What Vorlons really look like

[nx01a]

http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Not-a-Happy-Vorlon-134868303
A very nice rendering of a complete non-corporeal Vorlon, both happy... and enraged.http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs27/i/2009/238/f/a/Not_a_Happy_Vorlon_by_The_First_Magelord.jpg

[Spimman]

You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels? ;) :p

[Cold Fuzz]

http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Not-a-Happy-Vorlon-134868303
A very nice rendering of a complete non-corporeal Vorlon, both happy... and enraged.http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs27/i/2009/238/f/a/Not_a_Happy_Vorlon_by_The_First_Magelord.jpg

I always thought that the Vorlons' ships gave a little bit of a hint as to their true appearance. Even after they were revealed as angels, I knew there had to be something more to them and the squid theme prevalent to their ships was a good reflection of their true physical form.


You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels? ;) :p

According to JMS, there is a physicality to them. His personal view on them is that since Vorlons do tend to reflect, refract, and emit light, that they're nominally crystalline in their way. This was pointed at in "The Gathering" with the poison fluorazine which was used to poison Kosh. It was supposed to be a crystal-based poison.

In "Falling Toward Apotheosis" we saw Ulkesh striking out against B5 security—as in physically hitting them. Of course, Ulkesh also showed us a bit of his telepathic and telekinetic abilities in that same episode.

[SaberBlade]

You don't think they're at least somewhat corporeal?

I thought they looked like angels? ;) :p

Angels are what they genetically engineered people to see them as (when they made the conscious effort to be corporeal) but they looked like that render as seen when Kosh fights Ulkesh when Sheridan returns to B5. We didn't get to see all the first ones, but Lorien had two different forms, the Vorlons, the Shadows did (as it let them go invisible), the future humans (they looked like smaller Loriens). So it's possible all the First Ones, plus the future Minbari (as I remember reading that only humans and minbari reached the evolutionary stage of First Ones) had their real form, plus another form they could turn into.

[Jeffala]

(as I remember reading that only humans and minbari reached the evolutionary stage of First Ones)

In "Midnight on the Firing Line", Kosh tells Sinclair that, "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass." When asked if he was referring to the Centauri or the Narn, Kosh's only response was, "Yes."

It could be possible that the only races that reached the evolutionary level of the First Ones were the humans and the Minbari, but this is probably a discussion for another thread.

[Cold Fuzz]

I think this will help clarify things about about the Vorlons. :)

JMS' comments on the true appearance of Vorlons:

Have we seen a Vorlon's true appearance?
That's pretty much what they look like.

Why didn't Ulkesh project an illusion?
Because it takes concentration to pull it off, and Kosh2 was kinda distracted....
The encounter suit was mainly to mask them.
The idea was to short out and "crack" the suit, getting the vorlon out, so the last of Kosh and Lorien and Sheridan could deal with him in a weakened and more vulnerable state.

The Vorlons looked a bit like Shadows.
I didn't think they looked that much alike. But then, no two people ever see Vorlons in quite the same way, I guess.

If Vorlons are amorphous energy beings, how was Kosh poisoned in "The Gathering?"
Remember, they do have a certain physicality about them, even in that form, and the nature of the poison was such that it would affect that kind of life form using a crystalline base (note in the pilot the screen reads analyzing crystalline structure, and you filter light or refract or distort it using a crystalline structure).

Silicon or crystalline based lifeforms are still lifeforms, just not the same as carbon-based lifeforms (like us).

Yes, that's a Vorlon...and there was a physicality to them, shown by the fact that it could strike out and hit things. It's not a ghost or anything of that nature, it can be hurt and killed.


JMS' comments about humans and Minbari evolving into beings like the First Ones:

Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.

What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

[nx01a]

When I realized that Kosh = Cthulhu, my sci-fi world just fell into place.

[Cold Fuzz]

When I realized that Kosh = Cthulhu, my sci-fi world just fell into place.

So that would mean that the ancient Cthulhu language would be a human's rendering of Vorlon? :P

[DigiFluid]

What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).
That's interesting; I don't know that I totally like it though. In my mind, I imagined the Narns of the distant future becoming more peaceful and zen due to the teachings of G'Kar.

And as for the Centauri, being so easily manipulated by the Shadows (Londo), then occupied for 17 years by the Drakh, and then having enough potential for aggressive war that Galen warned Sheridan (Lost Tales)....well, I always imagined that the Centauri would evolve into the successors of the Shadows.

[SaberBlade]

I always thought it was a bit presumptuous for JMS to make Humans and Minbari to reach that type of status, while the Centauri and Narn just hit some sort of evolutionary dead stop.

During season 1, Sinclair and Kosh had a conversation;

Kosh - They are a dying people.
Sinclair - Who, the Narn or the Centauri?
Kosh - Yes.

As the show went on, Kosh was correct. There didn't really seem to be much of a future for either race as several Centauri were single minded in their own ambition and it always lead their people on a very dangerous course. Reefa, Cartagia, even Londo. By the end of the series, they were screwed. The Narn on the other hand, G'Kar had given the real potential for his people to become something new and better.

G'Kar reminds me of Picard in The Next Generation. Q wanted to see if it were possible for Humans to become something more, and as such he annoyed Picard in pretty much every season of TNG (except for season 5) to see if Humans were able to "expand your mind and your horizons". G'Kar was the same. He was pretty stubborn and sure of his own self righteous desires for his people. That they were better, that they could do anything they want, they were right and the Centauri were wrong and they'd all die for revenge. Somewhere along the line G'Kar changed and his book, even though he never intended it, caused his people to change as well. Some were set in their ways but more and more Narn wanted to learn and become better.

So the Centauri I could understand, but the Narn are a surprise. I could have seen the Narn becoming somewhat like the Minbari, but rather than each Cast every Narn is a bit worker, warrior and religious.

[knowles2]

SaberBlade

I agree with you, I think Narn was given a chance to grow and change there culture by G'kar, and they seem to have taken it with both hands. An under the protection and help of the alliance I only see G'Kar teachings guiding his race into a bright future.

In fact I see them becoming Lorien like, trying to guide the different fractions of the great ones on the path which does not lead to a divide which happens with Vorlons and Shadow. An them being the ones to maintain the memory and knowledge of the Shadow and Vorlon war.

I do see the Centauri becoming the new shadows, as they seem to go from one war to the next it be easy for them to start to believe that war is the only way to become more evolve and a greater being and for other races to achieve the same.

[nx01a]

I think the Narn never went to First One status because of their Shadow-induced lack of telepaths/'mind walkers'. As for the Centauri... No idea.

[Galileo_Galilee]

Yeah. I view them somewhat like jellyfish.

[Huaracocha]

I think the Narn never went to First One status because of their Shadow-induced lack of telepaths/'mind walkers'. As for the Centauri... No idea.

Exactly what I was going to suggest! As for the Centauri, we know the Vorlon never modified them and, thanks to Londo's betrayal, it's possible the Shadows never rewarded them or took back gifts that would ultimately lead to ascension. Or maybe the Drakh ganked all their telepaths.

[Galileo_Galilee]

There were Centauri telepaths. Reeva used on on Vir trying to figure out what Londo was up to.

So yes, that means the Vorlons did modify the Centauri.

Because it was the Vorlons who gave the races telepathy and other powers in order to fight the Shadows.

[Huaracocha]

There were Centauri telepaths. Reeva used on on Vir trying to figure out what Londo was up to.

So yes, that means the Vorlons did modify the Centauri.

Because it was the Vorlons who gave the races telepathy and other powers in order to fight the Shadows.

Or the Shadows made the Centauri telepaths in order to fight the Vorlon..

I always inferred the Centauri were untouched by Vorlon hands since Londo saw nothing of flying-angel-Kosh when everyone else saw their own cultural angel figure. "Drubanka" :D etc. Did Kosh maybe say something about this at some point? I'd have to defer to someone with superior B5-verse knowledge on that though, can't really recall and haven't rewatched the show in some time.

EDIT - I like your sig by the way :) Should that be "sufficiently advanced" technology or is that a deliberately clever 'misquote'?

[Galileo_Galilee]

As far as I know, the shadows could not make telepaths. But they knew how to harness psionic abilities.


EDIT - I like your sig by the way Should that be "sufficiently advanced" technology or is that a deliberately clever 'misquote'?

My own update.

Because even today, with how common technology is, we still have people who reject technology. People call them Luddites, but really, Luddite was actually protesting the effect of depersonalizing everything rather than the technology itself.

It became a meme.

[Coco Pops]

I might have misses something along the way with Babylon 5 but how did Lorien lose influence on the Shadows and Vorlons with the Shadows becoming the aggressos that we saw in the show?

[Nth Chevron]

He didnt lose influence, he just stopped trying to interfere as the other First Ones got fed up and left, he realised that it was only going to be one of the non-first one races that would end the constant bickering of the Vorlons and the Shadows.

Remember Sheridans Kosh induced dream aboard the Stribe ship season 2;

".. The man in-between is searching for you .. "

Numerous times Lorien says things about between the moments, so naturally i assume it means Lorien, he was searching for Sheridan because he is a Nexus, either by design or by dumb luck, and could lead the younger races against BOTH of the philosophies forced upon them by the Shadows and Vorlons.

N.C

[SaberBlade]

He didnt lose influence, he just stopped trying to interfere as the other First Ones got fed up and left, he realised that it was only going to be one of the non-first one races that would end the constant bickering of the Vorlons and the Shadows.

Remember Sheridans Kosh induced dream aboard the Stribe ship season 2;

".. The man in-between is searching for you .. "

Numerous times Lorien says things about between the moments, so naturally i assume it means Lorien, he was searching for Sheridan because he is a Nexus, either by design or by dumb luck, and could lead the younger races against BOTH of the philosophies forced upon them by the Shadows and Vorlons.

N.C

Plus the Shadows continually returned to Za'ha'dum because they wanted to honour him (not sure sure honour was the word but same thing). They could have went to any planet over the countless millennia but Lorien was there so they returned to be with him. He just didn't interfere because his time had past.

[Nth Chevron]

They thought they were showing respect, but i suppose Honor and respect to the Shadows, such as it is, means pretty much the same thing - i.e "we wont kill you"

N.C

[DustyBadger]

I do believe that it is established that the Vorlons made all telepaths and in respons, or vice verse, the Shadows made the Technomages.

[Coco Pops]

I do believe that it is established that the Vorlons made all telepaths and in respons, or vice verse, the Shadows made the Technomages.

Is tht canon?

That's interesting

[DustyBadger]

Yes, that is canon. It's from the Technomage books. I never liked the Technomages in the show, but after reading the books I saw them in a very different light and now likes them a lot as they fit very well into the B5 universe.

[Coco Pops]

Yes, that is canon. It's from the Technomage books. I never liked the Technomages in the show, but after reading the books I saw them in a very different light and now likes them a lot as they fit very well into the B5 universe.


If they were all like Galen from Crusade I would have loved them more. But he's the only one that was ever really talkative with humans.

What role did they serve for the Shadows? I mean the show didn't really give that impression .....

[Cold Fuzz]

If they were all like Galen from Crusade I would have loved them more. But he's the only one that was ever really talkative with humans.

What role did they serve for the Shadows? I mean the show didn't really give that impression .....

I don't remember if the Technomages were specifically created to combat telepaths. I haven't read the Technomage Trilogy in a while. However, I do remember that the Shadows wanted them to sow destruction, treachery, and chaos though. The Tech, which is what they called their implants from the Shadows, amplifies traits like combativeness and malice. Consequently, the Technomages can sometimes be a particularly surly bunch. Galen transcended the Shadow programming in the Tech and started passing on what he learned to other mages.

[DustyBadger]

As with the telepaths I dont think the Technomages were litterarly meant to be servants, but just like the Vorlons the Shadows planted seeds out in the galaxy of things that would work in their favor.

And major Technomage-books spoiler warning


As mentioned above, the Mages gets much of their power from shadow-tech implants. And the origin of those implants was a well guarded secret even among the Mages. One of the big reasons they decided to leave known space before the Shadow war was that they knew what the inherited destructivness in would do if they got involved.

[Cold Fuzz]

As with the telepaths I dont think the Technomages were litterarly meant to be servants, but just like the Vorlons the Shadows planted seeds out in the galaxy of things that would work in their favor.

And major Technomage-books spoiler warning


As mentioned above, the Mages gets much of their power from shadow-tech implants. And the origin of those implants was a well guarded secret even among the Mages. One of the big reasons they decided to leave known space before the Shadow war was that they knew what the inherited destructivness in would do if they got involved.

Yep. I distinctly remember a scene where the Mages got new Shadow implants for their initiates. Their main contact was a Drakh that showed them how to install the implants but not necessarily how they worked.

[Coco Pops]

And don't forget the plague they were trying to cure in Crusade was made by a Technomage? I think we find this near the last episode when they examine the virus.. The show would have gotten more interesting had they not canned it.

[DustyBadger]

The show would have gotten more interesting had they not canned it.

Indeed. I've been listening to the B5 podcast talking about Crusade and reading the JMS books on the show, which is a receipt for frustration if any. Some of the unaired scrips sound like great episodes.

[Cold Fuzz]

And don't forget the plague they were trying to cure in Crusade was made by a Technomage? I think we find this near the last episode when they examine the virus.. The show would have gotten more interesting had they not canned it.

If you mean the Shadow plague that was used against Earth in the Drakh attack in "A Call to Arms" then no, it wasn't made by a Technomage. The Shadows used this plague against the planet depicted in "Racing the Night" and those people didn't find a cure, hence all the collection and testing.

In "The Memory of War" the Excalibur crew stumble upon a planet where its citizens killed each other. That was caused by a nanovirus created by a Technomage. The episode established that this nanovirus was substantially inferior technology than the Shadow plague. Now they're able to harvest the nanovirus and and reprogram it to create a shield against the Shadow plague but it would be effective for only 24 hours. Additionally, it was firmly established that the nanovirus shield was not a cure for the Shadow plague. It could only shield the uninfected for 24 hours. It could not actively destroy the Shadow plague once the plague had already infected a person and metastasized inside organic tissue.

The episodes after "Appearances and Other Deceits" would have started an arc about Earth Alliance secretly trying to create its own Technomages. It would also finally reveal the origins of the Technomages' Shadow implants. This was supposed to have caused a massive rift between Galen and Capt. Gideon.

[Coco Pops]

If you mean the Shadow plague that was used against Earth in the Drakh attack in "A Call to Arms" then no, it wasn't made by a Technomage. The Shadows used this plague against the planet depicted in "Racing the Night" and those people didn't find a cure, hence all the collection and testing.

In "The Memory of War" the Excalibur crew stumble upon a planet where its citizens killed each other. That was caused by a nanovirus created by a Technomage. The episode established that this nanovirus was substantially inferior technology than the Shadow plague. Now they're able to harvest the nanovirus and and reprogram it to create a shield against the Shadow plague but it would be effective for only 24 hours. Additionally, it was firmly established that the nanovirus shield was not a cure for the Shadow plague. It could only shield the uninfected for 24 hours. It could not actively destroy the Shadow plague once the plague had already infected a person and metastasized inside organic tissue.

The episodes after "Appearances and Other Deceits" would have started an arc about Earth Alliance secretly trying to create its own Technomages. It would also finally reveal the origins of the Technomages' Shadow implants. This was supposed to have caused a massive rift between Galen and Capt. Gideon.


My bad. It's been very long since I have seen that series and I was just going off memory.

But yeah I'm sure had they continued the series it could have gotten very interesting.

Did the Shadows create the implants, is that what you mean?

I loved their ship and the funky monorail thing inside.

[Cold Fuzz]

My bad. It's been very long since I have seen that series and I was just going off memory.

But yeah I'm sure had they continued the series it could have gotten very interesting.

Did the Shadows create the implants, is that what you mean?

I loved their ship and the funky monorail thing inside.

No worries. :) It's been a long time since I read the Technomage Trilogy and I may end up reading it soon. :D

The Shadows did indeed create the Tech (that is, the implants used by the Mages). Through the Drakh, they'd been distributing it to the Technomages since Valen's Shadow War. Technomage ships are a marvel indeed. The trilogy establishes that the ship has organic technology inside that binds the ship to whichever mage is operating it. It's not nearly as sophisticated as the Shadow or Vorlon warships but it's on par with the White Stars.

Had the series continued, I think they would've focused less on the plague as JMS gave hints that would've been cured rather early on in the plague. But the true "plague" so-to-speak is hinted at various Earth Alliance black ops groups that want to undermine the government, create their own Technomages, and possibly engineer a break from the Interstellar Alliance.

[Coco Pops]

No worries. :) It's been a long time since I read the Technomage Trilogy and I may end up reading it soon. :D

The Shadows did indeed create the Tech (that is, the implants used by the Mages). Through the Drakh, they'd been distributing it to the Technomages since Valen's Shadow War. Technomage ships are a marvel indeed. The trilogy establishes that the ship has organic technology inside that binds the ship to whichever mage is operating it. It's not nearly as sophisticated as the Shadow or Vorlon warships but it's on par with the White Stars.

Had the series continued, I think they would've focused less on the plague as JMS gave hints that would've been cured rather early on in the plague. But the true "plague" so-to-speak is hinted at various Earth Alliance black ops groups that want to undermine the government, create their own Technomages, and possibly engineer a break from the Interstellar Alliance.



Had all that happened things could have been very interesting........

I didn't like any of the Rangers movies or the attempt at a series. It was too "BBOTW" for me..