Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Smor is great and can totally make sense if a twisted "Genetic Variety" way

Sam and basically anyone she doesn't get teenage over makes so much more sense than Sam/Jack. as I've said before, it's a matter of the chemistry being natural and friendly instead of tense and with a lack of dietary fiber. There's a reason there are Cam/Sam Shippers, it's because they had FUN together and had a very light friendship that could get into that 'teasing' mode that's oh so obviously flirting

Sam/Jack was just so strained, so forced, it never came over as natural, a normal progression for the characters or overall SG1 plot. Too formulaic, too cliché, too bolted on because the show 'needed a romance' according to SF Action/Adventure writing 101.

The pants joke for instance Would Sam have ever made that joke to Jack? Instead Jack makes a joke about Sam getting drunk and taking off her...

In many ways, i believe its an issue of power balance. Sam is everyone else's 'equal' even if she's their superior officer because of hte way she leads. you see this exceptionally in SGA where she dives into the muck just like they do. Look at "Trio" and how Sheppard really doesn't want to negotiate, Sam understands that it's not his forte, so she takes over for him.

I'm not saying Jack is a bad leader either, but he's a different kind of leader. There's a clear line between Jack and everyone else because of his responsibilities and job and 'baggage'

Watching Sam's growth as a leader was a strong point for the show, I would have loved to see more of Jack mentoring her, much more innovative and original than the tired effort at a relationship we got.

Nothing can come between Sam and her laptop. Except perhaps Sam's P-90.

I liked the Sam and Cam dynamic, although I never saw it as anything more than friends and service buddies. There was a nice, relaxed vibe between them, unlike ... yeah, well, you know where I'm going with this.

Interesting points about the difference in Sam and Jack's leadership styles. I never watched SGA and I'm not enough of a Sam fan for her transfer to the series to drag me over to watch, so I really can't comment on her leadership skills.

But Jack was clearly the boss. He was written that way from the start, whereas Sam rose through the ranks; maybe that affects how you are with those with whom you were once on a par and colours your leadership style. Jack was always in charge of his team. His role was clearly delineated. (Yes, I know Jack must have risen through the ranks, too, but we never saw that. We were presented with him as Colonel. Sam had to get there as the show progressed).

And, regarding the power balance issue, Jack was Sam's boss. He never stopped being Sam's boss, even if/when (I'm not convinced) he was out of her CoC. It was never a meeting of equals, even though I'm sure they respected each other's professional abilities. It was a nice non-shippy moment between them in SGU over the loss of the pilots; Jack understood and empathised. Professional chemistry and understanding? Yes. Personal? ... never saw it.

The power thing isn't the hot spot for me that I know it is for you, but it's still there, yet another underlying reason, one of so, so many, why S/J was a such a train wreck and didn't work, didn't add anything positive to SG1.

As a side note, interesting, too, that the crossover of SG1 characters to SGU didn't give a hike in the ratings. Jack and Daniel didn't do it and the Sam and Jack ep was the lowest rated of the entire season, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't pay too much attention to SGU. SGU is its own animal and will stand or fall on its own merits, I guess. Even the alleged appeal of the mighty OTP *cough* didn't pull in the viewers. (Or maybe viewers just don't care anymore, and the new ones have no reason to). Anyway, SGU is for other threads.

On topic: Jack/Sam ... still not a fan.

Still not seen SGU, and now I've got Firefly to play with, so many new pretties to play with, I'll be in my bunk...

FF

[jckfan55]

Watching Sam's growth as a leader was a strong point for the show, I would have loved to see more of Jack mentoring her, much more innovative and original than the tired effort at a relationship we got.

I think there was a sense that Sam was absorbing & learning from O'Neill, but it would have been nice to see some comments along those lines. Even Jack saying to someone, "You know Carter could have her own team" or something.

Certainly there could have been opportunities for addressing mentoring/Sam's maturing as a leader in S8 when Sam took over SG1 (at least officially--we didn't *see* her leading the team much. ) Sam consulting with him on some decision or something.

I didn't like the way they handled it in Zero Hour. Although at the end he compliments the way she handled the ambush, early on he sends another team along (which could have been fine--except they play it for the "does he have confidence in me?" angle) I always thought What's up with that?

We did get Sam leading on earth a couple of times when RDA was taking time off. But not Sam out in the field. In IGTBK, Jack comes in and takes over. I could see why since it was a Maybourne ep & they always liked the Jack/Maybourne stuff, but still.

[Frostfox]

I think there was a sense that Sam was absorbing & learning from O'Neill, but it would have been nice to see some comments along those lines. Even Jack saying to someone, "You know Carter could have her own team" or something.

Certainly there could have been opportunities for addressing mentoring/Sam's maturing as a leader in S8 when Sam took over SG1 (at least officially--we didn't *see* her leading the team much. ) Sam consulting with him on some decision or something.

I didn't like the way they handled it in Zero Hour. Although at the end he compliments the way she handled the ambush, early on he sends another team along (which could have been fine--except they play it for the "does he have confidence in me?" angle) I always thought What's up with that?

We did get Sam leading on earth a couple of times when RDA was taking time off. But not Sam out in the field. In IGTBK, Jack comes in and takes over. I could see why since it was a Maybourne ep & they always liked the Jack/Maybourne stuff, but still.

Exactly, and they didn't need to labour or make it a huge plot point, subtle lines like that work even better. Zero Hour ticked me off too. And the worse of it being, TPTB didn't seem to be aware that they had done it (undermined Sam's command). The worse was the pilots in Fragile Balance (mocking Sam and obeying Jack as a teenage boy - I think I threw something at the screen in frustration). But the subtle anti-Sam misogyny showed up again and again and they just didn't see what they were doing to the character or how irritating it was, at least the 'organs on the inside' line was blatant enough to be ridiculed.

Of course, Sam/Jack plays neatly into the stereotyping of Sam and the inherent misogyny involved. Where would she be without her man? Sidelined in seasons 9 & 10, that's where. Because when you've killed off or removed all her other interesting plot lines, Jack is all that remains. And, of course, it’s true love, so what else matters.

FF

[Aragon101]

Exactly, and they didn't need to labour or make it a huge plot point, subtle lines like that work even better. Zero Hour ticked me off too. And the worse of it being, TPTB didn't seem to be aware that they had done it (undermined Sam's command). The worse was the pilots in Fragile Balance (mocking Sam and obeying Jack as a teenage boy - I think I threw something at the screen in frustration). But the subtle anti-Sam misogyny showed up again and again and they just didn't see what they were doing to the character or how irritating it was, at least the 'organs on the inside' line was blatant enough to be ridiculed.

Of course, Sam/Jack plays neatly into the stereotyping of Sam and the inherent misogyny involved. Where would she be without her man? Sidelined in seasons 9 & 10, that's where. Because when you've killed off or removed all her other interesting plot lines, Jack is all that remains. And, of course, it’s true love, so what else matters.

FF

*Insert long winded post about misogyny in SG, TPTB living vicariously, race issues, and the destruction of Sam for a sappy romance.*

What? I have to go to work but we all know what i'd have said anyway

[jckfan55]

: And the worse of it being, TPTB didn't seem to be aware that they had done it (undermined Sam's command). The worse was the pilots in Fragile Balance (mocking Sam and obeying Jack as a teenage boy - I think I threw something at the screen in frustration). But the subtle anti-Sam misogyny showed up again and again and they just didn't see what they were doing to the character or how irritating it was, at least the 'organs on the inside' line was blatant enough to be ridiculed.

FF

Exactly. I think them not realizing (and then admitting) the issue was doubly infuriating. I'm trying to think of when Jack undermined Daniel *publicly*, for instance the way he did Sam in Fragile Balance. Can you think of one? But for Sam it was "funny."

And then the admission that (once RDA left) [oh, and they killed Sam's dad] the "didn't know what to do with" Sam was appalling. And they sure showed it on the screen.

imaginary conversation between staffer and ptbs before S9:

PTB 1: I don't know what in heck we can do with Carter this year. There's just nothing there. Maybe we can write around her.

Q: But Sam still has a relationship with her team members, doesn't she? Um, a team bond that goes beyond friendship? And she's pretty crucial to the team.

PTB 1: "Friendship, schmendship. without 'ship, Sam's no fun. "

PTB 2:"Right. Fun is the thing."

Q: Sam's pretty likeable and fun in her own way. She and Daniel have a cute dynamic.

PTB 3:"Well, she is our human computer, we can still use her for exposition."

PTB 1:"That's ok, I guess. It won't be like having *two* girls on the team then, now that we're adding the fun one."

PTB 1:"Right. So long as she's not the leader, it should work."

PTB: 3 :"Exactly. And we've got a new action hero this season."

Q: Sam can handle herself pretty darn well...

PTB 2: So Carter's there for explanations of the computer displays. Now, what fun stuff can we do?

Q: Won't fans notice she's being wallpapered?

PTB 1: Who?

Q: Sam.

PTB 1: Nah. It's not like they cared about her other than with Jack. And besides, we'll blow a lot of things up. It'll be fun!

[Ashizuri]

Exactly. I think them not realizing (and then admitting) the issue was doubly infuriating. I'm trying to think of when Jack undermined Daniel *publicly*, for instance the way he did Sam in Fragile Balance. Can you think of one?

The Other Side.

[Aragon101]

The Other Side.

But Daniel was vindicated, Sam was not (IIRC).

[jckfan55]

^true. Jack was pretty rude in that one--and shown to be out of line.

and it was in front of aliens, Unlike Sam where it was in front of people who would have been under her in the earth command structure.

[Ashizuri]

But Daniel was vindicated, Sam was not (IIRC).

I suppose, but I don't particularly think that anything that happened to Sam in Fragile Balance needs to be vindicated. Disrespectful airmen? Sam's been dealing with that since episode one. And I thought it was perfectly in character for Jack to interrupt that meeting.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I do 100% agree that Sam's character suffered extremely badly at times in the hands of the writers, I just don't think this is one of those moments.

[Aragon101]

I suppose, but I don't particularly think that anything that happened to Sam in Fragile Balance needs to be vindicated. Disrespectful airmen? Sam's been dealing with that since episode one. And I thought it was perfectly in character for Jack to interrupt that meeting.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I do 100% agree that Sam's character suffered extremely badly at times in the hands of the writers, I just don't think this is one of those moments.

So basically, a teenager with O'Neill's knowledge gets more respect than a Major in the Air Force? It's not like Sam was some guest lecturer, she helped BUILD the F-302 and HAS flown them in combat.

I don't believe that for a second that Sam would have been hesitant in dealing with them. In SGA, when Colonel Ellis *****es at McKay, Sam lets the complaint through, but then tears into Ellis HARD. But oh wait! JACK isn't around. Right. Now that makes sense.

[Ashizuri]

So basically, a teenager with O'Neill's knowledge gets more respect than a Major in the Air Force? It's not like Sam was some guest lecturer, she helped BUILD the F-302 and HAS flown them in combat.

I don't believe that for a second that Sam would have been hesitant in dealing with them. In SGA, when Colonel Ellis *****es at McKay, Sam lets the complaint through, but then tears into Ellis HARD. But oh wait! JACK isn't around. Right. Now that makes sense.

At that point they didn't think he was just a teenager with Jack's knowledge, they thought he was Jack. That makes a big difference to me. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, Sam wasn't hesitant in dealing with them, but was in fact putting them in their place. Her "As you should know, Captain..." made it very clear to me that she wasn't going to put up with them. But then Jack showed up, in what I thought was a very Jack fashion, and it was originally his briefing so she stepped aside. And weren't the airmen just as disrespectful to Jack as they were to Sam? I remember them laughing at him until he yelled at them and pulled rank.

So yeah, I just don't see that scene the way you do. Had Sam not been forceful and direct when dealing with the airmen, I might take offense, but I just can't in this case.

^true. Jack was pretty rude in that one--and shown to be out of line.

Jack is quite rude sometimes. It always bothered me in Window of Opportunity that he just stood there and let Daniel get knocked to ground for a laugh when he knew it was coming.

[Aragon101]

At that point they didn't think he was just a teenager with Jack's knowledge, they thought he was Jack. That makes a big difference to me. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, Sam wasn't hesitant in dealing with them, but was in fact putting them in their place. Her "As you should know, Captain..." made it very clear to me that she wasn't going to put up with them. But then Jack showed up, in what I thought was a very Jack fashion, and he was more qualified than Sam to lead the discussion so she stepped aside. And weren't the airmen just as disrespectful to Jack as they were to Sam? I remember them laughing at him until he yelled at them and pulled rank.

So yeah, I just don't see that scene the way you do. Had Sam not been forceful and direct when dealing with the airmen, I might take offense, but to me she definitely didn't come out of that scene looking bad.

My issue with the scene is that they don't believe Sam until Jack makes his move. Sam's their superior officer, what's she doing? Playing a practical joke?

in the end i concede that it's more circumstantial evidence that they really put Sam down in favor of the others.

[Ashizuri]

My issue with the scene is that they don't believe Sam until Jack makes his move. Sam's their superior officer, what's she doing? Playing a practical joke?

in the end i concede that it's more circumstantial evidence that they really put Sam down in favor of the others.

Well, that's true. I hadn't actually thought about that angle. I can see how them not believing her could be bothersome. You'd think that people at the SGC would just take that sort of weirdness in stride.

[jdjunkie]

Jack is quite rude sometimes. It always bothered me in Window of Opportunity that he just stood there and let Daniel get knocked to ground for a laugh when he knew it was coming.

Oh, I'm glad it wasn't just me who felt that. I know they were playing it for laughs, but it never quite sat right with me.

Also, there has to be a better smilie for this pairing than this little doozy (sorry)

It's enough to make Daniel soldier/scientist Sam go and Teal'c . And poor Jack ... Thor's only comment so far:

[Aragon101]

Oh, I'm glad it wasn't just me who felt that. I know they were playing it for laughs, but it never quite sat right with me.

Also, there has to be a better smilie for this pairing than this little doozy (sorry)

It's enough to make Daniel soldier/scientist Sam go and Teal'c . And poor Jack ... Thor's only comment so far:

I have have a smileys which i particularly like It'd be easy to put someone else in



and...



and...



and my favorite

[jckfan55]

My issue with the scene is that they don't believe Sam until Jack makes his move. Sam's their superior officer, what's she doing? Playing a practical joke?

Exactly.
Also I didn't like the way Jack looks at what Sam has up on the screen and basically says "ignore this lame presentation, let me tell you what it's *really* like. Just always seemed that there was a better way to handle that & the whole scene.

[LoneStar1836]

Jack is quite rude sometimes. It always bothered me in Window of Opportunity that he just stood there and let Daniel get knocked to ground for a laugh when he knew it was coming.

Heh. That's never bothered me because I can see Jack allowing that to happen because of what was going on.


As to that scene in Fragile Balance, meh, I don't particularly like it, but I do think it reflects more poorly on those pilots than Sam as they were the ones showing disrespect and being portrayed as the sexists.


I'm doing a rewatch of SG-1 and am currently on S5 and just watched 2001. Now the last scene in that one bothers me...where Carter comes flying through the gate and NO ONE seems concerned that she's hurt....as in no one other than the nameless medic rushes to her aid. Jack says several lines of dialogue to Kensey with the famous it's two "l"s and holds up three fingers and then he asks Sam if she's okay. Him not rushing to kneel down is fine (as I am anti-S/J ), but then Daniel and Teal'c just stand there. I blame PDL for not making them seem concerned since he directed that ep. Him passing the buck off onto the actors (to cover his own butt) doesn't fly, though I can't always tell if he's being sarcastic in the commentaries or not.

[Ashizuri]

I'm doing a rewatch of SG-1 and am currently on S5 and just watched 2001. Now the last scene in that one bothers me...where Carter comes flying through the gate and NO ONE seems concerned that she's hurt....as in no one other than the nameless medic rushes to her aid. Jack says several lines of dialogue to Kensey with the famous it's two "l"s and holds up three fingers and then he asks Sam if she's okay. Him not rushing to kneel down is fine (as I am anti-S/J ), but then Daniel and Teal'c just stand there. I blame PDL for not making them seem concerned since he directed that ep. Him passing the buck off onto the actors (to cover his own butt) doesn't fly, though I can't always tell if he's being sarcastic in the commentaries or not.

There's a lot of stuff over the years that made me .

Tangent is one of my favorite episdoes, but the way Daniel just completely rushes past Teal'c to make sure Jack is Ok is weird to me (not gonna lie though, the J/D-er in me squeed). As much as I destest Vala I always get huffy on her behalf in Company of Thieves when Daniel is being jerky and mistrustful and accusing her of pocketing the money when just an episode ago he was telling her how she earned her place on the team. How no one (aside from Jacob I believe) asked Daniel if he was ok with being the one to kill Sarah/Osiris in Summit/Last Stand.

I love this show to bits but they definitely missed the mark sometimes.

[jckfan55]

There's a lot of stuff over the years that made me .

Tangent is one of my favorite episdoes, but the way Daniel just completely rushes past Teal'c to make sure Jack is Ok is weird to me (not gonna lie though, the J/D-er in me squeed). As much as I destest Vala I always get huffy on her behalf in Company of Thieves when Daniel is being jerky and mistrustful and accusing her of pocketing the money when just an episode ago he was telling her how she earned her place on the team.

And he's pestering her with comments about how time is running out when she's trying to get the beaming (which I hate) to work. I'm thinking "Daniel, not helping!"

How no one (aside from Jacob I believe) asked Daniel if he was ok with being the one to kill Sarah/Osiris in Summit/Last Stand.
I love this show to bits but they definitely missed the mark sometimes.

He and Teal'c talked about killing the Goa'uld with the poison I think, but not specifically about Sarah.

[Aragon101]

Doesn't it just goad your chode if you're on a general thread that's not about any pairing n particular, and all of a sudden because of a few posters, it becomes a Sam/Jack love-in? I'm not saying don't post it, everyone's free to their opinion, but it gets so frustrating to go to X thread expecting 'general' and then finding an emphasis on Jack/Sam to the point it overtakes the original purpose.

While this is a problem for more than that, i just ran into one of those and felt a need to vent

Sigh...