"Fire on my command" but fire what???

[Darkstar]

ok in my perhaps not so many years of growing up with startrek, i haven't really cleared up a matter that concerns weapons, i myself am not scientist and do not claim to be educated in the area of nuclear or particle weapons and so that is said to be theoreticlly possible but not very finacially viable in todays world, but non the less the ideas behind the weapons we are allowed to witness by the magic of CGI are based on real scientific possibilities such as photons and particle waves etc..., so i have posted this thread not waffle on like i seem to have done so far (please excuse this) but to discuss all of the types of weaponary and technology behind them.
for example: i would like to belive that a photon torpedo is a deadly weapon as claimed in many ST series and movies by the delightfull hull breech it brutally carves into the hull of an enemy ship that is just asking for it (and gets it with style most of the time) but how do photons or should i say photons torps affect an enemy more so than say a tacticle nuke, im ignorant to this topic at the best of times but them we come on to Quantum torpedos, and im puzzled, i beleive it uses sub space energy or zero point energy to inflict damage onto what ever it should come into contact with but why upgrade this?,
i guess each of them has their own upside and downside but i would just like to clear up any matters concerning weapons fans of the site may have,

On a slightly different note i am not sure that this thread should be here in this section or science and tech???

but anyway post any info and anything weapons related in the startrek universe if you want.

[skritsys]

Your best source for information on photon torpedoes and the science of it all you can pretty much find here:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Photon_torpedo
that would be the best resource on the technical side of the photon torpedo.

[helio9]

Basically from the article, you see that a photon torpedo explodes by combining matter and antimatter that is stores onboard.

The reason that this is far greater than a nuclear explosion would be (especially in space) a nuclear reaction also gets it's energy from matter-energy conversion. In fission, lets say, a uranium atom breaks down into two lighter elements. However, the mass of the two lighter atoms combined is slightly less than the mass of the initial uranium atom. That "lost mass" has been converted to energy, and is what causes fission reactions to yeild energy.

However, fission converts a very small amount of matter to energy in this process. It is actually rather inefficient, less than 1% of the mass of the initial uranium atom is converted.

Whereas, in a photon torpedo in the ST universe, a photon torpedo just takes some antimatter and combines it with matter, resulting in complete annihilation of the both. This has a matter/energy conversion efficiency of essencially 100% (or at least, all the antimatter would be destroyed).
For that reason, a photon torpedo could in theory be much more effective than a nuke.

However if thats true, one of two things is true about ST. 1) the photon torpedo's have a very small amount of matter/antimatter onboard.
or
2)If they do indeed have a larger amount, then the explosive force shown on the show when they shoot these things at planets is much much less than it should be. If you annihilate as much antimatter and matter as there is uranium in a nuke, it should give yeilds in the gigatons, easily (like in stargate).

[Wyrminarrd]

I´ve always thought that Star Trek was just filled with technobabble when it came to things like this, sure Photons and what not´s have their real world equivilent but are used incorrectly.

The way I used to justify photon torpedos being better then nukes was that they had an energy release that effected energy shields more effectivly then nukes. In terms of raw destruction when fired on a planet surface a photon torpedo doesn´t even come close to a 1 megaton nuke. Plus everytime one of them hits a shield there is this tiny explosion, a nuclear explosion would dwarf the ship in size which is propably why they didn´t use them (to expensive).

[gary83]

the pulse from the nuke would probably knock the shields out straight away a swell

[Darkstar]

ok i will have a good look at the website,

also another kind of incosistancy is Quantum torpedos, these i believe use sub space energy or get their energy from susbspace ( in a way the ZPM does in stargate) but wasen't the use of all and any subspace weapons banned by the federation in a treaty/accord that is based upon a few ST episodes where hey can essentially destroy subspace and disrupt or be dangerus to warp drive and ships, i think this was really brought to the table in TNG and the movie "insurection" with the Son'a who use these to inflict terrible damage on ships and tear open subspace with devastation cosequesnces thereafter,

anyway i will have a look at the website posted above

[Brigadier General Pants]

but wasen't the use of all and any subspace weapons banned by the federation in a treaty/accord that is based upon a few ST episodes where hey can essentially destroy subspace and disrupt or be dangerus to warp drive and ships, i think this was really brought to the table in TNG and the movie "insurection" with the Son'a who use these to inflict terrible damage on ships and tear open subspace

The Son'a used thermolytic weapons, which were supposed to cause subspace fissures, and were also highly unpredictable. That's why they were banned. I seem to recall something about subspace weapons being banned too, but I can't recall exactly... maybe I'm manufacturing memories?

The concern I have with photon torpedoes is that the annihilation photon produced by a matter-anitmatter reaction is only a gamma photon (511 keV). They aren't particularly powerful in the grand scheme of things, and certainly nukes produce far heavier (and hence damaging) particles (alpha, beta, neutron I think? plus gamma of course). Somehow, I don't think they would be that effective as a weapon. Maybe the sheer intensity of the blast would do the damage, but it would have to be a big blast....

[helio9]

The Son'a used thermolytic weapons, which were supposed to cause subspace fissures, and were also highly unpredictable. That's why they were banned. I seem to recall something about subspace weapons being banned too, but I can't recall exactly... maybe I'm manufacturing memories?

The concern I have with photon torpedoes is that the annihilation photon produced by a matter-anitmatter reaction is only a gamma photon (511 keV). They aren't particularly powerful in the grand scheme of things, and certainly nukes produce far heavier (and hence damaging) particles (alpha, beta, neutron I think? plus gamma of course). Somehow, I don't think they would be that effective as a weapon. Maybe the sheer intensity of the blast would do the damage, but it would have to be a big blast....

Well my point was just that given a mass x of fissile material and the same mass x of anti-matter/matter, the antimatter reaction would release much, much much more energy, thats all. Im not sure what effect gamma rays have on sheilds or anything.

And you're not imagining it, in ST:Insurrection while the Enterprise is being attacked by the Son'a, after the Son'a fired that handy little weapon of theres, one of the bridge officers pointed out that sub-space weapons were supposed to be banned by the Khitomer accord, to which Riker responded "Remind me to launch a protest".

I'm not sure where quantum torpedoes fit into this, but it blatantly says on the site above that they generate their energy from zero-point energy derived from subspace. I guess its just a flaw in the storyline, certainly not the first.

[Wyrminarrd]

There may be a difference between a weapon that distorts sub-space and one that only draws energy from it. The first one might cause permenent damage to the surrounding area with strange distortions and anomilies but the latter only does what weapons usually do, inflict damage.

[skritsys]

A weapon that uses affects subspace would be highly volatile especially in combat, very unpredictable. Very similar to utilizing a nuclear weapon on a planet. For one, there is the fallout factor and the radiation.
And there is the possibility of taking yourself out with it.

[helio9]

A weapon that uses affects subspace would be highly volatile especially in combat, very unpredictable. Very similar to utilizing a nuclear weapon on a planet. For one, there is the fallout factor and the radiation.
And there is the possibility of taking yourself out with it.

Apparently thats not a factor with quantum torpedoes, they're reliable, powerful and used freely.

[Darkstar]

i think to understand in some way how a quantum topedo works is to understand subspace, what affects it can have on normal space and how things in normal space can affect subspce (i suppose i could have said visa versa but what the hey!!), i must admit in all of the trekology subspace has been the one thing that i must know the least about, that and qunatum torps but the two go and in hand anyway.

if subspace weapons are unpredictable is it that the energy released translates through this realm/plane and can re-appear in normal space creating a danagerus mix?

[skritsys]

I think they addressed that in the Physics of Trek book, I will have to check when I get home home, but I think that may be the issue that was raised.

[Darkstar]

ok we understand a photon topr but still the ever elusive quantum torp remains the mystery in the ST universe,
other that merit some research could be:

Photonic missile: a green, photon cased missile that was seen in VOY on the delta flyer.

Tricobalt Device: a blue weapon seen in VOY caretaker, a seemingly deadly weapon that was never seen again!?

Disrupter: utilised mainly by the Romulan and Klingons, basicly he history points to the two species exchanging technology and modifying them each in their own way, either a green blast or red blast of energy that seems to be quite effective.

Chroniton Missile/Toropedo: a deadly projectile that was seen mainly in VOY "year of hell" and "before and after" season 3 and 4, a weapon that seems out of phase?

Taceyon pulse/charge/burst: a weapon that is designed to effect sheilding seen in TNG and ST insurrection, but hwat is a tacheyon?
lets keep the thread rolling if we can?

[uknesvuinng]

ok we understand a photon topr but still the ever elusive quantum torp remains the mystery in the ST universe,
other that merit some research could be:

Photonic missile: a green, photon cased missile that was seen in VOY on the delta flyer.

Tricobalt Device: a blue weapon seen in VOY caretaker, a seemingly deadly weapon that was never seen again!?

I think the Photonic missile was just supposed to be a fancy photon torpedo.

The tri-cobolt device was their to-scale equivalent of our nukes, if you were to compare photon torpedos to our standard missiles. It was a trek-age WMD. In the episode during which Seven downloads all the ships info and goes all conspiracy theory, she pointed out how odd it was a ship sent on a mission to find some terrorists would be wielding such a device, especially at a higher than normal yield.