PDA

View Full Version : Shield inconsistencies.



Nedrom
December 3rd, 2010, 03:55 PM
Am I the only one that wonders why Destiny can handle flying into the sun but can't handle a few ships?

Where is the logic?

xxxevilgrinxxx
December 3rd, 2010, 04:38 PM
Because a shield is intended to handle one kind of energy doesn't mean it can handle all kinds of energy.

dgh64
December 3rd, 2010, 04:45 PM
Remember how Goa'uld personal shields could block a shot from a staff weapon or P-90, but when you throw a knife at them it goes right through? Same sort of thing.

morbosfist
December 3rd, 2010, 06:46 PM
And people keep failing to realize that the ship is also recharging while it's in the star. The shields protect it on approach, then get a boost from the recharge.

The Destiny
December 4th, 2010, 08:09 AM
The hits from a couple of fighters are insignificant to diving into a star however. Before it's in the star the shields have to deal with solar winds, and in the star the mass of the entire star ( which is an insane amount, it's like a planet is sitting on you ) is crushing down on you. It's not like destiny has a sunscreen of factor billion and can therefor withstand going into a star but not shrug off a few fighters, unbelievable powers are exerted on the ship, unimaginably more than some blobs of plasma shot by a small fighter.

Yeah, it's a bit inconsistent. The shield recharging while inside accounts for it a little bit, but usually we see those energy gatherthingies only drop when the destiny has well been inside the star for half a minute or so. If it can't withstand fighters but can withstand a star by continually recharging then all the power accumulated ought to be used up by the time its out of the star, solar winds, magnetic field and radiation.

thekillman
December 4th, 2010, 08:19 AM
The hits from a couple of fighters are insignificant to diving into a star however. Before it's in the star the shields have to deal with solar winds, and in the star the mass of the entire star ( which is an insane amount, it's like a planet is sitting on you ) is crushing down on you. It's not like destiny has a sunscreen of factor billion and can therefor withstand going into a star but not shrug off a few fighters, unbelievable powers are exerted on the ship, unimaginably more than some blobs of plasma shot by a small fighter.


inertial dampeners take care of the "planet sitting on you" part, and we know Shields can absorb energy and convert it to power.

oh and remember the Replicator episodes where the asgard and goauld weapons, normally blowing up enemy ships, are suddenly pea shooters

DannyJ
December 4th, 2010, 08:20 AM
The worst thing for me is who build a shield that after 4 or 5 hits causes consoles to explode. Seriously? I'm fed up of watching sci-fi shows where the shield seems to trigger **** loads of pyrotechnics inside.

Rylor
December 4th, 2010, 08:41 AM
The worst thing for me is who build a shield that after 4 or 5 hits causes consoles to explode. Seriously? I'm fed up of watching sci-fi shows where the shield seems to trigger **** loads of pyrotechnics inside.

Well, while it might not be realistic, it let's the audience know that the situation is dangerous. It has been that way since Star Trek.

Puddle-Jumper
December 4th, 2010, 09:11 AM
The Shields were probably designed specifially to handle stars, weapons are a different story

The Destiny
December 4th, 2010, 11:10 AM
The point is though that weapons tend to do danage via force ( mass x acceleration kind of thing ) and such, but if you fly inside a star you do not only experience intense heat ( which the shields might specifically handle ) but also tremendous forces trying to push through the shield from all sides. Let alone solar winds, G-forces and magnetic fields. One might argue that the shield is being continually recharged by being in the star, but 2 things:

1- Those things that drop down from under destiny's "wings" and gather energy only lower after the destiny is well inside the star. If the destiny can't withstand a bit of fighter weaponsfire for long it sure shouldn't be able to survive its trip long enough for it to lower the energycollecters and start recharging
2- Before destiny is in the star magnetic fields and solar wind should wreak havoc on it. Again, the shields at this point are not recharging yet and solar winds are probably as powerfull as weaponsfire ( some physicsperson here to elaborate on the powers of solarwind? )

If you want to argue that the shields might absorb energy like the ori shield that was enveloping & shrinking a planet then point 2 still stands. It gets pounded with immense forces before it reaches the star.


@ Thekillman: Don't inertial dampeners dampen the G-forces? With "a planet sitting on you" I meant it a bit more literal. The weight of a planet is crushing down on the shields, trying to squash it like a bug.


Inconsistency ftw. The sparks sometimes annoy me too. Wouldn't that amount to endless repairing of conduits? Odly enough we never see stuff like that happening on Ha'taks, hive-ships or other.

kcordloh
December 4th, 2010, 11:24 AM
Inconsistency ftw. The sparks sometimes annoy me too. Wouldn't that amount to endless repairing of conduits? Odly enough we never see stuff like that happening on Ha'taks, hive-ships or other.

Lots of Ha'tak battles have consoles explode. Camelot, Threads, and pretty much any time we see our allies and forces on the Ha'taks.

Now Asgard ships I can't remember exploding consoles, nor Ori ships or wraith hive ships. But Ancient ships, Traveler ships, yes we have seen it. The reason why it's only when our forces that we see it is easy from a film perspective.

KEK
December 4th, 2010, 11:26 AM
Am I the only one that wonders why Destiny can handle flying into the sun but can't handle a few ships?

Where is the logic?

For all intents and purposes, the shield is never really drained in a star because it's also being powered by it. You can't say the same for weapons fire.

dgh64
December 4th, 2010, 12:45 PM
The point is though that weapons tend to do danage via force ( mass x acceleration kind of thing ) and such, but if you fly inside a star you do not only experience intense heat ( which the shields might specifically handle ) but also tremendous forces trying to push through the shield from all sides. Let alone solar winds, G-forces and magnetic fields.

The weapons we've seen are energy weapons, which (I'm guessing here) do damage using heat, not ballistic weapons which do damage via force.

The thing about a star is that it's spread out over the whole ship, not focused on a tiny spot like a weapon. That's what damages the shield. The shield is probably also tuned to efficiently block the wavelengths you find in a star, but energy weapons use different energies which aren't blocked as efficiently, so they're harder on the shield than a star.

Jonzey
December 4th, 2010, 12:59 PM
Having your mobile phone get struck by lightning is not the same as plugging it into a charger.

blueray
December 4th, 2010, 02:12 PM
The Shields were probably designed specifially to handle stars, weapons are a different story

^this. the ship is meant to fly into the sun. you would think the ancients would have put in better shields against ships, but the ship is so old so maybe they aren't in the best shape.

GoodSmeagol
December 4th, 2010, 04:26 PM
A suit of mesh armor will protect you from a major strike from the edge of a sword.
A suit of mesh armor, when it is stabbed with a thinner more precise sword, the occupant dies.

When the ship flies through the sun, the shield protects from a major strike, the weapons fire subjects preasure to one location of the shield.
We can as Earthlings, fire lasers that far exceed the temp of the sun, to a spot the size of a pin head.
Same deal I am guessing.

The Destiny
December 4th, 2010, 05:23 PM
Compare being in a star like being in mesh armour..
...stabbed on every square inch of your body with thin precise swords..

...that are on fire

...while being crushed by a freight train

...that is on fire

I think you are all underestimating the incredible forces you're subjected to when you're on the inside of a star. It's hard to argue the weapons of a fighter have more force and heat than the inside of a star does.

Those fighters are shooting blobs of energy, plasma or whatever at a rather specific spot of the shield. Those blobs might be powerfull, sure, but a star which is crushing down on every square inch of the shield with far more force, heat and pressure is a different matter entirely. A star isn't just a gigantic campfire you just walz through with flames scorching at you angrily, it's a ball of burning gas that's is collapsing in on itself, excerting so much pressure on its' core that it fuses atoms together. Very different from the weapons of a fighter.

I'd imagine the weapons of the fighters we've seen so far to work with heat and with the force of the shot slamming into the target.

But if what you are all saying is true, then what if a bigger ship fires its' weapons at destiny? Automatic collapse of the shield, with a lot of power foccused on a single spot?

The force on the shield will differ depending on how deep destiny dives in though. In Resurgence it looked like it was very near the edge, we could see the darkness of space. In Light it seemed to just dive straight in the middle.

GoodSmeagol
December 4th, 2010, 05:32 PM
Compare being in a star like being in mesh armour..
...stabbed on every square inch of your body with thin precise swords..

...that are on fire

...while being crushed by a freight train

...that is on fire

I think you are all underestimating the incredible forces you're subjected to when you're on the inside of a star. It's hard to argue the weapons of a fighter have more force and heat than the inside of a star does.

Those fighters are shooting blobs of energy, plasma or whatever at a rather specific spot of the shield. Those blobs might be powerfull, sure, but a star which is crushing down on every square inch of the shield with far more force, heat and pressure is a different matter entirely. A star isn't just a gigantic campfire you just walz through with flames scorching at you angrily, it's a ball of burning gas that's is collapsing in on itself, excerting so much pressure on its' core that it fuses atoms together. Very different from the weapons of a fighter.

I'd imagine the weapons of the fighters we've seen so far to work with heat and with the force of the shot slamming into the target.

But if what you are all saying is true, then what if a bigger ship fires its' weapons at destiny? Automatic collapse of the shield, with a lot of power foccused on a single spot?

The force on the shield will differ depending on how deep destiny dives in though. In Resurgence it looked like it was very near the edge, we could see the darkness of space. In Light it seemed to just dive straight in the middle.


Uh, the show is a science FICTION.
Just because something is not 100% based in facts, does not mean it can not be in a sci FICTION show.
My mesh armor analogy is meant to loosely explain why a laser beam will damage the shield, while a sun will not.
You do realize even today we can exceed the temperature of the sun with laser beams...
If you want a SCIENCE NON FICTION show, try ESSA broadcasts, they are firmly based on real science, and you will have trouble complaining about how real it might seem.

The Destiny
December 4th, 2010, 06:50 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am a full SGU supporter and don't tend to complain about little issues or so-called 'glaring plotholes'. But in this thread people are trying to explain the OP's question using logic and because I believe there are indeed shield inconsistencies I try to debunk their arguments using logic to prove that there are inconsistencies.

Were we not to have discussions on the forum using logic, facts and reason then we could just as well answer every single question with "Because the writers said so. It's fiction." Now that would be boring and would not stimulate our intellegence. :)

also SGU is supposedly more realistic than it's predecessors ;)

dgh64
December 4th, 2010, 07:10 PM
Okay here's an experiment you can do at home: take a nail and a piece of hard wood. First, push on the nail with your thumb. As hard as you can. In fact, put it on the floor and stand on it. (just imagine doing this part, and imagine you have some way of keeping it from falling over) Can you push the nail into the wood? Probably not. Even if you stand on it for an hour, I'd bet the nail won't go into the wood. Now, hit it with a hammer a couple of times.

See how different types of forces work differently?

UniverseSizePlotHole
December 4th, 2010, 07:24 PM
Didn't the shuttle take a direct hit while docking (with no ill effect) but Colonel Young says fire only on my command then lets Destiny take 10 hits before opening fire? I guess that says the shuttle is in better shape/better shield than Destiny and that Young thinks a few mozzie bites are nothing to worry about - until consoles start exploding.

Valos Cor
December 4th, 2010, 07:33 PM
we're looking at the wrong aspects here. We know the shields work because they work in the show. Instead lets focus on how they could work under the circumstances.

my idea is when the destiny is in the prescence of a extremely large gravitational field its shields get stronger as the force of gravitation has a proportionality (F= 1/(r^2)) so.. as it gets in the star its shield strength goes through the roof.

Buck32
December 4th, 2010, 09:48 PM
The worst thing for me is who build a shield that after 4 or 5 hits causes consoles to explode. Seriously? I'm fed up of watching sci-fi shows where the shield seems to trigger **** loads of pyrotechnics inside.

Anyone who's ever watched star trek knows sparks mean danger, and iminent explosions, i expected to hear someone say " shields down to 50%" and so on.

Avenger
December 4th, 2010, 10:18 PM
The problem with the mass of the star argument is that we have no idea how deep into the star the ship flies. There is no denying that there is a lot of energy being released in a star, but it's simple fusion, when you get right down to it, and we've seen shields in the SG series handle nukes before. It's really not a huge stretch to believe that the shields can handle a star with out much problem. Factor in that the shields are never losing power when in the star, it makes it even more plausible.

Additionally, I think that the shields are taking far more than just a handful of shots at any given time when in combat, particularly in the last episode. There were dozens of those pods attacking the ship. Plus, the weapons are also in use, draining more power from a ship that has a power system we know isn't working anywhere near full capacity.

All that said, with just a simple glance, it looks like there is inconsistency, but that ignores a lot of things that can make the differing performance of the shields pretty plausible.

UniverseSizePlotHole
December 5th, 2010, 02:39 AM
I think its about time a shield expert came aboard. These cuisinart powered shields need an upgrade. :mckay:

The Destiny
December 5th, 2010, 06:11 AM
Depending on how deep the destiny dives into the star it's a bit like fighter weapons being high pressure water cannons and a dive into a star like being on the bottom of the ocean. Enormous pressure and it can implode even submarines.

Quetzocoetl
December 5th, 2010, 04:57 PM
we're looking at the wrong aspects here. We know the shields work because they work in the show. Instead lets focus on how they could work under the circumstances.

my idea is when the destiny is in the prescence of a extremely large gravitational field its shields get stronger as the force of gravitation has a proportionality (F= 1/(r^2)) so.. as it gets in the star its shield strength goes through the roof.

I was thinking of something similar.
I figured that Destiny must have some sort of anti-gravity drive so that it can fly in atmosphere, much like earth ships must have, given the fact that almost no ship is aerodynamic in the slightest. What if Destiny simply uses that to counter the effects of the star's gravity?

ggf31416
December 5th, 2010, 07:04 PM
If I understand the wikipedia article about the sun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun a star is nothing that SG ships shouldn't be able to handle.
If I understand corrrectly 1 m^2 at the surface emits 2x10^7 W, so 1 Km ^2 at the surface = 2x10^13W = about 5 kton / Km^2, so the sun surface it is not worse than a primitive nuclear bomb detonated for each Km^2 every second. The density isn't a big problem unless you get deep into the sun and the fusion reactions even in the core are actually very few.

thenimf
December 5th, 2010, 09:10 PM
I've never seen them fly Destiny into a star upside down...

i.e. They always go in with a 'land' approach with the scoopers facing inward to the star.... I'm assuming that if they went in upside-down all the crew quarters would be exposed to the star's radiation and none of the scoopers would charge up... causing shield failure and the ship to go BOOM.

Gatebsg
December 5th, 2010, 09:13 PM
Plasma and laser weapons are actually hotter than the sun which in our case is only 6000k at the surface somebody did the math earlier last year I think? plus this sci fi suspend disbelief.

garhkal
December 6th, 2010, 03:51 AM
Didn't the shuttle take a direct hit while docking (with no ill effect) but Colonel Young says fire only on my command then lets Destiny take 10 hits before opening fire? I guess that says the shuttle is in better shape/better shield than Destiny and that Young thinks a few mozzie bites are nothing to worry about - until consoles start exploding.

Remember the shuttle had just been returned fully remade. So it stands to reason it would be complete/fully functional.

Quetzocoetl
December 6th, 2010, 10:37 AM
Plasma and laser weapons are actually hotter than the sun which in our case is only 6000k at the surface somebody did the math earlier last year I think? plus this sci fi suspend disbelief.

The air around a lightning strike is hotter than the surface of the sun for a brief moment, so weapons being hotter makes sense.
If we assume that Destiny uses a method of manipulating gravity in order to combat the tidal forces of the star, and combine that with the fact that Destiny draws it's power from stars, then it makes sense that weapons fire can drain the shields.

The Destiny
December 6th, 2010, 04:27 PM
If I understand the wikipedia article about the sun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun a star is nothing that SG ships shouldn't be able to handle.
If I understand corrrectly 1 m^2 at the surface emits 2x10^7 W, so 1 Km ^2 at the surface = 2x10^13W = about 5 kton / Km^2, so the sun surface it is not worse than a primitive nuclear bomb detonated for each Km^2 every second. The density isn't a big problem unless you get deep into the sun and the fusion reactions even in the core are actually very few.

Odly enough this would mean that ha'taks can handle a star, at least for a short moment anyway, as they can handle nukes ( SG-1 Season 1 finale ). In Exodus ( SG-1 season 4 ) all the ha'taks are destroyed almost on touch though. I believe the density of a supernova is even lower as it's the same amount of matter expanding many times it's size.

morbosfist
December 6th, 2010, 05:12 PM
Odly enough this would mean that ha'taks can handle a star, at least for a short moment anyway, as they can handle nukes ( SG-1 Season 1 finale ). In Exodus ( SG-1 season 4 ) all the ha'taks are destroyed almost on touch though. I believe the density of a supernova is even lower as it's the same amount of matter expanding many times it's size.It may be the same amount of mass, but the energy is far greater. A supernova is the combined output of a star over its entire lifetime expelled all at once at nearly 10% the speed of light. That's a lot of power.

Incidentally, SG1's Ha'tak sits inside a blue giant for ten hours in the following episode.

Replicator Todd
December 6th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Am I the only one that wonders why Destiny can handle flying into the sun but can't handle a few ships?


Yes. :p

Abiron
December 6th, 2010, 09:42 PM
I'm of the opinion that it's not the total energy that matters to the shields, it's the type of the energies impacting it.

Let us for a moment think of the Destiny's shield as a form of armor. Every form of human-worn armor has its strengths and its weaknesses. Physical shields - scutums, kites, rounds, bucklers, etc. - are localized defenses, and the area they aren't protecting is more vulnerable. They are also less effective against crushing weapons than blades and projectiles, as the crushing forces will eventually break them down edge-first. Various forms of metal armor - plate, chain, scale, etc. - are variously more or less effective against differing types of melee and projectile weapons. Modern personal armor like kevlar will take a single hit before becoming ineffective (at least in the segment hit), and heavier items like metallic plates will survive multiple impacts from directed fire, but are still less effective against explosive and fire damage.

In other words, all defensive systems have both advantages and disadvantages, and it's up to the designers of them to decide what they will be most effective against and what the tradeoff will be against other forms of attack.

In the case of Destiny, the shields were first and foremost designed to protect the ship from the natural dangers it was expected to encounter. Dipping into a star, micrometeors, cosmic radiation, errant pulsars...these were all things that the designers prepared Destiny for. But without knowing exactly what kind of energy weapons might be used against her, they had no way to ensure that her shields would be impregnable to them. So some enemies might fire weapons that the shields are perfectly capable of defending against for days, while others might have come up with something truly unexpected that can actually do significant damage to them. Thus, the little drones ability to wreak havoc on shields that can withstand the output of a star...it's just two different things, like a sword instead of a mace. Destiny might be able to handle a mace all day long...but a sword, not so much.

Yes, it's pretty much a cop-out sci-fi answer, but it also has an analog in the real world, and without a lot more knowledge of the way shields work in the Stargate universe I'm happy with my explanation.

garhkal
December 7th, 2010, 04:08 AM
It may be the same amount of mass, but the energy is far greater. A supernova is the combined output of a star over its entire lifetime expelled all at once at nearly 10% the speed of light. That's a lot of power.

Incidentally, SG1's Ha'tak sits inside a blue giant for ten hours in the following episode.

Not as close as the destiny gets..

UniverseSizePlotHole
December 7th, 2010, 04:16 AM
^Nice point Abiron about the Ancients expectations of what they would encounter.


Incidentally, SG1's Ha'tak sits inside a blue giant for ten hours in the following episode.
So how long did the Lucian Alliance Ha'taks survive in Air?

The Destiny
December 7th, 2010, 07:28 AM
About 2 seconds



Incidentally, SG1's Ha'tak sits inside a blue giant for ten hours in the following episode.

Inside the sphere of it's radiation though, not inside the actual star :) Even then the shields could only withstand 10 hours of radiation.

morbosfist
December 7th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Inside the sphere of it's radiation though, not inside the actual star :) Even then the shields could only withstand 10 hours of radiation.10 hours is a long time, and they were in the corona. Destiny barely stays in for a few minutes at a time, and it has the benefit of a continuous power supply.

VJC
December 7th, 2010, 02:02 PM
The worst thing for me is who build a shield that after 4 or 5 hits causes consoles to explode. Seriously? I'm fed up of watching sci-fi shows where the shield seems to trigger **** loads of pyrotechnics inside.

Yep - fuses appear to be some sort of lost technology to sci-fi. Imagine all the red shirts that would have been saved, all the injuries prevented had star-ships been fitted with fuses. :p

Abiron
December 7th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Agreed about fuses (or circuit breakers). Why in TV sci-fi is the external hull somehow always directly connected electrically with the bridge consoles? Surely someone in one of these races has some kind of electrical engineering experience?

It's even more annoying when we consider that Ancient tech is supposedly crystal-based. Signals travelling via optical conduits should simply not have the ability to send showers of sparks across our heroes.

sgc
December 7th, 2010, 10:17 PM
Destiny's shields were created primarily for keeping the ship safe while in a star, with the purposes of also defending from attack. However, it was intended first for keeping it alive while in a star.

Think of the Asgard Beliskner: It couldn't survive uncontrolled atmospheric entry because of the plating for the cloak. In Destiny's case, the shield doesn't defend as well against directed energy blasts from weapons as it does for a star refill.

You need to protect against heat and gravity while in a star. You are not being exposed to directed energy pulses while in a star, so Destiny does not protect as well against them.

Rakhal
December 8th, 2010, 10:26 AM
Mind you, it certainly seems like the shields are pretty bad compared with what the ancients could do later.

A while back someone did a calculation that it would take between 10 and 100 ZPM's worth of energy to dial the Destiny. I assume it would take about the same amount to dial back, and apparently the power reserves of a seed ship and that of Destiny would be enough. So assuming just 10 ZPM's of energy to dial, and also assuming that the seed ship and Destiny have the same power capacity, then Destiny has 5 ZPM-worth of energy stored in it at full charge.
Atlantis, with one ZPM apparently can withstand a fleet of hive ships constantly bombarding its shields for a week! (And no sparks either :)), so they must have got a whole lot better at shielding since the time of Destiny's launch
Mind you, given the frequency that they seem to need to recharge, I have to assume that FTL drive is an incredible power-hog! No wonder they moved to hyperdrives :)

--Rakhal

Abiron
December 8th, 2010, 04:36 PM
Atlantis had the benefit of a full crew who could make changes and upgrades to the shields based on what was being directed against them. That, and a whole lot more hardware, and the ability to build more. I'm sure that with time, experience, and adequate resources, Destiny's shields could be modified to be more useful against directed energy attacks...but they haven't had the luxury of any of those so far.

sgc
December 8th, 2010, 09:23 PM
Mind you, it certainly seems like the shields are pretty bad compared with what the ancients could do later.

A while back someone did a calculation that it would take between 10 and 100 ZPM's worth of energy to dial the Destiny. I assume it would take about the same amount to dial back, and apparently the power reserves of a seed ship and that of Destiny would be enough. So assuming just 10 ZPM's of energy to dial, and also assuming that the seed ship and Destiny have the same power capacity, then Destiny has 5 ZPM-worth of energy stored in it at full charge.
Atlantis, with one ZPM apparently can withstand a fleet of hive ships constantly bombarding its shields for a week! (And no sparks either :)), so they must have got a whole lot better at shielding since the time of Destiny's launch
Mind you, given the frequency that they seem to need to recharge, I have to assume that FTL drive is an incredible power-hog! No wonder they moved to hyperdrives :)

--Rakhal

They aren't bad. They can go right through a star. They are just primitive.

I wish that people would stop pulling an arbitrary number of ZPM's out of their noses for Destiny's trip. There's no way of confirming it.

The Ancients used FTL drives for Destiny and the seed ships because of the possibility of using the Stargate to get there, along with the power requirements. Hyperdrives have no limit on speed, directly related to power. FTL has a finite speed, increasing as time in FTL increases. However, you have to constantly drop out to recalculate course so you don't crash into planets, stars, ships, or floating replicators at superluminal speed. Destiny used FTL so that it could go faster and so that the Stargate could be used to get to Destiny's location.

Blistna
December 8th, 2010, 09:52 PM
The worst thing for me is who build a shield that after 4 or 5 hits causes consoles to explode. Seriously? I'm fed up of watching sci-fi shows where the shield seems to trigger **** loads of pyrotechnics inside.

If shields work with energy being delivered through conduits and suddenly there was a massive increase of energy hitting your shields, the shield would have to rapidly increase and if those energy conduits couldn't handle the rapid growth of energy needed to fight back the force hitting your shield, things would blow up. Maybe not as dramatic as the TV makes it appear, but things would get physically damaged.

Also we don't know how the shields work in terms of holding back the sun. We know it could protect the crew with little energy, it could be there are two shields -- one for the sun, and one for defense. But again, since we don't know how it works we can't begin to guess how it works.

sgc
December 8th, 2010, 09:58 PM
If shields work with energy being delivered through conduits and suddenly there was a massive increase of energy hitting your shields, the shield would have to rapidly increase and if those energy conduits couldn't handle the rapid growth of energy needed to fight back the force hitting your shield, things would blow up. Maybe not as dramatic as the TV makes it appear, but things would get physically damaged.

Also we don't know how the shields work in terms of holding back the sun. We know it could protect the crew with little energy, it could be there are two shields -- one for the sun, and one for defense. But again, since we don't know how it works we can't begin to guess how it works.

If Destiny were brand new, then the shield could probably handle the attacking ships without all the sparks. The conduits have been damaged, and they have not had time to reroute all of the conduits.

Gatefan1976
December 8th, 2010, 11:13 PM
If shields work with energy being delivered through conduits and suddenly there was a massive increase of energy hitting your shields, the shield would have to rapidly increase and if those energy conduits couldn't handle the rapid growth of energy needed to fight back the force hitting your shield, things would blow up. Maybe not as dramatic as the TV makes it appear, but things would get physically damaged.

Also we don't know how the shields work in terms of holding back the sun. We know it could protect the crew with little energy, it could be there are two shields -- one for the sun, and one for defense. But again, since we don't know how it works we can't begin to guess how it works.

This is, imo, 100% correct. If you have any doubts, go to your local "re-creationist" society, throw on some armour and get smacked by a mace. You may not bleed, but I bet you will get some great bruising :P
Even with modern ballistic armour, if you get shot, you probably won't die, but the arteries and veins underneath will suffer damage (much like power conduits in a ship causing an overload).

xxxevilgrinxxx
December 10th, 2010, 09:52 AM
If Destiny were brand new, then the shield could probably handle the attacking ships without all the sparks. The conduits have been damaged, and they have not had time to reroute all of the conduits.

This. Right now, the Destiny on a good day is running at around 40% according to Eli.

SGSargon
December 10th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Well, an Abrams tank can survive a 100 kg bomb exploding in front of the turret, with little as a few ceramic layers being chipped off and the crew survives. Does that mean you would need a 200 kg bomb to kill the tank crew? or 300 kg? Nope. You would need a shaped charge to cut through the armour. HEAT projectiles such as RPG-s use a shaped charge of copper or some other metal to punch through the armour by making a small hole. Instead of a normal explosion in which the force expands in all directions, in a shaped charge the explosion concentrates a cone in a narrow jet of metal (which is not actually molten, is more of a metal plate being deformed really really fast). All anti-tank weapons (HEAT, KEP) have something in common: they concentrate their force in a very small point, instead of a large area.
In this case the star's energy disperses even over the entire shield, where as a weapon pulse hits the shield in a very small portion.
Long story short: You can stay on a sheet of glass without breaking it, but if you concentrate the force in a single point you will break it. It's all in how the force is dispersed or absorbed.

k1037
December 11th, 2010, 02:09 AM
It's likely more an issue of Destiny not being familiar with this type of weapon and needing time to adapt. I mean, the range of weaponry that could be used is truly remarkable. Aliens could use weapons from dozens of different categories: projectile, explosive, electromagnetic, plasma, laser/heat/photon, thermonuclear, antimatter, phasing, teleporting, exotic particle, cold/drains, and others that we've never even conceived of. And there would be hundreds of different variations in each of those categories. The ship couldn't possibly have been built to handle *every* type of attack possible, and it can't just block *everything* (or else we'd never see any light, never be able to use the radio, never be able to dial the gate, etc.).

I'm betting Destiny (and her crew) will make adjustments to the shields fairly quickly. They already handled the second fight much better than the first.

Anyway, new SciFi bad guys are ALWAYS overpowering at first. The Dominion, Goa'uld, Replicators, Ori, Borg, on and on. The Blues may have been new enemies for us, but Destiny was quite familiar with them. They got in their shots (based on the damage to the ship) early on, but Destiny had learned to hold her own by the time we got on board.

knowles2
December 11th, 2010, 02:29 AM
It's likely more an issue of Destiny not being familiar with this type of weapon and needing time to adapt. I mean, the range of weaponry that could be used is truly remarkable. Aliens could use weapons from dozens of different categories: projectile, explosive, electromagnetic, plasma, laser/heat/photon, thermonuclear, antimatter, phasing, teleporting, exotic particle, cold/drains, and others that we've never even conceived of. And there would be hundreds of different variations in each of those categories. The ship couldn't possibly have been built to handle *every* type of attack possible, and it can't just block *everything* (or else we'd never see any light, never be able to use the radio, never be able to dial the gate, etc.).

I'm betting Destiny (and her crew) will make adjustments to the shields fairly quickly. They already handled the second fight much better than the first.

Anyway, new SciFi bad guys are ALWAYS overpowering at first. The Dominion, Goa'uld, Replicators, Ori, Borg, on and on. The Blues may have been new enemies for us, but Destiny was quite familiar with them. They got in their shots (based on the damage to the ship) early on, but Destiny had learned to hold her own by the time we got on board.

Auto Adaptive shielding would be a smart thing to have on this sort of vessel.

Brian
December 11th, 2010, 02:38 AM
This whole concept has bugged me from the first time I saw those annoying sparks fly out of random parts of a ship in SG-1 when hit by anything. I like what this thread has been saying. Personally I chock it up to us not knowing what kind of "energy" or "blasts" they are using to hit the shields with.

But that temporary covering of my questions on the topic don't last long when you factor in common sense. Example: Goa'uld fighting each other. Well they all know what they're getting attacked with...the same ship they're in. Yet with these ships that can travel in subspace and across the galaxy don't have a shield that can withstand their own weapons? Come on that's just stupid.

In the end the only reason that makes any sense is plot convenience. Plain and simple. The writers want this to happen and make it happen even though it makes no sense.

Ukko
December 11th, 2010, 11:02 AM
Or the shields dont stop all the energy. Or perhaps the impact of weapon on shield (No matter what kind of weapon or shield) creats another kind of energy behind the shield and that damages the ship.
Maybe everytime the shields are hit, the shield generators let out bursts of energy or some kind of shockwaves throughout the ship.

Likes some already said. You get hit while wearing armour, your still gonna get hurt.

Abiron
December 12th, 2010, 09:57 PM
As far as shields in sci-fi go, it's all about what the fictional explanation of what the shields actually do says, not about any actual physics. I suppose that once we develop something like real physical force fields capable of acting as defense systems, there will be more consensus on what they're really doing.

For example: In Star Trek, the deflector shields from TOS were never fully explained in-show. When the Franz Joseph blueprints and Technical Manual were produced years later, they offered technical details on the system, mainly based on how the shields had appeared to act in the episodes. The manual states that the deflector grid produces an energy field from a grid embedded in the actual hull that functions as an ancillary hull layer to absorb damage. The deflectors don't actually deflect anything based on this explanation; they merely form something like an ablative armor layer that can be replenished so long as the energy to do so is available.

In The Next Generation, shields were much more complex, and formed a "bubble" around the ship that looked great in VFX shots. This same effect - having the shields form a bubble surrounding the ship rather than a hull-hugging ablative layer - has been used in countless other shows and movies, including most Stargate incarnations. It's worth noting that Destiny's shields are not of the projected bubble variety, but appear to be of the hull-hugging variety.

No matter what the VFX for the shields are, we have never really had a full explanation of how any race's shields work in the Stargate universe. Do they form some kind of additional ablative armor layer? Do they form a coherent energy barrier that allows some forms of energy through, but not others? Are they impermeable to matter at certain velocities or mass? Do they drain incoming energy fire into some kind of capacitor system, allowing only small non-destructive quantities to pass through? I'm pretty sure that we've never heard the exact details, and that's mainly so that the writers can make them up as they go along.

In Destiny's case, all we can know for certain is that the stock shields are proof against a star, but not against certain forms of directed energy attack. Like the Chobham armor on a modern Main Battle Tank, the ship's shields are proof against almost all forms of damage that it might encounter in its mission. But as SGSargon so wonderfully pointed out above, there are anti-tank weapons that are designed specifically to defeat that armor...just as the drones have weapons that can defeat Destiny's shields. When attacking a modern tank, a heavily-loaded bomber carrying massive explosive bombs may well fail where a single man with an RPG will succeed. In the case of Destiny, a star can't hurt her shields, but a tiny drone with very specifically designed weapons can. Just like a modern RPG is designed to defeat the type of armor used in most tanks rather than a specific model, so the drones weapons are likely designed to do damage to ship shields based on general rules, rather than Destiny's shields specifically. Unfortunately, in Destiny's case those general rules are apparently the ones the show is going with.

garhkal
December 13th, 2010, 03:05 AM
Anyone remember a scifi show where we didn't see sparks fly when the shields got hit?

Rylor
December 15th, 2010, 02:54 AM
Anyone remember a scifi show where we didn't see sparks fly when the shields got hit?

Star Trek: The Next Generation rarely had sparks. Mostly, it was only shaking.