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Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2 (214)

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    Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2 (214)

    Visit the Episode GuideSTAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON TWO
    SUCH SWEET SORROW,
    PART 2

    EPISODE NUMBER - 214
    Outgunned by Control's fleet, the Discovery and Enterprise crews fight to open a wormhole and rob the enemy of its prize.

    VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >>
    Last edited by GateWorld; 06 February 2021, 12:39 AM.

    #2
    Ho. Lee. Crap.
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

    Comment


      #3
      Meh.

      Lots of strong elements this season, but the two-part finale felt deeply lacking to me. An hour of emo goodbyes, followed by an hour of s'plosions and closing the story loop that by now we knew they would need to close. No more surprises -- just boxes to check.

      I am completely thrown out of the story every time the writers have a 23rd-century character (1) use 20th-century slang to try and make them feel "cool" or familiar; or (2) act in ways utterly unbecoming a Federation officer ("Get off my ass ... sir!"). Both halves of this two-parter were loaded with both of these.

      Weak end to a strong season.

      ~Darren

      Comment


        #4
        so firstly, simpsons did it, the whole skinner lets never speak of it retcon felt a bit lazy, but was what i had expected,

        amazing space battle

        surprised weve not seen anyone from 29th century starfleet turn up and question what these guys are doing with time

        Comment


          #5
          I cannot express how much I loved this episode. I was close to tears by the end.

          Sure, it wasn’t perfect so let’s get the negatives out of the way first.
          The way Control’s drones just died when Leland went down is a bit dumb. It seemed like that old time problem of writers not understanding how computers work.
          Pretty much anything where they put Spock or Pike at risk seemed terribly contrived since e know they live, however I am willing to give it a pass since we still need the characters themselves to think they’re at risk or it just isn’t believable.
          The fact that the blast door was enough to save Pike when it was right next to the torpedo but its explosion took out the entire forwar quarter of the saucer. Cornwell dying was dramatic enough, we didn’t need Pike there watching.
          Why do turbolifts seemingly end up in just conference rooms?
          More D7 and less cleave ship would have been nice.
          It seemed like both Enterprise and Discovery can take more of a beating than any ship ever... but more on this later.
          They seemed to forget about Po after she did her bit.
          Not too sure I like those repair droids Enterprise has.

          Ok, now that’s out of the way...

          Wow. Just.... WOW!
          So as Darren pointed out there are a lot of ‘splosions and by god do they look stunning. I can see why the last number of the episodes towards the end were much more low-key because that was a spectacle. The wormhole effect, both out and in loked incredible. In looked like something that the brain would have trouble comprehending which is as it should be, and I noted the final rft that Discovery went through looked more familiar as something out of TNG. I also adore how they essentially recreated the streaking effect used in The Motion Picture for the crew when they were entering the wormhole. Very cool.
          I almost squeaked joyously when we saw Enterprise was using the full on intensity blue beam phasers. That was something special, and it definitely seems like they took every opportunity to give us a beauty shot of both Ent and Disco.

          Also just to appreciate for a moment that this is the first time we get to see what effectively serves as a carrier battle in Star Trek. I mean I’m not sure I like those attack fighters all that much and I kinda question how Enterprise can carry close to two hundred of them BUT Number One did bring the Enterprise loaded for bear so Im willing to let that go. And you know the attack fighters and the drones do help to explain why the battle lasted so long. Both looked tiny so they wouldn’t be armed with the battleship level phaser cannons that the starships were using. It’d be like firing a phaser rifle at a starship. It wouldn’t do that much in the grand scheme. Also it’s not like Control wanted to destroy Disocvery so it was likely meticulous in allowing its drowns to fight the battle while the thirty ships were mainly there for containment to make sure Enterprise and Discovery couldn’t move very far. As for why they didn’t destroy Enterprise right off the bat... I kinda wonder if Control was concerned that they might have shared the spehere data between the two ships so might as well keep both alive as long as possible... I’ll rewatch it for some potential clues towards motivation in that regard.

          There were so many character moments in amongst the action. I adored the scene in engineering where the team was rushing to get the suit operational. Burnham, Stamets and Spock were perfectly sychronised and it’s a joy to see that. Then we just got little glimpses of what these characters mean to each other. Tilly worried over Stamets when he got hit and all the stuff with him and Hugh after. Everything with Spock and Burnham. I loved how when the Klingons arrived the camera focussed on Spock for a moment. All I could think about was Star Trek VI and how this could be the moment he realised they could be allies some day.

          Cornwell’s sacrifice was downright heroic. Sad to see her go but the way she just faced up to it and did the job got to me. Sadly I was spoiled going in that she was going to die.

          Number One now has a name. One at least.

          L’Rell laughing in the heat of battle.

          I... Ok my thoughts are becoming too jumbled now to gush coherently so I’m gonna need to watch it again later to add more thoughts. What I will say though is...

          My GOD, that ending. It was perfect. I get a strong feeling that this really was meant to be a series finale before they got confirmation of a third season. I really really hope we get the Pike show because it was set up beautifully. And if this were the end I would be actually ok with it as a finale because we are left with that sense of wonder which I would hope for in this show. Like Spock, we go on faith that everyone is alive and well.

          I am hoping that Disvoery manages to make it back to the 23rd Century to be honest but at the very least a season of them trapped in the future would be cool. I don’t want a show like Voyager where they are out on their own. I want this crew to interact with Starfleet. I mean if the Spore Drive is the burning issue just simply get rid of it next season. Stamets is in a coma and the reaction cube has been damaged by Leland so there’s plenty of ways to get around that.
          Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
            I cannot express how much I loved this episode. I was close to tears by the end.

            (snip)
            Couldn't agree more. Loved loved loved this and the previous episode to bits. It was thrilling, it was emotional, it was fulfilling, it was spectacular. It was filled with little nods to previous Trek, and indirectly evocative of still more old Trek. This was an incredible finale to an already fantastic season.

            Now I just need to get CBS to send me one of those Red Angel suits so that I can skip ahead to when Season 3 starts....
            "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

            Comment


              #7
              So, as the kids say nowadays, I can't even.
              It was emotional, it was intense, it was visually beautiful, and I'm still not totally alright.
              I loved that it was Michael after all, after having her mother as red herring, that the whole Spore drive/Discovery was "retconned into oblivion", and it still made sense.
              But mostly I loved how Po saved the day recognizing the drones' behavior, and that doctor Culber came back for Stamets.
              sigpic

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by pjt View Post
                So, as the kids say nowadays, I can't even.
                It was emotional, it was intense, it was visually beautiful, and I'm still not totally alright.
                I loved that it was Michael after all, after having her mother as red herring, that the whole Spore drive/Discovery was "retconned into oblivion", and it still made sense.
                But mostly I loved how Po saved the day recognizing the drones' behavior, and that doctor Culber came back for Stamets.
                The thing is that the Spore Drive was always going to be a retcon. I know a lot of people give the series grief for that but I don’t see a problem with it. At the end of the day it’s not the destination but the journey that matters. I just hope that the crew don’t stay stuck in the future. I mean sure, give them the Discovery-A if necessary but the crew deserves to make it home and to my mind this is a 23rd Century Crew. They have that pioneering spirit that belongs in the 23rd Century when the FInal Frontier was brand new.
                Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

                Comment


                  #9
                  So having rewatched the episode I have answered a couple of questions to my satisfaction.

                  First of all why Section 31’s 30 ships didn’t just immediately overwhelm Enterprise and Discovery.

                  Early in the battle Pike explicitly orders a group of fighters to harass the Section 31 ships. This coupled with the need to keep Discovery intact probably caused Control to hold back its forces fairly substantially.

                  Second, why did Leland’s destruction stop the rest of Control? THIS IS NOT HOW COMPUTERS WORK...

                  See, at this point Leland was the only chance Control had of obtaining the Sphere Data. The rest of the drone ships had no chance of disabling Discovery before it hit the rift. Therefore, facing a obvious defeat and being a programme that no doubt take consideration of things like a waste of resources, Control simply ordered the drones to stand down. Control only had active posession of the Section 31 ships, which were being overwhelmed by Enterprise and the Klingon Fleet, so there was just no point continuing. It’s made clear during Ash’s debrief at the end that Control still existed because Starfleet still had to dismantle it, it’s just that it recognised that it had lost. This also answers the question of why Discovery didn’t just turn around when Control was defeated, because if it had then control would have likely reactivated the drones to obtain the data again.
                  Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It was better then season 1 but i dont like the show still.
                    It's watchable scifi with it's no sense what so ever story telling.

                    The main part that i really dont like is that they want to be cannon but have basically nothing left in the show that can be in cannon. And whats most ticked me off was that they first season and most of the characters were stolen from some fan made indie game tardegrades. Thats just lazy and set's up new rules for big media companies that they can stole everything and nothing happens to them
                    sorry about my lack of language skills as it is not my daily language and have learned it by my self as not from any help of others or a school

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by lopo30 View Post
                      It was better then season 1 but i dont like the show still.
                      It's watchable scifi with it's no sense what so ever story telling.

                      The main part that i really dont like is that they want to be cannon but have basically nothing left in the show that can be in cannon. And whats most ticked me off was that they first season and most of the characters were stolen from some fan made indie game tardegrades. Thats just lazy and set's up new rules for big media companies that they can stole everything and nothing happens to them
                      Sorry you feel that way Lopo but as far as I am concerned it is still all canon. I am actually slightly sad that the showrunners have seemingly been forced by fan reaction to backtrack on what they have added to it.

                      I have looked into the Tardigrades game, but I still don’t buy that they blatantly ripped it off. I wouldn’t be too surprised if they had their Tardigrade idea completely independently from each other, given that tardigrades are the only species on Earth that can survive in space. Going by the game’s character designs I just don’t see how they relate to the Disco crew beyond being one black woman, one red head woman and one blonde man. There is a growing trend to show diversity in all forms of media so that is easily coincidental.

                      What I do think could have happened is that one of the members 8or more) of the VFX team MAY have known about the game and used it as a visual inspiration for their work as soon as they saw the term “giant Tardigrade” in the script. Now you could argue that was wrong, but I doubt that the showrunners themselves would have been aware of it and it’s not like the VFX team would admit to it when asked.

                      There are certainly aspects of the show that are heavily influenced by existing sci-fi. More so than ever before really. I noted in this very episode that the scene where Pike orders the shuttles and fighters to surround Burnham was almost identical to a scene in Ender’s Game. But honestly I think those are intentional and overt homages to a lifetime of Sci-fi that these writers and VFX / design guys have consumed. And quite often tv scripts are not massively clear on what should be seen on screen and it’s left to the design team and directors to figure out on their own.
                      Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
                        Sorry you feel that way Lopo but as far as I am concerned it is still all canon. I am actually slightly sad that the showrunners have seemingly been forced by fan reaction to backtrack on what they have added to it.
                        It's not just 'as far as you (or I) am concerned' -- it is canon, fullstop. The point isn't up for debate, them's just the facts--I don't like Voyager or Nemesis or most of Enterprise, but they're all canon too. That's just how it works
                        "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
                          It's not just 'as far as you (or I) am concerned' -- it is canon, fullstop. The point isn't up for debate, them's just the facts--I don't like Voyager or Nemesis or most of Enterprise, but they're all canon too. That's just how it works
                          True. And it is canon in the sense of that being now the source material that future writers will build upon. But I have often decreed in the Star Wars threads that even though the old legends EU has been classed as non-canon there’s no reason why fans of Legends but not of episodes VII to IX can’t just pretend in their own heads that legends is what still happened. Or pretend that a particular story they are fond of which doesn’t contradict current canon still happened. It’d be a bit hypocritical of me to say that Star Trek fans can’t do the same. Although I with both I would say that it is something largely best kept to the individual, simply because nothing is helped by constantly whining about something you don’t like. Ultimately what we call canon is more of use to writers and showrunners then it technically is for the viewer, because a viewer shouldn’t necessarily be constrained to a set of logical rules in the way that a producer or showrunner has to be in order for them to be constrained to the universe they work in.

                          Of course for me, half the fun is seeing something which doesn’t conform to previous held canon or continuity and imagining ways around how it could fit, which is a big part of why I love Discovery. A lot of fans see problems in things like Section 31 being common knowledge in the 23rd Century or how Burnham’s parents invented highly complex time travel suit or the spore drive and so on, whereas I simply see those things and my mind is constantly going over them in my head to see how they can fit in to what we know from previous shows.
                          Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Remember when Star Trek was about people working together to solve problems? Remember when we got the chance to learn about all the major bridge officers and grow to love them as characters? Remember when Star Trek showed a future that made one optimistic about tomorrow, and maybe, just maybe, we can come together as a species and accomplish wonders? Yeah me too. Now, all we get is two seasons of Burnham Jesus Christ superstar saving the Federation and the galaxy, and oh yeah there’s Spock and the Enterprise. Isn’t it cool?! I’ve grown up with Star Trek and I can comfortably say, this is the laziest, shallowest, least character driven Star Trek narrative created to date. Surely the writers realize the folly of pinning the entire story on the plausibility of one character? Unfortunately, the character of Michael Burnham isn’t nearly strong enough to hold the weight of the entire series. Yes, it looks beautiful and dazzling, but style doesn’t make up for lack of substance. Star Trek was a lower budget show that depended on stellar story telling. Discovery suffers from having a high budget and lower story telling. Go back to the tried and true Star Trek formula. Give the audience characters we love and visuals that amaze, and Star Trek will be amazing once again
                            "You don't know half of it".
                            Former C.I.A. Director George Bush
                            (When asked about UFO secrecy by a member of his presidential campaign committee)


                            Comment


                              #15
                              I'm not sure you watched the same Discovery as the rest of us.
                              "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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