Deep Space 9 Superior

[the Fifth Race]

Sorry for the late reply, Fifth Race!......The whole revelation that the Kai (sorry can't recall her name) was an agent of the Pah Wraith rather than the Prophets (which explained all those times during the previous seasons when she'd been unable to connect with the Prophets). I did enjoy that.

But I simply found the entire Gul DuKat gets plastic surgery and becomes the Kai's lover plot thread ludicrious. I winced every time those two appeared on screen together. It was like something out of a bad daytime soap. That she never recognised him just seemed ridiculous to me. I thought it was such a lousy way to close a character - or two characters really as I always thought the Kai was a wonderfully complex character too - who'd been so strong in the show. It was like turning a good villain into a clown.

And I recall being really annoyed and upset about the whole Sisko leaves wife and child behind and who knows what happened to him, maybe he'll come back at some point...thing, too. I really hate when TPTB don't give us a happy ending for all the characters in a final episode. I know others disagree and some like to have a mix of angst and happiness, but when I've followed a group of people for seven or whatever seasons, I just like to leave knowing they're getting on happily with their lives. Albion

No problem on the late reply Albion, I do the samething and forget which threads I was following or replying to.

I hear you on the whole Kai Winn and Dukat arc during season 7. Now that you reminded me of it, it was assinine and rather boring. I remember after watching it the first couple times I fast forward through those two now when I rewatch season 7. I also agree with you on Sisko and his new wife being warned not to marry by the prophets because they wanted Sisko to follow the path they layed out for him

Good calls on both points my friend!, and thanx for replying.

[lathiat]

I agree with Jake and Nog being a little out of place and not the best of characters on DS9.

TNG was defiently me second favorite and very close to DS9. I just never get tired of watching re-runs of either show!

I disagree, i thought nog and jake formed some of the best characters on DS9.

And yes, i just finished watching the entire series of DS9 (well, I'm sure i missed a couple eps somewhere because I've seen some before that I didn't see, but oh well) oer the past 3 weeks or so, and its definately my favourite

I think two things made this show
a) The dynamic of the various cultures, the bajorans, cardiassians, klingons,etc, kept the show very much alive
b) The constant story-line -- this is one thing say, voyager, missed out on alot, ds9 had a very constant linked together story line that kept it interested, it wasn't just a 100% smattering of random episodes (stargate gets a bit like this sometimes)

Voyager and enterprise come a *very* close second tho.

[Albion]

I remembered another one. The whole Ezri Dax thing. I wasn't happy about Jadzia being killed off, but if they were going to have her die, then please, have her die and let that be the end of it. Then Worf could have grieved with dignity, instead of being propelled into a boring ship 'triangle' for several episodes until the inevitable happened and he realised his mistake. (And that's coming from someone who usually adores angst and ship). Apart from which, the entire thing with Ezri being there and involved with the crew of DS9 completely flew in the face of what we'd always been told about the way the symbiotes and their hosts worked. That future hosts stayed away from contact with loved ones of previous hosts to avoid exactly the social, emotional complications we saw with Ezri. It wasn't even a personal choice, but a strict law of the Trill society and punishable by severe sanctions for those who broke it. I hate revisionist history in a show, so that didn't go down at all well with me.

I feel though I should clarify my initial post on this one. I absolutely agree that when it comes to character development, plots and writing, DS9 scores not only over any other Trek creation I've seen, but over most SF shows period. The complexity of its themes and the dark, almost operatic atmosphere to the show was stunningly conceived and executed. By all justice, it should be the Trek show I adore the most.

I also agree with comments made on this thread about the deficiencies in Voyager. The lack of character development, the lazy writing at times - all things which usually matter greatly to me.

But for some reason I can't explain, despite all of the above, Voyager and not DS9 was the one which struck the strongest emotional response in me. Go figure. I just liked those guys. They didn't have to do much.

So I can't claim at all that my preference for Voyager over DS9 is based on anything sensible or logic. It's just so.

I am appreciating DS9 more and more, again, while revisiting it daily on SKY. It still doesn't invoke that same response in me that Voyager does, but I do appreciate it's excellence. (The final season not withstanding, of course )

Oh, and I, too, adored Nog and Jake. I loved the fact that despite their strong cultural differences they maintained a solid friendship and their misadventures on the station were often the funniest thing about the show. Both were very endearing characters, I thought. Especially Nog - I struggled with him all the way as he fought against the confines of Ferengi society to achieve his dream of joining Starfleet. If there was a character I disliked on DS9, it would have to be Sisko. The actor's acting style just never worked for me - I know he's an acclaimed actor, but, sorry, imo he can't do tough or angry for peanuts - and I found him most irritating when he tried to introduce any serious emotion into his range. My favourites would have to be the O'Briens (gosh, but that little Molly was cute enough to eat), Quark and his brother...actually everyone else except Sisko <g> were always interesting to me.

Albion

[the Fifth Race]

I disagree, i thought nog and jake formed some of the best characters on DS9.

Let me clarify, I did'nt enjoy the the early Nog and Jake relationship and episodes. But when Nog was getting ready to join Starfleet and eventually did the dynamic between the two was much better.

I really always liked Nog, but Jake was painful for me to watch in the early seasons. But after he became a man (and a better actor) his character was much better. I loved the way the story arc went with him going against his fathers wishes and not joining Starfleet. I also loved the storyline where Jake stayed on DS9 to work as a reporter after the Cardassian/Dominion allaince took it back over temporarily, good stuff.

[Anubis69]

I really always liked Nog, but Jake was painful for me to watch in the early seasons. But after he became a man (and a better actor) his character was much better.

That's cos early on he fell into the common steroetypes of a child in TV. Getting the easy, light stuff. (cos lets be honest, Hollywood can't harm children, so they make sure they're safe) It was once he grew up a little and got into the gritty stuff then he became a good character. Like that ep where Jake and Bashir are on the planet that's being invaded by the Klingons and he has to deal when he abandons Bashir. I can't remember how the end went exactly, but it was immense.

[the Fifth Race]

That's cos early on he fell into the common steroetypes of a child in TV. Getting the easy, light stuff. (cos lets be honest, Hollywood can't harm children, so they make sure they're safe) It was once he grew up a little and got into the gritty stuff then he became a good character. Like that ep where Jake and Bashir are on the planet that's being invaded by the Klingons and he has to deal when he abandons Bashir. I can't remember how the end went exactly, but it was immense.

I think I had more of a problem with a child being a major player in any Star Trek show. With Jake being so young when DS9 first aired it took away from the action adventure that I came to expect from ST. Remember when TNG first aired, the first couple of seasons children and families abord the Enterprise played a big role in alot of episodes. They made it a point that TNG's Enterprise was the first Starfleet ship to house families and children. Then if you also remember that basically after season II of TNG children and family story arc episodes were far/few and inbetween. I guess the writers finally realized that the true beauty of ST not to mention what most people tuned into every week to watch was a ST that had aliens, space battles and cool scifi stuff. DS9 finally realized this to, because Jake kind of disappeared on the radar from seasons 3 - 5.

[Starbase]

Jake and Nog had great chemistry. They did'nt have very many storylines and episodes dedicated to them but the few they did have were memorable episodes. I paticulary liked the one where they got picked up by the Defiants sister ship with the crew all being young cadets...great stuff, to bad I can't remember the name of that episode.

[KatG]

At this point, with no Trek on the horizon, I would dearly love to catch up with DS9. Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait for the syndication ptb to catch up to me.

If you have cable/satellite with Spike TV their air TNG/DS9 several times a day.

[Darkstar]

Jake and Nog had great chemistry. They did'nt have very many storylines and episodes dedicated to them but the few they did have were memorable episodes. I paticulary liked the one where they got picked up by the Defiants sister ship with the crew all being young cadets...great stuff, to bad I can't remember the name of that episode.

the name of the episode is "Valiant" which is the name of the sister ship, good episode but a few of the cadets namely a second in command female i would have very much liked to slap some respect into her chubby little face.

oh sorry im ranting season 6 was probably one of the bset and i can remember that because i have recently seen the episode on DVD in question as well as many others, "rocks and shoals" was a must see with some great character moments and "favour the bold" and the second part to it with some desent space battles for the freedom of the alpha quadrant and DS9.

[Brigadier General Pants]

and another i cannot think of the name to save my life that painted the picture of the ancient past (not stargate ancients mind you) that gave us the answer to why alien races such as the klingons humans and romulans all look pretty much humanoid in TNG.

Yeah, they were the 'Quick, let's explain the bumpy heads' guys. "It's not budget constraints, it's a Master Race." I don't think they had a name. Maybe they called the Blandians. They were from Bland Prime, metophorically at least.

[Darkstar]

Yeah, they were the 'Quick, let's explain the bumpy heads' guys. "It's not budget constraints, it's a Master Race." I don't think they had a name. Maybe they called the Blandians. They were from Bland Prime, metophorically at least.

that is something that ENT never really touched upon where as i think TNG and DS9 touched upon the past which gives the ST universe a solid feel, i think certain episodes like the icconian doorways could have been used a fiar bit more than it did, imagine they did go with it stargate would be considered the ripoff show, im glad in that respect they never brought it back in VOY or DS9 nor ENT

[Brigadier General Pants]

Yes, in a way it was good they didn't go into the Master Race too much, at least for the sake of SG. But from a purely ST point of view, they really missed out on an excellent story arc. They could have made an entire TV show out of the 'Quest to Find the Secret of the Blandians'.

[Anubis69]

Sounds very Halo, Metroid and SG though. It's too generic sci-fi for trek to do it. From my PoV they want to push the boundaries of SF, not conform into another overdone (and usually badly done) topic.

[the Fifth Race]

Yes, in a way it was good they didn't go into the Master Race too much, at least for the sake of SG. But from a purely ST point of view, they really missed out on an excellent story arc. They could have made an entire TV show out of the 'Quest to Find the Secret of the Blandians'.

Speaking of missed story arcs they never explored, especially having to do with 'master races'. How about the builders of the 'Dyson's sphere'. That by far was the most advanced piece of technology they ever discovered in the ST universe. I liken the builders of the Dyson's sphere as an ultra advanced humanoid race like the Ancients were in the SG universe.

[Anubis69]

Ditto. that was one of the first eps of TNG i watched as a trekkie. It was a great ep, amazing SFX, great concept and it had everyone's favourite engineer!

[Brigadier General Pants]

Sounds very Halo, Metroid and SG though. It's too generic sci-fi for trek to do it. From my PoV they want to push the boundaries of SF, not conform into another overdone (and usually badly done) topic.

It's overdone now, but then it was quite fresh. Remember, SG, Halo etc all 'came up' with the idea after TNG. I'm just saying they could have got in first...

[Smegger56]

I find DS9 my 4th favourite of the lot, with Voyager the wone i hate.

TOS
TNG
ENT (tho that has cocked up some Trek history)
DS9
VOY

One thing i've always felt with the Trek shows after TOS is that they all tried to create relationships with the characters they where equal to the Kirk, Spock and McCoy triangle. TNG came close, and DS9 had Odo and Quarck, Miles and Julian, VOY had sod all.

But for me, TOS is the ultimate Trek. Tho it had campy elements to it, it was the 60's, but it was by far the most fun to watch, and it didn't rely on all that heavy techno babble, which seemed to plague DS9 and VOY... and even TNG, but that was fine some how.

[skritsys]

That is what made TOS inspire everything the fact that less is more. Granted there were some elements that made the stories cheesy at times, but then again there was not as much techno speak.

[Smegger56]

Exactly. TNG had it, but it was different. A new generation of fans. DS9 and VOY did it to death.

TOS and TNG are the best by far, with TOS the best in general... IMO

[skritsys]

What also made the earlier shows great was the fact that they did not explain all the aspects and history of the villains, there was an air of mystery and intrigue that left the viewer wanting more. In today's shows they feel they have to explain everything.
The writers should take a lesson from the masters of horror and scifi, don't go into so much detail when you introduce a villain. i.e., Leatherface and Pinhead. Yes, I know off topic a little but then when Mark Lenard played the Romulan commander in TOS in "Balance of Terror" we were hooked and riveted because we did not know much and from that brief glimpse of the Romulans in TOS it was like "WOW!"
Now that the Romulans and Klingons and every other species gets drummed into everyone's head with each new scifi series that comes around, there is nothing left to leave the viewer in awe.
B+B simply viewed ST as a cash cow and they did everything they could to milk it as much as possible without any respect to the legacy of Roddenberry.