Past and Present (311)

[GateWorld]

DISCUSS ... PAST AND PRESENT EPISODE NUMBER - 311 SG-1 discovers a planet of people with amnesia, and a familiar enemy returns to the S.G.C. wearing an unfamiliar face. Visit the Episode Guide >>

[SeaBee]

Interesting story. It was nice to see the return of Linea, a good tie up of a loose end.

[Liebestraume]

Back in Prisoners, we were never told what made Linea the mass murderer that she had been -- was it predisposition or experience? If she were criminally inclined, then surely erasing her memories would not have compeletly eradicated that threat. I felt this episode touched upon, yet ultimately failed to explore, an interesting subject.

[Newbie]

well she lost her memory before that...and looked what she did...she basicaly was the leader of her people..and a doctor and a scientist at the same time...so may be ppl around her tought her other threats

[Liebestraume]

Originally Posted by Newbie

well she lost her memory before that...and looked what she did...she basicaly was the leader of her people..and a doctor and a scientist at the same time...so may be ppl around her tought her other threats

I am not sure, but are you saying Vyusians had good reasons to trust Linea? Well, of course they do.

My question was whether or not SGC should trust her just as readily, since they knew her criminal past but (presumably) not why. If she were actually "born that way," then the memory loss would not change her nature any more than it would her genius or charisma -- she was a leader and a scientist in both episodes.

[stargate barbie]

my big problem with this episode was keira. not linea, but keira, and especially daniels relationship with her. they could have explained why he started that a bit better. or at all for that matter.
the episode did have its great moments though. loved the scene in carters lab when jack put his hands over his ears and started humming because he didn't want to hear bad news. and did carter remind anyone else of samantha from bewitched when she said "wwell..."?
i like that they actually followed up on the whole linea thing though. maybe they could have done it a smidge better, but what we got didn't completely suck. in my opinion.

[Newbie]

Originally Posted by Liebestraume

I am not sure, but are you saying Vyusians had good reasons to trust Linea? Well, of course they do.

My question was whether or not SGC should trust her just as readily, since they knew her criminal past but (presumably) not why. If she were actually "born that way," then the memory loss would not change her nature any more than it would her genius or charisma -- she was a leader and a scientist in both episodes.

Well the ppl on the planet trusted her...and when SG1 first met her on Vyusian they trusted her...so i guess...they could trust her..not having original memories

[Liebestraume]

Originally Posted by stargate barbie

... not linea, but keira, ...

But that's the interesting question, isn't it? Is she a entirely different person solely because of her altered memory? Or, to ask a slightly broader question, is a person nothing more than his/her memories? The episode kind of glosses over this point, and I thought this was the only flaw of an otherwise clever story.

[stargate barbie]

Originally Posted by Liebestraume

But that's the interesting question, isn't it? Is she a entirely different person solely because of her altered memory? Or, to ask a slightly broader question, is a person nothing more than his/her memories? The episode kind of glosses over this point, and I thought this was the only flaw of an otherwise clever story.

i think that's part of my problem. i didn't feel any of the original linea's personality come through in keira. i think perhaps the actress should have looked at and studied the original linea in "prisoners". just because keira has different memories and experiences, she must still have the same basic personality a who she once was. the other's in the episode who had also lost their memory didn't alter their personalities.
she wasn't a different person, she was the same person with a different past (or to be more acurate, practically no past).

am i explaining this right?

[Liebestraume]

Originally Posted by stargate barbie

am i explaining this right?

Yep.

[Madeleine]

Originally Posted by stargate barbie

she wasn't a different person, she was the same person with a different past (or to be more acurate, practically no past).

I believe that our pasts are what makes us who we are. It didn't seem at all untoward that Keira seemed very different to Linnea.

My theory: Linnea initially wanted to help her people too. Maybe she was brought up to believe that the people on the other continent were evil, subhuman, a threat to her own people or whatever. Somehow her upbringing and experiences convinced her that mass murder was acceptable. She was doing it for what she thought to be good reasons; "this will ensure the safety and supremacy of my country" rather than "mwahaha, I'm an evil genius, I'm going to become a mass murderer today!"

Keira had the memories only of someone who did good, surrounded by benign people and friends who loved her. Linnea had memories of harsh times in prison and of killing lots of people, and perhaps of her eyes opening to what she had done and the horror of it. She might have had memories of wars and suchlike from all through her life. That's enough to account for a lot of difference between them, to me.

[Liebestraume]

Originally Posted by Madeleine_W

I believe that our pasts are what makes us who we are.

On the other hand, I think "nature" also has a hand in a person's character make-up. There is no definitive answer as to which school of thoughts is "right," as I am sure a good case could be made for each. It would have been better, IMHO, if the show had provided some "canon" back story to explain Linea's "evilness" -- like your theory did -- so there could be this type of discussion.

[Madeleine]

Yes you're right, both schools of thought do have plenty of supporting evidence. I believe the two theories aren't completely contradictory, especially as the degree to which a person can be influenced by their experiences might in itself be genetic.

If upbringing *does* matter, then it would make sense that really dramatic events make the most difference. If anything really dramatic did happen to Linnea, then that would have implications for why Keira is very different. But perhaps waking up clueless and bereft of memories is a major enough event to shape a personality, perhaps I've been looking at this from the wrong direction.

I was trying to spot similarities in Linnea and Kiera. Apart from the obvious inclination towards scientific research, I only found one: her 'nature' seems to be to adopt a central role without being an actual leader - in both of the episodes where we meet her she has established herself as an important and sage member of the society, and even as the most powerful person in the group, but to eschew the actual wielding of the power on a day-to-day basis. The difference comes with how others see her. In Prisoners that trait got her respect through fear, but in this ep the people around her would have been so grateful for anyone acting like they knew what to do that she achieved respect through gratitude. In each case the attitudes of her cohorts towards her and of her to them would have fed off each other, leaving Linnea isolated and Keira embraced.

[GateGipsy]

Interestingly I'm near the end of reading Nature via Nurture by Matt Ridley which addresses just this subject. Having majored in Psychology at university, I was never happy with the idea that it should be either/or - either nature was responsible or nurture. I think that commonsense shows it is always going to be a mix of both. Any parent knows that a child has a definite personality from the time they're born. And as hard as you might try to treat them equally, little boys and little girls are always going to have very different characteristics.

Matt Ridley takes it a step further and puts forward a good argument that not only does nature influence nurture (born with a sporting 'gene'? then you're likely to seek out sporting environments) but that nurture influences nature. Gene's switch on and off throughout our lives. He argues that our environment could act with a gene or could cause a gene to switch on if certain conditions are met.

That is something that would explaine Linea/Kira quite well I think. Kira, without the experiences that Linea had, did not have psychotic tendancies. So perhaps, she was born with the tendancy to want to destroy as many people as possible, but that on it's own wasn't enough. She also maybe had to undergo some significant trauma in her early life in order to 'activate' that tendancy. Since Kira has no 'early' life, she should remain fairly safe. It should be too late for her to be affected by anything to that degree now. As long as she doesn't get her memory back that is!

[stargate barbie]

ya know you guys are starting to make me rethink my linnea/keira thoughts. i'm going to have to watch the episode again to try to reevaluate the character... again.
but i still didn't like her hair, or how daniel jumped into a relationship with her.

[Liebestraume]

Originally Posted by GateGipsy

Gene's switch on and off throughout our lives. He argues that our environment could act with a gene or could cause a gene to switch on if certain conditions are met.

This is a fascinating theory, and thanks for sharing. I can only assume the sequence of these on/off events makes a difference as well. (I think I'll look up the book later on Amazon. )

Suppose Linea's complete memory loss had provided the tabula rasa. A favorable environment then switched on the "good" gene(s), which in turn fed the closed-loop of nature and nurture. The Kira personality finally emerged as the result of this process. Now that Kira has experienced a happy childhood (i.e., her earliest memories), will she still turn into the evil genius if Linea's memory resurfaces? Seems it depends on if behavior is determined by the genes or by the order in which they switch on and off.

The episode has Kira choose to bury Linea's memory -- or so SGC has been convinced -- but I forgot if she did it for a clear conscience or to ward off the evil in her nature.

[Major Clanger]

Originally Posted by stargate barbie

...but i still didn't like her hair, or how daniel jumped into a relationship with her.

I hate her hair, but that's neither here nor there.

What's wrong with Daniel jumping into a relationship? That seems to me to be how Daniel is. He is on the rebound (from Sha're's death), and here is a woman who trusts him - what's to stop him falling for her?

[Selmak]

That evil chick is back.

[Selmak]

This wasn't one of my favorites.

[Selmak]

Her relationship with daniel was interesting... just after his wife died too.