Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread

[sg-1fanintn]

Welcome, Myrth!

My husband has had the computer for the last couple of hours. Something about work.....deadlines......blah, blah, blah! Now that I have it back, and have read your series of posts, I have to go in the Uber column. I'm glad all these things happened (except for Jack leaving), and I'm still hopeful for S9.

Don't get yourselves upset about what TPTB have told you. Remember, they're not going to give away all their surprises before July. There's still the January premiere to consider.

And don't be so literal about who is going to be where and when. It's not what they've told you.....it's what they haven't told you. I work in the media, and I guarantee you that all media announcements are carefully timed. The job of TPTB is to dole out spoilers (or surprises) as they serve their purpose, and that means doling things out at intervals to keep us interested. Frankly, they're doing a great job at that!

[Uber]

I agree with what was said there Sally. I do believe that TPTB were not prepared to write a proper relationship between Jack and Sam. I also agree that by adding Pete and Kerry to the mixture made it look to some as though there was an advancement in the relationship between Jack and Sam when to me clearly there was none. How much closer are they then say back in D&C at least there Jack openly admits he has feelingd for Carter and now how many years later he tells her he will always be there for her. Where exactly is "always there" especially now that he will be in

Spoiler:

Washington in Season 9

. I didn't buy Sam questioning her feelings for Jack back then and I still don't now that she has seen the light; I only feel that this is where the injustice of Sams character started.

I believe that she wrongly concluded in Grace that she needed to move on with another man. That man turned out to be Pete. But if it hadn't have been Pete, it would have been some other guy...because she was finally open to the idea of an intimate relationship with someone.

Then, with the Pete frame of reference, she was able to fully analyze her scenario and realized that happiness didn't lie in having a life with just anyone. The contrast of Pete to Jack helped her fully recognize that her feelings for Pete paled in comparison to what she felt for Jack.

Thankfully she came to the understanding that her Grace conclusions (that she only had romantic thoughts for him so she wouldn't open herself up to be hurt) were completely wrong.

[Uber]

while i agree with *everything* you've just said, i can't stop thinking about the ONE EP that changed all the rules and expectations for shippers. Chimera. so while everything you said makes sense, and i 'do' appreciate what the ptb have done, i still feel this melancholy about what-should-have-been. before chimera, i never expected to see romance like that shown on this show. after chimera, i wanted that for sam and jack too. so while i think pete was a very poorly thought out character for sam to grow with, i think the biggest damage that storyline did was make shippers want the exact same romance scenes shown for our ship couple too. that's always going to be a sticking point for me, and i wonder if it's going to be for the majority of the fans that enjoyed sam and jack too.


sally

Ah, yes. Pete...someone not in her chain of command so she could do whatever she wanted to with him. He was "in-bounds." The good news is that Chimera gave us a glimpse of the romantic/passionate side of Samantha Carter, something we have never gotten to see up to that point. Also, it meant that Sam was finally ready for a real relationship.

Obviously as a Sam/Jack shipper, it was tough to watch because of course I want that for Sam and Jack eventually. And now with Jack and Sam's situations changing so radically next season, I think they'll get to that point.

Of course they'll have the additional complication of knowing and caring about each other as really good friends. They're both cautious people when it comes to their personal feelings...and, just my feeling here folks...although they felt "free" to pursue their respective relationships with Pete/Kerry, it will be different for Sam and Jack with each other because of their pre-existing relationship and also because their feelings for each other are genuine (which was not true with P and K). So it's just possible that they might choose to take things slow and easy at first, to make sure that they aren't making a mistake with each other and to ensure not to hurt their existing relationship.

I of course hope that is not ENTIRELY the case. I do want them to ease comfortably into a full on romantic relationship...BUT I want at least ONE really good kiss next season with the promise of significantly more to come...like surprise visits to CO for Jack and DC for Sam...maybe a dinner out and a nice comfortable time together at home...

[majorsal]

But Uber is right: we have arrived at the point where they must almost certainly "fish or cut bait" (a lovely southern expression). I still think RDA's departure makes it easier to acknowledge, because they can deal with it, acknowledge it and get on with the new stories they plan. And I also believe that RDA will be back for the season 9 (series?) finale, and that direct-to-DVD movies (1-2 per year) will follow right after that. All four original stars have said they'd be in for movies.

Yes, all the pieces are in place. Now, girls and boys, just join hands, close your eyes, and make a wish.....that our happy ending is just over the rainbow! And remember too.....the "Ed" wedding was the last episode of the series!

between you and Uber, i'm feeling better. (thanks!)


sally

[nickatell]

I think that if TPTB had intended on writing a relationship between Jack and Sam, then one of them probably Sam would not have been in the AF. The fact that the chemistry between RDA and AT exploded on the screen somewhat forced TPTB into starting a relationship between them; but by then their positions were already established and so began the regs obstacle.

I also disagree with what someone wrote earlier, I'm sorry I don't remember who wrote it, I don't believe that TPTB did take every advantage to give us a relationship between Jack and Sam. There were so many out-takes where there was a kiss intended or a relationship established and they decided to take it out for one reason or another. Now, I'm not talking where AT and RDA decided not to speak; but all of the other times. Had they given us all the time they could between Jack and Sam without taking away from the stories, I don't think that the shippers would have felt as desperate as we were or are. Or maybe we would have at least felt like TPTB were trying to give us something.

[Uber]

IMO TPTB made Sam and Jack look helpless.Even with the Regs we should have gotten a Sam and Jack Adult conversation.

Spoiler:

Even when Jack found out about Pete TPTB decided to make the Scene Funny instead of having Sam and Jack have a serious Adult conversation.TPTB could have made the Sam character look great by having Sam tell Jack her reasons for Dating Pete.I love Humor but there's a Time and a place for Humor and the elvator scene was not the Time and place for Humor.

I thought the elevator scene was entirely appropriate; funny even. It showed that even with Sam trying to move on, the tension between them was still growing to a fevered pitch...and humor is Jack's way of avoiding uncomfortable topics.

Plus it would have been completely inappropriate for him to discuss his personal feelings for her as she was under his command. And as much as I want them together, I knew that they'd never have "the talk" until after their situations were radically different (ie, he's no longer in her chain of command).

[majorsal]

I also disagree with others who think that, after Grace, she could have come to the understanding that she loved Jack for real without attempting a relationship with some other guy because the conclusions she made dictated that she try to find happiness with another man.

Then when she developed a rapport with Pete and found she was attracted to him, she thought that meant that this was in fact that life she had been avoiding. But then the reality struck her (house, dog, 'til death do us part with Pete) and she had a basis for comparison now between "a life" with Pete and her feelings for Jack...and that's how she fully came to realize her feelings for Jack were genuine.

Without that basis for comparison, I just don't see how she could have reached the conclusion she did in Threads that marrying Pete would be a huge honkin' mistake...because she really loved Jack.

while i'm agreeing with so much of what you've said, i feel sam already came to that epiphany in season 7 with Heroes 2 and Lost City(s). i felt she already figured out that she 'was', in fact, in love with jack, that it wasn't just some kind of misguided crush. so going from the powerful drama of Lost City to the ho-hum and i'm-still-with-my-boyfriend in New Order made absolutely no sense. i felt the only reason pete was still in the picture in New Order was to distance sam from the whiny/piney stuff (that i did NOT see) and to lengthen the 'will they/won't they' stuff. i could be wrong, but a bitter fan will see things like this.


sally

[nickatell]

Uber, just to be clear, what you are saying is that Season eight basically saw the personal growth of Sam Carter's feelings for a "normal" life and her realization that her love for Jack is more important than a "normal" life, right?????? This much I agree with you on; but was this realization important enought to use up valuable time and episodes when one half of the relationship would not be returning as a regular in the next season???? To me these points, if they were that important would have been addressed in season 3 bringing us to the proper resolution in Season 8. I think the timing for these "realizations" is what is off in this relationship. Really when you think about it we could have all of season 9 dealing with Jack feeling not worthy of Sams affections as another evasive tactic by TPTB. Granted all of these things could and do happen in real life; but folks as we all know this is a tv show we have to speed "real life" up, our boy is leaving or has left the building.

[majorsal]

you make a very good point-but i think that the fault lies with the writers and the boys in vancouver not with the inability of AT, CJ or MS to carry the show-i do think that they didn't make effective use of RDA-especially since he was pretty much in every episode in season 8. I also believe that his Jack was a bitter, angry and lonely man. I don't know how much of that was true to the way he wished to protray Jack or the way it ended up-and i think that we where short-sheeted as far as their relationship goes. It sitll don't know what caused Sam to approach Jack-because we had no indication she was unhappy with Pete-I was unhappy with Pete and happy enough to see it end-but i would have liked a more definitive resolution-and my big fear for season 9 is

Spoiler:

they will totally ignore it and act like it never happened

here's an exerpt from a new interview thinger from rob cooper and brad wright from the creation/vancouver con.

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2005/0...sg-1isav.shtml


"We saw 'Reckoning' one and two and 'Threads' and 'Moebius' as the end of a chapter of the series," Cooper explained. "And now Season Nine is going to begin a new chapter. And we're very excited about it. There's a renewed energy among the returning cast, and a whole new energy that the new cast is bringing. And everyone involved with the show, I think, is the happiest we've ever been."

my response: if they drop sam/jack, they've dropped me as a viewer.


sally

[Uber]

while i'm agreeing with so much of what you've said, i feel sam already came to that epiphany in season 7 with Heroes 2 and Lost City(s). i felt she already figured out that she 'was', in fact, in love with jack, that it wasn't just some kind of misguided crush. so going from the powerful drama of Lost City to the ho-hum and i'm-still-with-my-boyfriend in New Order made absolutely no sense. i felt the only reason pete was still in the picture in New Order was to distance sam from the whiny/piney stuff (that i did NOT see) and to lengthen the 'will they/won't they' stuff. i could be wrong, but a bitter fan will see things like this.


sally

I agree she already started to see the light as of Heroes 2 and Lost City. But what was she supposed to do with those feelings? She still couldn't have Jack...

With New Order, she had had a few months without Jack and was futily trying to build something with Pete (a topic of conversation she was clearly uncomfortable with). In Affinity, she continued to try to build her house of cards with Pete as she struggled with her Jack issues...and made a poor move in accepting his proposal (all in the attempt to have a life with someone).

Even through the first part of Threads, she was still trying to talk herself into it. She deserved a life, doggone it, and Pete was going to be that guy. Jacob of course saw right through the bravado. Her "I am going to marry him, Dad" declaration sounded like she was trying to convince herself more than she was trying to convince him.

But Sam's REAL "cold splash of water" moment came when Pete sprung for a house without telling her. I think that's the exact moment that all the doubts and second-guessing she had been doing since, well practically the beginning, really came to fruition..."I CANNOT MARRY THIS MAN" screamed inside of her head.

So it was up to her. Jack couldn't broach the topic due to the overly-mentioned-by-me-this-evening commanding officer issue; plus, even if he was "allowed" to talk about it, I got the sense that he was trying to be supportive on some level of her happiness. So Sam finally took that step and was willing to put it all on the line; to hash out her feelings with Jack and see where he stood. She was there to tell him about her misgivings about Pete and why she had them; and I think, because of that watershed decision, that willingness to tell him the truth and find out if he shared her feelings, Sam was ready to make some major career decisions based on the outcome of that conversation.

[nickatell]

I agree with you Sally, if TPTB were going to jump this deeply into Sam's emotions by introducing a boyfriend, then having the relationship develop into a marriage proposal all unfolding before our very eyes;then how can they justify using just the fishing invitation as a suggestion that her relationship with Jack is back on track. I mean IMO the passion, emotion and energy it took to introduce the new boyfriend should have also been given to the conclusion or realization that her love for Jack is truly what is real and important. I understand in doing so a decision would have had to have been made in order to advance the relationship and keep in line with the AF regs, which is what we didn't get for the conslusion of Season 8 which IMO is where is should have been.

[majorsal]

Another thing that makes me mad is that after hearing about the regs for the last eight years

Spoiler:

in Season 9 they will have Jack leaving for Home World Security in Washington and Sam not even there until episode 5 or 6. I mean this has been a major blockade for the relationship and we don't even get to see them together when this occurs. I mean hello major development!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to say this is a big part of what angered me about the conclusion of season 8; knowing RDA was not going to be around may be at all for Season 9 and still having AT wouldn't this have been the time to get rid of the regs and bring them together so we could have all enjoyed seeing this.?? I do agree that if RDA still planned on being in Season 9 as a regular than TPTB still had room to advance the relationship and give us shippers what we are stillllllllllll hoping for, but????????????? Honestly I feel that TPTB are counting on the fans from Farscape, and are leaving the door open a minuscule for the shippers to still have hope for something more to happen between Jack and Sam to keep Season 9 alive. I also feel that if I were MS, CJ or AT I would have been a little hurt that even TPTB don't feel that they could have carried the show off without Jack because they had to find another lead main character with his own fanfair to keep another season going. To me Season 9 just seems so wrong on so many levels.

yep.


sally

[nickatell]

Which is another fear of mine, I kind of think that TPTB feel that they have brought closure to this relationship and don't plan on developing it any further. Although reading it with my "super shipper glasses" it could also mean that with the conclusion of last season it ended the chapter where Sam and Jack have obstacles in their way and the New Season brings new life to their relationship. I can' t believe I just said that... Okay somebody wake me from this shipper dream I am having, the hope inside of me for Jack and Sam will not die.

[majorsal]

(snipped)


As a shipper, I'm delighted that these things took place...because I don't believe that TPTB would produce anything along those lines if they didn't have any intention to continue the J/S ship theme on some level next season.

i try *sooooo* hard to think this way, uber, but all these years in fandom, hearing the opinions of the ppl making the show... i just don't trust them. the next logical step is sam and jack IN a relationship, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. when info first started coming out for season 9, we were getting nice vibes. rob cooper said sam would be away from the sgc for 'personal and professional' reason. joe mallozzi took it back to only 'professional'. we wanted jack to make an appearance, and then we found out we 'was' going to be in some eps - two of the five eps sam's missing from. add into that that there are NO shippy spoilers coming out, even though joe malliozzi told us we could ask ship-minded questions after season 8 was done... it's getting harder and harder to stay optimistic. i'm trying, and mostly holding on with my love of the sam carter character, but the shipper in me is so punch-drunk that... but i'm trying, uber.


sally

[Uber]

Uber, just to be clear, what you are saying is that Season eight basically saw the personal growth of Sam Carter's feelings for a "normal" life and her realization that her love for Jack is more important than a "normal" life, right?????? This much I agree with you on; but was this realization important enought to use up valuable time and episodes when one half of the relationship would not be returning as a regular in the next season???? To me these points, if they were that important would have been addressed in season 3 bringing us to the proper resolution in Season 8. I think the timing for these "realizations" is what is off in this relationship. Really when you think about it we could have all of season 9 dealing with Jack feeling not worthy of Sams affections as another evasive tactic by TPTB. Granted all of these things could and do happen in real life; but folks as we all know this is a tv show we have to speed "real life" up, our boy is leaving or has left the building.

Season 3 gave us glimpses that they were feeling things beyond what they were supposed to feel, given their work scenario. But was that enough for them to ditch their careers and pursue a romance? And would we as fans been happy if SG-1 disbanded so early on in the series for them to have a love story? And what would they have done to that active love story over the last several years? There would have had to have been conflict to keep the romance interesting. Would they have gotten married, separated and then back together? Plus there's the added problem of turning Stargate SG-1 into "As the Gate Turns."

And as to the lateness of these revelations, I think they needed the time and so did we. As I said before, Season 3 or 4 would have been too early in their "relationship" for them to do something drastic. Plus, I as a fan felt and enjoyed the angst of watching them have feelings they weren't free to express. It builds tension and makes the actual "getting together" all the more sweet. If they had done that too early, I don't think the pay off would be as good. But, as AT put it, enough is enough. Either get on with it or move on already! And that's the point we're at now, which I think is perfect timing because the attraction and tension between them is at that deliciously fevered pitch.

And about Season 9, as I recall, they didn't know there'd even be a 9th season for quite awhile. So I believe that Season 8 is a crescendo in the Sam/Jack saga that really built up steam in Season 4 and then the bulk of the issue was set aside for a couple seasons. Then I was scared they were going to ditch the issue entirely. But with Paradise Lost came the fact that there was still something there beneath the surface as it were and it continued to build without the supervision of TPTB.

But that's the thing with feelings and chemistry...if it's real, it exists whether it's planned or written. It would have been dishonest to the characters to completely ignore it forever, but they could have done it permanently with Sam marrying Pete and Jack building something with Kerry.

So with 8, we have massive character growth in both Sam and Jack...and hope for more in Season 9.

Now as upset as I am that it's not Jack, Teal'c, Sam and Daniel on SG-1 anymore, the fact is that things change. It is a sad reality of life. Even still, things are progressing both professionally and personally for these two dynamic characters. Plus, living that kind of "on the front line" life just can't be maintained forever.

I still think/hope we may see more of RDA than we know or can be told...that's just a gut feeling here...so I think that, unless TPTB truly HATE shippers, and plan to completely disregard the massive story arc of Sam and Jack that they themselves chose to explore in great detail this past season, we will have some acknowledgement on some level of something between Sam and Jack.