problem with 1969

[airdish]

I just re-watched it and there is something I still can’t figure out. In the end when Cassandra says that Sam told her what to do, how is that possible? Sam was in the past and then the future with no time to tell adult Cassandra the 411. The only way I can get it to work is if time is like a repeating loop and we are just seeing the most current time through but living with the effects of previous loops? Do you understand what I mean? Please help to explain this to me.

[veneticuss]

I think its some kind of repeating history.

[veneticuss]

I personaly think that even the Ancients didn't figured it out. (Window of oppurtuniti) :)

[KingKha]

from what i understand it is a repeating loop-hole type effect (i actually think that there is an inconsistency with the time travel thing, but that we be address later). Sam tells cassandra that in the future, how ever many years in the future it is, she has to be at this exact spot at this exact time, and she has to send them back into the past. just like the younger hammond helped sg-1 when they returned to the past. its all a big loop / cycle thing.

[KingKha]

i actually have this whole time travel theory also, if you want to hear it let me know and ill explain the whole thing to you

[omnian]

Shoot....I was going to say something like that but I kept on confusing myself :D

[veneticuss]

So what loop is actually real? Or is the future already written somewhere?

[veneticuss]

As i said. This is even too complicated for the Ancients

[veneticuss]

I mean in what loop can something go terribly wrong?

[KingKha]

its a tricky thing time travel is. on one hand its a never ending cycle as in 1969, but other times they are able to alter it like the episode with the note that had jacks blood on it telling them not to go to p....(cant remember name of episode). in that episode they were able change the future or past, or timeline, or whatever it is called. time travel is way too confusing

[omnian]

Indeed it is.....made my headache even worse, lol.

And it was 2010 (the one with the note sent to the past).

[KingKha]

Indeed it is.....made my headache even worse, lol.

And it was 2010 (the one with the note sent to the past).
thanks. wasnt there 2 episodes that dealt with that note though

[omnian]

thanks. wasnt there 2 episodes that dealt with that note though

The one sending the note was 2010. The one that dealt with the warning was 2001.

[KingKha]

is there a big following of stargate in the UK?

[omnian]

Apparently there is but I haven't met a great deal of UK Gaters. Either that or they're just hiding......

We must be doing something right though cos we get the DVDs before America does! Shame we don't get the comics.....but that's another story.

[KingKha]

ive never understood that. why do you guys get the dvd's before us?? its like that with a lot of other series also. you can always have someone send you the comic book, shipping is gonna suck though

[Mr Prophet]

ive never understood that. why do you guys get the dvd's before us?? its like that with a lot of other series also. you can always have someone send you the comic book, shipping is gonna suck though

That's what we have FP and the Abstract Sprocket for.

[KingKha]

what is FP and the Abstract Sprocket?

[Mr Prophet]

what is FP and the Abstract Sprocket?

Forbidden Planet is the UK's largest (I believe) comic store chain; Abstract Sprocket is Norwich's non-franchised answer to FP. Either will order US comics for free if you ask nicely and are prepared to wait for their next shipping batch; assuming they don't already stock it.

[omnian]

Cool.....shame there aren't any near me :(

Oh well....

[Mr Prophet]

Cool.....shame there aren't any near me :(

Oh well....

FP also do mail order, I believe. However - to keep it on topic - I feel sure that 35 years ago, there was no FP to supply you with US comics. This was a problem with 1969...

And I'll stop there before it all gets too Not the Nine O'Clock News.

[badbob]

I just re-watched it and there is something I still can’t figure out. In the end when Cassandra says that Sam told her what to do, how is that possible? Sam was in the past and then the future with no time to tell adult Cassandra the 411. The only way I can get it to work is if time is like a repeating loop and we are just seeing the most current time through but living with the effects of previous loops? Do you understand what I mean? Please help to explain this to me.

That's easy. Once SG1 travels from 1969 to an unknown year in the future, and Cassy sends them back to their regular time line, Carter tells Cassy what she needs to do. Kinda of polluting the time line to tell her that, but if she doesn't, then SG1 never returns to their time line.

Bob

[the dancer of spaz]

I love this theory! :p

I mean, I don't believe in it, but it is a bit of a paradox, isn't it?

Theoretically, like someone said earlier, key players like Hammond and Cassandra will continue to do the same thing forever and ever: Cassandra will grow up in this timeline, Sam will tell her about time travel, Cassandra will get old and send the original team back, only for the next Sam in the next timeline to remember to tell Cassandra when she gets old enough, so she can be there when the NEXT SG-1 comes back.

The same thing is for Hammond. The young Hammond whom SG-1 met during "1969" will grow up to remember his youth, so he can know to give Carter the vital info they'll need to get back. It is a cycle - a confusing cycle.

The problem exists when things like what happened in "2010" and "2001" happen. If, for some reason, in this timeline, Sam doesn't tell Cassandra about time travel, she will not be there to send the NEXT SG-1 back in the future. :( SG-1 will "cease to exist" as they'll be stuck in another timeline, and all of the adventures that we've seen them go through NOW will not happen in the future. Also, if things out of our control occur, like deaths, it could alter the other timeline, thus causing an alternate reality.

Although, I suppose, every other timeline could be considered an alternate universe, even if it doesn't contain drastically different choices. Even the minute and small choices will amount to something in the grand scheme of things.

Weird. :confused:

If, in some future timeline, SG-1 doesn't return because of Cassie's absence, Hammond's continuing cycle of actions could cease, because SG-1 won't ever come back. Or, they could just continue in an altered state of reality - another alternate reality.

Like I said, I love this theory.

If you haven't seen it, go see the movie, "The Butterfly Effect." It's a perfect example of the theory, and though it's immensely confusing at times, it all clears up at the end. It's a very good movie. :D

[KingKha]

pay to watch a movie by kutcher?? hell no. and this time travel /alternate time / alternate past future thing is very interesting, yet also confusing. i wish that they would stick with one scheme, instead of using both of them because it is somewhat inconsistent

[Madeleine]

Whereabouts are you? There are quite a few comic shops in Southern England.

[the dancer of spaz]

pay to watch a movie by kutcher?? hell no. and this time travel /alternate time / alternate past future thing is very interesting, yet also confusing. i wish that they would stick with one scheme, instead of using both of them because it is somewhat inconsistent

I thought the exact same thing when I saw Ashton Kutcher as the starring role, and I wasn't expecting much, but he did REALLY well - and I'm not saying that because my expectations were low. He did REALLY well, far exceeding my expectations.

Also, the "time travel/alternate time/alternate part future thing" have to go hand-in-hand because of "The Grandfather Paradox." That wasn't just something the writers made up to have Carter say. That really is a "risk," to speak, when "engaging in time travel."

Alternate universes and all of that jazz can stand alone, but when you add time travel into the mix, that's when they intertwine. Every action has to be carefully calculated when in the "past", for the sake of the theory, or else the future is altered.

However, because the present/future goes on while the traveler is in the past, that reality remains the same, and the future that the traveler now must deal with is the alternate reality. Does that make sense?

[KingKha]

it actually does make a lot of sense to me. ive payed close attention to movies and shows or anything that deals with time travel and alternate realities, their connections and the whole paradox thing. you do seem to have a lot of knowledge of this topic as well.

[SGSlugger]

Time travel is a very complicated thing, and gets rather confusing. It's one of those concepts that the more you think into it, the more abstract and illogical it becomes. Eventually it becomes one giant paradox.
History is suppossed to repeat itself, and there are those who think that your future is preordained.

For an example, take the Back to the Future movies:
If you think that the future doesn't exist yet and is solely created as we live it, then how would Marty be able to get back into his 'future'? Once he goes back to whenever (can't remember the date) he shouldn't be able to get back because the 'future' from the time era resident's view, hasn't happened yet, and is created during each moment.

Parallel universes, alternate timelines, multiuniverses (or mulitverse) all equal up to one giant headache if you think to much into it.

Have I lost anyone yet? :p

[KingKha]

do you believe it is the back to the future way where marty is able to alter his time frame, or do you believe it to be like bill and teds excellent adventures, where they meet themselves, and its a big cycle thing? or like the terminator series, where its a cycle, but they are able to alter it to form a new time line? and you havent lost me yet

[KokiriChild]

All an alternate reality/dimension is is a different timeline. Time is linear and exists between 2 points, as do all the people and events along the way, if someone was to revisit a point and change something, it would affect the rest of the line, all the way down. When thinking of time travel, try not to think of time as constantly flowing, but more as 2 points that connect different points in time, no matter weather this is 2 past events, 2 future events or 2 present events, although once a timeline has been altered it can never be turned back.

You then get onto the issue of changing your appearance throughout time, if you're 20 and you travel back to when you're 4, why does time not reverse and you end up being that 4 year old, but as time's reversed you'd have none of your 20 year old memories? If you believe time doesn't reverse then what you're viewing is not your timeline atall, but a divergence of the one you're currently on, with increadably similar events and you believe that you can "step outside of time" in order to acheive this.

In short you never change your timeline, you visit "someone elses", even if that someone's you in an alternate reality.

Slider's was a good example of this, as was the website www.johntitor.com. I have loads of theories, but most of which are supported by diagrams so I can give private sessions.

Comic book stores down south? Area51 rules, if you're in the Bristol/South Gloucestershire area!

[the dancer of spaz]

All an alternate reality/dimension is is a different timeline.

Well... sort of. In Stargate SG-1, they seem to consider it the same LENGTH of time, but with altered outcomes. An alternate reality and an alternate timeline aren't mutually exclusive, but they do have their differences.

For instance, as long as SG-1 (a) does the same thing as (supposed) SG-1 (b), they will have a different timeline - with the same length - with potentially the same outcome, given there aren't any variables that occur that are out of their control. They are still alternate realities, but would (theoretically?) exist on the same plane of TIME.

HOWEVER, the problem only exists when additional variables are added to the equation. If Jack O'Neill's parents had waited any longer to have him, or had had him earlier in life, he would have joined the military earlier or later, depending; he might've married Sarah earlier or later; he might or MIGHT NOT have had Charlie, etc. He might not have gone on that first mission to Abydos, and the planet would have been obliterated. The same thing can be said about Hammond, Fraiser, and especially Daniel Jackson, Sam Carter, and Teal'c.

Because of these facts, each individual reality becomes "alternate" because of the differences (no matter how small) that may cause massive differences in the future (i.e. Daniel not being around; Sam not being a captain/major in the air force; Teal'c not having a chance to act out again the false gods; Jack's character being completely different). Because of differences like these, that we've seen so far, Earth has been screwed time and time again.

No, I don't think that THIS reality is the "ideal" reality or anything like that, but we certainly seem to have a lot going for us. :)


Also, just for the record, I think that the future is predestined, and that there is only ONE reality - this one. :p The changes we make in this "timeline" are the only changes we make, but that doesn't mean we're trapped. We can choose to choose, or we can choose to not choose. Either way, the reality I live in doesn't provide for a choiceless life of despair. That would suck. ;)

This other theory is just fun to play around with for sci-fi's sake. :D

[Hatusu]

I just couldn't believe the interrogator interviewing O'Neill han't heard of Captain James T. Kirk. The show had been on for awhile by then.

[Mr Prophet]

or like the terminator series, where its a cycle, but they are able to alter it to form a new time line? and you havent lost me yet

Which part of the Terminator series, though?

In Terminator the future is predetermined; all time travel events have already happened and had their effect. By sending the Terminator back, Skynet created John Connor.

In Terminator 2 the future is unwritten; it can be changed.

In Terminator 3 the future can be altered, but some overarching force of destiny is forever driving it back to its predetermined course (the creation of Skynet, Judgement Day).

I just couldn't believe the interrogator interviewing O'Neill han't heard of Captain James T. Kirk. The show had been on for awhile by then.

He's probably not supposed to engage with the prisoner by going along with his story in any way.

[veneticuss]

Well maybe he is

[KokiriChild]

Because of these facts, each individual reality becomes "alternate" because of the differences ... which means that each alternate reality must exist in it's own right, making it on another timeline, so each alternate reality has to have it's own timeline, if 2 realities existed on the same time line then there'd be 2 O'Neill's, 2 Jacksons, 2 Teal'c's etc etc

Edit: Oh, and I know it's only sci-fi and the producers don't have degree's in time-mechanics, but for the purposes of this thread I'm gonna argue the hell outta this! :P

[SeaBee]

I have always thought that programme producers and writers should keep well away from time travel. It is too easy to get into a paradox situation. TPTB managed to avoid it in 1969, but dropped themselves in it with 2010.

It goes like this,

Note gets sent back from future, saying dont go to........., so they don't.
This means that the future is changed to one where note is not required.
Note is therefore not sent back and no warning is given.
No warning means team is sent to danger planet, changing future again.
Note is now required again.
Return to start.

TPTB realised this, and tried to address the problem with 2001 but, IMO, failed.

[Teal'c]

I have always thought that programme producers and writers should keep well away from time travel. It is too easy to get into a paradox situation. TPTB managed to avoid it in 1969, but dropped themselves in it with 2010.

It goes like this,

Note gets sent back from future, saying dont go to........., so they don't.
This means that the future is changed to one where note is not required.
Note is therefore not sent back and no warning is given.
No warning means team is sent to danger planet, changing future again.
Note is now required again.
Return to start.

TPTB realised this, and tried to address the problem with 2001 but, IMO, failed.
Actually, sending the note back created an alternate timeline where they don't go to P4C-970, which is what we're watching, as opposed to the other timeline where the SGC gets shut down, Hammond is murdered and the entire planet is rendered impotent... :P

[KokiriChild]

Actually, sending the note back created an alternate timeline where they don't go to P4C-970, which is what we're watching, as opposed to the other timeline where the SGC gets shut down, Hammond is murdered and the entire planet is rendered impotent... :P
Which is the same as the alternate reality, so are we really watching THE SG1 or not? In my opinion we're on a different time line to the one we started out on.

[SGSlugger]

Which is the same as the alternate reality, so are we really watching THE SG1 or not? In my opinion we're on a different time line to the one we started out on.

Not necessary -- the 2010 ep could have shown an alternate future if we didn't believe the note. Or it could have been one of many possible outcomes based on choices made (ie meeting the Aschen, Daniel not finding the city and translating....)

[KokiriChild]

And he's flip-reversed it! Nice! This whole thing kinda reminds me of STV: Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman aren't of this timeline either, one died and the other... died aswell didn't she? Anyway, I digress, given that nobody can actually prove any theories on timetravel and the effect various degrees of changes would have on possible future/worldlines I think we're gonna have to accept what they write on SG1 is *the* truth

[Liebestraume]

HOWEVER, the problem only exists when additional variables are added to the equation. If Jack O'Neill's parents had waited any longer to have him, or had had him earlier in life, he would have joined the military earlier or later, depending; he might've married Sarah earlier or later; he might or MIGHT NOT have had Charlie, etc. He might not have gone on that first mission to Abydos, and the planet would have been obliterated. The same thing can be said about Hammond, Fraiser, and especially Daniel Jackson, Sam Carter, and Teal'c.
Along this line of reasoning, one could argue that the universe is akin to a state function described by an infinite set of (possibly causal) variables. Every reality is then a possible arrangement of the variables, with the most likely outcome (i.e., the peak value of the function) being the reality of SG-1.

So, time-travel to the past would be like changing a variable in the function. It changes the most-likely outcome from one to another. This would make 1969, 2010 and 2001 possible. However, it would not explain how people from different reality could meet. :S

[the dancer of spaz]

Actually, sending the note back created an alternate timeline where they don't go to P4C-970, which is what we're watching, as opposed to the other timeline where the SGC gets shut down, Hammond is murdered and the entire planet is rendered impotent... :P


Exactly.

Like someone said earlier, it IS a different timeline for alternate realities, even though it's the same TIME. Space is a totally different thing. Although that other theory that someone else said about the timeline going over and over again, I believe it's possible for the vicious cycle to end.

The difference between 1969 and 2010/2001 is the act of change.

In 1969, the act was caused when Hammond sent SG-1 back into the past. That cycle, I suppose, will continue on.

In 2001, no one was sent into the past.


Does that make any sense? I don't know if I'm making myself very clear. It's 12:30 at night, so... :rolleyes:

[KokiriChild]

Along this line of reasoning, one could argue that the universe is akin to a state function described by an infinite set of (possibly causal) variables. Every reality is then a possible arrangement of the variables, with the most likely outcome (i.e., the peak value of the function) being the reality of SG-1.

So, time-travel to the past would be like changing a variable in the function. It changes the most-likely outcome from one to another. This would make 1969, 2010 and 2001 possible. However, it would not explain how people from different reality could meet. :S
Because the only way you could revisit your timeline is to have time reverse, when you do any other changes with time/alternate realities you're not changing your time line, you're chaning theres. The main difference between them is that timetravel involves going to a point in either the past or the future on someone else's timeline whereas crossing into an alternate reality is visiting the present on someone else's timeline

[Liebestraume]

Because the only way you could revisit your timeline is to have time reverse, when you do any other changes with time/alternate realities you're not changing your time line, you're chaning theres. The main difference between them is that timetravel involves going to a point in either the past or the future on someone else's timeline whereas crossing into an alternate reality is visiting the present on someone else's timeline
True, and this is consistent with your earlier notion that space-time is wholly representable in a tree-like fashion. The only reservation I have about this representation is that it seems to presume a deterministic space-time -- somehow I've always envisioned it to be somewhat stochastic. :D

[KokiriChild]

Yeah, it's kinda a bugger knowing that, but in my eyes it's the only way it could possibly work.

[Andy867]

This is called the pretzel effect. Kind of like in the movie "Kate and Leopold." Basically, the way it works is that future events effect past event that affect future events. So that all tie together.

[KokiriChild]

I like Pretzals :)

[the dancer of spaz]

I like Pretzals :)

ditto.

and I am sufficiently confused now. :D

thank you, all! :)

[David85]

And if the show was never mad we might or might not be having this talk, the world might or might not be a better place. It's a freaking show people! It was a funny episode but that's it, it's only a TV show!!!

[the dancer of spaz]

And if the show was never mad we might or might not be having this talk, the world might or might not be a better place. It's a freaking show people! It was a funny episode but that's it, it's only a TV show!!!

Dude, this is ALL about the TV show. :( Every topic on this forum can be countered with "it's only a TV show!!!" :eek:

We're merely having a discussion here. Go figure. It's a forum. :o

:rolleyes: Yeah, I enjoyed the ep, thought it was funny and different, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about the theories that were expressed in it.

[KokiriChild]

I still like Pretzals :)

[Uncle Dick]

Following the time concepts elucidated by this gentleman (http://www.mjyoung.net/time/timeprim.html), SG-1 would be required to find their way back from the future without the assistance of Cassandra, at least once. Assuming that the technology to detect solar flares exists in whatever distant year SG-1 travels to, which it must if Cassandra knows when one is about to occur, SG-1 should be able to accomplish this without too much delay and, with the help of Carter, cognizant of the necessity not to carry back too much future knowledge.

When they return to Earth in the year 1998, they can then inform Cassandra that she needs to meet them sometime in the future in order to streamline the process and limit as much damage to the timestream as possible. On the next loop around, SG-1 can finally meet Cassandra and carry out the events as depicted in the episode.

[Phenicia]

I think one of the things that is getting messed up here is the idea of alternate realities and time travel.

You can travel back in time and change your own time stream. The time stream of what you would have existed in then becomes an alternate reality with more of a connectivity to the same reality that you are in.

In the stargate universe there is a reason that you cannot travle to another alternate reality through the stargate. It has been deemed impossible and the quantum mirror is the only way to actually jump into the second reality.

If indeed one would 'change' this history of one's time line, the time line will be rewritten over. 2010, the note is sent, but in our reality it will never happen that we made the alliance with the Aschen. Will there be an alternate reality that would have that SG-1 did not succede and it still exists. Yes, but have we changed realities, no, we changed our own time line. Its not inacting a shift to a different reality, it is rewritting the time line.

In Roswell, they did a thing on this where Max went back in time to keep the 4 of them together, and after the act that would change things happened. He no longer existed because what had made him into what he was did not happen.

For example: If someone from the future were to go back in the past to when Martof died. And marked him as a zartk before the conference there by saving his life. We are also going to suppose that a second To'kra managed to save him from being killed by a go'auld, and if it had been Martof he would not have had known to save this person and they died. When they go back and safe Martof, they will infact end their existance because they would have not lived to go back and save Martof. Martof will always exist now because he was able to be marked and protected. Which then negates the time that the other lived through, and if they had not lived then they would not have been alive to go back in time and stop Martof and would fade out of existance.

I hope that this helps some. I might be going of the philosophical deep end here. :)

[Stephen Hanmer]

Im a UK stargate fan and there is a whole LOAD of us at www.sgc-network.com

Im Senior Airman Stephen Hanmer.

If you want more info, PM me or e-mail me - stargatehanmer@hotmail.com


'_'

[Phenicia]

A bit of clairfication for people.

Imagine Time as a VCR tape. SG-1 recorded over the VCR tape the time that they actually went to the Aschen homeworld. And all of the actions that led up to 2010. When they sent the note back in time, it was like rewinding the tape to the point right before the note arrives. From then the VCR tape is being rerecorded with the advent of the note happening.

It is a bit of a parodox, of how the note exists when the actions of writting the note will litterly never happen now. There will be in theory when the actions of the note being written are rerecorded over the note will cese to exits.

This is all happening in our own time line, what was rerecored over, becomes an alternate reality, by the simple appearance of the note will make a difference in the choice, any difference of choice will create as many alternate realities as there are choices to take.

I hope that clears things up a little bit.