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is TV especially sci-fi, a lot more morally ambiguous then it was over 10 years?

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    is TV especially sci-fi, a lot more morally ambiguous then it was over 10 years?

    I can never tell if this is a shift that's actually happened or just one I've just imagined as I've got older and more cynical

    #2
    I prefer to think it's more morally complex - it strives to create a much more realistic portrayal of events, acknowledging that the 'square jawed all-American hero' does not exist, and that good men can do bad things and vice versa.

    I for one appreciate this. It's not morally ambiguous but focuses on the actions, rather than the person.

    In more morally complex television, a man is good not because of what 'side' he's on, but how he behaves.

    I'd suggest that this could stem from having moved away from the Cold War mentality that dogged the latter half of the 20th century. Back then, even in the real world we had overly simplified views of the good guys and the bad guys. Today's threat & security environment is acknowledged as much more complex than the manner in which the Cold War was perceived, so naturally as is our entertainment.


    "Five Rounds Rapid"

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      #3
      Watch an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, then watch an episode of X science-fiction show produced today. In short, yes, it has become morally ambiguous. However, this is not limited to science-fiction. TV drama in general has shifted to moral ambiguity, because it's trendy and it sells.

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        #4
        This is an interesting topic.

        Originally posted by Flyboy View Post
        I prefer to think it's more morally complex - it strives to create a much more realistic portrayal of events, acknowledging that the 'square jawed all-American hero' does not exist, and that good men can do bad things and vice versa.

        I for one appreciate this. It's not morally ambiguous but focuses on the actions, rather than the person.

        In more morally complex television, a man is good not because of what 'side' he's on, but how he behaves.

        I'd suggest that this could stem from having moved away from the Cold War mentality that dogged the latter half of the 20th century. Back then, even in the real world we had overly simplified views of the good guys and the bad guys. Today's threat & security environment is acknowledged as much more complex than the manner in which the Cold War was perceived, so naturally as is our entertainment.
        I agree with all of this and I have to admit myself shows that have characters like this are usually my favorite, because really, the world isn't black and white and I think it's great that the world in the TV-show isn't either.
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          #5
          Originally posted by Flyboy View Post
          I prefer to think it's more morally complex - it strives to create a much more realistic portrayal of events, acknowledging that the 'square jawed all-American hero' does not exist, and that good men can do bad things and vice versa.

          I for one appreciate this. It's not morally ambiguous but focuses on the actions, rather than the person.

          In more morally complex television, a man is good not because of what 'side' he's on, but how he behaves.

          I'd suggest that this could stem from having moved away from the Cold War mentality that dogged the latter half of the 20th century. Back then, even in the real world we had overly simplified views of the good guys and the bad guys. Today's threat & security environment is acknowledged as much more complex than the manner in which the Cold War was perceived, so naturally as is our entertainment.
          Flyboy has hit it dead on.

          It just entertainment reflecting the uncertain times we live in. Where enemies are not as clear cut any more, where good and bad has become so merge together that many people can no longer tell the difference between the two.

          I think it had lead to better story telling, less to 2d characters and more divers worlds being created by giving more freedoms for writers.

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            #6
            tv shows change with the times. today as people said the world isn't black and white. i personally find the characters who aren't good or bad to be the interesting characters.
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              #7
              Morally complex, for sure.
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                #8
                What's wrong with black-and-white morality, and why can't there be the all-American hero?

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                  #9
                  I think it's a natural shift in the environment; I mean morally ambiguity provides more characterization and depth then the usual good/evil characters. While it worked in shows like Star Trek: TNG; it doesn't seem to work later on where shows like Lost seemed to signal a shift towards moral ambiguity and more dramatic situations.

                  Sure, there may have been moral ambiguity in the 90's but it was buried between the mainstream good/evil. I guess it's all a matter of the who can make the show that changes it all.
                  Back from the grave.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Snowman37 View Post
                    What's wrong with black-and-white morality, and why can't there be the all-American hero?
                    Boring. Also being a All America Hero limits your market to America. Given the costs of projects are increasing, international sales are becoming more important for studios and stations. Which making sure a show as a mix casts is important and making them care more about the world rather than just America is important in getting and keeping foreign viewer involve with the series.
                    Last edited by knowles2; 01 July 2012, 01:26 AM.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Snowman37 View Post
                      What's wrong with black-and-white morality, and why can't there be the all-American hero?
                      Because it's simplistic garbage that does not reflect the world we live in, or to be honest the world at any point. And I say this as someone who does believes that even today, counties like the U.S and the U.K are the "good guys," but we aren’t angels by any stretch of the imagination.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                        Because it's simplistic garbage that does not reflect the world we live in, or to be honest the world at any point. And I say this as someone who does believes that even today, counties like the U.S and the U.K are the "good guys," but we aren’t angels by any stretch of the imagination.
                        That anywhere near Buckinghamshire?
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ukko View Post
                          That anywhere near Buckinghamshire?
                          Oh bugger

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by knowles2 View Post
                            Boring. Also being a All America Hero limits your market to America. Given the costs of projects are increasing, international sales are becoming more and more important for studios and stations. Which making sure a show as a mix casts in important and making care more about the world rather than just America is important in keeping foreign viewer more involve with the series.
                            How is it boring? I find moral ambiguity boring, because it simply does not relate to everyday life as I experience it. What would be more interesting would be to mix up the cast. You could have the all American hero, some morally ambiguous Americans, perhaps a brilliant foreigner (Russian, British, Indian, Asian, you get the idea), perhaps write in some Hispanic Americans who've lived in the USA for generations, but deal with illegal immigration based racism when their grandparents were born Americans. You get the idea. As for morality, right is right, and wrong is wrong. Granted, it also depends on the TV show. A spy show, for example, will be filled with moral ambiguity. A Star Trek spin-off should feature the best of the best, men and women who study, aide, and defend the galaxy. A drama could feature everyday folk, some good, some bad, and some in between. I can understand that having everyone be perfect heroes can be boring. However, having everyone be morally ambiguous is just as unrealistic and boring.

                            Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                            Because it's simplistic garbage that does not reflect the world we live in, or to be honest the world at any point.
                            Whoa, whoa, whoa. Simplistic garbage? What you call garbage, I call idealistic escapism, providing characters whom the viewers can look up to. It may not be realistic, but hey... neither's Stargate.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Snowman37 View Post

                              Whoa, whoa, whoa. Simplistic garbage? What you call garbage, I call idealistic escapism, providing characters whom the viewers can look up to. It may not be realistic, but hey... neither's Stargate.
                              Yes and Stargate given 10 to 20 years will be forgotten. It failed to break new ground in the genre like Star Trek did, nor did it push any boundaries. It was good escapist fun, but that's it. It will not be a cultural cornerstone that shows like the Wire or the Sopranos have become.

                              Unlike some of this people on the thread, I don't believe that shows have become more complex and ambiguous because of the times we live in, instead I think it's a natural process any fictional medium goes through. Novels, theatre, films, comic books and graphic novels, tv and now even videogames, develop and mature over time. They start to experiment with addressing darker and more complex themes and they start to attract audiences that want more of it. Further these tend to be better made than escapist shows, more effort and care is put into every part like the writing, directing, acting etc.

                              While occasionally I still want a bit of escapism, my appetite for those types of shows have diminished greatly. You can't go back to watching cop shows like CSI after watching something like the Wire, not only because of the Wire's realism, but because the show is put together just show much better. And I don't look up to characters in shows like Stargate or CSI, because they clearly do not inhabit a world that is in any way similar to our own. I look up to the more moral characters in the Wire because, while they may still be deeply flawed, their morality actually means something. They have to deal with moral conundrums, and their own personnel flaws and they have to overcome them to make moral decisions. The characters in stargate, in contrast, are barely more than caricatures, they don't have many flaws, and they are never faced with a moral problem that isn't either is forgotten about in 5 minutes or has some easy way out. This makes them seem less like real people to me, and as a result I care about them much less. While in the Wire the more moral characters may make mistakes, they may even make deeply immoral decisions sometimes, but the fact they actually have to make an effort to overcome these problems rather than breezing through everything, that makes them seem more real to me, that actually makes them more likeable to me and that makes me care about what happens to the characters much more, improving the show for me.

                              The shows that actually try and be something more than escapism are, I find, infinitely more compelling, I actually care about the plot and how it affects the characters. These shows provide me with a richer, more satisfying and altogether more enjoyable experience than those shows that never want to amount to more than escapism.

                              In the end the best analogy is this, why would you go back to cheap hamburgers when you can have prime rib?

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