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    Originally posted by fems View Post
    Okay, so I have a question. It's one of those things that I never quite seem to get.

    Is it supposed to be 'was' or 'were' in the following sentence?

    "This area of the base was restricted and only authorized personnel such as himself w... allowed to roam these corridors."

    I automatically go for 'was' in this case because to me 'were' just doesn't sound right. I know... that's not a very correct way to decide what words to use but overall that's how I write and basically how I learned English so it's worked for me in the past.

    When google-ing I came across something similar and basically the answer is the following:

    "Personnel," like "staff," can be either singular or plural, depending on whether or not the group is acting as one or as a group of singular, countable individuals.

    But I don't know how that make that distinction. In the case of authorized personnel I'm inclined to say it should be treated as a group acting as one and not a group of singular, countable individuals which basically means it should be 'was' in my example.

    Thoughts anyone?
    The important element in this is "personnel" (plural) rather than "himself" (singular), so you'd have to make your choice of was/were agree with the plural element. So "were" is the correct word to choose.

    Basically, the test for this is as follows:

    You are using the clause "such as himself" to further illustrate "authorized personnel". Therefore, you could remove "such as himself" from the sentence without changing the sentence's meaning. Doing so would automatically make "were" the correct term, since it isn't proper English (Brit or American) to say "authorized personnel was". Because the presence or absence of the modifying/illustrative clause doesn't change the meaning of the sentence, "were" is also correct even when that clause is included.

    (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
    Sum, ergo scribo...

    My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
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    Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

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      I know it's about personnel, but since that's a group of people it confuses me. It equals staff, crew and team which, like personnel (according to a few online dictionaries) can be singular as well as plural these days. Some even say personnels is the plural of personnel (and yes, my spell check is indicating that is incorrect), I guess kinda like people and peoples.

      For team (like when using SG-1), staff and crew I would also use was instead of were, which again depends on what I posted earlier:

      "Personnel," like "staff," can be either singular or plural, depending on whether or not the group is acting as one or as a group of singular, countable individuals.

      But it's possible I'm being influenced by my native language in which a group/team/staff/personnel etc is singular. It's not helping that my grammar check isn't telling me it's wrong either (and yes I know that isn't very reliable either, but still).
      Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
      Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
      On FFnet or AO3


      My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

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        Originally posted by fems View Post
        I know it's about personnel, but since that's a group of people it confuses me. It equals staff, crew and team which, like personnel (according to a few online dictionaries) can be singular as well as plural these days. Some even say personnels is the plural of personnel (and yes, my spell check is indicating that is incorrect), I guess kinda like people and peoples.
        In English, "personnel" is always plural. It is never singular. You cannot say "a personnel" the same way you might say "a team". A team is a group of people, yes, and as a unit it can be singular, but personnel has no singular form.

        Likewise, "staff" is always plural in English as well, when it is referring to people. In English, "a staff" would mean something like a walking stick or a weapon, never a person. If you wish to refer to a single member of a staff of people, you would say "a staff member".

        Does that help?

        ETA: I forget; what is your native language again? Knowing that might help some of us to help you, since it is entirely possible that one or more of us may be literate in your language.

        (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
        Sum, ergo scribo...

        My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
        sigpic
        now also appearing on DeviantArt
        Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

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          I can't do anything but agree with SF_and_Coffee. Were is definitely the correct choice.
          My Stargate fan fiction @ FF.net | NEW: When Cassie Calls Teal'c.

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            I know there is no such thing as 'a personnel' or 'a staff' (when talking about people, not the object), but I think the singular vs plural is... like when you have two or more companies and thus at least twice as many personnel/staff, but do you have two or more (different) staff(s) and personnel(s) too?

            You can see here, here and here what I was referring to earlier, with it being singular or plural.

            And my native language is Dutch; there aren't that many fic writers that are and that visit in this part of the forum as far as I can tell.
            Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
            Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
            On FFnet or AO3


            My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

            Comment


              Originally posted by fems View Post
              I know there is no such thing as 'a personnel' or 'a staff' (when talking about people, not the object), but I think the singular vs plural is... like when you have two or more companies and thus at least twice as many personnel/staff, but do you have two or more (different) staff(s) and personnel(s) too?
              "Personnel" is never used that way in English. "Staff" might be used that way, but it's an irregular and slightly improper usage that would not affect the situation you originally presented.

              You can see here, here and
              Accurate as to "staff", but "personnel" is a different situation.

              here what I was referring to earlier, with it being singular or plural.
              There are errors in the answer given to this one, because "personnel" is not singular. It is a collective noun, yes, but one that always requires treatment as a plural when pairing it with verbs, etc. There simply is no singular form.

              To put it simply: "staff" and "personnel" do not have identical usage and requirements in English.

              And my native language is Dutch; there aren't that many fic writers that are and that visit in this part of the forum as far as I can tell.
              Ah. Okay, I've no idea how many there might be, but you're probably right about that.

              (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
              Sum, ergo scribo...

              My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
              sigpic
              now also appearing on DeviantArt
              Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

              Comment


                This actually brings up a subject I've been meaning to get some opinions on.

                Example: A character in Doctor Who, Canton Delaware, asks the question, "How long have Scotland Yard had this?"

                This is a direct quote from the episode "The Impossible Astronaut." Since then, I've encountered similar grammar used on the term "The Silence." Just to clarify, the term Silence has been used to describe both a species as well as a greater organization (a fanatical religious movement) led by said species.

                In either case, the same singular/plural issue comes up. I want to be consistent with Doctor Who canon but at the same time I also want to be as grammatically correct as possible. So with the two following sentences, which one would be more valid?

                The Silence aren't interested in spiritual truth. vs. The Silence isn't interested in spiritual truth.

                or as alternatives

                The Silence have no interest in spiritual truth. vs. The Silence has no interest in spiritual truth.


                Consistency in how the term "The Silence" is rather important because in the fic I'm writing (Broken Silence) there is an alliance, a countermovement to the Silence called Free Will. I've tried similar grammatical permutations on the term and the results are interesting:

                If Free Will aren't prepared to do what is necessary to ensure victory, what hope do we have? vs. If Free Will isn't prepared to do what is necessary to ensure victory, what hope do we have?


                I welcome any thoughts y'all have to share on this one. Thanks in advance.
                Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 08 January 2012, 03:49 AM.
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                  You're writing in the fandom for a British series, so it seems to me that you ought to use the construction that fits that version of the language. As far as I can tell, Brits will use "are" when they're talking about a collective entity, which the Silence and Free Will both seem to be.

                  Your best bet is probably to bear in mind exactly who is doing the speaking or, alternatively, the narration when you're writing non-dialogue -- ask yourself whose POV you're writing from at any given point, because that's whose head you are in and the narration will be in that person's manner of verbal thought and thus can be treated similarly to dialogue. If the person speaking, or the person through whose eyes and mind we are observing the events in question, is a Brit, you'll want to use British constructions. If the person is American, use American.

                  This will by necessity mean there is some overall inconsistency in the linguistic style of your story, especially if you "head-hop" and tell different portions from different characters' points of view, but the more important element is to achieve internal consistency within each individual character's use of language.

                  Make sense?

                  (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
                  Sum, ergo scribo...

                  My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
                  sigpic
                  now also appearing on DeviantArt
                  Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

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                    Originally posted by SF_and_Coffee View Post
                    You're writing in the fandom for a British series, so it seems to me that you ought to use the construction that fits that version of the language. As far as I can tell, Brits will use "are" when they're talking about a collective entity, which the Silence and Free Will both seem to be.

                    Your best bet is probably to bear in mind exactly who is doing the speaking or, alternatively, the narration when you're writing non-dialogue -- ask yourself whose POV you're writing from at any given point, because that's whose head you are in and the narration will be in that person's manner of verbal thought and thus can be treated similarly to dialogue. If the person speaking, or the person through whose eyes and mind we are observing the events in question, is a Brit, you'll want to use British constructions. If the person is American, use American.

                    This will by necessity mean there is some overall inconsistency in the linguistic style of your story, especially if you "head-hop" and tell different portions from different characters' points of view, but the more important element is to achieve internal consistency within each individual character's use of language.

                    Make sense?
                    Thanks for the input. The main American characters in Broken Silence do indeed use American syntax when it comes to talking about collective entities in their dialogue. I wasn't so sure about how to render the tenses for the British characters in certain cases so I defaulted to using their word choices in the show. The narrator of the story is American so he almost never refers to the Silence using the plural form.
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                      So... we seem to have done a fair bit with grammar, spelling, punctuation and other elements here. Anybody want to tackle any of the other technical/mechanical elements of writing, and if so, shall we do it here or make another thread for it?

                      I'm thinking in terms of things like POV, what narrative voice, the pros and cons of writing in 1st person or the various permutations of 3rd person (omniscient 3rd, limited 3rd single-POV, limited 3rd multiple-POV, etc.) and related or similar topics. This all comes to mind because at the moment I find myself helping both a fellow fanfic author via e-mail and a fellow author of original fiction in meatspace and we've been talking about things like this. It could make for an interesting discussion, finding out who prefers to write in which styles and why.

                      (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
                      Sum, ergo scribo...

                      My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
                      sigpic
                      now also appearing on DeviantArt
                      Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by SF_and_Coffee View Post
                        So... we seem to have done a fair bit with grammar, spelling, punctuation and other elements here. Anybody want to tackle any of the other technical/mechanical elements of writing, and if so, shall we do it here or make another thread for it?

                        I'm thinking in terms of things like POV, what narrative voice, the pros and cons of writing in 1st person or the various permutations of 3rd person (omniscient 3rd, limited 3rd single-POV, limited 3rd multiple-POV, etc.) and related or similar topics. This all comes to mind because at the moment I find myself helping both a fellow fanfic author via e-mail and a fellow author of original fiction in meatspace and we've been talking about things like this. It could make for an interesting discussion, finding out who prefers to write in which styles and why.
                        Personally I wouldn't mind a new thread for things like those. It would also make it easier for newcomers to the (sub)forum to find, instead of thinking that hey, maybe it's being discussed in the grammar/spelling/punctuation thread!
                        Unmade Plans (WIP: 11/20):
                        Sam's life takes a turn in an unexpected direction when she's faced with an unplanned pregnancy. The decision to keep the baby and raise it on her own will alter her life forever. Relationships are put to the test, especially the one between her and Jack. She doesn't know what to expect from him and he surprises her at every turn.
                        On FFnet or AO3


                        My S/J fics can be found on FFnet and AO3. I also tweet and tumble about the ship and my writing/stories.

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                          Originally posted by fems View Post
                          Personally I wouldn't mind a new thread for things like those. It would also make it easier for newcomers to the (sub)forum to find, instead of thinking that hey, maybe it's being discussed in the grammar/spelling/punctuation thread!
                          Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm going to start a new thread for that topic, and ask the mods to append these last few posts to it.

                          (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
                          Sum, ergo scribo...

                          My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
                          sigpic
                          now also appearing on DeviantArt
                          Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

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                            Done -> The Mechanics of Writing Fiction.
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                              Thanks!

                              (Yes, I'm female. Okay?)
                              Sum, ergo scribo...

                              My own site ** FF.net * All That We Leave Behind * Symbiotica ** AO3
                              sigpic
                              now also appearing on DeviantArt
                              Explore Colonel Frank Cromwell's odyssey after falling through the Stargate in Season Two's A Matter of Time, and follow Jack's search for him. Significant Tok'ra supporting characters and a human culture drawn from the annals of history. Book One of the series By Honor Bound.

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                                Y'welcome !
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