Eden (406)

[Stargate: Horizon]

Stargate: Horizon - "Eden"

Grant, Christine, Daniel and David accompany Sivok to a Draque cloning facility onboard an Enoly space station, where Sivok hopes to preserve an ancient Draque that's been kept in stasis for tens of thousands of years.


Check it out!

Then stop back here to share your thoughts.

[Alex Rubit]

You can check out some concept art for this particular episode by clicking on this link!

It's the Enoly space station that first appeared in "Preemptive Strike," designed by Bethany Berg. But since it's been a while, and since we get to see a station like that in "Eden," we figured it warranted a re-release.

Some big things going on in tonight's episode. So I'm pretty curious to see what the reactions will be.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

this was an indescrible episode. im lost for words Mike did a good job with this one. i need to know something will we see John's Original body again and if so will he get it back because i think i would feel the same way if someone took my body and put my conciousness into a cloned one it would not feel the same. and how many more episodes will sivok be in again this season?

[Elite Anubis Guard]

Well, that was just plain awesome. Another fantastic episode from Mr Knock Your Socks Off Mike. Easily the best episode in S4 so far and probably better than any in S3. The basic story was really interesting but it's the character stuff I'ma looking forward to. I can't wait to see how Grant handles being a "copy" and how it will effect his relationship with the Draque.

I'm also curious as to what will happen with this Original and how Nossy having the cloning facility will **** things up. A++ episode, Mike. On a side note, be sure to keep an eye for typos and etc. This episode had a few.

[Lt. Colonel Ryu Gaia]

Now that is a return to form.

[peragrin]

oooh exciting, though I can understand grants reaction I am a bit surprised that he didn't simply beat the hell out of sivok.

I do wonder though with horizon keeping the original what kind of things will be learned. I also hope Sivok isn't gone to long because with friends like him who needs enemies. Grant will have to accept what Sivok has done sooner or later. Maybe daniel can have a heart to heart with him about something the Asguard went through when their cloning began.


9.99999999/10

[SierraGulf1]

Wow, I'm humbled. Thanks for the nice comments (love any kind of commentary, but it's always reassuring when comments are good).

I've got a lot to say on this one. First and foremost, a few notes on the episode:

I've been wanting to do this one since I started writing for Horizon. As my writing sample, I wrote the teaser for this episode (which changed completely since), and pitched it immediately after I joined. Never got around to doing it until we finally found the ideal location for it. Originally, the team just happened across the facility, and Chase ended up being the cloned one. Later pitches saw Christine and David as being the potential victims of the cloning. There never was much to the story until the Sivok and Nosah'trah elements were added. To be honest, Sivok was losing his ambiguity and the Grant/Sivok relationship was turning into the same sort of interactions every episode. Some sort of betrayal was needed.

Nosah'trah's takeover of Lonik was also to shake things up a bit. Sivok/Lonik eps were getting too formulaic.

Originally Posted by Lt.Colonel John Sheppard

i need to know something will we see John's Original body again and if so will he get it back because i think i would feel the same way if someone took my body and put my conciousness into a cloned one it would not feel the same. and how many more episodes will sivok be in again this season?

Originally Posted by Elite Anubis Guard

I can't wait to see how Grant handles being a "copy" and how it will effect his relationship with the Draque.

As of now, Sivok will be in at least one more episode this season (shortly after the midseason two-parter). I'd like to bring him back for the finale, but I'm unsure. As for the original clone body, I think that's also something to be addressed this season, and while the fact that Grant is actually a clone of himself seems to go forgotten in upcoming episodes, Sivok or Quelak's next appearance will be an instant reminder to him what he is. Should be interesting, I say.

Originally Posted by Elite Anubis Guard

I'm also curious as to what will happen with this Original and how Nossy having the cloning facility will **** things up.

Nosey'll be going dark for a while (the midseasoner involves an Earth conflict), but we'll definitely see some ramifications in the second half of the season. Expect the Draque to become common henchmen once again; they haven't been since a large amount of them were killed over Ultera.

Originally Posted by Elite Anubis Guard

On a side note, be sure to keep an eye for typos and etc. This episode had a few.

Yeah, I wanted to give the ep one final read through this week but never got around to it. Hoping the errors don't detract too much from the episode.

Thanks again, guys.

[SierraGulf1]

Originally Posted by peragrin

oooh exciting, though I can understand grants reaction I am a bit surprised that he didn't simply beat the hell out of sivok.

I do wonder though with horizon keeping the original what kind of things will be learned. I also hope Sivok isn't gone to long because with friends like him who needs enemies. Grant will have to accept what Sivok has done sooner or later. Maybe daniel can have a heart to heart with him about something the Asguard went through when their cloning began.


9.99999999/10

I agree, Sivok's ambiguity makes him the most interesting character in the series, and in my opinion his change from complete enemy to partial ally in the last seven episodes of season one was one of the best decisions the series has made (I can say this, I wasn't on staff at the time ). As I said, he'll be backa t least once but hopefully some more this season. We'd like to expand his role beyond "guy who shows up in two-parters," although it was great having him along in 2.23-24, 3.12-13, and 4.01-02.

While the effects of this change on Grant won't be immediately apparent, and his consciousness is still in tact with an identical body, I definitely think this will... change him a bit.

[peragrin]

Sivok should of been nicer to Grant. At least the cloned body could be 10-20 years younger. Heck Even Sheppard had a few years taken off him by a Wraith.

Grant would have been happier if Sivok had just cloned him a new 25 year old body. Maybe a more muscular body? of course Grant should also be glad he didn't get a random Draque body either.


<note random speculation and sarcasm is in the above>

[Senku]

Now Alex, that's a surprise!

All we know that Sivok is really ambiguous, but his decision on "Eden" was completely insane! One could think that the Draque Commander must believe hard in this Original to betray our people and the alliance with them and specially to betray Grant. That was a heck of a choice and I think that Sivok will struggles with that decision for a long time...

Chris and Daniel were okay, but nothing spectacular. The meeting with Trelnak was a good idea, though.

Nossy strikes back and takes Lonik as host and that is a very important point in this episode. The titular bad guy having a powerful character as a host brings some new possibilities to this season and that's really cool

OFF-TOPIC: I find really cool writing about a fiction character called Nosah'trah and less some inches above I can read an advertising link to nostradamusonline.com about a new book about his prophecies and all of that stuff... LOL /OFF-TOPIC


I could see Grant strugling with the "i'm-a-clone" thing in the next times and may be that could be a good thing for his relationship with our golden blonde I'd really love this matter speeding up a little but you guys want to really postpone this thing a little longer

I miss Chase, specially now, when he could come up with some pranky comments about John and his condition as member of the Dolly-club.

And another episode without Zach. I promise I'm not calling for him, I'm only establishing that is really... curious

Nice episode Mike, congrats

Edit: Although I knew it from other sites, the design of the Enoly Station is really cool. Congrats on that Beth!! I really picture this design when I read the episodes and I'm curious if you could show us some Enoly ship design so cool like this one

[SierraGulf1]

Thanks for the comments, Senku.

Originally Posted by Senky

OFF-TOPIC: I find really cool writing about a fiction character called Nosah'trah and less some inches above I can read an advertising link to nostradamusonline.com about a new book about his prophecies and all of that stuff... LOL /OFF-TOPIC

Interesting that should happen. It's almost like Nosey was Nostradamus himself.

Originally Posted by Senku

I miss Chase, specially now, when he could come up with some pranky comments about John and his condition as member of the Dolly-club.

Indeed, Chase is missed, but we may see him again sooner than you think.

[Senku]

Don't worry, I've bet that he'll come back before mid season. I hope you don't let me lose my money ugh?

Regarding Nossy/Nostradamus, I always thought that there was a subtle connection between them, at least regarding their names

You could throw some "flesh" for all we don't enjoy Thankgiving Day like you fellows northamericans An image, a sound,... I don't know... SOMETHING!! How do you expect we pass the next two weeks ugh!?!?! ¬¬

[COMMANDER SIVOK]

Another great episode, but I did have a problem with some of it. Let me start of by saying I hate when people are negative in forums. This will be the first time I post something negative and I am sorry for that. Sivok is by far my favorite character and I did not like how some of the episode went down.

I will start with the parts I liked the most. Nosah'trah taking Lonik as a host was the best part and should have some serious ramifications. I think SENKU hit the nail on the head when he said "Nossy strikes back and takes Lonik as host and that is a very important point in this episode".That part could have been easily overlooked with all the things going on between Grant and Sivok. Now Nosah'trah has all of Lonik's knowledge and strength plus Nosah'trah said that Lonik's mind is weak making him easier to inhabit, now that does't sound to good. With all of Lonik's knowledge and the cloning facility Nosah'trah just got even more scary, I can not wait to see what happens next.

Having Trelnak get Christine and Daniel out was great and I have to say I did not see that one coming at all. I was trying to figure out how Christine and Daniel where going to get off the ship. I think that using Trelnak was a stroke of genius. Now that Lonik is Nosah'trah host does that mean he knows Trelnak is a spy? Really liked how Trelnak asked them to give his regards to tom nice touch.

[QUOTE=SierraGulf1;7335837]I agree, Sivok's ambiguity makes him the most interesting character in the series, and in my opinion his change from complete enemy to partial ally in the last seven episodes of season one was one of the best decisions the series has made. I could not agree more with this quote. It is the main reason I like Sivok so much.

"Sivok was losing his ambiguity and the Grant/Sivok relationship was turning into the same sort of interactions every episode. Some sort of betrayal was needed". Again I could not agree more with this quote. The betrayal had to happen to give new depth to the Grant Sivok relationship, but I did not like how it happened.

I think when Sivok asked Grant to talk in private, I would have liked to see Sivok ask Grant if he could clone him and transfer his consciousness to the clone so they could transfer the original Draque consciousness to Grants old body. That way when Sivok betrayas Grant it would not be so bad. I just don't see how Sivok and Grant will get their dynamic relationship back. Maybe they get captured and put in a cell togther and have to escape.

I thought it was great that Quelak was like the Enloy thinking they are superior to every one. That is why I would have liked to see Sivok ask Grant to clone him. I think you could have had great interaction between Grant, Sivok and Grant/Quelak. Grant would have still been really betrayed by Sivok. The way Sivok betrayed Grant in this episode must really really cut deep into Grant and the reltaionship he has forumed with Sivok. That was what you where probably going for and I understand that. Again I just don't see how they get their relationship back ever.

Even with the parts I did not like I still really liked this episode, and can live with the way the episode went. When I saw this statment in the Eden write up, huge impact on the relationship between Colonel Grant and Sivok. I just knew I would love and hate this episode. This has to go down as one of the most deep episode's in Horizon. How is Grant going to deal with being in a cloned body and sivok's betrayal? how will Sivok deal with his betrayal of Grant and that Quelak did not live up to his god like status? What will happen with Grant/Quelak? To top it all off Lonik/Nosah'trah have the cloning facility! MAN WHAT A GREAT EPISODE.

Finally the Enoly Space Station that Bethany Berg designed, wow that was unbelievable it looked great. Keep the concept art coming I love it.

[Col.Foley]

First of all, I went onto the forum to see what the general impressions of the episode were, and I saw all the outstanding. But when I was reading the episode it was like, "What is all the fuss about." This was a good episode, but not a great one. Then it turned completely along with all the surprises, and all the tense moments.
First of all, Grant's cloning, that was a surprise, I thought they were going to do the two minds in one body thing again. Second, the Lonik, really, really surprising what happened to him at the end. It was a real interesting decision since we do not see that happen to good guys that we get to know, too often. Trelenek showing up was a welcome surprise at the end of the episode, one that gave us another view of that character.
Now on to general commentary. Like I side, the first couple of acts were only good. The thing that bothered me at first, more so considering what ended up happening with the "friendly" Enoly not knowing that the allies of Sivok were human. I mean, he should have known. Also, the hyper drive was a nice touch, don't see that too often either in SciFi. A;so, love what you did with the Queen. Quite comical,and quite important to consider. The whole almost, "I am your god." again that was an interesting take considering Sivok's reactions during the episode, her "great wisdom." Only to find out that she is as arrogant and cocky as any Goa'uld. This is something for any of us to keep in mind if we ever actually meet our idles, and heroes, don't let your expectations get to high.
Still, I can perfectly understand Grant's reaction I'm not sure I would have reacted in the same way, I think I would try to rebuild a trust, after all Sivok did something that was looking out for his people to give them hope, to give them a destiny. Another interesting decision to make him a desperate frightened man, just holding out for his one last desperate bid for hope. And after all, if we were in the same situation are we sure we would act no differently, if something that we believed in enough was at stake would we really not betray our friends, if we felt we had absolutely no choice, interesting idea to ponder.
Final thought: Glad to hear that this will not be the last of the whole cloning thing. More importantly though is, how will this effect the relationship between Grant and Sivea? Too often I think, there are two specific examples that I can think of in Trek, where something like this happens and we never hear about it. The clone/ duplicate, just goes on with life like nothing ever happened, glad Horizon is going to avoid this.

[Alex Rubit]

Originally Posted by Senku

Now Alex, that's a surprise!

Yup. It's possible this is what I was hinting at the other day.

I could see Grant strugling with the "i'm-a-clone" thing in the next times and may be that could be a good thing for his relationship with our golden blonde

You never know. They do have a really nice scene together in "The Syndicate." Actually, now that I think of it... it's two nice scenes.

I miss Chase, specially now, when he could come up with some pranky comments about John and his condition as member of the Dolly-club.

Like Mike said, Chase will be back at some point this season... in one way or another.

And another episode without Zach. I promise I'm not calling for him, I'm only establishing that is really... curious

Zach was originally in a scene in "Reunited," but that was cut because the episode was running too long. Both Zach and Jerry will be in "Robots and Flying Saucers," though. And we'll be hearing from them later in the season as well.

I'm curious if you could show us some Enoly ship design so cool like this one

Hopefully we'll be able to get to that pretty soon.

[Alex Rubit]

Originally Posted by COMMANDER SIVOK

Now that Lonik is Nosah'trah host does that mean he knows Trelnak is a spy?

That's a good question actually.

I think when Sivok asked Grant to talk in private, I would have liked to see Sivok ask Grant if he could clone him and transfer his consciousness to the clone so they could transfer the original Draque consciousness to Grants old body. That way when Sivok betrayas Grant it would not be so bad.

Actually, that's addressed in the scene with Grant and Sivok in Act Two. Sivok knew that there was no chance on Earth that Grant would ever agree to something like that.

I just don't see how Sivok and Grant will get their dynamic relationship back.

That's exactly the kind of questions we want you all to ask yourselves.

Stay tuned.

[Alex Rubit]

Originally Posted by Col.Foley

Only to find out that she is as arrogant and cocky as any Goa'uld. This is something for any of us to keep in mind if we ever actually meet our idles, and heroes, don't let your expectations get to high.

That's a very interesting point, and definitely true. Sivok had completely different expectations regarding Quelak.

I'm not sure I would have reacted in the same way, I think I would try to rebuild a trust, after all Sivok did something that was looking out for his people to give them hope, to give them a destiny.

I think it's great whenever an audience gets involved to the point where you ask yourself these kinds of questions. Would you have done the same thing? Would you have done something differently? It's definitely a tough question.

Another interesting decision to make him a desperate frightened man, just holding out for his one last desperate bid for hope. And after all, if we were in the same situation are we sure we would act no differently, if something that we believed in enough was at stake would we really not betray our friends, if we felt we had absolutely no choice, interesting idea to ponder.

I completely agree with both of those points. Sivok is a very complicated character, and he's not really easy to understand. This episode shed some more light into his way of thinking, and it's a little startling actually. But at the same time, you do have to ask yourself, if facing the same choices that he was facing, would you possibly have done something similiar?

I think from Sivok's point of view, he's anything but an antagonist. He sees himself more as the missunderstood hero, who's forced to make some tough sacrifices for the greater good. But as Grant points out at the end, Sivok wasn't forced to anything. He made a choice. That's, of course, true in most situations like these. It really just comes down to what someone's viewpoint is. From Sivok's perspective, he did not have a choice.

Final thought: Glad to hear that this will not be the last of the whole cloning thing.

Definitely not. The next few episodes don't focus too much on Grant, so this matter doesn't get addressed in them actually. But that's just how a series works often; a couple of episodes down the road, this will become a pretty huge factor, when it's moved back into the foreground... and Sivok returns once again.

Too often I think, there are two specific examples that I can think of in Trek, where something like this happens and we never hear about it. The clone/ duplicate, just goes on with life like nothing ever happened, glad Horizon is going to avoid this.

I can't think of which examples in Trek you mean off the top of my head, but I agree. You can't just hit the reset button after doing something like this, and that's not what we intend to do. On SGH in particular, many if not all of the regulars have been through experiences that changed them in one way or another. And that's something we definitely want to keep doing.

[COMMANDER SIVOK]

[QUOTE=Alex Rubit;7340334].
Actually, that's addressed in the scene with Grant and Sivok in Act Two. Sivok knew that there was no chance on Earth that Grant would ever agree to something like that.

I do understand that but, the point I was trying to make is Sivok would not just kill Grant. Sivok had a choice to put Grant in Quelak body and let him die or clone him and hope Grant would live. I just do not see Sivok making the choice he did. Sivok can be ruthless and I love that but to me that was over the top. Sivok had just told Grant all the things he admired about him and to make a choice that would kill Grant just bothered me especially when he had the choice to clone him Instead.

[SierraGulf1]

Sivok did say that he would try to find another body to put Grant in before Quelak's original body. Didn't see it as something being on the top of his priority list, but I don't think he would have let Grant die without at least trying.

[SG-25CSAR]

I agree with Commander Sivok for the most part, the poster not the charactor.

I don't agree with Grant's reaction 100%, and Sivok could of tride to convince him before he did what he did. The story was smoth and I really did not expect to see Trelnak nor Nostra-whats-his-face take Sivok's secand. I was shocked and I hope that this developes into something interesting as far as Both charachters are concerned. I'd rather have a better version of Skarra if you know what I mean.

I am not sure how to vote this, good or outsanding. So I will abstien till I see more episodes to compare it with this season.