Condemned (205)

[Uber]

And this is Sheppard's huge character flaw. His first responsibility is NOT to protect his team. His first responsibility is to protect Atlantis. His second is to protect innocents. And then he gets to worry about saving his own butt. There's a good chance he blew Atlantis' cover by using a drone. He definately blew it's cover by telling the head murderer about Atlantis. Sure, it's 'possible' that the lead murderer won't be able to tell anyone. But there's a chance he could.

He didn't help any innocent people. Those people were tried and convicted of heinous crimes by thier society. Remember, the false arrests didn't start happening until Weir showed up. Everyone on that island was a top level bad guy. So instead of helping innocents, Sheppard freed the guilty to save himself. There was no other way out? Really? A bunch of guys with a couple of guns and big sticks are enough to make Sheppard crumble and give in? This is the same guy who held off a SuperWraith with a bunch of fireflies. Ronon had survived being hunted and held up against SuperFord. Rodney is a genius. Teyla.. well.. Teyla is pretty and can hit people with sticks. With all of this, the only solution Sheppard could come up with was 'Let the prisioners go so the Wraith can feed on the people on the mainland'. You say he protected the innocent. I say he did the exact opposite.


Actually, thats exactly what he should have done.




This is where a lot of people are missing something. The magistrate didn't chose the people on the island. Their Society did. They took thier worst criminals, people who would've gotten the death penalty in the US. These people got trails, were convicted, and sentenced. Only in the last few HOURS did the magistrate go goofy and start dumping innocent people in Jail. But none of those people were on the Island. Its possible the public outcry would've reversed the arrests. But we'll never know, because with no one on the island, the Wraith will head into the cities. And kill everyone.

D

Tok'ra Hostess replied to most of this but a few other points...We WATCHED him condemn a woman...we saw it happen. And just because there would be a kangaroo court to determine her guilt or innocence, it was made clear her fate was predetermined. By whom? The magistrate.

Further, the idea of leaving even those you would deem the worst of the worst on an island to have their life sucked out is what I'd call cruel and unusual punishment. There's nothing civilized about a people that sacrifice others to protect themselves...especially when, as the woman was telling Weir, that more and more people are being taken to the island for lesser and lesser offenses. Did their society want to execute the murderers? Fine...that's their prerogative. But leaving them to have their life sucked out of them just as a buffer to protect the rest of their society is morally indefensible.

I thought about the issue of the drone but as TH pointed out, I'm fairly sure the crashed puddlejumper was a big enough clue for the Wraith.

And as for abandoning the people on that island to the Wraith, that clearly was not an option as they were all held at gunpoint. As you may or may not recall, Sheppard was trying to spirit his team off that island but got stopped by the natives. So abandoning them was simply not an option. Then with the wraith attacking, he had no choice...he had to help them.

He did protect Atlantis...and his team and as many people as he could.

So as far as those deemed guilty and innocent, you then agree with the idea of sacrificing people to the Wraith to protect others? It's ironic that the magistrate is the same guy from Demons as his role was nearly identical for a while.

And again, the point is that the society continued on and grew and thrived...because of this deal with the devil he made. They were on borrowed time for the getgo.

Is it a tragedy? No doubt. But countless worlds have been left in ruin by the Wraith.

Could anything have been done to prevent it? No.

[GatetheWay]

Once again, there’s an episode that prominently features McKay. Clearly, he’s a favorite among the writing staff, and there’s plenty of agreement among the viewers that he’s a strong character. But he’s rapidly falling into the “too perfect” category. Despite all of his character flaws, he’s always pulling something impossible out of his hat. It becomes a case of letting one character get away with the impossible with the convenient stroke of a pen. Characters should never be that enormously competent.

Where SGA has one "enormously competent" character, SG-1 has two: Sam Carter and Daniel Jackson. Sam is always accomplishing the impossible at the last minute and is very modest about it. Daniel seems to always be able to read anything that they come across no matter where they are. McKay is far less perfect then either of them and is more believable.

That’s not to say that this episode doesn’t try very hard to explore who McKay is and how he operates. It’s just not an amazing revelation. Yes, Rodney tends to claim that something is beyond impossible, only to find the miraculous solution when (perhaps subconsciously) it makes him look the best. But what I’m waiting for (and I imagine many others anticipate the same) is the moment when he really, truly cannot make it happen. It’s been on the table before, but not enough to really make McKay step back and evaluate his methods.

Can you say 'Trinity'?

[derrickh]

The recurring argument is that the Wraith would have eventually headed for the mainland so the civilation was on borrowed time anyway. I dont see that as an excuse for Sheppard to quicken it's demise. I don't see Cuba being able to sustain itself for another 100 years, but that doesnt mean it's ok to wipe it out now because Castro made a really bad deal.

Putting criminals on the island may be cruel and unusual for some. But it's better than a needle in the arm. If given the choice of a lethal injection, or being sent to an island where you have a small(very small) chance of escaping a culling, i think most would pick the island.

Another reccuring point is that the island was being filled wil lesser criminals. Even though the head bad guy was said to have killed 11 people. The guy that helped the team killed someone by 'accident'. Really? Drunk driving could be considered an accident. Shaking a child until it dies could be seen as an accident to the criminal. 'Accident' is how a lot of criminals justify the consequences of thier actions. Ronan said it himself, it's a story thats been told many times. Everyone is prison is innocent if you ask them. As far as we know, no one was on the island for jaywalking.
But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this so I'll leave it.

Here's what is agreed on by most from the looks of it.
-Sheppard should have been cloaked. So his incompedence directly lead to the PJ getting shot down. And the downed PJ blew Atlantis' cover from the Wraith. And so...Protecting Atlantis...failed.

-The Wraith will wipe out the civilization now that the island is empty. Sheppard was the cause of the island to be empty. Protecting innocents...failed.

-Sheppard and his team made it safely through the gate. Protecting his team... success.

D

[GatetheWay]

Just because the team had Jumpers does not mean that Atlantis is still around. They could of easily of taken the Jumpers to their relocation site before they set off the self-destruct. Seems logical to me.

[Uber]

The recurring argument is that the Wraith would have eventually headed for the mainland so the civilation was on borrowed time anyway. I dont see that as an excuse for Sheppard to quicken it's demise. I don't see Cuba being able to sustain itself for another 100 years, but that doesnt mean it's ok to wipe it out now because Castro made a really bad deal.

Sheppard didn't actively hasten their demise. He saved his team. He helped those he could. He didn't create the nightmare that the planet was to endure...he just did the best he could in crappy circumstances.

You keep forgetting...he didn't have a choice. He couldn't just leave them there...they had guns to the heads of his team. There was no escape.

It wasn't as if Sheppard could say..."OK...I'll only help those who were falsely accused of a crime and the rest have to stay."

So if his team or if ANYONE for that matter was to make it out of that situation, Sheppard and Weir had to act fast.

Plus also remember there were several cruisers...like three if my memory serves. THREE WRAITH CRUISERS. So sure, the wraith would have started on that island, but there weren't nearly enough people there to satisfy them.

The mainland was doomed from the getgo.

Putting criminals on the island may be cruel and unusual for some. But it's better than a needle in the arm. If given the choice of a lethal injection, or being sent to an island where you have a small(very small) chance of escaping a culling, i think most would pick the island.

Hmm. Let's see...needle in the arm or living a horrific existence waiting for the day that a Wraith would take me to his ship and feed on me for who knows how long...

Tough one there...

Also you keep insisting that they are all criminals. It's clear from the magistrate, from Weir and her team and from the woman who tried to warn them that this was no longer the case. Sure there wre criminals on the island, but clearly they weren't all criminals. Just victims of a selfish man.

But again there were THREE CRUISERS. The Wraith was going to betray the magistrate...they just didn't get a chance to feed off of the island inhabitants first.

Another reccuring point is that the island was being filled wil lesser criminals. Even though the head bad guy was said to have killed 11 people. The guy that helped the team killed someone by 'accident'. Really? Drunk driving could be considered an accident. Shaking a child until it dies could be seen as an accident to the criminal. 'Accident' is how a lot of criminals justify the consequences of thier actions. Ronan said it himself, it's a story thats been told many times. Everyone is prison is innocent if you ask them. As far as we know, no one was on the island for jaywalking.
But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this so I'll leave it.

I think the recurring theme of the episode was that although at one time the most serious, violent offenders were sent there, clearly that line moved back to the point where jaywalking would have gotten you sent to the island.

You also seem to forget that we witnessed an innocent woman be arrested. Why? For telling outsiders about her advanced world's dirty little secret and trying to warn them.

Here's what is agreed on by most from the looks of it.
-Sheppard should have been cloaked. So his incompedence directly lead to the PJ getting shot down. And the downed PJ blew Atlantis' cover from the Wraith. And so...Protecting Atlantis...failed.

As far as I know, flying with the cloak on all the time is not their standard prodecure...probably eats up a lot of energy. When they realized that they needed the cloak, that particular system had already been damaged. The fault is no ones.

-The Wraith will wipe out the civilization now that the island is empty. Sheppard was the cause of the island to be empty. Protecting innocents...failed.

Deal with the devil. Three Wraith cruisers. Small island population. You do the math.

-Sheppard and his team made it safely through the gate. Protecting his team... success.

Whoa! We agree here.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

The recurring argument is that the Wraith would have eventually headed for the mainland so the civilation was on borrowed time anyway. I dont see that as an excuse for Sheppard to quicken it's demise.

Oh, I see what you're trying to say, now: You'd have wanted Shep and co to do nothing; to stay and be taken by the Wraith(and the Wraith would've stayed and looked til they found the owners of the illegally parked PJ, that's for certain). Of course, then Shep would then be guilty of being captured by the enemy and giving away key information about, oh, say, the real status of Atlantis, and, while he's at it, the addy for that all-you-can-eat buffet that is the MW galaxy.

Putting criminals on the island may be cruel and unusual for some. But it's better than a needle in the arm. If given the choice of a lethal injection, or being sent to an island where you have a small(very small) chance of escaping a culling, i think most would pick the island.

Here you are, worried about a few murderers allowed to flee amongst innocent people out of dire necessity, yet you are okay with sending innocent people to live on the island with murderers like Torrell until the Wraith come? Give me lethal injection, any day.

Oh, and, BTW, Eldon said he was innocent; that his was a case of mistaken identity. He certainly didn't strike me as a murderer. It happens a lot more than you'd think, especially with a magistrate who is more than willing to bend the rules to fill a quota.

For crying out loud, the former cook was only guilty of not pleasing the Wraith's civilized palate.

As far as we know, no one was on the island for jaywalking.

Here's a portion of the dialogue between Weir and the magistrate just after the female aide told Weir what was going on:

WEIR: What crime has she committed?

MAGISTRATE: I've recently learned that Marin has been involved in a group seeking to undermine the Olesian government. She's become very adept at spinning lies to suit her organisation's treasonable agenda.

He made that boldfaced lie up on the spot. That alone is precedence for freeing all the prisoners who can make reasonable claims of innocence on that island.

-Sheppard should have been cloaked.

Question: Can a PJ dial the gate while it's cloaked? No, really, I don't know; I don't remember seeing it do that. Maybe, like the Klignon cloaking device, it has to let down the cloak to do certain things?

[GatetheWay]

Question: Can a PJ dial the gate while it's cloaked? No, really, I don't know; I don't remember seeing it do that. Maybe, like the Klignon cloaking device, it has to let down the cloak to do certain things?

Lorne and Weir dialed out from the Jumper when they were cloaked. So yes, you can dial while you're cloaked.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Lorne and Weir dialed out from the Jumper when they were cloaked. So yes, you can dial while you're cloaked.

D'OH!

Thanks. How wierd; me remembering tiny details about the rest of the ep but not that huge honkin' plot device.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

You know, I've been thinking about that cook, and....

How did magistrate explain the death of that poor man to his family and friends? How much you wanna bet that some poor shmuck like Eldon was accused of the cook's murder?

How many others may have been wrongly sentenced to the island to cover for "Shawn's" impromptu snacking?

[ShadowMaat]

I seem to recall some people pitching an absolute hissy fit last season when a terminally ill man volunteered to be Wraith food as part of an experiment. But leaving healthy, unwilling victims out to hang is OK because some of them are criminals and "deserve" it?

Or am I misunderstanding again? I'm so tired right now I'd probably miss everything short of a book being dropped on my head.

Anyway, as for the morality of it... *shrug* It isn't an easy death, but if the people would have been killed anyway, then how is it any better/worse than, say, being drawn & quartered? Or hanged? Or drowned? Humans have invented some pretty awful ways to mete out "justice". Death by Wraith doesn't seem all that much different.

Now, the innocents sent among the murderers/criminals is another matter. It's wrong to willfully convict someone of nothing, it's wrong to put them amongst those who have and WILL commit violence against them and it's wrong to leave those people to potentially be killed by the Wraith (although killed by anything is equally as bad, in my book). Sure, there's a chance the criminals will leave them alone, sure there's a chance the Wraith won't cull them, but there's also a chance that one or both things WILL happen and even survival wouldn't make for an easy life with the threat of both hanging over their heads.

Faustian deals are abundant in fiction. It's an interesting way to look at the Magistrate in Condemned and I think that whether or not Carl Binder intended for it to read that way is a little beside the point. Fans will read anything they want into what's written, regardless of whether or not the writer put it there. The Character/Relationships section is living proof of that.

[mmu_man]

Lorne and Weir dialed out from the Jumper when they were cloaked. So yes, you can dial while you're cloaked.

Not exactly.
They cloack after getting out of the gate.
From the transcript:
WEIR: Dial the Gate -- but go to stealth mode the moment we're through.

It might have to do with the way cloaking works... knowing how they replaced the city shield with cloaking, it might be of similar nature and interfere with the gate's activity (as in not letting the event horizon pass over it).

Now, wondering if it might be possible to do the opposite on jumpers, that is used the cloacking projector as a shield...

[Steve_the_Wraith]

Not exactly.
They cloack after getting out of the gate.
From the transcript:
WEIR: Dial the Gate -- but go to stealth mode the moment we're through.

It might have to do with the way cloaking works... knowing how they replaced the city shield with cloaking, it might be of similar nature and interfere with the gate's activity (as in not letting the event horizon pass over it).

Now, wondering if it might be possible to do the opposite on jumpers, that is used the cloacking projector as a shield...

I thought the exact same thing and was about to post that quote when I realised that he was refering to the end of the episode when the jumper dials the gate to allow the prisoners through and the the team


About turning the cloak into a shield, that might be possible and would be cool but it probably wouldn't be very effective and have limitations (and not just an excuse for the writers to not change the capabilities of a jumper). Like how the same cloaking module that allows a puddlejumper to fly around cloaked needs Atlantis to be a minimum power to work properly.

Edit:Just had a tought maybe thats what the wraith did in "Defiant One" - jury rigging a shield out of the cloak

[mmu_man]

I thought the exact same thing and was about to post that quote when I realised that he was refering to the end of the episode when the jumper dials the gate to allow the prisoners through and the the team

Hmm they dialed while cloaked, but they didn't get in.
I don't see why dialing by itself would be a problem, it's a radio comm or apparented.

Edit:Just had a tought maybe thats what the wraith did in "Defiant One" - jury rigging a shield out of the cloak

Oh right, forgot that one... Still we don't know if it was its own stuff (unlikely), or how he knew about this, and why we don't use it.

[GatetheWay]

I thought the exact same thing and was about to post that quote when I realised that he was refering to the end of the episode when the jumper dials the gate to allow the prisoners through and the the team.

Heh, it's she. Sorry, just a correction. You couldn't of really known.

[Steve_the_Wraith]

Heh, it's she. Sorry, just a correction. You couldn't of really known

Ooops Sorry the "Marcus" Lorne sig should've been a give away

[sparklegem]

Guess what one of the early working titles for this episode was... The clone/ not the clone story

Originally the island was full of clones of people in the city

But TPTB decided that it was too similar to a certain film in cinemas at the moment so they changed it

Wow, what are the chances of that?

About the ep, I liked it quite a lot, not only with Chewbacca and McGyver lines you already have mentioned but also with some other lines, such as the irony of McKay about death penalty on earth "Yes, certain countries, yes" . I quite like the bantering Canada-USA that have popped up from time to time (in season one I recall Shep making a comment about ice hockey or something). I like the show remaining international, and I don't even care the guy that appears in first ep of S1 with Spanish flag, has Mexican accent

I agree. I love all the international aspects of it, from McKay's Canadian comments and "ZedPM" to Radek's no-security-clearance-needed video message.

Did anyone else think that the "fissionable, non-radioactive material" the Olesia's (that's how they spelled the land in the closed captioning) were studying could be naquada? That was the first thing that came to my mind. Too bad Rodney wasn't able to check for it. Would also explain how such simple explosive devices were able to seriously damage a puddle jumper.

If my memory serves me correctly, didn't McKay ask "Is that possible?" when told about it? It can't be naquadah then, because McKay would know all about it as one of the foremost experts on the Stargate, which is itself made of naquadah.

Was their any discussion about the events of Duet this ep?

No, unfortunetly, but Stargate writers aren't that big about referencing past episode unless it relates to the plot. I just about died and went to heaven when Rodney mentioned the Intruder incident in Runner.

But he’s rapidly falling into the “too perfect” category. Despite all of his character flaws, he’s always pulling something impossible out of his hat. It becomes a case of letting one character get away with the impossible with the convenient stroke of a pen. Characters should never be that enormously competent.

In my opinion he's not as bad as Carter who can do anything from blowing up stars to decrypting computer codes for which Barrett needed a Data Retrieval Team. I was thinking along your lines, but then I thought, well, the civilization didn't make it. McKay would have been too perfect if he'd been able to save the Olesian city with amazing technology. And I remember Mr. Hewlett saying in an interview that it's not always going to work out for McKay this season, so I'm looking forward to that.

...and was there a mysterious Sheppard moment in there - when the leader told McKay he knew what *their* kind was like ...telling everyone about the situation being impossible, but later ...having a "Gargantuan" moment just to be considered a hero...(?) Either Sheppard was annoyed at that remark for McKay's sake (meaning he values Rodney more than he reveals), or something from his own past seemed to be triggered from his own thoughts (thinking pre-Atlantis military rescue days).

Interesting ideas.

- Torrell's insight into McKay that reveals Rodney may not perform as many miracles as he'd like us to believe...and Sheppard's reaction to this possibility.

So are you saying that his reaction is that he was annoyed with McKay for being like that?

I'm glad other people noticed it, because I'm really curious as to what Sheppard was thinking/the point in showing Sheppard's reaction. I don't think this commentary on Rodney's character would come as any surprise to him. Maybe he was surprised that Rodney admitted it? Or was he realizing that maybe the PJ wasn't completely broken? I'd be interested in more thoughts on it.

[Sabre]

Either Sheppard was annoyed at that remark for McKay's sake (meaning he values Rodney more than he reveals), or something from his own past seemed to be triggered from his own thoughts (thinking pre-Atlantis military rescue days).

It's lovely how the same picture leads to different ideas, I just thought Sheppard was actually shocked by the accuracy of the profile Torrell did (he must be Bethazoid (sp?) or something). The profile was so accurate, that even McKay admitted to be true sometimes, and he just don't usually admit things easily, as we can see in the "other than that" line when Ronon Dex points out the campfire.

But I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this so I'll leave it.

I don't think the point is to see this things eye to eye. I love the fact you have your own ideas and the fact we are sharing them. In a democratic country that's the common currency, the girl that tried to help Atlantis team didn't have the right to think different and was accused of treason just because she said her opinion.

As a matter of fact, IMHO one of the things that might seek the writer with this chapter, is that we discuss and think about issues like the death penalty. Where I come from, death penalty is seen as uncivilized, and I do like reading your posts in order to understand a punishment that is beyond my comprehension as a democratic and Christian guy. Other interesting thoughts (for me) popped up in my head such as which are the bars we lower here on earth to apply the death penalty. In some countries you can be hung just because being gay (Iran), in others you can be killed just because you are politically incorrect (like the girl in the show) in certain countries the money can save your butt although you are a murderer. I think it's good the discussion we all had about Sheppard's dilemma

Sabre

[derrickh]

Lets say for a moment that I'm convinced Sheppard did all the right things and is a hero since he took the best/only available option at the time to save his team.

That means the magistrate is a hero,too. And his predecesors. He's been branded as a bad guy, evil man, and so on and so forth. But he took the only available option for the greater good of the whole planet. He could either agree to send the prisoners to the island to be culled. Or have the entire society destroyed. He chose to save as many people as he could. Just like Sheppard. What was the result? A HUGE drop in crime and becuase of the lack of cullings, the civilization grew and became one of the most advanced in the galaxy. But then they ran out of prisioners. So he decided to try to save as many people as he could by a sacrificing few more. It was either that or -everyone- dies. In a battle with the Wraith, they would've been slaughtered.

The magistrate made essentially the same type of decision that Sheppard made, but instead of a few team members, he had the weight of an entire planet on his shoulders. If we're choosing heroes based on the 'greater good' then the magistrate is a legend.

D

[FoolishPleasure]

Our friend "Shawn" seemed awfully ambitious - as if he fully intended to place himself on a rather high pedestal within the Wraith society. I can see the Magistrate becoming lunch, but not the whole society. That would put a damper on Shawn's plans. After all, we didn't see the Cruiser culling people, just arriving - bringing Shawn for a nice chat with the new leaders?

Too many doors left open on this episode, which leads me to believe TPTB intend to go back to this world.

[ShadowMaat]

As for Shep, he's just following the long line of Stargate's tradition of seemingly good-willed gestures which will come back to kick everyone in the ass later.