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    Asgard degeneration over repeated cloning

    I regret that I don't quite follow the described Asgard degeneration over repeated cloning. Genetic hazards over asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction are similar, in terms of accumulated damage to the DNA; accumulated changes to DNA is how evolution happens, plus natural selection to weed out the unfit mutations; that is why I am a man and not a labyrinthodont amphibian or a crossopterygian fish.

    The often-quoted risk from cloning is telomeres getting shorter, but surely ones as skilled as the Asgard know how to re-lengthen telomeres during cloning, and how to check DNA (chromosomal, mitochrondrial, etc), and any replicating RNA that they have, for copying errors.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

    I read a Stargate fan-fiction story whose author rejected the canon Asgard "geno-suicide" and described the Asgard as still alive and well after the end of all the canon serieses and movies and after all the canon enemies had been defeated and put an end to.
    Last edited by AnthonyAppleyard; 14 December 2014, 02:40 PM.

    #2
    The nature of the Asgards' physical degeneration was always unclear to me, so I also am eager to learn what GW members can offer.

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      #3
      I always figured that they eventually lost all original Asgard bodies and so used their cloned DNA to make more and maybe with such an extreme measure of immortality they decided to increase their brain capacity or make it so they could not get sick etc and just ended up with DNA that was useless.

      Essentially everything that was Asgard about them was gone by the end.

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        #4
        Their DNA was fully functional, else a start cell used to clone from would not develop into a working intelligent Asgard body that can maintain and fly a big spaceship.

        It could be that too much artificial care without natural selection risks losing features needed to survive in the wild, same as on Earth most domestic ducks have lost the instinct to sit their own eggs and to lead their ducklings to water.

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          #5
          Originally posted by escyos View Post
          I always figured that they eventually lost all original Asgard bodies and so used their cloned DNA to make more and maybe with such an extreme measure of immortality they decided to increase their brain capacity or make it so they could not get sick etc and just ended up with DNA that was useless.

          Essentially everything that was Asgard about them was gone by the end.
          I've argued in the past that it's a combination of two factors:

          *the asgard lost their original clones (maybe even on multiple occasions), resulting in a more difficult path to trace back. The main reason would be the Replicator war.

          *the asgard can't live in an older clone one-on-one because their mind gets bigger with age, requiring each next clone to have adaptations to "fit" in an asgard.

          Remember that each asgard known was thousand of years old. If you know that in current times, humans get more forgetful to maintain a sufficient intellect (more experiences "clog" the brain, akin to a computer getting slower when used more), it's not surprising the Asgard would need to update their bodies.

          However, the very flaws due to cloning (note: each time DNA is fiddled with, damage can occur and faulty repairs can occur) may be in the Asgard's modifications. Each new flaw would require patching, but the original patch notes so to speak are gone. Not only are the Asgard reverse-engineering their older designs, but each new upgrade brings potential weaknesses that too need to be fixed. Genetic faults that weren't a problem before, may become a problem with a new patch.

          So that's likely why the asgard had so much trouble: they couldn't just go back to an earlier version due to the required modifications, yet couldn't stay in a newer body due to the defects. Yet "porting" over the changes is a genetic modification that may induce genetic defects on it's own, furthering their problems.

          Finally, sexual reproduction works because the genes get refreshed. That is, I have two sets of DNA strands, and if one has damage, the other may be just fine. If i pick a non-related partner, the DNA splits and the likelihood of the other having the same defect on the same place is very small, and the DNA splitting will ensure there's a good chance that a child will have a net total of healthy genes.

          With incest, genetic defects i have are likely to be carried by family too. You increase the chance that two faulty genes are given on. With enough generations, all the murk in your DNA can surface. The Asgard don't have this, so any genetic defects need to be found and fixed by the asgard themselves. Yet DNA can be damaged yet harmless, only becoming a problem when combined with other genes. A fatal cocktail of such genes likely occured with the Asgard, putting a swift end to their race.



          Last but not least: uploading would've worked, yes, but a race that fought essentially that very thing for possibly centuries would have a bad feeling with becoming the very thing they fought so hard.

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            #6
            I think that I remember Thor saying that a new disease was attacking the Asgard, who had no resistance to it because of very low genetic diversity.

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              #7
              But shouldn't the Asgard have the knowledge to create new genes in a lab?

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                #8
                Originally posted by Master Chief Jack O Niell View Post
                But shouldn't the Asgard have the knowledge to create new genes in a lab?
                Well technically the Asgard break stargate's rule of lego genetics.

                In reality, genetics is a lot more complex. you're using chemicals to "read" chemical reactions to produce more chemicals that somewhere down the line produce some sort of effect.

                To put it bluntly: any time you read about "gene X is for Y", it's usually a controller gene that turns on/off many other genes. The vast majority of genes encode chemicals which can undergo dozens of reactions with dozens of other chemicals, proving feedback, competing with others etc. You can't add a "gene for longer legs".

                So while the Asgard can doubtlessly make new genes, a DNA treatment to fix one disease may react in such a way that it causes 20 other problems. You're dealing with a machine where, if you pull one lever, a dozen others change position.


                Or to put in in stargate terms: Genetics is like the control table in the Dakara weapon: push one button and every other button changes position,

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                  Well technically the Asgard break stargate's rule of lego genetics.

                  In reality, genetics is a lot more complex. you're using chemicals to "read" chemical reactions to produce more chemicals that somewhere down the line produce some sort of effect.

                  To put it bluntly: any time you read about "gene X is for Y", it's usually a controller gene that turns on/off many other genes. The vast majority of genes encode chemicals which can undergo dozens of reactions with dozens of other chemicals, proving feedback, competing with others etc. You can't add a "gene for longer legs".

                  So while the Asgard can doubtlessly make new genes, a DNA treatment to fix one disease may react in such a way that it causes 20 other problems. You're dealing with a machine where, if you pull one lever, a dozen others change position.


                  Or to put in in stargate terms: Genetics is like the control table in the Dakara weapon: push one button and every other button changes position,
                  But the Asgard are supposed to be hundred of thousands of years more advanced than humans in the SG universe, they would have been able to do Computer simulations then actually testing to get something that would work. So logically they should be able to know much more about DNA than humans do and what it takes to make sure everything works.

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                    #10
                    Thor said that their mass suicide was to avoid their technology getting into the hands of the Ori. If only he had waited a little longer before pressing the button, he would have seen the end of the Ori as seen in the movie "Ark of Truth".

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                      #11
                      Although the Asgard are far from a perfect race, and have to fix mistakes they themselves made possibly thousands of years ago, I always assumed they would eventually find a way to use the body they found in Season 5 episode 22 (revelations) to come up with a new host. I thought they would've been able to circumvent the degeneration of their DNA by using the DNA of one of their ancestors from before they messed had messed with it. But I can only assume this was even to hard for the Asgard, and seeing how they had to spend a lot of their time and resources on the replicators at the time, I am afraid this new disease they faced prevented them from spending the necessary time on this matter.

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                        #12
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

                        The fault may be partly in the real world :: the script writers may have decided that the Asgard had become too much of a "deus ex machina", and felt driven to get rid of them.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by AnthonyAppleyard View Post
                          Thor said that their mass suicide was to avoid their technology getting into the hands of the Ori. If only he had waited a little longer before pressing the button, he would have seen the end of the Ori as seen in the movie "Ark of Truth".
                          There are ways the asgard could've saved themselves like uploading. But i think that given their history of fighting robots, the idea of becoming a robot simply was a sacrifice they wouldn't make.

                          Originally posted by Master Chief Jack O Niell View Post
                          But the Asgard are supposed to be hundred of thousands of years more advanced than humans in the SG universe, they would have been able to do Computer simulations then actually testing to get something that would work. So logically they should be able to know much more about DNA than humans do and what it takes to make sure everything works.
                          When have we ever seen a race that was realistically hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us? for their age, the Ancients have fairly crappy tech.



                          Originally posted by RunnerRonon View Post
                          But I can only assume this was even to hard for the Asgard, and seeing how they had to spend a lot of their time and resources on the replicators at the time, I am afraid this new disease they faced prevented them from spending the necessary time on this matter.
                          Yes, and i think this plays into the greater picture as well: the asgard lacked time and resources. With the replicators striking relentlessly at every turn, there might not have been much time and resources to do cloning 100% correct. Besides, the replicators likely destroyed various breakthroughs setting back the Asgard time and again. that they didn't even have an old body lying around in my opinion says enough about availability of resources. It's safe to say that the vast majority of their culture and history was being kept in a database, not in a museum like we do.


                          Given the hyperdrive and manufacturing capacity of the asgard, it would be unsurprising if they once commanded a galactic or intergalactic empire. I can't help but wonder just how much the Asgard lost.

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                            #14
                            I never, ever, bought the whole mass death thing, yeah fine photocopying themselves over thousands of years meant the lines got a bit blurred because they were using refilled toner rather than originals but still, the fact that TPTB expect us to buy that AN ENTIRE SPACEFARING RACE managed to get back to a single planet, before the Ori turned up just to commit mass suicide, no, I dont buy it, end of story, full stop.
                            We already know Loki was messing with humans, there were the PG Asgard, the earlier Asgard that SG1 found and **** knows whoelse out there for what ever reasons...

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                              #15
                              And, it seems to me that the Asgard saw the end that was made of the Milky Way Replicators and of the Pegasus galaxy Replicators, and they would have known that THAT war was thankfully over.

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