an eye. One would argue that the Wraith would have not fired the fireballs anywhere near max power, but then it would have been completely pointless firing at the shield at such a power level and ever hope to dent it.

    Though the falling stars do not possess a large amount of energy on their own, especially when looking at the destruction of the satellite (even if the structure was destroyed), they have however proven absolutely devastating against the Lantean shield, draining the sole (planet-busting capable) ZPM powering the whole city at a very fast rate. McKay estimated that the ZPM would be depleted within days, as less than a week.

    This fact supports the theory that these rather low DET weapons are specifically meant to weaken Lantean shields.
    Would this specific weapon prove useful against shield technologies from other races is unknwon, and their lack of use against the Daedalus would seem to argue that they don't even think it's worth the test.

  6. #6
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    weponry cont II

    Last but not least, it is important to point out that hiveships come with efficient targetting computers.

    A demonstration of efficient targetting systems. Despite firing rather slow bolts, which in this case would only really be useful at close range, the hiveships is able to succesfully hit a Daedalus going in circles around the bigger threat at high angular velocities.

    Calculations: fireballs

    This is the part where you can learn how those numbers were obtained.
    Like always, there are many parameters to account for, but as always is science, notably equations, the goal is to try to simplify things, or at least, not make those things more complex than they should be.

    Several sources of observation have been used there.

    The assaults on Atlantis and its satellite in The Siege episodes.
    The dogfight between two hiveships in mid season 2's The Hive.
    The orbital bombardment executed by the captured and crippled hiveship, manned by Sheppard's team, and the attack by another fully operational hiveship coming to rescue Michael's group, in season 3's Misbegotten.

    Misbegotten is used to know the power of the fireballs. One of the best and most reliable ways to do this is to look at the extent of damage done on inert materials. The surface of a random and unhabitable planet would perfectly fit the bill here.
    Luckily, that is exactly what happened.

    We could see that Sheppard ordered McKay to fire at the refugees' camp, on the surface. At several occasions, McKay clearly mentionned the unreliable nature of the targeting system, not knowing if they would even be firing at the right spot.
    The salvos themselves weren't that much spread apart, but a mere difference of a few degress in the firing arc would lead to the impact zone ending several tens of kilometers away from the suited target. At the end of the episode, McKay could not confirm that they had properly hit the zone where the Wraith were located.

    By looking at the width of the explosion occuring at the surface, we could already have an idea of the level of destruction going on.
    By assuming that the targeted planet was Earth-like (a much smaller planet couldn't hold an atmosphere, even less a breathable one), we could know how large the explosions were in comparison.

    A montage, showing the size of the explosions in comparison to Earth. The initial screencap was at a very low resolution. Higher resolutions might make another analysis necessary, and either increase or decrease the figures.

    Using this calculator, we can determine the rough yield of such weapons.

    Wraith weapons would behave in a sufficiently similar way to nuclear strikes, when hitting the surface of a planet. Thus we can determine that producing such large ground fireballs would require the equivalent of 2.8 gigatons of energy.

    As the bombardment occured in a cloudless zone, it's impossible to claim that it's due to a trick of light diffused across cloud layers, and therefore completely irrelevant to any possible lightning bolts.

    With a crippled hiveship able to deliver an average global and minmal yield of 2.8 GT on a planet's surface during a bombardment, with less than 50% of power available for all its systems, a hiveship in good shape could theorically provide twice that amount of energy, at the very least (since we have no proof that they were putting 100% of the power generation into the cannons, and realistically, that is impossible, even more with a crippled ship and an "incompetent" and insufficient crew).
    Since Misbegotten points towards grouped salvos of half a dozen bolts, that's around 0.46 GT (460 MT) each bolt for Shep's piece of junk.

    It seems to take 1.5 seconds to fire a whole salvo. With six bolts over 1.5 seconds, that's four bolts per second.
    Thus 1.84 GT per second.
    This is what the damaged ship controled by Teyla was firing at the planet per second. It is a reliable average value.

    Now, a fully functiunal hiveship could easily double this number by being able to run its reactors near 100%, instead of being limited at less than 50%.
    So we can double the estimated yield, up to normal power levels, and we have a minimal yield of 1.84 GT per second for a fully operational hiveship.

    The enemy hiveship in Misbegotten fired around 5 bolts per second.
    Probably using all power available, it would be firing 4.6 GT per second (using the 460 MT figure from Sheppard' ship, doubled because the enemy ship would try to get rid of its target as fast as possible, thus likely running its reactors at 100%, and multiplied by the number of cannons, five in that case).

    The sequence inside the control room of the captured hiveship lasted 40 seconds, plus 8 more seconds of external view, with the hiveship starting to get seriously damaged and almost ready to blow up.
    Of course, Sheppard and co certainly needed more than 8 seconds to reach the puddle jumper. A hiveship is a big flying barn after all.
    Realistically, the puddle jumper would be sitting in one of the closest jumper bay, and consider the ship's sheer size, we cannot imagine our heroes reaching their vessel and fleeing far enough from the hiveship in less than 12 seconds.

    So the numbers below are called to change, once we will know where the closest landing bay is located to the control room.

    But for the moment, let's round that time to a one minute constant bombardment before destruction. We're absurdly far too conservative here, but nevermind.

    So 60 x 4.6 = 276 GT. Estimation of what was necessary to take down Sheppard's already damaged hiveship, with a rather evenly distributed wall of fire spread over the forward half of the starboard side.

    Misbegotten part 5 of 5, The Hive space battle.

  7. #7
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    **This post is the final organizational place holder to be used for future additions.**

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Three things:
    First you assume that the Wraith use weaker blasts against the Ancient shields because they drain them better.

    I have another idea about why those ships fired different energy blasts at Atlantis:
    The weapons have variable charge levels, and a full charged blast is to owerful, and will overload the weapon. So in continuous fire, they are less usefull and will take longer to drain a ZPM then say the weaker fast firing ones.
    So it is not a matter of using a more effective weapon, but a weapon more effectively over time.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    While at first I thought the Wraith 'male' commander caste used telekinesis on Colonel Sumner in Rising, I think now he just used his own pure strength to send him flying. I think you can also safely say that the 'Hybrids' created by the retrovirus can be added to the caste list as I think one of the interviews Gateworld made had one of the creators say that Micheal is essentially a 'fifth caste'.

    I am a bit surpised that the shapes are 11 km's in length as I always thought they were more along the line of 5 km but I might have been conservative in my thoughts there.

    Was it ever confirmed that the Scoutship in 'Aurora' is the same as the transport ship in 'Allies'? Its a reasonable assumption but not sure if its taken as fact yet. Also I think mention needs to be made about the Wraith Cruisers, the ancient Wraith Supply Ships and the Wraith Computer Virus. In regards to the ships, they look like an amalgamation of mechanical and biological designs since the engines and the hanger bay look a lot more machine-like compared to the blue organic skin of the ship.

    Also I think it needs to be mentioned that the Darts plays another vital role for the Wraith in fleet engagements. Namely, as an interceptor to stop incoming projectiles or drones from hitting the Hiveship. Another point is that while Darts are short ranged, it does seem that they can be enhanced for long 'scouting' roles as was the case when that lone Dart scouted Atlantis before exploding and sending its data back to the Hive ships. Presumably, this enhancement made allowed it to travel under sublight at faster and longer speeds after exiting from a nearby Stargate close to the Lantean System.

    As for Wraith telepathy, I would concur pretty much on what you said though it does seem that now there is a change in it after Teyla's little 'incursion' into the Hivemind since Fords group said that they learnt the Wraith are separating their telepathical communication structure to ensure that vital information is not lost again to outside telepathic 'espionage'. Also that lone Wraith are incapable of summoning their comrades but when combined can actually act as biological boosters as you mentioned with Micheal and his colleagues in their 'ritual'.

    Anyway, missing pieces of technology I think can include the 'solid' holograms the Wraith scientist used when he first made the mistaken of leaving Wraith DNA in humans. There is of course the
    Spoiler:
    telepathic generator showed recently
    and the already mentioned computer virus weapon. There is of course two things mentioned but not seen on screen, one of which is the subspace booster relays that transmit tracking devices to the Hiveships and the 'stronghold' mentioned by the team when under the sway of Lucius in Irresistable though its quite possible that this 'stronghold' was not a fixed based structure but rather a Hiveship that landed.

    If some of this has already been mentioned then please excuse that part.


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  10. #10
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    wow guys i'm impressed with the level of detail here, well done you get green

    i was wondering when this would be posted, i remember Ouroboros mentioned it a while ago...

    i think you've covered everything though
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    My EYES Hurt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Haven't even read anything just scrolled down the damn page!
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  12. #12
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prior_of_the_Ori View Post
    While at first I thought the Wraith 'male' commander caste used telekinesis on Colonel Sumner in Rising, I think now he just used his own pure strength to send him flying.
    I disagree. Sumner is clearly sent flying without the Wraith male dealing any particular powerful punch. In fact, I think he just rises his hands and the human goes flying backwards.

    I think you can also safely say that the 'Hybrids' created by the retrovirus can be added to the caste list as I think one of the interviews Gateworld made had one of the creators say that Micheal is essentially a 'fifth caste'.
    Michael is more an artificial creation than a real caste of wraithized humans or ancients.

    Ouro and I have been talking about how those Wraith display powers that have only been attributed to evolved humans and ancients. Counting the FTL multi LY range mental connection, the Wraith actually evolved pretty fast in that department, and we don't believe that the insect part in them is responsible of this.
    Then comes plenty of theories about where the Wraith really come from, if the ones we see aren't just a subcaste, and if they didn't actually convert Ancients and genetically enhance humans or themselves, etc.

    I am a bit surpised that the shapes are 11 km's in length as I always thought they were more along the line of 5 km but I might have been conservative in my thoughts there.
    The 5 km figure is the one hich was thrown around based on calcs from the schematic seen in Allies. However, that schematic has an oversized Daedalus, and I was plesantly surprized to see that using external shots resulted into a 11 km long hiveship, pretty much what the art director said in some SF magazine one or two months ago when complaining about how there were visual screwups, especially in scalings, and that the hiveships were supposed to be 11 km long.

    Was it ever confirmed that the Scoutship in 'Aurora' is the same as the transport ship in 'Allies'?
    No, but it's the most probable solution thus far.

    Its a reasonable assumption but not sure if its taken as fact yet. Also I think mention needs to be made about the Wraith Cruisers, the ancient Wraith Supply Ships and the Wraith Computer Virus. In regards to the ships, they look like an amalgamation of mechanical and biological designs since the engines and the hanger bay look a lot more machine-like compared to the blue organic skin of the ship.
    We still have to refine the essays, despite the time we've spent on them, but I'm not sure we'll devote a large part to other ships.

    There are missing parts which do exist, since we already talked about, notably regarding the super structure, the use of culling beams as a defense system and the existence of the giant docking arms, plus a whole chapter titled Locations of Interest.
    We'll update all that, but we can't guarantee this to happen ASAP.

    Also I think it needs to be mentioned that the Darts plays another vital role for the Wraith in fleet engagements. Namely, as an interceptor to stop incoming projectiles or drones from hitting the Hiveship. Another point is that while Darts are short ranged, it does seem that they can be enhanced for long 'scouting' roles as was the case when that lone Dart scouted Atlantis before exploding and sending its data back to the Hive ships. Presumably, this enhancement made allowed it to travel under sublight at faster and longer speeds after exiting from a nearby Stargate close to the Lantean System.
    Yeah good points. Those are already present in freshier versions of the essays. We've been pretty much working on some older basis, since I had to move to another city during the following months.

    Anyway, missing pieces of technology I think can include the 'solid' holograms the Wraith scientist used when he first made the mistaken of leaving Wraith DNA in humans.
    I think it's actually very similar to the dart fake canopy. A forcefield of a given colour, though it clearly lacks the very precise recreation of a fake rocky wall.

    There is of course the
    Spoiler:
    telepathic generator showed recently
    and the already mentioned computer virus weapon. There is of course two things mentioned but not seen on screen, one of which is the subspace booster relays that transmit tracking devices to the Hiveships and the 'stronghold' mentioned by the team when under the sway of Lucius in Irresistable though its quite possible that this 'stronghold' was not a fixed based structure but rather a Hiveship that landed.

    If some of this has already been mentioned then please excuse that part.
    Ah, I'm curious about those relay boosters. Where is the reference to be found?

  13. #13
    Major Prior_of_the_Ori's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    I disagree. Sumner is clearly sent flying without the Wraith male dealing any particular powerful punch. In fact, I think he just rises his hands and the human goes flying backwards.
    Which is why I also at first thought it was telekinesis but the lack of seeing it or even mention of it on the show makes me think otherwise. Just checking through Rising part two again and the male Wraith 'commanders' had is capable of touching Sumner but the thing is his back is towards the camera which may be disguising the Wraiths reach. Just letting you know about this, could be wrong here but just thought I should mention it.

    I think it's actually very similar to the dart fake canopy. A forcefield of a given colour, though it clearly lacks the very precise recreation of a fake rocky wall.
    Interesting line of thought there. I always thought they were separate but now that you mention it, it does remind me of the protective 'shield' of the Dart. Though the research lab one was keyed more to allow Wraith DNA to pass through.

    Ah, I'm curious about those relay boosters. Where is the reference to be found?
    I believe they were mentioned in that early season 1 episode when Teyla was using her 'necklace' and it was transmitting to the Wraith. I think they mentioned at that time, the 'relay' stations. So it would mean that Wraith tracking abilities are done so through standard subspace use while communication may be done by the Hivemind.


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  14. #14
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Here we go. Things are starting to get a bit more organized there, so it's time to edit that post, and add the first link to an index which will grow in size as long as the discussion will go on and new points will be made.

    Index

    1. The Wraith Empire's True War Machine (page 4)



  15. #15
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    **This post is a second organizational place holder to be used for future additions.**

  16. #16
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    **This post is a second organizational place holder to be used for future additions.**
    .

  17. #17
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Trying to calculate the energy needed to lift something as big as a hiveship.

    Cruisers can sink, contrary to Atlantis, so that's more than 1030 kg/m³, for the whole structure.

    We are going to assume that the planet seen in Rising is similar to Earth. Gravity, after all, seemed the same. Though this is only one factor (total mass and revolution are important, we're going to make this simple).

    Lenght: 10,983.04 m
    Width: 7,906.33 m
    Height: 1,291.39 m


    Hiveships are officially 11 km long, so this will make the figure slightly conservative.

    For the volume, I took a triangle surface area, and then multiplied it by 2/3 of the ship's height (the thing is relatively brick shaped when seen from the side, but there still are tappered angles and pointy sections).

    V = base * lenght/2 * 2/3 height
    V = 37379379280.7407 m³

    M = V * 1030 kg/m³
    M = 38,500,760,659,162.921 kg

    More than 38.5 billion tons.

    Any object, to escape the surface of Earth, needs to provide enough thrust to counter a gravity of 9.80665 m.s^-2. If you don't manage to surpass the acceleration due to Earth's mass pulling you in, you won't make it.

    Let's just see how the Wraith could maintain their hiveship in balance. On the ground, it's the normal force (ground resistance if you will) that makes sure the hiveship doesn't sink towards the planet's core.

    However, in the air, there's nothing to provide the necessary counter acceleration safe drives, no matter what they are. We need to get at least 1g out of the engines. That is, 9.80665 m.s^-2.

    So that's a minimal velocity of 9.80665 m/s.

    E = 1/2.m.v²
    E = 1,851,316,472,725,105.23889770696125 J
    E = 442.47 KT.

    Power = 442.47 KT/s.

    This is based on a volumetric mass equal to that of water, at the surface of the ocean. It's also only calculated to keep the ship hovering above the ground, not to make it reach space.

    A higher mass, a real net acceleration and a timeframe would provide greater numbers, but at least, we know that the ship is be able to generate that much energy.

    Iron has an approximative density of 7,000 kg/m³. Lead has a density of 11,340 kg/m³.
    The hiveships is covered with armour that can withstand the powerful explosion of nukes at point blank range, so much at that most of the damage is actually internal, and related to organic systems.
    In the absence of shields, either this is explained by extremely dense materials, or by the ability to channel energies extremely efficiently and deal with them after hand (storage, recycling or radiation).

  18. #18
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    That's funny, "how much energy would it take for a hiveship to reach escape velocity anyway" was one of the first things I had planned to bring up with you when you cleaned out your box over at SSD.

    So now we know that a hive is producing almost 30 Hiroshimas per second just when idling. I wonder how many amraams that would work out to be.

  19. #19
    Captain Lord batchi ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Trying to calculate the energy needed to lift something as big as a hiveship.

    Cruisers can sink, contrary to Atlantis, so that's more than 1030 kg/m³, for the whole structure.

    We are going to assume that the planet seen in Rising is similar to Earth. Gravity, after all, seemed the same. Though this is only one factor (total mass and revolution are important, we're going to make this simple).

    Lenght: 10,983.04 m
    Width: 7,906.33 m
    Height: 1,291.39 m


    Hiveships are officially 11 km long, so this will make the figure slightly conservative.

    For the volume, I took a triangle surface area, and then multiplied it by 2/3 of the ship's height (the thing is relatively brick shaped when seen from the side, but there still are tappered angles and pointy sections).

    V = base * lenght/2 * 2/3 height
    V = 37379379280.7407 m³

    M = V * 1030 kg/m³
    M = 38,500,760,659,162.921 kg

    More than 38.5 billion tons.

    Any object, to escape the surface of Earth, needs to provide enough thrust to counter a gravity of 9.80665 m.s^-2. If you don't manage to surpass the acceleration due to Earth's mass pulling you in, you won't make it.

    Let's just see how the Wraith could maintain their hiveship in balance. On the ground, it's the normal force (ground resistance if you will) that makes sure the hiveship doesn't sink towards the planet's core.

    However, in the air, there's nothing to provide the necessary counter acceleration safe drives, no matter what they are. We need to get at least 1g out of the engines. That is, 9.80665 m.s^-2.

    So that's a minimal velocity of 9.80665 m/s.

    E = 1/2.m.v²
    E = 1,851,316,472,725,105.23889770696125 J
    E = 442.47 KT.

    Power = 442.47 KT/s.

    This is based on a volumetric mass equal to that of water, at the surface of the ocean. It's also only calculated to keep the ship hovering above the ground, not to make it reach space.

    A higher mass, a real net acceleration and a timeframe would provide greater numbers, but at least, we know that the ship is be able to generate that much energy.

    Iron has an approximative density of 7,000 kg/m³. Lead has a density of 11,340 kg/m³.
    The hiveships is covered with armour that can withstand the powerful explosion of nukes at point blank range, so much at that most of the damage is actually internal, and related to organic systems.
    In the absence of shields, either this is explained by extremely dense materials, or by the ability to channel energies extremely efficiently and deal with them after hand (storage, recycling or radiation).
    You know I actually understood some of that I hate physics.

    But for the volume, remember there is a whole section in the middle of the ship that is open. And the Dedy can just fit inside of it. I think we saw it in No Mans Land.

    And to me it would make sense to have a material for the armor to be a material that is similar to Kevlar so it can absorb the impact. But I don't really understand yet how it works so don't look to much into it.
    Last edited by Lord batchi ball; October 22nd, 2007 at 03:16 PM.

  20. #20
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything you ever wanted to know about Hiveships/Wraith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alx View Post
    No we cant!!!!

    WE CANT SCALE ANYTHING IN SG CORRECTLY
    as the people behind the cgi and animations have never had a set scale for anything every ep is diffrent from another and there will never be a consensis on this subject CLEARLY the ships in Stargate SG1 SGA and SGU can not be scaled due to the CGI teams inapt ability to stick to scale its that simple people.
    Once in a while, a guy behind his desk respects a proper scale, and his boss doesn't slam the door ordering him to make X ship bigger just to look moar a'some.

    For example, Allies is quite exceptionally good, as far as the ratio between a hiveship and the Daedalus is concerned, since it works very well. You can see this in the first posts on page 1 of this thread.
    That said, isn't it the same episode where a Wraith corvette is escorted by two F-302s? Because in that sequence, Atlantis was terribly small.
    Besides, people often think of this schematic view, which was also shown in Allies I think. So the real view of the ships didn't even correspond to the schematic scales.
    Sometimes, there are true scaling horrors. In some old posts on TheScifiWorld board, I recall Wes Sargent and Bruce Woloshyn from Rainmaker commented on the issues of having several studios, working sometimes on the same episode, working on the same ships, scenery, and redoing other models, scaling and assembling the pictures in some particular way which may not exactly be what one team would have gone with. Frankly, I couldn't tell who from Rainmaker, Imagine Engine or the other studios that intervened in the VFX production at times is really responsible for most of the scaling issues. Each show, SG-1, SGA, etc. has a visual effects producer (supervises stuff) who would have pointed out such things if they mattered, but logically, in TV SF, since all ships have to fit inside the screen at once, so proper scales are only coming in a distant second place.
    Still, Rainmaker made most of the original models for both shows, so the internal inconsistency could come from them as well. That's not to put into question the impressive quality of the models themselves, though.
    But can you imagine the Executor in Star Wars being shrunk just because all other ships would look too small, and then from sequence to sequence, changing size, sometimes down to half its original length when first seen?
    Well, that's what happened in Camelot, or in Be All My Sins Remember'd. Hiveships became just as long as the Aurorags, which themselves seemed to have shrunk copiously when you look at the F-302s and Darts flying close to them.
    Atlantis was another regular case of horrible scaling. Originally Bruce considered that Atlantis height was between 325 and 350 meters high, and the length 1.3 km. He had those comments removed though.
    Suddenly, it seems they realized that they needed to show a city size fitting with something in the 3.x km wide range, like for example in the exploding tumor episode (Sunday), with McKay on the edge of a pier. However, they have never corrected the gateroom balcony, which is totally oversized.




    Enemy at the Gates featured a properly scaled hiveship, even if that one was special. Which is unfortunate, because I'm sure fans of the ~5 km scaling will say the super hiveship was that big because of the ZPM, so they managed to grow a 11 km beast.
    Never mind that certain parts of a hiveship certainly don't look like they're grown, but built. It's hard to swallow that these structures can be upscaled arbitrarily.

    As for the official hive ship length, it was first described in a post in the Scifiworld forums, which are now closed.
    Here's a quotation from the original message:

    The original Wraith Hive ships (at over 11 kilometers in length) were created in LightWave. The design, based on production art by James Robbins for the pilot, was done by my good friend (and lead 3D animator), Wes Sargent.
    It was confirmed in the october (or november?) issue the Stargate Official Magazine, 2006 perhaps. Can't tell, I've never ever read one myself.

    They once had a spaceship chart, which showed another original hive ship model as 10,800 feet long. That's 3291.84 meters. Amusingly, if you're a bit imaginative, you can see where the 11 km length comes from.
    The Aurora wasn't even properly designed, and the Daedalus was given a length of 1050', or 320.04 meters.
    A length of 320 meters wasn't stupid at first, since the biggest modern US super carriers are roughly that long. But they're also extremely cramped. When you look at the nacelles of a 304, you realize that there's plenty of space, and that if you project the real length of the ship based on the width of the nacelle runway, you realize that a couple hundred meters are missing and would make more sense.
    I find those figures logical and correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaZ, Jul 26th 2005, 6:26am
    Studying a schematic behind Hemoid, the D's width is half it's lenght. 82mm long, 43mm wide, side hangers 23mm long x 8mm wide, flatdeck 40mm long x 27mm wide incl the side ext, powercore 25mm long, nose overall 16mm wide, nose main 9mm wide, hanger 6mm wide, 8mm long, main sublight engines 30mm long. Using a ratio of 1mm = 18 feet from the hanger dimension, we get + or - 10% ;

    Lenght 1475 feet
    Beam overall 775 feet
    Height exc antenna 190 feet
    Central hull width 160 feet
    Hull width over nose extensions 290 feet
    Flatdeck lenght overall 720 feet
    Flatdeck width overall including angled sides 485 feet
    Hanger side pods overall lenght 415 feet
    Hanger side pods overall width 145 feet
    Hanger internal lenght 240 feet
    Hanger internal width 140 feet
    Hanger internal height 30 feet
    Hanger door width 95 feet
    Ion engines lenght 560 feet (from nozzile to powercore)

    Okay, it seems rather large. I used 1mm to 25 feet to start with by using the width of the hanger door from the schematic, but it was not a clear shot and very small, making the dimensions of the ship too big, so I went back to the shots of the bay door from the front to get a rough ship's beam, then worked off that to find a better ratio to use. I got a width overall of about 750 to 800 feet from a external shot taken from the front at a slight angle where the hanger doors are in veiw. But most of the dimensions are from what is behind on the situation display where in 2.2 Hermoid asks "if I may be so bold, but what are we looking for". If I use a ratio of less than 18 foot to the mm, the ship will be smaller, but also the hangers, and then they will not match the cavenous spaces shown in 2.2, believe me, they are hugh inside.

    Hmm, I just saw a Prometheus situation display behind Colonel Caldwell when he was being told that Munro's death may not have been an accident by the doctor.
    Some official length for a 304 was 220 meters. Right :/

    That made a length of 449.58 meters for the Daedalus, and the external straffing shots from Allies fit with the corresponding width. My overall result for the hive ship length was 10,983.04 m.
    11 km, simply put.

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