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View Full Version : The civilizatioin they created on Novus: Libertarian or Socialist?



RJLCyberPunk
April 26th, 2011, 04:47 PM
So what kind of civilization and society was created on Novus? One based on Libertarianism and free Enterprise or one based on Collectivism/Socialism? What do you think?

Nth Chevron
April 26th, 2011, 04:51 PM
I would say, at first collectivism, a small group of people surviving and building an infrastructure from scratch?

Definitely collectivism, with that small a group, what affects 1 can pretty much have knock on effects.

As the size of the population grew, i dont know, i would say they kept striving forward as a united civilastion against the Futurans and for science, whilst the Futurans most likely did the same.

N.C

blueray
April 26th, 2011, 04:59 PM
i imagine that it started off with a shared community type government. but as the population grew there most likely was a division in classes, with people owning more than others or a capitalism society. that being said without the corrupt business corporation maybe the differences between the classes aren't as drastic as they are in the us.

KEK
April 26th, 2011, 05:10 PM
I don't see them really subjecting each other to a capitalist system, at least early on. As they developed later on though is anyone's guess. I suppose with a relatively small population and the ethics passed on from the crew (hopefully democracy but you never know with Young) that they'd have a social liberalist society. A lot can happen in 2000 years though, so who knows.

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 26th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Hey, Scott was building a house for himself, Chloe and his children. That indicates private property and private property rights. I agree that early on it was probably communial for survival but later I imagine a more normal capitalist system arose.

morrismike
April 26th, 2011, 05:19 PM
So long as there aren't any freeloaders from the beginning they have a good shot. It's scary to think what America would be if 45% of the population weren't weaseling out of income tax.

Gollumpus
April 26th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Hey, Scott was building a house for himself, Chloe and his children. That indicates private property and private property rights. I agree that early on it was probably communial for survival but later I imagine a more normal capitalist system arose.

"Normal" capitalist system? Nice to know that the children would have work... (shudder)

The author of the constitution was Wray. What might she have put in to such a document? That would give us an idea of what kind of society they have.

regards,
G.

garhkal
April 26th, 2011, 06:02 PM
I'd say rushist!

Gollumpus
April 26th, 2011, 06:24 PM
I'd say rushist!

Yes, but would they be white Rushians or black Rushians?

regards,
G.

Nth Chevron
April 27th, 2011, 05:07 AM
Oh snap lol

N.C

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 27th, 2011, 05:22 AM
Gollumpus,


Yes, but would they be white Rushians or black Rushians?

regards,
G.

They're all just beverages... man.

garhkal
April 27th, 2011, 03:48 PM
As long as rush gets his Guinness, i don't think he would care

Python
April 27th, 2011, 04:02 PM
It was a military dictatorship. Young was giving the order to build a fence instead of settling elsewhere, so they built a fence. You could also argue that it was socialist, from each according to his need.

The episode had a really dim view of human nature, positing a split between two civilizations that hated each other over ideology, only to come to their senses in the face of natural disaster and "cooperate." Any time you hear the word "cooperation" as a solution to anything, that's a code word for subjugation.

Nemises
April 27th, 2011, 04:29 PM
It was a military dictatorship. Young was giving the order to build a fence instead of settling elsewhere, so they built a fence. You could also argue that it was socialist, from each according to his need.

The episode had a really dim view of human nature, positing a split between two civilizations that hated each other over ideology, only to come to their senses in the face of natural disaster and "cooperate." Any time you hear the word "cooperation" as a solution to anything, that's a code word for subjugation.

They had elections.

And yes it was probably socialist.

They also had free health care from what i can see. :jack_new_anime06:

Eestlanna
April 28th, 2011, 10:55 AM
So what kind of civilization and society was created on Novus? One based on Libertarianism and free Enterprise or one based on Collectivism/Socialism? What do you think?
Perhaps Conservatism? They valued the lifestyle they used to know on Earth and sticked to it. Or so it seemed. And they definitely valued their heritage.

Duneknight
April 28th, 2011, 11:27 AM
wouldve been cool if there was a revolution at some point against Young.

Keeper
April 28th, 2011, 11:30 AM
wouldve been cool if there was a revolution at some point against Young.

didn't you watch the kino diaries?


brody's bunch made Futura.


2000 years later they are (as stated in common descent) capable of nuclear war, and a little over 30 years before the episode the tensions betweent hem were pretty high.

threatening to wipe out young's descendants is about as big a revolution as you can have.

Duneknight
April 28th, 2011, 11:35 AM
didn't you watch the kino diaries?


brody's bunch made Futura.


2000 years later they are (as stated in common descent) capable of nuclear war, and a little over 30 years before the episode the tensions betweent hem were pretty high.

threatening to wipe out young's descendants is about as big a revolution as you can have.

they didnt show that in the kino. i know it happened but why couldnt they show that tension in full force in the kino?? Anyway a separation is not the same as a revolution. And we still don't really know why that took place (damn kids wont get off his lawn?).

Keeper
April 28th, 2011, 11:44 AM
they didnt show that in the kino.actually they did show the departure - at least, from chloe's point of view.
i know it happened but why couldnt they show that tension in full force in the kino??time, and the tensions may have taken a few generations to develop fully - nuclear weapons don't happen in a day or two. and the kino diaries were of the crew, not their descendants.
Anyway a separation is not the same as a revolution.isn't it? if a chunk of whatever country you're in decided to set up it's own government, laws et cetera, you wouldn't call that a revolution? local, yes, but it IS a revolution.

over time, having your country develop equally well as the mother country, and being able to point weapons at each other equally, says that brody's little walkout did develop into a solid community, not something that was just a bit of heat that was forgotten about. they did more than fine without young, or his people - they did well enough to challenge young's country.

And we still don't really know why that took place (damn kids wont get off his lawn?).actually, we do have a pretty good idea. from the start, he was tense, always waiting for rush to save them. he was fighting with eli, blaming everyone else for the disaster - and the smartest guy on the planet IS eli (stated several times over several episodes in the past that the SGC people see eli as an equal in brainpower - and mckay having a polite conversation with anyone, without trying to show them as stupid, is a shining example of it.)

Ser Scot A Ellison
April 28th, 2011, 01:27 PM
Keeper,


isn't it? if a chunk of whatever country you're in decided to set up it's own government, laws et cetera, you wouldn't call that a revolution? local, yes, but it IS a revolution.

No, it's really not. Particularly, if the moved a long way from the original settlement. They staked their own claim to true Terra Nova over which the original community has never had any control.

LordRush
April 29th, 2011, 10:50 AM
didn't you watch the kino diaries?


brody's bunch made Futura.


2000 years later they are (as stated in common descent) capable of nuclear war, and a little over 30 years before the episode the tensions betweent hem were pretty high.

threatening to wipe out young's descendants is about as big a revolution as you can have.

I remember Brody was pretty pissed at Eli. Him and others probably got sick and tired of Young barking orders and telling them what to do 'FIX IT NAO! DONT ANALYZE IT JUST FIX IT'! along with other reasons let the revolution commence!

Duneknight
April 29th, 2011, 12:25 PM
I remember Brody was pretty pissed at Eli. Him and others probably got sick and tired of Young barking orders and telling them what to do 'FIX IT NAO! DONT ANALYZE IT JUST FIX IT'! along with other reasons let the revolution commence!

yes i remember the one also about where to build the colony. Brody wanted to stay away from the flat lands. We are supposed to believe that was the reason they were gonna nuke each other into oblivion.

Keeper
April 29th, 2011, 12:35 PM
yes i remember the one also about where to build the colony. Brody wanted to stay away from the flat lands. We are supposed to believe that was the reason they were gonna nuke each other into oblivion.

the only reason? obviously not. it's supposed to show that there WAS a lot of tension between brody and several others in the group though - and that it was there from the start.

if you've ever worked in a group where 2 people just don't get along, from day 1, then it's pretty uncomfortable for everyone there. but it's even worse when one person just doesn't get along with ANYbody in the entire group, and the tension will grow, sometimes despite any tries to fix it.

young stepped in to keep things civil, but he also hoped they were adult enough to get over it. do that a few times, realise that people aren't going to change, and it can be a bit too late to sit down to talk to them about it - just hope it doesn't get any worse. in this case, it obviously did.

the nukes wouldn't have come from the first, few generations, at least - they'd have taken time to get there. over that time, the two groups have plenty of time to come up with more reasons not to like each other. that;s their stories though - the kino diaries were mainly just the stories of the original settlers.

Duneknight
April 29th, 2011, 12:58 PM
I just wish they had illustrated to us how that tension developed.

Keeper
April 29th, 2011, 01:20 PM
in the time allocated, it would have been impossible to accurately document 2000 years of history. not to mention that they'd have to hire people to play various parts.

use your imagination, or look around you. it really isn't difficult to think up a few reasons - and tbh, if the writers considered that, they probably thought the same. there doesn't need to be a factual story for everything that happened on novus, they showed the beginning and described the end result.

Duneknight
April 29th, 2011, 01:38 PM
in the time allocated, it would have been impossible to accurately document 2000 years of history. not to mention that they'd have to hire people to play various parts.

use your imagination, or look around you. it really isn't difficult to think up a few reasons - and tbh, if the writers considered that, they probably thought the same. there doesn't need to be a factual story for everything that happened on novus, they showed the beginning and described the end result.

they couldve had Brody's colony get into scuffles with Young's people. Like the stuff we seen in LOST.

Keeper
April 29th, 2011, 01:46 PM
they couldve had Brody's colony get into scuffles with Young's people. Like the stuff we seen in LOST.

1. wrong show.

2. timing. also, while brody, young, and the rest of the original colonists were alive, they probably tried to stay apart a bit more. they'd have been able to find enough resources for basic civilisation without stepping on each others toes. growth and needs would have done more than young and brody to destabalise things.

morrismike
April 30th, 2011, 11:20 AM
wouldve been cool if there was a revolution at some point against Young.
What would be the point?

morrismike
April 30th, 2011, 11:21 AM
yes i remember the one also about where to build the colony. Brody wanted to stay away from the flat lands. We are supposed to believe that was the reason they were gonna nuke each other into oblivion.

Brody was just being smart. Floodplains are a bad place to live.

morrismike
April 30th, 2011, 11:23 AM
I just wish they had illustrated to us how that tension developed.

I'm sure quite a few of them were whiners. It appeared that Young had no beef with them leaving. It's pretty obvious the truly valuable folks didn't leave.

Keeper
April 30th, 2011, 11:29 AM
I'm sure quite a few of them were whiners. It appeared that Young had no beef with them leaving. It's pretty obvious the truly valuable folks didn't leave.

to be fair, he couldn't really stop them - it's a big world, and diary-chloe's mention of young being re-elected suggests a democracy of some sort. to force them to stay would have given them more support.

morrismike
April 30th, 2011, 11:34 AM
to be fair, he couldn't really stop them - it's a big world, and diary-chloe's mention of young being re-elected suggests a democracy of some sort. to force them to stay would have given them more support.

Truthfully they were all pretty tired of the nonsense and gave the whiners a swift kick in the rear as they left.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
May 1st, 2011, 07:43 AM
Socialist Hopefully :D.

jackfloyd1973
May 18th, 2011, 01:11 AM
as was already mentioned, young was re-elected implying reasonable level of approval towards how he did things in governance. his orders to do things like fix it or build a fence were in an emergency situation, and those things suited everyones interests. with a gradual normalization on the planet and hopefully a move to free market (not to be confused with corporatist=corporations dictating laws) there would likely be a steady reduction in young's orders. since young wasn't interested in power he likely only ran for election out of the view that he can get things done right. there is likely libertarian influence since many of the crew knew what happens when government has to much power(greer once mentioned the evils of america's apartheid era). while there was scientific advances on novus since both countries were founded by groups with a lot of scientists, it's possible that non-military science could have been by free-market because without government interference there is incentive for scientific advances, the populations by referendum might have approved a tax to fund science, or research was financed by state governments since the planet had a large population and states rights(not the code word used for evil ends, just limited federal government) in things like scientific research is consistent with libertarianism. there is also the fact that no one really cared that wray's a lesbian, basically considering that a personal matter, which is both a liberal and libertarian viewpoint

this is based on my being a free market libertarian, and there are numerous varieties of libertarian, even socialists