Ancient's failures and Plethora of other failed projects

[qingdom]

Before misleading the crowd into a biased flaming comment, please bear with me.

Stargate SG-1 introduced the insight of Ancients and their technology. It was like the 'ooooh' and 'aaaah' that there's a greater power out there with technology beyond our comprehension and they're the 'good' guys. They explore in the early seasons. In the later seasons, they come across some interesting finds of failed projects - i.e. Window of Opportunity Time Travel device, planetary outposts, ruins / barren structures that were once great buildings / establishments but lost due to the neglect of nature (both in-planet and off-planet)

Stargate Atlantis introduced the environment where Ancients were at their peak in technological advancements. Throughout the Pegasus galaxy, we saw orbital platforms, geothermal power stations, aurora class battleships, etc. Rodney proved time and again the Ancients genius, no matter how advanced, had some flaws. - i.e. replicators, blowing up a star system, waking up the wraith, being put on trial by the advanced collective community of Pegasus, etc.

Sure it's not always the Atlantis's teams' (or Rodney specifically) fault for putting those failed projects to rest by truly making them fail, but I'm quite interested to see what holds true for the Stargate Universe series.

From what we have so far through the two seasons, we see destiny and seeder ships. One for planting gates ahead, one for recon, scouting and data gathering.

Besides the ship being on auto-pilot for thousands of years on a course that was billions of light years from where it was launched (was it Earth where it launched from? I forget), but so far, we've been concentrating on the typical wear and tear of ONE project - and that's Destiny. Not to say Destiny was a failed project or is a failed project, but given the history of curiosity, the ship was set on a course to find out the structure behind the cosmic radiation. Ambitious plan, but not impossible.

Which brings me to question. What can SGU introduce as an element to explore these said failed projects of the ancients? and/or perhaps carry them on to their proper conclusion / finale unlike how Rodney went on with his arrogance around Pegasus?

God only knows how many other things are on the verge of collapse with Destiny due to old age. But what about other things floating around the edge of the universe where the SGU team is at?

[thekillman]

the only ancient projects that far out ARE Destiny and the Seeder ships.

i disliked the whole "failed experiment" thing. the ancients were incredibly, incredibly advanced beings. SGA only made them seem like fools.

[StarSancFar]

*SPOILERS FOR SEASON 1 AND 2 OF SGU THAT HAVE AIRED IN UK*
I would have to agree, no matter how smart they are they do have an impressive load of projects that havent seen through...although this is how we learn as a people, practise makes perfect seems a fitting phrase at this point.
I personally dont think Destiny is a failed project..the ancients did plan on gating in to destiny in the future...but they advanced incredibly in that time and ascended before the destiny reached her location....Destiny isnt a failed mission..its ongoing because now we, their descendants have took on this 'meaning of life' mission and are continuing in their big, shiny footsteps

And although there is no Ancient technology out that far into the universe....there is ancient, in the simple sense of the word, technology. For example they came across temple ruins and underground corridors in the season 1 episode 'human'. Who built that, or the time they found the perfect planet in 'faith', there was an obelisk and apparently the planet shouldn't have even exsisted in that newly formed galaxy. So maybe not Ancients but ancient beings of some sort, intelligent life, you religious folk may say its God...but then again Science contradicts that of a God...yet their are sentient beings on Stargate(ancients) who are our creators. I like to call that a mixmatch :P

What was the question again? Oh, right, failed projects. I still think the Ancients failed projects get overruled by their tremendous ones, for example...The Stargate- the whole reason of the show and the best project in my opinion! Another is Atlantis, yeah they were responsible for the Wraith (didn't they create them or something using iratus bugs?) but it's still a magnificent chapter in their history. (I mean, didnt they rebuild civilisation after the plague sent by the Ori?), others are:
The time machine Puddle Jumper
ZPM's
Aurora class battlecruisers
Several gadgets such as the life-signs detector
the list could go on, and on, and on...

And even if they are failed projects and ideas, they are still brilliant ideas made by brilliant beings with brilliant technology!! And they ARE our ancestors so they must be great!

[s09119]

Another one of these threads, seriously? There must be dozens of "let's bash the Ancients" threads by now.

[qingdom]

Another one of these threads, seriously? There must be dozens of "let's bash the Ancients" threads by now.


On the contrary, I'm not bashing the Ancients. This topic was created on the premise of rediscovering Ancient faults.

Time and again, many projects comes and goes in one way shape or form. For example, time travel, there are two ways that the Stargate universe taught us: 1) travel through a solar flare and 2) time travel puddle jumper

Ba'al took advantage of traveling through solar flares as seen through Continuum. However, Ancients version in 'Window of Opportunity' was just on a smaller scale than Ba'al and only concentrated on ONE star.

Although I said time and again 'failed' projects, doesn't mean they're complete failures. There's more than one occasion where Rodney adapted to failed theories and made them come true and working.

Much like our real world, there's no 'advancement' in technology if we don't learn from even our own technological mistakes. Same with the Ancients. They're not omnipotent as we keep seeing from flashbacks. They're just a more advanced civilization than us but we're getting there.



Back to topic... For yet another 'failed' theory, I have one idea where the seeder ships drops faulty gates where it mutates travelers going to destinations, but not from. Think about this. No two gates are the same. And they share the universal update protocol as explained in the 'Avenger' and 'Avenger 2.0' episodes.

But what if the gate was shipped with faulty hardware or alien-influenced hardware? Ba'al and Team Goa'uld showed that Ancient tech can be hacked and manipulated on more than one occasion. So why not the gates?

Yet, there has not been an episode where the gates were responsible for spawning patient zeroes.

There were episodes that explains that the gates buffers matter going through it, relay it to destination gate. Computers on the Receiving end like Atlantis would be able to detect microbes and other anomalies brought through the gate.

However, Destiny doesn't have such fail-safes. Thoughts?

[StarSancFar]

However, Destiny doesn't have such fail-safes. Thoughts?

I don't think the Ancients expected there would be any life on the other side of the universe and so thought they didn't really need a sheild or iris, but then again SG1 and Atlantis used the shield for other reasons also, not only to keep people without a GDO out but also for things like radiation waves or exotic particles eminating through the gate.

The Atlanyis gate, in my opinion, only had a shield because of the Wraith. The SG1 gate didn't even have an iris until we fitted one. ANd you never know destiny may have such things that have yet to be discovered by Rush or Eli....

Another thing is, the Ancients didn't plan on dialing in to the Destiny until it reached its location, and so might have planned on fitting a shield when they got there just in case of the shield activating by accident and they all dying as they walked through the event horizon

[thekillman]

Another one of these threads, seriously? There must be dozens of "let's bash the Ancients" threads by now.

i personally like to forget the entire Lantea group of ancients with their mind-numbing stupidity

[garhkal]

On the contrary, I'm not bashing the Ancients. This topic was created on the premise of rediscovering Ancient faults.
And how is talking about their faults NOT bashing them?

[Tajis]

Well, there is a certain theme to the Stargate series. With each progressive discovery of some Ancient project, the consequences grow catastrophically worse. I think, actually, we can divide it into time periods periods. The writers probably intended it as a sort of in-joke.

Altera era (try saying that three times fast) humans. Technology from this era (as seen with Destiny) usually doesn't invoke the continuing curse of the Ancients other than sheer age related failure.

Avalon era technology is moderately harmless. Stargates, Cloaking devices, transporters, ring platforms, etc. Haven't quite mastered blue jello, yet, but on the right path.

Plague era Ancient plot devices are dangerous. Tainted ZPMs, time bubbles, Galaxy-wide destruction with super-weapons, and the Amazingly Patented Companion Zombie Reanimation Cube.

Lantean era Ancient plot devices are devastating. Exploding super-weapons, exploding stargates, power generation technology that can destroy the fabric of the universe, Ascension machines, the McKay shutter-upper that comes up from the floor in the gateroom, world 'game' machines, and the Energy Vampire containment machine come to mind.

Ancient era plot devices and technology from after their return usually has consequences only for Jack, little gray beings without pants, and Russian submarines. Run if you hear "whirl-whirl-click-click-whirl" or see a suspicious wall mounted device that appears from nowhere.

[D Toccs]

The Ancients created some pretty advanced technology and not all of it was a failure.

Successful Ancient Tech part 1 (in that it works as advertised)
The Stargates, Destiny, Seed Ships, Device to study out-of-phase lifeforms, ZPM, Hyperdrive, FTL, Kino, Hologram technology, Communication stones, Personal shield, Ring transporters, Stasis chambers, Control chair and the Drone weapons.
Successful Ancient Tech part 2 (in that it works as intended, but must be used responsibly)
Dakara Weapon, Time traveling puddle jumper, Asurans, Repository of Knowledge, Ascension machine and the real life game of Civ.
Failed Ancient Tech
Project Acturus, The Attero Device and the Time Travel Bench.

It is a myth that most of the Ancients technology were failures. In Fact the vast majority we have seen has worked exactly as intended. Most of the catastrophic failures we have seen have been as a result of Human interference.
The Ancients realised that Project Acturus couldn't work so they turned it off, Zelenka realised it couldn't work and he said don't turn it on. McKay was the one who thought he knew better then everybody else even the creators of the device, it was McKay's arrogance that blew up a solar system.
The Ancients designed the Asurans to only attack the Wraith. It was McKay's tampering with the base code that allowed them to start altering it themselves. If left as the Ancients had created them they would have posed no danger to anyone bar the Wraith. If left as the Wraith had changed them they would have posed no danger to anyone.

The only thing the Ancients can really be faulted for is not disposing of their few failed and dangerous projects. By leaving dangerous and unstable technology lying around, they were practically asking for someone like McKay to come along and royally screw everything up.

[garhkal]

I still wonder if the Comm stones were even OF the ancients design... Especially as we have seen the device left back in their home galaxy.. how did it get there? Was that device one of the oldest pieces of tech they ever made?

[Nth Chevron]

I wonder if it has anything to do with ascension.

They spent so much time focusing and getting to the next level of existence, they didnt put their whole being into the most recent of Ancient projects.

Janus and the Attero device - we never saw any indication that Janus attempted to rectify the exploding Stargate side effect.

The Ancients never came up with plugging a cloak generator into the City shield grid.

Action and reaction.

You study hard and focus enough on it, your social life suffers.

You focus on one face in a picture filled with many, the rest become a blur.

etc etc ad naseum

N.C

[D Toccs]

I still wonder if the Comm stones were even OF the ancients design... Especially as we have seen the device left back in their home galaxy.. how did it get there? Was that device one of the oldest pieces of tech they ever made?

In Ark of Truth the communication stone terminal is seen in the room when the other Ancients are talking about the Ark, so yeah it's one of the oldest bits of Ancient tech we've seen, even older than the stargates.

[garhkal]

But who is to say they made it.. maybe them finding it belonged to some race older than they are, is WHY they split.

[lordofseas]

But who is to say they made it.. maybe them finding it belonged to some race older than they are, is WHY they split.

English is no that sense make.

[garhkal]

Come again?

[lordofseas]

Come again?

Exactly.

[traylormatt]

D Toccs is right. They came up with a lot of good tech. Only we messed with it and turned it into something that broke. The tech that we found on Atlantis (and some other tech dotted around the Pegasus galaxy) and then messed up could have been the most recent, built only 6 months before the ancients got up a left, therefor still had so many bugs that needed to be tested that they never got round to.

I bet there are loads of weapons and devices that we currently have that are being tested in real life and if we dropped them now and other people found it in 1000 years time and saw it as advanced and read the blurb of what it does they would think "fantastic, this will be amazing to use in our war" yet they do not know that it actually doesn't have a working guidance system yet and crashs after 5000 feet regardless of its course.

The ancients probably just needed more time to sort out the bugs. We think their drones are awesome, I bet the original drones probably misfired quite a bit or the chair interface we are used to often lost connection in their first few tries. Hell even the ZPMs may have had an earlier base model.

You can say what you like about their battle class ships and that we can fight them and win, or what have you. But realistically we are benefiting from taking the most advanced technologies from the two most advanced civilizations we have ever encountered. Literally learning from their mistakes so that we don't make them.

All in all, they did pretty damn well.

[escyos]

What exactely did they fail at?
Arcturus - it worked, it just didnt work good until we blew it up
Wraith - more of an accident then a failure
Asurans - They worked perfectly until we interfered

Sure seems like we are the failures rather than the Ancients

[KEK]

The Asurans didn't work perfectly at all, they were designed as a weapon to fight the Wraith, but didn't work out as what the Ancients wanted them to be so they tried to destroy them.

[escyos]

The Asurans didn't work perfectly at all, they were designed as a weapon to fight the Wraith, but didn't work out as what the Ancients wanted them to be so they tried to destroy them.

Only because they evolved and gained human form and they saw them as a threat.

[KEK]

Only because they evolved and gained human form and they saw them as a threat.

Pretty sure that wasn't he reason, it was because they started wiping out humans to defeat the Wraith. Either way, still a failed project.

[garhkal]

What exactely did they fail at?
Arcturus - it worked, it just didnt work good until we blew it up

Lets see.. Exotic particles blowing up portions of our universe?? Doubt that is a good sign



Wraith - more of an accident then a failure

I'll give you that.



Asurans - They worked perfectly until we interfered

Sure seems like we are the failures rather than the Ancients

How? They were not attacking the Wraith.. AND they do so by taking out all the humans...

I would also add in Attero device. YES it worked by stranding the wraith, but it also blew up stargates..

[escyos]

Pretty sure that wasn't he reason, it was because they started wiping out humans to defeat the Wraith. Either way, still a failed project.

That was AFTER we gave them access to their programming

[escyos]

Lets see.. Exotic particles blowing up portions of our universe?? Doubt that is a good sign

Yes but it still generated energy, there was just a side effect.



How? They were not attacking the Wraith.. AND they do so by taking out all the humans...

I would also add in Attero device. YES it worked by stranding the wraith, but it also blew up stargates..

The command was disabled probably never even activated because the Ancients feared they would turn against them. They didnt start killing humans until we messed with them.

As for Attero, it worked, it did what Janus wanted it to do. The Stargate thing was a side effect, plus as far as we knew he was the only one working on it. Would you call the human race a failure if one person failed at something?

[KEK]

That was AFTER we gave them access to their programming

No, they had a command in their programming that compelled them to kill Wraith which was deactivated, presumably by the Ancients, and presumably because they started massacring humans, hence they didn't work asp planned. It's possible that isn't the case of course, but that seemed to be the implication.

[escyos]

No, they had a command in their programming that compelled them to kill Wraith which was deactivated, presumably by the Ancients, and presumably because they started massacring humans, hence they didn't work asp planned. It's possible that isn't the case of course, but that seemed to be the implication.

thats conjecture, until we are told they did, they did not. Therefore all we know is that the evolved and were angry, due to them being programmed that way, and the Ancients didn't like that they wanted to emulate them so much so they destroyed them.

[garhkal]

Yes but it still generated energy, there was just a side effect.

As for Attero, it worked, it did what Janus wanted it to do. The Stargate thing was a side effect, plus as far as we knew he was the only one working on it. Would you call the human race a failure if one person failed at something?

One massive ass side effect, for both. Destroy vast areas of our space... or planets in the case of the gates.

[GoodSmeagol]

No, they had a command in their programming that compelled them to kill Wraith which was deactivated, presumably by the Ancients, and presumably because they started massacring humans, hence they didn't work asp planned. It's possible that isn't the case of course, but that seemed to be the implication.

Am I the only one who knows better this this?!?

Todd established the WRAITH turned off the original attack command.
Hence him bringing their old program to Atlantis to work with Rodney to reassert the counter command.

It is stated in the original Asuran episode by Laim via Weirs head that the ancients feared their new creation so therefore tried to destroy them.

They attacked humans ONLY after we fracked their code up.


Watch the show!

[D Toccs]

No, they had a command in their programming that compelled them to kill Wraith which was deactivated, presumably by the Ancients, and presumably because they started massacring humans, hence they didn't work asp planned. It's possible that isn't the case of course, but that seemed to be the implication.

It was established that the Wraith were the ones who turned off the attack command.

The Ancients considered the Asurans a failure because they wanted killer robots. The Ancient's original plan for the Asurans was probably similar to the IOA's plan to use replicators against the Ori in AoT.
However instead of killer robots, what the Ancients got was artificial life and intelligence that evolved much faster then they expected, began emulating them and wanted the aggression removed from their programming. So therefore as a weapon the Asurans were a failure.

[s09119]

Just to clarify, Arcturus never destroyed portions of the universe. That was our flawed version of it.

[coZma]

Stargate Atlantis introduced the environment where Ancients were at their peak in technological advancements.

I have to diagree with that. The ancients in the Pegassus were only the remnants. the shade of what once the greatest civilization in 4 galaxies. There lived the ancients that were either not advanced enough to ascend or the descendants of the plague survivors. The height of their civilization was in the Milky Way when they built the Dakara device and Destiny, which btw it is not a failed project. Not yet at least

[garhkal]

Not until/unless we make it fail!

[Gollumpus]

A perception I have of the Ancients (perhaps unfairly) is that for a species which was around *millions* of years, they really didn't develop new technology, or improve upon their existing technology, all that quickly.

regards,
G.

[garhkal]

Probabily since they were longer lived, they didn't feel a need to.

[Gollumpus]

Probabily since they were longer lived, they didn't feel a need to.

I would think that because they were longer lived this would inspire them to tinker with their technology and improve upon it or otherwise work out any bugs in the system. :)

regards,
G.

[garhkal]

IMO its like the diff in ADND between elves, dwarves and humans. Both the former 2 are a lot longer lived than humans, and so don't see a rush to do stuff.

[coZma]

Not until/unless we make it fail!

we are pretty damn good at that

[garhkal]

Unfortunately true..

[Trinary]

I guess Ancient didn't proceed to dial destiny because they may have found out it will cause the planet to explode. They may have suspend it to look for an alternative power source but caught up with war with the Wraith and plague. Probably, the Icarus project was unintentionally abandon project.

[coZma]

I guess Ancient didn't proceed to dial destiny because they may have found out it will cause the planet to explode. They may have suspend it to look for an alternative power source but caught up with war with the Wraith and plague. Probably, the Icarus project was unintentionally abandon project.

The ancients didn't need to use a Icarus type planet. They had the means to create as many ZPMs as need + Icarus didn't explode becase we used it as a power source. It exploded because LA started firing towards the surface which made it unstable

[woolsey]

the ancients didnt need to dail destiny because they acsended and found out about the signal so they had no further need to go to destiny