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is TV especially sci-fi, a lot more morally ambiguous then it was over 10 years?

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    #16
    Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Yes and Stargate given 10 to 20 years will be forgotten. It failed to break new ground in the genre like Star Trek did, nor did it push any boundaries. It was good escapist fun, but that's it. It will not be a cultural cornerstone that shows like the Wire or the Sopranos have become.

    Unlike some of this people on the thread, I don't believe that shows have become more complex and ambiguous because of the times we live in, instead I think it's a natural process any fictional medium goes through. Novels, theatre, films, comic books and graphic novels, tv and now even videogames, develop and mature over time. They start to experiment with addressing darker and more complex themes and they start to attract audiences that want more of it. Further these tend to be better made than escapist shows, more effort and care is put into every part like the writing, directing, acting etc.

    While occasionally I still want a bit of escapism, my appetite for those types of shows have diminished greatly. You can't go back to watching cop shows like CSI after watching something like the Wire, not only because of the Wire's realism, but because the show is put together just show much better. And I don't look up to characters in shows like Stargate or CSI, because they clearly do not inhabit a world that is in any way similar to our own. I look up to the more moral characters in the Wire because, while they may still be deeply flawed, their morality actually means something. They have to deal with moral conundrums, and their own personnel flaws and they have to overcome them to make moral decisions. The characters in stargate, in contrast, are barely more than caricatures, they don't have many flaws, and they are never faced with a moral problem that isn't either is forgotten about in 5 minutes or has some easy way out. This makes them seem less like real people to me, and as a result I care about them much less. While in the Wire the more moral characters may make mistakes, they may even make deeply immoral decisions sometimes, but the fact they actually have to make an effort to overcome these problems rather than breezing through everything, that makes them seem more real to me, that actually makes them more likeable to me and that makes me care about what happens to the characters much more, improving the show for me.

    The shows that actually try and be something more than escapism are, I find, infinitely more compelling, I actually care about the plot and how it affects the characters. These shows provide me with a richer, more satisfying and altogether more enjoyable experience than those shows that never want to amount to more than escapism.

    In the end the best analogy is this, why would you go back to cheap hamburgers when you can have prime rib?
    I think you are being to dismissive of escapist shows
    in my view the art of creating a good escapist show has to do with shaking people out of their sense of what's possible, they do this by presenting the viewer with a worlds, situations and characters the well seeming fantastical still seem as though they could really exist, are plausible and within the bounds of real human behaviour, there by making people feel like their constricted sense of what the world is has been removed
    The ultimate point of it is to allow people for at lest a time to escape their constricted adult way of seeing the world and view it one more in the far more childlike way where it seems as though much more is possible. It just so happens that people like viewing the world this way and end up using shows and books that allow them to almost like drugs

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      #17
      Originally posted by slimjim View Post
      I think you are being to dismissive of escapist shows
      in my view the art of creating a good escapist show has to do with shaking people out of their sense of what's possible, they do this by presenting the viewer with a worlds, situations and characters the well seeming fantastical still seem as though they could really exist, are plausible and within the bounds of real human behaviour, there by making people feel like their constricted sense of what the world is has been removed
      The ultimate point of it is to allow people for at lest a time to escape their constricted adult way of seeing the world and view it one more in the far more childlike way where it seems as though much more is possible. It just so happens that people like viewing the world this way and end up using shows and books that allow them to almost like drugs
      I tend to dismiss escapist shows precisely because of their childlike view of the world. It's stupid, simplistic and immature, and people that think like that tend not to go very far in life.

      That doesn't mean that I dismiss fantasy or scifi, or that I need every show to have some kind of social message. But I do like my shows to be aware of the reality of how the world works. That's why I like a show like Farscape, which actually shows the mental damage of Crichton's journey through space. His "adventures" have left him with a lot of trauma, and it makes him seem like a real character, someone I can care about and empathise with. Compare that to Star Trek, which would often slip into "look it's the future and everybody and everything's wonderful," well I don't give a toss about them then.

      It's also clear that with the declining number of escapist shows, and the rise of much darker, grimmer fare, that the general tv audience desire for escapism is in decline and they are much more interested in more mature shows.

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        #18
        Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
        I tend to dismiss escapist shows precisely because of their childlike view of the world.
        when we're children we see the world as full of endless possibilities, when we get older in order to deal with and address the problems of the world around us we slowly loose the ability to imagine that any thing besides it could exist
        just because the limited "adult" view of the world is a pragmatically useful one for most of the human race doesn't mean it's the correct view of the world
        Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
        It's stupid, simplistic and immature, and people that think like that tend not to go very far in life.
        that's because most people are to stupid to function and make decisions unless they have a set of boundaries imposed on them in which to function and make decisions
        Last edited by slimjim; 23 March 2012, 11:54 AM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by slimjim View Post
          when we're children we see the world as full of endless possibilities, when we get older in order to deal with and address the problems of the world around us we slowly loose the ability to imagine that any thing besides it could exist
          just because the limited "adult" view of the world is a pragmatically useful one for most of the human race doesn't mean it's the correct view of the world

          that's because most people are to stupid to function and make decisions unless they have a set of boundaries imposed on them in which to function and make decisions
          Yeah, I think you and I have quite a difference of opinion on how the world works. Children have a simplistic and incomplete world view because they have yet to fully understand or truly grasp the nature of the world. I don't think children see the world as endless possibilities. I think that they're simple and narrow minded view of the world actually limits the possibilities they can imagine.

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            #20
            Escapism does have its place, but I tend to prefer shows with flawed characters. They don't need to be morally ambiguous necessarily, because it's possible to make bad decisions even when you know what you should do, and sometimes there are only bad choices. I also like shows where the supposed bad guys do good things and vice versa (BSG is an example, the Colonials did a lot of quite terrible things in the name of necessity, and some of the cylons turned out quite decent in the end).

            Even in straightforward battles of good and evil I tend to enjoy the ambiguous characters most, with LotR as an example my favorite characters were Boromir, who almost brought ruin on the Fellowship because he was weak, and Gollum who was undoubtedly the most complex character in that setting.
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              #21
              Originally posted by Flyboy View Post
              I prefer to think it's more morally complex - it strives to create a much more realistic portrayal of events, acknowledging that the 'square jawed all-American hero' does not exist, and that good men can do bad things and vice versa.

              I for one appreciate this. It's not morally ambiguous but focuses on the actions, rather than the person.

              In more morally complex television, a man is good not because of what 'side' he's on, but how he behaves.

              I'd suggest that this could stem from having moved away from the Cold War mentality that dogged the latter half of the 20th century. Back then, even in the real world we had overly simplified views of the good guys and the bad guys. Today's threat & security environment is acknowledged as much more complex than the manner in which the Cold War was perceived, so naturally as is our entertainment.
              Excellent insights, especially on the possible ties to the Cold War. I also appreciate more complex--"grey"--characters as they're considerably more true-to-life. Such characters are especially prevalent in situations involving politics. Remember the big debate the SGU episode "Seizure" caused? I personally loved that episode because it showed the darker, more realistic side of military operations. Black ops, which is what the Stargate program essentially is, is not a pretty scene sometimes.

              If Stargate Command had been successful in establishing a wormhole to Destiny, the whole thing could've been chalked up to "the ends justify the means." But they weren't successful. The whole thing almost literally blew up in their faces and the situation was considered a terrible political debacle instead. If SGU had continued, I would've wanted to see the political fallout from that situation because, well, such things interest me.

              Originally posted by Zombies Rise from the Sea View Post
              I think it's a natural shift in the environment; I mean morally ambiguity provides more characterization and depth then the usual good/evil characters. While it worked in shows like Star Trek: TNG; it doesn't seem to work later on where shows like Lost seemed to signal a shift towards moral ambiguity and more dramatic situations.

              Sure, there may have been moral ambiguity in the 90's but it was buried between the mainstream good/evil. I guess it's all a matter of the who can make the show that changes it all.
              Babylon 5 had its "grey" moments too. In season 4, Sheridan used 30 telepaths as weapons to easily disable 30 warships without a firefight. That maneuver ostensibly saved nearly 30,000 people. However, in doing so, he condemned 30 telepaths (who were a danger to themselves and others) to death. Such moments happened in Deep Space 9 as well, especially when Capt. Sisko deceived the Romulans into entering the war against the Dominion. That was some excellent writing and character building for both series because it showed the lead characters not being the "white knight." Both characters were involved massive conflicts and had to resort to extra-legal means to resolve their situations for the greater good.

              Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
              Because it's simplistic garbage that does not reflect the world we live in, or to be honest the world at any point. And I say this as someone who does believes that even today, counties like the U.S and the U.K are the "good guys," but we aren’t angels by any stretch of the imagination.
              Very well said. I know some deputies and park rangers at work who are really great people but are ridiculously lax in their application of the law and are arguably not doing their jobs as they should. Conversely, there's a couple of rangers and deputies who come off as not the nicest people sometimes but are absolutely top-notch in their zeal and performance. They're no angels but they're definitely the good guys.

              I'm not a fan of "black and white" characters at all these days. That's not the way the world is. My idea of escapism is Game of Thrones on HBO and GRRM's books.
              Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 24 March 2012, 12:32 AM.
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                #22
                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                Yeah, I think you and I have quite a difference of opinion on how the world works. Children have a simplistic and incomplete world view because they have yet to fully understand or truly grasp the nature of the world. I don't think children see the world as endless possibilities. I think that they're simple and narrow minded view of the world actually limits the possibilities they can imagine.
                "Children have a simplistic and incomplete world view" no they have an incomplete version of your world view

                "I don't think children see the world as endless possibilities. I think that they're simple and narrow minded view of the world actually limits the possibilities they can imagine" they do it's just that the tragedy of childhood is that at this stage when you have limitless imagination you lack the necessary skills to do any thing with it

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                  #23
                  People look for different things in entertainment and enjoy different things. Can't we just leave it at that before this thread deteriorates into a fight?
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                    #24
                    Originally posted by maneth View Post
                    People look for different things in entertainment and enjoy different things. Can't we just leave it at that before this thread deteriorates into a fight?
                    it's not about entertainment and enjoyment, it's about art

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                      #25
                      I wouldn't say TV has become morally ambiguous...I think Morality has become morally ambiguous
                      "I'm being extremely clever up here and there's no one to stand around looking impressed! What's the point in having you all?!" - The Doctor (#11)

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by maneth View Post
                        People look for different things in entertainment and enjoy different things. Can't we just leave it at that before this thread deteriorates into a fight?
                        No! CAPITAL LETTERS WITH TOO MANY EXCLAMATION MARKS!!!!!!! ANGER!!!
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                          it's not about entertainment and enjoyment, it's about art
                          Same thing applies.
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                            #28
                            Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                            "Children have a simplistic and incomplete world view" no they have an incomplete version of your world view

                            "I don't think children see the world as endless possibilities. I think that they're simple and narrow minded view of the world actually limits the possibilities they can imagine" they do it's just that the tragedy of childhood is that at this stage when you have limitless imagination you lack the necessary skills to do any thing with it
                            Children do not have an infinite imagination. They are for the most part, selfish little hedonists, defining good as things that help them or that they enjoy, and evil as that negatively impacts their own pleasure.

                            Their imaginations are very much centred on themselves and limited. How to explain concepts like Transhumanism or the technological singularity to a child? How do they even grasp the implications of those concepts?

                            As I said I think you and I have wildly differing viewpoints on the way the world works, or how children think. But to get back to the original point of the thread, as I said in an earlier post,
                            Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                            It's also clear that with the declining number of escapist shows, and the rise of much darker, grimmer fare, that the general tv audience desire for escapism is in decline and they are much more interested in more mature shows.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by maneth View Post
                              People look for different things in entertainment and enjoy different things. Can't we just leave it at that before this thread deteriorates into a fight?
                              We are not having a fight, we are having a mature discussion.

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                                #30
                                I hope it stays that way.
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