Baltars redemption?

[eaterofspleens]

Meh, first post here - so I'd might as well start with something controversial.
Here it be. I'd like to see Baltar redeemed in this series.
Certainly, in the original, Baltar was a pantomine villain, with no objectives beyond his own survival and furthering his own nefarious plans to gain power.
Baltar in this series is a little different.
To begin - he was an unashamedly selfish, egotistical prat. But now what is he?
He's willing to risk himself for the woman / toaster he loves, he's willing to kill for what he sees as the greater good. He's willing to see beyond his own desires to the greater good. In other words, Baltar is aquiring many of the characteristics of a hero - or at least a tragic hero.
I wonder if internal Sixs' prompting will inadvertantly eventually cause him to reject the cylons and genuinely try selflessly to help humanity? And if that cause will eventually be (ala Londo Mollari) doomed?

[Qasim]

at least a tragic hero.

I also get that feeling I think something like this is quite likely to occur

[Cyn]

To begin - he was an unashamedly selfish, egotistical prat. But now what is he?

Your description of the Baltar we first met is right on the money and the character is indeed evolving (though some might say devolving).
I think most would agree that Gaius Baltar is a complex character and it's going to be great fun watching as this multi-layered character continues to unspool.
Tragic hero? I'm all for it.

[eaterofspleens]

Exactly - I think Six has made Balter stronger, and that he may turn round and cause her problems - the original Baltar she manipulated is not the same as the Baltar who overrides her in Pegasis. I think if Baltar is going to persist as a character he's going to have to develp some strength and it think the irony (are cylons made of irony?) would be great if its developed because of Six...

[SlytherinGal]

i am looking forward to seeing what happens in the second half of season two..baltar is my favorite character (i know, call me crazy ) and i love seeing how characters develop throughout the show's progression.

[Liebestraume]

Meh, first post here - so I'd might as well start with something controversial.

First of all, welcome to the forum. A little bit of controversy every now and then is good for the soul.

Here it be. I'd like to see Baltar redeemed in this series.

I love a good redemption story. However, given what we know of Balter now, I don't see how that is possible.

...He's willing to risk himself for the woman / toaster he loves, ...

Are you speaking of the spoilage of the upcoming episode(s)? If so, I'd agree he is risking ... something; but unless I see it played out, I cannot decide if that something is himself.

...he's willing to kill for what he sees as the greater good. ...

I assume you are referring to his action in Fragged? You see, I read his motives there differently. Crashdown's inexperience was endangering everyone's life, one of which is Balter's; so Balter acted to save his own skin. That his action happened to benifit "the greater good" could not be used to justify his motives.

...He's willing to see beyond his own desires to the greater good. ...

I'm afraid I'm a bit lost here. Could you possibly enlighten?

Barlter is a very complex character, but I think at his core Balter always puts Balter first. Unless that changes, it'd be hard for him to become any type of hero. Because heroism, fundamentally, is about putting others before one's self.

[Cyn]

Baltar is a very complex character, but I think at his core Balter always puts Baltar first. Unless that changes, it'd be hard for him to become any type of hero. Because heroism, fundamentally, is about putting others before one's self.

I hope it's alright to jump in here.

"Hero" is such a complicated word with many shades of meaning. I agree that selflessness is most certainly a characteristic of being a hero and it's going to be darned difficult for Gaius to exhibit that trait.

However, there are other interpretations of the meaning of "hero," including...
"a man admired for his achievements...," "one that shows great courage,"
"the central figure in an event, period, or movement," and finally, "an object of extreme admiration and devotion." (Merriam-Webster on-line Dictionary).

It is within my realm of plausibilty that Baltar could become defined as the last two examples of "hero" --"the central figure in an event, period, or movement," and/or "an object of extreme admiration and devotion."

[eaterofspleens]

Barlter is a very complex character, but I think at his core Balter always puts Balter first. Unless that changes, it'd be hard for him to become any type of hero. Because heroism, fundamentally, is about putting others before one's self.

Yeah, I agree. I don't quite see Baltar as the self sacrificing hero type. He's still acting primarily based on his own interests and sense of self preservation.
That said, I do see that beginning to change. Baltar is finding a cause greater than the self presevation society. Its not a cause we as an audience are supposed to agree with for the most part - genocidal religious fanatics rarely are. But based on what I've seen so far it is making him stronger, maybe strong enough to stop being manipulated in the future? Of course that still leaves his unfortunate past misdeads to come back to haunt him. Hence the Londo potential analogy...

[Liebestraume]

I hope it's alright to jump in here.

Please do jump in. It is an interesting topic. (Besides, it helps me to stave off my Galactic-oholism. )

However, there are other interpretations of the meaning of "hero," including...
"a man admired for his achievements...," "one that shows great courage,"
"the central figure in an event, period, or movement," and finally, "an object of extreme admiration and devotion." (Merriam-Webster on-line Dictionary).

It is within my realm of plausibilty that Baltar could become defined as the last two examples of "hero" --"the central figure in an event, period, or movement," and/or "an object of extreme admiration and devotion."

That is a good point, and I agree. Baltar has been, and will continue to be, a central figure in this saga.

When reading the opening post, I only approached the concept from the self-sacrifice angle -- in that I believe Baltar's redemption, however amazing a story line, would require that aspect of heroism, which he has consistently proven to be incapable of heretofore. It would be quite interesting, then, if the writers could turn that around.

That said, I do see that beginning to change. Baltar is finding a cause greater than the self presevation society. Its not a cause we as an audience are supposed to agree with for the most part - genocidal religious fanatics rarely are. But based on what I've seen so far it is making him stronger, maybe strong enough to stop being manipulated in the future?

That is an interesting take, and I agree that he has become increasingly stronger, going from an passive participant (in mini) to an active participant (in Fragged).

I further agree that an cause that we disagree with is not necessarily unworthy for a character. However, I sometimes wonder if Balter's increasing belief in the said cause is the result of Cylon manipulation. After all, it is not hard to make an egoist to believe in a religion where he is the central figure, "the hand of god" if you will.

[Cyn]

Please do jump in. It is an interesting topic. (Besides, it helps me to stave off my Galactic-oholism. )

Thanks! It's good to feel welcome.
I'm afraid you are not alone in "suffering" from Galactic-oholism. I've been getting more antsy and obsessive as the big night (US) approaches on Friday.

When reading the opening post, I only approached the concept from the self-sacrifice angle -- in that I believe Baltar's redemption, however amazing a story line, would require that aspect of heroism, which he has consistently proven to be incapable of heretofore. It would be quite interesting, then, if the writers could turn that around.

Whoops, yes we were considering redemption, not heroism when I went off on a bit of a tangent. Sorry 'bout that.

I further agree that a cause that we disagree with is not necessarily unworthy for a character. However, I sometimes wonder if Balter's increasing belief in the said cause is the result of Cylon manipulation. After all, it is not hard to make an egoist to believe in a religion where he is the central figure, "the hand of god" if you will.

Very good point.

[Liebestraume]

Whoops, yes we were considering redemption, not heroism when I went off on a bit of a tangent. Sorry 'bout that.

Not at all. Those were excellent points. Besides, the opening post did end on the heroism theme; so the oversight was entirely mine.

[GreatSpinningRoundThing]

I see Baltar as falling during the series and not during the mini-series or the events before.

He provided access to the Cylons to protected systems, but he didn't do it because he had assented to the betrayal of mankind to the cylons. He did it because he wanted to help his girlfriend's company gain an illegal advantage over their competitors. He betrayed his trust, and it resulted in great destruction. He was weak and greedy but not a traitor.

Furthermore in the mini-series, he refrained from abusing his position to save himself. He helped the little poor-eyed woman, when he could have taken advantage of the situation for his own good.

However, as the series progresses he makes conscious decisions to act as he believes the Cylons want him to act. He becomes in many respects an agent of his Six's will, he decides to do so.

The tricky part ofcourse is that the Cylon desires he seems to be following, are that he discard certain traits that we would consider bad, and that he develop certain traits that we would consider good.

So the jump becomes, he was a poor human being but not a traitor, he is becoming a traitor but a better human being. Can he become a good human being and a reformed traitor? I am not sure.

[beale947]

Well even though he didn't know we was going to cause the almost total extinction, what can he do that can redeam himself of the billions of deaths?

[JediChris1138]

Okay... this is my second post - I didn't realize it was traditional to announce one's passage from the lurking stage, so - moving right along:

Yes, I think it would be GREAT for Gaius to redeem himself, but he's going to have to sink a WHOLE lot lower before he does it.

It is my belief that he is going to play a critical role in the creation of a human / cylon hybrid or maybe already has. In fact, he may have CREATED the cylons.

First of all, his name is Giaus, which is the male form of Gaia. The Greek god of Earth. She shacks up with Uranus (one of her sons) and has lots of Children, including the cyclops. It's easy to read Giaus / Gaia and Cyclops (one freakishly big eye) and CYLON (one freakishly awesome glowing red eye).

So lets review the evidence (even though the show likes to be unreasonably ambigous)

1.) Yes, he described the nuclear blast. (or didn't and showed up again). Okay. This COULD be a factor later, but for now, that's negated by the fact that it WAS a very large distance and could, in fact, could have been a a pressure wave.

2.) There's something about Baltar having a baby I keep hearing. Father of humanity or something. Okay. He does shack up with Kara Thrace (Starbuck). Then she gets herself cut open and someone looks at her private parts. That wasn't NOTHING. I can't believe that the show's writers just 'put that in.' Maybe he's a Cylon.

[JediChris1138]

3.) So if he is a Cylon, or a sympathizer, (based on the original series cannon, as well) I believe he is either the reincarnated Cylon version of a real person - who's conciousness was downloaded. Six said herself that it's possible to do. If that's true, he'd pretty much have to either save the president or Adama OR kill off pretty much EVERY Cylon.

4.) He sees a CYLON CHICK. He's either insane and a sympathizer, not insane and recieving cylon transmissions, not insane and has a cylon think tank manipulating him in his own head, or some other weird combination of these.

He keeps sinking in DEEPER. Is Tigh's wife a cylon? Is Adama? We dont' know! He's getting worse. Now he's got that other Gina to frack with.

Uh-huh. Best of Luck with Redemption. I'm guessing that we're going to see something closer to Dante's inferno- a descent into hell.