BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[Mister Oragahn]

1st. I apologize for my vagueness yes your right there are many ways to decimate a planet's surface. A lot of accounts of ISDs capability as such are vague as well.

2nd. Those weren't the pics I was referring to. If I had a scanner I would upload the picture. The picture shows several significant impact craters, although I doubt it covers the entire planet's surface probably just the inhabited areas.

3rd. Greivous flagship while it did seem to have a weak spot, shields that were able to be destroyed to gain access to hanger, it had a huge blast door that very quickly shut to compensate for lack of shielding, not to mention the hanger was flanked by many guns. I think they were lucky to get in. The hanger was unusually large to serve in a carrier role, which was a modification to the normal Providence class. So this weakness probably isn't shared by its sister ships. Since it is only a carrier/destroyer I think its rep of taking down several Venator Star Destroyers is impressive.

You're right about the closing doors, though considering what happened in Vector Prime as an example of the limit of materials in SW, if you accept the EU, it won't do much against high velocity rail rounds, even less against nulcear ordnance.

Much like Stargate, SW ships largely rely on shields.

Well, in Stargate, a ha'tak can hit the surface of an ocean when falling like a rock without suffering much damage, and let's not get started on the uber Wraith cruiser sitting on the seabed not far from Atlantis for millenias.

The firepower of the Invisible hand is supposedly this.

Each shot from the point-defense ion cannons released as much heat as a 4.8 megaton bomb, while the maximum yield of one of the quad turbolasers was equivalent to a magnitude 10 groundquake. [1]

So far I found that a magnitude 8 earthquake is equal to six million tons of TNT. Which is like 25,104 terajoules of energy. If my math is correct which it sometimes isn't. So that is quite a bit of power, I'm sure an ISD has far more capability than an antiquated Providence class. 6,000 kiloton warhead. But you look at a comparison to nuclear warheads it is about in the mid range. About 3,600 kilotons under Ivy Mike. The largest nuke ever tested was 50,000 if you increase that with by 100x using Naquadah 5,000,000 kiloton warhead. That is like 833 shots from a quad turbolaser. I'm sure a Star Destroyer can take a ton of punishment but that would be quite a bit. Considering that a Daedalus class can shoot far more than one nuke and not accounting for the rail gun fire. It adds up. Not to mention the fact that an ISD has several weak areas on it despite its power.

In conclusion I believe that a Daedalus class has both the firepower and the manueverability to take out a Star Destroyer. But that is the conclusion I had already come to a long time ago. I just rationalized it better.

IIRC, magnitude 10 is around the teraton range.
May I ask where does that quote came from? It sounds like typical ICS stuff, the latest two ones which are filled energy, firepower and shielding figures which are always three to six orders of magnitude above truth.

It is literally mad that while there already was a vast amount of data pointing to much more reasonanle yields, not even counting the films themselves (!) which never supported that nonsense, the simple fact that one author (Curtis Saxton) managed to lay his crap in a book, gave enough munitions for ******s to automatically ditch the larger rest, and instead favour their own wet dreams *drool drool* *boom boom* oh noes my pants, nevermind my mom will buy me more.
Sweet Jeez.

What's more pathetic is the lattice of lies and wishful thinking they rely on to claim that the ICS are higher in the "canon"... totally ignoring Leeland's Chee's words and the continuity hierarchy they use at LFL to sort out material.

Funny how this same people harped on my ass because I was a purist and I should use the canon policy rolled out by Leeland Chee, the exact same one they willfully cheery pick from and twist to fit their agendas.

As far as canon goes, this same Mr. Chee did admit in one of his latest canon related interventions at SW.com's boards (I think it was there), the existence of two canons. The purist one and the EU compliant one.

[the_dark_light]

Of course an ISD would also be attacking with TIE-Fighters. While TIE vs F302 is another debate entirely, even a full air group of 16 fighters would be overwhelmed by the sheer number of fighters an ISD can carry.

I wonder if a 304 can fit in an ISD hanger bay?

[Mister Oragahn]

Of course an ISD would also be attacking with TIE-Fighters. While TIE vs F302 is another debate entirely, even a full air group of 16 fighters would be overwhelmed by the sheer number of fighters an ISD can carry.

I wonder if a 304 can fit in an ISD hanger bay?

A 304's railguns are very good point defense systems. They are meant to also be able to shoot down enemies as small as fighters, and deal heavy damage to bigger structures.

Plus remember Sheppard blasting a complete wing of darts with some kind of fragmentation missile (or maybe that was simple debris).

However, it's correct that 16 fighters wouldn't be enough, but there's no point sending them.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

A 304's railguns are very good point defense systems. They are meant to also be able to shoot down enemies as small as fighters, and deal heavy damage to bigger structures.

Plus remember Sheppard blasting a complete wing of darts with some kind of fragmentation missile (or maybe that was simple debris).

However, it's correct that 16 fighters wouldn't be enough, but there's no point sending them.

The 302s would be slaughtered if they were launched. I agree though I think the 304 could hold out pretty easy against the Ties.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

You're right about the closing doors, though considering what happened in Vector Prime as an example of the limit of materials in SW, if you accept the EU, it won't do much against high velocity rail rounds, even less against nulcear ordnance.

Much like Stargate, SW ships largely rely on shields.

Well, in Stargate, a ha'tak can hit the surface of an ocean when falling like a rock without suffering much damage, and let's not get started on the uber Wraith cruiser sitting on the seabed not far from Atlantis for millenias.



IIRC, magnitude 10 is around the teraton range.
May I ask where does that quote came from? It sounds like typical ICS stuff, the latest two ones which are filled energy, firepower and shielding figures which are always three to six orders of magnitude above truth.

It is literally mad that while there already was a vast amount of data pointing to much more reasonanle yields, not even counting the films themselves (!) which never supported that nonsense, the simple fact that one author (Curtis Saxton) managed to lay his crap in a book, gave enough munitions for ******s to automatically ditch the larger rest, and instead favour their own wet dreams *drool drool* *boom boom* oh noes my pants, nevermind my mom will buy me more.
Sweet Jeez.

What's more pathetic is the lattice of lies and wishful thinking they rely on to claim that the ICS are higher in the "canon"... totally ignoring Leeland's Chee's words and the continuity hierarchy they use at LFL to sort out material.

Funny how this same people harped on my ass because I was a purist and I should use the canon policy rolled out by Leeland Chee, the exact same one they willfully cheery pick from and twist to fit their agendas.

As far as canon goes, this same Mr. Chee did admit in one of his latest canon related interventions at SW.com's boards (I think it was there), the existence of two canons. The purist one and the EU compliant one.

The exact nature of Star Wars canon is very foggy if you look at the people who decide it

Chee-

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

Lucas-

"So how did Anakin get that scar, George?" asks John Knoll.
"I don't know. Ask Howard," says George, referring to President of Lucas Licensing Howard Roffman. "That's one of those things that happens in the novels between the movies. I just put it there. He has to explain how it got there. I think Anakin got it slipping in the bathtub, but of course, he's not going to tell anybody that."

Lucas-

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Chris Cerasi-

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

Sue Rostoni

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas’s Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

Hiearchy of reliability

G-Cannon George Lucas Cannon

C-Cannon pretty much every thing else

S-Cannon Secondary Cannon

N-Canon Non-Canon Alternate Reality Stories

This was set down by Chee. If LFL says movies have higher authority than anything else I'm with that. But the EU is still cannon just a slightly lower cannon. What you see to give the EU a high level of credibility is Lucas himself pulling things from it and using it in his movies.

Oh I got that quote from Wookiepedia which in turn got it from one of these sources

The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War
Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections
The Starships of Episode III
Trade Federation cruiser in the Databank
Starship Battles Preview 5 on Wizards.com

So it is possible it is from ICS. I own the first one which doesn't throw out energy levels and for the most part is excellent.



So it was not from the Star Wars Technical Commentaries by Curtis Saxton. I take his information with a grain of salt. Most of it is interesting speculations at most, some of it is good and some of it is waaay out there and completely unprovable from what we have seen in the movies or EU like the Endor Holocaust. So I agree some of his stuff is crap.

[Mister Oragahn]

So it was not from the Star Wars Technical Commentaries by Curtis Saxton.

One of the sources you listed is "Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections", precisely written by Curtis Saxton.

The kind of hard details you gave his a trademark of the two ICS he wrote for.
He was the one bringing in those detailed energy expenditure figures, while previous ICS incarnations weren't much concerned about quantification (joules, watts, etc.).

I take his information with a grain of salt. Most of it is interesting speculations at most, some of it is good and some of it is waaay out there and completely unprovable from what we have seen in the movies or EU like the Endor Holocaust. So I agree some of his stuff is crap.

You can take his site the way you want. It still contains lots of interesting first hand reported info, until he puts his spin on it. Then, indeed, you have to take it with a huge grain of salt.
Pluto sized.

Ultimately, his site carries no canon validity, even within the all encompassing canon policy.
Now, I don't want to start a canon debate about Star Wars.
It is particularily messy. I am simply satisfied that Chee acknowledged the two canons. The purist one, and the EU friendly one.

[Evil_Genius_McKay]

One of the sources you listed is "Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections", precisely written by Curtis Saxton.

The kind of hard details you gave his a trademark of the two ICS he wrote for.
He was the one bringing in those detailed energy expenditure figures, while previous ICS incarnations weren't much concerned about quantification (joules, watts, etc.).



You can take his site the way you want. It still contains lots of interesting first hand reported info, until he puts his spin on it. Then, indeed, you have to take it with a huge grain of salt.
Pluto sized.

Ultimately, his site carries no canon validity, even within the all encompassing canon policy.
Now, I don't want to start a canon debate about Star Wars.
It is particularily messy. I am simply satisfied that Chee acknowledged the two canons. The purist one, and the EU friendly one.

Didn't know he wrote those two. I wonder why they didn't have David West Reynolds write the second two. He did an excellent job on the first one. I will say that the books are more important for their visual aspect and identifying the parts of the ships and interior workings rather than what info is given in the text. By that token I would say that the second two are still worth something because I've seen the excellent cutaways from them.

That is interesting though I have known about his website for some time now, but never knew he wrote the second two ICS books, always thought David Reynolds must have wrote them since he wrote the first two. Just goes to show being a Ph.D doesn't make you any better qualified to write something like that.

Yeah there isn't much point debating Star Wars canon especially in a Stargate forum.

[TKG]

well now that that's slightly more clarified....did the big question ever get answered? I'm still rooting for the bc-304...

[JoNzA]

The star destroyer would win becuse of its supperior fire power but the BC-304 would be able to outrun the Star destroyer

[TKG]

more numerous capitol weapons does not equal superior firepower. As I recall wasn't it a flaw that the ISD's had their weapons arangements set in such a way that the full combat capabilites of having an angular craft was never realized?

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

No, it was the Trade Federation ships that had a bad arrangement of cannons.

The SDs are stated (in the official 'New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels) to have Turbolasers arranged in banks to provide complete coverage with a continuous rate of fire.

Oh, I have never stated my position:

Daedelus

Daedelus vs. Victory Class= Daedelus
Daedelus vs. ISD= draw
Daedelus vs. ISD II= ISD II (close battle)
Daedelus vs. SSD= SSD (Super Star Destroyer)
Daedelus vs. Eclipse= Eclipse

Oddessy (with upgrades)

Oddessy vs. Victory Class= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. ISD= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. ISD II= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. SSD= draw
Oddessy vs. Eclipse= Eclipse (close battle)

[Mister Oragahn]

well now that that's slightly more clarified....did the big question ever get answered? I'm still rooting for the bc-304...

When you look at the majority of the evidence... Star Wars's ship would go down.

BUT Stargate has an issue there, in that it's an universe which lacks direct evidence, and faces forms of inconsistency.

But globally, if there is one factor that has always been clear, it is that naqahdah is a really incredible power source.
It always makes thing be big.

Micro particles of naq blasting a room. Hand sized raw quantities boosting sub megaton warheads to gigaton nightmares. A ha'tak crash causing a teraton level explosion on the surface of a planet. A goa'uld supership's self destruct causing an exaton level explosion. An asteroid with a naqahdah core which would go nova if detonated with a gigaton nuke, at a close distance to Earth, and scorch the surface of the planet as far as to vaporize all the oceans. Most conservative ha'tak shield calcs that put them in the mid gigaton range, to one order of magnitude above, if not more. A naqahdah based hyperdrive which, when going critical, would leave a Nevada state sized crater on the surface of Earth. A shipment of naqahdah which would have blown a sizeable chunk of a planet if detonated. Minute traces of weapon grade naqahdah in the soil of a planet, which turn it into a plasma ball when a puny nuke is detonated on the surface.

On the other hand, Star Wars offers a large amount of descriptions mentionning heavier artillery dispatching shots in the averaged megaton range, more or less (which means it can be slightly sub megaton like it could be slightly above), and one single source which promotes unsubstanciated figures, which are even far above what the author himself ever argued for on his own website, and the reasons why he decided to jump to a higher degree of ridicule is unknown, though ties aren't hard to draw.
These informations ignore logic and objectivity. They actually ignore reason and canon. They are unsupported, largely flawed and once again, wholely rely on a vast panel of flawed notions promoted by extremely biased motives.
They remain based on nothing tangible, credible and verifiable, and if there were to be one example to support their absurd claims, you could find an array of hundreds more solid elements completely debunking them.

Simply looking at the facts shows that a 304 comes with a wide variety of means to attack an enemy ship such as an ISD. These go from railguns, to interception missiles and nuclear warheads of various yields, some of them naqahdah enhanced.
The 304 has shown superior manoeuverability (SGA Allies vs. TESB).

It won't be any easy battle, but the 304 has advantages, like the ability of beam nukes inside, or very close to the enemy at point blank range if necessary.
In terms of firepower, the 304 is roughly equal with the ISD, with nukes from low megatons to low gigatons. Their numbers are limited, but considering what wings of fighters can do to an ISD, those gigaton level nukes would be decisive and quickly end the ISD.
Besides, the other main advantage is that the 304 has, by default, shields of immense power, which for all intents and purposes, largely surpass those of an ISD. De facto making the 304 a mobile fortress with far more durability, and a formidable mean to deliver weapons.

Now, since we're talking about all star destroyers, we can look at an Executor-like ship as well.
This is hard to say, but only a focused barrage of gigaton warheads I think, would poke a hole in the shields.
They'd have to aim for the bridge, but how would they know that?
Otherwise, it's trying to cripple a 17.2 km long ship.. at best, you blow a couple of sections, but nothing dramatic, and the Executor will have an easy upper hand there.

Now, if a 304 has a horizon weapon system, and if all of the ten slots of the MIRV system are all equipped with warheads (no decoys), then there's logically no single star destroyer in SW which could resist that.

[TKG]

Besides, the other main advantage is that the 304 has, by default, shields of immense power, which for all intents and purposes, largely surpass those of an ISD. De facto making the 304 a mobile fortress with far more durability, and a formidable mean to deliver weapons. - Mister Oragahn

hmmm you know you just got me thinking... if the BC-304's sheilds are stronger then that of the ISD whouldn't it then be possible to use the Deady's sheilds as a blunt impact weapon to overlaod the ISD's sheilds? Allowing free beaming and bombing with impunity? constant collision over a respectively big area is something I doubt ISD sheilds are designe dot handle for very long.


No, it was the Trade Federation ships that had a bad arrangement of cannons. - Lt. Col. Mcoy

that may be true...but I'd heard it stated in more then one place long before EP1-3 that the the ISD's systematically always failed to take advantage of the trenches in their sides to allow for a particularly devistating triple-angle broadside ability.

[RJLCyberPunk]

No, it was the Trade Federation ships that had a bad arrangement of cannons.

The SDs are stated (in the official 'New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels) to have Turbolasers arranged in banks to provide complete coverage with a continuous rate of fire.

Oh, I have never stated my position:

Daedelus

Daedelus vs. Victory Class= Daedelus
Daedelus vs. ISD= draw
Daedelus vs. ISD II= ISD II (close battle)
Daedelus vs. SSD= SSD (Super Star Destroyer)
Daedelus vs. Eclipse= Eclipse

Oddessy (with upgrades)

Oddessy vs. Victory Class= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. ISD= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. ISD II= Oddessy
Oddessy vs. SSD= draw
Oddessy vs. Eclipse= Eclipse (close battle)

Nice assessment, sorry to barge in but this is an excellent thread. Who knew that rabid warsies or Wongies as someone else here called them dwell on Gateworld as well!

[Ouroboros]

The new Clone Wars series honestly makes it look like even Galactica could probably kick some Star Destroyer ass now, like fairly easily even, if they use nukes.