'The Kindred, Part 2' (419) General Discussion

[MerryK]

I'm not usually as fond of two-parters (including finales/premieres) as I am of standalones, and this one was no different. Very moving, but not on my list of favorites. I did realize why I liked Keller while watching this: she's not Beckett, and she doesn't try to be. Her personality is not as loud, her choices less passion-driven (though her focus sometimes falters). She reminds me of someone I know, and as I also know someone rather like Beckett, it's hard for me to understand why anyone wouldn't like both.

[Willow'sCat]

What the heck are people complaining about??? Oh, BOo Hoo.... Carson's a clone.... it makes WAY more sense than Michael soooome how having the time to clone Carson in 'Misbegotten', replacing the original, taking the original with him, and STILL managing to escape! All he had to do here was tag along a sample of DNA. I don't get it...... what, not enough stuff blow up? Maybe too emotional? Don't like Michael's very REAL acting? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but for me, this episode was wayy powerful and extremely well done.

Well for me it was bad, stupid and makes no sense out side of pandering to a vocal part of fandom.

Carson is a thing now, he is not real... people can go on and on about him being flesh and blood but he is NOT Carson he is a clone, he just isn't Carson. We are more then our DNA!

A bad bad episode. *slaps it with rolled up news paper*

[Killdeer]

Well for me it was bad, stupid and makes no sense out side of pandering to a vocal part of fandom.

Carson is a thing now, he is not real... people can go on and on about him being flesh and blood but he is NOT Carson he is a clone, he just isn't Carson. We are more then our DNA!

A bad bad episode. *slaps it with rolled up news paper*

This may not be our Carson, but I don't know that I would say it's "a thing". I think a cloned person would be just as much of a person as a person created the normal way. It wouldn't be the SAME person, because the whole transfer of memory thing doesn't work in real life. But can we say a cloned sheep is not a sheep because it was cloned instead of birthed?

[Killdeer]

As far as the episode goes, I was rather unimpressed. I don't really have a lot to say though. These were the two episodes I was most looking forward to this half of the season, and both were a disappointment.

A good episode for Rodney, and for Carson. I really wish they had never killed him off.

I wasn't so impressed with anything else, or really anyone else. Except the scene with JF's kids-that was cute. And it was nice to see Halling again, although I prefer CH as Todd. And Teyla.....

I'm really trying to give Teyla a break because I know these were Rachel's last days of filming before her baby was born, and so I'm sure she couldn't do a lot of active stuff. But she ended up looking completely helpless here. Maybe she couldn't do the active stuff, but what happened to those super mind control powers that we saw back in SoW? I would have thought she would have at least tried to control Michael, especially when her son was at risk. But we never saw her even try. There should have been something....something to make her look not so much like the "damsel in distress." And her refusing to leave when Carson came for her...that was completely stupid. There were ways to write that scene without making her look so foolish (I think someone else has already mentioned that).

*sigh* Oh well.

EDIT: I forgot to say - I did really like the ending scene. It was very good, and poor Rodney. And Ronon with his hug, and Sheppard.... I actually didn't mind Carson telling Sam about the letter. As the commander of the base, she would have to authorize that letter getting back to his mother, so I think that was just him sweettalking her into letting it happen.

I am very glad to have some version of Carson back. He's a very strong character, and I think he added a lot to the show. I'm still disappointed that he's (S5 spoilers)

Spoiler:

only going to be in five episodes next season. But maybe it'll turn out to be more. Jewel was only going to be in eight episodes at first and it turned out to be eleven.

EDIT2: Oh - hey! Whatever happened to that super plague that was sweeping the galaxy last episode? We didn't even get a mention of it!

[Lord batchi ball]

This episode was average I was expecting a lot more out of this episode. IMHO last weeks episode was much better.

I liked seeing Carson, and I am glad they didn't put a bomb in his chest or somthing that would have been stupid.

Liked the comment made by Carson: "I feel like a Dogs' Breakfast" that would pretain to David Hewletts movie. kind of made me laugh.

I thought the control that Carson could'nt kill Mike was pretty sweet. So does that mean that Carson could communicate with the Wraith or is it a one way streak?

But overall a average 7/10 rating.

[Briangate78]

This episode goes up there with Lifeline and Midway, imo. It was not the best ep of the season but it was likely in most people's top 5! Carson returning was very well done by the writers. It was not done in a cheap and lazy way and it truly makes the show stand as a Sci Fi show with the whole cloning bit. I am just confuzzled to what some people were expecting. I wanted 5 things to happen...

1.) Mention of Weir being dead

2.) A scene where Teyla and Carson come face to face( Wow could not get better than that)

3.) An ending what would not be all happy joy joy, and the team still needing to search for Teyla and truly strike up an amazing season finale.

4.) Carson's return done in a clever way and not cheap.

5.) The emotions of the characters seeing Carson or some kind of Carson alive ( Simply Brilliant)

Did these all happen? Yes they did to me. I am happy and loved this episode for that!

[LiLTiff17]

I am not a Keller fan at all, but that is a REALLY idealized view of doctors. They are human, and react as individuals, some brave and selfless, some not so much. And most (in the US anyway) do pick and choose their patients. In many cases you are spit out of luck if you don't have insurance.

Yes I am not a Keller fan either, nor can I say though that I completely despise the character. That being said even if I did hate Keller with all my being, it doesn't change the fact that Keller IS human and her reaction was normal, for a doctor, for an individual.
She wasn't treating a president, average joe, or a random killer, drugdealer etc, she was treating a man who tried to kill HER and Teyla. Of course she wasn't expecting that and it immobilized her for the equivalent of 5 seconds, then she got back to her senses and got back to work and treated him as she would any other patient. I am 100 percent sure that some doctors, oath or not would have refused to treat a person who endangered/tried to take the life of them or their friend, or certainly wouldn't have put their best foot forward in regards to treatment. If once Keller noticed him and she mumbled 'oh, its the guy who tried to kill us' and just went on as normal, THAT would have been ridiculous and totally unbelievable. She got momentarily thrown off, then got back on track right away and did what she had to do.
Also she was faced with the possibility of having to kill him back on New Athos, the guy mocked her claiming that she as a doctor who was suppose to protect life not take it. Her being the good doctor/person who didn't want to kill anyone didn't. She did temporarily immobilize him though.

Basically I don't understand how else she would have initially reacted upon seeing a man who tried to kill her.

[PG15]

CAAAAAAAAAAARSOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!



Awesome episode! There was a great mix of action and character moments (specfically, McKay-Carson, which was just sweetness), but it all really comes down to Carson. This was his episode, his spotlight, and what a performance PM gave! So let's start with that.

The opening exposition scene between Carson and Rodney was just hard to watch, namely because it must have been torture for both characters to basically recount some horrible events and coming to terms with what has happened. I loved seeing how the pieces all fit together with regards to this Carson's existence. And then, of course, it was just one piece of bad news after another. Seeing Carson miffed like he was after hearing that his mom thought him dead was just the icing on the cake; an excellent way to reintroduce the Carson personality back into the character, and to remind us of the person he was (he's a mama's boy ). And then, and I was hoping they would do it, they mentioned Weir. Fantastic. Like I said, both McKay and Carson must've hated this conversation; it's no wonder the former waited so long to do it (I don't buy his "we're all very busy" excuse).

And I gotta love that "God, it's good to see you!" from Rodney at the beginning. No doubt it was really David Hewlett talking to Paul McGillion, if you know what I mean.

Then finally, there was that sad line from Carson, "now for the better part of 2 years, I imagined what would be like the day I finally got back to Atlantis...this isn't exactly how I pictured it". Superb line, superb delivery, superb sad music. It really makes you think about everything he has had to endure during those 2 years spent with Michael while hanging on that miniscule hope that, one day, his friends will burst through the door and get him out of that hellhole. Hopefully this will be capitalized on in the future.

But really, the thing I loved the most about this episode is the scenes between Rodney and Carson, which I think was really the centerpiece here. From the beginning, you can tell that Rodney is thinking less-than-logically, and for good reason. In his own words, one of his best friends ever has come back from the dead! His absolute denial of the truths in Carson's words in the scene where the latter discovers his true past was really telling; Rodney looked like a kid on the morning of Christmas Day. Then, thoughout the rest of the episode, he had to deal with the fact that his best friend is dying...again. I think this is reason enough for him seeming on the edge for most of the episode. Speaking from personal experience (and I consider myself to be pretty close to Rodney, hence the avatar ), being blindsided by something like this could really confuse and disturb you. You want to like what's happened, but you also know there's a little niggle at the back of your head telling you that this is too good to be true, and it was, in this case. Rodney's snapping at Sam about how they're treating Carson was just the perfect example of this; normally, he wouldn't have been this crass to Sam, but this was Carson we're talking about, and his mind was rather preoccupied with that. And then, the wonderful scene where a desperate Rodney pleads with Carson to not go, and having the latter say to Rodney what he told him earlier...just great. Again, Rodney doesn't want him to go, but he doesn't want to keep Carson from doing what he want either. Major confusion there. Brilliantly played.

The interactions between Carson and Keller were interesting to watch. It now seems obvious just how different, and yet similar Carson and Keller are. Keller kind of remind me of Elliot from Scrubs. When she's not doing doctor duties, she acts just like any other person. She has flaws and quirks that not everyone may like, but that's just how she is. The moment that she needs to be a doctor though, she comes alive and becomes purely professional, as shown by the scene where she was getting ready to treat Nable. Carson, on the other hand, has the experience, and is thus very steady even when he's not being a doctor. There is no doubt that there are fundamental differences between the two people, but if it were an emergency, I wouldn't be bothered if my doctor was Keller instead of Beckett, or vice versa. Both have the skillz, as far as I'm concerned.

And then there was the ending. I loved it, though unlike some past moments it didn't make me misty-eyed (though my lowering lip was quivering a little). Some have said that this was almost over the top. Well, I think that was the point. This is the goodbyes they never got in Sunday. Carson was telling them to do a few things for him - something they didn't do in Sunday; they never went fishing with him despite his suggestions. But this time, they won't take his pleas for granted anymore. Sheppard's promise was powerful, and so was the hug from Ronon, which was just so Ronon given that almost nothing was really said; everything was action. Then Rodney, who as I have said, was just trying, the entire episode, to comprehend how he felt about all of this. His babbling near the end was precisely the result of that, trying to convince Carson and himself that everything was going to be alright. And that final pull-out...CAAAAAAAARSOOOON!!!

Oh, but he'll be back!

Alright, moving on. Obviously there was the other plot in this episode, namely Teyla's story. Some have said that she was being overdramatic. I don't agree, based simply on the fact that this was truly a horrible situation to be stuck in. She is literally stuck with a maniac attempting God knows what experiments on her people and soon, herself and her child! I have no doubt that every one of my words would be filled with stress and fear if I were to talk in that situation. Rachel did a great job here showing just how afraid she is at what's about to happen to her.

I loved her reunion wth the Athosians; seeing Halling again was wonderful, but slightly tempered by the fact that I knew him much better as Todd. Still, the man's brilliance shone through when he went and defended Teyla, and then yelled with anger and fear when she was taken away at the end. I felt for him, I really did. It was great to see though, at the end, when they were freed.

The focus of Teyla's story is, of course, with Michael. Though I gotta give props to the subtle bit with Kanaan before Mikey first appeared. Even though we don't know him that well, seeing Teyla's relationship with him and seeing him struggling, no matter how acutely, with Michael's mind control, is really something worth rooting for. Here's to more Kanaan conflict in Season 5!

Finally, we have Michael. I love LOVE LOVE how he's always 1 step ahead of our heroes; the fact that he knew they were coming, that he had programmed into all of his creations to not hurt him, etc. Then there is his absolute cold-heartedness with regards to life, which if you think about it, is probably because of us. We treated him as an experiment, and now he's treating us like one. We got him onto this terrible road. It spared him no guilt to murder an innocent girl, and certainly none when he killed off dozens of people near the end of the episode. After all, they were just...experiments. Cold, demented, and brilliant; that's the kind of villain I love, and Michael is perfect. It also doesn't hurt that he's Trip! I can't wait to see more of him next season. Hopefully he won't be killed off so fast...or at least, if he should die, give him something spectacular!

Oh, and...A DOG'S BREAKFAST!!!! I was watching this on a computer, so when that came up, I just guffawed. Not that it was particularly funny, but I just LOVE it when a quirky little reference like this come up, especially when it's so in-joke-worthy! In fact, I had to pause the episode and clap, just because it was so...AWESOME.

Lastly, I just like to mention the shootout near the end of the episode. It wasn't just your typical affair, because of the direction. I loved how they did a few sweeping shots, which I love, like the one where it closes in on Shep from above, and later when they're leaving the building, when they swept across the stairs as the team ran down it. Those are the shots that give the show a cinematic feeling. Loved it.

So overall, not a particularly action-filled 2 parter, but certainly a lot of answers and plots given and tied up, and plenty more set sailed. There were character moments galore, and we got to see Carson again after a year of being missing from our screens. While The Kindred may not be the best 2-parter out there, it's certainly entertained me enough for me to give it...

Score: 10/10

Now let's see The Last Man top this...which I think it can (even if, technically, it can't ).

[gatechick]

Am I the only girl here ????

I'm with you here!!!!

[Shipperahoy]

There were a couple of really nice moments in this episode and it kept me watching throughout but it mostly seemed kind of like filler until the big finale. When nothing much happened in Kindred 1 I didn't really mind because I figured that they were saving it for part 2 but not much really happened in this one either. Not much changed with Teyla. She's still captured, preggers, and Michael's still trying to get her baby. In a repeat of the end scene of part 1 the team almost rescues her only to have Michael fly off with her yet again. We did learn that her convenient plot line of a baby daddy may still be in there somewhere behind all that make-up so there's that.

Then there's Carson. I am so glad to have had him back that even the kind of cliche cloning plot couldn't ruin how nice it was to see, and hear, him again. I actually loved how the team reacted to Clone Carson. Each person had their own individual reaction and those interaction were the best parts of the episode for me. McKay was actually endearing to me in this episode in his almost desperate attempt to pretend that Carson was going to be fine and I love that one of the most skeptical people on Atlantis was so quick to embrace clone Carson.

Then there was Ronan. I actually got choked up a bit at the end when Ronan admitted that losing Carson all over again was what he'd been afraid of and thus why he'd ignored him since his return. Carson's "big man" comment and the hug just cemented it. It was very moving.

[Willow'sCat]

Well Carson is a thing to me. And one of the reasons I really think this is a bad episode is because McKay was so out of character, the man has let his guilt and grief blind him *obviously* that is the only explanation for him being so quick to stand up for this thing called Carson.

What would have been better imho is to have the one person who could be excused for being skeptical about this actually be bloody skeptical about it!

Also why did Teyla just stand there like an idiot! Why did she risk her child's life by waiting for Kannan? That is another totally out of character moment and I cannot forgive it. Teyla is so much smarter, and more in control of her emotions, then that.

This was a story where they needed to bring Carson back but the way they did it was far from original, entertaining or thought provoking.

*shakes head*

[gatechick]

[QUOTE=Willow'sCat;7828248]
Also why did Teyla just stand there like an idiot! Why did she risk her child's life by waiting for Kannan? That is another totally out of character moment and I cannot forgive it. Teyla is so much smarter, and more in control of her emotions, then that.
[QUOTE]

Although I also wanted to shake Teyla for doing that, in a way I guess it was to show how emotional she had become. She really wants her child's father to be with her and her son. Seeing him like that may have really rocked her and thrown her, so that she just was not thinking. Besides, it wouldn't give the Atlantis team anything to next week.

[Willow'sCat]

Although I also wanted to shake Teyla for doing that, in a way I guess it was to show how emotional she had become. She really wants her child's father to be with her and her son. Seeing him like that may have really rocked her and thrown her, so that she just was not thinking. Besides, it wouldn't give the Atlantis team anything to next week.

Hmm, next week? I think more like season two opener. *edit* OK so I have had a hard day...morning... whatever! Season 5! Is what I meant to say.

And I know, it is the same reason Carson is there to rescue her... the one guy Michael can control with his mind. *makes spooky wavy hands*

I just tire of all these blatant set ups. I would love to actually not see it coming for a change.

[Shipperahoy]

Yeah, you'd think Teyla would want to get her baby the heck out of there but I can see how she'd want to try to save the convenient plot line...err Kanaan. This isn't the first time this season that she's made some pretty sketchy decisions regarding the safety of her unborn child.

I agree that the clone thing isn't very original or creative but there are only so many ways that they could have brought Carson back from the dead and at least this way he figured in to Michael's experiments. I can also see why McKay would be so happy to have Carson back, clone or not so his behavior didn't seem to terribly out of line to me. Even scientists can be effected by their emotions sometimes.

[PG15]

I can sort of understand where folks are coming from with all the Keller hate since it isn't easy to see your favorite character replaced, never mind having him replaced with a Buxom Young Thang,

Jewel Staite is not buxom.