Grace (713)

[jelgate]

Characters need to be well-rounded, well-written and strong. Doesn't matter whether they are male, female or somewhere in between.

I always felt something was missing with Carter, but like I mentioned in another thread I could never figure out what it was that made me unable to like her more than I did. It's nothing Amanda did, that's for sure, cause I absolutely loved her in Sanctuary character.

*shrug*

I don't know... it just bugs me sometimes.

I'm the opposite. I can't stand Magnus. Especially in S4

[Janet Fraiser]

I get this nagging feeling that Carter would be a more believeable character if only we were able to see her interact more with the world outside of work. I would have loved to see her more with someone like Cassie, at least, to get a better sense early on of who Sam is instead of Major Carter. Just to understand how she interacts with people in general, people who don't include her colleagues, her commanding officer who influences how she behaves with said people, and random men hitting on her.

Of course, I feel like that's true enough for all the characters and isn't really the point of the show, but at the same time, for a story that has run as long the franchise's three series with the reappearing characters to boot, it still makes enough sense that she could have been developed as a more rounded character earlier in the show.

Anyway, that being said, I just realized I hadn't commented on this episode. I loved it. I think it was nice to finally explore Sam's mind a bit. I thought I knew what was going on in the beginning, but it definitely had me guessing after a while. For all of the faults I think there are in the creation of Carter, the idea of Carter, I still love her, and I'd rather finish my post on a positive note.

I'm also glad that the brief "kiss" in here rekindled my old liking of the S/J pairing, toward which I've had a mainly lukewarm reaction in my re-watch. I think it was because by this point in the episode, Sam seemed so exhausted - just so done with everything - that it finally felt right because it was something from which she drew comfort.

Of course, as we know, Pete comes in soon after, but eh...

[enibas5]

Now after rewatching the later seasons, I have to correct myself.
I forgot, that the character changed later on. Unfortunately it was a little bit too late.
Anyway, I could for example enjoy "Gemini". That is of course, because it is focusing also on Replicator-Carter, which is so remarkably well done by AT.

Anyway, maybe it is not so much, that the character changes later on, but rather that this whole devote military behaviour is taken out of her character, which is mainly a result of Jack not being around anymore. So these constant "Yes, Sir", "I think, I have an idea, Sir", I apolgize, Sir - because I allowed myself to get disarmed", etc. etc. etc., which I always perceived as begging for reactions, like "it is Ok - you are a good girl", do not dominate her character anymore.
She also meets Landry more eye to eye than she did with Hemmond. Carter was always said to be a brilliant scientist, but acted mainly as a pure military character. That changed after O'Neill left.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

I wonder whether these lacks you all find in Sam's character (some of which I don't agree with, some of which I do) stem from the fact this show is primarily written by men. So she's as much a male's interpretation of a strong female character as she is anything else.

Seaboe

[enibas5]

Yes, that might very well be the case.
They made the character very much wanting to fit a "men's world", instead of opposing or rather adding to it by feminine traits.

[Janet Fraiser]

I wonder whether these lacks you all find in Sam's character (some of which I don't agree with, some of which I do) stem from the fact this show is primarily written by men. So she's as much a male's interpretation of a strong female character as she is anything else.

Seaboe

That's where I find fault with the creation of her character. If anything, I think she's a male fantasy.

That's not to take away from her positive qualities; it's just how I feel she fits into the context of the show as written by men, even if it wasn't an intentional portrayal.

A basic example is that she is often used in fantasy sequences (e.g. "the Broca Divide," "the Other Guys," "Avenger 2.0," "Window of Opportunity," "Grace Under Pressure"). It's done in such a way that it's made clear that the real Carter would not act like she would in the fantasy, but the audience - or a certain character - still gets to enjoy seeing her do it. I'm trying to think of examples of this happening with the male characters but am coming up short.

Up until Grace, it isn't apparent, at least to me, that she has any real faults of character or problems to deal with unrelated to her work. The most conflict she seemed to have up to that point was when Jacob became a Tok'ra. There wasn't even any emotional fallout from being kidnapped and almost experimented on and killed in "Desperate Measures" because it's O'Neill who is shot in the end and the one we end up focusing on.

She is pretty much perfect - the most brilliant scientist in the country and possibly the world, which is good for a sci-fi show and its audience; an arguably patriotic military officer who is comfortable with guns and following orders; and gorgeous, as many, many people like to point out throughout the series. I recall reading somewhere that some writers, maybe the creators - I don't know - admitted that Carter was too perfect of a character. I'd have to actually find the source to be sure.

It's not just Carter's character, either. There are so many aspects to the show that make it apparent that it has a very male-centric POV, but that's a long discussion that's probably already been done to death over the years.

I snipped the rest of this post for being kind of unrelated. I still think she's a wonderful character, and I think AT is largely (mostly) responsible for that, limitations in the writing of her character or not.

[Falcon Horus]

I wonder whether these lacks you all find in Sam's character (some of which I don't agree with, some of which I do) stem from the fact this show is primarily written by men. So she's as much a male's interpretation of a strong female character as she is anything else.

Something I recall Amanda saying somewhere - could have been a behind the scene or interview or something. But that does feel quite right why I have issues. I don't dislike or hate her character - I just have issues, and that explanation makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe why I liked her far better during the last two seasons, and especially in her interactions with Vala.

[hedwig]

I wonder whether these lacks you all find in Sam's character (some of which I don't agree with, some of which I do) stem from the fact this show is primarily written by men. So she's as much a male's interpretation of a strong female character as she is anything else.

Seaboe

At one point, early on the series, Amanda said she told the writers/producers to write her character as they would write any male character, and she would then supply any female characteristics that were felt to be needed ... or something like that. So, apparently the writers took her up on that.

[jckfan55]

So these constant "Yes, Sir", "I think, I have an idea, Sir", I apolgize, Sir - because I allowed myself to get disarmed", etc. etc. etc., which I always perceived as begging for reactions, like "it is Ok - you are a good girl", do not dominate her character anymore.

Funny, I never perceived it that way. remember at the beginning she is a lowly captain. Though I didn't like the apology in
Paradise Lost b/c I thought Jack should have been watching her back in that case.

She also meets Landry more eye to eyethan she did with Hemmond.

True, but in S8 she commands a team as a Lt. Col. Bound to be a slightly different relationship I'd think than as a captain or major.

Carter was always said to be a brilliant scientist, but acted mainly as a pure military character. That changed after O'Neill left.

I don't get that statement. Being an officer in the chain of command how could she not act in a military way and not be insubordinate? I do think she did act as a scientist though and did challenge authority a bit at times.
Maybe I'm just not following you.

[enibas5]

Funny, I never perceived it that way. remember at the beginning she is a lowly captain. Though I didn't like the apology in
Paradise Lost b/c I thought Jack should have been watching her back in that case.

Yes, this in fact was the one, that I had in mind.

True, but in S8 she commands a team as a Lt. Col. Bound to be a slightly different relationship I'd think than as a captain or major.
...
I don't get that statement. Being an officer in the chain of command how could she not act in a military way and not be insubordinate? I do think she did act as a scientist though and did challenge authority a bit at times.
Maybe I'm just not following you.

No, it is me, who is sometimes having a hard time to find the right words. I am quite comfortable with the English languag, but still.. it is not my mother tongue.
I try again:
Carter has to follow the chain of command - no doubt. But I feel, she is overdoing this and not allowing herself to be the self-assured person, that she also should be as an outstanding scientist. We've discussed this in another thread - it was "chain reaction", I think. For her, following orders is more important than her scientific background. So, even if she knows, the orders given may lead to viping out this planet, she follows through - not even regretting her behaviour afterwards, but only blaming the one ordering.
I also remember her standing up, when O'Neill enters the room, after he got promoted. That is ridiculous. Having that kind of relationship and background together, you would only do this if the circumstances were somehow official. But that shows, how the writers wanted Carter to be all Military structured, with no sense for appropriate behaviour beyond that. The speech, she gave to that young cadet "Hayley"... I hated it. It was soooo "to crawl to the bigwigs and bully the underlings".
Of course, character perception also always has to do with the viewers own personality and background. I served 4 years in a police unit, that was very much like military. As a matter of fact, we even wore the same green uniforms as SG-1 does. So apart from being a brilliant scientist, I should be able to identify with Carter a lot. Well, I can't. To me it seems as if she leaves her personality at the entrance door of the SGC, every time she comes to work. It just does not feel right.
Sorry, cannot put it in better words. Maybe, because it is really more about "feeling" the fault in the character, that makes it so difficult to describe.

[jckfan55]

I guess it is a personal impression. I have a very different interpretation of Carter. I'll leave it at that.

[Falcon Horus]

At one point, early on the series, Amanda said she told the writers/producers to write her character as they would write any male character, and she would then supply any female characteristics that were felt to be needed ... or something like that. So, apparently the writers took her up on that.

If they wanted a guy they should have just casted an extra actor instead of the token female.

Not exactly upping my impression of TPTW.

[jckfan55]

The problem AT said she had was they started by writing Sam constantly pointing out that she was the girl and just as good as the guys. She said just write her as a character (in that sense, like you would write a guy).

[Falcon Horus]

They never were any good at writing (female) characters, so it doesn't surprise - let me put it that way.

[Anja]

Didn't like the plot the way it developed, cannot give reasons.
But I don't agree that writing female characters didn't work - who is competend enough to judge? Who knows about the writers' intention? Perhaps the characters just came round the way they were meant to? Who knows?