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Reply With QuoteOkay, maybe I am crazy, because I'm responding to my own posts, but since LoneStar1836 and I seem to be on the same page, figuratively, I thought we should be on the same page, altogether. Genius!
I've been postulating upon whether we'll see an equivalent of the Imperious Leader of BSG(TOS) in BSG(RDM), and I'm convinced we're going to see "it," for lack of a better word, reimagined into the role of the deity Baltar refers to as the "Cylon God."
My idea comes from a little hint that Six may have dropped when she reacted to Elosha's story of a terrible dispute between the Lords of Kobol caused by one of the Gods that thought himself to be greater than the rest. Six reacted to this by calling it blasphemous, and stated, for the nth time, that there is only one true God.
[EDIT: The actual dialogue, transcribed from a deleted scene (non-canonical) from Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I:
Tigh: It's been a while since I read the scriptures... So why did we leave Kobol in the first place?
Elosha: One jealous God began to desire that he be elevated above the other Gods, and the war on Kobol began.
Six: Blasphemous, stupid nuns, there've never been any other Gods, only the one.]
This could be interpreted in two ways:
1) Six is denouncing the entire pantheon of Kobolian Gods.
2) Six believes that the God who thought himself greater, is the one true God.
Now this idea goes in concert with another, that the humano-cylons that we've seen to date could be replicants of the Lords of Kobol (see other post), which makes them the modified (silica pathways) clones of the deified embodiments of the signs of the Zodiac.
Now we have to look at numbers.
There are 12 colonies represented in the Colonial Fleet, and 12 cylon models. However, if we account for Earth, as the thirteenth colony, the number game, which RDM has acknowledged (in his podcasts) is significant to the BSG mythos, no longer works: 13 colonies, 12 humano-cylons.
So, in light of this, I am guessing that the 13th model, is not one that can be replicated, is likely the religious leader of the cylons, may be their God, and is likely the God among the Kobolian pantheon that deemed himself greater than the rest.
Call me crazy, but I've had BSG on the brain, and this just seems to fit.
Last edited by MASON; October 18th, 2005 at 12:52 AM.
Okay, maybe I am crazy, because I'm responding to my own posts, but since LoneStar1836 and I seem to be on the same page, figuratively, I thought we should be on the same page, altogether. Genius!
Well my post wasn’t that elaborate or specific.
The idea that this 13th “god” could be the one, true “god” referred to by Six is an interesting idea. I just interpreted Six’s statement in that deleted scene as her just denouncing the entire pantheon of Kobolian Gods as fakes, but you raise an interesting alternative interpretation of her statement.
I’ve never seen TOS, so I have no idea who the “Imperious Leader” was or turned out to be so I don’t have knowledge of the original series to draw from (though I gather that the Cylons were created by some alien race??). It will be interesting to see if the “Cylon god” does really have an origin that traces back to Kobol, or have the Cylons come up with a monotheistic religion with a god that has evolved completely separate from Kobol. The Cylons do like to espouse that Kobol is "the birthplace of us all," which I've always interpreted as them acknowldgeing that they were created by man who in turn originated from Kobol and thus they essentially did as well, but maybe they mean something else when they say that...a more direct connection.
Six and Leoben like to riddle about their god and religion so much, that I really haven’t put much effort in trying to interpret what they might be saying about the origin of their religion or themselves. I’ve just been more content to go with the flow for that particular aspect of BSG and let the chips fall where they may, but it’s always interesting to read what directions others think they might be going with it.
I am old enough to remember the reference of "Imperious Leader" from the original series but I have not watched the reruns in a long time.
My recollection, however vague, is that "Imperious Leader" was more of an honorific title to whoever occupied the "swivel chair" on one of the Cylon Basestars for that particular episode, and not a specific reference to the head of the Cylon food chain. That chair was occupied by different individuals over the run of the series (Baltar at one point). So I don't know how pertinent the reference to the Imperious Leader will be in the emerging details about the Cylon theology. The higher ranking Cylons in the original series were different in physical appearance, being the "Lucifer" models, or, I dimly recall, having some insignia of rank for the "toaster" models.
Another echo of the original series is the phrase we've only heard once in the reconception, "By your command". This, I think, was the last line of the mini, uttered by a Number Six instance in response to a statement made by a Boomer instance ("don't worry, we'll track down those pesky humans" or words to that effect). Since there haven't been many clues to the implicit hierarchy among the human Cylon models, I don't know if this phrase was significant, or if it was simply a nod and a wink to the original series.
Internal Six refers to the Boomer model as being "always weak" in KLG I, so that would appear to undermine the proposition that that model is higher in the pecking order. A different Number Six instance appears to speak with some measure of authority to Simon in the "Farm" episode, criticizing his dealings with Starbuck, in a way that implies that she was acting in a managerial fashion. The four Cylons conversing at the end of "Final Cut" appear to be having a collegial discussion as equals, and we saw the same kind of exhanges on the rooftops of Caprica in the earlier "Boomer and Helo" episodes.
I've seen many posts on different threads that attempt to map the signs of the Zodiac to the human-Cylon models, none more interesting than the reference Mason posted earlier, but I think that kind of mapping is tenuous, at best, as are the many attempts to map the Cylon models to the original Greek pantheon of gods. For one thing each of the "avatars" for the signs of the Zodiac and each of the Greek gods, personify many different traits themselves, and these traits can be bent to fit almost any kind of behavior, which is one reason why people can write an endless number of daily horoscopes.
The association of the Cylon God with the 13th Lord of Kobol, the one associated with the 13th tribe that migrated to Earth, does have interesting implications, as pointed out eariler, but also presents a couple of problems. It has been frequently speculated in many posts in many threads that the Cylons are in a position to eliminate BSG and the fleet at any time they wish, and that they are only using them to ferret out the location of the 13th Colony, Earth, so that the Cylons can complete the task of eliminating humanity. If the one true Cylon God is the surviving or replicated Lord of Kobol that led the original inhabitants of Kobol to Earth, don't you think he would remember where it was, and not need BSG and the fleet to find it again for him? Could he have already dispatched the Cylons there to wreak the same kind of havoc that they've meted out on the Colonies?
Cylon theology doesn't seem to reject Colonial scripture as much as incorporate it as a "point of departure" with newer "revelations" in a similar fashion that Christianity builds on the Old Testament, or Islam incorporates the Christian scripture.
The Imperious Leader models were part of the IL-series model cylon, and included Lucifer and Specter.Originally Posted by anotherquestion
And, having searched the BSG Wiki, I see that the Imperious Leader figure is less of a fixed entity, and more of a faceless one, to be feared (unless of course, it's Baltar, who was too over-the-top to take seriously). But this faceless, mystery entity that commands all cylons and provokes fear in all his underlings, makes me think RDM drew inspiration for his "Cylon God" from the essential characteristics of the Imperious Leader.
From the commentary accompanying the miniseries, RDM acknowledges that the quote, "By your command," was less considered and more of a wink to the original fans.
Good point.
I agree, that this kind of mapping is speculative, at best, until there is some physical evidence or verbal confirmation of such a link. However, the portrayals of Aaron Doral and Leoben Connoy fit incredibly well with their sign characteristics. And I think we'll see more evidence of D'Anna Biers' Libran characteristics soon.
As Sharon and Six are regular cast members, it is harder to judge them based on a set of characteristics, we see almost too many sides of them to make clear correlations. But the Doral, Connoy, and Biers have all had feature guest appearances, where their character has been used to move the plot forward, making their words and actions much more deliberate. I think, the more featured model episodes we see, the more likely we'll be able to make definitive conclusions about how to map them.
Excellent point, but, as we know so little of Earth, we don't even know whether the 13th LOK wasn't expelled from his own colony before their arrival on Earth. So until we have more information, I'm going to keep my mind open to this possibility.
Agreed.
Thanks for the very thoughtful post.
If I remember right, wasn't the Imperious leader destroyed on his basestar at the end of "Saga of a Star World"? (I had to look up the episode title;-) ) REmember after they set the tylium on fire and eventually the whole planet exploded (I hate it when that happens). In subsequent episodes I believe Lucifer makes a comment such as "I don't know why he was chosen as Imperious Leader over me. We are of the same series -- the IL series." I'm pretty sure an Imperious Leader was THE Imperious Leader. Any other resident chair swiveler just happened to command that particular base star.
Remember that even the toasters had a heirarchy. As the raider was crewed by 3 toaster it was commanded by the one in the back. Presumably the two in front served the roles of Chekov and Sulu
As a side note. The TOS toasters used the term "centurion" but I can't remember in exactly what context. It was years later that I learned that a Roman Centurion was called that because he commanded 100 men. When I was watching TOS I was in junior high and my memory is a bit sketchy, after all. I can't remember if Centurion was used to refer to one of the toaster-slightly-higher-ups or all toasters.
BTW, I missed the "by your command" Did you say that was last line in the mini?? ARe you sure?
And I should probably move my thoughts from the "Pegasus" thread over here. We got a little off topic in that one. I'm not sure how to link over to it but read my post about the 13th LOK. I am proposing the possibility that the 13th LOK = cylon God = Colonial Lucifer.
Anything???
All of the Warrior Cylons were refered to as Centurians
Apparently Baltar was the Imperious Leader for a time, so, however absolute the IL's authority, the role isn't perpetuated by one all powerful computer that's meant to last until the end of time, and shifts from Cylon to Cylon. Baltar becoming Imperious Leader seems quite silly to me, and something that wouldn't be tolerated by the new-breed cylons.
I think we got a taste of that when a Six model looked to be the command unit of a "centurion" phalanx on Caprica. My impression is that the name centurion is simply another example of BSGspeak, like daggit, frak, centon, etc. And that the origin of the word doesn't apply to the BSG universe.Remember that even the toasters had a heirarchy. As the raider was crewed by 3 toaster it was commanded by the one in the back. Presumably the two in front served the roles of Chekov and Sulu
As a side note. The TOS toasters used the term "centurion" but I can't remember in exactly what context. It was years later that I learned that a Roman Centurion was called that because he commanded 100 men. When I was watching TOS I was in junior high and my memory is a bit sketchy, after all. I can't remember if Centurion was used to refer to one of the toaster-slightly-higher-ups or all toasters.
It's the last line, right before the credits role.
That idea fits well with the kind of logic we've followed so far. The next question for me, then, is why are the Cylons interbreeding with the Colonials? What is this mysterious 13th LOK, God outside of the Olympian pantheon, Cylon God, Colonial Lucifer, Imperious Leader planning? Without all this mythos behind the guiding light (of the morning) of the Cylons, it was easier to surmise that they wanted to be able to breed organically, rather than mechanically, in order to create a propagating race rather than a replicating one, but what now?
Is it simply a case of the original seed of jealousy from the "Jealous God" finding its way into the programming of the Cylons? One apparent answer just raises more questions.
Will the Cylon God have similar control over the hybrid offspring as it has over all the humano-cylons (with the exception of Boomer)?
What will the Cylon God gain once a race of hybrids is created, will he shut down the Cylons, kill off the humans, or simply breed both out of existence?
Is it simply after unity, is it trying to make peace between the two races?
And, if this jealous God has subverted the pantheon of 12 LOKs, does that justify his power? Has it manipulated them, dominated them, or have they submitted? Any way you look at it, it seems like it's won.
I'd be impressed, though, if our protagonists manage to destroy God/Lucifer, rather than submit to his plan.
Last edited by MASON; October 16th, 2005 at 10:15 PM.
I'd just like to raise one or two more cautionary points about about ascribing significance to the labels like "Lucifer", "Imperious Leader", or the "Cylon God". It seems easy to extract significance from these highly charged references that could lead to many contradictory extrapolations.
The first term "Lucifer" has a multifold resonance. Lucifer is mentioned by name only in some translations in one Biblical reference in the book of Isaiah 14:12. This is a problem, for the simple reason that Lucifer is a Latin word that doesn't belong in an older Hebrew text. Some scholars believe that the reference was to an early Babylonian king, and not a fallen angel. Others believe it's a reference to Ishtar. Instead of citing more references that could lead in still more directions, consider the basis of the Latin words themselevs Luicfer is a combination of words that mean "Light bearer" or "Light Bringer". Phosphoros/Eosphoros would be the Greek equivalent, which should be more relevant, given the other Greek references in the series.
Lucifer is also referred to as the "Morning Star", which is another reference to the planet Venus. Venus is the Roman Equivalent of Aphrodite, which is the Greek goddess of love most often identified in posts elsewhere with mappings to Number Six. Therefore you could make a fragile case that Number Six is the modern equivalent of the original series Lucifer model. The fact that Lucifer is also identified as Satan adds still more resonance to the association with Number Six, who seems bent on seducing Baltar by tempting him with "insider knowledge" drawn from the Cylons. I think it is interesting that these roles seemed reversed in the Pegasus episode, when Baltar offered the apple instead to Gina in an attempt to win her over, and she bit into it. My point is that "Lucifer" is an elusive and multivariate reference even in our own classical traditions, and lots of games have been played with the concept in our own culture.
"Imperious Leader" is a loaded term from the original series that we haven't seen referenced in the new BSG. From the previous posts, it origins and applicability seem slippery, ranging from the ultimate source of Cylon authority, to the shifting title of the swivel chair "middle manager", to the brand name of a line of Cylon models (the "IL" series). The writers of the new series appear to have taken great care to pick and choose which elements of the old series to bring over, and have often put their own spin on the re-imaginings (naming humanity as the creators of the Cylons, for example). I'm pretty sure that if we hear of an "Imperious Leader" later on in the new series, it will be another interesting departure from the original. As tempting and interesting as it would be to ascribe the Imperious Leader to be the Cylon God, that seem a risky speculation.
The "Cylon God" itself is still another murky reference. We've seen the Cylons mention the "one true God" and disparage "false idols" on many occasions, both in their dealings with the Colonials, and in conversations among themselves. Although it hasn't been made absolutely explicit, the Colonials appear to link the Lords of Kobol been explicitly to the Greek pantheon. Kara prays to two "totems" of the gods at the end of the episode where Leoban is spaced, naming them as the Lords of Kobol. There are other explicit references to Zeus, Athena, and I think Aphrodite, but I don't recall any others. It remains to be established that the one true Cylon god was once from among the Lords of Kobol, although the scripture referenced from the outtake does appear to point in that direction (It would be interesting if the particular Greek god were named).
It's still not established, however, that the one true god is an acting living presence at all. It may be that the Cylons believe that they are carrying out a preordained sequence of events that was set in motion in some great cycle of history (this has all happened before, and will happen again) by some "prime mover" that is no longer active in day-to-day events. Perhaps the Cylons are the living proof of "Intelligent Design".
From the original series, TOS:
1: Baltar was never the Imperious Leader. Yes, he sat in the swivel chair with the light shining up to his face to make him more sinister.
2. Baltar was able to sit in the swivel chair of a Basestar because the original Imperious Leader was destroyed when the planet from the episode "Saga of a Star World" exploded. The new one wasn't as nasty but more devious.
3: The Imperious Leader was a non-Centurion Cylon who was made to look like the reptilian species known as the Cylons who built the robots in the first place.
4: The "IL" series was an inside joke as "IL" referred to "Industrial Lights", a place we now know as "Industrial Lights and Magic".
5: The Imperious Leader's word was absolute.
6: I have a life despite my ability to remember all of this useless trivia from 27 years ago.
I'm quite aware of how numerous the meanings of Lucifer are, however, I like your connection to Venus, I was quoting "light of the morning" which Venus is thought to have represented by some. And I believe I mentioned Six as a possible connection to Lucifer the IL-series cylon in the Pegasus thread, as she is closest to Baltar, and most manipulative of the Humano-Cylons.
However, I do believe we're eventually going to see a manifestation of the Cylon God, nevermind that Six seems over-confident in her faith that God exists, but RDM originally planned to have Dirk Bennedict play God at the end of Kobol's Last Gleaming Part II. He abandoned the idea on the Network's advice, as it seemed like too much of a wink at the audience, but imagine it will weave its way back into the show soon enough. RDM seems too intent on dropping bombshells to keep it a mystery forever.
Any speculation on what or who we'll find in the mystery ship in episode 211? Could it be a flagship, perhaps?
Thanks for the correction, I had my doubts, as I've only seen The Living Legend, and he was swivelling around like nothing else, but the Imperious Leader was alive and well on Gamoray in that episode.
Can we expect a Lord Zed (Zoic)?
I'm sorry, that was shameful, let us never speak of that again.
I never doubted it.
I never doubted it.
Okay, I just read some more loosely canonical info that may shed some more light on our Lucifer question (excuse the pun).
Over at the Battlestar Wiki I stumbled over the following:
- According to the novelization of the Mini-series by SF novelist Jeffrey A. Carver, the name that Baltar called Six before she revealed she was a Cylon during the attack was "Natasi." This name appears to be Polish in origin. Since this name has never been mentioned in the events of the screenplay or regular episodes, its canonical value is debatable, although nothing else has been proposed.
- Carver stated that he pronounces "Natasi" as "Nuh-TAH-see", though fans could really pronounce it any way they want.
- Some fans have pointed out that "Natasi" spelled backwards makes "I, Satan". When this was brought to Carver's attention he said it was an unintentional coincidence.
Or was it?
there was the deleted scene "33" where Baltar was thinking of sex with the presidentOkay, I just read some more loosely canonical info that may shed some more light on our Lucifer question (excuse the pun).
Some fans have pointed out that "Natasi" spelled backwards makes "I, Satan". When this was brought to Carver's attention he said it was an unintentional coincidence.[/LIST]Or was it?
PRESIDENT ROSLIN = IT IS SLENDER PORN
When SAUL TIGH has a hangover -- THUG AILS.
Is BILLY KEIKEYA a cylon? He is LIKEABLY IKEY.
When KARA TRACE was ferreting around inside the raider she was A HACKER RAT
also STARBUCK = SUCK BRAT (I can think of at least three examples on at least two different levels)
But I can't decide on my favorite....
GAIUS BALTAR = GUILT AS ARAB
or keeping in mind that HUMAN CYLONS are "fully functional", are they MANLY ON SUCH?
Now here's an interesting one: Galen Tyrol = Try Galleonthere was the deleted scene "33" where Baltar was thinking of sex with the president
PRESIDENT ROSLIN = IT IS SLENDER PORN
When SAUL TIGH has a hangover -- THUG AILS.
Is BILLY KEIKEYA a cylon? He is LIKEABLY IKEY.
When KARA TRACE was ferreting around inside the raider she was A HACKER RAT
also STARBUCK = SUCK BRAT (I can think of at least three examples on at least two different levels
But I can't decide on my favorite....
GAIUS BALTAR = GUILT AS ARAB
or keeping in mind that HUMAN CYLONS are "fully functional", are they MANLY ON SUCH?
The Galleon that took the Lords of Kobol to the other systems? The possible mystery ship? Could there be a copy of the Chief on the Galleon?
Now this thread started out as a forum for interesting speculation on the nature of the Cylon God, but anagrams are just too much fun!
Kara Thrace = A Rat Hacker = A Rack Hater
I won't go so far as to post the anagrams for Shelley Godfrey, those might get me in trouble.
And of course...
TOO MANY ANAGRAMS = NEED TO GET OUT MORE
And, fittingly for the Battlestar Forum:
Gateworld = Let God War
william "husker" adama = Use whim, kill a armada.
kara "starbuck" trace = Brusk at a Racetrack
Battlestar Galactica = A Great Tactical Blast
Battlestar Pegasus = Stalag Beast Erupts
But, most appropriately for this thread, as it seems to be the way I feel, knowing there's not enough evidence to answer any questions about the Cylon God:
Cylon God = Godly Con
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