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    Okay, I know this probably kind of jars the discussion but I had to post it bc it was so relevant to our Sam and Jack problem. For years we've been complaining about why they couldn't get them together bc we don't think that getting them together will ruin anything! So without further ado, this comes from http://www.catch-sink.net/mainstreet.htm a fan-site dedicated to the show "Ed" which aired on NBC for a few seasons. This excerpt is an interview with some of the writers from that show...

    The will-they-or-won't-they plot line of the series lasted nearly every minute of three seasons. Obstacles and romance came in on both sides, and characters were added and subtracted. But in the end, a decision was made that this all must come to an end.

    Why and when? Apparently, NBC was very concerned about "the Moonlighting effect," mentions Etten, referring to the mid-1980's television show where the two main characters circled around each other for several seasons before finally deciding to give romance a try. Critics were merciless in their opinion of the show following that point.

    The writers had a much different view. "I don't buy into that view at all," said Dingess "It's really a slap in the face of the viewers."

    "Very cynical," added Etten.

    However, the obstacles continued for a good while.

    "I think Rob and Jon were a bit sick of, 'OK, who's the latest love interest?'" he continued.

    The writers seem refreshed and enthused by the new direction of the show.

    "The characters have to be allowed to grow and change. The reality of a new relationship rather than the fantasy - it's fun to think of different ideas," says Dingess.

    "We have such a great cast with so many stories they can tell," adds Etten.
    See, TPTB? They can be together without being unhappy and ruining the show--so there!

    edited to add that I got this link from an article in an Alias fansite talking about how much a lot of fans hate love triangles. So we aren't the only ones who hated the triangle (and later square).
    Last edited by marimba26; 26 April 2005, 02:02 PM.
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      Originally posted by marimba26
      Okay, I know this probably kind of jars the discussion but I had to post it bc it was so relevant to our Sam and Jack problem. For years we've been complaining about why they couldn't get them together bc we don't think that getting them together will ruin anything! So without further ado, this comes from http://www.catch-sink.net/mainstreet.htm a fan-site dedicated to the show "Ed" which aired on NBC for a few seasons. This excerpt is an interview with some of the writers from that show...

      See, TPTB? They can be together without being unhappy and ruining the show--so there!
      There are lots of examples on both sides of the ship argument of where ship was done well and done poorly.

      As maddening as it has been, FOR THE MOST PART I think it's been done fairly well...I mean TPTB understood that they couldn't jump full force into a relationship because of the very strict AF regs and the fact that the AF forbade anything that hinted of being inappropriate.

      But the chemistry existed...so TPTB gave us tastes here and there, a smile, a look, a vibe (actually they can't give us a vibe...that comes from the natural chemistry generated by RDA and AT). They gave us alternate universes and time loops and memory loss...anywhere they could possibly give us some sort of acknowledgement of the mutual attraction/connection between Sam and Jack.

      But season 8 is the deciding point here. Really, it's fish or cut bait...because there's only so long they can maintain the fevered level of attraction before driving everyone...including the actors...completely nuts. Fortunately for us, they chose not only to fully acknowledge and address the issue a la Threads, they decided that we were right.

      So now shippers can have real hope because we got something from TPTB that we've been dreaming of for so long plus the added bonus that their situations will be so different now and the AF regs won't be an issue anymore.

      ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

      Comment


        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
        Don't get me wrong with what I'm about to say...

        GRACE and THREADS SPOILERS



        But I think it was important for her to have her Pete moment. She needed to move on with someone. She needed to have a life that was more fulfilling. And here she was ready to marry this guy just so she could have a life...and she just couldn't go through with it.

        Her experience with Pete helped clarify her feelings for Jack. And if it hadn't been Pete, it would have been some other guy because the determination from Grace was that she deserved to love and be loved in return.

        So Sam was finally ready to take a chance with love with someone who was in her mind accessible. That first emotional barrier was finally broken down...she was open to the idea of an honest-to-goodness, intimate romantic relationship. I personally think that this was why she was closed down to Orlin and Narim, etc. because, as "Jacob" put it, she protected herself from that kind of relationship because she deep down felt it would inevitably end in loneliness.

        But Sam realized two very important things in Threads. First, that just being open to the idea of having a truly intimate relationship was not enough; that it couldn't just be with A man. It had to be with someone she really loved, and not just cared for. And as the date loomed closer, she became more ambivalent because it became more real to her...actually living there in that house that he got without telling her day in and day out with their dog. And that freaked her to the point where she came to a watershed moment and realized that marrying Pete would have been a huge, honkin' mistake because of the second realization...

        She really loved Jack. Her feelings for him were not based on the "I want him because I can't have him" concept she had thought it was. Unlike her relationship with Pete which I felt was based solely on her desire to try to move on with somebody...ANYBODY...and he was a cute guy that she had some chemistry and rapport with, her feelings for Jack were genuine and were based on their longstanding friendship/relationship that had developed over the last several years. He was the one that she really wanted to be with. She was finally able to face this fact and was about to tell him this very thing...when Kerry interrupted.

        So I'm thankful for her Pete experience because she was able to compare what she felt for him with what she felt for Jack and it led her to understand that her feelings for Jack were real.
        Yes, yes, yes, Uber! This is exactly what I have thought/felt all along. But you have voiced it so well. Are you sure you don't have a psychology degree, in addition to your talents as a webmaster/graphic designer?

        Now, I'm going out on a limb here.....but what I hope is that TPTB realize this too, and have led us through the last two painful seasons in order to justify the S/J ship to everyone. In other words, Sam and Jack were simply meant to be.....and cannot be denied by the characters, TPTB or fans.

        Comment


          Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
          There are lots of examples on both sides of the ship argument of where ship was done well and done poorly.

          As maddening as it has been, FOR THE MOST PART I think it's been done fairly well...I mean TPTB understood that they couldn't jump full force into a relationship because of the very strict AF regs and the fact that the AF forbade anything that hinted of being inappropriate.

          But the chemistry existed...so TPTB gave us tastes here and there, a smile, a look, a vibe (actually they can't give us a vibe...that comes from the natural chemistry generated by RDA and AT). They gave us alternate universes and time loops and memory loss...anywhere they could possibly give us some sort of acknowledgement of the mutual attraction/connection between Sam and Jack.

          But season 8 is the deciding point here. Really, it's fish or cut bait...because there's only so long they can maintain the fevered level of attraction before driving everyone...including the actors...completely nuts. Fortunately for us, they chose not only to fully acknowledge and address the issue a la Threads, they decided that we were right.

          So now shippers can have real hope because we got something from TPTB that we've been dreaming of for so long plus the added bonus that their situations will be so different now and the AF regs won't be an issue anymore.
          I hope so for everyone's sake (((Uber))) but why if they do something a la
          Spoiler:
          lost city part 2 followed by New order 1 when the ship was mostly ignored again ?!! Aren't you worried about that cuz me think this is where they are heading Why ?!! because Joe Malozzi changed his mind about Sam in the season 9 premiere ..she was supposed to be away for Personnal and professional reasons ...and now it's only for professional reasons .
          Doesn't look to good

          Caty

          Comment


            Originally posted by sg-1fanintn
            Yes, yes, yes, Uber! This is exactly what I have thought/felt all along. But you have voiced it so well. Are you sure you don't have a psychology degree, in addition to your talents as a webmaster/graphic designer?

            Now, I'm going out on a limb here.....but what I hope is that TPTB realize this too, and have led us through the last two painful seasons in order to justify the S/J ship to everyone. In other words, Sam and Jack were simply meant to be.....and cannot be denied by the characters, TPTB or fans.
            My sense is that ... and I'll answer Caty here too ... if they completely drop the topic, it would be untrue to the huge S/J story arc, beginning with Divide and Conquer (which they fully acknowledged in the beginning of Threads).

            Additionally, it would be untrue to the character development and the things I posted before about Grace and Threads. Sam came to conclusions in Grace, played them out, realized some of them were wrong and corrected them in Threads. To not continue something in Season 9 or heaven forbid pair her with some other guy would be completely out of character for Sam.

            That being said, of course I'm a little scared that TPTB will do something stupid and drop everything...just move on with the new guys and let us all down. But I personally believe that it would be a suicidal move because of how un-Samlike it would be for her to not even think or mention Jack. I mean, if they wanted to abandon the Sam/Jack issue entirely, they could have either avoided it like the plague or they could have made Sam really love and marry Pete...and Jack could have stayed with Kerry. But that didn't happen...they both came to their senses.

            So, IMHO, if their intention was to completely ignore J/S shipping, then Threads would have been the time to set in stone that they didn't love each other and were really moving on. But since that didn't happen and Sam and Jack are starting to openly acknowledge their feelings beyond just "okay there's something there beyond what I'm supposed to feel," then there had better be something referencing this major development in Season 9. Otherwise, Threads would make no sense.

            ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

            Comment


              The "Ed" excerpt posted above by marimba probably also shows exactly what the SG-1 PTB have been going through in deciding how to progress with the S/J ship! You have to make sure you don't shoot yourself in the proverbial foot when you put two characters together definitively......because it can go south on you. Actually, I think the "Moonlighting" thing spun out of control because Cybil Sheppard and Bruce Willis weren't getting along, and Willis was anxious to get on to the big screen. It was just handled very poorly....the worst I've ever seen on TV.

              But Uber is right: we have arrived at the point where they must almost certainly "fish or cut bait" (a lovely southern expression). I still think RDA's departure makes it easier to acknowledge, because they can deal with it, acknowledge it and get on with the new stories they plan. And I also believe that RDA will be back for the season 9 (series?) finale, and that direct-to-DVD movies (1-2 per year) will follow right after that. All four original stars have said they'd be in for movies.

              Yes, all the pieces are in place. Now, girls and boys, just join hands, close your eyes, and make a wish.....that our happy ending is just over the rainbow! And remember too.....the "Ed" wedding was the last episode of the series!

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                Martin Gero is online again.....right now!

                Comment


                  Y'all made some excellent points. I think that we can't put all our hopes in the first ep of season 9 a la New Order. In Avalon, they have to introduce a new SG-1 team member, a new base commander, the entire concept of the Orii, explain where Sam's been and why...and that alone is a lot for one or even 2 hours of TV. It was the same thing with New Order. They had to figure out how to bring Jack back, the whole Sam/Fifth thing, get the foundation for a new series down...you get the picture. (Although I REALLY wanted a scene with Jack checking on Sam after her ordeal with Fifth).

                  Part of taking the show in a new direction means that there's still hope for ship (I think). I by no means am saying that I've always been pleased with TPTB, but they've always been able to hide behind the regs til now. Maybe now that those are gone there will be a shot.

                  p.s. TOTALLY agree with the points about Pete, but apparently I've given you rep too recently.
                  And it came to pass that in time the Great God Om spake unto Brutha, the Chosen One: "Psst!"

                  Jack: You're so shallow.
                  Daniel: Oh please. Teal'c is like one of the deepest people I know. He's so deep. Tell him how deep you are. You'll be lucky if you understand this.
                  Teal'c: My depth is immaterial to this conversation.
                  Daniel: Oh! You see?
                  Jack: (to Daniel) No more beer for you.

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                    sg-1 fanintn I hope your right about all the Actors wanting to do the Movies.I'am not sure about RDA.IMO we should have had Scifi Movies or Direct to DVD Movies instead of Season 9.Looking back we should have had Movies after Season 7.Season 8 for the most part was not worth it IMO.I beleive RDA would have be open to Movies after Season 7.I hope he is still interested.

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                      Caty it would not surprise me at all if Jack never mentions Sam during the Season premiere.We all know how great TPTB are at following up the Ship from one Season to the next.IMO it makes no sense that
                      Spoiler:
                      Sam would need to be away from Jack to start Season 9.I know Sam just lost Jacob and broke up with Pete but I cannot see Sam wanting to be away from Jack.Sam had better be working on something vital to Earth's survival if she is not with Jack to start the Season.Sam and Jack have been waiting for 8 Years and at this point I doubt they would want to wait 8 Seconds to be together.After finally going Fishing together Sam and Jack should have at least gone on 1 Date or agreed to Date.TPTB are bringing back all of Sam's Man Friend and if Sam is still not with Jack the Sam character will look horrible IMO.It will look like Sam is ready to commit to Jack.

                      Comment


                        nickatell and Mary as usual were on the same page.I also remember TPTB saying no RDA no new season.That was the best thing I ever heard from TPTB and now that's out the Window.I think it is very wrong to have an SG-1 show without RDA and the Jack character.TPTB should have SG-1 go into Movies like other Scifi Shows have instead of trying for more Seasons.It could have been a new challenge to TPTB and the Actors instead of the same Show minus RDA.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by ses110
                          nickatell and Mary as usual were on the same page.I also remember TPTB saying no RDA no new season.That was the best thing I ever heard from TPTB and now that's out the Window.I think it is very wrong to have an SG-1 show without RDA and the Jack character.TPTB should have SG-1 go into Movies like other Scifi Shows have instead of trying for more Seasons.It could have been a new challenge to TPTB and the Actors instead of the same Show minus RDA.
                          I'm not sure about this one...as much of an RDA fan that I am, because of his reduced time on air, I've come around to picking Carter as my favorite character and think she can carry a lot of the show on her own (which btw is why I'm sticking around). She's a phenominal actress and Carter is such a great character...

                          Now if she were to leave and it were just Daniel and Teal'c, I probably would have to regretfully pull up stakes and leave at that point...but Sam's sticking around and we get to enjoy more of SG-1's adventures on a weekly basis.

                          Plus with Sam still there, we have the potential of continuing the S/J arc which I believe will go on (as I stated above) and AT believes this as well...

                          ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan

                            snip

                            She really loved Jack. Her feelings for him were not based on the "I want him because I can't have him" concept she had thought it was.
                            See, the "I want him because I can't have him" concept is the problem that I have with Grace (one of them anyway). I've never seen any indication before then that she felt that way. IMO, that was something new that they just stuck in there in order to make way for Pete. I think Sam's feelings about Jack all along were based on:

                            Strength as a leader
                            Bravery
                            Honor
                            Sense of humor
                            Intelligence (yes, he acts dumb, but we know he's really not)
                            Modesty

                            I can't wrap my mind around Sam not realizing all along that those were the reasons she loved him.


                            P.S. That is one BODACIOUS sig!

                            sigpic
                            s u g a r s h a k e r



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                              spoilers for s8's threads

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                              Originally posted by sg-1fanintn

                              (snipped)

                              2. Notice also how when he sits down, their body language begins to mirror each other. They hold their hands and shoulders the same way. I have seen them do that a lot. I think it's symbolic of their togetherness, oneness.

                              also notice once jack sits down next to sam, they slowly migrate towards one another until their shoulder are touching (and this is before jack puts his arm around her).


                              sally
                              sally

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                                Another little tidbit posted at the Vartan Ho site (www.vartanhopics.com for those of you Alias/Michael Vartan fans)--

                                In an interview at Stargate SG-1 Solutions, writer Joe Mallozzi had this to say: "A good script is one that engages the viewer from start to finish. It tells a great story, presenting elements that invariably come together at script's end to create a nice, neat little narrative. It is driven by character and strong plotting, its development free of silly complications, conveniences, and contrivances that mark a lazy writer and demonstrate a complete lack of respect for the viewing audience. Sorry, that one's a pet peeve."
                                Rather ironic to see a Stargate PTB saying this, isn't it? I totally agree with it, it just doesn't seem like they followed it as well in S8--

                                silly complications--can we say Pete?
                                conveniences--we will not even TALK about the number of two-minute endings this season
                                contrivances--Moebius, need I say more? (I think I have waxed quite eloquently on that subject already lol)

                                For us, too, Joe! Actually, "pet peeve" sells it short, as it makes it sound like it's not that important, and it SO is! Writers should have the proper respect not only for their story and characters but also for their audience. Resorting to "silly complications" in order to build a story is flat-out bad writing. It's so refreshing to hear a TV writer acknowledge that contrivanced writing, which I think we have all seen and can easily recognize, ultimately shows a total disdain for the viewers. It's like having important guests over and deliberately serving them burned food on dirty, chipped plates. It's rude and lazy. Fans deserve to be served more than dreck. So, you rock, Joe! Thanks for Getting It!
                                And quel surprise, it's what the fans want too! Who knew? We don't want to be served dreck. We are not dumb and we don't need our plots or our ships dumbed down.

                                I posted the comments from the Vartan hos in addition to Joe's comment bc I thought they were VERY relevant to how some of us are feeling right about now. They've left us with some open-ended dribble and thus gotten away without answering "will-they-or-won't-they"? Personally, I don't feel like letting them off unscathed for it though. I agree with whoever said to protest by not watching repeats--it's exactly what I'm doing. I wait until BSG is on to turn on the TV. Funny, I don't miss a minute of BSG, even repeats. I used to feel that way about Stargate.

                                As for ship in Atlantis, I'm going to go on record as shipping for Lizzie and John. But I refuse to commit too heavily to it. After how they have treated shippers thus far, I'm not inclined to commit. So I take it lightly because they'll probably burn us just like they burned us with Sam and Jack.

                                As for the "moonlighting effect", it's crap. Someone said above that it was bc Bruce and Cybill weren't getting along off-screen and they are exactly right. I'm quite sure that translated into the show and THAT (not the ship) is more than likely what ruined it.
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