Tempus (401)

[GateWorld]

<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s4/tempus/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/tempus-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">SANCTUARY SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s4/tempus/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">TEMPUS</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 401</FONT>
<DIV STYLE="margin-top:10px; padding:0;">Magnus goes to 1898 London to try to stop Adam Worth from saving his daughter, which would alter the current time line. <I>(TV Guide)</I></DIV>
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[Feast of the Muse]

Alright, I guess I will kick this off with a question. And it's a spoiler. Where is the spoiler button??? I'll put it in white, highlight if you want to read it.

The description above states that they are in 1898 London, but in reality, John Druitt died in 1888 (of course ours didn't), as did the crime streak he was accused of. So why are we seeing people killed that way in 1898? I know they like to turn history on it's ear, but I thought they were sticking to the established time table?

[yamiinsane]

I'm not sure I can answer that Feast of the Muse...

But all I have to say about the episode is: AWESOME!!!!!!

My jaw is on the ground right now!!!!! I'll try to make sense of it later when I have been able to process it better :)

[Steff]

Over 100 years? Where will she go?

[Mackandal]

Wow. What an amazing episode. I like how we got to see Helen completely afraid of and vulnerable to John, and then of course see her fight back. James was kind of annoying, to be frank, although him with the iPhone was hilarious. The ending was a bit unrealistic- do we really expect Helen Freaking Magnus to be able to lie low for 113 years? And I didn`t quite follow the Jack plotline- so James doesn`t know that John is the Ripper yet? And so he comes up with the theory that it was Spring-Heeled Jack, which he proposes to Past Helen? So then how is Jack a Sanctuary resident now? I should have paid more attention.

[blueray]

wow that was a good ep, and now there's a wait for the next one which i'm not used too...



wow! i was surprised when adam mad the building fall, and it accidentally killed the girl. though that does solve the timeline issue. and of course her killing adam stopped him from trying again. i do wonder what helen is going to do for 113 years. i mean she can interact with people in other parts of the world, just not long enough to make that much of an impression. and also change her name.

i loved all the scenes with watson. and of course the scene where she fights John (you go girl!). anyhow i can't wait for next week, especially after seeing previews.

edit: seems i didn't need to do that :).

[samcartersg1]

Alright, I guess I will kick this off with a question. And it's a spoiler. Where is the spoiler button??? I'll put it in white, highlight if you want to read it.

The description above states that they are in 1898 London, but in reality, John Druitt died in 1888 (of course ours didn't), as did the crime streak he was accused of. So why are we seeing John still killing people in 1898? I know they like to turn history on it's ear, but I thought they were sticking to the established time table?

I will try to answer your question - John committed the Jack the ripper killing in 1888. Helen Time traveled to 1898 and the killings that were taking place were done back Jack, not John. You never see John kill anyone in the episode - just threaten Helen. The scar on his face was a clue that the ripper killings had already happened and Helen caught him. All the killing was done by Springhill Jack in this episode, a decade later that ripper

[Mandysg1]

Alright, I guess I will kick this off with a question. And it's a spoiler. Where is the spoiler button??? I'll put it in white, highlight if you want to read it.

The description above states that they are in 1898 London, but in reality, John Druitt died in 1888 (of course ours didn't), as did the crime streak he was accused of. So why are we seeing John still killing people in 1898? I know they like to turn history on it's ear, but I thought they were sticking to the established time table?

Spoiler button not needed here ;) He was being accused of the crimes, but it was in fact, SpringHeeled Jack who was committing the crimes. I think he stopped by then, but this is Sanctuary so who knows ;)

[Feast of the Muse]

Over 100 years? Where will she go?

I vote everywhere! That explains why we see Helen as even more kickass in the trailers for the new eps. Can you imagine how much more she's learned and done? Wow!!!

[Mandysg1]

She found Kwai Chang Caine and studdied Kung Fu :P

[blueray]

I vote everywhere! That explains why we see Helen as even more kickass in the trailers for the new eps. Can you imagine how much more she's learned and done? Wow!!!

i really can't wait for this! i wonder how much different shes going to be, and what about her accent?

[ann_sgcfan]

Wow. What an amazing episode. I like how we got to see Helen completely afraid of and vulnerable to John, and then of course see her fight back. James was kind of annoying, to be frank, although him with the iPhone was hilarious. The ending was a bit unrealistic- do we really expect Helen Freaking Magnus to be able to lie low for 113 years? And I didn`t quite follow the Jack plotline- so James doesn`t know that John is the Ripper yet? And so he comes up with the theory that it was Spring-Heeled Jack, which he proposes to Past Helen? So then how is Jack a Sanctuary resident now? I should have paid more attention.

My understanding from this eppy is that John Druitt is not JtR. In this eppy they said Spring Hill Jack was the one responsible for the JtR killings. Not real crazy about the idea given all the awesome James/ John dialog from S1 and of course what we have believed for the past 4 years. I'm not a big fan of the way they write John or rewrite John.

Otherwise great episode! I was glad they dedicated the entire episode to the Victorian era. I loved the set, costumes, etc. I really loved how James worried about future humanity lack of civility. Loved the music and the camera work as they showed both Helen's and both Adam's. I like the idea that Helen takes a 113 years off somewhere secluded. I'm guessing dear Watson visits from time to time to check on her and she makes new friends wherever she ends up. I think her being there will alter the future some, and I hope they explore what she did during those years. I hope they use it and don't push it under the rug.

[Dixie_Vampiress]

Um, wow. That. Was Awesome. Totally confused about Jack though. I missed maybe about a minute of when he started talking to Helen. Anybody care to clarify, please?
Also, I suppose I was right about a paradox. Imogene didn't die of the "rare blood disease" so Adam never needed to deliver the Praxian cure. Maybe he'll go back and try to save her anyway (he probably don't even know that she was cured), but it'd still change everything we just saw.

This seemed like a completely different show, but I LOVED it. Pure awesomeness!!!!! Entirely worth the wait! Definitely looking forward to next week! This might actually be the BEST season ever...

[Feast of the Muse]

Um, wow. That. Was Awesome. Totally confused about Jack though. I missed maybe about a minute of when he started talking to Helen. Anybody care to clarify, please?
Also, I suppose I was right about a paradox. Imogene didn't die of the "rare blood disease" so Adam never needed to deliver the Praxian cure. Maybe he'll go back and try to save her anyway (he probably don't even know that she was cured), but it'd still change everything we just saw.

This seemed like a completely different show, but I LOVED it. Pure awesomeness!!!!! Entirely worth the wait! Definitely looking forward to next week! This might actually be the BEST season ever...

I bet he'll do something else nuts. Even though Helen had nothing to do with Imogene's death, did you see that 1898 Adam still blamed it on her? She wasn't there in time. Seriously! He's got it out for her no matter what. He'll probably still try to take out London with gas, and still use Praxian technology to travel back in time, but this time to keep her from being taken out by the building. *rolls eyes at Adam* He's just a bad seed.

I missed the conversation with Jack, and for that matter with John... watching again in 30 mins.

[Mackandal]

But John had to have killed at least some, if not most of the girls. Otherwise he must have tried to deny it at some point during the 100 years since. He even brags and jokes about being the Ripper. Plus we saw him kill that one prostitute in the pilot. And the elemental wouldn`t have just sat there doing nothing.

[Mandysg1]

My understanding from this eppy is that John Druitt is not JtR. In this eppy they said Spring Hill Jack was the one responsible for the JtR killings. Not real crazy about the idea given all the awesome James/ John dialog from S1 and of course what we have believed for the past 4 years. I'm not a big fan of the way they write John or rewrite John.

Otherwise great episode! I was glad they dedicated the entire episode to the Victorian era. I loved the set, costumes, etc. I really loved how James worried about future humanity lack of civility. Loved the music and the camera work as they showed both Helen's and both Adam's. I like the idea that Helen takes a 113 years off somewhere secluded. I'm guessing dear Watson visits from time to time to check on her and she makes new friends wherever she ends up. I think her being there will alter the future some, and I hope they explore what she did during those years. I hope they use it and don't push it under the rug.

This was after the JtR killings, they never said John didn't do those ones, in fact Helen purposely wouldn't tell Watson that John was the killer. These were new killings that looked like JtR's style, but was in fact SpringHeeled Jack. Oy, anyone think there are too many John's and Jacks ;)

[Traveler Enroute1]

She found Kwai Chang Caine and studdied Kung Fu :P

Funny! A lot of theory in this episode; going to have to watch the rebroadcast at midnight.

Love the sets, the costumes, atmosphere, a really nice job of sense of time and place. I felt for poor FutureHelen in the rain!

The scene with PastHelen and Druitt was very chilling. The thought of that strong, intelligent woman being terrorized by him had me speechless and on edge till he took off. Yipes. Amanda was excellent portraying her defenseless Helen. Oh, and then our Helen met him in the alley and delivered some mean whoopa$$. Who says you can't get no satisfaction!

And I kept wondering when the Helen's would bump into each other; would they cancel each other out if they touched? :p Of course they didn't meet but it was very weird with two of her and two of Adam. Interesting touch juxtaposing the two Helens, showing how our Helen had grown since then. BTW, great resolution to the time line thing. The girl had to go and at least Helen didn't have to be the one to do it.

Super season opener. Glad I parked myself with popcorn, phone on silent and full attention. But still have to rewatch this one. Kudos all around. Next week looks full of action, too. I'll be at NY Comic Con, will have to watch it the second time.

[Steff]

I vote everywhere! That explains why we see Helen as even more kickass in the trailers for the new eps. Can you imagine how much more she's learned and done? Wow!!!

FANFICS needed.

[Mackandal]

But if Adam travels back to save her from the rubble, wouldn`t Helen have to try to stop him again? Wouldn`t they go in a cycle of time-traveling and trying to kill each other, until Helen fails, and Adam never has cause to travel back, causing the implosive destruction of the universe??? :eek:

[Steff]

But if Adam travels back to save her from the rubble, wouldn`t Helen have to try to stop him again? Wouldn`t they go in a cycle of time-traveling and trying to kill each other, until Helen fails, and Adam never has cause to travel back, causing the implosive destruction of the universe??? :o

uhhhh..... hum????? Oh yeah..... Right.

[ann_sgcfan]

According to the s1 pilot John did kill a woman and Helen said it stops here. In that episode She seemed to think he was JTR. So is he or have the writers rewritten John's past? Because didn't Helen also in that eppy or in s1 at least say she hasn't seen him since that night and she thought she killed him when she shot him?

If John is JtR then why are they letting him roam the streets free a year later? OR are they just off on their dates and her shooting him was done recently and he wasn't JtR? Yes he killed a woman, but he wasn't responsible for all the killings? They are investigating it like it could be John. The latest killings Helen told James the last woman killed was his 5th victim (wasn't there 5 JtR killings). There seemed to be a lot of similarities between JtR case and spring hill Jack hence the confusion.

[Mandysg1]

uhhhh..... hum????? Oh yeah..... Right.

My thoughts exactly :P

[Steff]

Who is going to do the math for Helen's age in the upcoming episode?

[Mandysg1]

Who is going to do the math for Helen's age in the upcoming episode?

uhhhh..... hum????? Oh yeah..... Right

:P

[Chelle DB]

All this time travel makes my head hurt. :P
Ok, so if Helen has to live it out for 113 years, what happened to the original Helen...or the Helen from the Victorian era in which our Helen travelled to? Wouldn't she continue to live as well given her/their longevity?
I haven't seen the ep as yet but am curious to know what happened to the other Helen.
I don't understand how she can possibly live for all that time without trying to stop certain events...what about Ashley? How does this change things with her? Does she still give birth to Ashley? See...head hurt!!
The whole JtR thing doesn't make my head hurt so much.
I had a feeling that Adam was going to lose Imogene one way or the other...if he continues to go back in time to try to save her, then there's going to be HUGE ramifications for every time line.
Oi...time travel hurts my head! :P

[ann_sgcfan]

she is around 270 to 274 years old. Now that is aging gracefully :D

[LadyGalaxyJ]

I have no words.

It was awesome. I'm so HAPPY about the ending. No shortcut or anything. It's the long way out. Hard, but WOW.

The scene between Helen & John in her bedroom? Made me shiver! I was close to crying at the end when he finally teleported and she almost ran out of there.

The acting was flawless in every scene.

Um? What else to say?
Bring on next week.


Who is going to do the math for Helen's age in the upcoming episode?
274. Including Carentan. @GillianHorvath on Twitter did it for me though. ;P


All this time travel makes my head hurt. :P
Ok, so if Helen has to live it out for 113 years, what happened to the original Helen...or the Helen from the Victorian era in which our Helen travelled to? Wouldn't she continue to live as well given her/their longevity?
I haven't seen the ep as yet but am curious to know what happened to the other Helen.
I don't understand how she can possibly live for all that time without trying to stop certain events...what about Ashley? How does this change things with her? Does she still give birth to Ashley? See...head hurt!!
The whole JtR thing doesn't make my head hurt so much.
I had a feeling that Adam was going to lose Imogene one way or the other...if he continues to go back in time to try to save her, then there's going to be HUGE ramifications for every time line.
Oi...time travel hurts my head! :P
Just watch the ep Chelle. It'll all be clearer. ;) :P

[Mackandal]

So John was Jack, but Jack was also Jack, but not the Jack that killed Jerry or the Jack that save James who is known as John and finds Jack, not the James who is Jimmy.

Now I understand those parents who give their kids unique names.

[Steff]

So John was Jack, but Jack was also Jack, but not the Jack that killed Jerry or the Jack that save James who is known as John and finds Jack, not the James who is Jimmy.

Now I understand those parents who give their kids unique names.

And who is on first?

[Mandysg1]

So John was Jack, but Jack was also Jack, but not the Jack that killed Jerry or the Jack that save James who is known as John and finds Jack, not the James who is Jimmy.

Now I understand those parents who give their kids unique names.

By George I think you've got it :D

[Mackandal]

And then there`s Jonathon.

[Steff]

Helen to John: "And now Jealousy? For whom?"

Wow, I just caught that line.

[Feast of the Muse]

Helen to John: "And now Jealousy? For whom?"

Wow, I just caught that line.

I just caught that too! I'm finding who is calling who "darling" quite interesting.

[Chelle DB]

Just watch the ep Chelle. It'll all be clearer. ;) :P
Do you realise how long I must wait? That is why I ask. :(

[Feast of the Muse]

All this time travel makes my head hurt. :P
Ok, so if Helen has to live it out for 113 years, what happened to the original Helen...or the Helen from the Victorian era in which our Helen travelled to? Wouldn't she continue to live as well given her/their longevity?
I haven't seen the ep as yet but am curious to know what happened to the other Helen.
I don't understand how she can possibly live for all that time without trying to stop certain events...what about Ashley? How does this change things with her? Does she still give birth to Ashley? See...head hurt!!
The whole JtR thing doesn't make my head hurt so much.
I had a feeling that Adam was going to lose Imogene one way or the other...if he continues to go back in time to try to save her, then there's going to be HUGE ramifications for every time line.
Oi...time travel hurts my head! :P

I'm guessing that this takes place after Ashley's conception, as Helen seems to be moving toward a relationship with James already.

The original Helen lives her life through and becomes the Helen that goes back in the past. And when she goes into the past, the one that's been laying low will take her place. This would actually be better explained with a needle and thread. The only time in history when there will be two Helens is that 113 year period. No matter how you play it, before that there is only one Helen and after that there is only one Helen. Clear as mud?

[Inquisitor]

Where was Kate/Agam in the opening title scene?

[Steff]

Where was Kate/Agam in the opening title scene?

Agam is just a guest star this year.

[EvenstarSRV]

According to the s1 pilot John did kill a woman and Helen said it stops here. In that episode She seemed to think he was JTR. So is he or have the writers rewritten John's past? Because didn't Helen also in that eppy or in s1 at least say she hasn't seen him since that night and she thought she killed him when she shot him?

If John is JtR then why are they letting him roam the streets free a year later? OR are they just off on their dates and her shooting him was done recently and he wasn't JtR? Yes he killed a woman, but he wasn't responsible for all the killings? They are investigating it like it could be John. The latest killings Helen told James the last woman killed was his 5th victim (wasn't there 5 JtR killings). There seemed to be a lot of similarities between JtR case and spring hill Jack hence the confusion.

As far as I understand it, John Druitt is still Jack the Ripper who killed those women in 1888. The flashback shown in Sanctuary for All still occurred and Helen still shot John after confronting him at the last killing.

Tempus takes place in 1898, where there's been a string of murders that look like the Ripper killings leading Helen and James to think that Druitt is back to his murdering ways. Druitt realizes that Helen has been hunting for him, so he comes back to confront and threaten her. He has the scar on his cheek so the events of 1888 must still have occurred.

Future!Helen knows that these killings were not done by Druitt, but by Spring-heeled Jack who stopped after that 5th murder because past!Helen and James catch and offer him sanctuary. And in the last scene James tells future!Helen that they did catch 'Jack' and he's now a Sanctuary resident.

Overall, I thought it was a great season premiere. Seeing more of Watson is always great, and I loved the scenes between him and future!Helen. I also thought Ian Tracey did a great job with the two Worths, one more confident and driven, but still gentle with Imogene, and the past version that starts rather gentle and heads towards the hardness the future one has because of her death.

I did think it was a little convenient that future!Adam ends up accidentally killing Imogene, though I like the continuity of past!Adam still ending up blaming Helen and James for her death. Plus he'd still be motivated to find a Praxian cure for her and come back in time to save her. But I think Helen actually having to kill the girl to preserve the timeline would have been more interesting for the character, but perhaps darker than the show wants to go.

Helen on a 113 year vacation would be a sight to see. I hope we get to see some of the effects of that in the rest of the season, being in seclusion for that long after the action-packed life she normally lives would change how she reacts to people.

Bring on the rest of S4! :D

[AtlantisRules!!!]

This episode was awesome :D 'lil bit confused on the whole John thing now. And I'm not happy that Adam's dead. (he had a good run I suppose :P) but on the whole it was very awesome :D I hope the whole season is like this :P

[AtlantisRules!!!]

As far as I understand it, John Druitt is still Jack the Ripper who killed those women in 1888. The flashback shown in Sanctuary for All still occurred and Helen still shot John after confronting him at the last killing.

Tempus takes place in 1898, where there's been a string of murders that look like the Ripper killings leading Helen and James to think that Druitt is back to his murdering ways. Druitt realizes that Helen has been hunting for him, so he comes back to confront and threaten her. He has the scar on his cheek so the events of 1888 must still have occurred.

Future!Helen knows that these killings were not done by Druitt, but by Spring-heeled Jack who stopped after that 5th murder because past!Helen and James catch and offer him sanctuary. And in the last scene James tells future!Helen that they did catch 'Jack' and he's now a Sanctuary resident.

Overall, I thought it was a great season premiere. Seeing more of Watson is always great, and I loved the scenes between him and future!Helen. I also thought Ian Tracey did a great job with the two Worths, one more confident and driven, but still gentle with Imogene, and the past version that starts rather gentle and heads towards the hardness the future one has because of her death.

I did think it was a little convenient that future!Adam ends up accidentally killing Imogene, though I like the continuity of past!Adam still ending up blaming Helen and James for her death. Plus he'd still be motivated to find a Praxian cure for her and come back in time to save her. But I think Helen actually having to kill the girl to preserve the timeline would have been more interesting for the character, but perhaps darker than the show wants to go.

Helen on a 113 year vacation would be a sight to see. I hope we get to see some of the effects of that in the rest of the season, being in seclusion for that long after the action-packed life she normally lives would change how she reacts to people.

Bring on the rest of S4! :D

This makes sense. I understand now :D Thank you :P

[Mack_1]

A totally awesome episode!!

Beautiful season star.

[lookupwardsnshare]

Great episode...loved it. Sanctaury seems to get better and better each season!!! Can't wait til next week!

[Altariel]

Wow, Helen has really to live 113 Years again?!?! Poor women, it will be interesting to see how she is after she is in her time again.

[Chelle DB]

I'm hoping that brunette Helen who has to stay low for 113 years keeps herself busy securing the Sanctuary financially so that when they go rogue from the governments of the world, they don't have to worry about finances so much. Maybe. I hope.
I know, I'm dreaming. :P

Thank you Feast of the Muse for enlightening me on the Helen's. :)

[meredithchandler73]

What a great season opener! Twice the Magnus, twice the fun! I did love seeing the difference between PastHelen and FutureHelen. I loved the moment when she said something like, "It's been a hell of a night." Watson was so shocked by her language. I've often wondered how "ahead of her time" Helen was. She became a doctor when women weren't doing that. She carried a gun back in the 1800s, which was also probably unusual for a woman. When do we think Helen started swearing?

LOVED the scene in the club with Helen and Adam, especially her asking for his last words and his joke about how "Don't shoot" doesn't ever seem to work with her. I wanted to smack him upside his head when he intimated that she had come to him asking for some kind of tryst! Bad boy!

One interesting thought - what was Adam Worth's plan after curing Imogen? It didn't seem like he was going to leave her to grow up with PastAdam. Did he think she'd grow up with him (FutureAdam)? What would have become of PastAdam? Things that make you go, "Hmmmm."

Awesome to see Helen kick John's butt. Does anyone know if Amanda learned kickboxing specifically for this episode or if she was learning it just for fun?

Helen takes a 113-year vacation, huh? It would be interesting to think what she might do with that time. Perhaps she would write!

[majorsal]

it just finished for me. it's too late now for me to stay up and chat (been up since 4:30am and am rather tired :p), but tomorrow i'll read/reply. just one thing, though...

our helen can't just go away somewhere for 130 years and wait and just step back into her life...

because there will be another helen living it!!


k, bed now. i hope i can turn off my brain enough to sleep now :p

[Chelle DB]

IIRC, Amanda does some kind of boxing with a trainer as part of her exercise routine. :) I'm sure I read or heard that somewhere recently. :)

[Altariel]

I really wonder which Helen it is wee see in the future of season 4. If she changed the things Adam had done she would never went back to the past so there would be only the "normal" 161 years old Helen. I guess it is revaled in the second episode? Gosh, I can not wait to see the ep that night. I think it´s a little too gross, every normal person would have a mental breakdown if she would after 113 years suddenly has her old life back in the sanctuary.
And with her lifespan, that is interesting too, she would be nearly 300 and looks still young or did Helen appear older in the trailer for ep 2. Yes, I really have to watch that stuff.


it just finished for me. it's too late now for me to stay up and chat (been up since 4:30am and am rather tired :p), but tomorrow i'll read/reply. just one thing, though...

our helen can't just go away somewhere for 130 years and wait and just step back into her life...

because there will be another helen living it!!


k, bed now. i hope i can turn off my brain enough to sleep now :p

Thats what I mean, there are two Helen and what will happen to either one?

[Chelle DB]

it just finished for me. it's too late now for me to stay up and chat (been up since 4:30am and am rather tired :p), but tomorrow i'll read/reply. just one thing, though...
our helen can't just go away somewhere for 130 years and wait and just step back into her life...
because there will be another helen living it!!
k, bed now. i hope i can turn off my brain enough to sleep now :p
I wonder how the whole two Helen's living in the same time line will affect them...what about what happened in SG1...entropic cascade failure? I know this isn't SG but still, wouldn't there always be two Helen's living in the same time line regardless of if & when Helen goes back to the past...she'll always be there coz she has the gift of longevity...unless at some point, one of the Helen's dies...& that's something I'm not sure I want to see.
See, head still hurts...damn time lines...I hate time travel when it changes things so dramatically.

[Altariel]

But that in Sg 1 was paralel world I think, thats a difference.

[Chelle DB]

I really wonder which Helen it is wee see in the future of season 4. If she changed the things Adam had done she would never went back to the past so there would be only the "normal" 161 years old Helen. I guess it is revaled in the second episode? Gosh, I can not wait to see the ep that night. I think it´s a little too gross, every normal person would have a mental breakdown if she would after 113 years suddenly has her old life back in the sanctuary.
And with her lifespan, that is interesting too, she would be nearly 300 and looks still young or did Helen appear older in the trailer for ep 2. Yes, I really have to watch that stuff.
With her lifespan she will have lived more than just several lifetimes. If she was tired enough of it after the first time around, imagine how cranky she's gonna be the second time...I don't think she'll be so sane in the future. :)

[Chelle DB]

But that in Sg 1 was paralel world I think, thats a difference.
True...but still, 2 Helen's in the same time line has got to be kinda weird...just a smidge, don't ya think. :)

[Altariel]

With her lifespan she will have lived more than just several lifetimes. If she was tired enough of it after the first time around, imagine how cranky she's gonna be the second time...I don't think she'll be so sane in the future. :)

Thats why I feel so sorry for her, it must be terrible thats why I hope nearly 300 years old Helen stops Adam, nothing ever happened and "normal" Helen continues her life.
Something must happen, there can not be two Helens.

[KayLyne]

I'm guessing it's the "present day" Helen finally coming back in the next episode after 113 years of hiding. But what I wouldn't give to see two kick-butt Helens working side-by-side.

I really love to hate Adam. Ian Tracey is wonderful. And Watson's "Sherlock Holmes" brilliant mind really came to the forefront here as well. And AT's portrayal of both past & present Helen as two very different people was the biggest highlight (other than her getting to kick serious Druitt butt.)

Helen mentioning suicide gave me serious chills. But I guess that's the definition of a "hero" - someone who'll make the eternal sacrifice for the good of the whole.

sorry, I can't decide which points to dwell on for this episode, so I'll just point to my full review post here: http://t.co/vaQylcJa

[Julian]

Guess I'm the only person here who was disappointed by the episode... AT and co were talking about how it was the "best" episode every of Sanctuary, but I don't see it.

The timeline and timetravel and all the Jack the Ripper stuff just seems messy...

I also didn't like AT's acting or FutureHelen, I can't work out which it is. She just seemed so unstable and all over the place, like when she was getting angry with PastAdam and James had to tell her off... wtf?

[kes]

I loved the ep, it would have been brilliant if Druitt's back story wasnt a complete mess.
It makes no sense. Magnus changed who got blamed ( by them) for the Ripper killings? It was always that creature and she let Druitt take the fall? Watson let Druitt take the fall? It makes no sense. And Druitt isnt an angel, at least 1 he killed, right in front of Magnus.
*sigh*

[KayLyne]

I loved the ep, it would have been brilliant if Druitt's back story wasnt a complete mess.
It makes no sense. Magnus changed who got blamed ( by them) for the Ripper killings? It was always that creature and she let Druitt take the fall? Watson let Druitt take the fall? It makes no sense. And Druitt isnt an angel, at least 1 he killed, right in front of Magnus.
*sigh*
From how I understand it - by this time, 1898, Druitt was done with the "Ripper" killings. and it was Spring-Heeled Jack that did this last one, but past-Helen and James were still blaming Druitt for it, so that's why he got mad at past-Helen in her house because they were still blaming him for something he didn't do. That's why present-Helen steered James to look towards the "abnormals" instead of Druitt for that last one.

Good grief, I think I even confused myself on that explanation.

[kes]

I really wonder which Helen it is wee see in the future of season 4. If she changed the things Adam had done she would never went back to the past so there would be only the "normal" 161 years old Helen. I guess it is revaled in the second episode? [...]
She stopped Worth from changing things but Worth's path is the same.
Imogene still dies and he still blames Magnus and Watson.

[kes]

From how I understand it - by this time, 1898, Druitt was done with the "Ripper" killings. and it was Spring-Heeled Jack that did this last one, but past-Helen and James were still blaming Druitt for it, so that's why he got mad at past-Helen in her house because they were still blaming him for something he didn't do. That's why present-Helen steered James to look towards the "abnormals" instead of Druitt for that last one.

Good grief, I think I even confused myself on that explanation.
O.o But why is that Jack? She says he's killed before.

EDIT: Ignore the above Qs. I was still asleep. Springheel Jack, completly different from Jack the Ripper.
What was up with these Brits and the name Jack ?! LOL

[Altariel]

She stopped Worth from changing things but Worth's path is the same.
Imogene still dies and he still blames Magnus and Watson.

But what would happen if 270 year old Helen kills Adam before he can create all the mess with time travel she could just let him die when he was ill from the radiaton or some other way and normal 160 year old Helen would never travel back in time. What will she do when she lifes 113 years and is again in 2011? She could do nothing, then younger Helen would travel back and she could take her place but and don´t think she would do that to herself.

I´m so excited and I not even watched the ep.

[lillypilly]

I think it helps to remember we're not talking about two different women here - past Helen and (our) present Helen are the same person. We know present Helen goes back in time because she went back in time. If the timeline had been altered -- well, in order to alter the timeline to prevent themselves going back in time, they would have had to go back in time... so we know the timeline hasn't been altered. Lol, sorry. That makes sense to me, but possibly not to anyone else.

The point is, Helen will always end up going back in time, because she went back in time to make sure nothing changed - including the going back in time part.

(Unless this is a case of parallel timelines occurring, like in the SG1 ep Mobius. Because that kind of time travel works differently. Basically, by going back in time, Adam and Helen created an alternate timeline independent of the first one, and the 2011 that Helen returns to might be different than the one she left - in THAT case, Helen might not end up having to go back in time, and so there would be two Helens going forward, which could be interesting but complicated. Man, I love this time travel stuff. SO FUN AND CONFUSING.)

I think it will be clear in the next episode whether the timeline was preserved or not. Helen will end up going back in time to stop Adam, and then she will pop right back up because she's been waiting for 113 years to do so.

[lastrequest]

Awesome episode!!

The Jack The Ripper / SPJack thing confused the hell out of me... but having read through previous posts that's making sense now. John did kill a load of women, then SHJack killed a load.

I knew she'd have to kill future Adam... and it makes sense that Adam still blames past Helen (because either way his belief is that if she'd treated Imogene she wouldn't have gone missing this time round). And I liked how they showed Adam screaming over her body (like previously when she was in the hospital bed...) because this is still the moment when he goes a bit split-personality, right??

I was sort of upset that Helen has to wait 113 years to rejoin her timeline... although it had been suggested so I wasn't too surprised. I just feel really bad for her character. Like she hasn't suffered enough heartache / isolation? To have to sort of relive through all those deaths of people she cared about? To not be able to step in and change anything? But it does make things really interesting for her character so I can certainly understand why that decision was made.

I suppose she may stay well away from wherever past-Helen is, so she doesn't have to watch it all play out again (like when she watched her and John's encounter, it really seemed to unsettle her, and rightly so).

Maybe she travels the world setting up the different sanctuaries?? Or maybe she makes a lot of contacts for future use? Maybe she sends the odd anonymous tip off to herself?

And OMG and thinking about Helen being 274!!!!

I think this could go in one of two ways really;
* 274yr old Helen is more disconnected / makes decisions we can't comprehend / can't relate to people
OR
* 274yr old Helen having spent 113 years vactioning (although I'm pretty sure she will be working to help the Sanctuaries in some way or another) is maybe a little warmer? Maybe having thought about and missed everyone at her Sanctuary for so long we see a more open side to her??

*ponders*

Things have become very interesting.....

[RealmOfX]

Great start to the season!!

I liked that they kept the time travel stuff relatively simple and concentrated on the characters and gave us a slightly different perspective of the past. I also liked the brief red herring of the other Jack. The episode was beautifully shot too.

I loved the character interactions, the two different versions of Helen and older Helen briefly trying to fool Watson. They kept the mood of Helen the same too from the previous episode. Take one edgy and angry Helen then throw her back in time with the added weight of having to save the world yet again, then drop a ton of bricks on her (literally) and lock her up (with a probable concussion) then let her loose on Victorian London. No wonder she kicked John's butt. Love it!

Bummer that Helen is going to have to live another century or so in supposed seclusion just to get back to her old life but it does increase the story telling potential :D both for the future (2011 and forward) and the intervening years (1898-2011). To simplify the story telling they could just have Magnus lay low for all that time BUT it would be cool if they would occasionally visit older Helen's second trip through the 20th Century and maybe apply the ole Sanctuary twist to their tales. Like take a self fulfilling prophecy approach and have it that major historical events aren't happening like they should and older Helen has to quietly intervene to get history back on track. (I like my time travel twisty :D ). Just imagine, we have our view of history, which Sanctuary then adds their twist to the story and then secretly operating behind that, is Helen shaping the events too :D

[kes]

But what would happen if 270 year old Helen kills Adam before he can create all the mess with time travel she could just let him die when he was ill from the radiaton or some other way and normal 160 year old Helen would never travel back in time. What will she do when she lifes 113 years and is again in 2011? She could do nothing, then younger Helen would travel back and she could take her place but and don´t think she would do that to herself.

I´m so excited and I not even watched the ep.
Unless they change something in the next ep, Worth and Magnus time line remains the same. Old Magnus has to wait till the day she left after Worth and everthing is back to "normal".

[fems]

But if Adam travels back to save her from the rubble, wouldn`t Helen have to try to stop him again? Wouldn`t they go in a cycle of time-traveling and trying to kill each other, until Helen fails, and Adam never has cause to travel back, causing the implosive destruction of the universe??? :eek:

What Feast of the Muse said:



The original Helen lives her life through and becomes the Helen that goes back in the past. And when she goes into the past, the one that's been laying low will take her place. This would actually be better explained with a needle and thread. The only time in history when there will be two Helens is that 113 year period. No matter how you play it, before that there is only one Helen and after that there is only one Helen. Clear as mud?

There will always be two Helens from now on, but OriginalHelen knows that PastHelen will go back in time in 2011 to go after Adam. No one knew that OriginalHelen had gone after Adam and therefore no one will know when the time comes again and PastHelen will do the same. Therefore, OriginalHelen (who's been lying low for 113 years and possibly making contacts and getting money for Sanctuary to go rogue) can easily step in when PastHelen goes back in time without anyone noticing it. It will also explain why Helen would be darker this season and why she and Will will argue more, since she has yet another secret and has been changed because of those extra 113 years that no one but her knows about.


I'm guessing that this takes place after Ashley's conception, as Helen seems to be moving toward a relationship with James already.

I thought PastHelen might have actually been pregnant at this point. The first time we see her she walks in with her hand on her stomach, which might indicate she's not feeling all that well ('morning' sickness or has realized she's pregnant) and it seemed like there could have been a small bump. It could have been part of the wardrobe but OriginalHelen, presumably wearing PastHelen's clothes, didn't seem to have it... It also seemed like PastHelen was checking out which clothes would fit her better when she checked her closet (with OriginalHelen around the corner).

With John threatening her the way he did (after which she again cradled her stomach and walked off), it wouldn't be that far-fetched of her to think it might be better to freeze the embryo and carry it to terms once John is gone, having died a natural death or something.


As far as I understand it, John Druitt is still Jack the Ripper who killed those women in 1888. The flashback shown in Sanctuary for All still occurred and Helen still shot John after confronting him at the last killing.

Tempus takes place in 1898, where there's been a string of murders that look like the Ripper killings leading Helen and James to think that Druitt is back to his murdering ways. Druitt realizes that Helen has been hunting for him, so he comes back to confront and threaten her. He has the scar on his cheek so the events of 1888 must still have occurred.

Future!Helen knows that these killings were not done by Druitt, but by Spring-heeled Jack who stopped after that 5th murder because past!Helen and James catch and offer him sanctuary. And in the last scene James tells future!Helen that they did catch 'Jack' and he's now a Sanctuary resident.

I also believe John is still JtR and that SHJ did the more recent killings, as OriginalHelen suggested. However, I find it strange to think that everyone would have known about John's previous killings and still accept him in some way. If not and Helen was still hunting him, then how could she have gotten pregnant?

It also makes me wonder if PastHelen and James would have come to the same conclusion about SHJ doing the killings, seeing as how OriginalHelen convinced James to keep looking, hinted at the creature needing Sanctuary and she went to talk to SHJ and convince him to stop his murdering ways and join her Sanctuary... If OriginalHelen hadn't done all this, would PastHelen and James still come to the same conclusion?

OriginalHelen knew that the most recent victim would be the last, which begs the question if she knew she had convinced SHJ to stop or because she kicked John's ass and told him to stay away from her. If she knew it was because of SHJ then how come PastHelen didn't find him and convince him if that was what OriginalHelen had done in the past? How could she have been so certain?

As for John staying away from her... if she thought she had killed him in that flashback from Sanctuary for All then he must have returned at some point and yet he never mentioned their encounter in this alley, her ass kicking skills and her hair?

Overall, I thought it was a great season premiere. Seeing more of Watson is always great, and I loved the scenes between him and future!Helen. I also thought Ian Tracey did a great job with the two Worths, one more confident and driven, but still gentle with Imogene, and the past version that starts rather gentle and heads towards the hardness the future one has because of her death.



I'm hoping that brunette Helen who has to stay low for 113 years keeps herself busy securing the Sanctuary financially so that when they go rogue from the governments of the world, they don't have to worry about finances so much. Maybe. I hope.
I know, I'm dreaming. :P

Thank you Feast of the Muse for enlightening me on the Helen's. :)

Yes, I agree, I too would like to think she's smart enough to do so. She already knows the creatures from Hollow Earth came to the surface and how the government would treat them (in a non-Sanctuary way). She's had conflicts with governments and even her own Sanctuary heads before, so it would be a good thing to get as ready as possible for when she takes her Sanctuary to go rogue.


What a great season opener! Twice the Magnus, twice the fun! I did love seeing the difference between PastHelen and FutureHelen. I loved the moment when she said something like, "It's been a hell of a night." Watson was so shocked by her language. I've often wondered how "ahead of her time" Helen was. She became a doctor when women weren't doing that. She carried a gun back in the 1800s, which was also probably unusual for a woman.

I laughed at that! I actually went back to rewatch it, because it was such a great moment. I was already wondering when she would slip up about something, either her words or her accent when James found her in jail. I mean, she had a 113 years of language (d)evolution, depending on how you look at it and presumably her accent has changed over the years because of her living all over the world too. Hadn't quite expected it to be like this, which made it even better!


LOVED the scene in the club with Helen and Adam, especially her asking for his last words and his joke about how "Don't shoot" doesn't ever seem to work with her. I wanted to smack him upside his head when he intimated that she had come to him asking for some kind of tryst! Bad boy!

I loved that! His remark was so... Adam! If looks could kill... But it really fit with the place and setting, with Simon's disdain of her entering their establishment and the general attitude of the men there at her presence.


One interesting thought - what was Adam Worth's plan after curing Imogen? It didn't seem like he was going to leave her to grow up with PastAdam. Did he think she'd grow up with him (FutureAdam)? What would have become of PastAdam? Things that make you go, "Hmmmm."

Yeah, it seemed like he was going to conquer the world with her. While I like the whole Adam story arc there's just one thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me; why would he go through all that trouble to save his daughter? I mean, yeah she's his daughter and with today's (and Praxian) medicine he can easily save her, but he's lived over a century with evil plans and seems to have no conscience at all...

[fems]

But what would happen if 270 year old Helen kills Adam before he can create all the mess with time travel she could just let him die when he was ill from the radiaton or some other way and normal 160 year old Helen would never travel back in time. What will she do when she lifes 113 years and is again in 2011? She could do nothing, then younger Helen would travel back and she could take her place but and don´t think she would do that to herself.


No, she can't. Because it OriginalHelen wouldn't help him go to Hollow Earth for his cure of radiation sickness, then PastHelen (who would be ~160 years old by then and running the Sanctuary) would also die, which isn't supposed to happen... yet. OriginalHelen can't interfere and will have to take PastHelen's place when she goes after Adam, because there's no way back to the future and she knows it! But she's still there, 113 years wiser and hopefully better prepared to take care of the Sanctuary. It's not really a question of whether or not allowing her past self to go back in time and taking her place, but more a necessity; PastHelen has to go back in time because Adam will do so as well and she will have to stop him, but someone has to take over the Sanctuary or it will all fall apart.


Awesome episode!!
I knew she'd have to kill future Adam... and it makes sense that Adam still blames past Helen (because either way his belief is that if she'd treated Imogene she wouldn't have gone missing this time round). And I liked how they showed Adam screaming over her body (like previously when she was in the hospital bed...) because this is still the moment when he goes a bit split-personality, right??

Yeah, one way or another Adam will never take responsibility for whatever happens and will continue to blame others. Although I have to disagree with you about why he's mad at PastHelen now; it seemed to me like he blamed her and James for not helping him (enough) to find her after she'd been abducted. OriginalHelen said so herself; Adam wasn't supposed to come to them to help cure Imogen for another two months.

The moment of split-personality is indeed still there, which would suggest that Adam will continue to follow into the footsteps of his future self even if the cause of death was different... so in the end, not much has changed (luckily).


I was sort of upset that Helen has to wait 113 years to rejoin her timeline... although it had been suggested so I wasn't too surprised. I just feel really bad for her character. Like she hasn't suffered enough heartache / isolation? To have to sort of relive through all those deaths of people she cared about? To not be able to step in and change anything? But it does make things really interesting for her character so I can certainly understand why that decision was made.

She knows what will happen, but I suspect she will stay away from those events and people and work on plans for when she can step in and take her place as head of the Sanctuary again in 113 years, with some changes of course.



I suppose she may stay well away from wherever past-Helen is, so she doesn't have to watch it all play out again (like when she watched her and John's encounter, it really seemed to unsettle her, and rightly so).

It was upsetting and presumably that's the way it went down for her the first time as well, but I also think she may have been watching and ready to step in because she wasn't sure how much her own presence in the past would change the events in this timeline.



And OMG and thinking about Helen being 274!!!!

I think this could go in one of two ways really;
* 274yr old Helen is more disconnected / makes decisions we can't comprehend / can't relate to people
OR
* 274yr old Helen having spent 113 years vactioning (although I'm pretty sure she will be working to help the Sanctuaries in some way or another) is maybe a little warmer? Maybe having thought about and missed everyone at her Sanctuary for so long we see a more open side to her??

*ponders*

Things have become very interesting.....

I'm not sure about your two options. I think she will become slightly more disconnected and might make decisions we can't comprehend, but I don't think she'd be unable to relate to people nor would she vacation away 113 years if she normally only takes a long weekend every seven years! :P

But it will definitely be interesting to see what will happen. It also gives a slight twist to the scenes we've seen in one of the trailers


where she unequivocally states "I'm running the show from here on".

And the other one where she and Will step into the elevator.

"Don't tell me, it's a long story."

"Oooh, you have no idea."


ETA:
Was PastHelen's "Jealous of whom?" another hint at something... unVictorian?

ETA:

Aahh, just realized that Ashley had to have been conceived (and frozen) already in 1898 otherwise Helen couldn't have kept the embryo "frozen for over a century". Darn.

[jckfan55]

Great start to the season!!

I liked that they kept the time travel stuff relatively simple and concentrated on the characters and gave us a slightly different perspective of the past. I also liked the brief red herring of the other Jack. The episode was beautifully shot too.

I loved the character interactions, the two different versions of Helen and older Helen briefly trying to fool Watson. They kept the mood of Helen the same too from the previous episode. Take one edgy and angry Helen then throw her back in time with the added weight of having to save the world yet again, then drop a ton of bricks on her (literally) and lock her up (with a probable concussion) then let her loose on Victorian London. No wonder she kicked John's butt. Love it!

Bummer that Helen is going to have to live another century or so in supposed seclusion just to get back to her old life but it does increase the story telling potential :D both for the future (2011 and forward) and the intervening years (1898-2011). To simplify the story telling they could just have Magnus lay low for all that time BUT it would be cool if they would occasionally visit older Helen's second trip through the 20th Century and maybe apply the ole Sanctuary twist to their tales. Like take a self fulfilling prophecy approach and have it that major historical events aren't happening like they should and older Helen has to quietly intervene to get history back on track. (I like my time travel twisty :D ). Just imagine, we have our view of history, which Sanctuary then adds their twist to the story and then secretly operating behind that, is Helen shaping the events too :D
:indeed: Poor Helen having to live another 113 years before resuming her life. (though it makes my brain hurt to think how that happens. Do original Helen and time travel Helen just merge? ) But as you say--story telling potential. How will she be different? She'll have had a long time to think about her life and what to do about the crisis.
I liked seeing both Helens and how different they were. Sort of Helen and Magnus. The scene with Druitt in her room was nail biting tense. Magnus realizes she's taken Helen's guns. oops. Poor Helen and the pain John's caused her. Then Magnus' confrontation with John later. Excellent.
Part of me wished we stayed in Victorian England for two episodes, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Damien & Co have in store for us next week.
Loved seeing Magnus interact with Watson.

[RealmOfX]

:indeed: Poor Helen having to live another 113 years before resuming her life. (though it makes my brain hurt to think how that happens. Do original Helen and time travel Helen just merge? ) But as you say--story telling potential. How will she be different? She'll have had a long time to think about her life and what to do about the crisis.
I liked seeing both Helens and how different they were. Sort of Helen and Magnus. The scene with Druitt in her room was nail biting tense. Magnus realizes she's taken Helen's guns. oops. Poor Helen and the pain John's caused her. Then Magnus' confrontation with John later. Excellent.
Part of me wished we stayed in Victorian England for two episodes, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Damien & Co have in store for us next week.
Loved seeing Magnus interact with Watson.

No, they don't merge. There is really only one Helen Magnus however due to the time travelling there are two instances of her in the same time line for a period of time.
For the visually inclined imagine a piece of string that has been looped once - it is one piece of string but if you were to look only at the part where it loops it appears there are two strings. Same concept.

Yeah I can't wait for next week either, who am I kidding? I can't wait for the rest of the season! :D So much story potential!

[hedwig]

Alright, I guess I will kick this off with a question. And it's a spoiler. Where is the spoiler button??? I'll put it in white, highlight if you want to read it.

The description above states that they are in 1898 London, but in reality, John Druitt died in 1888 (of course ours didn't), as did the crime streak he was accused of. So why are we seeing people killed that way in 1898? I know they like to turn history on it's ear, but I thought they were sticking to the established time table?

The spoiler button is apparently gone. But you can still type it in, like this: ( (spoiler] [/spoiler) ) - except put a bracket at the beginning and end of each spoiler word, instead of parenthesis.

[blueray]

i see it that helen and adam will always go back in time (present helen can't stop this or it'll change her timeline, meaning that she wouldn't be there to change it). its going to be interesting to see how different helen is going to be after another 113 years. i wonder if shes going to tell anyone what happened.

[Trynki]

I didn't know it was possible, but Sanctuary just gets better every season!
After season 4 is finished I think they should do a spin off that takes place around 1898, it was great seeing Watson and Druitt. I loved how Druitt was all surprised at Magnus being all badass and kicking his ass

[Mandysg1]

I do think this was an excellent episode :D We see dark haired Helen 'losing it' for a bit, she had just seen Praxis destroyed along with who knows how many living there, including her father; then she jumps back to the past. This explains a lot about why she is so dark in this episode and why she goes off on past Adam. LOL, I loved both James' and John's reactions to her hair colour (you know it's all about the hair ;) )

The differences between our Helen and past Helen is played perfectly by Amanda, we see how much she has changed from the more 'innocent' time. What a surprise for John to see such a kick-ass Helen!

Poor Helen, she has so much knowledge that she can't share, not even with James. She can't tell James or John about the energy creature that made John into the murderer, becasuse she would be changing history. Any knowledge shared could potentially change history. That's a lot to keep to yourself.

I think by the end of the episode, we see a less angry Helen, one who has seen her main purpose for travelling back in time succeed; even if it was achieved by a different method. Helen now knows her fate and is ready to sacrifice herself. I'm glad James came up with another plan ;)

So now the confusing part....time travel oy ;) If future Helen comes back just after past Helen goes back, wouldn't that mean past Helen would do the same thing as future Helen and come back 113 years later? Still giving us 2 Helens :S

Yep time travel gives me a headache ;)

[ann_sgcfan]

According to SyFy Sanctuary official page the Tempus episode recap says the following:


On her way to stop Worth, Magnus encounters the Abnormal that will become the Sanctuary's first resident, a humanoid creature by the name of Spring-Heeled Jack. Jack is responsible for the murders attributed to Jack the Ripper, and Magnus persuades Spring-Heeled Jack to end his rampage and find asylum with her and Watson.

http://www.syfy.com/sanctuary/episodes

same recap here http://www.tv.com/shows/sanctuary/tempus-1400102/

[fems]

According to SyFy Sanctuary official page the Tempus episode recap says the following:


http://www.syfy.com/sanctuary/episodes

same recap here http://www.tv.com/shows/sanctuary/tempus-1400102/

What?! All of Jack the Ripper's killings? Talk about letting your ex get off the hook easily, gee... :rolleyes:

[ames]

I thought this was a great episode, both character-wise and in setting up potential future plotlines.
They handled the potential paradoxes of two Adams, two Helens, and dealing with the temptations of future knowledge quite well, IMO.

I loved Amanda's portrayal of the two Helens - we really see how her personality has evolved over the past century, as it should do ... there were also still enough things similar to see the commonality - "bloody hell" was cute, for example. The two Adam's were done fairly well as a progression of attitude ... I think Imogen summed it up best when she told her father that he seemed more confident. Very true.

I was concerned with what the act of killing a cured Imogen would do to Helen's psyche, especially as she's still relatively fresh from the death of Ashley. I believe that SHE believes it's what she has to do, but I doubt many contemporary others would see it that way. I think Helen neglected to remember that whatever actions she did would also have repercussions on her Victorian self, which would irreparably damage the timeline as well. As Adam pointed out in the Gentlemen's club, becoming a murderer with this many witnesses would most definitely affect what happened to her old self, and therefore the future just as well!

I like how they tied up the above issue both by having Adam inadvertently kill Imogen (arguably again?), so Helen was removed from that decision and its potential fallout. She was then able to remove "future" Adam without witnesses - the one thing he kept holding over her in her previous attempts. I feel they did a good job of maintaining the timeline by having "then" Adam blame James and "then" Helen for exasperating the situation (by not being supportive when he asked for their help, for not arriving to stop the "accident", whichever). You could almost see his psyche begin to split as he looked up to the sky while holding his daughter ... and I totally believe he's now going to follow a similar path as "now" Helen would remember, eventually returning to this time to try to save his daughter from being kidnapped...and curing her at the same time, of course. I feel it sets itself up as a believable timeloop -- at least this time around!


I'm guessing that this takes place after Ashley's conception, as Helen seems to be moving toward a relationship with James already.

The original Helen lives her life through and becomes the Helen that goes back in the past. And when she goes into the past, the one that's been laying low will take her place. This would actually be better explained with a needle and thread. The only time in history when there will be two Helens is that 113 year period. No matter how you play it, before that there is only one Helen and after that there is only one Helen. Clear as mud?

I agree - after blonde Helen and John have their ... erm ... discussion, she's got her hand to her stomach as she exits the room. I figured that was a hint towards her early stages of the pregnancy with Ashley. Of course, I also could be reading too much into it, but a showdown like that would definitely have made me think twice about the safety of allowing this man into his future child's life, regardless of my personal emotional ties!


Where was Kate/Agam in the opening title scene?

I wondered that too... are they going to use the quartet until later in the season so as to not give any hints away regarding character changes, or has Agam shifted down to guest appearance status?



I do think this was an excellent episode :D We see dark haired Helen 'losing it' for a bit, she had just seen Praxis destroyed along with who knows how many living there, including her father; then she jumps back to the past. This explains a lot about why she is so dark in this episode and why she goes off on past Adam. LOL, I loved both James' and John's reactions to her hair colour (you know it's all about the hair ;) )

The differences between our Helen and past Helen is played perfectly by Amanda, we see how much she has changed from the more 'innocent' time. What a surprise for John to see such a kick-ass Helen!

Poor Helen, she has so much knowledge that she can't share, not even with James. She can't tell James or John about the energy creature that made John into the murderer, becasuse she would be changing history. Any knowledge shared could potentially change history. That's a lot to keep to yourself.

I think by the end of the episode, we see a less angry Helen, one who has seen her main purpose for travelling back in time succeed; even if it was achieved by a different method. Helen now knows her fate and is ready to sacrifice herself. I'm glad James came up with another plan ;)

So now the confusing part....time travel oy ;) If future Helen comes back just after past Helen goes back, wouldn't that mean past Helen would do the same thing as future Helen and come back 113 years later? Still giving us 2 Helens :S

Yep time travel gives me a headache ;)

I agree, by the end of the episode, brunette Helen seems to have calmed down a bit. At the beginning she was undoubtedly running on a huge adrenaline kick, fueled by outrageous indignation, remorse for the all the loss of life, as well as I'm thinking perhaps a little jealousy. Afterall, she wasn't able to save her daughter after everything she did (it's not like cryo'ing an embryo is exactly a light decision to make, I'm sure) ... so why should Adam be allowed to go back and change his personal timeline? That being said, if Adam hadn't been overtly powerhungry and making loud plans for global domination ... if he had truly just wanted to rescue Imogen and allow her to live out her life with his past self without actively altering anything else -- heck, he could have planned to slip in, give her an injection, and slip back out without even waking her up, and then sacrificing himself knowing his past would be altered for the better ... would Helen have been so hellbent on stopping him? I know it's a giant "what-if" but ...

To answer your q Mandy, yes and no. Yes there will be two Helens roaming the earth for the 113 years, but at that point the timeloop will cease, and we will only have one Helen progressing forward (as the second Helen had now gone back 113 years to become the first Helen to the third Helen. Dang this would be easier with a flowchart! LOL! Okay you have Helen A, who eventually hits 2011, and goes back in time, where she overlaps with her younger self, Helen B. Once we hit 2011 again, Helen B (who has been following the same original life path as Helen A) will go back in time to overlap with *her* younger self, Helen C, allowing a gap for Helen A to reinsert herself. So as of 2012, we'll have Helen C and Helen B back in 1899 while Helen A is active in 2012.

Well, that's how I understand it, anyway. Basically there's two Helens for the 113 year period between 1898 and 2011, but only one before and only one afterwards. Assuming the brunette Helen (yes, it really *IS* all about the hair LOL ;)) survives up to 2011 the second time around, anyway! The only person who knows the truth besides Helen herself is James, who will sadly pass away before the 2011 event.

I do hope we get to find out where she spends some of her 113 year long "vacation" ... if not, I know what my question for the Q'n'A at AT6 will be! :D

[Hitokage]

hey guys do i understand it correctly?
Now we have two Helens in one time (present)? The Helen from future and Helen from normal timeline?

[kes]

Anyone know who plays Spring-Heel (Spring-Heeled) Jack? I'm getting such a Robin Dunne vibe from him.

[Feast of the Muse]

hey guys do i understand it correctly?
Now we have two Helens in one time (present)? The Helen from future and Helen from normal timeline?

I'm told we don't have to use spoilers in here. Yay!

Basically, from 1898 to 2011, there will be two Helens. One (48 years old in 1898) will be active and moving things forward, one (167 years old in 1898) will be laying low. After the 167 year old Helen goes back to the past to stop Adam, 270 year old Helen will basically walk in the front door and take over. Most people in that world won't know she went back to the past at all.

[Mandysg1]

According to SyFy Sanctuary official page the Tempus episode recap says the following:


On her way to stop Worth, Magnus encounters the Abnormal that will become the Sanctuary's first resident, a humanoid creature by the name of Spring-Heeled Jack. Jack is responsible for the murders attributed to Jack the Ripper, and Magnus persuades Spring-Heeled Jack to end his rampage and find asylum with her and Watson.

http://www.syfy.com/sanctuary/episodes

same recap here http://www.tv.com/shows/sanctuary/tempus-1400102/


What?! All of Jack the Ripper's killings? Talk about letting your ex get off the hook easily, gee... :rolleyes:

I take it as these new murders, which took place 10 years after the Ripper murders, were being attributed to JtR; which is why John had the show down with blonde Helen, telling her it wasn't him and having her look into his eyes to see the truth. Which she didn't and why he got so upset. So yes the original murders he did commit, as we saw he had the scar from Helen shooting him when she saw him kill the prostitute in s1.

[Kilgharrah]

If my calculations are correct, her age would correspond to approx. 70 years old. That is old. She has longetivity, but she will eventually die. She is taking off of those years as if she's immortal. She's not. I can't imagine how someone can live alone and away for those they know for 113. I would die of boredom, if I were her. At least on the first time, she had the people she knew alongside her. Some of them did die, but still, she had some of them.

[ames]

I have a feeling the 270yr old Magnus will stride through the door sporting all sorts of 'new' knowledge, skills and contact base. Which might make it more difficult to keep those close to her in the dark about the switch. In the very least she'll have to tell John some of what happened - he was with her when she left after Adam, was he not?

[Feast of the Muse]

If my calculations are correct, her age would correspond to approx. 70 years old. That is old. She has longetivity, but she will eventually die. She is taking off of those years as if she's immortal. She's not. I can't imagine how someone can live alone and away for those they know for 113. I would die of boredom, if I were her. At least on the first time, she had the people she knew alongside her. Some of them did die, but still, she had some of them.

Well, she's a doctor and a scientist. Yeah, she'll be bored, but not like most people. She's very capable of self-entertainment.

I'm just sad for her that she can't have another family! One hundred and thirteen more years, so soon after losing Ashley? And she finally brought Ashley to term because she "could bear the loneliness no longer". How lonely will she be now... wow. No wonder her response (next episode's trailer) to Will's "Long story?" is a quite cranky "You have no idea."

[lookupwardsnshare]

Anyone know who plays Spring-Heel (Spring-Heeled) Jack? I'm getting such a Robin Dunne vibe from him.

I got the same vibe too. Anyone know?

[Kilgharrah]

Has anyone noticed that Kate wasn't in the opening credits?
She's gonna leave???? I never heard anything like that.
I can't begin to think how Worth will be like right now. Maybe much worse. Afterall, his daughter didn't die of natural causes this time which makes it worse.

[Kilgharrah]

I got the same vibe too. Anyone know?
It was played by Fraser Aitcheson.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1568712/
Got that info from: http://www.tv.com/shows/sanctuary/tempus-1400102/

[Feast of the Muse]

I got the same vibe too. Anyone know?

Just checked out the IMDB but nothing. I wonder if, like Chris playing Biggie, they want to keep it to themselves for fun?

ETA: I have to be perfectly honest. Will usually annoys the crap out of me, so when we have these episodes without him I almost forget about him entirely, so I wasn't even thinking about Robin for SHJ. Considering he is main cast and I assume paid to appear in all the eps, why not use him for that? I didn't see him anywhere else in the ep.

[fems]

Has anyone noticed that Kate wasn't in the opening credits?
She's gonna leave???? I never heard anything like that.
I can't begin to think how Worth will be like right now. Maybe much worse. Afterall, his daughter didn't die of natural causes this time which makes it worse.

But she still would have died of natural causes hadn't she been abducted. He doesn't know that his future self had (partially?) cured her already, so he would probably continue on in much the same way his future self did in the past and eventually end up in Praxis and travel back in time to save her; this time from being kidnapped as well as curing her.

[Kilgharrah]

But she still would have died of natural causes hadn't she been abducted. He doesn't know that his future self had (partially?) cured her already, so he would probably continue on in much the same way his future self did in the past and eventually end up in Praxis and travel back in time to save her; this time from being kidnapped as well as curing her.
Whoa!!!! Too many Adams and Helens.

[Steff]

Has anyone noticed that Kate wasn't in the opening credits?
She's gonna leave???? I never heard anything like that.
I can't begin to think how Worth will be like right now. Maybe much worse. Afterall, his daughter didn't die of natural causes this time which makes it worse.

Agam is a guest star this year.

[Celandine]

Okay, tried to read as many pages as I could to see if this was mentioned, but didn't see anything. Soo..

At the end when Helen mentions suicide I had a disturbing/confused thought. Aren't the two Helen's (past and future) the same person? If one is killed, won't the other cease to exist??

Going off by herself for over 100 years to bide her time is quite an intriguing idea with all the places and people she could meet along the way and the richness of the stories we hopefully might get to see with it. I wonder how the two will meet years later to combine the past and present Helen's together. Past Helen will understand, but will Future Helen? Will there be some kind of magnificent light show and sonic boom of some sort?

Overall, very intriguing episode. Loved how quick future Helen was to find a full-length leather jacket to go over her dress. Hot.

Loved Helen's fighting skills, especially with John. OMG. Even John was a little shocked with her skill. That's not the Helen he knew and I can't help but wonder how this knowledge might play out later. Will John confront her? Or just pass it off to her practicing in private? Good on her though. Love how she stood up to him and fought back. :)

One question. Who is Spring-Heeled Jack? How did I not recognize him? :confused:

[Steff]

Okay, tried to read as many pages as I could to see if this was mentioned, but didn't see anything. Soo..

At the end when Helen mentions suicide I had a disturbing/confused thought. Aren't the two Helen's (past and future) the same person? If one is killed, won't the other cease to exist??

Going off by herself for over 100 years to bide her time is quite an intriguing idea with all the places and people she could meet along the way and the richness of the stories we hopefully might get to see with it. I wonder how the two will meet years later to combine the past and present Helen's together. Past Helen will understand, but will Future Helen? Will there be some kind of magnificent light show and sonic boom of some sort?

Overall, very intriguing episode. Loved how quick future Helen was to find a full-length leather jacket to go over her dress. Hot.

Loved Helen's fighting skills, especially with John. OMG. Even John was a little shocked with her skill. That's not the Helen he knew and I can't help but wonder how this knowledge might play out later. Will John confront her? Or just pass it off to her practicing in private? Good on her though. Love how she stood up to him and fought back. :)

One question. Who is Spring-Heeled Jack? How did I not recognize him? :confused:

If Past Helen died then yes, both would cease to exist because there will be no future for Helen. But Past Helen existence is not tied the same way to timing of Future Helen's death. Ok, did that sound like a smart answer? hehe

[fems]

Okay, tried to read as many pages as I could to see if this was mentioned, but didn't see anything. Soo..

At the end when Helen mentions suicide I had a disturbing/confused thought. Aren't the two Helen's (past and future) the same person? If one is killed, won't the other cease to exist??

If FutureHelen kills herself nothing would happen to PastHelen since she is PastHelen only from the future. However, if PastHelen were to die, then FutureHelen would cease to exist.


Going off by herself for over 100 years to bide her time is quite an intriguing idea with all the places and people she could meet along the way and the richness of the stories we hopefully might get to see with it. I wonder how the two will meet years later to combine the past and present Helen's together. Past Helen will understand, but will Future Helen? Will there be some kind of magnificent light show and sonic boom of some sort?

If all goes correctly, they will never meet. PastHelen will live on much like FutureHelen lived her life up until 2011 and then PastHelen will go after PastAdam when he goes back in time to save Imogen from being abducted (and ending up dead) and curing her of lymphoma. At that moment, FutureHelen, who's 273 at that time will step in because PastHelen will go back to the Victorian Era much like FutureHelen did once upon a time. Then PastHelen will run into a younger/past version of herself and will do the same as FutureHelen did in this episode.




One question. Who is Spring-Heeled Jack? How did I not recognize him? :confused:

Apparently he's the first Sanctuary patient Helen and James brought in. He's probably already dead in the present so we never met him or he's been relocated to one of the other Sanctuaries. Google Spring Heeled Jack and you'll find the story.

[Kilgharrah]

Agam is a guest star this year.
What??? Why?

Apparently he's the first Sanctuary patient Helen and James brought in. He's probably already dead in the present so we never met him or he's been relocated to one of the other Sanctuaries. Google Spring Heeled Jack and you'll find the story.
That was the London Sanctuary. We never saw much of that. We only saw the abnormals of the Old city sanctuary.

[majorsal]

i'm posting my review before reading responses.


1- i can't see how our timeline helen can simply resume her life, step back into her life, when there already IS a helen living it. this episode is saying there are two helens now, so what's the older one supposed to do, come in and kill the other one off when she wants to resume her life?

2- adam's daughter still ended up dying, and adam is still blaiming helen (and james): so i think he'll *still* go nutso, have a split personality, live long, come up with a scheme to go back in time to save her life. the problem hasn't really been solved, it's just been recreated to happen all over again.

3- i'd accidently been spoiled for something BIG happening (visited a live journal and someone's post title gave it away), so...

i HATE the idea of helen living all those years again? why? because it ties back into my biggest fear for helen, of her being killed off at the end of the series. if this older helen does indeed stay away for a while and then comes back into 2011 to resume her life (won't go into my ^ #1 probs with that), then that would make helen 273 years old. if this really has happened, then i feel this is a set up for helen's death at the end of it all.

~~

so what did i think of the ep? BRILLIANT!!

everything about it was awesome! but especially... oh, amanda, what a fantastic actress you are!! :samanime51: even my mom kept remarking about her awesomeness (and prettiness :p)

if anyone ever doubted amanda's power as a lead actress, this would put those doubts to rest. to me, she's a top-notch actress that can carry ANY series!! [/fangirling]

[Altariel]

I don´t like the idea that Helen has to live all that again too. And it would be sad if they would kill her off, but I still hope they won´t do it.
Would you say what the spoiler is?

[Steff]

i'm posting my review before reading responses.


1- i can't see how our timeline helen can simply resume her life, step back into her life, when there already IS a helen living it. this episode is saying there are two helens now, so what's the older one supposed to do, come in and kill the other one off when she wants to resume her life?



I think I figured this one out. 113 year waiting Helen has to stay hidden until correct timeline Helen goes back in the past and can't return. Unless something different happens to keep Helen from going into the past then this will continue to loop. (Waiting Helen: What to do? What to do?)

[majorsal]

The original Helen lives her life through and becomes the Helen that goes back in the past. And when she goes into the past, the one that's been laying low will take her place. This would actually be better explained with a needle and thread. The only time in history when there will be two Helens is that 113 year period. No matter how you play it, before that there is only one Helen and after that there is only one Helen. Clear as mud?

good explanation.

so both helen's will go through an exceptionally long life now? like nearing 300?

[majorsal]

With her lifespan she will have lived more than just several lifetimes. If she was tired enough of it after the first time around, imagine how cranky she's gonna be the second time...I don't think she'll be so sane in the future. :)

if helen was able to freeze ashley's embryo, i'm sure she had some help coming up with that plan (and implementing it), so... if i were the future helen, i'd rather freeze myself for the long haul, then have to live it all over again.

like you said, chelle, helen was already showing signs of :S living it once through, but having to 'endure' it all again... i'd rather sleep through it. :p

[Kilgharrah]

I tried to calculate this.
I think each year equals four for her. So she lives four times normal people.
Example: she has the body of a 40 something year old, but she's actually 160 something which is four times her body age.
That means that if she lives to age of 100, that means she could reach the 400.
Makes sense?

[Altariel]

But then she would look with 270 years she is now old, over 50 years. I would like to think she is able to life longer than "only" 400 years.
Furthermore James didn´t notices that she looked any older when he saw her in Tempus.

@majorsal: I still would like to know what teh spoiler is you saw on the lifejournal side, I had to go to bed now and I can´t sleep without knowing it.

[Skydiver]

I dunno. Given the choice of reliving and not changing world events and taking a century off to learn, study, chill and dream, what would you do?

[Feast of the Muse]

good explanation.

so both helen's will go through an exceptionally long life now? like nearing 300?

Goodness I hope so. The next time we see Helen at the Sanctuary she'll be 270! What I don't think people are getting their heads around is that there really is only ONE Helen. There just happens to be two instances of her between 1898 and 2011.

As far as sitting back and watching the world unfold, I can't even begin to guess how she'll deal. She knows that things turn out relatively well (WWII, for example) so there isn't the temptation to change something like that, so why get involved? She might enjoy analyzing some of these things from an outside perspective, and she'll certainly learn more about a lot of things. I guess she'll go through it like anybody would - sometimes it's great, sometimes it's a drag.


I dunno. Given the choice of reliving and not changing world events and taking a century off to learn, study, chill and dream, what would you do?

I would learn as much as I could, particularly languages, and if I was her, even more about science and medicine.

I don't know if TPTB have realized it, but they've set up a huge opportunity to keep Ashley alive. And since Helen's future isn't written yet, keeping her daughter safe won't change the future much at all. I think she could totally justify it, especially since John and Tesla take out the Cabal shortly after Ashley's death. Why not move that up a bit?

[Kilgharrah]

But then she would look with 270 years she is now old, over 50 years. I would like to think she is able to life longer than "only" 400 years.
Furthermore James didn´t notices that she looked any older when he saw her in Tempus.
She would be 70 years old.
James loves her. He wouldn't notice. I don't remember, but someone did comment on that. Someone did notice. I don't remember. It was either spring-heeled Jack or Druitt.

[Kilgharrah]

Goodness I hope so. The next time we see Helen at the Sanctuary she'll be 270! What I don't think people are getting their heads around is that there really is only ONE Helen. There just happens to be two instances of her between 1898 and 2011.
Yeah, but things might have changed. If they have, past Helen would live a different life and would have a different personality.

[Altariel]

I think spring heeled jack notices a smell that he never knew and that she seemed a little older, but he was a abnormal, so who knows.

What do you mean she would be 70 years old? She lifes 113 years again that would be an aging of nearly 30 years if she ages 1 year all 4 years? Oh my head. Then she would indeed look like 70, but she doesn´t look like 70. Well.

[Kilgharrah]

She will look like 70, but she would in fact be 270 something

[majorsal]

The differences between our Helen and past Helen is played perfectly by Amanda, we see how much she has changed from the more 'innocent' time. What a surprise for John to see such a kick-ass Helen!

futurehelen's exchange with john was really powerful! but i think she prob changed the timeline badly there, b/c she very strongly warned john to stay away from her (scaring HIM :p), so what will that do to john, helen/john, and the timeline?




So now the confusing part....time travel oy ;) If future Helen comes back just after past Helen goes back, wouldn't that mean past Helen would do the same thing as future Helen and come back 113 years later? Still giving us 2 Helens :S

Yep time travel gives me a headache ;)

exactly. it's just some continuous loop. :S

[majorsal]

What?! All of Jack the Ripper's killings? Talk about letting your ex get off the hook easily, gee... :rolleyes:

but we've seen, john IS still a killer! unless this timeline change is going to totally erase everything we've seen up to this episode... oy! :S

[Altariel]

Probably this is a misunderstanding, but she has not the body of a 70 years old, AT has not the body of a 70 years old :-) I think the ratio of 1=4 is impossible.

[Kilgharrah]

With some make up she will have the body of a 70 year old, until the writers find something to get around this.
@majorsal, Actually, it's not confusing at all. If past Helen goes back in time and rejoins the life, just like the future Helen, there won't be 2 Helens. The past Helen would enter a new timeline where there is another past Helen. It's a different timeline, where things will happen again. Just a little differently.

[fems]

futurehelen's exchange with john was really powerful! but i think she prob changed the timeline badly there, b/c she very strongly warned john to stay away from her (scaring HIM :p), so what will that do to john, helen/john, and the timeline?


Considering Ashley was already conceived at the time, Helen and James suspected John was doing the killing and John threatened (and seemed kinda ready to actually kill FutureHelen) her, I doubt she and John were having a good relationship at the time. Even if he stays away, The Five will probably be called upon to get rid of Worth sometime in the future for PastHelen and PastJohn. Then, he'll do the same thing again, disappears and ends up at the Sanctuary demanding Helen's blood.

[siles]

I dunno. Given the choice of reliving and not changing world events and taking a century off to learn, study, chill and dream, what would you do?

I would definitely try to prevent the 2 world wars and the Holocaust...

[majorsal]

I don´t like the idea that Helen has to live all that again too. And it would be sad if they would kill her off, but I still hope they won´t do it.
Would you say what the spoiler is?

just some live journal title referring to something big having happened, so i ended up putting some things together...

[majorsal]

I tried to calculate this.
I think each year equals four for her. So she lives four times normal people.
Example: she has the body of a 40 something year old, but she's actually 160 something which is four times her body age.
That means that if she lives to age of 100, that means she could reach the 400.
Makes sense?

that math doesn't sound too horrible. (i just want ALIVE helen)

[majorsal]

I dunno. Given the choice of reliving and not changing world events and taking a century off to learn, study, chill and dream, what would you do?

i'd be bored to death. or wanting death :p

[majorsal]

She would be 70 years old.
James loves her. He wouldn't notice. I don't remember, but someone did comment on that. Someone did notice. I don't remember. It was either spring-heeled Jack or Druitt.

i think spring-heeled jack mentioned about her smelling older, much older (like he knew she wasn't normal for that timeline).

[Steff]

i'd be bored to death. or wanting death :p

How many years to wait for television, computer, internet.... How many books? Ok, lots of books does sound cool but for 113 years? And how will she get the books? Amazon.com? Plus she has to stay fit. NO OTHER PEOPLE would kill me.

[Kilgharrah]

How many years to wait for television, computer, internet.... How many books? Ok, lots of books does sound cool but for 113 years? And how will she get the books? Amazon.com? Plus she has to stay fit. NO OTHER PEOPLE would kill me.
She still has James to help her. They can stay in touch. He could get her what she wants. Afterall she has no money.

[RealmOfX]

futurehelen's exchange with john was really powerful! but i think she prob changed the timeline badly there, b/c she very strongly warned john to stay away from her (scaring HIM :p), so what will that do to john, helen/john, and the timeline?

I guess we find out next week and during the rest of the season.


exactly. it's just some continuous loop. :S

Actually it's not, though it will look like an endless loop if you only look at the period 1898 to 2011. If you look at the longer time line you'll see see Helen born in 1850 (I think) and live through to 2011 then jumpback in time for 1 loop then proceed to live past 2011. There's only one Helen but due to time travelling there are two instances of her for a period.

[fems]

What totally didn't surprise me was how much I enjoyed all the characters in it. Now I kind of dread next week's episode because I'm still not a huge fan of Will and Kate even less... if there's no Magnus I'll probably be bored to tears.

[Kilgharrah]

The Victorian era is awesome. I like it when they show us the victorian time of Sanctuary.
@fems, yeah, finally an episode without Will. I hate that guy.

[Feast of the Muse]

I thought PastHelen might have actually been pregnant at this point. The first time we see her she walks in with her hand on her stomach, which might indicate she's not feeling all that well ('morning' sickness or has realized she's pregnant) and it seemed like there could have been a small bump. It could have been part of the wardrobe but OriginalHelen, presumably wearing PastHelen's clothes, didn't seem to have it... It also seemed like PastHelen was checking out which clothes would fit her better when she checked her closet (with OriginalHelen around the corner).

With John threatening her the way he did (after which she again cradled her stomach and walked off), it wouldn't be that far-fetched of her to think it might be better to freeze the embryo and carry it to terms once John is gone, having died a natural death or something.

I also believe John is still JtR and that SHJ did the more recent killings, as OriginalHelen suggested. However, I find it strange to think that everyone would have known about John's previous killings and still accept him in some way. If not and Helen was still hunting him, then how could she have gotten pregnant?


Gonna have to disagree with you on this one, fems. I very much want to see how AT plays a pregnant Helen (I wanna see how much the claws come out!) but I'm pretty sure this wasn't it. I don't know why, but my instincts all tell me she got pregnant about the time John started with the Ripper killings. I'd like to think she had more sense than to be intimate with him once she realized what he was capable of, and I don't want to consider any alternate theories on that (like her not being willing). Pretty sure that she put Ashley in cold storage as soon as possible after she found out, so I don't think we'll ever see her showing back in the Victorian era. (But of course, I am not writing the show!)

Also, the Helen we saw was 48. I had to do the math because she seemed soooo young! She's so demure compared to our local-era Helen. But anyway, she was much younger when she was with John in a trusting relationship. I paid close attention during both broadcasts, and didn't see her actions as being bun-in-the-oven related. She had been dealt an emotional blow below the belt by her former lover. She might even have thought she was going to wretch there for a minute. If she was pregnant by John at that point, I'd have to say she'd had a serious lapse in judgement. But then, Helen plays by her own rules...

As for the bump, yes, I saw it too. Not sure if that was just the style of dress or what, but Future!Helen definitely had a different silhouette. That was why I paid attention. There was a bump, but I don't think it was Ashley. But then, who's to say she was only pregnant once? I do wonder if a 48 year old single woman being pregnant was a huge scandal back then, and if she'd care?

[KayLyne]

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one, fems. I very much want to see how AT plays a pregnant Helen (I wanna see how much the claws come out!) but I'm pretty sure this wasn't it. I don't know why, but my instincts all tell me she got pregnant about the time John started with the Ripper killings. I'd like to think she had more sense than to be intimate with him once she realized what he was capable of, and I don't want to consider any alternate theories on that (like her not being willing). Pretty sure that she put Ashley in cold storage as soon as possible after she found out, so I don't think we'll ever see her showing back in the Victorian era. (But of course, I am not writing the show!)

Also, the Helen we saw was 48. I had to do the math because she seemed soooo young! She's so demure compared to our local-era Helen. But anyway, she was much younger when she was with John in a trusting relationship. I paid close attention during both broadcasts, and didn't see her actions as being bun-in-the-oven related. She had been dealt an emotional blow below the belt by her former lover. She might even have thought she was going to wretch there for a minute. If she was pregnant by John at that point, I'd have to say she'd had a serious lapse in judgement. But then, Helen plays by her own rules...

As for the bump, yes, I saw it too. Not sure if that was just the style of dress or what, but Future!Helen definitely had a different silhouette. That was why I paid attention. There was a bump, but I don't think it was Ashley. But then, who's to say she was only pregnant once? I do wonder if a 48 year old single woman being pregnant was a huge scandal back then, and if she'd care?

Now that I think about it - didn't we see in the first Victorian-era flashbacks in the pilot (when Helen is a tad late shooting John before he kills the hooker) John tells the lady Helen is his EX-fiancee? Thus, I can't imagine Helen would have gone back to him anytime after she discovered what he had done, so she would have needed to be pregnant before 1888 (ten years before this episode takes place). However, we do know how strong her attraction to him is - even after a century (think: the sweet scene as she lays with him in For King & Country.) It's also possible that he forced himself on her during this episode's timeline, since we see here that she's not able to stand up to him at this point, like we're used to seeing with present-day Helen.

[Starscape91]

I really enjoyed watching this episode the interactions between Future Helen and Watson were funny because it looked like he thought she went insane in the beginning. I think Helen kind of changed the future or she realized that she was ment to go back to the past during the confrontation with John and Past Helen. The reason for this is when John was yelling at Past Helen she was reaching in the drawer for her guns, but they weren't there because Future Helen took them in order to hunt for Future Adam. So maybe Past Helen was supposed to scare him off at gun point or Future Helen was really ment to come to the past and she scares him off with her confronting him in the alley.

I really think that she was going to kill Imogen herself if Future Adam hadn't killed her first on accident in order to preserve the timeline. The whole suicide thing at the end was probably because of all the death she has experienced lately and the fact that she was willing to kill a young girl earlier really shook her up. Now that she has all this time to do whatever she wants I think she will take a vacation for a little while, but end up preparing for the war between abnormals and humans. And also build up more money for the Sanctuary because she intends to break off from the governments of other countries and have them work on their own. In the end I don't think she will save Ashley because how can she justify saving Ashleys life while willing to kill Imogen in order to preserve the timeline.

[blueray]

i'm a believer in whh (whatever happened happened), so as much as present-helen would want to save ashley she couldn't without messing up her own timeline. plus to do so would be a risk of getting caught.

[majorsal]

i'm a believer in whh (whatever happened happened), so as much as present-helen would want to save ashley she couldn't without messing up her own timeline. plus to do so would be a risk of getting caught.

futurehelen could resurface at ashley's death, but find a way of getting ashley out of there in some magic-like way (and not let current helen know or see it), and then... just let ashley start over somewhere, safe and sound and be able to live a normal life.

yes, current helen would still suffer greatly, but furturehelen would know that 'their' daughter lived and was able to have a great life. even if it was away and without her.

[lillypilly]

I tried to calculate this.
I think each year equals four for her. So she lives four times normal people.
Example: she has the body of a 40 something year old, but she's actually 160 something which is four times her body age.
That means that if she lives to age of 100, that means she could reach the 400.
Makes sense?

That doesn't really work. You're counting as if she was born with longevity, which she wasn't.

She was injected with the source blood at age 38 (I believe she was born in 1850, right? And then source blood in 1888?) So from 1888 to 2011 she's only aged, at most, a few years. Say four or five. (They do try to make her appear a little younger in flashbacks to the Oxford days, I think, using makeup and lighting, but it's definitely not a huge difference. I would say 2011 Helen looks early-forties-ish.)

If we say that, physically, 2011 Helen has aged about four years in the past 123, then in the 113 years she spends re-living time (1898-2011) she'll only age about the same amount, actually a bit less. Another four years older at most, which would take her to mid-forties as opposed to early-forties. So not really a big difference in appearance at all!

[Steff]

All this discussion about rather Helen would save Ashley has me teary. I think I have to go watch those last episodes with Ashley and have a good cry. Poor, poor Helen.

[Altariel]

That doesn't really work. You're counting as if she was born with longevity, which she wasn't.

She was injected with the source blood at age 38 (I believe she was born in 1850, right? And then source blood in 1888?) So from 1888 to 2011 she's only aged, at most, a few years. Say four or five. (They do try to make her appear a little younger in flashbacks to the Oxford days, I think, using makeup and lighting, but it's definitely not a huge difference. I would say 2011 Helen looks early-forties-ish.)

If we say that, physically, 2011 Helen has aged about four years in the past 123, then in the 113 years she spends re-living time (1898-2011) she'll only age about the same amount, actually a bit less. Another four years older at most, which would take her to mid-forties as opposed to early-forties. So not really a big difference in appearance at all!

(Is it canon that the injection with the source blood was in 1888?)

Thats what I´m saying, thank you lillypilly. Exactly she was not born with the increased lifespan. I thought she was ca. 30 or 35 years old whe they injected themself with the sourceblood, from wich point 130 years would mean an an aging ratio of 1=4 a little bit more than 30 years in appearance. So the 30 normal aged years before the injection and 30 slow aged years after the i. would have made her appeared already 60 years old in season 3.

I think till 2011 she aged only a few years, no one ever said she looked older. Infact I remember james saying that she still looks like in the late 1880´s and Tesla said nothing too. In Tempus young Adam and John didn´t noticed anything. I think the 113 years won´t change her dramatically, maybe 3 or 4 years. Furthermore we saw the older Helen already in the trailer and not really changed.

[lillypilly]

(Is it canon that the injection with the source blood was in 1888?)

Well, we know Helen is 160 in 2010/11, so she must have been born around 1850, making her 38 in 1888. That date, 1888, is used by most people, can't remember if it's ever been confirmed in canon. It's the year of the ripper murders, so the source blood experiment must have been that year, or at least close to it.

But anyway, yeah, so basically if she's only aged a couple of years in the time since the source blood, then living almost the same amount of time over again will only age her at most a couple of years more. Her total lifespan going from that could be a few thousand years!

[Feast of the Muse]

Well, we know Helen is 160 in 2010/11, so she must have been born around 1850, making her 38 in 1888. That date, 1888, is used by most people, can't remember if it's ever been confirmed in canon. It's the year of the ripper murders, so the source blood experiment must have been that year, or at least close to it.

But anyway, yeah, so basically if she's only aged a couple of years in the time since the source blood, then living almost the same amount of time over again will only age her at most a couple of years more. Her total lifespan going from that could be a few thousand years!

Helen's birthday is August 28, 1850. That is canon.

I just realized, duh, yes the Ripper murders only lasted a few months in 1888. I want more details about how John was her 'patient' as he said when he proposed to her in the carriage. Surely that was before the murders, or she wouldn't have agreed to marry him. If the source blood was injected before that in 1888, that means Ashley was conceived in that year, between the two events. I've been trying to nail that down for a while. I won't hold my breath on getting any canon backup on that, though.

[Altariel]

But it is not said that the energy creature "entered" John in the same year, it could have been a few years later. So the injection could have been 1885 but he would "meet"the creature just 3 years later. Dunno

[lillypilly]

That's true... The timeline is so vague around then, we don't know when or how the Five met, how long they were together before the source blood, when exactly in there Helen and John got engaged - none of it!

I guess I've just seen 1888 used so often for the source blood I just accept it. :o

[Feast of the Muse]

Oh, good point. I always think the creature came almost as soon as the source blood injection. Perhaps they actually had a few years of love and peace before JtR... which goes a long way with me to explaining why Helen still loves him so much.

[lillypilly]

Thinking about it just now... In the source blood injection scene, I always saw the way John and Helen touched and looked at each other to mean they were officially together by then (courting, I guess you'd say). How long would they have been courting, or engaged, before getting married? A year or two maybe? So the source blood can't have been too long before 1888, or they would have been married already by the time the ripper murders started and everything fell apart.

ETA: Unless Helen wanted a reeeally long engagement. Maybe she was too busy running around catching abnormals to bother getting married. :D

[Kilgharrah]

That doesn't really work. You're counting as if she was born with longevity, which she wasn't.

She was injected with the source blood at age 38 (I believe she was born in 1850, right? And then source blood in 1888?) So from 1888 to 2011 she's only aged, at most, a few years. Say four or five. (They do try to make her appear a little younger in flashbacks to the Oxford days, I think, using makeup and lighting, but it's definitely not a huge difference. I would say 2011 Helen looks early-forties-ish.)

If we say that, physically, 2011 Helen has aged about four years in the past 123, then in the 113 years she spends re-living time (1898-2011) she'll only age about the same amount, actually a bit less. Another four years older at most, which would take her to mid-forties as opposed to early-forties. So not really a big difference in appearance at all!
Both Helen and Gregory had longetivity when injected with the source blood, which means it's something genetic. The source blood only activated it. They had a trace of longetivity which means she still was an abnormal in some way. She still wasn't aging in the normal way.

[Altariel]

If she really was already 38 or maybe 37 then she aged in 123 years maybe 3 or 4 years! 2011 Helen looks like she was 40-43. (I think she even looks younger, maybe 30, but I think Helen is supposed to look like she is 40, is that right, I think Amanda looks way younger than she is.)

You really made a point, if the event with source blood would have been in 1880 they would, when the ripper killings began already have been married. So it is save to assume that she was 38 when she began slowly to age and until 2011 she aged 4 years. So the Helen who traveled back would age maybe three years in 113 years when she aged 4 in 123. Does that make sense? OK I saw lillypilly just said the same but two are better than one.

Huh, Gregory was too injected with the source blood? Did I miss something again? :-)

[lillypilly]

The Praxians gave Gregory and Adam their longevity, right? (Lol, they just give the stuff away like candy, apparently, no big deal!)

I'm not sure what you mean, PrometheOSS -- where has it ever been said that Helen was anything other than a normal human before the source blood? Helen was 38 in 1888, and looked it. The only one of the Five who had a genetic predisposition that was activated by the source blood was Nikola, as far as I know.

[kes]

It was played by Fraser Aitcheson.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1568712/
Got that info from: http://www.tv.com/shows/sanctuary/tempus-1400102/

No. IMDB is wrong. He's one of the refugees from Hollow Earth.

[Kilgharrah]

The Praxians gave Gregory and Adam their longevity, right? (Lol, they just give the stuff away like candy, apparently, no big deal!)

I'm not sure what you mean, PrometheOSS -- where has it ever been said that Helen was anything other than a normal human before the source blood? Helen was 38 in 1888, and looked it. The only one of the Five who had a genetic predisposition that was activated by the source blood was Nikola, as far as I know.
They all had genetic predisposition. Why else would each one get a unique ability?
Gregory and Maguns had a longetivity genetic predisposition. Think about the time when Gregory left the sanctuary for the first time. He was supposed to be long dead by then. By then, he hadn't been to Praxis yet. That means he already had it.

No. IMDB is wrong. He's one of the refugees from Hollow Earth.
I didn't get the info from IMDB. I got it from TV.com I just posted the link to his IMDB page, but I got the info from TV.com which is the second link.
Maybe he played both.

[Inquisitor]

They all had genetic predisposition. Why else would each one get a unique ability?
Gregory and Maguns had a longetivity genetic predisposition. Think about the time when Gregory left the sanctuary for the first time. He was supposed to be long dead by then. By then, he hadn't been to Praxis yet. That means he already had it.

Gregory was frozen by the Cabal.

[Kilgharrah]

Gregory was frozen by the Cabal.
That was just a specualtion, but this has been proven invalid later.

[kes]

They all had genetic predisposition. Why else would each one get a unique ability?
Gregory and Maguns had a longetivity genetic predisposition. Think about the time when Gregory left the sanctuary for the first time. He was supposed to be long dead by then. By then, he hadn't been to Praxis yet. That means he already had it.
Gregory's timeline is also a mess lol but they never said he took the blood. So untill they do is longevity is Praxian, not blood, related.

Worth is still alive because he was killed and put in stasis in Praxis. Will gives us a timelive in Pax Romana if I'm not mistaken.


I didn't get the info from IMDB. I got it from TV.com I just posted the link to his IMDB page, but I got the info from TV.com which is the second link.
Maybe he played both. Ah ok, but I dont think it was him. Face is too skinny even with make up.

[Kilgharrah]

Gregory's timeline is also a mess lol but they never said he took the blood. So untill they do is longevity is Praxian, not blood, related.
They are doing this intentionally, BTW.
Maybe there's keeping it for a huge event later. Who knows!!!

[kes]

They are doing this intentionally, BTW.
Maybe there's keeping it for a huge event later. Who knows!!!

Could be.

[fems]

Gonna have to disagree with you on this one, fems. I very much want to see how AT plays a pregnant Helen (I wanna see how much the claws come out!) but I'm pretty sure this wasn't it. I don't know why, but my instincts all tell me she got pregnant about the time John started with the Ripper killings. I'd like to think she had more sense than to be intimate with him once she realized what he was capable of, and I don't want to consider any alternate theories on that (like her not being willing). Pretty sure that she put Ashley in cold storage as soon as possible after she found out, so I don't think we'll ever see her showing back in the Victorian era. (But of course, I am not writing the show!)

Also, the Helen we saw was 48. I had to do the math because she seemed soooo young! She's so demure compared to our local-era Helen. But anyway, she was much younger when she was with John in a trusting relationship. I paid close attention during both broadcasts, and didn't see her actions as being bun-in-the-oven related. She had been dealt an emotional blow below the belt by her former lover. She might even have thought she was going to wretch there for a minute. If she was pregnant by John at that point, I'd have to say she'd had a serious lapse in judgement. But then, Helen plays by her own rules...

As for the bump, yes, I saw it too. Not sure if that was just the style of dress or what, but Future!Helen definitely had a different silhouette. That was why I paid attention. There was a bump, but I don't think it was Ashley. But then, who's to say she was only pregnant once? I do wonder if a 48 year old single woman being pregnant was a huge scandal back then, and if she'd care?

I thought I'd already corrected myself in an earlier post? Anyway, after posting that bump-theory I realized if it was 1898 there was no way for her to be pregnant at the time because Magnus said she kept the embryo frozen for over a century. So, it's simply not possible since Ashley was 23 in 2009. She had to have been conceived around 1886 or even earlier. Which makes the following discussion very interesting...


Now that I think about it - didn't we see in the first Victorian-era flashbacks in the pilot (when Helen is a tad late shooting John before he kills the hooker) John tells the lady Helen is his EX-fiancee? Thus, I can't imagine Helen would have gone back to him anytime after she discovered what he had done, so she would have needed to be pregnant before 1888 (ten years before this episode takes place). However, we do know how strong her attraction to him is - even after a century (think: the sweet scene as she lays with him in For King & Country.) It's also possible that he forced himself on her during this episode's timeline, since we see here that she's not able to stand up to him at this point, like we're used to seeing with present-day Helen.

Yeah, had to be pregnant before 1888 and considering the way Magnus reacts to John I find it hard to believe he had once upon a time forced himself upon her, aka raped her. That simply clashes with how she reacts to him in the present (especially in For King and Country). I also believe it would have made PastHelen react more aggressive towards him if he'd violated her before, possibly have screamed for James or one of her butlers when she realized the gun was gone.


Helen's birthday is August 28, 1850. That is canon.

Actually, I thought it was August 27, 1850? If I'm not mistaken AT (and co) picked the date randomly as it was a day before her own birthday which they were celebrating. So it's not really canon if it was off screen, is it?


I just realized, duh, yes the Ripper murders only lasted a few months in 1888. I want more details about how John was her 'patient' as he said when he proposed to her in the carriage. Surely that was before the murders, or she wouldn't have agreed to marry him. If the source blood was injected before that in 1888, that means Ashley was conceived in that year, between the two events. I've been trying to nail that down for a while. I won't hold my breath on getting any canon backup on that, though.

Yes, the patient-thing bothers me too. She's an MD not a psychiatrist, right? Why could he have been a patient of hers, her first actually IIRC. Unless she called him her patient because she was helping him adjust to his new powers... I believe that's what she did with the boys, isn't it?

I already calculated Ashley had to have been conceived prior to 1886 to have been kept frozen "for over a century", which makes the 1888 timing very strange. Are we sure that's when John proposed? Because that would mean they had even gone more unVictorian by having sexual intercourse before getting even engaged! It would explain why she's willing to inject herself with the source blood if she isn't carrying a baby at that time, although I always assumed that Helen chose to freeze Ashley because of her gift and John's killings. Unless John was really getting counseling or something from her, already showing a taste for violence which could explain why she didn't want to have his baby yet... However, if Helen chose to freeze the embryo and John was either aware of it (maybe helped her choose) or he suspected something, it would explain how he knew Ashley was his in 2009. They hadn't seen each other in over 60 years and he just knew she was his?

Thinking about all this makes me wonder how and when Helen (and the others) discovered she had the gift of longevity... it's not like you would know right away. It could easily be seen as aging slowly for the first decade or so, especially if her mother also didn't look her age.


Oh, good point. I always think the creature came almost as soon as the source blood injection. Perhaps they actually had a few years of love and peace before JtR... which goes a long way with me to explaining why Helen still loves him so much.

Perhaps if the source blood injection had been closer to the date Ashley should have been conceived... although the killings probably shouldn't have come years after the injection or they wouldn't be able to blame his new gift for it.


Gregory was frozen by the Cabal.

It's what they assumed in the beginning, but he'd gone missing during an expedition and ended up in Hollow Earth. He must have been searching for it or at least know of its existence or he wouldn't have been able to give Helen those birthday gifts which led them to Hollow Earth. And he said he'd spent 60 years or so in Praxis, so...


That was just a specualtion, but this has been proven invalid later.

Yeah, it was hinted at in a commentary in season one, but later retconned with Gregory explaining he'd been living in Praxis for decades and got to his advanced age like that...

You know, all this advanced medicine and most of The Five living as long as Helen (well, before the end of this ep anyway) either with or without her help (or blood) makes her gift of longevity seem really lame. She really isn't so special anymore... Although she'll probably have 113 years of life experience over them once she returns, but still.

[Kilgharrah]

Yes, the patient-thing bothers me too. She's an MD not a psychiatrist, right? Why could he have been a patient of hers, her first actually IIRC. Unless she called him her patient because she was helping him adjust to his new powers... I believe that's what she did with the boys, isn't it?
She came to her every once in a while "as a patient" so that she would inject him with her blood, which helps him adjust. That's what I understood back in season 1.


Yeah, it was hinted at in a commentary in season one, but later retconned with Gregory explaining he'd been living in Praxis for decades and got to his advanced age like that...

You know, all this advanced medicine and most of The Five living as long as Helen (well, before the end of this ep anyway) either with or without her help (or blood) makes her gift of longevity seem really lame. She really isn't so special anymore... Although she'll probably have 113 years of life experience over them once she returns, but still.
Look at Adam. He looks old, while Helen doesn't even though she's older than him. He was a student at the university when they were professors, but still Adam looks older than Helen, so I guess the Praxian way is not as good as Helen's. I guess the Praxian way gives a long lifespan, but not as long as Helen's and when Helen injects someone with her blood, they do get longetivity for a short time until they need more of her. I think she only did it to keep the five alongside her. She wouldn't want to live alone. Even though it didn't work on Nigel and wasn't as good with Watson. The most significant effect was observed on John. I think that could be because she gave him more or maybe that's why he was her patient. She might have been studying him and why it had that effect on him and only him.

[fems]

She came to her every once in a while "as a patient" so that she would inject him with her blood, which helps him adjust. That's what I understood back in season 1.

I assume you mean he came to her? I don't think injecting him with her blood would have helped him adjust... Didn't she once say she feared she was responsible for his madness because of her blood? Anyway, if he did come to her at that time for her blood or just counseling, it would suggest that they'd gotten engaged after the source blood.



Look at Adam. He looks old, while Helen doesn't even though she's older than him. He was a student at the university when they were professors, but still Adam looks older than Helen, so I guess the Praxian way is not as good as Helen's. I guess the Praxian way gives a long lifespan, but not as long as Helen's and when Helen injects someone with her blood, they do get longetivity for a short time until they need more of her. I think she only did it to keep the five alongside her. She wouldn't want to live alone. Even though it didn't work on Nigel and wasn't as good with Watson. The most significant effect was observed on John. I think that could be because she gave him more or maybe that's why he was her patient. She might have been studying him and why it had that effect on him and only him.

Um, no. They were all students at Oxford, not professors. It's even a question of whether Helen was a real student at the time, considering women weren't allowed to go to the university at that time and when women were finally allowed it wasn't immediately in those areas (rather more feminine subjects). I'd say Adam looked to be in his early/mid forties while Helen looked to be in her mid-thirties at the time. Adam's age would probably fit with having a daughter in her teens like Imogen at that time, assuming his wife was younger when they got married.

[RealmOfX]

Sorry but you are really reaching here with your "logic". Especially when you are basing some of it on looks. The looks belong to the actors, makeup does wonders but the looks are essentially the actors not the characters.

All we have from canon is that Helen ages very slowly and that Watson said she hadn't aged a bit since the 1800's. There's nothing solid to base any extrapolating logic as to how slow in years the aging really is.

[Kilgharrah]

I assume you mean he came to her? I don't think injecting him with her blood would have helped him adjust... Didn't she once say she feared she was responsible for his madness because of her blood? Anyway, if he did come to her at that time for her blood or just counseling, it would suggest that they'd gotten engaged after the source blood.
Now that you mention it. I think she was studying him to see what caused the sudden change of behavior (That was later found out to be the electrical entity inside him).


Um, no. They were all students at Oxford, not professors. It's even a question of whether Helen was a real student at the time, considering women weren't allowed to go to the university at that time and when women were finally allowed it wasn't immediately in those areas (rather more feminine subjects). I'd say Adam looked to be in his early/mid forties while Helen looked to be in her mid-thirties at the time. Adam's age would probably fit with having a daughter in her teens like Imogen at that time, assuming his wife was younger when they got married.
OK, you are right that they were all students, but not sure Adam's older. There's no proof for that. A teenage daughter is not a proof. He could have gotten married early.

[Kilgharrah]

Sorry but you are really reaching here with your "logic". Especially when you are basing some of it on looks. The looks belong to the actors, makeup does wonders but the looks are essentially the actors not the characters.
Actors are not chosen randomly. There are physical criteria for that. They don't just take anyone because they are good or famous. Believe me, I would know that.

[Chelle DB]

From how I understand it - by this time, 1898, Druitt was done with the "Ripper" killings. and it was Spring-Heeled Jack that did this last one, but past-Helen and James were still blaming Druitt for it, so that's why he got mad at past-Helen in her house because they were still blaming him for something he didn't do. That's why present-Helen steered James to look towards the "abnormals" instead of Druitt for that last one.
Good grief, I think I even confused myself on that explanation.
Actually, that makes complete sense to me. :)

No, they don't merge. There is really only one Helen Magnus however due to the time travelling there are two instances of her in the same time line for a period of time.
For the visually inclined imagine a piece of string that has been looped once - it is one piece of string but if you were to look only at the part where it loops it appears there are two strings. Same concept.
Yeah I can't wait for next week either, who am I kidding? I can't wait for the rest of the season! :D So much story potential!
If I'm correct, there is only one Helen Magnus in the timelines before she went back and after she went back...so for 113 years there will always be 2 Helens in the same timeline...so if anything should ever happen to one of the Helen's then time will be altered irrecoverably...and lets face it, the odds of something happening to either Helen increases all the time...oi! :eek:

Yep time travel gives me a headache ;)
*passes Mandy an Advil* My head hurts too. :P

If my calculations are correct, her age would correspond to approx. 70 years old. That is old. She has longetivity, but she will eventually die. She is taking off of those years as if she's immortal. She's not. I can't imagine how someone can live alone and away for those they know for 113. I would die of boredom, if I were her. At least on the first time, she had the people she knew alongside her. Some of them did die, but still, she had some of them.
I don't think she will actually live alone per se but rather undercover if you will...she'll lay low but I can't imagine her being so isolated that she is alone. I think she'll find a way to intergrate herself into society without it impinging on the other Helens destiny...if that makes sense. :)

I have to say I really really loved this episode & how it kept me on the edge of my seat almost the entire time. (I'm beginning to dislike the word "time" :P)
I loved James...he was amazingly brilliant throughout the whole ep...Peter Wingfield is super amazing! :D
I actually was a bit miffed when he told Helen to make her own way home after she confronted past Adam...great scene. :)
The Druitt scene was awesome but I was a bit surprised at how past Helen reacted given how strong she seemed in the webisodes when she said "this stops here"...after all this scene takes place years after John committed his crimes as JtR.
Poor Imogene...seemes the poor girl was destined to die though we all knew that. Poor Adam for being so dillusional and grief stricken.
Love the whole Spring-heeled Jack twist...very cool...and if you look it up on Wikipedia, they'e already added the Sanctuary ep to the list of mentions. :P
I'm still not so sure about this whole time travel thing and Helen having to live 113 years away from her time...it just opens everything up to being destroyed.
The fight scene between Helen & Druitt was cool...aesthetically speaking...but I wonder how this will change her future relationshipp with John & vice versa.

I really loved this ep. The Sanctuary team just keep raising the proverbial bar...so much so that I swear they've hit the stratasphere. :)
As for it being the best ep ever...I don't know...it's close, very very close, but I'm not convinced yet. :) Probably coz my head hurst from all this time team travel talk. :P

[fems]

OK, you are right that they were all students, but not sure Adam's older. There's no proof for that. A teenage daughter is not a proof. He could have gotten married early.

So it's okay for you to use the actors' appearances to guesstimate how old Helen is and how slow she ages but it's not okay for me to use Ian Tracey's appearance to estimate Adam's age? :P

Adam looks older than Helen simply because of his skin, wrinkles and overall appearance. Ian Tracey is also a year older than AT.


ETA:



If I'm correct, there is only one Helen Magnus in the timelines before she went back and after she went back...so for 113 years there will always be 2 Helens in the same timeline...so if anything should ever happen to one of the Helen's then time will be altered irrecoverably...and lets face it, the odds of something happening to either Helen increases all the time...oi! :eek:

Well, if all goes as it should be, nothing is supposed to happen to PastHelen (nothing that results in her dying anyway).




I don't think she will actually live alone per se but rather undercover if you will...she'll lay low but I can't imagine her being so isolated that she is alone. I think she'll find a way to intergrate herself into society without it impinging on the other Helens destiny...if that makes sense. :)

The thing is, FutureHelen has to stay low. It's not that she has to remain in isolation, but she can't affect other people's lives too much because it could alter the course of history. If she were to save someone's life, they could do something that was never supposed to happen. Same for ending someone's life; something that was supposed to happen never will.

All in all, that also means she can't really make any friendships and besides a one-night stand or something, she couldn't really get romantically involved with anyone either.




I loved James...he was amazingly brilliant throughout the whole ep...Peter Wingfield is super amazing! :D
I actually was a bit miffed when he told Helen to make her own way home after she confronted past Adam...great scene. :)

So was Helen! :P



The Druitt scene was awesome but I was a bit surprised at how past Helen reacted given how strong she seemed in the webisodes when she said "this stops here"...after all this scene takes place years after John committed his crimes as JtR.

I think the difference here is that he really turned on her and actually threatened to kill her, even cornering her and placing his knife against her. I don't think she'd ever expected him to do that, not after all they'd been through. Not to mention that she still thinks he's been killing again in a very grotesque manner (perhaps even worse than his actual Ripper killings) here.

[Kilgharrah]

So it's okay for you to use the actors' appearances to guesstimate how old Helen is and how slow she ages but it's not okay for me to use Ian Tracey's appearance to estimate Adam's age? :P

Adam looks older than Helen simply because of his skin, wrinkles and overall appearance. Ian Tracey is also a year older than AT.
I never said that. Actually that strengthens my theory. Adam looks way older than Helen even though almost the same. Age doesn't appear on her, which is an advantage over he praxian way of longetivity.

[fems]

I never said that. Actually that strengthens my theory. Adam looks way older than Helen even though almost the same. Age doesn't appear on her, which is an advantage over he praxian way of longetivity.

You implied it by saying there was no proof for me thinking Adam was older than Helen. I based my statement on the appearances of Helen and Adam from their time at Oxford. At that time The Five hadn't injected themselves with the source blood yet, therefore Adam would be older than Helen (if you look at their appearances). That has nothing to do with longevity or Praxian technology.

[Kilgharrah]

You implied it by saying there was no proof for me thinking Adam was older than Helen. I based my statement on the appearances of Helen and Adam from their time at Oxford. At that time The Five hadn't injected themselves with the source blood yet, therefore Adam would be older than Helen (if you look at their appearances). That has nothing to do with longevity or Praxian technology.
I thought you got it from somewhere. I didn't know you based it on appearances.
Actually I was referreing to the futureAdam that went back in time. That's the one that looks older than Helen(FutureHelen).
Actually, this has to do with longetivity and praxian technology. Isn't that why we started that discussion in the first place?

[Chelle DB]

Well, if all goes as it should be, nothing is supposed to happen to PastHelen (nothing that results in her dying anyway).
But that's just the problem with time travel...no one wants anything to happen but sometimes it does...trying to prevent it from happening is easier said than done as Helen & Adam already proved.
The thing is, FutureHelen has to stay low. It's not that she has to remain in isolation, but she can't affect other people's lives too much because it could alter the course of history. If she were to save someone's life, they could do something that was never supposed to happen. Same for ending someone's life; something that was supposed to happen never will.
All in all, that also means she can't really make any friendships and besides a one-night stand or something, she couldn't really get romantically involved with anyone either.
I know she has to stay low but I also think it's highly plausible & possible for her to still make friends but perhaps under a different alias. The hiccup would be if she had a relationship with someone & a baby resulted in it :eek: *shudders* *not that I would want to deprive her of anything but...*...but this is where Helen has to be careful...she needn't have to sacrifice friendships entirely but she has to be very very careful with whatever she does. Even if she remained completely isolated, that would still have an affect on the future time line...what kind of person will she have become by the time she reaches her future?
So was Helen! :P
I know!! :D I think a lot of us must have had the same reaction as Helen did to James' abruptness. :P
I think the difference here is that he really turned on her and actually threatened to kill her, even cornering her and placing his knife against her. I don't think she'd ever expected him to do that, not after all they'd been through. Not to mention that she still thinks he's been killing again in a very grotesque manner (perhaps even worse than his actual Ripper killings) here.
So does that mean the time line had changed because of how Druitt had behaved at that moment? I'm confused. Because in Haunted & other eps, John had still been the love of Helen's life...she still held a torch for him...especially when you see scenes like the one where she finds him in Cambodia & snuggles next to him. If he was such a "bugger" back then, did she truly hate him, was she afraid of him, did he actually threaten her in the original time line, does she still love him in the future as she had before she went back in time????
Oi...Damian really has my head warped with this one. :P

[parsifal]

Anyone know who plays Spring-Heel (Spring-Heeled) Jack? I'm getting such a Robin Dunne vibe from him.

Gillian Horvath hinted that it was indeed Robin Dunne.

[fems]

I thought you got it from somewhere. I didn't know you based it on appearances.

No, I specifically used "I'd say Adam looked to be...", with which I was conveying my opinion and observation of the characters.



Actually I was referreing to the futureAdam that went back in time. That's the one that looks older than Helen(FutureHelen).
Actually, this has to do with longetivity and praxian technology. Isn't that why we started that discussion in the first place?

No, you said:


Look at Adam. He looks old, while Helen doesn't even though she's older than him. He was a student at the university when they were professors, but still Adam looks older than Helen, so I guess the Praxian way is not as good as Helen's.

Here you stated that Helen is older than him. We don't know that, considering she got the gift of longevity and he
used Praxian technology to extend his life and since they meet up in 2011, the age difference between them should still be the same as before they used the source blood/Praxian technology. Then you theorized about the differences of Helen's longevity and the Praxian longevity based on their appearances and age difference.

Since we don't know how old everyone was in 1888 or in 2011 it would be best to estimated their age while they were at Oxford, prior to The Five injecting themselves with source blood.

Then I corrected you about Adam being a student while The Five were professors, which again puts them at equal footing in regards to age. They were all students and with Helen probably only being allowed to attend classes without being an official student due to her being a woman and the ages of the rest of The Five unknown, there's no way to say who's older, Helen or Adam. Therefore I compared the looks of Adam and Helen while they were at Oxford prior to messing with their natural age.

Then you said:




OK, you are right that they were all students, but not sure Adam's older. There's no proof for that. A teenage daughter is not a proof. He could have gotten married early.


Actors are not chosen randomly. There are physical criteria for that. They don't just take anyone because they are good or famous. Believe me, I would know that.


Which is a bit contradictory considering all we can estimate their ages on is their physical appearance. But with you dismissing my suggestion about their age, you implied that their physical appearance didn't matter. Then, you again make assumptions about Helen's longevity vs. Praxian technology. That's why I again commented about using Adam and Helen's physical appearance during their Oxford days, where their age would have nothing to do with longevity or Praxian technology.


So in short, the reason we started discussing this was the ages of Adam and Helen and your assumptions about longevity versus Praxian technology. I didn't agree with that therefore I used arguments to explain myself.





So does that mean the time line had changed because of how Druitt had behaved at that moment? I'm confused. Because in Haunted & other eps, John had still been the love of Helen's life...she still held a torch for him...especially when you see scenes like the one where she finds him in Cambodia & snuggles next to him. If he was such a "bugger" back then, did she truly hate him, was she afraid of him, did he actually threaten her in the original time line, does she still love him in the future as she had before she went back in time????
Oi...Damian really has my head warped with this one. :P

I'm not sure if I interpret this correctly, so let me know if this is not what you meant.

I think that the confrontation between PastHelen and PastJohn also took place for FutureHelen, only at that time the guns (which FutureHelen had taken from PastHelen) were still in the drawer and presumably they were used by FutureHelen to scare off FutureJohn. By taking the weapons she left PastHelen vulnerable and unable to defend herself against PastJohn nor be able to warn him to stay away from her. Therefore, FutureHelen took her chance to correct it by kicking PastJohn's ass when he confronted her in the alley (although it may have been a more powerful warning than just shoving a gun in his face while trembling against the wall).

All in all, the way it took place was changed but the outcome remained the same.

I haven't seen the webisodes yet (although I've arrhed them, but I'm afraid it will mess up the show's established canon in my head), but I assume the scene where Helen shot at John and told him "This ends here" was the same as in Sanctuary for All? There she was hunting him down, ready to confront him and prepared to do what was necessary if he wouldn't stop killing and only shot him once he killed the whore. This time she was in her own house and he threatened her when she was unprepared and unarmed. She had seen the victims they'd accused him of (but were apparently SHJ's) and now he was enraged, seeming ready to kill her with that same knife... quite different from how he acted on the streets, where he never so much as laid a hand on her. I think it's not so much hating him as wishing she wouldn't still love him and be able to hate him, because she knew she had to stop him from his murderous ways. And there's a good chance that night in the study was the last time she saw him until he resurfaced during WWII...

[Kilgharrah]

So in short, the reason we started discussing this was the ages of Adam and Helen and your assumptions about longevity versus Praxian technology. I didn't agree with that therefore I used arguments to explain myself.
In other words, each one stands by what they said. Further arguments won't help. ;)

[Feast of the Muse]

I think that the confrontation between PastHelen and PastJohn also took place for FutureHelen, only at that time the guns (which FutureHelen had taken from PastHelen) were still in the drawer and presumably they were used by FutureHelen to scare off FutureJohn. By taking the weapons she left PastHelen vulnerable and unable to defend herself against PastJohn nor be able to warn him to stay away from her. Therefore, FutureHelen took her chance to correct it by kicking PastJohn's ass when he confronted her in the alley (although it may have been a more powerful warning than just shoving a gun in his face while trembling against the wall).

All in all, the way it took place was changed but the outcome remained the same.

<snip> And there's a good chance that night in the study was the last time she saw him until he resurfaced during WWII...

Ok, that's the way I understood is as well. The whole thing was basically a wash. Everything still happened, even if it happened a little bit differently than before. The effect on the future was the same.

I remember Helen referring to him going missing for long periods of time, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if WWII was the next time she saw him. I am willing to bet he'd laid eyes on her, though. He's kinda stalkerish, and he told her he was looking for her and the baby along the way, too. (That may have been in the webisodes.)

Fems, I remember reading that correction now, but I think I had already replied. :o I was doing the math for Cassie the other day and realized that she'd be roughly 26 now - almost the same age as Ashley. And yep, she'd have to have been frozen before 1885 or 1886 (depending on her actual birthday) for the aforementioned century. We know it was after the source blood, sooo, maybe the blood made them do it? Helen was always an envelope pusher, but it does seem odd she'd get pregnant before she was married, given the time they lived in. She had enough trouble getting respect as it was. I like the idea that the source blood made them a little crazy at first - and gave us Ashley.

[fems]

Ok, that's the way I understood is as well. The whole thing was basically a wash. Everything still happened, even if it happened a little bit differently than before. The effect on the future was the same.

I remember Helen referring to him going missing for long periods of time, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if WWII was the next time she saw him. I am willing to bet he'd laid eyes on her, though. He's kinda stalkerish, and he told her he was looking for her and the baby along the way, too. (That may have been in the webisodes.)

I don't recall him saying something like that, although he did say the following in the pilot:

DRUITT
I’ve been following your exploits for quite some time. You’re a very intrepid duo, you and your mother.




Fems, I remember reading that correction now, but I think I had already replied. :o

That's okay, I didn't want to delete all I'd written when I realized it too, so... :P



I was doing the math for Cassie the other day and realized that she'd be roughly 26 now - almost the same age as Ashley. And yep, she'd have to have been frozen before 1885 or 1886 (depending on her actual birthday) for the aforementioned century. We know it was after the source blood, sooo, maybe the blood made them do it? Helen was always an envelope pusher, but it does seem odd she'd get pregnant before she was married, given the time they lived in. She had enough trouble getting respect as it was. I like the idea that the source blood made them a little crazy at first - and gave us Ashley.

Wait, we know Ashley was conceived after the source blood?

Yeah, the whole sexual intercourse thing before getting married is a bit strange for that time. Perhaps Helen and John had gotten a bit carried away and then when Helen turned out to be pregnant, he proposed? But upon learning he was really Jack the Ripper she chose to freeze the embryo knowing she couldn't marry a man like that and broke off the engagement?

To think that The Five often comment on ill-mannered things in the 21st century while some of them were involved in illicit relationships and murdering people...

[fems]

Also, the Helen we saw was 48. I had to do the math because she seemed soooo young!

Yeah, she definitely doesn't look like a regular 48-year-old. I was re-watching the part where James figures out who she really is and I can't help but wonder if he already knew that her gift was longevity at that time... after all, she didn't look 48 but had he expected her to truly have longevity and live on until at least the twenty-first century?


But then, who's to say she was only pregnant once? I do wonder if a 48 year old single woman being pregnant was a huge scandal back then, and if she'd care?

Wow, I'd completely read over this the first time around. You're right though, who knows how many embryos Helen has frozen in those 160 years? Perhaps even more once she returns to 2011, simply because she can't risk carrying anyone's child in those 113 years...


futurehelen could resurface at ashley's death, but find a way of getting ashley out of there in some magic-like way (and not let current helen know or see it), and then... just let ashley start over somewhere, safe and sound and be able to live a normal life.

yes, current helen would still suffer greatly, but furturehelen would know that 'their' daughter lived and was able to have a great life. even if it was away and without her.

No, she can't. She cannot save Ashley as losing their daughter was what fueled John (and Nikola's) killing spree and wiped out the Cabal. There's no telling what would happen if Ashley was saved, how it would affect The Five, what The Cabal's fate would be, what would happen to the Hollow Earth story arc... Helen simply can't take the chance because it would irreparably alter the last two years of the present.

[Feast of the Muse]

Wait, we know Ashley was conceived after the source blood?

Yep. It's why the Cabal wanted Ashley. She is the only offspring of two source blood-injected parents.



No, she can't. She cannot save Ashley as losing their daughter was what fueled John (and Nikola's) killing spree and wiped out the Cabal. There's no telling what would happen if Ashley was saved, how it would affect The Five, what The Cabal's fate would be, what would happen to the Hollow Earth story arc... Helen simply can't take the chance because it would irreparably alter the last two years of the present.

This goes back to the 'nudging history back on course' thing. Helen knows when the Cabal goes down - like you said, John and Nikola wiped them out. But what if they did that before they got their hands on the source blood and Ashley went poof? Given that either way they are now a completely dead end, how would it matter? I'm not saying it's perfect, and Helen is usually too into the greater good to indulge for herself, but with another 113 years to go, you know she's going to mull it over.

[jckfan55]

All this logic flying. I'm not going to tax my brain. :D
Magnus will continue to look the same b/c of her longevity and AT's great genes. :D

I was more focused on the character stuff. I really liked the differences in (younger) Helen and current Magnus. I liked that we saw Helen wearing light colors and then we saw Magnus in a black dress. Kind of symbolic that.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens next (and what might have happened in the 113 years) for Magnus.
I didn't miss Will at all. :o
As far as Agam, maybe she has had some other offers and isn't available as much. Though I've come to accept Kate and like her a little, I don't think I'll be heartbroken if she's in less. Especially if it means more Magnus. :D But I did kind of want to see a Magnus/Kate episode...

[Feast of the Muse]

All this logic flying. I'm not going to tax my brain. :D
Magnus will continue to look the same b/c of her longevity and AT's great genes. :D

I was more focused on the character stuff. I really liked the differences in (younger) Helen and current Magnus. I liked that we saw Helen wearing light colors and then we saw Magnus in a black dress. Kind of symbolic that.


Agreed, AT will be AT. She can't help but be good looking. :)

I love that we have, as a group without debating it, organically come to call the younger "Helen" and the time-traveler "Magnus". The name alone speaks to how we see them as such different characters. I agree with the dark/light symbolism. Little Helen is just so sweet and innocent, even though we know she basically runs The Five.

Poor Magnus, kicked back into a more restrictive era just when she needs to blow off steam the most. I imagine she'll have a punching bag set up wherever she decides to land.

Oh, and jckfan55, I apologize (at least for me!) for the brain-taxing - fanfic writers do it in detail. ;)

[Abnormal]

God! I LOVED it! The best season premiere so far!! I would have loved to see the two Helens interact but it'd have had terrible consequences I guess. Oh and I wonder how future Helen's behaviour towards John may have altered the future.

I was very sad about Adam's loss, I didn't see the death of his daughter coming, but I suppose it was a way to say "future cannot be changed so easily, everything happens for a good reason".

Anyway, I can't wait for the new episode!!!

[KaKaCarter]

Great episode. Loved the way the ending left adam's future motivation the same but for a different reason. Nice to see Watson back & do wonder if his knowledge of the future will somehow mean that when Helen gets to the future it will be a future he is alive in. Sad there was no Tesla cameo in what was a historical episode.

Tiny niggles. The Jack & spring heeled Jack thing needed some dialogue in the story. Now i get it but my first reaction watching the Ep was that they were retconning the back story.

Hated the John & future Helen fight. Far too one sided. After the initial upper hand from him not expecting it i wanted something far more even as it lost all believability for me.

[fems]

Yep. It's why the Cabal wanted Ashley. She is the only offspring of two source blood-injected parents.

Ah, like that. See, I merely interpreted it as them knowing that Ashley would have (most likely) inherited the dormant genes from Druitt and Magnus. That they knew the source blood would work on her and what they'd most likely get as a result. I never really considered the source blood necessarily changing the gametes, but of course we know that Griffin passed his gift on to his daughter and she passed it on to Clara. However, sperm is produced from puberty to the rest of a man's life, but ova are already present at birth. So I'm not sure if Helen actually could pass on her longevity unless those offspring are also injected with a serum of the source blood, like Ashley. Not to mention that Ashley didn't have Druitt's powers to begin with, which would also suggest she needed the source blood to activate the dormant genes, just like her parents.




This goes back to the 'nudging history back on course' thing. Helen knows when the Cabal goes down - like you said, John and Nikola wiped them out. But what if they did that before they got their hands on the source blood and Ashley went poof? Given that either way they are now a completely dead end, how would it matter? I'm not saying it's perfect, and Helen is usually too into the greater good to indulge for herself, but with another 113 years to go, you know she's going to mull it over.

Yes, but she doesn't know what the Cabal has done in the meantime. It's possible some of their actions were necessary for the present. Also, how could she convince John and Nikola to go killing for her after previously condemning them for killing people? Ashley's death fueled their own desires for vengeance (which is kinda sweet of Nikola, considering Ashley isn't his child and he's always pretending to not care about others) and it drove them to hunt down The Cabal and kill them. If FutureHelen was going to wipe out The Cabal herself before they got to Ashley, it would mean altering John and Nikola's actions in the present. Who knows what kind of plans for world domination/vampire resurrection Nikola would have come up with if he hadn't been chasing The Cabal?

If FutureHelen interferes with all that, it's possible The Cabal never destroys their own lab, which means Nikola won't be captured by those insect creatures in Colombia and they wouldn't discover the secret Cabal laboratory. The data from that lab (about the source blood) wouldn't be in Magnus/Nikola's possession, Nikola wouldn't have been able to "sacrifice" himself for Magnus and possibly earn a bit more of her trust... he wouldn't have gotten his hands on one of those insect creatures altered by the source blood.

Without losing her daughter, there's also a chance Magnus won't take some of the risks (or missions in general) she has done after Ashley's death. She might not have gone through the dementia-thing in Veritas, wouldn't have been willing to sacrifice her life for Big Bertha by flying that chopper etc etc.

Kate wouldn't have joined the Sanctuary (although I could so live with that - and it would make a good excuse for limiting Agam's appearances) and everything she has done would never happen. She could have done more harm than good if she hadn't switched sides. They might not have found Will in Mumbai without her help, if he'd gone there at all. They'd never have retrieved the Fire Elemental from Jimmy, would have never pulled off the bank job, never gotten the super hero suit and saved Walter...

Lots and lots of things would/could have gone down differently. In a way, it could be said that Ashley's death was inevitable and had to happen, much like Imogen's death. Magnus already told Adam that she would never try to save her daughter if it meant altering the future/present.


ETA:


Great episode. Loved the way the ending left adam's future motivation the same but for a different reason. Nice to see Watson back & do wonder if his knowledge of the future will somehow mean that when Helen gets to the future it will be a future he is alive in.

Who knows, if it turns out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy maybe that's how and why Watson came up with the suit ;)


Hated the John & future Helen fight. Far too one sided. After the initial upper hand from him not expecting it i wanted something far more even as it lost all believability for me.

But it made sense; John hardly had any martial art/combat experience. In the present he has over a century worth of experience and knowing he used Adam's safe houses and tried to lay low for years, it's not too far-fetched to imagine him brushing up on his fighting skills.

[Skydiver]

Technically, yes, an unwed mother was a massive scandal.
On the other hand all she'd. Need to do is go away, create a new identity, have herself be a widow, have the child, then a few years later either return with the child or have someone else raise the child and the scandal could be avoided.
Happened all the time.

[Kyarra]

Helen on a 113 year vacation would be a sight to see. I hope we get to see some of the effects of that in the rest of the season, being in seclusion for that long after the action-packed life she normally lives would change how she reacts to people.

Bring on the rest of S4! :D

I don't see how we couldn't see some of the side effects of that forced vacation on her. Living in secusion for that long is bound to have a profound effect on her people skills, as well as have impact on other areas of her life that will probably crop up as the season continues.

[blueray]

The Praxians gave Gregory and Adam their longevity, right? (Lol, they just give the stuff away like candy, apparently, no big deal!)


yeah they really do. that makes sense. because both took referage there somewhere in the late 1800's.

one flashback that would be cool would be what happened right after they took the source blood. like was nickola surprised to turn into a vamp?

[Dinoman]

I have a question (sorry if it was asked before in previous postings): as the present/future Helen was in the past chasing Adam, she is not existing in the present timeline, so there are 2 Helens in the 1880s England and 0 Helen in the 21st century, or both survive and live to the 21st century?

[Mandysg1]

I have a question (sorry if it was asked before in previous postings): as the present/future Helen was in the past chasing Adam, she is not existing in the present timeline, so there are 2 Helens in the 1880s England and 0 Helen in the 21st century, or both survive and live to the 21st century?

Both survive, but our present/future Helen has to lie low for 113 years, then when younger Helen jumps to the past...future Helen takes her place, leaving only 1 left.

I hope I got that right ;)

[Dinoman]

so... the present Helen is actually 272 y.o.? (she jumped back to the past at the age of 159 and laid low for 113 year).

The whole past/future thing confused me....

BTW, I have to say Watson's reaction to all those stuff future Helen brought was so adorable!

[Mandysg1]

so... the present Helen is actually 272 y.o.? (she jumped back to the past at the age of 159 and laid low for 113 year).

The whole past/future thing confused me....

BTW, I have to say Watson's reaction to all those stuff future Helen brought was so adorable!

Yes

Me too ;)

And I totally agree :D

[Chelle DB]

I'm not sure if I interpret this correctly, so let me know if this is not what you meant.
I think that the confrontation between PastHelen and PastJohn also took place for FutureHelen, only at that time the guns (which FutureHelen had taken from PastHelen) were still in the drawer and presumably they were used by FutureHelen to scare off FutureJohn. By taking the weapons she left PastHelen vulnerable and unable to defend herself against PastJohn nor be able to warn him to stay away from her. Therefore, FutureHelen took her chance to correct it by kicking PastJohn's ass when he confronted her in the alley (although it may have been a more powerful warning than just shoving a gun in his face while trembling against the wall).
All in all, the way it took place was changed but the outcome remained the same.
I haven't seen the webisodes yet (although I've arrhed them, but I'm afraid it will mess up the show's established canon in my head), but I assume the scene where Helen shot at John and told him "This ends here" was the same as in Sanctuary for All? There she was hunting him down, ready to confront him and prepared to do what was necessary if he wouldn't stop killing and only shot him once he killed the whore. This time she was in her own house and he threatened her when she was unprepared and unarmed. She had seen the victims they'd accused him of (but were apparently SHJ's) and now he was enraged, seeming ready to kill her with that same knife... quite different from how he acted on the streets, where he never so much as laid a hand on her. I think it's not so much hating him as wishing she wouldn't still love him and be able to hate him, because she knew she had to stop him from his murderous ways. And there's a good chance that night in the study was the last time she saw him until he resurfaced during WWII...
:P Ok, that sounds like it makes sense...in fact I've now watched the ep 3 times & shockingly, I am starting to understand some of what the heck is going on...scary thought as it may be but the twists are starting to unravel for me...slowly.
Thanks for the help. :)

[Feast of the Muse]

I love that Magnus wouldn't let him toast the iPhone. Wonder if she wanted to see her pictures one last time? I bet she still has pictures of Ashley from their little stay in Rome.

It would be interesting to see if she actually takes up painting with all that time. Would she paint Ashley?

[KayLyne]

I love that Magnus wouldn't let him toast the iPhone.

I thought she did toss it. He was hesitant to put it in the fire as he was still in awe looking at it and she said "don't even think about it" - meaning don't think about keeping it. Didn't she grab it from him & toss it in the fire herself?

[suse]

I wonder how the whole two Helen's living in the same time line will affect them...what about what happened in SG1...entropic cascade failure? I know this isn't SG but still, wouldn't there always be two Helen's living in the same time line regardless of if & when Helen goes back to the past...she'll always be there coz she has the gift of longevity...unless at some point, one of the Helen's dies...& that's something I'm not sure I want to see.
See, head still hurts...damn time lines...I hate time travel when it changes things so dramatically.

Entropic cascade failure is a Stargate construct to tell a story. It doesn't exist here. No problem! :)


With her lifespan she will have lived more than just several lifetimes. If she was tired enough of it after the first time around, imagine how cranky she's gonna be the second time...I don't think she'll be so sane in the future. :)

She wasn't so sane this ep, coming off of Out of the Blue and Into the Black. :)

I agree. Will be a fun ride.

[tagger]

Hi everyone!

Haven't read the comments yet as didn't want my comments influenced. =)

Loved Tempus. What a powerful premiere! Team Sanctuary is so talented - well written story, great characterizations, fantastic acting by all, set dec and costumes unbelievably beautiful, VFX great, whole cast and crew rock!

Loved the way AT played the different timeline Helens - great job - could see the joy/ innocence in Victorian Helen, and the anger in unhinged future Helen. Saw the symbolism in the costumes - dark and light. What was the tipping point in Helen's character? She wasn't this unhinged at the end of last season... what was the proverbial last straw?

Hated to see younger Helen abused/controlled by Druitt and can't believe older Helen still lets Druitt around.

I am completely confused by the timeline stuff. Are there 2 Helens until 113 years from this episode, but then events repeat and there are 3 Helens, then 4, to infinity? All eventually travelling a very worn out 113 year line of time? I gotta be missing something, and my measly brain is not cooperating in helping me figure it out. Also, if I was Helen sitting around for 113 years, I might not be as quick to judge Adam Worths' drive to save his daughter. 113 years of thinking about my daughters' death and I'd be pretty tempted to alter Ashleys' timeline. Helen will presumably have to live through her daughters' death again. Horrid.

From a purist standpoint, the future has already been altered to an unknown degree - it was altered the instant time travel occurred, right? Let alone the multitude of effects from Helen beating up John, speaking with children, shooting, interacting with Watson, etc... Butterfly effect - molecule oscillating here makes a hurricane there...? Are multiple time lines scattering out from when Helen's two timelines crashed into each other? Then part of me agrees with Worth in saying how do we know future Helen's timeline is the best?

Speaking of Worth, Ian Tracey is such a great actor - the scenes with Worth and Helen (future or past) were all riveting. Men's club scene was wonderfully done.

Past Helen does not have a gun bum. :D
(hehe loved that future Helen took past Helens' gun, then kicked Johns' okole later.)

Future Helen kicks arse, masters a number of weapons, and EVEN fits into the same clothes she wore 113 years ago. Crud. :cool:

[Skydiver]

entrophic cascade failure had to do with two people from separate universes in one, not time lines. :)

as to the timeline, helen A was born, lived, went to praxis, went back in time, stopped adam, went to seclusion
meanwhile she ran into helen B in the past, who lived, went to praxis, went back in time, stopped adam, went to seclusion

and we have an endless loop where from 1898 to 2010 and Praxis, there are two helens on teh planet, one as helen, another as whomever, then there is only one to live out the rest of her life from 2010 forward

[Steff]

entrophic cascade failure had to do with two people from separate universes in one, not time lines. :)

as to the timeline, helen A was born, lived, went to praxis, went back in time, stopped adam, went to seclusion
meanwhile she ran into helen B in the past, who lived, went to praxis, went back in time, stopped adam, went to seclusion

and we have an endless loop where from 1898 to 2010 and Praxis, there are two helens on teh planet, one as helen, another as whomever, then there is only one to live out the rest of her life from 2010 forward

Why doesn't she just get to the cave earlier and kill Adam before he goes back to the past. He would be dead and then would be just one helen. Yeap.... problem solved.

[Dinoman]

Why doesn't she just get to the cave earlier and kill Adam before he goes back to the past. He would be dead and then would be just one helen. Yeap.... problem solved.

Then there would be no Season 4 and no Tempus!! :p

[Steff]

Then there would be no Season 4 and no Tempus!! :p

Hum?..... You are right. *Cancel Plan*

[majorsal]

Why doesn't she just get to the cave earlier and kill Adam before he goes back to the past. He would be dead and then would be just one helen. Yeap.... problem solved.

:lol:

yep, problem solved for sure! helen should have *you* as her proti... prota... her second in command :p

[Steff]

:lol:

yep, problem solved for sure! helen should have *you* as her proti... prota... her second in command :p


I would be her "number one" and she would be my "Captain Picard"

[fems]

I love that Magnus wouldn't let him toast the iPhone. Wonder if she wanted to see her pictures one last time?

She was the one who eventually tossed it into the fire, he wanted to hold on to it, Like Kaylyne said:


I thought she did toss it. He was hesitant to put it in the fire as he was still in awe looking at it and she said "don't even think about it" - meaning don't think about keeping it. Didn't she grab it from him & toss it in the fire herself?

Funny how Watson is so mesmerized by her smartphone in 1898, but still reverts to telegrams in 2009 for communication. Poor guy must be disillusioned :P


Entropic cascade failure is a Stargate construct to tell a story. It doesn't exist here. No problem! :)


Yep, like Skydiver said:


entrophic cascade failure had to do with two people from separate universes in one, not time lines. :)



Just think of Continuum where two Daniels, the one from the original timeline and the one from the altered timeline could both live in the same time.



Future Helen kicks arse, masters a number of weapons, and EVEN fits into the same clothes she wore 113 years ago. Crud. :cool:

Yeah, not a lot of people can say that. Most can't even with into clothes from 20 years ago, especially after having had a baby :P What we've seen from the trailers means she'll also still fit her future/present clothes, so she has basically been able to wear the same size for over 230 years! :P



Why doesn't she just get to the cave earlier and kill Adam before he goes back to the past. He would be dead and then would be just one helen. Yeap.... problem solved.

No, she can't. If all goes as it should, PastHelen will try to track him down and is probably in/around Praxis too. We don't know exactly when Adam starts setting up shop there with his time travel device so FutureHelen would have to be there for quite some time to anticipate his arrival, since she wasn't able to shoot him once the experiment had started. Not to mention that if either of the Helens manage to kill him, there would still be two Helens in the present, meaning FutureHelen can't take back her (rightful?) place as head of the Sanctuaries with PastHelen there.

[Mandysg1]

Like Steff said if Helen kills Adam before he goes back to the past, there would not be any time travel, hence no 2 Helen's, and true problem solved.

[Rocky89]

After finally seeing the episode in peace, I must say, I was very impressed. :) The episode had everything, a good story, action, mystery and it was a great Helen episode, and Amanda did a great job. :) I loved Helen's interactions with Watson, and I notcied that the picture of her on one of her cards was one of Amanda's S3 promo pics. :p I liked seeing Watson examine Helen's things from the future, he look so fascinated by them, and I also liked that he figured out that Helen was from the future so fast. :p

The scene with PastHelen almost catching FutureHelen in her room was so cool, and PastHelen's hair reminded of Sam Carter. :) Even though we only got 2 scenes with PastHelen/FutureHelen with John, I thought they were very well done, and the fight with them really showed how tough Helen is, and also showed John that she's not a pushover. ;) The Spring heeled Jack story was OK, and it gave fans something to talk about on twitter. :p Oh, and of course, the Helen/Adam story was done well, and I thought that in the end, his daughter wouldn't live, and it'd be Adam, and not Helen to kill her. When I saw Helen kill him, I was like "FIANLLY". :p

Overall, it was a great episode, strong and smart, and it'll be interesting to see how our Helen is when she gets back to her present, and how 113 of "vacation" has changed her. Season 4 is off to a good start. :)

Oh, and as a tribute to the episode and Amanda's acting, I made this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXX9tkhH6qU

[Julian]

Like Steff said if Helen kills Adam before he goes back to the past, there would not be any time travel, hence no 2 Helen's, and true problem solved.
But there WOULD be two Helens.

FutureHelen (our Helen) would stop PastHelen from going back to 1898, meaning there would be two Helens in the timeline still, and nothing to rectify that.

[Steff]

But there WOULD be two Helens.

FutureHelen (our Helen) would stop PastHelen from going back to 1898, meaning there would be two Helens in the timeline still, and nothing to rectify that.

If FutureHelen didn't vanish into thin air these 2 would be the last of the repeating Helens. It would stop the loop.

[KayLyne]

to confuse myself even further - if Present-Helen carried out her original plan of suicide after Imogene and present-Adam were killed, that would mean we'd never have a Helen Magnus anytime after this episode, because she'd always be going back in the time loop. ... right?

[Steff]

to confuse myself even further - if Present-Helen carried out her original plan of suicide after Imogene and present-Adam were killed, that would mean we'd never have a Helen Magnus anytime after this episode, because she'd always be going back in the time loop. ... right?

Yeap, but every time-loop Helen would have the option of suicide or not.

[NumberSix]

Wow. Great episode and gives us a LOT to think about and wonder what else is coming up in S4. Lots of great discussion in this thread and I've been trying to catch up but I wanted to rewatch the ep first and now it's 10 pages already!!! arrrgh!


Feast of the Muse: I bet he'll do something else nuts. Even though Helen had nothing to do with Imogene's death, did you see that 1898 Adam still blamed it on her? She wasn't there in time. Seriously! He's got it out for her no matter what.

Makes me wonder if now he'll go back in time again to try to somehow stop the bricks (I know they called them something else but can't remember the word) from falling on her.



Mackandal: So John was Jack, but Jack was also Jack, but not the Jack that killed Jerry or the Jack that save James who is known as John and finds Jack, not the James who is Jimmy.

:confused: I'm totally confused now.


Steff: Helen to John: "And now Jealousy? For whom?"

Wow, I just caught that line.

Yes, at least three of The Five seem to have woven a very tangled web. ;)



Evenstar: I also thought Ian Tracey did a great job with the two Worths, one more confident and driven, but still gentle with Imogene, and the past version that starts rather gentle and heads towards the hardness the future one has because of her death.

It's a testament to Ian's acting skill and the writing of this episode. He's a madman one minute, but then we also see him as a father who very clearly loves and will do anything to save his daughter. I can actually feel some empathy for his character that I didn't before, when I saw him look at Imogene and say it was all worth it.


lastrequest: Maybe she travels the world setting up the different sanctuaries?? Or maybe she makes a lot of contacts for future use? Maybe she sends the odd anonymous tip off to herself?

She just might. But then again she seems dead set against altering history in any way so she might be afraid that even sending a tip to herself would somehow change something.



RealmofX: Actually it's not, though it will look like an endless loop if you only look at the period 1898 to 2011. If you look at the longer time line you'll see see Helen born in 1850 (I think) and live through to 2011 then jumpback in time for 1 loop then proceed to live past 2011. There's only one Helen but due to time travelling there are two instances of her for a period.

This is the part that gives me a headache. Present Helen travels to the past and can't get back, so from the revised 1898 to 2011 there are 2 Helens. So when the altered history Helen gets to 2011 does she go back in time too? Or maybe she won't have to depending on what Adam does? How do we not end up with 2 Helens after 2011? I think I need to reread comments and think some more. :S

[helenmagnus23]

This is probably a really dumb question but there are always going to be Two Helen's in both the past timeline and the present and one Adam isn't there? And with the major changes happening in the present is it possible one Helen could be covering for the other until the loop is broken but which one we don't know yet? I'm really curious oh and I so want to know her big secret it's gonna be huge! :D

[Dinoman]

I found one post in IMDB board which I think is the best fitted explanation so far:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0965394/board/thread/189498296?d=189523947&p=1#189523947

[Steff]

I found one post in IMDB board which I think is the best fitted explanation so far:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0965394/board/thread/189498296?d=189523947&p=1#189523947

Hehee... that reminds be of the Final Destination Movies. *Helen better watch out for death*

[selene0789]

Okay, kind of a random question for y'all... Did anyone else notice that Spring-heel Jack sounded a LOT like Robin Dunne? I dunno if he was credited, but... it sounded like him! I'll betcha anything it was him.

[Steff]

Okay, kind of a random question for y'all... Did anyone else notice that Spring-heel Jack sounded a LOT like Robin Dunne? I dunno if he was credited, but... it sounded like him! I'll betcha anything it was him.

Your not the first.... Right after it aired this was on twitter....


@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
What? That would be nuts. @puffandruffle Oh my god. Did @RobinDunne play Jack?! #Sanctuary @GillianHorvath @SanctuarySeries

@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
And everyone knows we are NEVER nuts around here. RT @puffandruffle

[selene0789]

Alright, I guess I will kick this off with a question. And it's a spoiler. Where is the spoiler button??? I'll put it in white, highlight if you want to read it.

The description above states that they are in 1898 London, but in reality, John Druitt died in 1888 (of course ours didn't), as did the crime streak he was accused of. So why are we seeing people killed that way in 1898? I know they like to turn history on it's ear, but I thought they were sticking to the established time table?

Also, Feast, there are many people who actually suspect that Montague John Druitt was NOT the Ripper. In fact, some people have speculated that the Ripper killings did not end-- that he merely jumped the pond instead and continued his killing in America, where whores were plentiful and investigative skills were lacking. Some cold case experts have traced down other murders in America that fit the MO of the Ripper. So it is conceivable that the laypeople of the world believed the Ripper to be at it again...

But of course, no one knows for sure, and therein lies the draw of Sanctuary. :D It turns history on its ear, and I LOVE that.

[Julian]

If FutureHelen didn't vanish into thin air these 2 would be the last of the repeating Helens. It would stop the loop.
Stop the loop, but not the problem of there being two Helens in the one timeline?!

[selene0789]

Your not the first.... Right after it aired this was on twitter....


@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
What? That would be nuts. @puffandruffle Oh my god. Did @RobinDunne play Jack?! #Sanctuary @GillianHorvath @SanctuarySeries

@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
And everyone knows we are NEVER nuts around here. RT @puffandruffle

Thanks! :D I'll take that as a 'yes' then. Heheheh... Oh, I'm good! My dad didn't believe me. I cited the "Barney voice", but he could only scratch his head at that. Apparently he didn't see that part :p

[selene0789]

Stop the loop, but not the problem of there being two Helens in the one timeline?!

I nearly gave myself an aneurysm trying to work this out. Personally, I'm choosing to believe that there will be an eternal cycle of Helens going back in time after Adam. Because there can't be TWO Magnuses. The world would implode ;)

Well, either a loop, but if one loop ever resulted in past!Adam NOT blaming Magnus for Imogene's death, then the future!Magnus of that loop would somehow be killed, or past!Magnus would be. The cosmos has a way of straightening that out. The eaves falling on a cured Imogene is proof of that, methinks...

[Feast of the Muse]

If Magnus ever decides NOT to follow Adam, or stops him before he goes, then she won't have to live the extra 113 years in wait, so she will just continue along her simple straight timeline, and the Magnus who went back in time will just not be there anymore, because now Magnus didn't go back. Clear as mud?

As the past repeating itself shows, it seems her fate to go back in time (just as it was Imogene's to die), because it sets her up and gives her LOTS of time to think and prepare for the destruction of Praxis and resulting waves of abnormals coming to the surface. I think the loop is staying forevermore.

[selene0789]

If Magnus ever decides NOT to follow Adam, or stops him before he goes, then she won't have to live the extra 113 years in wait, so she will just continue along her simple straight timeline, and the Magnus who went back in time will just not be there anymore, because now Magnus didn't go back. Clear as mud?

As the past repeating itself shows, it seems her fate to go back in time (just as it was Imogene's to die), because it sets her up and gives her LOTS of time to think and prepare for the destruction of Praxis and resulting waves of abnormals coming to the surface.

You actually bring up a good point about Praxis. Think maybe Magnus will warn Praxis about the coming destruction to give her dad and Ranna time to escape? I'm hoping so... I like Gregory.

[Feast of the Muse]

That does clear up up a few story lines that were basically killed with Praxis destroyed. I thought we were in for more Ranna/Helen friendship for sure. And they've killed Ashley, if they kill Gregory then I will be very surprised if they don't kill Helen off eventually. And I do NOT want that!!!

[parsifal]

Your not the first.... Right after it aired this was on twitter....


@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
What? That would be nuts. @puffandruffle Oh my god. Did @RobinDunne play Jack?! #Sanctuary @GillianHorvath @SanctuarySeries

@GillianHorvath Gillian Horvath
And everyone knows we are NEVER nuts around here. RT @puffandruffle

Plus this:



I spoke briefly to Robin and he said that all hell is about to break loose on Sanctuary. I commented that we missed him in the premiere- he told me to watch closely- he is in the premiere but you have to look for him.


http://multipleverses.com/2011/10/09/syfy-press-tour-opening-night-report/

[fems]

That does clear up up a few story lines that were basically killed with Praxis destroyed. I thought we were in for more Ranna/Helen friendship for sure. And they've killed Ashley, if they kill Gregory then I will be very surprised if they don't kill Helen off eventually. And I do NOT want that!!!

They can't kill Gregory in Praxis because

he's going to sing Helen a song in Fugue

[Skydiver]

Plus this:



I spoke briefly to Robin and he said that all hell is about to break loose on Sanctuary. I commented that we missed him in the premiere- he told me to watch closely- he is in the premiere but you have to look for him.


http://multipleverses.com/2011/10/09/syfy-press-tour-opening-night-report/

i wonder if he's one of the 'extras' on the street or in the gentleman's club

[samcartersg1]

i wonder if he's one of the 'extras' on the street or in the gentleman's club
I read somewhere that robin was Springhill Jack

[selene0789]

I read somewhere that robin was Springhill Jack

Yup! I knew it! Pegged him right off the bat. ::does victory lap:: Robin is Spring-heel Jack. Woo hoo!

If you watch it again, see if you can't hear Barney from the webisodes in Spring-heel Jack's voice ;)

[lillypilly]

You actually bring up a good point about Praxis. Think maybe Magnus will warn Praxis about the coming destruction to give her dad and Ranna time to escape? I'm hoping so... I like Gregory.

This is what I'm assuming - in fact, this could even be Magnus' big secret. That she saved Gregory, Ranna, and the city inhabitants. It wouldn't even be changing the timeline - all we knew was that the city was destroyed, we didn't know whether anyone survived. Maybe Magnus warned them in time to get them out, and they're hidden away somewhere rebuilding and amassing their resources and owing Magnus another huge favour for saving their asses again. Having the Praxians and all their technology on her side would be one hell of an ace to keep in her pocket.

[samcartersg1]

Yup! I knew it! Pegged him right off the bat. ::does victory lap:: Robin is Spring-heel Jack. Woo hoo!

If you watch it again, see if you can't hear Barney from the webisodes in Spring-heel Jack's voice ;)

I believe this is a behind the scenes photo of filiming Tempus with Robin in a harness - presumably rehearsing SpringHill Jack

32362

[selene0789]

This is what I'm assuming - in fact, this could even be Magnus' big secret. That she saved Gregory, Ranna, and the city inhabitants. It wouldn't even be changing the timeline - all we knew was that the city was destroyed, we didn't know whether anyone survived. Maybe Magnus warned them in time to get them out, and they're hidden away somewhere rebuilding and amassing their resources and owing Magnus another huge favour for saving their asses again. Having the Praxians and all their technology on her side would be one hell of an ace to keep in her pocket.

Ooooh, yes. I like this one. Ole Harry Maybourne would go into an apoplectic fit if Magnus showed up to battle with Ranna and Praxis at her back. BTW, I'm just assuming Harry Maybourne-- his actor, anyway, who plays the head of the Lotus Defense Group-- is gonna be the villain in this season. Or at least one of the villains. Because Harry Maybourne is Harry Maybourne is Harry Maybourne... ;)

But it could just as easily be Will as a villain, since the timeline might've been changed. *headdesk* It needs to be FRIDAY already! Episode 2!!!! YAY!

[selene0789]

I was just watching Tempus again, and I noticed for the first time that when things are ended in the reformer's club, and Adam calls over the steward, he totally makes out like Magnus is a prostitute. He says "thanks for the offer, but I'm a family man, and a gentleman."

Now her even more murderous glare makes so much sense. He's a rat bass-turd. No joke. That's a serious implication to make back then. Grrrrr.... Magnus is a classy dame, darnit! He should have more respect. :mad:

[NumberSix]

Also, Feast, there are many people who actually suspect that Montague John Druitt was NOT the Ripper. In fact, some people have speculated that the Ripper killings did not end-- that he merely jumped the pond instead and continued his killing in America, where whores were plentiful and investigative skills were lacking. Some cold case experts have traced down other murders in America that fit the MO of the Ripper. So it is conceivable that the laypeople of the world believed the Ripper to be at it again...

But of course, no one knows for sure, and therein lies the draw of Sanctuary. :D It turns history on its ear, and I LOVE that.

That's interesting! And I love that about Sanctuary too. :D


parsifal: I spoke briefly to Robin and he said that all hell is about to break loose on Sanctuary. I commented that we missed him in the premiere- he told me to watch closely- he is in the premiere but you have to look for him.


Cool. oooops, now I"m gonna have to watch it again with that in mind.

[Steff]

I believe this is a behind the scenes photo of filiming Tempus with Robin in a harness - presumably rehearsing SpringHill Jack

32362

Great catch.

[blueray]

This is what I'm assuming - in fact, this could even be Magnus' big secret. That she saved Gregory, Ranna, and the city inhabitants. It wouldn't even be changing the timeline - all we knew was that the city was destroyed, we didn't know whether anyone survived. Maybe Magnus warned them in time to get them out, and they're hidden away somewhere rebuilding and amassing their resources and owing Magnus another huge favour for saving their asses again. Having the Praxians and all their technology on her side would be one hell of an ace to keep in her pocket.

that would be interesting. i definitely think that Greggory is still alive because they brought him into the show (where they didn't have too) and it seems like he'll have more of a role to play later.

[Angela V]

Yeah! Sanctuary is back. Was wondering what was going to happen to FutureHelen. Never even thought of the "Vacation" idea! I hope we do get to see what she did all those years.

[selene0789]

Yeah! Sanctuary is back. Was wondering what was going to happen to FutureHelen. Never even thought of the "Vacation" idea! I hope we do get to see what she did all those years.

I kinda actually laughed when they started talking about 113 years of vacation. I was like, "the woman can barely handle a long weekend every seven years! How is she going to remain sane for over a century?!" Hehehehe....

[tomstone]

This is what I'm assuming - in fact, this could even be Magnus' big secret. That she saved Gregory, Ranna, and the city inhabitants. It wouldn't even be changing the timeline - all we knew was that the city was destroyed, we didn't know whether anyone survived. Maybe Magnus warned them in time to get them out, and they're hidden away somewhere rebuilding and amassing their resources and owing Magnus another huge favour for saving their asses again. Having the Praxians and all their technology on her side would be one hell of an ace to keep in her pocket.

I am so jealous that I didnt think of this. :)

She can save them without changing the Timeline. I really hope they do this since I was really sad seeing the City destroyed. It wont save the City, but maybe some valuable allies.

[fems]

I am so jealous that I didnt think of this. :)

She can save them without changing the Timeline. I really hope they do this since I was really sad seeing the City destroyed. It wont save the City, but maybe some valuable allies.

But I assumed the next episode is basically when Magnus "comes back" from her 113-year vacation (without anyone noticing she'd been gone of course) and that's basically all about the abnormals from Hollow Earth coming to the surface and a war starting between them and the rest of humanity... so if Magnus would have prevented that, wouldn't that have been prevented?

[Kilgharrah]

Actually, Helen won't be in the next. it'll be about the others dealing with what happened. AT is directing.

[fems]

But she's in the promo pics for 402...

[Steff]

Actually, Helen won't be in the next. it'll be about the others dealing with what happened. AT is directing.

Boooooo. I do think it nice that Amanda directs but for me I do not look forward to a near Helenless Episode. (One Night... didn't care for :( )

[Kilgharrah]

Boooooo. I do think it nice that Amanda directs but for me I do not look forward to a near Helenless Episode. (One Night... didn't care for :( )
I hear ya.

[siles]

But she's in the promo pics for 402...

She'll probably have a reduced role; I can see her appearing only at the end of the episode, or during its climax and helping Will resolve the crisis

[selene0789]

She'll probably have a reduced role; I can see her appearing only at the end of the episode, or during its climax and helping Will resolve the crisis

I have this really awesome scene in my head of when Magnus comes back, and Will's all like, "where the hell have you been? The world's been going to hell in a handbasket and--" but then he gets cut off when Magnus marches up to him and wraps him in a great big hug, with relief just flooding across her features cuz she's FINALLY home.

But it would be totally not shippy, because Will's too immature for her yet.

[tomstone]

But I assumed the next episode is basically when Magnus "comes back" from her 113-year vacation (without anyone noticing she'd been gone of course) and that's basically all about the abnormals from Hollow Earth coming to the surface and a war starting between them and the rest of humanity... so if Magnus would have prevented that, wouldn't that have been prevented?

Thats the thing, the facts need to remain the same for Past Helen so she will hunt Adam through time too, but there is nothing talking against it that she at least warns her Father and Raana. She didnt have proof that they are actually Dead when she went after Adam.

So she can get them to safety without creating any paradoxes and in turn they will be able to help her when the material hits the fan.

[Feast of the Muse]

But it would be totally not shippy, because Will's too immature for her yet.

Will will NEVER be mature enough for her, no matter how cute the shippers think they are together. Talk about a cougar... Oh my!

[selene0789]

Will will NEVER be mature enough for her, no matter how cute the shippers think they are together. Talk about a cougar... Oh my!

But to be honest, if you think about it, Helen's a cougar no matter WHO she pursues. Enchants. Whatever. Because except for John and Nikola, no one else would be as old as she is, technically speaking and all that. But she's not frigid enough to never go after the younger folks. :D

[majorsal]

Boooooo. I do think it nice that Amanda directs but for me I do not look forward to a near Helenless Episode. (One Night... didn't care for :( )

i'm not looking forward to it either. :S so that's two out of 13 eps i'm not thrilled with. i hope more isn't added to this number, seeing as it's such a small number already! :p

[Skydiver]

what I think it's going to be like is....anyone read the Game of Thrones books? Once you get to 4 and 5, feast for crows and dance with dragons, they may be two separate books that came out years apart, but they take place, chronologically, at the same time.

so you get to the end of book 4 with characters in certain places, then start book 5 and you end up with some characters back where they were at the beginning of book 4. (what happened was that book 4 was going to be too flipping massive for one book, so since he writes a character pov per chapter, he took roughly half of them out, set them aside and turned them into book 5)

I'm thinking 402 will be the same way. 'meanwhile, back at the future'....what Will & co experience will likely be like Tempus, from the instant of the fade to black last season.

[helenmagnus23]

I agree with you Sky we have seen what's been happening in the past now we will see what's happening in the future and we might also see how the events that have happend in Tempus the changes seep through into Uprising.

[Feast of the Muse]

I'm thinking 402 will be the same way. 'meanwhile, back at the future'....what Will & co experience will likely be like Tempus, from the instant of the fade to black last season.

That would make perfect sense. Why leave out Will panicking that Magnus has had a huge fight with John, and then followed a madman through a possibly radiation poisoning time portal? That's waaaay too much fun to skip out on.

[Steff]

what I think it's going to be like is....anyone read the Game of Thrones books? Once you get to 4 and 5, feast for crows and dance with dragons, they may be two separate books that came out years apart, but they take place, chronologically, at the same time.

so you get to the end of book 4 with characters in certain places, then start book 5 and you end up with some characters back where they were at the beginning of book 4. (what happened was that book 4 was going to be too flipping massive for one book, so since he writes a character pov per chapter, he took roughly half of them out, set them aside and turned them into book 5)

I'm thinking 402 will be the same way. 'meanwhile, back at the future'....what Will & co experience will likely be like Tempus, from the instant of the fade to black last season.


Sky.... I love your example. Has it cleared everything up for me?.... Nope. But it did make me look forward to that actual "Helen Reveal" moment in a couple of days.


That would make perfect sense. Why leave out Will panicking that Magnus has had a huge fight with John, and then followed a madman through a possibly radiation poisoning time portal? That's waaaay too much fun to skip out on.

Yeah, let Will take some heat.... Let's see what kind of Leader he can be without Helen to hold his hand. Yeah.

[tomstone]

I know something else our Helen could do for the 113 Years to come. Somewhere remote with limited contact to the outside... its obvious... she is going to go to Tibet to train with Monks and once she rejoins her Friends she will be completly balanced, but be careful if someone disrupts her Chi. :P

[lillypilly]

Also if Magnus returns right from the start of the episode, there would be no reason for Will to be made acting head of the network (which, I so do not get. There's no one more senior amongst the other sanctuary heads? Really?).

Although, I do expect her to come back towards the end of the ep, final act maybe, to pop back up all SURPRISE YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHERE I'VE BEEN and start pulling all sorts of awesome, mysterious crap all over the place that will no doubt drive us all mad trying to figure out what's going on.

[Feast of the Muse]

Also if Magnus returns right from the start of the episode, there would be no reason for Will to be made acting head of the network (which, I so do not get. There's no one more senior amongst the other sanctuary heads? Really?).

Although, I do expect her to come back towards the end of the ep, final act maybe, to pop back up all SURPRISE YOU'LL NEVER GUESS WHERE I'VE BEEN and start pulling all sorts of awesome, mysterious crap all over the place that will no doubt drive us all mad trying to figure out what's going on.

You know, I think a lot of the other house heads were killed by Ashley and her crew. The network was sort of struggling after that, combining houses and such. I wouldn't be surprised if Will WAS actually one of the most informed, seeing that he had Helen to pat him on the head for so long. (And I am by no means a Will fan.)

[Steff]

You know, I think a lot of the other house heads were killed by Ashley and her crew. The network was sort of struggling after that, combining houses and such. I wouldn't be surprised if Will WAS actually one of the most informed, seeing that he had Helen to pat him on the head for so long. (And I am by no means a Will fan.)

Yeah, I hear ya. But I am going to try this next week to give him one more chance at being the Will "I" want him to be. That person is in my head, I just wished the writers and Robin could see it. It is an amazing character you all would adore. And in no way resembles a teenager.

[Feast of the Muse]

Pretty sure I have much the same unrealized idea of that character, Steff. More studious, not so bossy, not so easily riled... Someone less *reactive* in general.

[Steff]

Pretty sure I have much the same unrealized idea of that character, Steff. More studious, not so bossy, not so easily riled... Someone less *reactive* in general.

That is it.... he does seem to be in constant vexation mood against work. The whole thing that it is good for Will to call Helen on things is old. He just comes across as the teenager that you just asked to mow the lawn and he complains about how stupid Mom and Dad are.

[majorsal]

i appreciated the season 1 will more. more serious, wore the glasses :p, so on.

as soon as he rode a motorcycle and did the cool hair thing, i started seeing more robin in will than will. :p

[Steff]

i appreciated the season 1 will more. more serious, wore the glasses :p, so on.

as soon as he rode a motorcycle and did the cool hair thing, i started seeing more robin in will than will. :p

And Less Robin is the key. It is amazing that Amanda and others, such as some on Stargate, are able to joke up to the minute they call Action and immediately transform into character. But Robin stays himself way too many times for me to see the Will of season 1 that I thought had potential. And I never thought I would say this about a cute looking guy but if I see his arse one more time I will not be responsible for the violent reaction that will escape my being.

[selene0789]

And Less Robin is the key. It is amazing that Amanda and others, such as some on Stargate, are able to joke up to the minute they call Action and immediately transform into character. But Robin stays himself way too many times for me to see the Will of season 1 that I thought had potential. And I never thought I would say this about a cute looking guy but if I see his arse one more time I will not be responsible for the violent reaction that will escape my being.

I don't think he's so bad. But I do agree he's devolved since Season 1. Kinda like Tony on NCIS, who's a caricature of the character he used to be in the earlier seasons.

If they want Will to have the weight he's meant to have, calling Magnus out on stuff and all that, then he needs to step up. Otherwise, he's an overindulged child. Hopefully this week's episode will allow us to see a bit of Will stepping up. I don't know why Declan wouldn't try to be head of the global network (possibly cuz he just doesn't want to deal with the coming $#!*storm first hand, I think) but if they're gonna defer to Will, then he better measure up.

And I also have to wonder, how much of Will might be changed by the flap of the butterfly's wings that was Adam's and Magnus' trip back in time. Maybe this will give them a chance to flip a switch on his character and go "There. Better!Will is locked and loaded. Aaaaaand ACTION!"

But of course, that's all speculation.

[Skydiver]

I agree about Will. It's like in s1 Robin was serious about doing a job....then in season 2 and 3 the 'boys club' set up with him and ryan and damian and martin and they started having so much fun that Robin gets lost in the fun and we get Assistant Goofball, tossing tizzies and throwing tantrums. It's like as helen gets older he gets younger. then you get episodes with the focus on Will and we get 'gems' like date night. :rolleyes:

stop trying to MAKE him cool and fit in or whatever and just let him be....and tell Robin to stop goofing around and do a JOB instead of a joke.

that was one thing I liked about Kate....prior to her Will was the 'baby' of the sanctuary. He was the new guy so was taken care of and catered to. but iwth Kate there he had to grow up a bit. (like how Teal'c in s6 went from token alien making 'what is an oprah' jokes to big brother to jonas). Will needs to grow up and stay grown up. He can still have fun, just stop being the goof. it's old and tiring

[Kilgharrah]

...Will needs to grow up and stay grown up. He can still have fun, just stop being the goof. it's old and tiring
I'll give you another solution.
What if the replaced Robin Dunne with a good actor? That would be great. Or maybe even remmove the character of Will. Like kill him off or something. Yeah that would be a huge relief.

[lillypilly]

You know, I think a lot of the other house heads were killed by Ashley and her crew. The network was sort of struggling after that, combining houses and such. I wouldn't be surprised if Will WAS actually one of the most informed, seeing that he had Helen to pat him on the head for so long. (And I am by no means a Will fan.)

He's the most central to what's happening, I'll give him that. Didn't we see other heads of house in the Kali arc, though? Not all of them were killed by the Cabal, and even then, of the seconds who took over most of them would have more time with the Sanctuary than Will. But anyway, I know it comes down to the needs of the plot to put him in charge, it just kind of bugs me. :rolleyes:

[selene0789]

I'll give you another solution.
What if the replaced Robin Dunne with a good actor? That would be great. Or maybe even remmove the character of Will. Like kill him off or something. Yeah that would be a huge relief.

NO MORE DEATHS!

My poor little fangirl heart wouldn't be able to take it!