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GateWorld
September 18th, 2009, 01:27 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/fringe/s3/subject-13/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/subject-13-160x120.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">FRINGE SEASON THREE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/fringe/s3/subject-13/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SUBJECT 13</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 315</FONT>
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In 1985 Walter conducts experiments on a young Olivia Dunham in the hopes of finding a way to cross between worlds and return Peter -- who is convinced that Elizabeth is not his real mother. In the other universe, Walter and his wife grieve the inexplicable loss of their son.

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hellrasinb
February 25th, 2011, 09:17 PM
... So the follow up to Season 2s "Peter" picks up 6 months after Walter took Peter from the other Universe. In this return to 1985 we learn several "key" plots that both worlds Olivia Dunhams have the ability to cross over but that our worlds Olivia ability to cross between worlds was activated through Cortexophan. Both Olivia's had abusive fathers and its obvious that both Olivias during the 6 month period had contact with peter on Earth 1. And once Walternate sees Olivia's drawing of her and Peter Walter realizes where his son is....

DigiFluid
February 25th, 2011, 09:42 PM
The little girl who played Olivia in this one was fantastic. It's really no secret that I have no love for child actors, but I thought she did a wonderful job of capturing Anna Torv. Loved the retro intro credits too :)

The soft focus all episode long though, good god. I don't know if there was something wrong with my FOX reception tonight or if it was a stylistic choice to do a 'memory effect', but either way I felt like my eyes were going to bleed by the end :eek:

Aussie_86
February 25th, 2011, 10:17 PM
Both Olivia's do not have the ability to Cross-Over. When our Olivia ran into Walter's Office, she crossed over to the other side. She then told Walternate that she crosses over into the other universe when her dad hit her. She then went back to our universe (that is why Walter went from sitting at his desk, to standing at the doorway, asking Olivia what she was doing). That is why, a few scenes later, Walternate rings his wife saying "I know what happened to Peter" - because OUR Olivia accidentally crossed over and told him. She also gave him her book of drawings from our side - which had a picture of her and Peter in it.

DigiFluid
February 25th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Both Olivia's do not have the ability to Cross-Over. When our Olivia ran into Walter's Office, she crossed over to the other side. She then told Walternate that she crosses over into the other universe when her dad hit her. She then went back to our universe (that is why Walter went from sitting at his desk, to standing at the doorway, asking Olivia what she was doing). That is why, a few scenes later, Walternate rings his wife saying "I know what happened to Peter" - because OUR Olivia accidentally crossed over and told him. She also gave him her book of drawings from our side - which had a picture of her and Peter in it.
Indeed. I didn't quite catch this at first, I had to think on it before I realized this.

MattSilver 3k
February 25th, 2011, 11:47 PM
... So the follow up to Season 2s "Peter" picks up 6 months after Walter took Peter from the other Universe. In this return to 1985 we learn several "key" plots that both worlds Olivia Dunhams have the ability to cross over but that our worlds Olivia ability to cross between worlds was activated through Cortexophan. Both Olivia's had abusive fathers and its obvious that both Olivias during the 6 month period had contact with peter on Earth 1. And once Walternate sees Olivia's drawing of her and Peter Walter realizes where his son is....


Both Olivia's do not have the ability to Cross-Over. When our Olivia ran into Walter's Office, she crossed over to the other side. She then told Walternate that she crosses over into the other universe when her dad hit her. She then went back to our universe (that is why Walter went from sitting at his desk, to standing at the doorway, asking Olivia what she was doing). That is why, a few scenes later, Walternate rings his wife saying "I know what happened to Peter" - because OUR Olivia accidentally crossed over and told him. She also gave him her book of drawings from our side - which had a picture of her and Peter in it.

Congratulations, you both know how to summarise the episode we just saw...

Great episode, nice bit of exploration into the past which I always love, some awesome John Noble stuff (As expected, of course!), and I'll do my hivemind thing with Digi again and say that the girl playing young Olivia was fantastic. I swear she did that same shy Olivia hair movement thing I've seen Anna do, in the exact same way. Props to her for that.

Oh, and the return of the 80's credits! Good stuff.

Commander Zelix
February 26th, 2011, 03:52 AM
Great episode this week. The little girl playing young Olivia was great too. She even had some of our Olivia/Torv mannerism. The episode was not as pivotal or as good as "Peter" was, but it was a solid sci-fi story about people, choices and dilemmas. Personally, I think season 3 is hitting the stories on all cylinder. While a completely different story (with more answers and new mysteries), the story telling remind me of Lost more and more. Hopefully, they'll keep developing the mysteries and storyline in a logical way (unlike Lost which ended in a confusing way too trapped up in it's own mythology to make a logical ending). It's when the storyline is solid (and not a jumbled mess) that the character reactions makes more sense and have more impact. If not it becomes melodramatic scenes after another with no logical progression, no impact because we can't feel and understand their dilemma (a bit like Lost toward the end). Sure a mother crying with her death child in her arms is sad, but it's much more compelling when it's part of a logical progression of the story. Let the story drive the show while studying the impact on the characters (and people, groups, society, governments, etc).

pjt
February 26th, 2011, 04:58 AM
It was a great episode, but now they need to make another one and tell us, why they don't remember this. Peter meeting a girl named Olivia in a white tulip field, and Olivia meeting a boy whom she told about her burning the tulips is something you would remember.

MattSilver 3k
February 26th, 2011, 05:14 AM
It was a great episode, but now they need to make another one and tell us, why they don't remember this. Peter meeting a girl named Olivia in a white tulip field, and Olivia meeting a boy whom she told about her burning the tulips is something you would remember.

There are three options here: The first is that it's just trauma. Think about what they go through after all this - Olivia nearly murders her step-father and is haunted by that all through her teens, her mother dies, Rachel starts going through her stuff, and then by the time she's in the pilot she's dealing with the whole John trauma. Peter, meanwhile, probably spends the next few years convinced he's crazy about the whole other universe thing, and then has his mother drink herself to death over the course of his teenage years.

That, or it's another mystery to be answered.

That, or writer's retcon. I'll let this one slide, personally. I don't exactly watch the show for the attention to detail on the tiny things, really.

Ian-S
February 26th, 2011, 03:26 PM
good episode, but the fake-3d-blurring in some of the scenes in the log cabin really gave me a headache, I don't remember tv being that bad quality in 1985, maybe if you're aerial was pointing on the wrong polarity, but not under normal circumstances.

DigiFluid
February 26th, 2011, 03:41 PM
I don't think it was fake 3D-ing, they were just going for that fuzzy poor 80s video quality and 'memory effect'. I hated that, it made my eyes hurt.

the fifth man
February 26th, 2011, 08:17 PM
I don't think it was fake 3D-ing, they were just going for that fuzzy poor 80s video quality and 'memory effect'. I hated that, it made my eyes hurt.

I did not catch that. I honestly thought my reception was kind of bad.

DigiFluid
February 26th, 2011, 08:18 PM
I did not catch that. I honestly thought my reception was kind of bad.
That's what I thought too, watching it on TV. So I went and 'acquired' it in 720p, and it was still there. Definitely part of the episode :S

Sp!der
February 27th, 2011, 12:10 PM
I thought as well this episode was fantastic, I waited for such an episode to explain the past. Too bad we didn't get to see William bell. Other than that it was really good. John noble is awesome and the little Olivia as well!!!

Eternal Density
February 27th, 2011, 04:57 PM
What Sp!der said.
This was an awesome episode, and I hope that Olivia and Peter will remember this some time.
I wonder whether Olivia will ever learn that her accidental crossing over is what tipped off Walternate and enabled the whole war to start. Ouch.

It was very interesting to see the interactions between the Walters and their respective wives. Especially how and the end Peter's not-mother couldn't handle having successfully lied to him and took to drinking. We know how that turned out...
(and Walter warning Olivia's step-dad to not hurt her again, we know how that turned out...)

the fifth man
February 27th, 2011, 05:57 PM
I really enjoyed this episode. I love all the backstory we are starting to get.

Commander Zelix
March 1st, 2011, 02:56 AM
There are three options here: The first is that it's just trauma. Think about what they go through after all this - Olivia nearly murders her step-father and is haunted by that all through her teens, her mother dies, Rachel starts going through her stuff, and then by the time she's in the pilot she's dealing with the whole John trauma. Peter, meanwhile, probably spends the next few years convinced he's crazy about the whole other universe thing, and then has his mother drink herself to death over the course of his teenage years.

That, or it's another mystery to be answered.

That, or writer's retcon. I'll let this one slide, personally. I don't exactly watch the show for the attention to detail on the tiny things, really.

A poster in another forum post the ultimate answer about all this. Clearly it was intended that way by the writers from the beginning. It's not trauma.

This is an excerpt from the episode "Bad Dreams". The episode case is about Nick, the little boy with the teddy bear in Subject 13, who is an reverse-empath that end up at the top of a building ready to commit suicide with other people in tow when Olivia try to reach to him at the top of the building. And they have this conversation:




NICK LANE: Olive. You heard me. You heard me - you came. You were always the strong one. Whenever I got scared, you could make me feel better. Do you remember, Olive? [edit: nice set up for the teddy bear moment in Subject 13 were Olivia did made him feel better]
OLIVIA: I’m sorry, no, I don't.
NICK LANE: That’s okay. I think they meant for us to forget. I just couldn't. I did what they told us. I waited Olive. The soldier to come is both natural and unnatural. I waited to be called up. You stay fit; stay focused, and stay ready. I wore the blacks and grays. I blended in. But the call never came. It never came. Then, that man with the glasses, he showed up at the hospital. He spoke all the old words. He said they're coming. He needed warriors. He said... "what was written will come to pass." He said he knew how to wake me up. I shouldn't have listened to him. Sometimes what we wake up, it can't be put back to sleep.

Clearly Nick is referring to the fact that somehow (which is a scientific detail like hypnoses or synapse altering device) they made the cortexiphan trials children forget about the experiments and that their memory and abilities can be re-activated at the proper time (when the war begins).

I re-watch the episode "Bad dream" from season 1. It's really fun to rewatch some episodes from previous seasons with the depth and multiple layers brought up by season 3. It makes you appreciate them differently and even more.

I wonder who that man with the glasses is...

magictrick
March 1st, 2011, 08:13 AM
Ok there is no way that Peter would not remember this happening. Or the fact that he strongly believed he was from another universe. Olivia not remembering it I can buy just because of all she went through. But with Peter it is different, and he was at the age where children remember this kind of stuff. Maybe he wouldn't remember meeting Olivia, but the part about universes would definitely stick with him.

It was great that they showed us this, but that part just annoyed me.

DigiFluid
March 1st, 2011, 09:02 AM
Maybe we'll get a Part 3 that explains it.

Commander Zelix
March 1st, 2011, 05:11 PM
Ok there is no way that Peter would not remember this happening. Or the fact that he strongly believed he was from another universe. Olivia not remembering it I can buy just because of all she went through. But with Peter it is different, and he was at the age where children remember this kind of stuff. Maybe he wouldn't remember meeting Olivia, but the part about universes would definitely stick with him.

It was great that they showed us this, but that part just annoyed me.
First, let's just repeat that all cortexiphan children were made to forget about the experiments. This may include Peter.

But I think exactly the reverse that you. I would say that it's completely possible for Peter to forget about the other world and all that. At one time, Peter simply accepted that it was a far and distant childhood fantasy. Same as Peter and Olivia forgetting about each other. The only reason is because they were so young.

But no way Olivia would have forgot ALL about many years of cortexiphan experiments. You may not remember you second grade teacher or very vaguely, but you do remember your primary school a bit. Since she was a child, maybe she wouldn't remember the details of the experiments (since it's like a play) but she would remember some vague thing about it. Hence why cortexiphan children were made to forget about it.

-------------

On a slightly different subject here some nice quote for the episode Bad Dream:


WALTER: It worked on perception. Carlos Castaneda, Aldus Huxley, Werner Heisenberg, all focused on one single elementary truth. Perception is the key to transformation.

PETER: Reality is both subjective and malleable. If you can dream a better world, you can make a better world.

WALTER: Or perhaps travel between them. [edit: mmmm, foreshadowing]

PETER: What did you just say?

Clearly Peter didn't forget all about what his "mother" told him.

magictrick
March 2nd, 2011, 07:36 AM
But no way Olivia would have forgot ALL about many years of cortexiphan experiments. You may not remember you second grade teacher or very vaguely, but you do remember your primary school a bit. Since she was a child, maybe she wouldn't remember the details of the experiments (since it's like a play) but she would remember some vague thing about it. Hence why cortexiphan children were made to forget about it.


I wonder how old they are supposed to be in that episode. I know I remember all my grade school teachers and some of the significant events that happened during that period.

LtColCarter
March 2nd, 2011, 08:45 AM
I wonder how old they are supposed to be in that episode. I know I remember all my grade school teachers and some of the significant events that happened during that period.

Well, you go with your super memory powers! :) In the episode Ability, Olivia said she was 3 in 1981...so in 1985 she would be 7. So I could see how she would forget some things. And don't forget, that sometimes our mind blocks out trauma.

jmoz
March 2nd, 2011, 10:05 AM
I find myself liking Walter less and less for some reason, experimenting on kids. Doing that to Peter. Hopefully they explain what happens in the past that ties into the future rather than giving character insight.

Retro intro's awesome though. They should have one for every decade.

LtColCarter
March 2nd, 2011, 10:56 AM
I find myself liking Walter less and less for some reason, experimenting on kids. Doing that to Peter. Hopefully they explain what happens in the past that ties into the future rather than giving character insight.

Retro intro's awesome though. They should have one for every decade.

I don't hold it against Walter now. He's a different person now.

Commander Zelix
March 3rd, 2011, 06:19 PM
I find myself liking Walter less and less for some reason, experimenting on kids. Doing that to Peter. Hopefully they explain what happens in the past that ties into the future rather than giving character insight.

There's no doubt that Walter's immoral experiments on children is part of the story. Walter must have realized he had become a monster too because he asked Bell to remove part of his brain because he was afraid of what he was becoming. I wonder how radical, or not, Walter will become now that he's trying to revive the part of this brain that were missing. I think "the ends justify the means" will become Walter's favorite phrases in season 4. :)

LtColCarter
March 4th, 2011, 08:09 AM
There's no doubt that Walter's immoral experiments on children is part of the story. Walter must have realized he had become a monster too because he asked Bell to remove part of his brain because he was afraid of what he was becoming. I wonder how radical, or not, Walter will become now that he's trying to revive the part of this brain that were missing. I think "the ends justify the means" will become Walter's favorite phrases in season 4. :)

As long as the "ends" isn't the end of our universe! ;)

Dusk
March 20th, 2011, 03:08 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed this, our second, blast from the past episode. Young Peter and Olivia were awesomely portrayed here. And whilst some of you hated the stylistic 80s cinematography, I have to say it was one of the highlights for me! Especially Walter's lab footage with Olivia, just brilliant. And details, details... right down to BSG, Ghostbusters and G.I. Joe toys in original packaging for the toy store.

I too am wondering how these kids could forget their time here, but as some have speculated there may be an incident which forces a memory block that we may see later. There's also the alleged suicide of Elizabeth and Olivia's evil stepfather (who finally makes an appearance!) and the whole incident with him when she was nine.

Love. Ing. It.

Huaracocha
June 3rd, 2011, 07:38 PM
I can buy Nick's explanation that the Cortexephan kids were made to forget. As for Peter, he had been very ill for a very long time as we are often reminded. So it's quite plausible he would have had a lot of jumbled and confused memories from his early childhood. Combine that with constantly being told he was dreaming it, later trauma and his (presumed) natural desire to accept the scenario being given to him by his 'parents' and it's possible he'd forget / bury the "I'm from another universe" fantasy.

Not remembering meeting Olivia, rescuing her etc is much more of a stretch to me. I don't buy he'd forget that naturally - especially when confronted with the facts already established about the Cortexephan trials and Olivia's involvement. It's not a huge leap to think that Walter may have suppressed his memories of Olivia too I guess but it is a bit of one. Maybe it will become clear in the future.. or should that be the past!

LtColCarter
June 7th, 2011, 07:06 AM
I can buy Nick's explanation that the Cortexephan kids were made to forget. As for Peter, he had been very ill for a very long time as we are often reminded. So it's quite plausible he would have had a lot of jumbled and confused memories from his early childhood. Combine that with constantly being told he was dreaming it, later trauma and his (presumed) natural desire to accept the scenario being given to him by his 'parents' and it's possible he'd forget / bury the "I'm from another universe" fantasy.

Not remembering meeting Olivia, rescuing her etc is much more of a stretch to me. I don't buy he'd forget that naturally - especially when confronted with the facts already established about the Cortexephan trials and Olivia's involvement. It's not a huge leap to think that Walter may have suppressed his memories of Olivia too I guess but it is a bit of one. Maybe it will become clear in the future.. or should that be the past!

I agree with you here.