Torchwood Episode Discussion (Spoilers for all eps aired in the UK)

[ShadowMaat]

They were routinely using alien technology, but not necessarily that technology in particular. He wouldn't necessarily have had to smuggle it home if he had been using it regularly.

I figured he'd smuggled it home at some earlier date and took it along whenever he felt the itch. But even if it was the first time and even if he didn't go through with it, the intent was still there. If the boyfriend hadn't come along, he would have had sex with that woman.

Sorry, but I don't find non-con sex funny. And I don't think I'm overreacting or that I need to lighten up and I'd appreciate it if my opinion was respected, not dismissed, no matter how much some may disagree with me.

[Toresica]

^^ I agree with that part.


I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to dismiss your idea... just trying to discuss.

[ShadowMaat]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to dismiss your idea... just trying to discuss.

You? No, you didn't.

Debates are good for the soul.

[jenks]

Sorry, but I don't find non-con sex funny. And I don't think I'm overreacting or that I need to lighten up and I'd appreciate it if my opinion was respected, not dismissed, no matter how much some may disagree with me.

But it's OK for you to red someone else for their opinion?

[ShadowMaat]

But it's OK for you to red someone elses opinion?

When I feel that it's being disrespectful? Yes. But then again, why does there have to be a "reason" for a red? I've gotten plenty of negs just for being me. Or for daring to neg someone else. *shrug* Your attitude offended me, I negged you for it. That simple.

Me? I'm more than happy to discuss multiple points of view, but when someone starts off by implying that there's something wrong with my opinion and continues to act as if I'm "overreacting" then I find it a bit difficult to maintain an open mind about the subject... and the person.

I dislike Owen. I think that he is either a rapist or an attempted rapist and while I could understand the joke the writers intended and can see how some might find it humorous, I don't share that particular sense of fun. I hope the character gets his come-uppance and soon.

[Easter Lily]

Caught the first episode... not too bad... could have been worse from all the early mumblings. I'm getting a bit of deja vu from RTD lately... Body snatching in New Earth and now the aphrodisiac spray. Wonder if the man watches SGA in his spare time.
It was pretty much a set up episode and a couple of interesting twists at the end but I felt that the episode was somewhat rushed at the end. Overall, a decent start if a little talky.

[scarimor]

Just seems to me people are being a little too over sensative, its only a bit of fun imo...

The date rape wasn't meant to be seen as amusing. It was portrayed as an abuse of tech and privilege, and the strong implication was that he'd done it before. The guy is a lech, obviously. He used the alien drug to get off with a woman because he can't get one another way, and he used it to get off with her boyfriend just to stop the boyfriend objecting. Then in the next episode we have him sitting and gawping at two women snogging instead of drawing his colleagues' attention to a serious problem with a lethal alien.

Previously, of course, the woman abusing tech was going round murdering people. Rapists and murderers.

This seems to be lost on a few people. Gwen is the girl next door searchlight who comes in and draws Torchwood's attention to what they've become - "beyond the United Nations" etc. and outside the law means power and secrecy without accountability, so inevitably corrupting. You don't realise how far you've gone until it's too late.

Remember how shocked Gwen was to learn that they weren't even trying to identify the killer in the first episode? And the killer turned out to be one of them. Not only were they not a solution to any problem, they were far worse than useless: they were the problem.

If rape is funny - if it can ever be perceived as "a bit of fun", think twice. Perhaps the writer is deliberately exposing your sensibilities as wanting.

[Reefgirl]

Just seems to me people are being a little too over sensative, its only a bit of fun imo...

That is extremely tasteless, you've obviously never been followed home by some guy who wouldn't take no for an answer or had to fight off some lout who thought he was God's Gift

[jonno]

Am I the only one who thinks people are overreacting? I'd like to hear some comments on this from the writers, I honestly don't think they were trying to provoke this type of reaction (same with the stargate ones for a certain ep)... I mean, its just a bit of fun and I seriously doubt the majority of viewers would get so wound up about this or even take much notice, but die hard Sci-Fi fans to seem to go over every little detail

Except that's just the point - this show isn't SUPPOSED to be 'just a bit of fun'. The problem is, people (however unwittingly), still go into this with Dr. Who in mind - still with that kind of, bubbling along on the surface happy go-lucky feel of that show (i admit i did that myself - i didn't register it as rape til i read it here). Torchwood however, is deeper - it's dark, gritty ... almost the exact opposite of a sci-fi show to Who. Yes - there'll still be the odd bit of humour here and there, but overall, it's supposed to make you think deeper. The character's unlike the Dr and Rose ARE flawed, deeply. That's the whole point. And it's also why te DR. suppossedly will never appear on Torchwood - his character wouldn't fit.

[ShadowMaat]

I think part of the reason Jack had Gwen join Torchwood was to keep them all human. Didn't he even say as much? She's there because she can still think- and emote- on a human level. The others seem to be in it for themselves (or at least have become preoccupied with their own issues) but Gwen's the one who thinks of the victims, of the people who are being affected by what Torchwood does. She's a wide-eyed reality check and hopefully she's gonna help ground the others. Barring Owen, of course.

I think Jack is the one who needs her the most (another reason to bring her in), especially since he isn't entirely human anymore and he's basically living in the past. Hard to connect with people in a situation like that. Hopefully he'll regain some of the sense of fun he had in Doctor Who.

[BC - 303]

I do think Owen isnt supose to be liked, yet.
Hes going to be betrayed as this stupid guy who was a one track mind (where as normal guys can think of 2 or MABEY 3 things, if lucky, trust me i am one).
I expect a redemption thing being done later in the series.

[Pitry]

The date rape wasn't meant to be seen as amusing. It was portrayed as an abuse of tech and privilege, and the strong implication was that he'd done it before. The guy is a lech, obviously. He used the alien drug to get off with a woman because he can't get one another way, and he used it to get off with her boyfriend just to stop the boyfriend objecting. Then in the next episode we have him sitting and gawping at two women snogging instead of drawing his colleagues' attention to a serious problem with a lethal alien.

Previously, of course, the woman abusing tech was going round murdering people. Rapists and murderers.

This seems to be lost on a few people. Gwen is the girl next door searchlight who comes in and draws Torchwood's attention to what they've become - "beyond the United Nations" etc. and outside the law means power and secrecy without accountability, so inevitably corrupting. You don't realise how far you've gone until it's too late.

Remember how shocked Gwen was to learn that they weren't even trying to identify the killer in the first episode? And the killer turned out to be one of them. Not only were they not a solution to any problem, they were far worse than useless: they were the problem.

If rape is funny - if it can ever be perceived as "a bit of fun", think twice. Perhaps the writer is deliberately exposing your sensibilities as wanting.

As been said before, isn't that exactly the point? They weer all abusing the techonology. Which is why I don't think we're particularily supposed to dislike Owen. Suzie was murdering people, but the scene to explain what her feelings about all of this were ambiguous, showing the viewers her side of the story, as well as the wrongs she did. You don't come out of the episode feelign she's a horrible murderer, in some way you migth even sympathise her, even if just a little bit. What Toshiko did was just as moraly wrong as Owen or Suzie, just the outcome wasn't as horrid.
Yet.
She got lucky.

I see this much more as the metaphore on people abusing technology rather than having one fo the main characters as an evil rapist.

Except that's just the point - this show isn't SUPPOSED to be 'just a bit of fun'. The problem is, people (however unwittingly), still go into this with Dr. Who in mind - still with that kind of, bubbling along on the surface happy go-lucky feel of that show (i admit i did that myself - i didn't register it as rape til i read it here). Torchwood however, is deeper - it's dark, gritty ... almost the exact opposite of a sci-fi show to Who. Yes - there'll still be the odd bit of humour here and there, but overall, it's supposed to make you think deeper. The character's unlike the Dr and Rose ARE flawed, deeply. That's the whole point. And it's also why te DR. suppossedly will never appear on Torchwood - his character wouldn't fit.

Interesting. I odn't get a "happy go lucky" feeling from Doctor Who. On the surface, yes. But if you try and delve deeper, it can be quite depressing. I also have to say I think both th eDoctor and Rose were very far from perfect (and TBH, I'd love to see the Doctor on Torchwood - much more than Jack on Doctor Who. he potential for interesting storyline and moments is much bigger that way... IMHO )

[jenks]

Except that's just the point - this show isn't SUPPOSED to be 'just a bit of fun'.

Maybe fun wasn't the best word I could of used, but I still think it was done in quite a light hearted way, even if it was supposed show abuse of technology I still don't think the writers were trying to provoke the sort of reaction a lot of people are having to it...

[Pitry]

Maybe fun wasn't the best word I could of used, but I still think it was done in quite a light hearted way, even if it was supposed show abuse of technology I still don't think the writers were trying to provoke the sort of reaction a lot of people are having to it...

To this I'd agree. The point - the way I see it, at any rate - wasn't to make people hate Owen - what's the point of purposely causing one of the main characters to be hated from day 1? - but to hint that whatever level this is done, whether Owen, Susie or Toshiko, we're all likely to fall, one way or the other.

It is the harder to digest view, however, so I'm not surprised people are reacting violently.

[jonno]

Interesting. I odn't get a "happy go lucky" feeling from Doctor Who. On the surface, yes. But if you try and delve deeper, it can be quite depressing. I also have to say I think both th eDoctor and Rose were very far from perfect (and TBH, I'd love to see the Doctor on Torchwood - much more than Jack on Doctor Who. he potential for interesting storyline and moments is much bigger that way... IMHO )

Perhaps i should have added in 'relatively speaking'

Now, admittedly, i haven't caught up on all of Who yet, and so haven't really managed to delve deeper - but i'd still argue it's a more cheerful type of show.

And OK, so the Dr and Rose may not be perfect. But they're more heroic - they're definitely playing on the right side - they're good - they have definite morals (

Spoiler:

take the Christmas invasion Sycorrax ship destruction and the Dr's objection to it,for example

). They are the heroes.

The Torchwood team, with the exception of the newbie have lost that. Yes they're protecting Earth ... but they don't worry about who they hurt along the way.

[Madeleine]

I loved this. I found it slow, but if slow is done well it can be better than fast & frenetic . The atmosphere of ordinary Cardiff and the strangeness of torchwood were built up perfectly. Not all of the characters were showcased much, but those who were got a good intro.

Gwen is sweet, and tough but not hard. If she's the protagonist of the show, even if Jack's the star, I think it'll be a good thing.

The opening sequence was quite shocking. After Torchwood London seemed so savvy and directed, to see the Cardiff gang - who later turned out to be the sum total of torchwood3 - squabbling about whether or not they should tell a dead guy he's dead and about their previous failure, making it all seem so make-it-up-as-we-go, it was a surprise. And they never thought ot ask the guy if he had a message for his mum and dad. Even Jack, who thought to ask his name, only did it to improve the guy's focus on the next question, the one about what you see when you die . Oh boy do they need someone like Gwen.

I liked the new more serious Jack. I was stunned by his resurrection. It explains the odd question to the dead fella. Like shadowmaat said, it's a cunning upfront way to deal with the You Know We Aren't About To Kill The Star syndrome.

I liked Ianto and Tech Girl. Hope they get more to do later.

Owen made a good first impression. Pizzas for torchwood .

Pity he turned into a (would-be?) rapist. He'll never get back to the post-pizza/pre-spray level of niceness I'd given him, ever. I dunno if he was calling "TAXI! get me out of here while these two are distracted by bickering" or "TAXI! get me to where I can get these two nekkid!" but either way, he's slime. I can't make excuses. He knew she wasn't interested. I'm almost glad it was so clear cut that he's a git - if there *were* excuses I'd feel more worried about the morality of watching a guy taking advantage for entertainment. But this is so obviously WRONG. Owen HAS to get some sort of payback/comeuppance eventualy. Like Scarimor says, no way can we be SUPPOSED to like that creep.

I suspect the reason we saw him with the spray and thingybob with her book-reader was to distract from Susie with her glove. At the time, I thought it was solely a counterpoint to Jack saying that the tech never left the office, showing that they all applied the "unless I really want to" caveat to rules. The girls were interested in the tecih for its own sake, Owen was an exploitative sod, HE was the one we thought most poorly of, we had no cause to indict Sophie as the murderer.

It was a superb scene where Susie revealed herself. A true twisty turny surprise. Props to indira varma, and a pity she's gone now (I assume that all her character's profiling as a regular in the press was a clever and effective ruse) but I think that was one stunning piece of acting.

I didn't mind the 'adult' content. The language was fairly tame; if you watch Prime Suspect or Green Wing or if you listen to teenagers on busses you hear far worse all the time. The tone was about right. Stuff like the black comedy of the cleaner and the weevil, and the sudden change to horror when he got attacked was reminiscent of Buffy's genre-hopping.

The bit that most intrigues me most was about Torchwood4. In Babylon 5 one of the best threads of the intricate plot was that B1, B2 and B3 had all been sabotaged before completion, B5 was the first and last of the active stations, and B4 had disappeared without a trace the day before going operational. But it was a big, portentions thing whenever anyone said so, it was signposted as a big big deal. (The payoff happenned to be really good, btw.) The fact that Torchwood4 was missing was given as much significance by Jack as if a coffee cup had gone astray. But it must mean something, right? I hope it turns out to be good.

[Madeleine]

Not so good as last week, but still entertaining and with a few enjoyable hints about what sort of things are to come. No pun intended.

I found the adult tone fine last week, but this week it was annoying. I mean, people saying swearwords and mentioning sex is pretty ordinary in RL, but this wasn't just making the show seem like it's in a realistic Cardiff, it had a plot that was all about orgasms. This early on in the show, it has an air of just being about orgasms for the sake of being adult. I hope they've got that out of their systems; a little sex driving one of the plots won't hurt, but if it happens too often it'll feel cheap. On the other hand, if a few weeks go by without gratuitous sex fiends being the villain of the week, it'll redeem this ep.

Poor Gwen, her police pals are going to be distanced from her, and she's finding her bf dull. She's there to keep torchwood human and grounded, but she's already started to lose part of her anchor to the everyday world.

Owen was still a sleaze, but in a comic way . His colleagues seem to know he's a sleaze, although I doubt they know the extent. I can handle him being funny sleazy guy as long as eventually he gets seriously pounded for a piece of sleaziness too many. I can wait.

Jack cares about the Doctor's hand! Why?

Ianto, Tech Lass, still good, still minor. More of her please. I think he's effective as a background character, much as I like him.

And they all know nothing about Jack. I think that was a subtle reminder for us that we know little more about him ourselves.

The series shows lots of promise.

[Darkstar]

The series does show a huge amount of promise, the idea is sound, the idea worked in the secret organisation regard in Dr Who, it's very likely to believe that if it was real (Who know's) a secret organisation would work to keep alien technology and use it to defend their own planet and technology, it's shamefully human nature through and through.

I do like the mystery of the show, the temporal rift that goes somewhere we haven't seen, the little things in there that parralel Dr Who, I have to say it is a bit weird to have wached the show in all of it's adult content when so much of it feels very charmingly and inocently Dr who-ish.

I for one think it shows promise, if the sex and maybe some of the unessesary swearing was swept into that rift then I'm sure many fans of Dr who, who are adults and like me have no shame in having watched Dr who that is aimed moslty at the younger audience will grow to like the show, the second episode of series one was not nice, I have to say, no matter how many times I watch that it feels dreadful and an episode I do not like, lets hope this sunday night will give us not a single reminder of that shakey episode, and the show moves on from there.

[scarimor]

... I have to say it is a bit weird to have wached the show in all of it's adult content when so much of it feels very charmingly and inocently Dr who-ish.

That juxtaposition of form and content is throwing people, and it's so significant imo. I'm just a bit worried that they won't be able to sustain it. I hope they do.

[knowles2]

I thought the two episode was alright. I think the episodes brought up a lot of questions, where is torchwood four, where does time rift goes. Where do them aliens come from. Who is jack boss and how did he join torchwood and get charge of their Cardiff operations. I think unlike other series the two episodes created a lot of opertunities and questions for the future.

Their is a lot of growth to the series and a lot questions to answer. This series got lot of space to grow into.

Personally I did not mind the sex and swearing, personally I thought it made it more realistic and different to most other sci fi series on tv at the moment. I think they should keep their style and may be decrease the amount sex scenes, but certainly may be show different kind of adult content, more violence.
Introduce more scifi content to the series. If I was rate the series out of ten then i would give it a 7 and with a lot
room to grow I am sure that the rating will increase.

Also take some of the doctor comical style out of it. Also they should explain why they are in such a run down facility compare to torchwood in London.