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Nightwing
November 28th, 2010, 02:40 PM
Does anyone know why this book keeps getting pushed back and when it will become available?

They said Atlantis: Homecoming would be out in September, then December and now February??

The Flyattractor
November 29th, 2010, 07:09 PM
I got the impression that it sold out,and now people have to wait for reprints.

Or are just SOL.

The Flyattractor
November 30th, 2010, 12:36 PM
Yup. Just got a notice for Amazon telling me I am SOL.

Hooray.

Elite Anubis Guard
November 30th, 2010, 01:14 PM
Sol?

GateGhost
November 30th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Think about it.

The Flyattractor
November 30th, 2010, 02:14 PM
"**** outta Luck"

Elite Anubis Guard
December 1st, 2010, 01:54 AM
Never heard that one before. But no, Homecoming hasn't been released by Fandemonium yet. They're having issues getting the books out on time and keeping us updated as to what is happening.

mercy moon
December 1st, 2010, 07:50 AM
author jo grahman seems to think it will be soon! :D

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/

The Flyattractor
December 1st, 2010, 10:05 AM
I didn't see anything

mercy moon
December 1st, 2010, 02:19 PM
try this link from november 23rd :
http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/95230.html

The Flyattractor
December 6th, 2010, 04:33 PM
Now Websites are saying Feb 2nd 2011. Dah FUHH!

scifan
December 6th, 2010, 07:28 PM
One member, Artie, posted this about HOMECOMING.....


FYI -- The first book of the Legacy series, Homecoming, is now up for order on Fandemonium's website. This isn't preorder -- it's in stock and ready to ship.

http://www.stargatenovels.com/index.shtml



I hope this helps those that want the book. :)

The Flyattractor
December 7th, 2010, 01:00 PM
10-Q for the link.

One word of warning about it thou.
Pay attention to your quantities.
Every time I went back to the site,it added another book to your shopping cart.

Just to let know.

mercy moon
December 7th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Yeah and their shipping rates have gone up to! Still at least it's officially available now ... that's my Xmas holidays sorted ... and Dr Who, of course!! :D

The Flyattractor
December 7th, 2010, 01:51 PM
Dr.WHO target novels top my Freak-Mas list.

Woo Hoo for Ebay.

Elite Anubis Guard
December 8th, 2010, 09:29 AM
Yeah and their shipping rates have gone up to! Still at least it's officially available now ... that's my Xmas holidays sorted ... and Dr Who, of course!! :D

Aye. I preferred their printing being based in the UK lol.

The Flyattractor
December 14th, 2010, 07:51 PM
yay. Finallly got my copy of homecoming.
2 chapters in and I must say.. Its as good a read as the show was to watch.

They managed to capture the humor most excellently.

Libero
December 15th, 2010, 10:11 AM
yay. Finallly got my copy of homecoming.
2 chapters in and I must say.. Its as good a read as the show was to watch.

They managed to capture the humor most excellently.

Got my book today too. I'm in Germany and I ordered 6 days ago - nothing to complain about. :)

The Flyattractor
December 15th, 2010, 12:30 PM
I just wish I had remebered to cancel my Amazon order.

nertz

Naomi
December 17th, 2010, 04:59 AM
A few weeks ago I received notification from Amazon that Atlantis Homecoming wouldn't be released until 2011, but then I received my copy a couple of days ago. I'm looking forward to reading it. I'm scheduling some uninterrupted me time, so I can sink into the book from beginning to end.

The Flyattractor
December 17th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Am now glad I didnt cancel my am order.
Cause I hadn't had the first book a week and the cover has already fallen off.

Elite Anubis Guard
December 18th, 2010, 02:42 AM
Just received my copy. Read a few chapters already and am enjoying it.

addicted_to_steve
December 23rd, 2010, 03:58 AM
The book depository cancelled my order for this the other day because they ran out of stock! I almost cried. I have been keen to read this since September.

Elite Anubis Guard
December 24th, 2010, 02:52 AM
Just order direct from Fandy. I'm about another 100 from finishing this. It's been a great read so far.

mercy moon
December 24th, 2010, 07:36 AM
Just order direct from Fandy. I'm about another 100 from finishing this. It's been a great read so far.

yeah, i'm about the same page ... it's a brilliant read! the best/most grown up SGA novel yet ... if there's ever a series 6, i hope jo graham writes it! (buy it todd fans - he's treated as a main cast member in this!) :D


EDIT : just finished 'homecoming' ... this book/series truly feels like season 6 ... as a huge todd fan i was originally worried how he would be developed, but the characterization is perfect - as is, with all the regulars. it's fantastic to finally learn more about them (with no reset button) all set against an authentic, threatening and building situation! the only bad thing being ... we have to wait until february for next installment!

Elite Anubis Guard
December 25th, 2010, 11:13 AM
I too just finished Homecoming. Just in time for Christmas where I had another 2 Atlantis novels waiting for me. The novel was pretty long and it managed to squeeze quite a lot in. There's a lot of setup in there, which is certainly needed to get Legacy moving along for the future novels.

I'm looking forward to hopefully getting some drastic changes. I want to see someone die and I want to see them use this lack of reset button. I eagerly awaiting The Lost.

mparsons1981
January 1st, 2011, 07:22 AM
Hi all,

Stargate Atlantis - Homecoming

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1905586507/ref=oss_product

I just bought this book of Amazon. It came up on my recommendations, which until recently had been full of only Star Trek Books. I went onto buy Star Trek Tyhon Pact Book 1, and ended up buying this as well.

I would like to thanks those on the Gateworld Podcast who have discussed these Fandemonium Books, as it stood out for me when i saw that publisher as being something recommended at some point in the podcast. I believe this is correct? I'm not sure who or when, but it rang a bell with me anyway.

With the end of SGU, and apparently no future for an Atlantis Movie, I'm happy that the adventures of McKay and Sheppard can continue in this form.

I hope that there can be as good a future for Stargate in this form as there has been for Star Trek and Star Wars. Indeed, i believe that the best of Trek and Wars has coming in the written form.

Thanks.

padr49904
January 1st, 2011, 11:11 AM
http://www.whona.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=W&Category_Code=stargate
This site has some copies of the book for sale, was looking for ebooks and this popped up on google, not really interested in buying the book so don't care if they run out any time soon. Have not ordered from them before so buyer beware.

Lt.UrsulaKenmore
January 13th, 2011, 03:26 PM
I'm not sure I got as much out of this book as everyone else did. Don't get me wrong, the parts of this book that are mission based were just pure good, totally awesome SGA, but there were some glaring character issues that I came across that just jolted me out of reading the book for a moment. I'd have to regroup and go back in. At about page 89, the character discrepancies got to be so great that I had to tell myself just think of this book like a STAR TREK Myriad Universes "what if" sort of a thing just to finish it. I was glad that Melissa made an apology for such problems in the author's note at the end though. But still...I'm not sure I hold out much hope for The Lost coming out soon. The Sheppard-Teyla-Torren thing and Teyla all of a sudden basically abandoning her people and son...I don't know. That's all I can really say, I just don't know.

Tinah
January 14th, 2011, 10:11 AM
This started out as a comment on the post immediately above mine, but grew to become a long, rambling... thing... about my opinion on this novel and hopes for the future of the "Legacy" series. Spoilered due to length, but I hope you will read it anyway.

Actually, one of my favourite things about the novel was how the relationships between Sheppard-Teyla-Kanaan developed. From the pilot and throughout the series, I've felt there was something going on between Sheppard and Teyla, something more than the deep friendship bond the team as a whole has. There have been many little things, and I don't remember them all, because I'm not a "shipper" ( of any Stargate pairing ), but I do remember some.

For example when Sheppard was unconscious during the search for Teyla when she was kidnapped, he dreamed about them having a romantic dinner, and when Teyla told Elizabeth in the Fran body her son's name, Elizabeth thought Sheppard was the father. Somehow I never felt the chemistry between Teyla and Kanaan in the same way. I realize this is just personal opinion and not definite canon, but I'm just trying to explain why the evolution of the Sheppard-Teyla-Kanaan relationship felt right to me, and was actually one of my favourite parts of the book. I thought it was cute, but also a bit sad, how she'd been holding back from showing her feelings for him because she knows about Earth humans' sexual/relationship taboos and is afraid he wouldn't respect her.

Also, I don't see any ( sudden ) "abandonment" of her people on Teyla's part. Whatever is happening has been happening for a long time already. But then I don't remember the details of a book very well after only having read it once, so I may have glossed something over in my memory.

However the discussion on the subject between Teyla and Rodney... I don't know. I think Rodney showed a little too much understanding of the complex, subtle relationship issues. In the beginning of the TV-series he was a rude, arrogant person with no social graces and very little understanding of relationships. During the course of the series he changed and learned, and especially during "Tao of Rodney". But I never got the impression he'd progressed that far.

Not too sure about the "Guide" business either. ( He'll always be "Todd" to me..! ;) ) And "Queen Death"? Really?! ( I'm sorry but I just think that name sounds... tacky... :o ) I always felt Wraith had a different concept of names and identities than humans, due to their telepathic nature. But I'm going to pretend those names are just a very inexact translation for the benefit of human readers. I hope we'll see more of Wraith culture in the future books. I'm not one of the "Wraith Worshippers" but I'd like to see more of them, more of what makes them alien not only physically, but how they function as a civilization, with each other, not just with their food.

I liked the beginning of the novel, on Earth, the most. This is where we see how the situation the characters are in affects them and their plans for the future. Then they travel back to the Pegasus Galaxy and... well, we're back to the adventures. I liked seeing Sora back, I liked that character and what she went through and learned in the series. I hope to see her grow more in the books. I like how this is a longer series, which means there'll be room both for plenty of character/relationship development and a long, complex plot. I'm also eagerly anticipating the hopefully upcoming Rodney "whumping" in the next book. ;)

Even though it's been said there's no "reset button", somehow I still don't think they're going to kill any of the main characters. But if the movie is ever made, "Legacy" will be relegated to an AU anyway, so I guess they can take some chances they wouldn't take in canon. I thought for a moment that Jennifer was going to stay on Earth ( which I would've loved because I don't like to see "my" Rodney have a girlfriend! :o ).

I wonder if what I read in a spoiler somewhere, ( possible spoiler for future books ) that there was one relationship where the two would be growing apart ( or something like that ), is Teyla and Kanaan ( or if they never had a "relationship" in the first place ), or if it's Rodney and Keller. There did seem to be some doubts from Rodney about their future together. Yeah I know, it could be wishful thinking on my part! :p

Loved the kitten! A kitten on Atlantis! I would have loved to see that on-screen ( I'm a huge cat lover )! Carson better watch out! :D

The Flyattractor
January 14th, 2011, 02:47 PM
A question/spoiler about the old and new seires.

In homecoming. Todd/Guide mentions that he has/had a daughter named Snow. Was this ever mentioned in the previous series or just in homecoming?

Tinah
January 14th, 2011, 11:48 PM
I'm pretty sure it never was, before this novel.

mercy moon
January 15th, 2011, 02:07 AM
i'm not overly keen on the actual names given to the wraith in the books (yes, todd will always/only be todd to me too!), but understand the necessity of naming them - how else would the writers distinguish who they were talking about in a book/series (hopefully) full of wraith characters if all they said was 'the male wraith', 'the commander' or 'the queen' etc every time - things might get a tad confusing very quickly! :)

sheppard's names for them were great 'cos they were just so wrong!! i quite liked the 'did they/didn't they name themselves thing being a mystery ... bit like we don't know what the doctor's really called in doctor who or capt jack in torchwood. anyway, i loved the book and am really looking forward to the next installment. :)


just hope queen death doesn't turn out to be todd's daughter or similar as that's a tad obvious ... still if he has to choose her or atlantis ... and chooses atlantis, shepp might finally trust him! :D

Tinah
January 15th, 2011, 02:32 AM
i'm not overly keen on the actual names given to the wraith in the books (yes, todd will always/only be todd to me too!), but understand the necessity of naming them

Yes, that's exactly how I felt, too. Then again, I'm in another fandom where characters have "English word names" ( Elfquest ), and right now I'm having huge problems coming up with names for my characters. So I understand how difficult it can be, coming up with a name that encompasses the central traits of the character, as they distinguish him/her from other characters of that species, and still is reasonably short and pretty in written form. Then of course there's the question if it's even possible to have unique names for each Wraith, or if there could possibly be more than one "Guide" ( like there are lots of "John Smith" ). Is "Guide" his full name, or is it actually "Guide of [insert hive of birth / current residence here]" or something? ( Somehow I don't think Wraith have social security numbers... ;) ) Maybe not all Wraith have personal names, maybe they have to earn them through some sort of accomplishment? ( There is the term "hive mind" after all. ) How many Wraith are there, how many words in the Wraith language, is there a telepathic component to a name, like a certain feeling like humans have individual scents? ( Like I'm pretty sure that a big part of how my cat sees my identity is my scent. ) Interesting questions... probably already explored in Wraith-centric fanfiction. ;)

Atlantis4Life
January 15th, 2011, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure I got as much out of this book as everyone else did. Don't get me wrong, the parts of this book that are mission based were just pure good, totally awesome SGA, but there were some glaring character issues that I came across that just jolted me out of reading the book for a moment. I'd have to regroup and go back in. At about page 89, the character discrepancies got to be so great that I had to tell myself just think of this book like a STAR TREK Myriad Universes "what if" sort of a thing just to finish it. I was glad that Melissa made an apology for such problems in the author's note at the end though. But still...I'm not sure I hold out much hope for The Lost coming out soon. The Sheppard-Teyla-Torren thing and Teyla all of a sudden basically abandoning her people and son...I don't know. That's all I can really say, I just don't know.

*Goes to check out page 89 and note at end of the book.* I'll be back to comment on that later.

However, I will say this: In EATG, Torren and Kanaan were left on New Athos for their protection - so it makes sense that she didn't bring them into a war with her. How many warriors/military people does anyone know of that take their infant children into war with them??? Just sayin'...

Again, like Arnold, I'll be back... :cool:

UPDATE:

Okay, I read page 89 (I still have yet to read the book, btw), and the flying thing was a little odd. Melissa wrote what I'd call a fairly standard disclaimer for someone new to the Stargate franchise, Atlantis particularly, but she said she got a lot of help and feedback from "early readers." Plus Jo isn't new to Stargate, and so I think that the book might be something I'll enjoy in spite of a few little things here and there. I'll see. :)

Screw
January 21st, 2011, 11:05 PM
Amazon.de seems to have finally received their shipment. They sent my order out yesterday (I'd pre-ordered it in november...).
Can't wait to finally read it!

The Flyattractor
January 22nd, 2011, 06:19 PM
just hope queen death doesn't turn out to be todd's daughter or similar as that's a tad obvious ... still if he has to choose her or atlantis ... and chooses atlantis, shepp might finally trust him! :D

The only reason I could see Todd doing that is if Death's plan turns out to be really stupid and will destroy all the humans in the galaxy.
Bit of a oops on the wraiths part.

WraithTech
January 24th, 2011, 05:27 AM
yay. Finallly got my copy of homecoming.
2 chapters in and I must say.. Its as good a read as the show was to watch.

They managed to capture the humor most excellently.

Agreed! :D I am a proud Wraith Worshipper and, although the book is 98% focused on the humans, I still found the human parts also made my jaw drop with well-thought details like how Zelenka's birthplace impacted his views and how Teyla felt the Tau'ri might view her native culture. I also found the Todd parts to be very well-fitting for what was established about his character in the show, especially in regards to wasteful practices.




I'm looking forward to hopefully getting some drastic changes. I want to see someone die and I want to see them use this lack of reset button.

:eek:


A question/spoiler about the old and new seires.

In homecoming. Todd/Guide mentions that he has/had a daughter named Snow. Was this ever mentioned in the previous series or just in homecoming?

Only in Homecoming - Snow was his consort and Queen; their daughter's name was not given.



i'm not overly keen on the actual names given to the wraith in the books (yes, todd will always/only be todd to me too!), but understand the necessity of naming them - how else would the writers distinguish who they were talking about in a book/series (hopefully) full of wraith characters if all they said was 'the male wraith', 'the commander' or 'the queen' etc every time - things might get a tad confusing very quickly! :)

just hope queen death doesn't turn out to be todd's daughter or similar as that's a tad obvious ... still if he has to choose her or atlantis ... and chooses atlantis, shepp might finally trust him! :D


I actually don't mind the names so much and think Guide lives up to his name for his people. Going back far enough, most names have meanings derived from words in other languages. Root names and meanings can be found for SGA names like John, Elizabeth, Richard, and Radek.

There is also still the possibility that the Wraith names might be different in the Wraith language with approximations being as close as possible to writing them in Tau'ri print.

I got the impression QD was born long after Guide's daughter was born and she also has a different hair color (scarlet vs. black, although it could have been changed naturally or artificially). I hope QD isn't his daughter (or grand-daughter for that matter) after she was throwing him hints that she has no consort and John was detecting some attraction from Guide for QD! :eek:

My prediction:

Jennifer will find a viable solution to Wraith feeding needs. The writers seem to be building a case for it by emphasizing how tragic the need for such a solution is on both sides, building tension in the story that needs to be resolved. Also, Jennifer charging herself with this task could be foreshadowing.

Lt.UrsulaKenmore
February 4th, 2011, 05:41 PM
See...

However, I will say this: In EATG, Torren and Kanaan were left on New Athos for their protection - so it makes sense that she didn't bring them into a war with her. How many warriors/military people does anyone know of that take their infant children into war with them??? Just sayin'...

That's what I'm kinda talking about. Torren never went to Earth with Teyla so how could he have possibly ended up on Earth with her when they could dial back? And if they could dial back why would Kanaan send just Torren through and not go with him too? It's such a little thing and yet such a big thing in terms of character that it seemed odd to me that that would be one of the authors discrepancies.

Lt.UrsulaKenmore
February 4th, 2011, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=mercy moon;12250672]i'm not overly keen on the actual names given to the wraith in the books (yes, todd will always/only be todd to me too!), but understand the necessity of naming them - how else would the writers distinguish who they were talking about in a book/series (hopefully) full of wraith characters if all they said was 'the male wraith', 'the commander' or 'the queen' etc every time - things might get a tad confusing very quickly! :)

Me too. They just sounded kind of...well, lame.

Lt.UrsulaKenmore
February 4th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Don't get me wrong, "Homecoming" is still an !awesome! read. It was just there were some facts and character things that caught me off guard. And they were such easy things to take into account that what threw me the most about them was that they hadn't been taken into account. But still "Homecoming" is a good book and I've got "The Lost" already on pre-order. (I've got to find out what happens next and please don't let Rodney be the one that might get killed, Please, Please, PLEASE!!!!!

Atlantis4Life
February 4th, 2011, 05:59 PM
See...


However, I will say this: In EATG, Torren and Kanaan were left on New Athos for their protection - so it makes sense that she didn't bring them into a war with her. How many warriors/military people does anyone know of that take their infant children into war with them??? Just sayin'...

That's what I'm kinda talking about. Torren never went to Earth with Teyla so how could he have possibly ended up on Earth with her when they could dial back? And if they could dial back why would Kanaan send just Torren through and not go with him too? It's such a little thing and yet such a big thing in terms of character that it seemed odd to me that that would be one of the authors discrepancies.

I'll get back to you once I've read the book. That might be a little while since I've still got to read Death Game first. Whenever I want to read these books, I don't have the time. And when I do have time, I don't feel like reading so I watch an episode instead... Still, I promise that I'll get back to you about this. I just don't want to give a full comment on a book I have yet to read.

Cheers.

hedwig
February 4th, 2011, 06:02 PM
See...

However, I will say this: In EATG, Torren and Kanaan were left on New Athos for their protection - so it makes sense that she didn't bring them into a war with her. How many warriors/military people does anyone know of that take their infant children into war with them??? Just sayin'...

That's what I'm kinda talking about. Torren never went to Earth with Teyla so how could he have possibly ended up on Earth with her when they could dial back? And if they could dial back why would Kanaan send just Torren through and not go with him too? It's such a little thing and yet such a big thing in terms of character that it seemed odd to me that that would be one of the authors discrepancies.

Actually, according to Joe Mallozzi in one of his blogs, somebody asked them about Torren and Kanan, and his reply was they were on Atlantis with Teyla when Atlantis went to earth. Even though nothing was said in EatG, this was Joe's answer to that question.

Starsaber
February 5th, 2011, 06:28 PM
just hope queen death doesn't turn out to be todd's daughter or similar as that's a tad obvious ... still if he has to choose her or atlantis ... and chooses atlantis, shepp might finally trust him! :D


If Snow was his daughter, it actually said she died. On Page 35, it said that Snow died when his hive was damaged in one of the last battles of the Wraith/Ancient war.

WraithTech
February 5th, 2011, 06:48 PM
If Snow was his daughter, it actually said she died. On Page 35, it said that Snow died when his hive was damaged in one of the last battles of the Wraith/Ancient war.



Snow was the hive Queen and per Jo's Livejournal answer to a question about an upcoming book,

"We also see, in flashback, Todd/Guide's daughter, Alabaster, as a child in his memory, and find out what happened to her and how he came to be captured by the Genii."

Hagazussa
March 6th, 2011, 10:17 PM
I have just ordered Homecoming and I am hoping the book will have arrived when I go home tomorrow as I have spent two weeks visiting my mother and that might have been enough time for the book to arrive to me here in Norway.

Elite Anubis Guard
March 7th, 2011, 11:53 AM
The Lost is now out too. Am waiting for my copy.

Hagazussa
March 7th, 2011, 02:06 PM
Is The Lost possible to buy as a physical book? I thought it had not been published yet and would not be for a few months yet.

WraithTech
March 7th, 2011, 04:02 PM
Is The Lost possible to buy as a physical book? I thought it had not been published yet and would not be for a few months yet.

"The Lost" is available to buy and started shipping on 3/6/11; however, the cost of shipping is making many people wait until the local book stores start stocking them.

http://www.stargatenovels.com/bookshop.php

Hagazussa
March 7th, 2011, 09:32 PM
I doubt my local bookstore here in Norway will get these books in stock, they have some fantasy literature but mostly paranormal romance, which is nice, I like that but there is little variation. There is a specialty store for science fiction, fantasy and horror not that far from me but buss fees to go in there and look for the book is about as high as shipping is.

Hagazussa
March 12th, 2011, 11:53 PM
I am currently reading Stargate Atlantis Homecoming and for the most part I love the book, I highly recommend it. There is one thing I do not like however, the Wraith are named. Now for names we have for example Bonewhite, Iron, seriously I know they are green but they are not orcs and that is what they sound like. When I hear names such as Bonewhite I begin to think, I am Bonewhite bone crusher, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg, your bones will be given to our shaman as tribute...hum...oh I was not reading Warhammer my bad.

My main problem with the Wraith being named is that it is a major mystery in the series why the Wraith never give their names, to just name them cheapen that. Now there are a few scenes in the series where the Wraith speak amongst themselves with no humans present and they do not use names then either, they refer to one another by position in the Hive, something which is rather natural. Many societies have not used names the way we do, your name where your profession, that is why we have names like Baker or Smith today. In Japan this was even more prevalent. There is an old Japanese novel, in fact it is one of the first examples of a book being written just for entertainment, and is often called the world's first novel. This book is called The Tale of Genji and it is extremely hard to follow the story as hardly anyone is named. At the time in Japan personal names where considered so private that to even name a fictional character was not done. Everyone is referred to by position. Governor, Lady's Maid and so on, the problem is that as time go on in the fictional world people's positions in society chance, and then their description do as well and as there is no names to go by it get problematic to keep up. However back on track with my post here, it would make sense if the Wraith had something similar, they have a hive based society, the hive is everything, it would make sense that they might not even have personal names but they are Hall Guard, Commander, Dart Pilot and so on.

Another possibility I have considered is that their names might be telepathic. A good example of telepathic names would be in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time where wolves are nearly as intelligent as humans are, they can walk people's dreams and they are telepathic. One of the main characters have the rare ability that he can speak with wolves and in the beginning grasping their names is hard, as a wolf's name might be a stretch of riverbank with paw prints in the snow a sunrise playing on the water and the sound of a fish breaking the surface. How do you translate that into words a non telepathic creature can understand?

I am just guessing here, however what we know is that no Wraith have ever given their name, not one and there have to be a better reason than their names sounding stupid, also none of the named Wraith have minded their new names. Someone who look at names the way people do will usually be rather testy if someone try to rename them. A nickname among friends is one thing, however take various societies who have had slaves, for example America, there exist interviews with slaves and former slaves and one of the things which was mentioned as a debasement, right alongside rape and physical violence is often having their names changed. Names is important to people, allot of our identity rest on our names. However the Wraith in Stargate do not even flinch when they are given names by Sheppard, they just shrug in a oh well if you need to put such a handle on me way.

Bottom line it seams unlikely to me that the Wraith have names the same way humans do, there have to be a reason why they are so unwilling to give their names, perhaps they can't, perhaps they do not have names as we would see it, or their names are telepathic and impossible to translate into a short, physical sound. Naming the Wraith Guide, Bonewhite and Snow is just disappointing, it just takes that great mystery and throw it out the window for convenience as it is easier to write a character who have a conventional name, and that is disappointing.

Another thing which is disappointing is that Todd remembering back appears to have had two children with his first Queen. What? First he have a name and now he do the hubba hubba which a Queen? It is not described exactly how Wraith produce young in Stargate Atlantis but it is said that it is not done as humans do it, and it would be impossible to do it the way humans do it, there are thousands of males per one female, the female can not just get pregnant and give birth that is to slow, the race would plain die out with so few females. It is said that the Queen provide the genetic material for new Wraith, probably it works like with many insects, the Queen are fertilized once and then the males are not needed anymore other than to protect her and attend upon her. Wraith Queens do not, and I repeat do not do the hubba bubba with their Commanders and then birth them daughters and name them Snow! I feel that the authors of this book tried to much to humanize the Wraith, however that do not work, they are alien, and they should then be alien, their names and reproduction should be alien, do make them seam more human is to cheapen them.

escyos
March 12th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Well in my opinion the books are not canon and thus have no consequence.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 01:02 AM
They may not be cannon and may not have a consequence on the TV series, however the books themselves would be more enjoyable if they did not give Wraiths actual names left and right.

Isolde
March 13th, 2011, 01:26 AM
@ Hagazussa: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html This is Jo's personal blog, and if you go through her archive, or ask orb (who will undoubtedly have the correct links for the info), she explains many of the points you raised in your lengthy post. The names used for Wraith are linked to their telepathy, and are the idea of Melissa Scott. I tried to find her blog too, but wasn't able to, so orb will prolly have that as well. :)

@ escyos: As TPTB i.e. MGM have vetted these and they've passed muster, then they are as good as canon. We aren't going to get a film.

escyos
March 13th, 2011, 01:53 AM
@ escyos: As TPTB i.e. MGM have vetted these and they've passed muster, then they are as good as canon. We aren't going to get a film.

MGM has had no say in what is on screen (well nothing of consequence to the story i.e. Sha're nude), as for the "pass(ing) muster" you do know how that works dont you? :

Step 1: A company pays to use the Stargate franchise
Step 2: Thats it

there is no rigorous screening, just a little plot summary and the basics of whats happening and they get their money. presto.

And i never mentioned getting a film, as much as i would like it, the film is the most likely continuation, instead of non-canon novels which DESTROY canon.

Leeta
March 13th, 2011, 03:17 AM
I am currently reading Stargate Atlantis Homecoming and for the most part I love the book, I highly recommend it. There is one thing I do not like however, the Wraith are named. Now for names we have for example Bonewhite, Iron, seriously I know they are green but they are not orcs and that is what they sound like. When I hear names such as Bonewhite I begin to think, I am Bonewhite bone crusher, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg, your bones will be given to our shaman as tribute...hum...oh I was not reading Warhammer my bad.

I was thinking more along the lines of WoW since I never played Warhammer. :P But I like their names and the names are only suppose to be a rough translation of what they call each other. Isolde put a very good link up with the author explaining alot of it.




Naming the Wraith Guide, Bonewhite and Snow is just disappointing, it just takes that great mystery and throw it out the window for convenience as it is easier to write a character who have a conventional name, and that is disappointing.

If the wraith are talking to each other and calling each other by name then it's not really taking away the mystery to me. It's like not they are talking to Sheppard and telling him what their names are.


Another thing which is disappointing is that Todd remembering back appears to have had two children with his first Queen. What? First he have a name and now he do the hubba hubba which a Queen? It is not described exactly how Wraith produce young in Stargate Atlantis but it is said that it is not done as humans do it, and it would be impossible to do it the way humans do it, there are thousands of males per one female, the female can not just get pregnant and give birth that is to slow, the race would plain die out with so few females. It is said that the Queen provide the genetic material for new Wraith, probably it works like with many insects, the Queen are fertilized once and then the males are not needed anymore other than to protect her and attend upon her. Wraith Queens do not, and I repeat do not do the hubba bubba with their Commanders and then birth them daughters and name them Snow! I feel that the authors of this book tried to much to humanize the Wraith, however that do not work, they are alien, and they should then be alien, their names and reproduction should be alien, do make them seam more human is to cheapen them.

They are suppose to be partly human so I think it could be possible for them to have reproduction methods similar to humans. The show never went into detail about it. The science in the show was, as some others have called it, 'shonky' at best.




MGM has had no say in what is on screen (well nothing of consequence to the story i.e. Sha're nude), as for the "pass(ing) muster" you do know how that works dont you? :
Step 1: A company pays to use the Stargate franchise
Step 2: Thats it

there is no rigorous screening, just a little plot summary and the basics of whats happening and they get their money. presto.

And i never mentioned getting a film, as much as i would like it, the film is the most likely continuation, instead of non-canon novels which DESTROY canon.

Damn those books with their paradoxes and crazy canon!

JMSwallow
March 13th, 2011, 03:57 AM
escyos, you are of course entitled to your opinion about the canonicity (or lack thereof) in the Stargate tie-ins, but I'm afraid what you're saying here about the production and approval process is utterly incorrect.


as for the "pass(ing) muster" you do know how that works dont you? :
Step 1: A company pays to use the Stargate franchise
Step 2: Thats it
there is no rigorous screening, just a little plot summary and the basics of whats happening and they get their money. presto.

Clearly, you don't know how it works. For your information;

Fandemonium Books (and also Big Finish Productions with the audio dramas and Dynamite Entertainment with the comics) pay a fee to MGM for the official licence, and a percentage from the sales of each tie-in work.

In return, the works created are vetted at every stage by staff at MGM's internal licencing office, who police them for editorial and continuity issues, and ensure that they synch as much as possible with the on-screen iterations of the Stargate shows.

This is a long and involved process that can take several months and progresses through a number of cycles; initially an outline is submitted for first stage approval. These documents are typically up to 10,000 words in length, and are in no way "a little plot summary".

This outline must be approved by MGM et al, and may require changes/rewrites; then the novel/script/comic is written, and that material passes through the same lengthy approval process (which again may require many revisions) before finally being cleared for publication.

Isolde
March 13th, 2011, 05:11 AM
MGM has had no say in what is on screen (well nothing of consequence to the story i.e. Sha're nude), as for the "pass(ing) muster" you do know how that works dont you? :

Step 1: A company pays to use the Stargate franchise
Step 2: Thats it

there is no rigorous screening, just a little plot summary and the basics of whats happening and they get their money. presto.

And i never mentioned getting a film, as much as i would like it, the film is the most likely continuation, instead of non-canon novels which DESTROY canon.

Indeed, you didn't mention a film, but I inferred from your comment it is only that you will accept as canon. I do so love to be patronised.

However, as JMSwallow has outlined the number of hoops an author needs to jump through in order to produce an acceptable manuscript, I really don't think I need to say much more.

escyos
March 13th, 2011, 05:20 AM
escyos, you are of course entitled to your opinion about the canonicity (or lack thereof) in the Stargate tie-ins, but I'm afraid what you're saying here about the production and approval process is utterly incorrect.



Clearly, you don't know how it works. For your information;

Fandemonium Books (and also Big Finish Productions with the audio dramas and Dynamite Entertainment with the comics) pay a fee to MGM for the official licence, and a percentage from the sales of each tie-in work.

In return, the works created are vetted at every stage by staff at MGM's internal licencing office, who police them for editorial and continuity issues, and ensure that they synch as much as possible with the on-screen iterations of the Stargate shows.

This is a long and involved process that can take several months and progresses through a number of cycles; initially an outline is submitted for first stage approval. These documents are typically up to 10,000 words in length, and are in no way "a little plot summary".

This outline must be approved by MGM et al, and may require changes/rewrites; then the novel/script/comic is written, and that material passes through the same lengthy approval process (which again may require many revisions) before finally being cleared for publication.

MGM has no say in Stargate, they never have (mostly) and never should, they are merely doing it for the money, not for the fans.

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 05:29 AM
@ Hagazussa: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html This is Jo's personal blog, and if you go through her archive, or ask orb (who will undoubtedly have the correct links for the info), she explains many of the points you raised in your lengthy post. The names used for Wraith are linked to their telepathy, and are the idea of Melissa Scott. I tried to find her blog too, but wasn't able to, so orb will prolly have that as well. :)


Melissa Scott's blog has a good Wraith name explanation:
http://mescott.livejournal.com/2727.html



This is a long and involved process that can take several months and progresses through a number of cycles; initially an outline is submitted for first stage approval. These documents are typically up to 10,000 words in length, and are in no way "a little plot summary".


Thanks for letting us know how this process works.

I so wish that "Halcyon" could be reprinted, BTW. I've tried writing to Fandy a few times. :P

JoGraham
March 13th, 2011, 05:42 AM
escyos, you are of course entitled to your opinion about the canonicity (or lack thereof) in the Stargate tie-ins, but I'm afraid what you're saying here about the production and approval process is utterly incorrect.



Clearly, you don't know how it works. For your information;

Fandemonium Books (and also Big Finish Productions with the audio dramas and Dynamite Entertainment with the comics) pay a fee to MGM for the official licence, and a percentage from the sales of each tie-in work.

In return, the works created are vetted at every stage by staff at MGM's internal licencing office, who police them for editorial and continuity issues, and ensure that they synch as much as possible with the on-screen iterations of the Stargate shows.

This is a long and involved process that can take several months and progresses through a number of cycles; initially an outline is submitted for first stage approval. These documents are typically up to 10,000 words in length, and are in no way "a little plot summary".

This outline must be approved by MGM et al, and may require changes/rewrites; then the novel/script/comic is written, and that material passes through the same lengthy approval process (which again may require many revisions) before finally being cleared for publication.

JM Swallow is absolutely correct.

With Homecoming, MGM did a line by line, word by word edit, not once, but twice, in addition to the initial proposal for the Legacy series and the lengthy and specific outline for Homecoming. There is not one comma in Homecoming that has not been specifically approved by MGM.

Isolde
March 13th, 2011, 06:27 AM
MGM has no say in Stargate, they never have (mostly) and never should, they are merely doing it for the money, not for the fans.

I hate to burst your cosy bubble, medear, but nothing is ever done for the fans. Inevitably, all any company is interested in is making a buck outta us, the ever ready punter, and if a franchise like SG acquires 'fans' along the way, all the better for that particular mechanism to work. As for MGM having no say, I beg to differ, as they own the franchise, which means that though Brad Wright has rights over his intellecual property, they have developed the idea using their money. And there we are again, going full circle. ;)

escyos
March 13th, 2011, 06:39 AM
I hate to burst your cosy bubble, medear, but nothing is ever done for the fans. Inevitably, all any company is interested in is making a buck outta us, the ever ready punter, and if a franchise like SG acquires 'fans' along the way, all the better for that particular mechanism to work. As for MGM having no say, I beg to differ, as they own the franchise, which means that though Brad Wright has rights over his intellecual property, they have developed the idea using their money. And there we are again, going full circle. ;)

i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you

Isolde
March 13th, 2011, 07:08 AM
i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you

Mmm, recourse in figurative hair pulling. I do love a lively debate, and this certainly isn't one. :P Produce an argument that indicates JMSwallow or I are incorrect and I'll consider it.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 08:51 AM
Hagazussa: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html This is Jo's personal blog, and if you go through her archive, or ask orb (who will undoubtedly have the correct links for the info), she explains many of the points you raised in your lengthy post. The names used for Wraith are linked to their telepathy, and are the idea of Melissa Scott. I tried to find her blog too, but wasn't able to, so orb will prolly have that as well.

Thank you for the information. I will have a look at it.


I was thinking more along the lines of WoW since I never played Warhammer. But I like their names and the names are only suppose to be a rough translation of what they call each other. Isolde put a very good link up with the author explaining alot of it.


Then why do they not use such rough translations when they speak with humans? Guide, fair enough I could see that on Todd, but why would he be so reluctant to give that name, even if it is a rough translation?


If the wraith are talking to each other and calling each other by name then it's not really taking away the mystery to me. It's like not they are talking to Sheppard and telling him what their names are.

To my mind it do take away the mystery. Some group or race not using their real name, or not informing strangers of it are nothing new, it is nothing mysterious about that, it is more like oh it is a cultural thing. That the Wraith do not use names at all, that is the mystery.


They are suppose to be partly human so I think it could be possible for them to have reproduction methods similar to humans. The show never went into detail about it. The science in the show was, as some others have called it, 'shonky' at best.


It is possible that their reproductive organs work, just like their digestion, however I still have a problem with this, as far as information on how Wraith reproduce is concerned all we have is that it is not like humans do it, and that the Queen provide all the genetic material. Off course it could be that that a given Queen could fancy a given male, do the hubba bubba, get pregnant and have a child that way, however since it is stated in the show that this is not the case, I would like more than a two sentence afterthought if this is going to take place in a novel, I want to then have it explained as to how could this be.


And i never mentioned getting a film, as much as i would like it, the film is the most likely continuation, instead of non-canon novels which DESTROY canon.

I do not think the books destroy canon, they do not affect the TV series. I would personally enjoy the books a little more if some things where different, but that is a long way from them destroying the canon of the series.


Melissa Scott's blog has a good Wraith name explanation:
http://mescott.livejournal.com/2727.html

Thank you for the link, very kind of you to post it for me.


I so wish that "Halcyon" could be reprinted, BTW. I've tried writing to Fandy a few times.

Me to, I want that book. I am considering getting it even at the collectors prices it go for.

Oh and I am sorry, I did not mean to create a thread to argue in, I was just expressing my own views on the Homecoming book and the naming of Wraiths, nothing more.

Elite Anubis Guard
March 13th, 2011, 09:26 AM
i dont care anymore, just keep on being wrong, it suits you

Like I said in reply to a previous post from you which seems to have been deleted...don't like novels, don't come in a topic to discuss a novel you clearly haven't read.

KyshaMalini
March 13th, 2011, 09:45 AM
Then why do they not use such rough translations when they speak with humans? Guide, fair enough I could see that on Todd, but why would he be so reluctant to give that name, even if it is a rough translation?

Perhaps it's just that this rough translation wouldn't occur to them. I mean, take an everyday word such as "The". How would you explain to an alien who had no equivalent of the word "The" in their own language, what the word means?


It is possible that their reproductive organs work, just like their digestion, however I still have a problem with this, as far as information on how Wraith reproduce is concerned all we have is that it is not like humans do it, and that the Queen provide all the genetic material. Off course it could be that that a given Queen could fancy a given male, do the hubba bubba, get pregnant and have a child that way, however since it is stated in the show that this is not the case, I would like more than a two sentence afterthought if this is going to take place in a novel, I want to then have it explained as to how could this be.

Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.

True, it is just like real life science where new discoveries make humans rethink past theories. On the show, we only witnessed one Queen creating only masked warriors this way and in a special facility, not a hive ship.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 10:11 AM
Perhaps it's just that this rough translation wouldn't occur to them. I mean, take an everyday word such as "The". How would you explain to an alien who had no equivalent of the word "The" in their own language, what the word means?

Well we do not have a word that translates directly to the in Norwegian so you do not have to go so far as space for that. I get your point with this, it is possible that a direct translation would not occur to them, but it still feels a bit overly simplified in the novels.


Whenever this was stated, it was stated by humans who admitted to having very little knowledge as to how the wraith worked biologically. They were just spouting off theories, it was never concrete.

Well there are some things supporting it, one thing is that it is a rather educated guess, another is that Todd says that hives without a Queen are vulnerable since they have no way to replenish their numbers, and then you have the whole thing with it would not work if it is done the human way. Ok there are 60 give take a few hive ships in Pegasus, each one have thousands of Wraith and one Queen, and some ships do not even have a Queen, but at best that would mean 60 females at all for the whole Wraith race. Even if they was pregnant constantly it would not be enough, it would just take to long to replenish their numbers that way.

Remember if you only have a slight decrease in females in a race then you will see population drop like a stone, one female per many thousand, it is no way that would work. And besides none of the Queen we have seen in the series have been pregnant. I think it is far more likely their reproduction resemble that of insects when you put all the facts together.

Draco-Stellaris
March 13th, 2011, 10:53 AM
The only hints we got in the show about Wraith reproduction were the Queen emitting genetic material for the cloned drones and a subtle conversation between McKay and Sheppard in 'Vengenace': (taken from the GW transcripts)


DEX: So, what? They’re tryin’ to create more Wraith?

SHEPPARD: That doesn’t make any more sense. If they wanted to create more Wraith, wouldn’t it be easier to get a male and female to, you know, get a room?

McKAY: It doesn’t work that way with the Wraith, alright? At least, we don’t think it does. We’re not entirely sure as to the Wraiths’ reproductive methods.

SHEPPARD: I don’t wanna be around to watch that film.

They just guess what's going on but they don't know for certain how Wraith reproduce.

Isolde
March 13th, 2011, 11:24 AM
Well there are some things supporting it, 1.one thing is that it is a rather educated guess, another is that 2.Todd says that hives without a Queen are vulnerable since they have no way to replenish their numbers, and then you have the whole thing with it would not work if it is done the human way. Ok there are 60 give take a few hive ships in Pegasus, each one have thousands of Wraith and one Queen, and some ships do not even have a Queen, but at best that would mean 60 females at all for the whole Wraith race. Even if they was pregnant constantly it would not be enough, it would just take to long to replenish their numbers that way.

3.Remember if you only have a slight decrease in females in a race then you will see population drop like a stone, one female per many thousand, it is no way that would work. 4.And besides none of the Queen we have seen in the series have been pregnant. I think it is far more likely their reproduction resemble that of insects when you put all the facts together.

OK, here goes:


First it's a guess from Rodney, who clearly stated on many occasions that Biology isn't real science - remember all those instances with Carson where he ridicules him for being a doctor? He treated Jen in exactly the same way before the horrible mistake that is McKeller, so in my book that does not make him a definitive authority on anything biological. He's a twit, albeit a well meaning one.
There is no doubt the drones are clones, and there is a lengthy discussion on the WDC about parthenogenesis in vertebrates, which is rare, and only occurs in a couple of reptile species on earth. Drones do not need to be reproduced sexually, but the 'blades' and 'clevermen' do, and are better for it as they have more genetic variation.
You're quite correct, having so few females is a genetic choke point (Jo Graham's phrase), but this is also a technologically advanced species, who prolly know a thing or two about IVF, and surragacy. Plus Wraith have very long lives, and hibernate a lot, which allows for a great many pregnancies.
Just because we haven't seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist.


Just because the analogy for the Iratus is that they are a 'bug' does not mean it is an insect. I utterly refute that, because it is an alien creature. Also, in The Lost (I believe) Carson clearly states he was wrong about the Wraith being more Iratus than human. It's the other way round. There's more monkey than 'bug' in 'em, not that I care, because they are still HAWT! :D

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 12:02 PM
# First it's a guess from Rodney, who clearly stated on many occasions that Biology isn't real science - remember all those instances with Carson where he ridicules him for being a doctor? He treated Jen in exactly the same way before the horrible mistake that is McKeller, so in my book that does not make him a definitive authority on anything biological. He's a twit, albeit a well meaning one.

They also discuss Wraith reproduction at another time, and they got a fair amount of information in the end of season two, so I would still call the guess educated, however yes this is the weakest indication, I agree about that.


You're quite correct, having so few females is a genetic choke point (Jo Graham's phrase), but this is also a technologically advanced species, who prolly know a thing or two about IVF, and surragacy. Plus Wraith have very long lives, and hibernate a lot, which allows for a great many pregnancies.

Yes off course they do not need to reproduce as often as humans do, but still it would be to slow a reproduction, especially since they do loose allot of men in battle. And also we never, ever see a pregnant Queen. If human reproduction was to be how they did it, if they where going to have a chance in hell of reproducing fast enough that would mean the Queens would be constantly pregnant and we do not see one who are. This is the strongest indication that they do not reproduce like humans do, it just would not work.


Just because we haven't seen one, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Now, however we have seen actually a certain percentage of all Wraith Queens, and if they where to birth children like humans that would be in itself far, far to inefficient with so few females, and if it was to have any chance of working that means the Queens had to be pregnant allot. Now we have seen at least 6 Queens not counting Ellia and the one they find at the bottom of the sea, that is over 10 percent of all Wraith females in existence, and non of them where pregnant, that is saying something.


Just because the analogy for the Iratus is that they are a 'bug' does not mean it is an insect. I utterly refute that, because it is an alien creature. Also, in The Lost (I believe) Carson clearly states he was wrong about the Wraith being more Iratus than human. It's the other way round. There's more monkey than 'bug' in 'em, not that I care, because they are still HAWT!

They can be one percent bug and the rest human for all I care. I am just observing that with 60 and most likely less females they could not keep their numbers up through normal pregnancies, and especially not since none of those seen, over 10 percent of them, where not pregnant.

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 12:18 PM
Now we have seen at least 6 Queens not counting Ellia and the one they find at the bottom of the sea, that is over 10 percent of all Wraith females in existence, and non of them where pregnant, that is saying something.


Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.

Draco-Stellaris
March 13th, 2011, 12:21 PM
Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.

This is a good point. A pregnancy is a tremendous strain on the body, I guess that's true even for a Wraith. All the Queens we have seen were just woken up from hibernation and found themselves in a civil-war-like situation. They wouldn't want to weaken themselves in such a dangerous time.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 02:23 PM
Would they want to give birth in a time of great hunger and civil war though? It is one thing to make batches of grown masked warriors do go out and do the dirty battle work, but another to raise children in such conditions.

Yes I think they would as they know the losses would be great and someone have to replenish their numbers and if they have children the way humans do they know that replenishing those numbers will take allot of time, if they do it more like ants or bees do it then they might wait as then the birthing process takes less time, however if they do it like human beings then every second counts.

Remember in any society those of privilege have to pay for it. The payment might be far less than the privilege but still, there is a reason why someone is in power. Among Wraith the sole purpose of the Queens is to replenish their numbers, they could not stop doing that when it was needed the most that would remove their purpose.

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 02:39 PM
Among Wraith the sole purpose of the Queens is to replenish their numbers, they could not stop doing that when it was needed the most that would remove their purpose.

Queens provide some other benefits, like enhanced telepathic powers to keep the ship in order and to interrogate enemies. :P

After the civil war and/or after food supply becomes sustainable, the Wraith could breed all Queens for a while to ensure each hive has a Queen again to start replenishing their numbers. From how Todd described Snow giving him a daughter, the Wraith have more control over the genders of their children.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 03:38 PM
I still do not see it as plausible that 60 females could keep an entire race alive if they have babies the human way, I just do not see it, it is just to much of a bottleneck.

Was not Snow the name of the daughter?

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 03:59 PM
Was not Snow the name of the daughter?

Interesting... There must be something about the way it is worded in the book, because others have interpreted it that way too. Looking on pages 34 and 35 of "Homecoming," it is worded ambiguously, now that I re-read it. It is clearer on page 279 when Todd recalls Snow's zenana preserving the hive, which makes Snow the Queen and mother.

Todd's daughter's name was Alabaster, per Jo's blog.

Hagazussa
March 13th, 2011, 04:14 PM
I just though it was the daughter as Todd remembers getting a daughter and right after he thinks of how gentle Snow's mind felt on his while he watched her sleep, that just made me think it was the daughter he was talking about.

WraithTech
March 13th, 2011, 04:25 PM
I just though it was the daughter as Todd remembers getting a daughter and right after he thinks of how gentle Snow's mind felt on his while he watched her sleep, that just made me think it was the daughter he was talking about.

If Jo drops back by the thread, this could be useful feedback. The other example of someone with the same interpretation is here: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?78343-Atlantis-Homecoming&p=12310604&viewfull=1#post12310604

seldear
March 13th, 2011, 07:31 PM
Snow is the Queen who took Guide as a consort. Alabaster is the daughter of Queen Snow and the consort Guide.

You have no reason to trust me on this, but it's definitely so. :)

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 12:09 AM
I am not saying that is not so, or that it is not clarified further on in the series. I am just saying that early in Homecoming the way it is written makes me think that Snow is the daughter whatever or not that is right or not.

Isolde
March 14th, 2011, 04:55 AM
Yes off course they do not need to reproduce as often as humans do, but still it would be to slow a reproduction, especially since they do loose allot of men in battle. And also we never, ever see a pregnant Queen. If human reproduction was to be how they did it, if they where going to have a chance in hell of reproducing fast enough that would mean the Queens would be constantly pregnant and we do not see one who are. This is the strongest indication that they do not reproduce like humans do, it just would not work.

And of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. :)


They can be one percent bug and the rest human for all I care. I am just observing that with 60 and most likely less females they could not keep their numbers up through normal pregnancies, and especially not since none of those seen, over 10 percent of them, where not pregnant.

This is a very arbtrary figure, and I'm under the impression that you are simply adding up the number of hives and deducting the rate of attrition with regard to Queens? So you don't think there would be more to Wraith civilisation than what we've seen on screen i.e. hives? You don't think there would be an industrial base from which all this tech is derived, or that their society might be semi-nomadic, or possibly that there could be an agrarian facet to the culture? How do they feed their children, which are established as requiring food to live, where are the children kept, who cares for them, and how? Who manufactures all the equipment we've seen, and where is their industrial base?

No society exists in a vacuum, and Wraith are way past the hunter gatherer stage. This is a species that has FTL, and therefore must also have much greater recourse to methods we do not understand ourselves. Indulge me, and say if Wraith do use IVF (or equivalent) to manufacture blades/clevermen, then they could be podded up for gestation, which would bypass the need for pregnancy. But Wraith did not, could not, evolve and then pull the tech from out their backsides - that is sheer idiocy - so at one time in their evolution they would have had to rely on old-fashioned sexual reproduction.

Other factors you have to add in are the very distinct possibility that the Ancients did more than have a negligent hand in their evolution, and that they were used by said Ancients as some kind of experiment.

Draco-Stellaris
March 14th, 2011, 05:12 AM
Other factors you have to add in are the very distinct possibility that the Ancients did more than have a negligent hand in their evolution, and that they were used by said Ancients as some kind of experiment.


I agree. Based on what Carson said about his previous theory being possibly faulty, I'd say we could assume the uneven gender ratios in Wraith population are unlikely to be purely the product of a natural evolution process but could be the result of some sort of genetic engineering/meddling. Who meddled and for what purpose remains the question.

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 05:58 AM
This is a very arbtrary figure, and I'm under the impression that you are simply adding up the number of hives and deducting the rate of attrition with regard to Queens?

I am using logic, if you have 60 or so hives, which is what is stated in the show that there are, then there are a maximum of 60 Queen as there are only one per hive. 6 is ten percent of 60. In addition since allot of Queens have been killed of the number is probably lower than that, but 60 is the maximum.


So you don't think there would be more to Wraith civilisation than what we've seen on screen i.e. hives?

Off course there is. But since what one have seen on screen is the only thing one have to go on anything else would be pure guesswork, entertaining guesswork, but still guesswork.


You don't think there would be an industrial base from which all this tech is derived, or that their society might be semi-nomadic, or possibly that there could be an agrarian facet to the culture? How do they feed their children, which are established as requiring food to live, where are the children kept, who cares for them, and how? Who manufactures all the equipment we've seen, and where is their industrial base?

Interesting questions. I would assume that they take quite a bit of supplies from the worlds they cull, and their ships is certainly big enough to contain nurseries and fabrication facilities. However anything about this again would be speculation, and even if they did have a central depository or a city somewhere that would not really support the idea that they breed like humans do any more than if they produce all they have on their ships.


No society exists in a vacuum, and Wraith are way past the hunter gatherer stage. This is a species that has FTL, and therefore must also have much greater recourse to methods we do not understand ourselves. Indulge me, and say if Wraith do use IVF (or equivalent) to manufacture blades/clevermen, then they could be podded up for gestation, which would bypass the need for pregnancy. But Wraith did not, could not, evolve and then pull the tech from out their backsides - that is sheer idiocy - so at one time in their evolution they would have had to rely on old-fashioned sexual reproduction.


I am not sure what IVF is but I assume it stands for some sort of artificial gestation. However that is not what am suggesting. There is allot of creatures who do not birth live young. Fish do not grow their young in tanks, the female sprout out a huge number of eggs, which the male then fertilize. (there are variations but this is the most common.) Spiders do not grow their young in tanks, they lay huge amounts of eggs which is then placed in sack like constructions until they hatch. Ants do not grow their young in vats, the queens are fertilized once and then over her lifespan say every now and then plop out an egg which eventually hatch. Birds do not grow their young in vats they lay eggs.

I do not know where you got the idea that I think the Wraith grow their young in test tubes, off course they do not. However I do not think they do the hubba hubba, go pregnant for nine months and then birth a baby. If I am to guess I would say it is more likely that it works like with ants or spiders, with the Queen somehow being fertilized and then producing unfinished offspring in some sort of pod which then matures and hatches as that is a much more effective way to produce many offspring than a nine month pregnancy which results in one child.

I am not saying that there is no sort of sex involved, but I doubt that it is the same as with humans. Let us take common black ants as an example. A few individuals, males and females do not become workers, soldiers and so on, instead they grow wings. These winged ants will fly out of the anthill and mate, allot. After this the male wing ants die and the females are fertilized for life and they, unless killed kill become the queen of a new hill, just as an example here, another example, the Chile Rose tarantula, the female will live for 16 to 40 years, but they do not die of old age, at some point the female get an itch she can not scratch and she stops eating and at the same time she send out pheromones to attract a male. The male will fertilize her. The weakened female will then build a nest and lay her eggs, then she will starve herself to death so that when her myriad of young hatches they can get their first meal from her body. Great white sharks appears to be giving birth to live young, but instead the female lay eggs, but the eggs are internal, the male then fertilizes those eggs, then they hatch still inside the mother. A myriad of tiny, baby sharks live inside their mother, fighting one another, killing and eating their siblings until only the one or two strongest remain who are then born.

There are so many ways nature produces young, and each species have a way to do it which best suits the needs of that race. Why would not Wraith be the same way. Off course the Queen is in some way fertilized, however for a race with so few females it makes allot more sense for her to produce young in a way that A do not weaken her as much as normal human pregnancy do and B produces many babies at once.


I agree. Based on what Carson said about his previous theory being possibly faulty, I'd say the uneven gender ratios in Wraith population are unlikely to be purely the product of a natural evolution process but could be the result of some sort of genetic engineering/meddling. Who meddled and for what purpose remains the question.

I could be that the Ancients developed Wraith as a way to see if it was possible to live of energy completely. They might not have considered that that energy would come from human beings. I am just guessing here, but for some Ancients on the road to Ascension the idea of being sustained by Energy alone might be very seductive.

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 06:06 AM
I am using logic, if you have 60 or so hives, which is what is stated in the show that there are, then there are a maximum of 60 Queen as there are only one per hive. 6 is ten percent of 60. In addition since allot of Queens have been killed of the number is probably lower than that, but 60 is the maximum.


Here is an excerpt from the transcript for "Underground." 60 is the best guess of the Genii for he number for active hiveships and doesn't seem include other facilities, like the cloning facility used in "SOW," or they would have paid that location a visit. :P

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/transcripts/108.shtml



ATLANTIS. CONTROL ROOM. Elizabeth and John walk over to a console where Doctor Peter Grodin is working.

WEIR: Major, I thought you might like to see this.

GRODIN: A lot of the information we downloaded from the data storage device was encrypted, so we're still working on that.

SHEPPARD: Yeah, I didn't think it would be easy.

GRODIN: But we were able to ascertain the existence of twenty-one Wraith hive ships just in our quadrant of the Pegasus galaxy alone.

SHEPPARD: Twenty-one?!

GRODIN: And there are indications of far more elsewhere in Pegasus.

SHEPPARD: How many more?

GRODIN: Well, there's no way of knowing for sure. Perhaps sixty, or more.

SHEPPARD: That's a lot of ships.

GRODIN: Some of them already appear to be on the move.

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 06:22 AM
Here is an excerpt from the transcript for "Underground." 60 is the best guess of the Genii for he number for active hiveships and doesn't seem include other facilities, like the cloning facility used in "SOW," or they would have paid that location a visit.

Off course 60 is not an exact number however there is nothing in the series indicating that there are much more. That being said even if it was five million hives the fact would remain that the female to male ratio would make human type reproduction both impractical and improbable. Most living things have a type of reproduction which git their needs, there are a few exceptions like pandas who have a reproduction so impractical it is amazing they have survived this long, however for the most part, evolution make it so that a race's method of having babies fit the race's needs.

Now the only way that Wraith could possibly be having children the same way humans do are if the Ancients indeed genetically engineered them and put in a bottle neck to control reproduction, however barring something like that it is just not logical for a race where less than one in two thousand individuals are females for a female to use the better part of a year to produce one child.

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 06:25 AM
Now the only way that Wraith could possibly be having children the same way humans do are if the Ancients indeed genetically engineered them and put in a bottle neck to control reproduction, however barring something like that it is just not logical for a race where less than one in two thousand individuals are females for a female to use the better part of a year to produce one child.

That is what I am guessing. The Ancients meddled in everything else, and, as was said in WDC, the lack of files on the Wraith in the Ancient databases is suspicious.

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 06:35 AM
I still think it is more likely that it is ant like reproduction going on, but I am not completely rejecting the idea of Ancients having meddled with Wraith and tried to put in a bottle neck in reproduction for safety which then failed.

Isolde
March 14th, 2011, 06:42 AM
Off course there is. But since what one have seen on screen is the only thing one have to go on anything else would be pure guesswork, entertaining guesswork, but still guesswork.

Hmm, by this logic we should never entertain anything other than what we have seen on the screen, so speculation is out of the proverbial window. So, in that respect, I don't think you should bother with the books, as most of this is developed in a way that you will find disagreeable.


Interesting questions. I would assume that they take quite a bit of supplies from the worlds they cull, and their ships is certainly big enough to contain nurseries and fabrication facilities. However anything about this again would be speculation ...

I am not sure what IVF is but I assume it stands for some sort of artificial gestation. However that is not what am suggesting. There is allot of creatures who do not birth live young. Fish do not grow their young in tanks, the female sprout out a huge number of eggs, which the male then fertilize. (there are variations but this is the most common.) Spiders do not grow their young in tanks, they lay huge amounts of eggs which is then placed in sack like constructions until they hatch. Ants do not grow their young in vats, the queens are fertilized once and then over her lifespan say every now and then plop out an egg which eventually hatch. Birds do not grow their young in vats they lay eggs.

I do not know where you got the idea that I think the Wraith grow their young in test tubes, off course they do not. However I do not think they do the hubba hubba, go pregnant for nine months and then birth a baby. If I am to guess I would say it is more likely that it works like with ants or spiders, with the Queen somehow being fertilized and then producing unfinished offspring in some sort of pod which then matures and hatches as that is a much more effective way to produce many offspring than a nine month pregnancy which results in one child.

IVF = In Vitro Fetilisation = test tube babies, and no, I didn't think that. As for the remainder of your points, I am well aware of other methods of reproduction within different species, and so are the other members of the WDC. I think you'll find that as a whole we're a pretty intelligent bunch of people with a great deal of accumulated knowledge, so you're not telling us anything new.

However, I would say that you are being either disingenuous if you suggest I suppose ants, spiders and the like place their eggs in 'tanks', or believe that I'm just stupid? Of course not, because they do not have the tech or intellect, but they might if they did. Ah, but again I'm speculating so that is impossible. :P


I am not saying that there is no sort of sex involved, but I doubt that it is the same as with humans. Let us take common black ants as an example. A few individuals, males and females do not become workers, soldiers and so on, instead they grow wings. These winged ants will fly out of the anthill and mate, allot. After this the male wing ants die and the females are fertilized for life and they, unless killed kill become the queen of a new hill, just as an example here, another example, the Chile Rose tarantula, the female will live for 16 to 40 years, but they do not die of old age, at some point the female get an itch she can not scratch and she stops eating and at the same time she send out pheromones to attract a male. The male will fertilize her. The weakened female will then build a nest and lay her eggs, then she will starve herself to death so that when her myriad of young hatches they can get their first meal from her body. Great white sharks appears to be giving birth to live young, but instead the female lay eggs, but the eggs are internal, the male then fertilizes those eggs, then they hatch still inside the mother. A myriad of tiny, baby sharks live inside their mother, fighting one another, killing and eating their siblings until only the one or two strongest remain who are then born.

Yeah, I know. :rolleyes: And so do the rest of the WDC, as this is a subject discussed ad nauseam. You're forgetting we've been talking about this stuff a lot longer than you, hon. :)


There are so many ways nature produces young, and each species have a way to do it which best suits the needs of that race. Why would not Wraith be the same way. Off course the Queen is in some way fertilized, however for a race with so few females it makes allot more sense for her to produce young in a way that A do not weaken her as much as normal human pregnancy do and B produces many babies at once.

Fertilisation by numerous partners is best in this regard as it would ensure a greater genetic variation within the species.Too much inbreeding is not a good thing. However, I am at a loss as to why pregnancy would weaken a female Wraith? Teyla wasn't weakened and neither are most human woman, though of course there are exceptions to any rule. Pregnancy is a natural thing, and if it carried so many risks as to leave a mother vulnerable, I believe it would not be the way we reproduce now, as evolution would have put a stop to that.

The other thing about Wraith is that as an apex predator, it behoves them to keep their numbers small, as their food source i.e. us is vulnerable, and takes a looooong time to mature. The only reason there are so many about in Pegasus is because Team Shep wandered in and essentially threw a hand grenade that upset the whole balance. In that respect, rapid reproduction is counterindicative.

Starsaber
March 14th, 2011, 07:16 AM
For the whole Wraith Pregnancy thing, maybe they only use human style reproduction to create queens, a different technique for wraith commanders ("named" Wraith), and cloning for drones.

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 07:28 AM
Hmm, by this logic we should never entertain anything other than what we have seen on the screen, so speculation is out of the proverbial window. So, in that respect, I don't think you should bother with the books, as most of this is developed in a way that you will find disagreeable.

If you read my posts you will see that I do several times say jay speculation. What I am saying is that we do not know as a fact other things than what is shown on the series and that all else is well, speculation. Also I do like most of the Stargate books I have read, having one or two issued here and there do not mean I do not like the books. However why do you seam so upset over this, have I insulted you in any way but not agreeing with your speculations, for that have not been my intention.


Yeah, I know. And so do the rest of the WDC, as this is a subject discussed ad nauseam. You're forgetting we've been talking about this stuff a lot longer than you, hon.


Well since it is obviously not possible to have a discussion without either having to agree on every point or the other person getting upset then obviously this is not the place for new members to have a debate either. I am sorry, however I really do not understand your reaction, we are speculating the reproductive process of a fictional race of vampires in a fictional universe, I do not really see why you are offended that I do not agree with you on this topic, is it really so important to you that any dissonance or disagreement from another equals an insult in your eyes?


Fertilisation by numerous partners is best in this regard as it would ensure a greater genetic variation within the species.Too much inbreeding is not a good thing. However, I am at a loss as to why pregnancy would weaken a female Wraith? Teyla wasn't weakened and neither are most human woman, though of course there are exceptions to any rule.

Most doctors would disagree with you, a woman who is pregnant usually suffers fatigue, is more in danger of illness, and the last few months of pregnancy she is reduced. Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.


Pregnancy is a natural thing, and if it carried so many risks as to leave a mother vulnerable, I believe it would not be the way we reproduce now, as evolution would have put a stop to that.

Pregnancy is a leading cause of death among women in many parts of the world, and it was in the West as well before we had hospitals and advanced medical science who can prevent many of the complications. Why do you think pregnant women are generally followed very closely by her doctors when she is pregnant? A rather large percentage of all pregnancies lead to complications. Now the last few months of a pregnancy a rather huge amount of woman can not work, you have hormones in unbalance I could go on and on on medical problems with pregnancy. Most women are tired for a long time after having given birth, and it is seen in societies where women still have many children that mothers who have gone through many pragmatics have more health problems and die younger than those with few children. Pregnancy is natural yes, however something being natural do not mean it is good for you.


The other thing about Wraith is that as an apex predator, it behoves them to keep their numbers small, as their food source i.e. us is vulnerable, and takes a looooong time to mature. The only reason there are so many about in Pegasus is because Team Shep wandered in and essentially threw a hand grenade that upset the whole balance. In that respect, rapid reproduction is counterindicative.

Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 07:41 AM
For the whole Wraith Pregnancy thing, maybe they only use human style reproduction to create queens, a different technique for wraith commanders ("named" Wraith), and cloning for drones.

The author's blog leans toward live birth for faced officers and Queens, each being individuals. So far, what we have seen in "Homecoming" is that Snow honored Guide with a son, then a daughter (p34).

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 07:51 AM
Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.

The loss of faced officers could be minimized by how they usually send one at a time and let the team of masked warriors do the heavy battle work.

As for other Wraith reproduction methods, the Wraith hive in "Nightfall" did have the means for growing Wraith children in pods, including Queens (p. 222).

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 07:52 AM
The author's blog leans toward live birth for faced officers and Queens, each being individuals. So far, what we have seen in "Homecoming" is that Snow honored Guide with a son, then a daughter (p34).

Yes I know, that is why I mentioned it as this seams strange to me from how it seams in the series and the number of Queens. It is in no way a deal breaker as it is a great book so far, it is just a tiny little thing that bothered me.


The loss of faced officers could be minimized by how they usually send one at a time and let the team of masked warriors do the heavy battle work.

Yes that is true. However if Wraith was birthed like humans that would make every faced officer extremely valuable.


As for other Wraith reproduction methods, the Wraith hive in "Nightfall" did have the means for growing Wraith children in pods, including Queens (p. 222).

I had completely forgotten this part of the comic, but yes you are right about that, and that could reduce the pressure off Queens birthing children I agree with that.

Isolde
March 14th, 2011, 08:05 AM
If you read my posts you will see that I do several times say jay speculation. What I am saying is that we do not know as a fact other things than what is shown on the series and that all else is well, speculation. Also I do like most of the Stargate books I have read, having one or two issued here and there do not mean I do not like the books. However why do you seam so upset over this, have I insulted you in any way but not agreeing with your speculations, for that have not been my intention.

Well since it is obviously not possible to have a discussion without either having to agree on every point or the other person getting upset then obviously this is not the place for new members to have a debate either. I am sorry, however I really do not understand your reaction, we are speculating the reproductive process of a fictional race of vampires in a fictional universe, I do not really see why you are offended that I do not agree with you on this topic, is it really so important to you that any dissonance or disagreement from another equals an insult in your eyes?

Most doctors would disagree with you, a woman who is pregnant usually suffers fatigue, is more in danger of illness, and the last few months of pregnancy she is reduced. Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.

Yes their numbers have to be kept low that is true. However think of it this way, if a hive lost three members during a culling the Queen would be weakened with pregnancy for over two years to replace them. With so few females their numbers would go constantly down, not up.

Causes of Maternal Mortality (http://www.maternityworldwide.org/pages/causes-of-maternal-mortality.html)

I was one of those women, having had one pregnancy that ended in stillbirth and another in a neonatal death, from which I nearly died, due to a massive haemorrhage. I have first hand knowledge of what constitutes a viable pregnancy or not, and yes, this is a sticky subject for me.

I don't mind that you disagree, but we're beginning to feel patronised, because you continually explain everything, and that's not necessary. We get it, your reasoning, we ain't daft.

*shugs* Still, Wraith need to keep their numbers low, as outbreeding your prey is the short way to extinction. And as specialised feeders their number is up unless they address it.

With regard to your assertion about pregnancy, I have searched for scholarly articles to support the claim and can't find any. Perhaps you could provide a link? :)

CedrusTuri
March 14th, 2011, 08:40 AM
Wasn't going to comment, but all things considered, if I'm getting this worked up about things that I'm reading, then maybe I should just get it off my chest after all.

A few points then:

Firstly, I freely confess that I haven't read the books yet, for a number of reasons. I resisted for a long time because I was wiggy about 'dodgy book canon.' I'd seen it happen with Pocketbooks' continunation of Star Trek: Enterprise and I was afraid it was going to happen to Stargate Atlantis. However, I do follow the blogs of both authors, and have read their considered and informative comments to their readers. I have a great deal of respect for them - except maybe when I'm already pi$$y because of my computer transforming into an iratus doorstop. Secondly, a reason I haven't read yet, is because I'm still busy writing, and try to avoid reading works that cover the same or similar ground, so as to avoid unintentional influences from said works. That said: a) What I've found as a universal given is that authors writing any body of works concerning the Wraith seems to travel frighteningly similar roads of reasoning and plot development, and I'm sorry, whichever side of the bed you're lying on regarding the Wraith, the books, and all the things being so hotly debated here, that's got to speak volumes, and b) to return to the concern about the naming of Wraith, even if it were simply a matter of making it more convenient to the writer, (which I don't believe for a second is the motivation for their naming), then unless and until YOU have tried to write a scene involving the Wraith, Haguzussa, and managed to make it coherent and unencumbered, please don't use that as some kind of veiled put down. It's incredibly difficult. I, personally, don't hold with naming them 'among themselves' in single word 'labels' and tend to go with the 'telepathic image' idea in my own writing, but I fully respect where others are coming from with regard to the 'naming of Wraith' (Hmmm, T.S. Elliot, eat your heart out).

Next, I'd like to turn my attention, hopefully briefly, to the troubled topic of Wraith reproduction and make the following points.

I don't think anyone is objecting to the debate, per se, Hagazussa, merely your 'I'm right and you're all wrong' condescending attitude, and like it or not, that is what comes across in your postings, sorry. You misquote, or intentionally omit parts of a quote that do not hold with your opinion when you're answering others, and then seem to get annoyed when they call you on it. You gotta roll with it, kiddo. When you do that to people, of course they're going to get upset. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

For my two penneth, and only briefly so as not to entangle those following my VS up in spoiler country. Wraith are far too sensual creatures /not/ to engage in physical pleasures, and what other ways would have have discovered them in the first place than from the biological imperative. My own opinion follows that certain subsets among the Wraith are cloned, certain are mass gestated, rather like the ant idea you are promoting, and others, Commanders and Queens are fully gestated to preserve individuality and genetic diversity. I believe that at such times, Queens withdraw and are heavily protected and, weakened or otherwise, gestate and birth the live young. It wouldn't be something that would be seen or experience, even by some of the more senior Wraith Commanders/Scientist, but it remains. Without boring people too much with where this thinking came from I'll simply say briefly that there was a) some speculation a while by on Malozzi's blog as to an episode that might have made the cut in season 6 had SGA not been cancelled that would have explored the concept of Wraith young and it's accociated intricacies. b) What we already know from various sources in the show about the Wraith, and c) a throwaway comment by Michael in Search and Rescue, So while the thoughts are only my opinion, they do have /some/ basis in the show's mythology/canon.

Anyway, I think I spent more than two pennies, so... posting this now, and going to do... other things. Might read something!

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2011, 11:06 AM
I am currently reading Stargate Atlantis Homecoming and for the most part I love the book, I highly recommend it. There is one thing I do not like however, the Wraith are named. Now for names we have for example Bonewhite, Iron, seriously I know they are green but they are not orcs and that is what they sound like. When I hear names such as Bonewhite I begin to think, I am Bonewhite bone crusher, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggg, your bones will be given to our shaman as tribute...hum...oh I was not reading Warhammer my bad.

My main problem with the Wraith being named is that it is a major mystery in the series why the Wraith never give their names, to just name them cheapen that. Now there are a few scenes in the series where the Wraith speak amongst themselves with no humans present and they do not use names then either, they refer to one another by position in the Hive, something which is rather natural. Many societies have not used names the way we do, your name where your profession, that is why we have names like Baker or Smith today. In Japan this was even more prevalent. There is an old Japanese novel, in fact it is one of the first examples of a book being written just for entertainment, and is often called the world's first novel. This book is called The Tale of Genji and it is extremely hard to follow the story as hardly anyone is named. At the time in Japan personal names where considered so private that to even name a fictional character was not done. Everyone is referred to by position. Governor, Lady's Maid and so on, the problem is that as time go on in the fictional world people's positions in society chance, and then their description do as well and as there is no names to go by it get problematic to keep up. However back on track with my post here, it would make sense if the Wraith had something similar, they have a hive based society, the hive is everything, it would make sense that they might not even have personal names but they are Hall Guard, Commander, Dart Pilot and so on.

Another possibility I have considered is that their names might be telepathic. A good example of telepathic names would be in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time where wolves are nearly as intelligent as humans are, they can walk people's dreams and they are telepathic. One of the main characters have the rare ability that he can speak with wolves and in the beginning grasping their names is hard, as a wolf's name might be a stretch of riverbank with paw prints in the snow a sunrise playing on the water and the sound of a fish breaking the surface. How do you translate that into words a non telepathic creature can understand?

I am just guessing here, however what we know is that no Wraith have ever given their name, not one and there have to be a better reason than their names sounding stupid, also none of the named Wraith have minded their new names. Someone who look at names the way people do will usually be rather testy if someone try to rename them. A nickname among friends is one thing, however take various societies who have had slaves, for example America, there exist interviews with slaves and former slaves and one of the things which was mentioned as a debasement, right alongside rape and physical violence is often having their names changed. Names is important to people, allot of our identity rest on our names. However the Wraith in Stargate do not even flinch when they are given names by Sheppard, they just shrug in a oh well if you need to put such a handle on me way.

Bottom line it seams unlikely to me that the Wraith have names the same way humans do, there have to be a reason why they are so unwilling to give their names, perhaps they can't, perhaps they do not have names as we would see it, or their names are telepathic and impossible to translate into a short, physical sound. Naming the Wraith Guide, Bonewhite and Snow is just disappointing, it just takes that great mystery and throw it out the window for convenience as it is easier to write a character who have a conventional name, and that is disappointing.

Another thing which is disappointing is that Todd remembering back appears to have had two children with his first Queen. What? First he have a name and now he do the hubba hubba which a Queen? It is not described exactly how Wraith produce young in Stargate Atlantis but it is said that it is not done as humans do it, and it would be impossible to do it the way humans do it, there are thousands of males per one female, the female can not just get pregnant and give birth that is to slow, the race would plain die out with so few females. It is said that the Queen provide the genetic material for new Wraith, probably it works like with many insects, the Queen are fertilized once and then the males are not needed anymore other than to protect her and attend upon her. Wraith Queens do not, and I repeat do not do the hubba bubba with their Commanders and then birth them daughters and name them Snow! I feel that the authors of this book tried to much to humanize the Wraith, however that do not work, they are alien, and they should then be alien, their names and reproduction should be alien, do make them seam more human is to cheapen them.

Wow, some of this sounds pretty terrible.

Cute little Wraith children with cute little names, Todd's dead wife, Wraith having sex and romance like people and getting drama pregnant.

I generally avoid novelizations/comics of the shows I watch for fear of running into things like this. I haven't even read the Farscape comics yet and those are written by the creators and generally praised by the community from what I can see.

As far as the naming thing I can see where the need to name them in a written work might arise from. I do think it would be possible to do it without naming them so long as you were selective about how many characters you created though. It might also be possible to name only the queens/families and then refer to all the others in that way. Anyway though, that's not the part that would bug me the most as a reader.

The unfounded assumptions about Wraith reproduction all coincidently pushing them in the obvious direction of being more human like and romantically relatable to humans is what would bother me.

Simply cut and pasting human sexuality and emotion onto an alien species is pretty much the laziest and most boring way to do such a thing, and doing it with a hive species like the Wraith is hardly going to score you any points for believability.

I'd be willing to buy the idea of some sort of sexual experimentation akin to the food experimentation born from their recessive human traits, likely viewed as deviant or abnormal by their larger societal norms, but full blown, "mommy, daddy, 2 children and a Labrador stuff" not buying it.

The Wraith cloning machine made guys in tubes and required a queen to do it. Todd also mentions in some of his dialog that queens "create warriors" which strongly implies something akin to the cloning machine only on a smaller scale.

The reason for this is simple. Look at how the cloning machine interfaces with the queen. Look at how drawn out and complicated it is. If it were true test tube style cloning like we understand it the queen's continued and prolonged presence throughout the whole process would not be required. A queen would not be required at all, only genetic material from one and possibly not even that. Once that's provided to the machine even Mckay or Zelenka could create a Wraith army for himself, despite being aliens. That's not how it works though. You need a queen, she needs to stay connected to the machine, and afterward she's sapped of strength and energy and needs to feed, despite the ZPM allegedly powering this thing.

The queen has to sit there and operate the machine for an extended period of time and only then does it produce a bunch of Wraith drones. Her lieutenant can't jump in and operate it himself, neither can Mckay or Zelenka, only she can.

That's their reproductive process right there folks. The cloning machine piggybacks on the natural way queens create more Wraith. The only difference is that the cloning machine vastly increases the number of offspring born from it.

It fits with what Todd says about queens creating warriors, it fits with what Sheppard and McKay said about it likely not being sexual, it answers the question of why the cloning machine needs a queen in the first place. It even explains why those queen thrones are for in all the hiveships.

The only thing it doesn't fit with is a need to humanize the Wraith into a potential object of romance.

There is material in the show a writer can use to construct some sort of reasonably supportable theory about how the Wraith might make more Wraith. None of it really points in the direction this book seemingly took off in however. About the only thing that I can think of that even could is that Ellia started out as a child. That's so easy to work into the cloning machine/batch production type theory it hardly merits tossing out and ignoring all the other information in favor of making them virtually indistinguishable from humans though.

Hagazussa
March 14th, 2011, 11:06 AM
I don't mind that you disagree, but we're beginning to feel patronised, because you continually explain everything, and that's not necessary. We get it, your reasoning, we ain't daft.

It is not meant as patronizing, it is meant as a way to debate, a way to prove a point. For example let us say that someone says there can be dangerous waves in any body of water, and I then hold up a water glass and say, really? That is not patronizing it is arguing one's point in a debate using extremely exaggerated examples. In Norway we call this putting it on the point, I do not know if it has a English name but it is a common debate technique and not one meant as an insult.

In addition I have Aspergers syndrome, so I do not always know how much context I have to include to make my point understood, that is not an attempt to look down at someone but rather that I can not easily read unspoken social rules nor how much information I need to give to make myself understood.


*shugs* Still, Wraith need to keep their numbers low, as outbreeding your prey is the short way to extinction. And as specialised feeders their number is up unless they address it.

I agree Wraith have a problem with being so specialized. One of my friends like to call them panda vampires, however I still think there will be to few new Wraith by conventional pregnancy, I am not saying that you are necessarily wrong, however I am saying that for me that do not seam to be very likely.


With regard to your assertion about pregnancy, I have searched for scholarly articles to support the claim and can't find any. Perhaps you could provide a link?

I could go into a debate on this however since I said I have Aspergers syndrome making me not always very skilled at knowing when I step in the salad I do not feel comfortable with it after you have told me about the problems with your pregnancy as I do not want to accidentally say something that hurt you as that have never been my intention.


b) to return to the concern about the naming of Wraith, even if it were simply a matter of making it more convenient to the writer, (which I don't believe for a second is the motivation for their naming), then unless and until YOU have tried to write a scene involving the Wraith, Haguzussa, and managed to make it coherent and unencumbered, please don't use that as some kind of veiled put down. It's incredibly difficult.

First off all reading the link further up the thread then yes it was sort of the author's intention to name them to make it easier to write them, though I grant her that she have done allot of work in thinking out how their names would work. Secondly yes I have tried to write Wraiths, I do not publish anything I am just a hobby writer, however I do write both fanfiction and RPG adventures and I know it is difficult to work in unnamed characters. However that do not change the fact that I think it is a bit strange way to do it.

Or to say it differently, I live with a computer programmer, I know that making a PS3 game is difficult, that do not however excuse bad graphics or wonky camera making it hard to see the character or any other flaw, nor do it make a customer with no programming skills disqualification from pointing out such flaws.

Also a book is never, ever perfect, and speaking about a flaw, or even a element one personally do not like is not a put down of the book. However I can respect an author allot, and still speak about something I see as a flaw in their works. I respect Dog Kreig my favorite author like you would not believe, that do not mean that I can not say that I find the new chapter on the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram in the third edition of his book confusing and strangely edited. I respect Blizzard allot and Diablo 2 is my favorite computer game, however that do not mean I can not say that the ally AI in their game sucks in confined spaces, even if I could not hope to make a game as good as theirs. Respecting something do not mean one have to hold it as perfect.


I don't think anyone is objecting to the debate, per se, Hagazussa, merely your 'I'm right and you're all wrong' condescending attitude, and like it or not, that is what comes across in your postings, sorry.

I have repeatedly said that it is my opinion, how I see it, so I do not understand how you could read what you do out of my posts.


You misquote, or intentionally omit parts of a quote that do not hold with your opinion when you're answering others, and then seem to get annoyed when they call you on it. You gotta roll with it, kiddo. When you do that to people, of course they're going to get upset. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

I have not done this. However obviously this is a forum where you have to agree or you get picked on. I am sorry if I have upset you, I will take my leave.

Thank you all for the debate.

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2011, 11:36 AM
It is not meant as patronizing, it is meant as a way to debate, a way to prove a point. For example let us say that someone says there can be dangerous waves in any body of water, and I then hold up a water glass and say, really? That is not patronizing it is arguing one's point in a debate using extremely exaggerated examples. In Norway we call this putting it on the point, I do not know if it has a English name but it is a common debate technique and not one meant as an insult.

I think you might be talking about Reductio ad absurdum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). It's a favorite of mine to. You can have some pretty wacky fun with the stuff some people say.:D

Isolde
March 14th, 2011, 11:47 AM
I have no problem playing Devil's Advocate, as it is a fave of mine too. Lob a bomb, see people scurry... :D Yes, very satisfying, but I don't think that's what was going on here. I do wish Aspergers had been mentioned earlier, as I would have been better able to ignore behaviours which are seen as irritating. *sigh* :(

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 11:54 AM
The Wraith cloning machine made guys in tubes and required a queen to do it. Todd also mentions in some of his dialog that queens "create warriors" which strongly implies something akin to the cloning machine only on a smaller scale.


Cloned batches is what was seen for masked warriors. Like you said, though, Ellia was seen as a child. It seems reasonable that the faced officers would be produced the same was as the Queens and is the direction the Legacy books have gone. Regardless, having two different castes of males is very unlike humans.


It is not meant as patronizing, it is meant as a way to debate, a way to prove a point. For example let us say that someone says there can be dangerous waves in any body of water, and I then hold up a water glass and say, really? That is not patronizing it is arguing one's point in a debate using extremely exaggerated examples. In Norway we call this putting it on the point, I do not know if it has a English name but it is a common debate technique and not one meant as an insult.


Different cultures do have different ways of debating; in some, repeating information is considered highly complimentary to the original writer. I live in the northeastern US and didn't take any offense to your writing style. My advice for this forum is that posts are better received when there are links to the transcripts to back up facts or show where speculations are coming from. Many times, I have started to look for such links and discovered I was missing information or wrong. We have all been wrong here and there, and I would personally rather be corrected than to misremember things about the Wraith.

It is helpful to know that you are from Norway, that you probably speak more than 1 language, and that you have Aspergers. As a fellow Wraith fan, I hope that you will stay and have fun on the forums and find them useful to share information.

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2011, 12:13 PM
Cloned batches is what was seen for masked warriors. Like you said, though, Ellia was seen as a child. It seems reasonable that the faced officers would be produced the same was as the Queens and is the direction the Legacy books have gone. Regardless, having two different castes of males is very unlike humans.

I'd agree that it's possible that queens and males are created the same way. It's likely that the faced males and queens are a product of the normal reproductive batch process, the one that takes place on hives, while the no faced ones are the result of the accelerated maturity process used by the cloning machine.

The Wraith, especially in wartime, probably wouldn't care if their clone armies looked like awful abominable mockeries of their normal species, so long as they hatched at full maturity and were ready to fight immediately it was a more than worthwhile trade.

It fits with how they're treated and depicted to. They apparently have no free will or real intelligence of their own and rely on instructions from queens or normal males to do anything.

What I'm getting at is that it's entirely likely, given the massive numbers of them that must have been created, that all the current noface guys are just left overs from the original cloning runs in the ancient war. There's probably even more of them still in cold storage.

I just don't get how anyone can look at what we've seen in the show and arrive at "Todd had 2 kids with his former queen" unless you're starting with "wraith reproduce like humans" as an assumption/desired outcome and then trying to work backwards to justify that somehow.

Nothing really points to it at all. We've never seen anything even approaching romantic affection between Queens and Males. The males seem utterly terrified of the mere mention of the Queen in the Queen episode. Something more befitting a sometimes cruel and mysterious mother figure that "made you" than a potential romantic interest.

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 12:38 PM
I just don't get how anyone can look at what we've seen in the show and arrive at "Todd had 2 kids with his former queen" unless you're starting with "wraith reproduce like humans" as an assumption/desired outcome and then trying to work backwards to justify that somehow.

The books do not portray the Wraith as being like typical suburban families. Males must compete for the Queens's attention and she chooses her favorites. More about that is explained here:

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html



The males seem utterly terrified of the mere mention of the Queen in the Queen episode. Something more befitting a sometimes cruel and mysterious mother figure that "made you" than a potential romantic interest.

The Queen in "SOW," yes, she was quite nasty to her Commander, but not all of the Queens treated all of their officers cruelly. The way the scientist from "Allies" looks at his Queen suggests a relaxed admiration:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=291&pos=323

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2011, 01:36 PM
The books do not portray the Wraith as being like typical suburban families. Males must compete for the Queens's attention and she chooses her favorites. More about that is explained here:

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/99875.html

So it's ancient royal courts instead of human suburban families then, only with probably even more incest.

It was like I said then. She starts from the assumption that Wraith must reproduce like humans do, which isn't even suggested in the show and actually denied by McKay, then works back from that, trying to make their society fit around it.


The Queen in "SOW," yes, she was quite nasty to her Commander, but not all of the Queens treated all of their officers cruelly. The way the scientist from "Allies" looks at his Queen suggests a relaxed admiration:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=291&pos=323

Nothing you wouldn't see between two male Wraith either, or two of any other thinking beings on the same side. It's this supposed romantic stuff that's entirely absent. That post you linked me to takes them allegedly competing for favor in "the queen" as evidence that there must be this elaborate harem system for Wraith males.

She's their boss, of course they all want to impress her. If they don't she'll probably order them to be part of the Dart squadron that uses their fighters to intercept drones the hard way. Todd even says that Wraith males are psychologically predisposed toward wanting to be led by a queen.

If you need to make a human familial analog you could just as easily compare it to siblings competing for the favor of a parent, likely a strict and uncompromising one. Since the queen is mother to them all that is entirely a dynamic to be expected to.

It's a shame this has gone down the way it did since Wraith reproduction could have actually been a fascinating character/society study were it given more thought toward being actually alien, simply because the Wraith do have a human psyche and so much of human society is somehow based around our manner of reproduction. Everything from the basic family unit, to ancient inheritance of lofty titles, to tax laws, to the notion that through our children a part of ourselves survives into the future.

How would a human psyche develop and behave in a society where paired relationships simply don't exist? Where 99.99% of the people knew they could never have children. I don't know but I know I'd rather read about that than harems full of Wraith dudes lining up for someone who might just be their mom.:p

WraithTech
March 14th, 2011, 03:13 PM
So it's ancient royal courts instead of human suburban families then, only with probably even more incest.

If you need to make a human familial analog you could just as easily compare it to siblings competing for the favor of a parent, likely a strict and uncompromising one. Since the queen is mother to them all that is entirely a dynamic to be expected to.

How would a human psyche develop and behave in a society where paired relationships simply don't exist? Where 99.99% of the people knew they could never have children. I don't know but I know I'd rather read about that than harems full of Wraith dudes lining up for someone who might just be their mom.:p

Faced officers change hives from their birth hives to increase genetic diversity and are are proud of their lineage, tracking it meticulously to avoid inbreeding. This is explained in the author's blog, has appeared in The Lost, and will appear again in future books.

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/110350.html


It was like I said then. She starts from the assumption that Wraith must reproduce like humans do, which isn't even suggested in the show and actually denied by McKay, then works back from that, trying to make their society fit around it.

Again, McKay's assumption was based off what he saw for the masked warrior caste in "SOW," which did not hold true for Ellia. By the same token of the process you allude to (of how Nietzsche thinks religions are formed), one could accuse McKay of wanting to make Wraith society fit different processes to avoid thinking humans and Wraith are similar, something easy to fall into when dealing with enemies.


It's a shame this has gone down the way it did since Wraith reproduction could have actually been a fascinating character/society study were it given more thought toward being actually alien, simply because the Wraith do have a human psyche and so much of human society is somehow based around our manner of reproduction.

Well, that is an opinion; I can only agree to disagree. I don't care if faced officers are birthed in pods or in wombs, and the dual caste system for males is different than humans. Still, something doesn't have to be different to be fascinating.

By your first statement you posted in this thread, it appears you haven't read the books. Rest assured, the authors did take the time to think all this through and MGM has approved of every line of text.

The Flyattractor
March 14th, 2011, 04:59 PM
Have always disapproved when Alien Bad Guys are too "humanized"
Especialy with bad guys that have been around a long time.

aka Daleks for a prime example.

And with the Wraith. I would have rather enjoyed seeing more of their "buggy" side explored.

seldear
March 14th, 2011, 05:57 PM
Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.

Ouroboros
March 14th, 2011, 06:42 PM
Faced officers change hives from their birth hives to increase genetic diversity and are are proud of their lineage, tracking it meticulously to avoid inbreeding. This is explained in the author's blog, has appeared in The Lost, and will appear again in future books.

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/110350.html

So again, working back from that same initial forced assumption.


Again, McKay's assumption was based off what he saw for the masked warrior caste in "SOW," which did not hold true for Ellia. By the same token of the process you allude to (of how Nietzsche thinks religions are formed), one could accuse McKay of wanting to make Wraith society fit different processes to avoid thinking humans and Wraith are similar, something easy to fall into when dealing with enemies.

It's the only solid evidence that was offered really, spoken from the mouth of a man who's had opportunity to study Wraith databases along with his staff. As such I'd be choosing that as a starting point if I actually intended to expand on the Wraith as depicted in the show. This feels more like remaking them into something else based on the personal whims and desires of the author, something that often occurs with side projects like this, which is one of the reasons I tend to avoid them as noted.

Just reading the passage you linked to for example, I don't get any sense at all that these are the same characters we saw on the show.

It could very well make for a fascinating story in the end, but it won't really feel like a story about SGA's Wraith, but rather one about some new creation loosely based on them.


Well, that is an opinion; I can only agree to disagree. I don't care if faced officers are birthed in pods or in wombs, and the dual caste system for males is different than humans. Still, something doesn't have to be different to be fascinating.

I won't begrudge anyone their opinion certainly, I only post to articulate my own. Which is one of disappointment. There will likely never be an Atlantis movie so I had entertained some thought of reading some of these books that dealt with a potential ending. It was a brief thought unlikely to have given rise to actual action granted, but at the same time I can't help but sigh to see my long held aversion to these supplementary materials once again reinforced.


By your first statement you posted in this thread, it appears you haven't read the books. Rest assured, the authors did take the time to think all this through and MGM has approved of every line of text.

I doubt very much MGM deigned to care overly much about the particulars of what story content went into novels written about a canceled series. They're a production studio, they don't concern themselves with such details beyond the point of ensuring somebody's not using their money to sing the praises of something that's going to embarrass or cost them money.

Were Atlantis ever to see an actual continuation of it's story, the content of these books would almost certainly be entirely ignored.

Isolde
March 15th, 2011, 02:36 AM
Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.

Hear, hear.

WraithTech
March 15th, 2011, 03:40 AM
So again, working back from that same initial forced assumption.

That is an assumption in and of itself, isn't it?


It's the only solid evidence that was offered really, spoken from the mouth of a man who's had opportunity to study Wraith databases along with his staff.

The one McKay thought he was going to get to study later in season 3's "No Man's Land" before the virus halted him?


ZELENKA: We got hacked. Within the hive ship's schematics was a worm-like computer virus.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/transcripts/301.shtml

We see McKay still speculating in Season 4's "SOW:


McKAY (quietly): It's a Queen!

SHEPPARD: Nice work, Sherlock, but what's she doin'?

McKAY: I have no idea.

later, when discussing only evidence of masked warriors in the pods...


SHEPPARD: Do you think this is some kind of Wraith farm?

McKAY: That's what it looks like. The Queen secretes genetic material which gets distributed through the structure into those pods. Presto – new-born Wraith.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/transcripts/412.shtml

So, as of mid season 4, McKay is still guessing.



I doubt very much MGM deigned to care overly much about the particulars of what story content went into novels written about a canceled series.

This shows that you not only haven't read the books, but also the contents of this thread. Two different authors addressed this misconception in posts 7 and 11 on the first page.

Leeta
March 15th, 2011, 05:18 AM
Yes. We all know that if an Atlantis movie came out it would take over the storyline. We already had someone troll and derail the topic by telling us their opinion on canon is correct and no one else. I think it's safe to say an Atlantis movie it won't happen. I'm of the opinion that Stargate is going to need a re-boot of some sorts to get it going again but that's a discussion for another thread. So, I am going to take these books as canon.

There are other races in other fandoms that don't reproduce 'human style' like The Borg for the example. As far as I know they assimiliate as a way to gain numbers for their population. If anyone wants something different in terms of reproduction they can go read about them. Anyway...

I'm not picking on anyone in this thread by the way. I'm just saying what I feel and this is my last say on the topic of books being canon or not.



Many of the points being discussed here are elucidated upon in later books in the Legacy series. The authors have reasons for choosing to portray Wraith nomenclature and society, etc. as they did, and these reasons are shown or explicated as the story continues.

Just to let people know that Wraith society wasn't developed without thought or reasoning - although it may not be to the individual fan's tastes and preferences.


*greens* :)

ciannwn
March 15th, 2011, 11:23 AM
Pregnancy do take an enormous toll of a woman's body and there is no reason to think it would not take a toll on a Wraith. In all mammalian spices pregnancy weakens the mother, ask any biologist.

I found this article -

Too Many Pregnancies: Health Risks of Large Number of Pregnancies to a Woman's Body (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5841032/too_many_pregnancies_health_risks_of.html?cat=5)

So yes, having a lot of pregnancies can be risky for human women. I can't see it being much of a problem for Wraith queens, though, because of Wraith regenerative powers - give birth, have a meal and body immediately regenerates into a pristine, pre-pregnancy/birth condition.

On thing that bothers me about Wraith being very like humans, though, is something we didn't see in Vegas. After studying pics of the shirtless Wraith, members of the WDC came to the conclusion that he didn't have nipples even though queens have bumps on their chests. Are Wraith mammals?

WraithTech
March 15th, 2011, 11:43 AM
On thing that bothers me about Wraith being very like humans, though, is something we didn't see in Vegas. After studying pics of the shirtless Wraith, members of the WDC came to the conclusion that he didn't have nipples even though queens have bumps on their chests. Are Wraith mammals?

Good question...
Here is a list of criteria from an online dictionary:
Mammal –noun - any vertebrate of the class Mammalia, having the body more or less covered with hair, nourishing the young with milk from the mammary glands, and, with the exception of the egg-laying monotremes, giving birth to live young.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mammal

vertebrate - check (Spike's spine; no exoskeleton)
hair - check
milk - maybe
live birth or some exceptions for eggs - check

So, the criteria left to to hone in on is if the Queens have functional mammary glands. Being a PG show, all we have to go by is the the males have damage-resistant dermal layers on their chests.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_ITtIYCKqljU/TJzqM3DEooI/AAAAAAAABjk/4L1CvvZksT4/s640/Wraith_Schematic.jpg

With such a divergence in caste of the masked warriors possessing more nostrils than the faced-officers, it is possible that the Queens could have the necessary mammary glands and that the males evolved a tougher, thicker skin layer over where theirs would have been.

ciannwn
March 15th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Good question...
Here is a list of criteria from an online dictionary:

I had an idea about Wraith chests in this WDC post -

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?37661-Wraith-Defenders-Club&p=12366960&viewfull=1#post12366960

I found an article explaining why human males have nipples and then invented a pseudo-scientific theory as to why Wraith males don't. And why not seeing as the Stargate universe runs on pseudo-science. :p

Ouroboros
March 15th, 2011, 12:29 PM
That is an assumption in and of itself, isn't it?

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying?

I'm saying that making the assumption that Wraith reproduce like humans is an assumption made with no support from the actual show.

On the contrary if you assume that they don't reproduce like humans, since it's been said they don't by McKay, but rather in some way more akin to how their cloning machine works. There is support for it in the show.

Sure you're not going to get anything explicit one way or the other but there's more support for the cloning/not sexual reproduction version than the other way around.

I've go over already a few reasons why I think this is so.


The one McKay thought he was going to get to study later in season 3's "No Man's Land" before the virus halted him?

Yeah, that's why I mentioned his staff. Zelenka and company were pouring over that thing for hours. McKay might not have got a direct personal look at it but I'm sure he was brought up to speed on whatever they learned before it erased itself. It's not like they're going to keep it a secret from him.

As far as the other quotes go I wasn't trying to suggest that McKay knows exactly how Wraith reproduce. He doesn't. All he knows is that he feels reasonably confident that he can rule out the human like sexual reproduction Sheppard suggests as an option.

Seems odd that that would then turn out to be true. He says "I'm not sure exactly what it is but it's not this" and then the answer turns out to be "this".


This shows that you not only haven't read the books, but also the contents of this thread. Two different authors addressed this misconception in posts 7 and 11 on the first page.

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thread before I first posted. I wasn't really planning to get into a long involved discussion. I get the impression reading those posts now that the edits are a lot like the ones that go on for Star Wars EU material where people check them over to make sure that they don't outright contradict anything already established in the canon. Like if the book made the mistake of saying McKay was an American that would need to be changed.

Nobody's going to say "I don't think the Wraith should have names or reproduce that way" though and demand a rewrite on that basis. They're ultimately trivial details with no objectively right or wrong answer and thus, I'd assume, would be left up to the author to decide.

I just don't personally care for what was decided is all, and think that there was a much more faithful foundation to begin to build from already present in the series, that may have ultimately even led to a potentially more interesting outcome.

Like we've both said before.

Opinions.

Isolde
March 15th, 2011, 12:33 PM
I had an idea about Wraith chests in this WDC post -

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?37661-Wraith-Defenders-Club&p=12366960&viewfull=1#post12366960

I found an article explaining why human males have nipples and then invented a pseudo-scientific theory as to why Wraith males don't. And why not seeing as the Stargate universe runs on pseudo-science. :p

I think that's a solid theory. All mammals develop nipples along two channels that run from the groin area to just under the armpit and this is bilateral, as you would expect. Also, interestingly, some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat... :D

ciannwn
March 15th, 2011, 12:45 PM
I think that's a solid theory.

Thank you.


Also, interestingly, some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat... :D

Hmmm. Iratus bugs must have fed on something before the Ancients seeded the home planet with humans. This suggests that Wraith evolved a highly specialised diet over time. Perhaps the Ancients also seeded the Iratus bug home world with horses, mice or one of those species of rat. So, new theory coming up. :p

Iratus bug queen feeds on a human and lays an egg before the human DNA filters out of her body. One of her descendants is another queen who feeds on a horse, mouse or one of those rats and lays an egg before lunch's DNA filters out of her body. The line continues down the ages and eventually evolves into the Wraith we know and love. The faced males don't have nipples because of the horse, mouse or rat DNA. :D

CedrusTuri
March 15th, 2011, 12:49 PM
some male mammals do not develop nipples e.g. horses, mice, some species of rat... :D

Ratties!!!

I can attest to this - my partner and I have several rats (well okay, 23 but let's not count, okay?), and some are male, and some are female. The 'boyz' as we call them, (Many of them named after Stargate characters), do not have nipples.

WraithTech
March 15th, 2011, 01:31 PM
On the contrary if you assume that they don't reproduce like humans, since it's been said they don't by McKay, but rather in some way more akin to how their cloning machine works. There is support for it in the show.

As I have cited with reference material above, this was supported for the masked warrior caste (aka drones) only. There was never any information on the faced male caste. If you know of a transcript that states how faced males are reproduced, please find it and cite it here. With no such transcript, the authors are free to go either way on the issue of faced male reproduction because of this lack of information.


McKay might not have got a direct personal look at it but I'm sure he was brought up to speed on whatever they learned before it erased itself.

As I have cited with reference material above, McKay had a full season to get up to speed and still didn't know. Speculating that the team did read about Wraith reproduction and shared it with McKay is not factual, documented information from the show. If you can find in a transcript that this occurred, please cite it here.


Nobody's going to say "I don't think the Wraith should have names or reproduce that way" though and demand a rewrite on that basis. They're ultimately trivial details with no objectively right or wrong answer and thus, I'd assume, would be left up to the author to decide.

This is not how two of the authors in posts 7 and 11 described the process. Jo told us, "There is not one comma in Homecoming that has not been specifically approved by MGM."

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?80043-Wraith-Names-In-Homecoming-(very-mild-spoilers.)&p=12409657&viewfull=1#post12409657

Again, if you can back up your statement with a contrary citation from MGM, please point to it.

ciannwn
March 15th, 2011, 01:52 PM
Just my own thoughts on what was and wasn't said in SGA. Everything was left very vague - McKay isn't sure about Wraith reproduction while Beckett was never really sure about how the feeding process works. I'm guessing TPTB didn't go into details so they weren't committed to anything in particular. This allowed them to add in whatever suited a future plot.

We saw the 'Spoils Of War' Queen secreting genetic material into pods and the end result was male masked warriors. There are two possibilities here -

1: Wraith have a haplodiploid sex-determination system.

2: A male Wraith was involved somewhere in the process of producing warriors - McKay didn't get the chance to learn how, though.

If there had been a 6th season TPTB could have decided on one or the other possibility if a plot required it.

Ouroboros
March 15th, 2011, 07:51 PM
As I have cited with reference material above, this was supported for the masked warrior caste (aka drones) only. There was never any information on the faced male caste. If you know of a transcript that states how faced males are reproduced, please find it and cite it here. With no such transcript, the authors are free to go either way on the issue of faced male reproduction because of this lack of information.

So why not build on what we already know about their reproduction? I already made a post showing how easy it would be to do just that.

Why throw out Mckay's quote completely when it's literally the best info available on the topic?


As I have cited with reference material above, McKay had a full season to get up to speed and still didn't know. Speculating that the team did read about Wraith reproduction and shared it with McKay is not factual, documented information from the show. If you can find in a transcript that this occurred, please cite it here.

So, not factually documented information from the show and thus not valid. You do remember what you're going through all this trouble defending right?

Making the leap that a head scientist would be kept informed by his subordinates as to their work is a much shorter and safer one than leaping to the assumption that the same head scientist must be wrong in the one and only concrete statement he made about Wraith reproduction because.... why exactly?


This is not how two of the authors in posts 7 and 11 described the process. Jo told us, "There is not one comma in Homecoming that has not been specifically approved by MGM."

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?80043-Wraith-Names-In-Homecoming-(very-mild-spoilers.)&p=12409657&viewfull=1#post12409657

Again, if you can back up your statement with a contrary citation from MGM, please point to it.

I don't see where the conflict is here. All I'm saying is that I don't think MGM is going to care enough to mess with an authors take on something like this. The fact it passed their screening process would seem to prove that accurate enough.

What are you after here exactly? An admission that it was actually MGM and not the author that decided that this is the way the Wraith reproduced all along, and thus it wasn't just something that was made up for these books?

Or do you just not like the fact that I don't like it and want to jump up and down on the "but MGM said it was ok so it's official like it or not" button like that's going to give me cause to consider it great somehow.

I'll let you in on a secret. MGM signed off on all the actual SGA episodes I didn't like to.

Didn't make me like them any more. And it certainly didn't stop me from criticizing them. I've been downright gentle in this thread compared to some of the things I said about certain episodes during the series run, mainly because I've not had occasion to actually read the books in question personally so it wouldn't be very fair to go hog wild trashing things based just on the OP's descriptions.

padr49904
March 15th, 2011, 10:25 PM
If people don't want to wait Barnes and Noble has them for download, really great if you have a nook or just want to read on a computer. And thanks to the person in the other thread that said you have to type in SGA or SG1 to find them.

And the first book is great so far, only part of the way in. Really like the O'Neill/Torren thing with him watching the baby.

Got in a couple more chapters to Woolsey's chat with the president, and why do they keep calling him Dick it is a nickname but they rarely use it. Are they trying to imply that the president he is talking to is Obama, there are some subtle hints to some of the crazy stuff online about Obama and the president in the book mentioned one of them, i.e. the antichrist thing.

WraithTech
March 16th, 2011, 04:34 AM
You do remember what you're going through all this trouble defending right?

Yes, I am defending the authors' rights to chose which directions they wanted to take in the books (for names, reproduction, knowledge transfer, and so forth), based on lack of concrete facts presented in the show, which I have cited.

That is the crux of the reason so many canon-aware people have a sudden interest in this thread, isn't it, to challenge what it canon for their Wikis? Sorry, but that is off-topic here.

Leeta
March 16th, 2011, 05:58 AM
I have an idea. Those coming in here telling us what is 'canon', when this thread is about the wraith names in the book, make YOUR own thread and express your views in there. I got some topic names you can use...


'We know what's canon. We're right and you're wrong.'
'People who read the books and/or comics are traitors.'
'Visit my 'canon' wiki because only I know what's correct.'
'I don't care what the author(s) says. I am right and all knowing on canon and how things work in the business.'

Take those ideas and leave us alone so we can discuss the wraith names in our 'silly, non-canon' books. :rolleyes:

Yes I know I said I wasn't going to say anything else about things regarding 'canon'.

ciannwn
March 16th, 2011, 08:08 AM
Examples of 'canon' from SGA where reproduction is concerned. From 'Spoils Of War' -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/transcripts/412.shtml


McKAY: ....The Queen secretes genetic material which gets distributed through the structure into those pods. Presto – new-born Wraith.

SHEPPARD: Nice(!)

McKAY: Yeah, I know. It sounds disgusting. But it actually makes sense. I mean, you've gotta remember – they're descended from insects, right?

Yes, that definitely explains it. Look in any beehive, ant nest or termite nest and you'll see a queen sitting in a chair and secreting genetic material into pods via cables.

From 'Vengeance'

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/transcripts/319.shtml


DEX: So, what? They’re tryin’ to create more Wraith?

SHEPPARD: That doesn’t make any more sense. If they wanted to create more Wraith, wouldn’t it be easier to get a male and female to, you know, get a room?

McKAY: It doesn’t work that way with the Wraith, alright? At least, we don’t think it does. We’re not entirely sure as to the Wraiths’ reproductive methods.


The way I see it, McKay's uncertainty left an opening for TPTB to say that a male and female Wraith get a room in order to (a) produce faced males or new queens or (b) just new queens if it suited a particular plot. After all, we've only seen warriors and Michael's super cockroaches hatching out of pods.

If it had been up to me to decide how Wraith reproduce I'd have made them a species with a haplodiploid sex-determination system. Queens would mate only for producing female offspring so the faced males are sexually dormant for most of their lives. Warriors are produced as adults by secreting genetic material into pods but faced males and females are produced as infants by laying eggs in pods. If Michael can get a fully grown super cockroach from an Iratus bug egg in a pod I'm sure Wraith could get a baby out of a Wraith egg in a pod. :p Wraith babies could be born at a stage more advanced than human babies too because the size of the head etc wouldn't be dictated by the mother's anatomy.

The above doesn't mean I'm right, of course. We have no idea what TPTB would have decided if they'd had another season or two for SGA on TV. They might even have sidestepped the issue altogether on the grounds that Wraith mating habits aren't suitable material for a family viewing show. :p

Isolde
March 16th, 2011, 08:36 AM
Examples of 'canon' from SGA where reproduction is concerned. From 'Spoils Of War' -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/transcripts/412.shtml



Yes, that definitely explains it. Look in any beehive, ant nest or termite nest and you'll see a queen sitting in a chair and secreting genetic material into pods via cables.

From 'Vengeance'

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/transcripts/319.shtml



The way I see it, McKay's uncertainty left an opening for TPTB to say that a male and female Wraith get a room in order to (a) produce faced males or new queens or (b) just new queens if it suited a particular plot. After all, we've only seen warriors and Michael's super cockroaches hatching out of pods.

If it had been up to me to decide how Wraith reproduce I'd have made them a species with a haplodiploid sex-determination system. Queens would mate only for producing female offspring so the faced males are sexually dormant for most of their lives. Warriors are produced as adults by secreting genetic material into pods but faced males and females are produced as infants by laying eggs in pods. If Michael can get a fully grown super cockroach from an Iratus bug egg in a pod I'm sure Wraith could get a baby out of a Wraith egg in a pod. :p Wraith babies could be born at a stage more advanced than human babies too because the size of the head etc wouldn't be dictated by the mother's anatomy.

The above doesn't mean I'm right, of course. We have no idea what TPTB would have decided if they'd had another season or two for SGA on TV. They might even have sidestepped the issue altogether on the grounds that Wraith mating habits aren't suitable material for a family viewing show. :p

Most people are already reaching for the mind bleach, c. :P

Draco-Stellaris
March 16th, 2011, 08:50 AM
@ciannwn: I wanted to green you for the brilliant post but GW won't let me, so have
BIG MENTAL GREENS.

WraithTech
March 16th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Yes, that definitely explains it. Look in any beehive, ant nest or termite nest and you'll see a queen sitting in a chair and secreting genetic material into pods via cables.

:lol:


The above doesn't mean I'm right, of course. We have no idea what TPTB would have decided if they'd had another season or two for SGA on TV. They might even have sidestepped the issue altogether on the grounds that Wraith mating habits aren't suitable material for a family viewing show. :p

Thanks for sharing, this post was well-researched and inclusively-written. I can easily discern what is transcript, what is fan speculation, and what is fan rationale for the speculation. Most importantly, the post is written so that fan speculation and pre-established facts from the show are not conflated to preclude the speculations the book authors.

WraithTech
March 16th, 2011, 09:01 AM
Most people are already reaching for the mind bleach, c. :P

The show kind of already went there with Teyla and Kanaan. :P

JoGraham
March 16th, 2011, 09:03 AM
We have no idea what TPTB would have decided if they'd had another season or two for SGA on TV. They might even have sidestepped the issue altogether on the grounds that Wraith mating habits aren't suitable material for a family viewing show. :p

We weren't given any information at all about this and were told there was no showrunner's "bible" for us to see. So all we can do is extrapolate from what we see on the screen, the same as you can. We were told to regard canon as what we see in a filmed, released scene, either that aired or as a DVD extra, and to disregard interviews, commentary, things said at cons, things in scripts that weren't filmed, etc on the grounds that those were conflicting and often not final. What we have to work with is what's on teh DVD sets, and that's it.

Isolde
March 16th, 2011, 09:08 AM
The show kind of already went there with Teyla and Kanaan. :P

*shudders* True, true... :D :P

ciannwn
March 16th, 2011, 09:09 AM
@ciannwn: I wanted to green you for the brilliant post but GW won't let me, so have
BIG MENTAL GREENS.


Thanks for sharing, this post was well-researched and inclusively-written. I can easily discern what is transcript, what is fan speculation, and what is fan rationale for the speculation. Most importantly, the post is written so that fan speculation and pre-established facts from the show are not conflated to preclude the speculations the book authors.

Thank you.

I think the problem with TPTB's vagueness is that it left infinite room for fans to speculate and come up with various theories. If the writers had gone into detail in a future series the result would have conflicted with some fans' favourite theory.

ciannwn
March 16th, 2011, 09:42 AM
We weren't given any information at all about this and were told there was no showrunner's "bible" for us to see.

I've always had the impression that TPTB made things up as they went along - maybe they couldn't supply the information because they hadn't thought about it in advance. :p My impression was strengthened by this explanation Joseph Mallozzi supplied concerning the Travellers.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/405.shtml


One of the nice things about SG-1, for instance, is that we'd be able to go off-world and encounter technologically advanced people as well as low-tech people. But the problem with Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy is we said that whenever a race would get technologically advanced the Wraith would come in and wipe them out. So there was never opportunity for a race to reach that level.

"So we decided, actually there is a way: We'll just put them in ships. And so there's an armada of ships that go from planet to planet. They come down and scavenge the leftovers of societies that have been culled by the Wraith.

We don't get much of a history -

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/transcripts/405.shtml


LARRIN: Sheppard, listen to me. Our fleet is old. There was a time when we had the resources to build new ships, but now we don't.

Was this before the Wraith took over Pegasus or after? If it was after, how did the Wraith manage to overlook all this ship building? A fleet isn't the same thing as a shuttle such as the one which turned up in 'The Ark'.

Draco-Stellaris
March 16th, 2011, 09:48 AM
Maybe the Travelers started out by picking abandoned Ancient ships and scavenging from Ancient cities to maintain their ships. Over the years these resources became scarce.

Elizabeth in her pseudo-ascended replicator form told the Lanteans there are civilisation in Pegasus that are technologically advanced. These may also be a source of tech for the Travelers.

ciannwn
March 16th, 2011, 10:02 AM
Maybe the Travelers started out by picking abandoned Ancient ships and scavenging from Ancient cities to maintain their ships. Over the years these resources became scarce.

Larrin talks about building new ships in the past. This isn't quite the same as scavenging from Ancient ships and cities to maintain existing ships


Elizabeth in her pseudo-ascended replicator form told the Lanteans there are civilisation in Pegasus that are technologically advanced. These may also be a source of tech for the Travelers.

The Genii managed to develop technology while hiding underground so it's not impossible for other civilisations to have done the same. I don't see how any of these civilisations could have built an entire fleet of spaceships, though.

Anyway, back to TPTB. They wanted to bring in a race of technologically advanced humans and decided that the way to do it was -


We'll just put them in ships.

And so they did without giving any real explanation. Traveller history is left to us fans to speculate about.

Isolde
March 16th, 2011, 10:13 AM
And so they did without giving any real explanation. Traveller history is left to us fans to speculate about.

And there's that terrible word again. Just think, if everybody speculated, there'd probably be an upsurge in... oh, I dunno... fiction... which could, well... lead to stories. Scandalous! We'll have to watch out for that speculate thingy more carefully. :rolleyes:

Artie
March 16th, 2011, 10:22 AM
And there's that terrible word again. Just think, if everybody speculated, there'd probably be an upsurge in... oh, I dunno... fiction... which could, well... lead to stories. Scandalous! We'll have to watch out for that speculate thingy more carefully. :rolleyes:

And what if some people speculated...differently?:eek: How would you know what was right if people just did all different things depending on what they wanted to do?

WraithTech
March 16th, 2011, 10:24 AM
And there's that terrible word again. Just think, if everybody speculated, there'd probably be an upsurge in... oh, I dunno... fiction... which could, well... lead to stories. Scandalous! We'll have to watch out for that speculate thingy more carefully. :rolleyes:

Just to clarify, in case I have been misunderstood in any of this, I don't have a problem with speculating, as that is how fanfics can be made, and thinking of the possibilities is fun for me. I do have a problem with a faction of Wiki writers converging on this thread and presenting their speculations as though they are facts in order to preclude the fanfics and books of others *points to the post where Leeta addressed said trolls.*

Isolde
March 16th, 2011, 10:26 AM
And what if some people speculated...differently?:eek: How would you know what was right if people just did all different things depending on what they wanted to do?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Fan-e-Gate
March 16th, 2011, 04:18 PM
wow, that's very weird!! yes, I agree naming them is just cheapening it all. Dont know why people write these books that have no connection to the series...

Ouroboros
March 16th, 2011, 05:47 PM
Yes, I am defending the authors' rights to chose which directions they wanted to take in the books (for names, reproduction, knowledge transfer, and so forth), based on lack of concrete facts presented in the show, which I have cited.

That is the crux of the reason so many canon-aware people have a sudden interest in this thread, isn't it, to challenge what it canon for their Wikis? Sorry, but that is off-topic here.

Wikis? Defending author's rights? What are you even talking about anymore? Who's taking away anyone's rights with some barely critical posts on an Internet forum?

Did you even go so far as to call me a troll in post #88?


wow, that's very weird!! yes, I agree naming them is just cheapening it all. Dont know why people write these books that have no connection to the series...

Oh, you're gonna get it now buddy. Better find a bridge to hide under quick! Or maybe a sock drawer! :p

ciannwn
March 17th, 2011, 01:18 AM
wow, that's very weird!! yes, I agree naming them is just cheapening it all. Dont know why people write these books that have no connection to the series...

orbofnight has a link to one of the author's blogs where Wraith names are explained. Basically, a name is a translation of how a Wraith 'feels' telepathically.

It was never firmly established in the show that Wraith don't have some version of names or ways of distinguishing individuals when talking about each other. Wraith Defenders Club members speculated about this and came up with various ideas. One involved providing a telepathic image of an individual who was being referred to in conversation eg - If Todd was telling another Wraith who his second in command is he'd transmit an image of Kenny. This method could be used on TV or in a movie by providing the viewer with a visual image but it wouldn't work in a book.

WDC members adopted Sheppard's policy of giving Wraith names because it makes life a lot easier for us when discussing Wraith in the show. For example, we named one Gawain but if I want to refer to this Wraith outside the WDC I have to say something like "the Sateda hunter who walked down a corridor and discovered Ronon clinging to the ceiling".

TPTB didn't bother to invent an in depth culture for the Wraith - they were just treated as big, bad aliens for the Atlantis expedition to shoot or blow up. They could have invented some kind of naming system for them but they took the easy way out by having Sheppard give them human names if a name was needed for plot purposes. It's fine for the Atlantis expedition people to talk about Todd and Kenny but Wraith wouldn't use those names when talking about Todd and Kenny with other Wraith.

The way I see it, then, is that the authors came up with a way of giving Wraith names for easy reference but invented an alien system for the naming.

Isolde
March 17th, 2011, 02:15 AM
...For example, we named one Gawain but if I want to refer to this Wraith outside the WDC I have to say something like "the Sateda hunter who walked down a corridor and discovered Ronon clinging to the ceiling". ...

...It's fine for the Atlantis expedition people to talk about Todd and Kenny but Wraith wouldn't use those names when talking about Todd and Kenny with other Wraith.


:lol: :lol:

Not having names also allows for easier objectification, and relegation to 'evil, life-sucking, green bugs!!11!1!', so that death and mayhem can be wrought on Wraith with impunity. Which suits the remit of the show i.e. cast humans in a heroic light, but I prefer my stories a little more subtle, and to have greater depth. Thus far, Jo Graham and Melissa Scott have not disappointed and, that the development of speculation has not detracted from the adventures of Team Shep, is evidence of their skills as writers and to their credit. Kudos for writing in difficult circumstances, say I.

ciannwn
March 17th, 2011, 03:06 AM
Not having names also allows for easier objectification, and relegation to 'evil, life-sucking, green bugs!!11!1!', so that death and mayhem can be wrought on Wraith with impunity. Which suits the remit of the show i.e. cast humans in a heroic light,

This is true. I'm now going back to something which was raised in the opening post.


My main problem with the Wraith being named is that it is a major mystery in the series why the Wraith never give their names, to just name them cheapen that. Now there are a few scenes in the series where the Wraith speak amongst themselves with no humans present and they do not use names then either, they refer to one another by position in the Hive, something which is rather natural.

Humans in Western society often refer to individuals by a title or position. Some examples are "I saw the Queen at Ascot" (which I did when I went to an Ascot horse racing day many years ago). ""I'll ask the receptionist if we can book our room for another night." "The Colonel won't be happy about that."

As for lack of Wraith names being a major mystery in the series, all we can really say is that TPTB never got round to inventing a naming system in 5 seasons. TPTB expected a 6th season but didn't get it. They added bits and pieces about Wraith culture as they went along so they might have ended the mystery themselves by inventing a naming system if a Season 6 plot required it.

SGA was supposed to have been continued in movies - as these movies never materialised we have no idea what would have been in them. TPTB could have invented a Wraith naming system if a movie plot required it.

WraithTech
March 17th, 2011, 03:16 AM
orbofnight has a link to one of the author's blogs where Wraith names are explained. Basically, a name is a translation of how a Wraith 'feels' telepathically.

Thanks, Ciannwn, the link was posted on the first page of this thread.

Also, within SGA, we were given this conversation in "The Hive":


SHEPPARD: OK, tell me this: how else could I get my hands on a Dart? And who else could provide me with specific instructions on how to infiltrate your hive and destroy it?

HIVE QUEEN: Of which queen do you speak?

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/transcripts/211.shtml

What is John supposed to say? The Queen with the pale skin, long hair, and stylish dress? :P


...I prefer my stories a little more subtle, and to have greater depth. Thus far, Jo Graham and Melissa Scott have not disappointed and, that the development of speculation has not detracted from the adventures of Team Shep, is evidence of their skills as writers and to their credit. Kudos for writing in difficult circumstances, say I.

These books are wonderful! They have plenty of surprises for the adventurous readers as well as layers of themes for the analytical readers who want to ponder things like the influence of power or who decides what individuals are worth. :D

The Flyattractor
March 22nd, 2011, 12:21 PM
book depository says still waiting on publication.

padr49904
March 24th, 2011, 09:23 AM
book depository says still waiting on publication.

Might be easier to just go somewhere else, a lot of members on here have it in the book form already.

Elite Anubis Guard
March 24th, 2011, 09:56 AM
Just order it directly from Fandy.

Starsaber
March 28th, 2011, 06:59 AM
I found it at Barnes & Noble and read it over the weekend.

I never even considered that the Wraith would reverse-Michael Rodney. That was a cool plot twist.

Overall, it didn't feel like much happened though. Another potential diplomatic crisis with the Genii and a whole subplot about Atlantis adapting to ice.

WraithTech
March 28th, 2011, 07:10 AM
I found it at Barnes & Noble and read it over the weekend.

I never even considered that the Wraith would reverse-Michael Rodney. That was a cool plot twist.

Overall, it didn't feel like much happened though. Another potential diplomatic crisis with the Genii and a whole subplot about Atlantis adapting to ice.


The Lost spoilers:

I laughed out loud when Ardent used the term "misbegotten" to describe Quicksilver in the game room. :P

Avoiding the lizard creatures in desert trek to the Avenger and Todd hiding Ronon and Jennifer away from Queen Death's followers was also exciting for me: new places, new situations, new ship and newly learned mysteries about the Ancients who left it there...

Starsaber
March 28th, 2011, 08:00 AM
The Lost spoilers:

I laughed out loud when Ardent used the term "misbegotten" to describe Quicksilver in the game room. :P

Avoiding the lizard creatures in desert trek to the Avenger and Todd hiding Ronon and Jennifer away from Queen Death's followers was also exciting for me: new places, new situations, new ship and newly learned mysteries about the Ancients who left it there...


I wasn't saying it was bad. I did like the character/species development, but there wasn't as much advancement in the overall story as I expected.

I also liked the Wraith interpretation of what happened with the Atlantis Expedition (though I'm not sure how they know about Carter's "consort" back on Earth ;) )

WraithTech
March 28th, 2011, 08:16 AM
I also liked the Wraith interpretation of what happened with the Atlantis Expedition (though I'm not sure how they know about Carter's "consort" back on Earth ;) )


I'm guessing Todd was the first source of this story. He stole information from Atlantis, possibly including things about Jack, and would have the sense of humor to call Woolsey 'Hairy.' :P :)

Elite Anubis Guard
March 28th, 2011, 11:28 AM
I found it at Barnes & Noble and read it over the weekend.

I never even considered that the Wraith would reverse-Michael Rodney. That was a cool plot twist.

Overall, it didn't feel like much happened though. Another potential diplomatic crisis with the Genii and a whole subplot about Atlantis adapting to ice.


Yeah, I can agree with you there. It did feel like a lot of build-up but they still kept the plot moving. Was very impressed with it over all though.

Artie
April 25th, 2011, 06:22 AM
In case anybody's interested, there's an Ask the Authors of the next Legacy book, Melissa Scott and Amy Griswold, going on here: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/122258.html

The Flyattractor
April 25th, 2011, 12:56 PM
Well somebody had to make one.


So discuss,discuss.

And mind yer spoilers.

Some of us are STILL READING!

The Flyattractor
May 10th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Ok. Read it.

Enjoyed it.

Not quite as much fun as the first read.
Could have used some more humor (IMO)

Only thing I really didn't like was the possible direction the origin of the Wraith might be taking.

But other then that.

A good read.

ciannwn
May 11th, 2011, 10:38 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed it. Have only just found your thread because we Wraith fans have been discussing the Legacy books so far in the Wraith Defenders Club.

The Flyattractor
May 11th, 2011, 05:20 PM
Oh just typical. I throw a party and everyone goes to the cool kids house instead.




JUST TYPICAL!

WraithRichard
May 11th, 2011, 05:33 PM
I'm interested in it, but I'm also wary given some bad and strange revews I've seen on Amazon.

Elite Anubis Guard
May 12th, 2011, 01:16 AM
I had commented on it in the other Legacy thread.

I loved it. Very good novel with a lot of character beats in it. A lot of setup still, but they're building towards something. I figured out the deal with Quicksilver straight away but that didn't make it any less interesting.

I just can't wait to read the next one.

ciannwn
May 12th, 2011, 01:23 AM
Oh just typical. I throw a party and everyone goes to the cool kids house instead.

JUST TYPICAL!

WDC members tend to live in that topic so we've been discussing the Wraithy bits there.


I'm interested in it, but I'm also wary given some bad and strange revews I've seen on Amazon.

Books are like movies and TV shows - not everyone's going to like them.

CheekyBeckett
May 12th, 2011, 08:35 AM
Didn't care for Homecoming much. Gave it another shot and just read The Lost.
Definite improvement. The Wraith parts were good even though the Quicksilver business is a bit obvious. I have no quarrel w/the action in the book but I still cringe at some of the dialogue.

WraithRichard
May 12th, 2011, 10:12 AM
Books are like movies and TV shows - not everyone's going to like them.

So, do you guys recommend I give it a try?

ciannwn
May 12th, 2011, 10:23 AM
So, do you guys recommend I give it a try?

This is the only way to find out if you'll like it. It's the second book in the Legacy series so you'll need to read Homecoming first if you haven't already done so.

WraithRichard
May 12th, 2011, 10:28 AM
This is the only way to find out if you'll like it. It's the second book in the Legacy series so you'll need to read Homecoming first if you haven't already done so.

That's a definite problem when it comes to a book. Unless it's a direct sequel, that means I'm going to have to work at just being able to open the book I'm interested in and understand what's happening.

Sevenofnine
May 19th, 2011, 03:19 PM
Have read Homecoming as well as Lost and enjoyed both books, just waiting now for the next one to come out in June sometime. It is good that we are getting a lot more of the wraith culture, there is more to them, than what the TV series gave us, but alas they won't show that will they anymore :(

WraithTech
May 20th, 2011, 08:41 AM
So, do you guys recommend I give it a try?

Give the Legacy series a try! All of the characters are treated fairly, not as sidekicks, comic relief, or one-dimensional villains. Considerable care was given to writing the realistic viewpoints of the characters, from Zelenka to Todd, as the video format didn't quite accommodate.

Without saying enough to be spoilery, in this book, Rodney’s new experiences are taking him past his comfort zone and Teyla’s fascinating Gift is being explored more. There is also an undercurrent of the theme of worth. What is one team member worth? What is one worth to him or her self?


The Wraith parts were good even though the Quicksilver business is a bit obvious.

It took me a while to catch on. I didn't think the writers would dare and kept thinking Quicksilver had to be a Wraith who got away from the Lanteans from a TV episode. :P

WraithTech
May 20th, 2011, 09:01 AM
*bumps thread up with some Queen Death fanart*

http://orbofnight.deviantart.com/art/Queen-Death-206351120

Elite Anubis Guard
May 21st, 2011, 12:43 AM
Absolutely loved both Legacy books. So far they're the fastest I've ever read any SG books. They're extremely well written and fit into the big picture easily. I'd recommend giving them a try. It's the only way you'll know if you like them too.

Predhead
May 29th, 2011, 07:59 AM
I know everywhere i see says 'june' for release.....no where can i find it to preorder it.....and June is like 2 days away haha

TuKwick_1
May 29th, 2011, 12:35 PM
I know everywhere i see says 'june' for release.....no where can i find it to preorder it.....and June is like 2 days away haha

What did the first two books cover?

Predhead
May 29th, 2011, 05:28 PM
after EATG when atlantis lands on earth and the journey back to the pegasus galaxy and all the antics one can get in to

Predhead
May 29th, 2011, 10:34 PM
they're the fastest because the base of the story is already set up....season 5 of sga...really the books are perfect when i'm done reading i've felt like i have spent the entire week watching atlantis. The books are perfect for imagining a season six....or seven

Predhead
May 29th, 2011, 10:54 PM
well at the very least it is stargate and that's good enough for me.

TuKwick_1
May 29th, 2011, 11:57 PM
after EATG when atlantis lands on earth and the journey back to the pegasus galaxy and all the antics one can get in to

I will have to pick up the books then.... amazon here i come....

Elite Anubis Guard
May 30th, 2011, 12:51 AM
They're really good and interesting reads. The majority of Fandemonium books are.

Leeta
May 30th, 2011, 07:41 AM
You'll probably be able to also order them at http://stargatenovels.com/ :)

Predhead
May 30th, 2011, 08:39 AM
I read on one of the writers LiveJounals that the third would be available near the END of June....disappointing. I read The Lost in three days.

Elite Anubis Guard
May 30th, 2011, 11:07 PM
That's a shame. I polished off The Lost pretty quickly too. I'm finding the Legacy series to be quite addictive.

Predhead
May 31st, 2011, 01:07 PM
aaaabsolutly addicting. I've got several sg-1 books and atlantis books and i have found all of them exceptional reads. But the Legacy series has been just absolutly perfection in continuing something that ended too soon. I'm waiting on SGU books too.

Predhead
June 1st, 2011, 08:54 AM
the link http://mescott.livejournal.com/

WraithTech
June 1st, 2011, 08:56 AM
the link http://mescott.livejournal.com/

Here is another link: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/

Sevenofnine
June 1st, 2011, 07:18 PM
I have checked at stargate novels and they haven't listed anything about book 3 of the Legacy series, and I thought it would be out in June too. Looking forward to this book coming out, so hope it will be soon.

WraithTech
June 3rd, 2011, 05:29 AM
More fanart...

Ember by Hive 53 artist Draco-Stellaris:

http://draco-stellaris.deviantart.com/art/Ember-204222015

Predhead
June 5th, 2011, 01:27 PM
shoot i think it'll be like july :-( haha i'll try and read the first two again before the third. right now i'm reading the last templar

jetnova16
June 9th, 2011, 07:32 PM
I am about halfway done with this book and only have had it for about 4 days. Now I am really interested when Book 3 StarGate Atlantis Legacy Allegiance is coming out. I read that it was supposed to be this month (June 2011) but I can't find it any where and that includes Amazon.

seldear
June 13th, 2011, 03:04 PM
According to Jo Graham's blog, Allegiance was at MGM awaiting final approval (http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/127670.html) as of the 3rd June.

A few days earlier, Melissa Scott (co-author of Allegiance with Amy Griswold) posted that they still hadn't received the reviewed manuscript back from MGM (http://mescott.livejournal.com/6666.html?format=light).

Gunk in the works, might be a wait. :(

Having read the drafts, I love the ending of Allegiance. Big space battle action. BIIIIG. ;)

jetnova16
June 13th, 2011, 03:31 PM
According to Jo Graham's blog, Allegiance was at MGM awaiting final approval (http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/127670.html) as of the 3rd June.

A few days earlier, Melissa Scott (co-author of Allegiance with Amy Griswold) posted that they still hadn't received the reviewed manuscript back from MGM (http://mescott.livejournal.com/6666.html?format=light).

Gunk in the works, might be a wait. :(

Having read the drafts, I love the ending of Allegiance. Big space battle action. BIIIIG. ;)

Dam! :mckay::( That is very disappointing! Why couldn't they write the book sooner? That is so terrible since I can finish these StarGate books in 3 days and don't want to read anything else now that I set my sights onto the Legacy Series and especially when I planned to be able to read the book by mid-lated June. :(

Any ideas when it will be out Jo Graham?

WraithRichard
June 13th, 2011, 06:14 PM
Dam! :mckay::( That is very disappointing! Why couldn't they write the book sooner? That is so terrible since I can finish these StarGate books in 3 days and don't want to read anything else now that I set my sights onto the Legacy Series and especially when I planned to be able to read the book by mid-lated June. :(

Any ideas when it will be out Jo Graham?

I heard that MGM is tying almost all Stargate contacts in knots, which is why we lost the MMORPG, shows, and movies (they also went backrupt and this didn't help). Now we lose the books too?

jetnova16
June 13th, 2011, 07:16 PM
I heard that MGM is tying almost all Stargate contacts in knots, which is why we lost the MMORPG, shows, and movies (they also went backrupt and this didn't help). Now we lose the books too?

We better not lose the books, then there is nothing left of StarGate at all to either read or do. Plus they can't force the books out, they got a 6 part series to finish that they have already announced, they can't just leave that at a cliffhanger the way they have if they take away the books as well.

MGM might own StarGate, but they shouldn't have a right to control the books. Does anyone see Paramount doing that with Star Trek for example? It seems like any books can go there just about, especially some that turn canon upside down and also sideways. Why can't MGM do the same with StarGate?

Either way, I want more StarGate novels, I want StarGate Atlantis The Legacy Series to continue and I bet I am not the only one. :)

Elite Anubis Guard
June 14th, 2011, 02:24 AM
I seriously doubt MGM are doing it to harm. Last I heard they only had one person doing the approvals for all their franchises. That's a lot of work. Just be patient. I'm sure it'll all be worth it.

jetnova16
June 14th, 2011, 12:23 PM
I seriously doubt MGM are doing it to harm. Last I heard they only had one person doing the approvals for all their franchises. That's a lot of work. Just be patient. I'm sure it'll all be worth it.

Hopefully :)! I just really want Book 3 of the Legacy series but I just got three books today, all StarGate.
StarGate Atlantis: Rising
StarGate Atlantis: Casualties of War
StarGate Atlantis: Brimstone

Now I have those and also Books 1 & 2 of the Legacy Series. :)

TuKwick_1
July 2nd, 2011, 08:09 AM
I have both of the new books...... i still need to read them.... I hope i get time over the holiday.

Elite Anubis Guard
July 5th, 2011, 07:34 AM
Anything new from Jo about the 3rd book?

Artie
July 5th, 2011, 08:06 AM
Sadly, no. Allegiance is still at MGM awaiting their sign off.

ns2
July 19th, 2011, 10:04 AM
Apparently the prob is with MGM they haven't given the writers final approval yet

Artie
July 19th, 2011, 10:11 AM
Apparently the prob is with MGM they haven't given the writers final approval yet

Yep, still stuck according to Melissa Scott: http://mescott.livejournal.com/8574.html

WraithTech
July 19th, 2011, 11:35 AM
Thanks for starting this thread, btw. I am eagerly awaiting the next part of the story. :)

The Flyattractor
August 26th, 2011, 01:51 PM
Please tell me the 3rd book hasn't come out yet.
If it has what was it titled?

Hyndara71
August 27th, 2011, 05:27 AM
It's still not available, Flyattractor :).

The Flyattractor
August 27th, 2011, 01:03 PM
Yay....I think.

Sevenofnine
September 16th, 2011, 05:41 PM
Good news at last

follow link:

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/2011/09/06/

Cheering :D:D:D

Artie
October 2nd, 2011, 02:20 AM
Preview teaser for Allegiance up on Jo Graham's LJ!

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/143494.html

Elite Anubis Guard
October 6th, 2011, 09:19 AM
Fantastic preview. Wish it'd hurry up already:



Allegiance, book 3 of the Stargate Atlantis Legacy series, will be out in 4-6 weeks! While it's Melissa and Amy's book, not mine, I'm really delighted to have the next book in the series out and I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think of it. I enjoyed it a lot and I can't wait for the next bits of plot to be revealed!

Hopefully, everything with MGM running smoothly, book 4, The Avengers, will then be out in February or March. That's my solo book and I'm very proud of it. It's the women kick butt book, Teyla's book, with the action moved along by Sam, Jennifer, Queen Death, and yes, in a way by Elizabeth Weir. Is she really just Quicksilver's dream? And if so, why is Teyla dreaming about her too? I'm also very pleased with a cameo scene I wrote for Daniel Jackson, my first time writing him professionally.

But not the last! Moebius Squared is off at Fandemonium for edits, a time travel adventure with SG-1 -- twice! When the post-Continuum team has to travel back in time to stop a nefarious plot, their only help is from the AU team left behind in Moebius. Two Daniels, two Sams, two Teal'cs, one Jack, one Cameron, and one Vala are definitely mayhem squared in Early Dynastic Egypt! Melissa and I had a lot of fun with it and we hope you do too.

Snowman37
October 6th, 2011, 09:19 PM
I just discovered that there is a Legacy book series based on Stargate: Atlantis. I usually have no interest in reading books based on a TV series (I'd rather read something original), but this really intrigues me. SGA had a good run and a fantastic finale, but... it left me wanting more. Is this new book series worth checking out? The first book is up on Amazon for about $8. Not bad! To those who'd recommend the book series, why? I read that two are published, and there are plans for four more books. Will Part 6 be the end, or is that just the last one planned so far?

Falcon Horus
October 7th, 2011, 02:42 AM
There's some info in the Stargate Atlantis Novels thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/49104-stargate-atlantis-novels) about the Legacy series - the reviews are all over the place, from negative to positive, to meh-don't-bother.

Or you could check the writer's LJ for more info - though expect a biased view (which is entirely obvious of course :p).

Melissa Scott (http://mescott.livejournal.com/)
Jo Graham (http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/)

And oh... people will try to convince you it's canon and others will tell you it's not. ;) These books are controversy galore... :p
If Anti/Pro-threads were still allowed, these books would definitely have them.

Snowman37
October 7th, 2011, 01:29 PM
The thread is 13 pages long. I don't have the time to search through all of that. That's why I started a new thread specifically for the Legacy series. As I said, I'm only interested in post-finale novels.

What is a writer's LJ?

The debate of the books being canon or not is moot as the entire TV/movie franchise has come to an end. The books might as well be canon until another series or movie happens, but that might not be for a very long time if it happens at all.

Falcon Horus
October 7th, 2011, 01:34 PM
What is a writer's LJ?

The Livejournal.com accounts of the writer's of the books - if you like to ask them a question maybe, that's the place to go. Or you could track em down via GW itself. A few are registered members here (under their names and/or disguised as other posters).

There's more information about the books there - Graham co-wrote the first 2 so you should find plenty of feedback there.

The Stargate Novel Thread should be read backwards as far as Legacy is concerned.

Snowman37
October 7th, 2011, 02:05 PM
I don't read blogs. I've already read about the books' overall premise, that's why I started this thread. As for the other thread... I just don't have the time to be digging around through thirteen pages of posts.

Have you read Stargate: Atlantis - Homecoming (Book 1 of the Legacy series)?

Falcon Horus
October 7th, 2011, 02:22 PM
Have you read Stargate: Atlantis - Homecoming (Book 1 of the Legacy series)?

No, hence why I'm giving out general info. And I have no intention of reading either... In fact, I haven't read a single one of the books that were written. Don't have the time to be quite honest - my to-read list is longer than my life will be long I'm afraid.

Sevenofnine
October 7th, 2011, 05:06 PM
More delicious info - read the following - its great ... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/144351.html

Another snippet of whats to come, soooooo looking forward to these books, I'm re-reading The Lost again, in preparation for Allegiance.

Elite Anubis Guard
October 10th, 2011, 08:18 AM
So far it's just the 6 books planned at the moment. I thoroughly enjoyed both Homecoming and The Lost and read them through faster than I've read any of the other SG books (and I've read them all). #3 is due out next month. Worth picking up IMHO and you wont know how well you like them until you try yourself.

Snowman37
October 10th, 2011, 08:46 AM
Without diving into the plot, what was the reason for flying Atlantis back to Pegasus? What is Atlantis needed for that an Earth-ship can't do? This is basically what's going to determine whether I read the books or not.

Jaymach
October 12th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Without diving into the plot, what was the reason for flying Atlantis back to Pegasus? What is Atlantis needed for that an Earth-ship can't do? This is basically what's going to determine whether I read the books or not.
It was basically a political decision. None of the countries on Earth were happy with Atlantis being in American territory and there wasn't really anywhere that would change that seeing as it was essentially an invincible weapons platform that could pick out and destroy any target on Earth. The IOA weren't willing to make a firm decision on it either way, so O'Neill took it over as a military outpost to force their hand, knowing that they would never allow it to stay as a military outpost. Shortly after, they decided it was in everyone's best interest for it to return to the Pegasus galaxy.

Snowman37
October 12th, 2011, 09:30 PM
They couldn't have shipped it off to Mars instead? :S

Jaymach
October 13th, 2011, 10:37 PM
They bring up a lot of ethical issues, from what I remember, but that was me going purely by memory. Plus you asked for the reasoning "without diving into plot" so I figured you weren't wanting to know every single little thing. I can look it up later today if you want the full explanation.

Angela V
October 26th, 2011, 07:21 PM
I found the books on Amazon.ca. Got the first book fine. Now the second one is taking way longer. They better not be out of print!

Artie
October 27th, 2011, 10:24 AM
I found the books on Amazon.ca. Got the first book fine. Now the second one is taking way longer. They better not be out of print!

It shouldn't be. And the third book is due to come out next month.

gatechick
October 27th, 2011, 10:52 AM
Is book three able to be pre-ordered anywhere yet? I have been checking amazon frequently but don't see it.

Artie
October 27th, 2011, 10:59 AM
Is book three able to be pre-ordered anywhere yet? I have been checking amazon frequently but don't see it.

No, not yet. The first place the books usually appear is on the publisher's website. http://www.stargatenovels.com/

ciannwn
October 28th, 2011, 10:31 AM
SGA had a good run and a fantastic finale, but... it left me wanting more. Is this new book series worth checking out?

It's like SGA Season Six in novel form. I enjoyed the first two books and am looking forward to the third. I recommend giving the first book a try.

mercy moon
October 29th, 2011, 11:22 AM
It's like SGA Season Six in novel form. I enjoyed the first two books and am looking forward to the third. I recommend giving the first book a try.

Absolutely! ... And not only a great action plot, but full of wonderful personal moments which seem to be leading to actual advancements in character relationships, etc. Going on the first two books, I have to say this is thestory that should be the movie if it's ever made!! :D

Tony23310
October 29th, 2011, 02:14 PM
Hi guys! Have you ever read Stargate Atlantis: Legacy Books? (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Stargate_Atlantis:_Legacy)

I have some questions!

1. Until now 2 books have been released(ONLY from the Stargate Atlantis: Legacy Books). In Gateworld: http://www.gateworld.net/books/ at the Atlantis Novels I saw that the 3rd book will be released in June of 2011, but I can't find the book anywhere in the internet. I searched amazon and I didn't find it! Why it isn't released yet? Or do you know when it will be released?

2. Have you read the 1st book ''Homecoming''? If someone read this, I have some questions about this book because I am gonna buy it!:sheppard:

2.1 How many pages does the book has?
2.2 What exactly does the book say?
2.3 Did you like it?
2.4 How much time did you spend to read it?
2.5 Does it has pictures? Are they colored or without color?

Jaymach
October 29th, 2011, 09:31 PM
1) The book will be available next month. The release date has been changed many times, but it looks like it should be within the next three to four weeks now.

2.1) Homecoming has 368 pages, though the novel itself ends at page 3350. (just updated the wiki to reflect this, don't know why I hadn't already)

2.2) I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's a novel so it says...a lot. If you mean the back blurb, I've also updated the wiki to show this.

2.3) I enjoyed it very much; the characterisations were brilliant, the plot was realistic and filled with the right amount of suspense to keep me interested throughout.

2.4) I finished it in a few hours, as I do with all Stargate novels, but I am a tad obsessed with them...

2.5) The only pictures are the cover image. It's a novel so there's no reference pictures inside.

Tony23310
October 30th, 2011, 03:04 AM
1) The book will be available next month. The release date has been changed many times, but it looks like it should be within the next three to four weeks now.

2.1) Homecoming has 368 pages, though the novel itself ends at page 3350. (just updated the wiki to reflect this, don't know why I hadn't already)

2.2) I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's a novel so it says...a lot. If you mean the back blurb, I've also updated the wiki to show this.

2.3) I enjoyed it very much; the characterisations were brilliant, the plot was realistic and filled with the right amount of suspense to keep me interested throughout.

2.4) I finished it in a few hours, as I do with all Stargate novels, but I am a tad obsessed with them...

2.5) The only pictures are the cover image. It's a novel so there's no reference pictures inside.

How did you read the book in a few hours? I would need weeks to read these 368 pages!
I also have another question! How much size is the book? I mean is it big and heavy?

Thank you very much to answer to my questions and edit the wiki about the book!

Hyndara71
October 30th, 2011, 11:23 AM
It's a paperback so - not heavy.

Tony23310
October 30th, 2011, 11:40 AM
It's a paperback so - not heavy.
Ok, but how is it bossible a book have 368 pages and not be heavy? Is there any picture to see the size of the book?

Jaymach
October 30th, 2011, 01:59 PM
It's just a standard novel; 17 centimeters by 10.6 centimeters and about 2.2 centimeters thick. The thing will fit in your hand.

Hyndara71
October 30th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Ok, but how is it bossible a book have 368 pages and not be heavy? Is there any picture to see the size of the book?

Because it's a paperback *headdesk*. You don't have much experience with reading books, right? A chance to read via Kindle? It's also avaiable as kindle-edition.

Tony23310
October 31st, 2011, 12:01 PM
Because it's a paperback *headdesk*. You don't have much experience with reading books, right? A chance to read via Kindle? It's also avaiable as kindle-edition.
I didn't buy any books, especially English books. Stargate Atlantis Homecoming will be the first English book I will read! And I don't have Kindle and I won't buy it.

Artie
November 1st, 2011, 12:23 PM
Good news on when Allegiance will be out! http://mescott.livejournal.com/10655.html

ciannwn
November 1st, 2011, 01:11 PM
Good news on when Allegiance will be out! http://mescott.livejournal.com/10655.html

I hope that's the Kindle version as well.

Artie
November 1st, 2011, 01:16 PM
I hope that's the Kindle version as well.

I think it is the Kindle version with the print version to follow.

ciannwn
November 1st, 2011, 01:22 PM
I think it is the Kindle version with the print version to follow.

:D :D :D

I'll be haunting Amazon uk in four weeks time.

Angela V
November 1st, 2011, 10:38 PM
It shouldn't be. And the third book is due to come out next month.

I checked Amazon.ca and it's now saying they are out of stock. I assume they will get in more.

bluealien
November 2nd, 2011, 01:21 AM
Absolutely! ... And not only a great action plot, but full of wonderful personal moments which seem to be leading to actual advancements in character relationships, etc. Going on the first two books, I have to say this is thestory that should be the movie if it's ever made!! :D

Totally agree... so far I'm loving these books. They give us so much more than the show ever gave us particulary a good balance between the characters. There's also a great balance between action and character development and some lovely personal moments. I can't wait until book 3 comes out...

I definitely recommend them..:D

Tony23310
November 2nd, 2011, 05:29 AM
I think it is the Kindle version with the print version to follow.
Wow. Nice news! I would like to read all the books from Stargate Atlantis Legacy Series, but first I must to read the Homecoming and after that buy and read the next books!

Artie
November 3rd, 2011, 12:28 PM
How the Legacy books were planned: http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/148853.html

Hyndara71
November 3rd, 2011, 03:48 PM
I hope that's the Kindle version as well.

As far as I know there will be also a Kindle version. Unfortunately I've delete the last Fandy-newspaper but I think they will be more and more in ebooks. It's cheaper for them to publish and we as reader don't have trouble when we are from a foreign country.

Falcon Horus
November 3rd, 2011, 03:55 PM
As far as I know there will be also a Kindle version. Unfortunately I've delete the last Fandy-newspaper but I think they will be more and more in ebooks. It's cheaper for them to publish and we as reader don't have trouble when we are from a foreign country.

Tough luck on those folks who love to stick their noses deep in between the pages of a new/old book and smell it (I have a friend who does that - I kid you not). Turning pages and hearing the paper tear a little when done too hastily. Seeing the books line up on the shelves... If only Gutenberg had known.

Hyndara71
November 4th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Tough luck on those folks who love to stick their noses deep in between the pages of a new/old book and smell it (I have a friend who does that - I kid you not). Turning pages and hearing the paper tear a little when done too hastily. Seeing the books line up on the shelves... If only Gutenberg had known.

Well, at least you don't know me.
Actually I own something between 2 and 3,000 books, fiction, non-fiction, a small amount of audio books. The problem is I'm running out of space. I have three wall shelves (over the complete walls), also three cupboards and the box of my old PC full of books I don't want to give away. And the possibility is more about to buy more books then to give books away.
Plus, I tried several time to order directly from Fandy but - don't know why - never got what I've ordered. So I have to buy via amazon - but some of the novels never were listed there so I have to buy them from expensive sellers. For example: "Death Game" wasn't avaiable via amazon. I tried to order it directly but again the process failed. Finally I ordered the novel via an importer and had to pay 25 Euros. When you look at the price for the kindle-edition of "Death Game" ... that one only costs around 4 - 6 Euros. I'm not a millionair, sorry, I will pay for the cheaper offer.
BTW, who told you it isn't in Gutenbergs mind to read via a ebook-reader? When I remember right his intention to develop book printing was to make it easier for everyone to read books. An ebook-reader is also a way to read books and it is easy.

But I agree with you. There is no better smell as the smell of a book. And you know what? When I open a book for the first time I always put my nose deep inside of it and inhale. And it's always wonderful!

Falcon Horus
November 4th, 2011, 09:52 AM
Perhaps build book-walls... wouldn't that be like an extra wall to keep the warmth inside the house. :)

Hyndara71
November 4th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Perhaps build book-walls... wouldn't that be like an extra wall to keep the warmth inside the house. :)

For now I would be more than glad if the warmth would go away ... It's terrible hot here, more than 20°C today.

bookwormjules
November 7th, 2011, 02:49 AM
Well, at least you don't know me.
Actually I own something between 2 and 3,000 books, fiction, non-fiction, a small amount of audio books. The problem is I'm running out of space. I have three wall shelves (over the complete walls), also three cupboards and the box of my old PC full of books I don't want to give away. And the possibility is more about to buy more books then to give books away.
Plus, I tried several time to order directly from Fandy but - don't know why - never got what I've ordered. So I have to buy via amazon - but some of the novels never were listed there so I have to buy them from expensive sellers. For example: "Death Game" wasn't avaiable via amazon. I tried to order it directly but again the process failed. Finally I ordered the novel via an importer and had to pay 25 Euros. When you look at the price for the kindle-edition of "Death Game" ... that one only costs around 4 - 6 Euros. I'm not a millionair, sorry, I will pay for the cheaper offer.
BTW, who told you it isn't in Gutenbergs mind to read via a ebook-reader? When I remember right his intention to develop book printing was to make it easier for everyone to read books. An ebook-reader is also a way to read books and it is easy.

But I agree with you. There is no better smell as the smell of a book. And you know what? When I open a book for the first time I always put my nose deep inside of it and inhale. And it's always wonderful!

2000 - 3000 Books? I envy you right now! I have a collection of around 580. Mostly fiction books, but I'm running out of space - tiny apartment just doesn't cut it. I like having the option to buy some of the stargate book via ebook as well - especially the out of print ones. I just wish they used a more universal format, not exclusively Kindle. I have a Kobo and it doesn't support Kindle format, so I'm stuck reading them on the computer. I also agree with having the physical book over ebook is much better.

In any event, I'm awaiting when the next Legacy series book (and the rest) come out. The Lost left us off in a big cliffhanger - a multi-month long cliffhanger at that. End of November? I think I can do that.

jannagalaxy
November 16th, 2011, 01:22 PM
I just wish they used a more universal format, not exclusively Kindle. I have a Kobo and it doesn't support Kindle format, so I'm stuck reading them on the computer. I also agree with having the physical book over ebook is much better.

In any event, I'm awaiting when the next Legacy series book (and the rest) come out. The Lost left us off in a big cliffhanger - a multi-month long cliffhanger at that. End of November? I think I can do that.

I feel the same way! I've got a Kobo and almost all the books are now on kindle. I've just been to the stargate novels website and Allegiance is available to buy but not yet on any E-reader. I got all the books in paper back but I would really like to have them on my kobo so I can free up some room in my flat and not worry in a few years the books may get damaged by my pet rabbit.

Artie
November 16th, 2011, 02:16 PM
Allegiance is out! http://www.amazon.com/STARGATE-ATLANTIS-Allegiance-Legacy-ebook/dp/B0068QD8Q8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321484868&sr=8-1

Angela V
November 18th, 2011, 11:03 AM
Amazon finally shipped out the 2nd book to me! Though online it still says out of stock. Just glad I got it.

bookwormjules
November 20th, 2011, 05:01 AM
I broke down and bought the Kindle for PC version. Couldn't wait for it to be available in print and it takes to long when I order it direct from the publisher.

Elite Anubis Guard
November 20th, 2011, 09:11 AM
I can't get a Kindle or anything like that. It's just not the same experience. I've ordered the print copy and I canne wait for it to get here.