Wraith Defenders Club

[dasNdanger]

@ BlueJay - Though JM said culled children would be returned, Carl Binder said that Wraith would not hesitate to feed on a child. So, you see...we can't take any of their answers seriously unless they make it 'canon' by putting it into an episode, or the movie.

I like the idea of human corpses being absorbed into the ship - this would make sense, although Todd had the dead Wraith in Kindred removed (of course, they were poisoned, and that might be dangerous to the hive).

As far as the skin goes - some humans don't survive until the end of the feeding process. Sheppard survived as long as he did because he was 'stronger than any human' Todd had ever fed upon. I'm thinking someone like me would be dead long before my skin was dried up and useless.

@ The Veldt - That's an interesting idea about solar energy. If anyone was going to use it, the Wraith would - just like you say, like cold-blooded animals using the warmth of the sun to keep them moving. I hope someday they reveal this to us - but until then, let the theories abound!

RE: The skin thing. I don't think you're cold since, like you, I can look at this from the outside, and *think* like a Wraith in this regard. Wearing human skin doesn't make them evil, or demented, or anything else. They are not like Hannibal Lecter, but something much different.

Still, I suspect that Joe was just pulling our legs, so I'm not taking it very serious either way.

das

[Traveler64]

Here it is. The badboys, kickbutt, take no prisoners Wraith ship.

***take me to the mooooooooooooooooon, to Jupiter and Mars, lalala lala lalala***

Spoiler:

[dolfynnchick]

RE: The skin thing. I don't think you're cold since, like you, I can look at this from the outside, and *think* like a Wraith in this regard. Wearing human skin doesn't make them evil, or demented, or anything else. They are not like Hannibal Lecter, but something much different.

Still, I suspect that Joe was just pulling our legs, so I'm not taking it very serious either way.

das

I highly doubt they actually use human skin. If you look at Todd's coat, there are several different leathers in use. The coat itself seems primarily to be cow or calf skin, but a lot of the details (in the chest area specifically) are of crocodile/alligator and to a lesser extent, python/snake.

That said, it's obvious from looking at other costumes that it's a stamped leather (ie, not real exotics). I doubt the costume department uses real leather at all considering how suffocating it is. On the croc print, the skin is too flat and too uniform (all the square scaly bits are similar in shape and real croc is very lumpy). Python is damn expensive, and I doubt they'd blow the budget on that when they could spend it on blowing crap up.

If I had to imagine, I'd say human skin would be a lot softer, maybe like lamb skin leather? The way the coats move is too stiff for lamb. The pants, maybe. They seem a bit more giving. And really which of us is going to complain about that? Why bother trying to get into Todd's pants when you can be Todd's pants?

[dasNdanger]

Here it is. The badboys, kickbutt, take no prisoners Wraith ship.

***take me to the mooooooooooooooooon, to Jupiter and Mars, lalala lala lalala***

Spoiler:

OH MY FREAKIN' GUUUUUUH!!! THAT is beautiful! That's exactly how I envision that ship - with a grin and a twinkling eye! Well done!

I highly doubt they actually use human skin. If you look at Todd's coat, there are several different leathers in use. The coat itself seems primarily to be cow or calf skin, but a lot of the details (in the chest area specifically) are of crocodile/alligator and to a lesser extent, python/snake.

That said, it's obvious from looking at other costumes that it's a stamped leather (ie, not real exotics). I doubt the costume department uses real leather at all considering how suffocating it is. On the croc print, the skin is too flat and too uniform (all the square scaly bits are similar in shape and real croc is very lumpy). Python is damn expensive, and I doubt they'd blow the budget on that when they could spend it on blowing crap up.

If I had to imagine, I'd say human skin would be a lot softer, maybe like lamb skin leather? The way the coats move is too stiff for lamb. The pants, maybe. They seem a bit more giving. And really which of us is going to complain about that? Why bother trying to get into Todd's pants when you can be Todd's pants?

I agree!! And we would certainly keep every bit of him warm and comfy, eh?

I also doubt Wraith use human skin unless they have some way to make it stronger (as I've suggested elsewhere). Of course, maybe some things are made from human skin, like those black 'undershirts' they wear, or some of the queen's more delicate clothing. But the most logical explanation is that - since Wraith children do eat normally - the Wraith hunt large game to feed their young, and then make clothing from that. Remember that giant 'camel' head on the hive's table in The Rising? Surely there are large animals like that that the Wraith hunt and process for their young, and for their clothing.

Also, we can assume that if they steal picnic tables and fruit bowls from the humans, they probably steal leather goods, as well. The Wraith are like...space vampire goth pirates, or something...


das

[dasNdanger]

It's 2:20 am, and there are 8 people here. Why does all the fun start when it's time for me to go to bed??!

I was just thinking about Todd in FC.

Spoiler:

Anyone notice how it looked like it was hard for him to sit in that costume? Now - Chris is a thin guy, but he still looked like me when I squeeze into jeans a size too small, and they try to sit down. lol. I remember Chris saying that they're bound up in all that leather, so it must make it difficult to move sometimes. I also liked how he had to adjust his coat when he sat at the table in The Queen...you get the idea that Wraith - at least the males - don't sit much.

das

[LiquidSky]

Boy, such serious discussions here! From Wraith warning human skin to living a Wraith way of life.

First: Joe Mallozzi(sp) like to upset Wraith fans. He tries to turn us off from the Wraith. First he tried to make them all creepy but, that didn't work. We still love them. Then he tried to make them more devious, but that didn't work. We still love them. Now he says that the Wraith will feed on children and that they use human skin for their clothing.

This is my opinion: If the Wraith do feed on Children which I think they won't unless if there are no other food sourse around. Remember the Wraith need to have children around to when those children grow up they can repopulate the human race. It would be the Wraith undoing if they comsume all the kids. Ok, about feeding on children, don't we as human eat veal that is a young cow.

If the Wraith do use human skin for some of thier clothing then they don't waste anything. So if the Wraith use some parts of human skin mixed with other matierals to make say the undies for the Queen do I have a problem with that no. Maybe they use the expression "waste not, want not". So, they may use human skin and hair for some of thier clothing. yeah, it sounds gross but, remember they are an alien species. We don't think twice about using parts of an animal for our needs but, too we discard a lot of the animal too. Human beings are the most wastful creatures on the planet.

About wanting to live a Wraith way of life or want to believe in living a Wraith way of life. I have no problem with that. There are many people who adopted a way life that fit their lifestyle. You have many people who live thier lives totally devoted to Star Trek, or many people live a life that is Jedi or claim they are Jedis. Do I think they are nuts.? Who I'm I judge?. I think you can believe in what ever you want as long as you are not hurting people. It's just society expects the populace to live a standred code called "normal." And if those who don't are called deviants. In past history many people where prescuted for different beliefs. All religions are man created. Just a couple of my thought for what they are worth

LS

PS Sometimes I think JM should be horsewhipped To das: I read your comment on Joe's blog do Canadians eat stake and potatoes? Oh, yes, a bake potato with sour cream and chives and of course the stake too.

[dolfynnchick]

It's 2:20 am, and there are 8 people here. Why does all the fun start when it's time for me to go to bed??!

I was just thinking about Todd in FC.

Spoiler:

Anyone notice how it looked like it was hard for him to sit in that costume? Now - Chris is a thin guy, but he still looked like me when I squeeze into jeans a size too small, and they try to sit down. lol. I remember Chris saying that they're bound up in all that leather, so it must make it difficult to move sometimes. I also liked how he had to adjust his coat when he sat at the table in The Queen...you get the idea that Wraith - at least the males - don't sit much.

das

It's only 11:30 here, and I'm a night owl anyway (I have difficulty falling asleep before 3 am).

also they don't seem to have very many chairs on the hive ships. The only ones I've seen so far are the bench in Spoils of War and the very nice dining set Todd filched in The Queen (I really want to see them in the act of stealing it... I feel a fanart coming on).

I wonder what other human stuff Todd has lying around? He's got a dining set, some candles and a fruit bowl. Where is his framed cross stitch of "Home is Where the Heart Is"? His lovingly-knit wool afghans? Scrap books of past cullings and hive vacations? I bet he has copies of Martha Stewart Living and Better Homes and Gardens hiding in a recently re-upholstered storage ottoman. I bet if Sheppard and friends didn't eat that fruit he was totally going to try and make preserves out of them.

He's like Ariel in The Little Mermaid. "look at this stuff, isn't it neat?" and he dances around in his secret bat-cave (Todd-cave?) of stolen human stuff.

[Traveler64]

It's only 11:30 here, and I'm a night owl anyway (I have difficulty falling asleep before 3 am).

also they don't seem to have very many chairs on the hive ships. The only ones I've seen so far are the bench in Spoils of War and the very nice dining set Todd filched in The Queen (I really want to see them in the act of stealing it... I feel a fanart coming on).

I wonder what other human stuff Todd has lying around? He's got a dining set, some candles and a fruit bowl. Where is his framed cross stitch of "Home is Where the Heart Is"? His lovingly-knit wool afghans? Scrap books of past cullings and hive vacations? I bet he has copies of Martha Stewart Living and Better Homes and Gardens hiding in a recently re-upholstered storage ottoman. I bet if Sheppard and friends didn't eat that fruit he was totally going to try and make preserves out of them.

He's like Ariel in The Little Mermaid. "look at this stuff, isn't it neat?" and he dances around in his secret bat-cave (Todd-cave?) of stolen human stuff.

I'm a night owl also. Bad for my complexion and beauty...

Anyway, both Das and you made me recall something that struck me kind of funny/odd in FC--how artistically the candles were set on the table, all lit and all the same size. I did wonder where they filched them, 'cuz I haven't seen any kind of fire use anywhere around the hive. Bowls and fruits... and you're right (or was it Das?)==male wraiths don't sit very much. As a matter of fact, it seemed to me that when the Primary Queen said to Tey'la 'let us sit', it was an act of courtesy and a gesture of acceptance of another Queen, one equal to another. She would never 'sit' with a male Wraith.

[GoSpikey]

It's 2:20 am, and there are 8 people here. Why does all the fun start when it's time for me to go to bed??!

I was just thinking about Todd in FC.

Spoiler:

Anyone notice how it looked like it was hard for him to sit in that costume? Now - Chris is a thin guy, but he still looked like me when I squeeze into jeans a size too small, and they try to sit down. lol. I remember Chris saying that they're bound up in all that leather, so it must make it difficult to move sometimes. I also liked how he had to adjust his coat when he sat at the table in The Queen...you get the idea that Wraith - at least the males - don't sit much.

das

Das, it was me who said, as about the only one, that he looked really uncomfortable sitting down in that big leather coat, since it's so stiff, and his beard is resting on his collar...

All the others thought he looked 'sexy' and the uncomfortableness didn't even register..?

[GoSpikey]

Seen this?

Wraith icons:

http://ga-unicorn.livejournal.com/12853.html

[JadedWraith]

) I do find the idea of making them into sadistic one dimensional creatures problematic. This paints them as completely evil, beyond redemption.

Apart from the ewww factor, I have no problem with this. Technicalities aside, they're only utilizing ready available resources. What makes the Wraith sadistic, one dimensional creatures is the easiness they are made to consume each other to survive

Spoiler:

(e.g. The Defiant one, the Queen on the under water research platform...) There is a suggestion they have strong brotherhood ties: they are able to conjure each other by some sort of a psychic link , those family like ties are suggested by Todd in Common Ground...but then how easily Michael is rejected for having human traits or how the Hives betray each other, for nothing.

I am not going to dwell on the use or misuse of natural resources and animal products and by products ...this discussion belongs elsewhere. Just remind people that humanity has been consuming meat and using animal’s skins for cover clothes since the stone age. But my final note would be I would like the writers to give us some insight of loyalty among wraith and some suggestion of a moral code in their society, as foreign and alien that code might seem to us.

As many have said it before me, don't take JM too seriously, WK .

[dasNdanger]

@ LS - Honestly, my belief is that if you love the Wraith, you will not be turned off of them unless they do something extremely drastic with them (like turn them into Michael's hybrids, taking away their Wraithy appearance and culture). Even if Todd accepts the gene therapy, no longer needs to feed on humans and STILL wants to kill them and control the galaxy, I see nothing wrong with it since the PG IS their home, but it is not the home of the earthlings who have invaded.

I can accept most everything the Wraith do as long as it's established that it is 1. part of their nature, and 2. part of their culture, and not something born of evil. I think they HAVE established that. The Wraith are driven by an instinct to survive (Todd just said this again in The Queen), not by a malicious intent to be evil. They are also conditioned by their culture, and not inherently evil. So they can be different, even if they can't totally change (Ellia).

Personally, I love the Wraith as creepy bugmen with their slimy tech and all, and anything that adds to that 'creep' factor just makes them even better to me...which includes wearing human hides, if that's what they want us to believe. In my mind, it's not sadistic - it's creepy. Creepy is SO much different than sadistic.

Let me explain...

Sadistic implies that a perverse pleasure is felt while engaging in the action. It would imply that the Wraith skin humans and wear their flesh because they get some sort of twisted kick out of it - some sort of thrill, like wacked-out villains in horror flicks. However, the show has - for the most part - shown the Wraith as practical, as creatures who are 'on a mission', more so than creatures who are 'out for pleasure'. True, a few Wraith hunt for training and sport, but that's only a very few. And even if they are doing so for 'sport', it doesn't mean they get sadistic pleasure from it - many humans hunt for sport and don't get sadistic pleasure from it (though some do)...for most it's more of a rite of passage than anything.

So, IF (and that's a big if because I truly believe that Mallozzi is just pushing buttons) the Wraith do wear skin, I believe their mindset is a practical one and not a sadistic one. They are simply using resources that are readily available instead of searching for alternatives. I also think that most people just accept what Mallozzi said as 'ew, that's creepy!' and NOT 'ew, that's sadistic!' Many people - like me - love the Wraith because they ARE creepy, and anything that adds to that is a plus. I do NOT mind 'creepy'.

What I would mind, however, is if they suddenly turned Todd into the Lantean's arch enemy, undoing all the positive development they've done so far with his character. I don't mind if Todd and humans are at odds over a misunderstanding, or over a difference in opinion, but I will be VERY upset if Todd turns on them ONLY to kill them and gain ultimate power over all for the sake of gaining power (and not simply to save his people), thus becoming some evil overlord of the galaxy. That would be a great disappointment, and it would totally ruin the character.

So, creepy I can handle - evil for the sake of being evil, I cannot. So far, they have only shown one Wraith who was truly evil for evil's sake, and that was the SuperWraith in Sateda. Otherwise, the Wraith have been shown as tricksy and conniving, but not necessarily evil...and I can certainly handle tricksy. Tricksy and creepy - that's the Wraith, and that's how I imagine most think of them. Only a handful see them as evil and sadistic, and no matter what is said and done, those types will never see the Wraith as anything different, so no use trying to convince them otherwise.

Hey - and I'm glad there's someone in Canada who likes normal food!

@ dolfynnchick - Todd is definitely a 'borrowed, without permission' sort - to put it in the words of Captain Jack Sparrow. He 'borrowed' the Midway info, but with 'every intention of keeping it secret.' 'But you DIDN'T!' *SLAP!*

Here's the thing. The Wraith are very practical, and stark. They do not surround themselves with useless 'things' - everything has a purpose. I don't believe that Todd just picked that table up in his travels randomly, but that he purposely obtained it in preparation for his guests. Now, did he just go to a planet and ask all nice-nice for some furniture, and spare the humans from a culling? Or did he take it during a culling, knowing that soon he'd be entertaining humans aboard his ship instead of eating them? IF I were Todd - and knowing that Shep & Co. were soon coming for a visit - I would eat VERY well ahead of time, just in case. The fruit was very fresh - that means he had JUST culled a planet, and fed. Unless, of course, he actually did 'barter' for it (Todd: "Fruit and candles and a table, for your lives!" - Now THAT would really have the humans confused!! LOL! Can you imagine the stories? "Many ages ago the Wraith came, and culled a dining room set, and fruit bowls. We still do not know the meaning of this, but we refer to it as The Great Wraith Culling of Ikea. )

@ T64 - Yes, I think it was a very special invitation for the Queen to offer to 'sit' with Teyla. It seems that the Queens do this, sit around, pampered as it were, while the males are always on their feet, ready to work and to serve. Sitting, it would seem, is a luxury among Wraith. Heh...Todd's probably getting soft then, because he did a lot of sitting when he was stuck on Atlantis. I think of how Ronon pushed him down in the jumper seat in BAMSR. Perhaps Todd was prepared to stand, as is his habit, and Ronon had to not-so-gently remind him of how humans do things.

@ Spikey - I saw Todd's uncomfortableness (or Chris') - and though he DID stll look sexy, as I said before, he also looked like me trying to sit down while wearing too-tight jeans. At any moment, I was expecting him to pop his waistband button and let out a huge sigh of relief!!

@ JadedWraith - I don't even see Wraith cannibalism as making them sadistic or evil, either. Again, it boils down to instinct. As long as the show has established that factor, and has established that the Wraith do what they do out of an instinct to survive, then feeding on one another is no different (to me) than when animals eat their own kind (sometimes even their own young) in order to survive, or in acts of domination. It's a TOTALLY different mindset to eat out of survival (shipwreck victims) or eat out of sadistic pleasure (Hannibal the cannibal, or Jeffrey Dahmer). Even humans have eaten their own children during times of great starvation...so hunger can make you do things you once thought yourself incapable of. Since I have never experienced that sort of hunger, I cannot judge those who have.

And I TOTALLY agree that we need to see more of Wraith morality among their own kind. We did get to see what IS acceptable, and what is NOT, it The Queen:

Spoiler:

It IS acceptable for a Queen to kill another, but it is not acceptable for a male to kill a queen (or, at least, not to kill the Primary). It must also be acceptable for a queen to feed on a male (SoW) - the queen thought nothing of it, and the commander only objected because he believed Todd to still be useful to them. As for some cultural things, we learned that it seems it's not acceptable for a male to be in the presence of another queen, uninvited. The Wraith do not like surprises. We learned that males must show submissiveness before their queens. The Queen is a Dominatrix, males must submit to her (oh, how she must love that power!). We also learn here that MOST Wraith (who are primarily male) LIKE it this way "Most Wraith seek to be ruled, they fear to be without a Queen" - that is very telling. First, it tells us that the writers must be a buncha guys who like being tied up and spanked. Second, it tells us the male Wraith are probably just the same. They LIKE being dominated by a female, by their queen..they like being led, they like obeying orders. It gives them structure, it gives them a purpose. Todd, however, seems not to be of this sort. He seems to be the one who wants to do the 'spanking', not the other way round. I suppose it's because he was away from his kind for so long, he realized that if you need to get something done, sometimes you have to step up and be the one who takes control, regardless of whether you are queen or once-submissive male. So, we have learned a LOT about their culture, and a bit about their morals, as well. Still, we need more - lots more - and I hope we eventually get that.

das

[naamiaiset]

http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html

http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html

^ screen caps for "first contact" and "tracker".

[dolfynnchick]

MGM yet again hasn't put up the trailer, but a few of the episode stills are up, including one new one with Todd in it.

[Laura Dove]

http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html
http://www.macsyourman.com/atlantis/...aps/dvd-1.html
^ screen caps for "first contact" and "tracker".

Already said for "First Contact".