"Structure" in the background radiation

[James71]

When they say the acients detected evidence of "Structure" in the background noise/radiation that could mean two different things to me.

A) A physical structure, something with a physical destination (planet, ship, etc)
or
B) Structure could be something more non-physical, such as a signal that they need to get much closer to in order to analyze the "structure" of the signal/message.

I am trying to understand better what the writers are hinting at.

Does anyone else have a better understanding the new mission?

[morbosfist]

"Structure" is meant in the sense that there's a pattern, a coherence to the radiation artificial in origin.

[spaceship]

If the background radiation permeates the entire universe why do they have to send a ship out to investigate it? Why not just stay back on earth and do it in a lab? It all sounds rather difficult to believe.

[Pond Hopper]

If the background radiation permeates the entire universe why do they have to send a ship out to investigate it? Why not just stay back on earth and do it in a lab? It all sounds rather difficult to believe.

Because you can't study it from Earth, it's at the very edge of the universe.

Imagine a deflated balloon, that's the universe at the time of the big bang. Now imagine the balloon inflating, that's the universe expanding afterwards, the structure present at the time of the big bang would move away as the universe expands.

[spaceship]

Because you can't study it from Earth, it's at the very edge of the universe.

Imagine a deflated balloon, that's the universe at the time of the big bang. Now imagine the balloon inflating, that's the universe expanding afterwards, the structure present at the time of the big bang would move away as the universe expands.

I don't know. Scientists on earth managed to detect it. You can even see it yourself if you turn on your TV and change to an empty channel. The static is supposed to be because of the background radiation left over from the big bang. They even made an x files ep about it :)

http://x-files.wikia.com/wiki/Conduit

[Selene1212]

Isn't this what the group SETI is all about?

[PG15]

^No, SETI is about intercepting artificial signals coming from space from alien sources; Destiny's mission is a little more grand than that.


Because you can't study it from Earth, it's at the very edge of the universe.

Imagine a deflated balloon, that's the universe at the time of the big bang. Now imagine the balloon inflating, that's the universe expanding afterwards, the structure present at the time of the big bang would move away as the universe expands.

You can definitely study it from Earth - otherwise we wouldn't know about it, would we? ;)

The CMB is indeed everywhere in the Universe; it's made up of photons that were "freed" after the Universe cooled enough for atoms to form (before that all the charged particles basically kept them bouncing around all over the place), basically taking a 3D snapshot of the temperature/density distribution of the entire Universe at that moment in time.

Clearly, the writers didn't explain everything in this episode and there's probably more detail to it that will be revealed later. What exactly is Destiny doing out here? Why the Stargates? etc. etc. There's very little point in revealing it all now; better to keep the audience guessing.

[James71]

Clearly, the writers didn't explain everything in this episode and there's probably more detail to it that will be revealed later. What exactly is Destiny doing out here? Why the Stargates? etc. etc. There's very little point in revealing it all now; better to keep the audience guessing.

We might need the writers to reveal everything they planned if this doesn't get covered in Season 2.
I would really hate to see this cancelled after season 2 with all of these questions never answered. Just for plot closure for the fans, I hope they can answer some of these questions online.

[Arwis]

What part of Rush's words ''It's not for our technology to detect'' you did not understood?. Maybe there are things that our current science doesn't know and we have no technological means of detecting that meaning we don't know that. What ancients found in that radiational background we don't know as we can't detect it. So leave all the current science behind.

Yes we can detect that background radiation, however we can't detect what they found in it meaning we cannot know whether we can test it from earth. And since ancients couldn't test it, we have to accept the fact that we cannot too.

Writers were clear that there's something ancients found but couldn't identify enough so they build destiny.

[tomstone]

What if that Pattern is actually like the Universes DNA? Destiny is traveling through the Universe to collect infos about the Galaxies and their respective Patterns, if Destiny can detect and save the Patterns from the different Galaxies, then it may actually come to a point where you have enough information to decode the patterns and maybe even manipulate them.

[Skiznot]

I don't think it's the kind of structure you can get physically closer to. I don't think the cosmic microwave back ground can be a physical destination. In cosmology I believe they often look for a correlation between the cosmic microwave background and the structure of the observable universe. If they made a correlation between data of the CMB and locations in the physical universe then destiny could be visiting all these locations that are now separated by 13 billion years of expansion.

Thinking back to the balloon analogy and imagine that before it's inflated you see a visible pattern of dots (this would be the CMB) but as the balloon inflates and the dots grow farther apart it becomes more difficult to see the pattern. Speaking in real simple metaphor perhaps Destiny sit trying somehow to connect the dots in the physical universe to make sense of what the ancients saw in the Cosmic Microwave Background.

[Nikec3]

What if that Pattern is actually like the Universes DNA? Destiny is traveling through the Universe to collect infos about the Galaxies and their respective Patterns, if Destiny can detect and save the Patterns from the different Galaxies, then it may actually come to a point where you have enough information to decode the patterns and maybe even manipulate them.

This is very close to what I have thinking...

[Carter's Boy]

I don't think it's the kind of structure you can get physically closer to. I don't think the cosmic microwave back ground can be a physical destination. In cosmology I believe they often look for a correlation between the cosmic microwave background and the structure of the observable universe. If they made a correlation between data of the CMB and locations in the physical universe then destiny could be visiting all these locations that are now separated by 13 billion years of expansion.

Thinking back to the balloon analogy and imagine that before it's inflated you see a visible pattern of dots (this would be the CMB) but as the balloon inflates and the dots grow farther apart it becomes more difficult to see the pattern. Speaking in real simple metaphor perhaps Destiny sit trying somehow to connect the dots in the physical universe to make sense of what the ancients saw in the Cosmic Microwave Background.


thanks Mr. Wizard i get it!

[Cylykon]

I don't think it's the kind of structure you can get physically closer to. I don't think the cosmic microwave back ground can be a physical destination. In cosmology I believe they often look for a correlation between the cosmic microwave background and the structure of the observable universe. If they made a correlation between data of the CMB and locations in the physical universe then destiny could be visiting all these locations that are now separated by 13 billion years of expansion.

Thinking back to the balloon analogy and imagine that before it's inflated you see a visible pattern of dots (this would be the CMB) but as the balloon inflates and the dots grow farther apart it becomes more difficult to see the pattern. Speaking in real simple metaphor perhaps Destiny sit trying somehow to connect the dots in the physical universe to make sense of what the ancients saw in the Cosmic Microwave Background.

The CMB contains small thermal variations, generated by quantum fluctuations of matter in a very tiny space, expanded to universe sized proportions by inflation. The writers' idea that it may represent intelligence is pure, unadulterated fantasy since the photons that are the CMB are visible only because the universe cooled enough for stable atoms of hydrogen to form. There is NOTHING for Destiny to find. It's just a "snapshot" that shows all the intelligence of quantum brownian motion.

Like Brannon and Braga's Future Guy on Enterprise, or RDM's Cylons who "Had A Plan" for three seasons, Mallozzi's writers talked the talk, but ultimately couldn't walk the walk. We're just gonna get a lot more speculative Faith Planet aliens ambiguous bullsh!t, more "I miss my mommy" stones stores, and more irrational and inexplicable "evil Lucian Alliance dudes allowed to roam free in order to create dramatic tension". Oh, and perhaps a few more "alien bugs cause mass hallucinations" stories.

If SGU can't find enough viewers who find Foxy Loxy devouring Chicken Little "compelling drama", I suspect SyFy is gonna abort season 3.

[pipi]

From SG1 there is a creature that exists but can't be seen, so they had to use special detector and blast guns; and also there was an episode where these giant bugs appeared on Earth but they were non corporeal, apparently they have been there since the dawn of time. So many mysteries to choose from.

[morbosfist]

From SG1 there is a creature that exists but can't be seen, so they had to use special detector and blast guns; and also there was an episode where these giant bugs appeared on Earth but they were non corporeal, apparently they have been there since the dawn of time. So many mysteries to choose from.Those bugs were from another dimension, and had always been on Earth.

[PG15]

The CMB contains small thermal variations, generated by quantum fluctuations of matter in a very tiny space, expanded to universe sized proportions by inflation. The writers' idea that it may represent intelligence is pure, unadulterated fantasy since the photons that are the CMB are visible only because the universe cooled enough for stable atoms of hydrogen to form. There is NOTHING for Destiny to find. It's just a "snapshot" that shows all the intelligence of quantum brownian motion.

Yes, that is what we think it is based on the observations we've accrued.

But the show's premise with that is that, if our instruments were bettered, we'd detect this structure. It's beyond what we can refute with what we have in the real world. As for what Destiny is trying to find - that was left vague in the episode.


Like Brannon and Braga's Future Guy on Enterprise, or RDM's Cylons who "Had A Plan" for three seasons, Mallozzi's writers talked the talk, but ultimately couldn't walk the walk. We're just gonna get a lot more speculative Faith Planet aliens ambiguous bullsh!t, more "I miss my mommy" stones stores, and more irrational and inexplicable "evil Lucian Alliance dudes allowed to roam free in order to create dramatic tension".


The writers know how the show is going to end.

[eonflux]

The whole concept of what was said is mind-boggling to me. What are they saying that the universe is constructed? Well maybe... maybe the universe is just a drop of something bigger. Maybe we are bacteria for something else who knows.

But creating ships that are going to take millions of years to get to place which in a millions years you could reach easier is just ludacris. Why not wait till you get better tech or evolve to a state where time/space mathers little. What do you think we will become if we don't manage to blow our selfs up?

To me it feels like a Rush fabrication because i see no logic in the Ancients undertaking such an expedition. Why ping-pong all over the galaxy instead of putting the **** on auto-pilot only to stop to refuel and take the shortest route.

[morbosfist]

It not about getting to the destination fast, it's about being able to pick up the pieces along the way.

[Cylykon]

Yes, that is what we think it is based on the observations we've accrued.

But the show's premise with that is that, if our instruments were bettered, we'd detect this structure. It's beyond what we can refute with what we have in the real world. As for what Destiny is trying to find - that was left vague in the episode.

That "structure" was created before even stable hydrogen atoms formed and fills the entire universe. Whatever Destiny is looking for, isn't going to be made out of matter and "findable" because it would be EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. It would be akin to the speculatively ambiguous Faith Planet "aliens/supreme beings".


The writers know how the show is going to end.

I was referring the "reveal" being a "let down" after all the "build up". The "check" that Mallozzi wrote, "bounced".

[Cylykon]

To me it feels like a Rush fabrication because i see no logic in the Ancients undertaking such an expedition. Why ping-pong all over the galaxy instead of putting the ship on auto-pilot only to stop to refuel and take the shortest route.

It would certainly be more believable and more compelling if it were YARF (yet another Rush fabrication). But Eli's already on Destiny's bridge wallowing in it and checking it all out, so the pooch has been screwed, so to speak.

[morbosfist]

That "structure" was created before even stable hydrogen atoms formed and fills the entire universe. Whatever Destiny is looking for, isn't going to be made out of matter and "findable" because it would be EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. It would be akin to the speculatively ambiguous Faith Planet "aliens/supreme beings".Just because it isn't solid doesn't mean it can't be found. He's not talking about "structure" as in a physical construct, but as in a pattern that can be devised.


I was referring the "reveal" being a "let down" after all the "build up". The "check" that Mallozzi wrote, "bounced".Truly a matter of opinion.

[Skiznot]

The CMB contains small thermal variations, generated by quantum fluctuations of matter in a very tiny space, expanded to universe sized proportions by inflation. The writers' idea that it may represent intelligence is pure, unadulterated fantasy since the photons that are the CMB are visible only because the universe cooled enough for stable atoms of hydrogen to form. There is NOTHING for Destiny to find. It's just a "snapshot" that shows all the intelligence of quantum brownian motion.

Like Brannon and Braga's Future Guy on Enterprise, or RDM's Cylons who "Had A Plan" for three seasons, Mallozzi's writers talked the talk, but ultimately couldn't walk the walk. We're just gonna get a lot more speculative Faith Planet aliens ambiguous bullsh!t, more "I miss my mommy" stones stores, and more irrational and inexplicable "evil Lucian Alliance dudes allowed to roam free in order to create dramatic tension". I suspect SyFy is gonna abort season 3.

I'm sorry you don't like SGU, I quite like it. Good sci-fi from episode 1 for me. The adventure of living in space and exploring is what I love about science fiction but that doesn't have to be true for everyone.

I don't think the writers were saying the CMB represents intelligence but I'd have to watch it again. But even so they are talking about underlying structure that humans at our current tech level cant even see. Just like the majority of the universe is Dark matter and Dark Energy and we don't know what that is so they could be talking about correlations between things we haven't begun to understand. My main point was, they don't seem to be talking about going "to" the CMB as it's not any kind of place; just like there's no "center" to the universe. He seemed to say that Destiny was gathering data throughout the universe. Perhaps the gate on Destiny was there so Ancients could periodically gate in and collect the newest data. I clearly don't know as much as you and maybe it's just that, that keeps my suspension of disbelief in tact. I remember that feeling in the new Star Trek movie when they just re-defined Supernova and Black hole to fit their story. The funny thing is if Trek hadn't inspired me to learn more about Astronomy then I probably wouldn't have known they were just making stuff up in Abrams movie.

I'm actually in the camp that didn't need Destiny to have any fancy mission other than networking and getting a foot hold in far distant galaxies for exploration. Their exploration and speculation of what is out there is compelling enough for me.

[Cylykon]

I clearly don't know as much as you and maybe it's just that, that keeps my suspension of disbelief in tact. I remember that feeling in the new Star Trek movie when they just re-defined Supernova and Black hole to fit their story. The funny thing is if Trek hadn't inspired me to learn more about Astronomy then I probably wouldn't have known they were just making stuff up in Abrams movie.

That's exactly the problem I have with SGU. It doesn't mean that I hate SGU. Rather, I'm just not digging the poor science. It really screws the pooch.

[Coronach]

That's exactly the problem I have with SGU. It doesn't mean that I hate SGU. Rather, I'm just not digging the poor science. It really screws the pooch.

Well this is a legitimate problem to have, I suppose, but an aspect of "poor science" is seen in literally anything that could be classified as science fiction anyways, including SG1 and SGA. I think that's where the "fiction" part comes in.

[Cylykon]

Just because it isn't solid doesn't mean it can't be found.

Ok, I'll bite. Just what exactly could "it" be that is rooted in actual science? Yeah, that's what I thought.

[morbosfist]

Ok, I'll bite. Just what exactly could "it" be that is rooted in actual science? Yeah, that's what I thought.Actual science can't explain it. Rush makes that point in the episode. It's beyond us. So you just go with it. The poor science can be upsetting, I get that, but if you're going to harp on this, all of science fiction must really irritate you.

[Eternal Density]

Maybe it means that 'operating instructions' for the universe are encoded into the high level structure of it.
Remember, Rush wasn't on about discovering who/what created the universe, but rather he was hoping to learn how the universe works to the point of being able to change/control it, somehow. What he's looking for is going far FAR beyond "sufficiently advanced technology" - I don't think Rush wants to merely play God. Maybe the Lucian Alliance stories about Destiny's mission we learned from Ginn aren't far off the mark.

[Cylykon]

Well this is a legitimate problem to have, I suppose, but an aspect of "poor science" is seen in literally anything that could be classified as science fiction anyways, including SG1 and SGA. I think that's where the "fiction" part comes in.

I think you've failed to realize that it's not even "science fiction" if the "science" part is merely fantasy.

[Cylykon]

Actual science can't explain it. Rush makes that point in the episode. It's beyond us. So you just go with it. The poor science can be upsetting, I get that, but if you're going to harp on this, all of science fiction must really irritate you.

That makes no sense, but whatever. I'm quite sure it does to you.

[morbosfist]

I think you've failed to realize that it's not even "science fiction" if the "science" part is merely fantasy.The background radiation is fantasy? Don't think so. The only fantasy is this deeper meaning, which they handwave on the spot as beyond our ability to detect. That's why it's science fiction.


That makes no sense, but whatever. I'm quite sure it does to you.It's not that difficult a concept to understand. MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

[Cylykon]

Maybe it means that 'operating instructions' for the universe are encoded into the high level structure of it.
Remember, Rush wasn't on about discovering who/what created the universe, but rather he was hoping to learn how the universe works to the point of being able to change/control it, somehow. What he's looking for is going far FAR beyond "sufficiently advanced technology" - I don't think Rush wants to merely play God. Maybe the Lucian Alliance stories about Destiny's mission we learned from Ginn aren't far off the mark.

Ok, like the writers, you're unclear on the concept of what the CMB is. I get it.

[Coronach]

I think you've failed to realize that it's not even "science fiction" if the "science" part is merely fantasy.

Science fiction has done this before and continues to do it. It isn't my fault that you're either a) new the genre or b) selectively forgetting the countless times this has happened in past science fiction.

As well, "fiction" vs "fantasy"....then call it "science fantasy" for all I care. Semantics is stupid, and I won't engage in such a silly argument.

[PG15]

That "structure" was created before even stable hydrogen atoms formed and fills the entire universe. Whatever Destiny is looking for, isn't going to be made out of matter and "findable" because it would be EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. It would be akin to the speculatively ambiguous Faith Planet "aliens/supreme beings".

Indeed. It's pretty logical then that Destiny is going about her mission by travelling across the Universe, no? I mean, if the evidence for the structure is everywhere, then travelling across it as much as possible is as good a method as any to trying to understand it.

[Cylykon]

The background radiation is fantasy? Don't think so. The only fantasy is this deeper meaning, which they handwave on the spot as beyond our ability to detect. That's why it's science fiction.

It's not that difficult a concept to understand. MST3K Mantra (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra).

No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.

[morbosfist]

No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.For heaven's sake...

Look, I'll try to make this simple. In the real world, we do not have the following: intergalactic spaceships, faster-than-light propulsion, subspace communication, body-swapping stones, teleportation, mind-controlling parasites with a god complex, energy beings, psychic powers, devices that make wormholes, and the list goes on ad infinitum. So, in this series with all those things and more, you are offended by this and nothing else? Real science would never allow half of this as we understand it. Yes, the whole deeper meaning doesn't jive with current science. It's not supposed to. It's science fiction. That is the point. Get it? It uses science but also takes liberties with it to tell a story. You're complaining about the core tenant of all science fiction.

[Cylykon]

Science fiction has done this before and continues to do it. It isn't my fault that you're either a) new the genre or b) selectively forgetting the countless times this has happened in past science fiction.

As well, "fiction" vs "fantasy"....then call it "science fantasy" for all I care. Semantics is stupid, and I won't engage in such a silly argument.

Whatever. I clearly made my argument as "science" vs "fantasy".

[Eternal Density]

Ok, like the writers, you're unclear on the concept of what the CMB is. I get it.I was talking about Stargate Universe actually, not what the CMB really is.
Now please stop derailing the thread.
No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.We know the difference! Seriously, have you forgotten that this is a science fiction show? It's all about borrowing ideas from science (or in this case, one model of how the universe might work) and spinning it off into an entertaining idea.

Whatever. I clearly made my argument as "science" vs "fantasy".There's science and there's fantasy. But I'm not seeing a "vs" anywhere. We know that SGU isn't real, so stop arguing about nothing!

Why so serious?

[Cylykon]

For heaven's sake... Real science would never allow half of this as we understand it.

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!

[Cylykon]

(or in this case, one model of how the universe might work)

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

[Eternal Density]

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!How is making traversable wormholes at the press of a button any less a blatant misrepresentation of physics?
I think the only difference here is that wormholes are commonly used this way in sci-fi, while the CMB is not. To me, both are fair game for sci-fi to use in whatever manner they please.
Are you really so worried that people who watch SGU will think "I know that stuff about stargates and FTL travel and instantaneous mindswapping from the other side of the universe is just made up, but what they said about the CMB has to be true." ?

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.*sigh*
The writers don't think there's a pattern there that implies an intelligence. They are exploring the question of "what if there was a pattern, in our fictional world, and what would that imply and how could it get there?"

And of course I know what quantum means, duh! I read most of the quantum physics related books at my local library during highschool, for fun, and studied the principles behind various designs of quantum computers at university. (Sorry but your tone of superiority is making me snarky.)

[PG15]

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

Did you miss the part where Rush said that those patterns were undetectable using our instruments? We're not talking about the Ancients pulling up COBE's, WMAP's, and Planck's CMB maps and saying there are messages in those green, blue, and red blobs, we're saying the Ancients pulled up their SuperMega CMB Investigator 6500 data and found that, hey, there's structure there finer than what we found using SuperMega CMB Investigator 6400, which was probably a gazillion times more powerful than Planck.

Hey, I had two semesters of quantum too - actually, one semester I took 2 quantum courses (that basically talked about the same thing) at the same time, just for fun. I know what quantum fluctuations are, but that's completely beside the point. Our data and models say that the density distributions are caused by quantum fluctuations - the Ancients' evidently told a different story, and considering how much more advanced they are, I think it's totally possible for their instruments to find stuff that ours can't.

[morbosfist]

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!Look, it comes down to a very simple point: are you willing to suspend your disbelief and go with it? You clearly aren't, and thus we aren't going to go anywhere. You see this use of CMB and it bothers you because, as you see it, they've represented it wrong (which, incidentally, they have not done as you think they have). So long as this is true, it's a stalemate.

Incidentally:


Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.They never mention temperature differences. Rush only mentions that this pattern is beyond the ability of human science to detect. He never says specifically where it's buried, just that it is. This is a cue to the viewer. It means "yeah, it's not real science, go with it." Nothing about Rush's statement specifically violates any known aspect of CMB.

[Eternal Density]

Incidentally:

They never mention temperature differences. Rush only mentions that this pattern is beyond the ability of human science to detect. He never says specifically where it's buried, just that it is. This is a cue to the viewer. It means "yeah, it's not real science, go with it." Nothing about Rush's statement specifically violates any known aspect of CMB.Good point, all this discussion about temperatures is a Red Herring.

[lumacman]

Cylykon,

What this really sounds like to me is agression towards what could be interperated as the writers bringing in a religious element to the show.

if there is structure or a pattern, that implies order. as we understand it order does not rise from chaos. order turns to chaos over time. if there is order from the very start of the universe, then one must ask the question what provided that order?

at its heart this is good and well thought out science fiction. the whole point of science fiction is to evaluate the nature of humanity aginst some futureistic story that bends what we define as reality.

right now we look at this raditaion and see nothing but chaos and randomness. thats science fact. (for now, a good and real scientist is always seeking and questioning everything.) the fiction is the acients found something we currently cant. they built lots of ships to learn more about it somehow. we are now along for the ride, and we watch a story unfold with people like us stuck in this fictional world that is just slightly off from what we know to be science fact. humanity, faith, religion, morals, ethics, all of that well play in good science fiction because, again the point of it is to take a look at what we are in the midst of a story.

[Cylykon]

Did you miss the part where Rush said that those patterns were undetectable using our instruments? We're not talking about the Ancients pulling up COBE's, WMAP's, and Planck's CMB maps and saying there are messages in those green, blue, and red blobs, we're saying the Ancients pulled up their SuperMega CMB Investigator 6500 data and found that, hey, there's structure there finer than what we found using SuperMega CMB Investigator 6400, which was probably a gazillion times more powerful than Planck.

Hey, I had two semesters of quantum too - actually, one semester I took 2 quantum courses (that basically talked about the same thing) at the same time, just for fun. I know what quantum fluctuations are, but that's completely beside the point. Our data and models say that the density distributions are caused by quantum fluctuations - the Ancients' evidently told a different story, and considering how much more advanced they are, I think it's totally possible for their instruments to find stuff that ours can't.

Yeah, except that there aren't any actual quantum structures in the CMB, even if the Ancients were looking for it. That's because the energy of the CMB photons represent quantum fluctuations 400,000 years after the fact! It's a very, very, very blurry "picture" of the bubbles in God's energy drink.

Now, it might be that the Ancients were looking for an explanation of what's called the "axis of evil" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation#Low_multipoles_and_other_anomalies), but flying a starship around the local group for a million years chasing seeder ships is only going to allow the "picture" to get blurrier and harder to investigate.

[Eternal Density]

Maybe, just maybe, it'll make more sense if we watch more episodes and learn more about it. :P

[rlr149]

When they say the acients detected evidence of "Structure" in the background noise/radiation that could mean two different things to me.

A) A physical structure, something with a physical destination (planet, ship, etc)
or
B) Structure could be something more non-physical, such as a signal that they need to get much closer to in order to analyze the "structure" of the signal/message.

I am trying to understand better what the writers are hinting at.

Does anyone else have a better understanding the new mission?
:jack_new_anime18:its looking for a big honkin magnet.

[PG15]

Yeah, except that there aren't any actual quantum structures in the CMB, even if the Ancients were looking for it. That's because the energy of the CMB photons represent quantum fluctuations 400,000 years after the fact! It's a very, very, very blurry "picture" of the bubbles in God's energy drink.


But a picture nonetheless, and a picture that our technology is more and more capable at analyzing. It stands to reason then that the Ancients can analyze it even better, and evidently they found something we haven't. Again, perfectly plausible.

[eonflux]

What a load of drama for something SGU. Im not going to pretend i took any classes in Quantum physics. But why do you presume that what you learned is 100% correct.

Just the other day was looking at the national geographic channel. It was a show about the formation of galaxies. And i was astounded by the fact that the more they learned the more questions they had. Some stuff even contradicts what ppl wrote 10 years ago in papers.

[morbosfist]

Just the other day was looking at the national geographic channel. It was a show about the formation of galaxies. And i was astounded by the fact that the more they learned the more questions they had. Some stuff even contradicts what ppl wrote 10 years ago in papers.Welcome to science.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

:jack_new_anime18:its looking for a big honkin magnet.

Yes. It's always the magnets! This is what I'm going with.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Pond Hopper,


Because you can't study it from Earth, it's at the very edge of the universe.

Imagine a deflated balloon, that's the universe at the time of the big bang. Now imagine the balloon inflating, that's the universe expanding afterwards, the structure present at the time of the big bang would move away as the universe expands.

The Universe has no edge and no center. Everywhere is the edge and everywhere is the center. The best analogy (that I just used in another thread) is a balloon being inflated where the surface of the balloon is the observable universe. It keeps getting bigger but as you fly through it you never reach the "edge".

[Quallen]

That's exactly the problem I have with SGU. It doesn't mean that I hate SGU. Rather, I'm just not digging the poor science. It really screws the pooch.

Lets recap... in the stargate universe fictional magical elements (Naquada), time travel, "quantum mirrors" that allow travel between universes, and ZPMs are perfectly fine but the idea that a part of the CMB couldn't be caused or explained by just quantum fluctuations and must have been caused by some external influence is too much to handle?

To steal a phrase, its only ugly because its new and you don't like it.

I'll edit in more when I rewatch the episode

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Lets recap... in the stargate universe fictional magical elements (Naquada), time travel, "quantum mirrors" that allow travel between universes, and ZPMs are perfectly fine but the idea that a part of the CMB couldn't be caused or explained by just quantum fluctuations and must have been caused by some external influence is too much to handle?
...
:lol:

[Stormtrooper]

So by understanding and manipulating such "structure" in the cosmic background radiation, it's possible to change reality itself? Is that what the writers are suggesting? Well, it would certainly explain why Rush is so obsessed with Destiny and its mission. Maybe the Obelisk Builders have already figured out the puzzle, which is why they can create planets and solar systems out of thin air.

Also, is this info still relevant to the ascended Alterans? I mean, had the Ori known about it, they would have definitely tweaked the code in order to create a whole universe of worshipers, etc.

[garhkal]

The whole concept of what was said is mind-boggling to me. What are they saying that the universe is constructed? Well maybe... maybe the universe is just a drop of something bigger. Maybe we are bacteria for something else who knows.

Or as i said, we are the marbels in some aliens bag of toys... like at the end of MiB...



But creating ships that are going to take millions of years to get to place which in a millions years you could reach easier is just ludacris. Why not wait till you get better tech or evolve to a state where time/space mathers little. What do you think we will become if we don't manage to blow our selfs up?

To me it feels like a Rush fabrication because i see no logic in the Ancients undertaking such an expedition. Why ping-pong all over the galaxy instead of putting the **** on auto-pilot only to stop to refuel and take the shortest route.

Maybe it is cause to find out the more info, it needs to go where it is at? As to the why wait.. well do we even know they had ideas on ascention back then?


if there is structure or a pattern, that implies order. as we understand it order does not rise from chaos. order turns to chaos over time. if there is order from the very start of the universe, then one must ask the question what provided that order?


the Q!


Maybe the Obelisk Builders have already figured out the puzzle, which is why they can create planets and solar systems out of thin air.



Or like someone else said, they were the ones who made it initially and are now observing us, helping us to their level.

[Skiznot]

I think what it means is the Higgs Bosons are quantumly entangled with the dark energy creating a flux capacitance field and tugging at the chronotons removing the heisenberg unceartanty principle in the presence of hawking radiation all along Occams razor.

Actually I feel ya Cylycon. Wouldn't it be cool if all Syfy did was show newly produced sci-fi running along the whole sprectrum from light escapist stuff to the hard ultra researched stuff we only get in books. Then there would be something for everyone and ratings wouldn't matter and we would all learn more and imagine greater. Thanks for all the cosmology lessons though, I always do appreciate it. Even when sci-fi gets things wrong it becomes an opportunity to learn more.

[Skiznot]

Hey, I know there's no edge if the baloon surface is a 2-d universe so then the edge would be to find the third dimension and jump off the baloon. You don't want to go inside the baloon cause you might pop the universe and find the underlying structure is just drunken air. Just having fun. I so want to start my life over and go to school for astrophysics though.

[Eternal Density]

I think what it means is the Higgs Bosons are quantumly entangled with the dark energy creating a flux capacitance field and tugging at the chronotons removing the heisenberg unceartanty principle in the presence of hawking radiation all along Occams razor.And Destiny's mission is to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.

[garhkal]

Na.. its going to change out the dylithiym crystals in its warp core

[zarian]

Now if only they used the CvB instead of the CMB it would make a little more sense (well sense in scifi terms...). Especially if this is supposed to be a "structure" built into the fabric of reality itself.

[spaceship]

The reason why this is so unbelievable is that Destiny is said to be traversing the universe looking for meaning in noise! Maybe all the crew members should start wearing tin foil hats so that they can get better reception!

[Cylykon]

The writers don't think there's a pattern there that implies an intelligence. They are exploring the question of "what if there was a pattern, in our fictional world, and what would that imply and how could it get there?"

It would imply that the Ancients found a way to violate Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle, since the thermal variations in the CMB, caused by quantum fluctuations in the very, very early universe, arise from said principle. The CMB is like a thermal picture of a burp, a week after you expelled it... i'm not sure that a pattern discovered in that picture would tell you anything about how it got there. Or that you could even tell it from a thermal picture of a week old fart!

[morbosfist]

It would imply that the Ancients found a way to violate Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle, since the thermal variations in the CMB, caused by quantum fluctuations in the very, very early universe, arise from said principle. The CMB is like a thermal picture of a burp, a week after you expelled it... i'm not sure that a pattern discovered in that picture would tell you anything about how it got there. Or that you could even tell it from a thermal picture of a week old fart!As I've said before, you're stuck on the idea that the pattern is in the thermal variations, but Rush never mentions that. You're mad about a mistake that never happened.

[Cylykon]

Good point, all this discussion about temperatures is a Red Herring.

The CMB is only photons that exhibit a thermal (energy) difference across the sky. The only patterns to be found are polarization, a.k.a. the axis of evil. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon) So what might these photonic properties be that we can't measure, but the Ancients could?

[morbosfist]

The CMB is only photons that exhibit a thermal (energy) difference across the sky. The only patterns to be found are polarization, a.k.a. the axis of evil. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon) So what might these photonic properties be that we can't measure, but the Ancients could?That's the entire point, don't you see? We can't measure them, they could. In this universe, there is some sort of undetectable pattern beneath the observable properties of CMBR that the Ancients discovered, and that is the basis behind this development in the plot. That's what makes it science fiction.

[Cylykon]

That's the entire point, don't you see? We can't measure them, they could. In this universe, there is some sort of undetectable pattern beneath the observable properties of CMBR that the Ancients discovered, and that is the basis behind this development in the plot. That's what makes it science fiction.

My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in. Did you even read the Wikipedia page? Do you understand what a photon is? Apparently, the writers don't either. Might as well have the Blueberries hiding just inside the event horizon of a black hole that Destiny stops near. They could just pop out and surprise our unlucky but intrepid passengers.

[KEK]

My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in. Did you even read the Wikipedia page? Do you understand what a photon is? Apparently, the writers don't either. Might as well have the Blueberries hiding just inside the event horizon of a black hole that Destiny stops near. They could just pop out and surprise our unlucky but intrepid passengers.

How can you know for sure?

[morbosfist]

My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in. Did you even read the Wikipedia page? Do you understand what a photon is? Apparently, the writers don't either. Might as well have the Blueberries hiding just inside the event horizon of a black hole that Destiny stops near. They could just pop out and surprise our unlucky but intrepid passengers.Yes, it is made up science. Just like devices that generate wormholes and teleporters and healing energy and a thousand other things. As KEK points out, how can you know for sure this isn't possible? That's science fiction. It's going beyond what science has discovered and speculating on the consequences if we found something more.

[Coronach]

Yes, it is made up science. Just like devices that generate wormholes and teleporters and healing energy and a thousand other things. As KEK points out, how can you know for sure this isn't possible? That's science fiction. It's going beyond what science has discovered and speculating on the consequences if we found something more.

No. WAY. Made up science? As in fictional science? Dare I say....science fiction?! Hogswallop, I say!

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I think one of the reasons Rush's revelation bothers me was the way he explained it. It just doesn't seem logical. It could just be a flaw in Rush's way of saying it but it sounds like he was explaining that nature itself is not a natural phenomenon.

I'm almost not even sure if it would be possible to know that. If the universe was created by an intelligent design how could any inhabitants of the universe know what is what occurs in nature and what doesn't if the very laws of nature themselves somehow are artificial creations. All we would know is what occurs and what doesn't, how would we know that something must have artificially created it?

[morbosfist]

No. WAY. Made up science? As in fictional science? Dare I say....science fiction?! Hogswallop, I say!Get the pitchforks and torches! This blasphemy cannot go unpunished.

:docianime15:


I think one of the reasons Rush's revelation bothers me was the way he explained it. It just doesn't seem logical. It could just be a flaw in Rush's way of saying it but it sounds like he was explaining that nature itself is not a natural phenomenon.

I'm almost not even sure if it would be possible to know that. If the universe was created by an intelligent design how could any inhabitants of the universe know what is what occurs in nature and what doesn't if the very laws of nature themselves somehow are artificial creations. All we would know is what occurs and what doesn't, how would we know that something must have artificially created it?He's saying the universe is not natural, not the physical laws therein. It's kind of like growing fungus in a petri dish. Sure, you put it there, but other things determine how it grows.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

But those physical laws wouldn't exist without the universe they apply to. There would just be nothing.

[morbosfist]

But those physical laws wouldn't exist without the universe. There would just be nothing.Which does beg the question: if someone or something started this universe, did its physical laws apply to them too?

[Tajis]

This has went on for four pages? The topic is derailed. One person is arguing basically that he/she lacks, despite all other intelligence and mental capability demonstrated, any sort of capacity to suspend disbelief for forty or so minutes. These debates never lead anywhere productive and result in certain personalities entrenching themselves and others in a pointless argument that has no potential to go anywhere. If an explanation of the science is required, here goes nothing...

The Furlings killed Colonel Mustard, in the Gateroom, with poisoned blue jello.. Daniel stole the heart from the Emerald City so he could be braver and fight his eternal allergies. A box of tissue with through the gate and the Ori found it to be good. Adria caught Daniel's cold from it, sneezed, and blew out her orange contact lenses. This caused all sorts of cosmic chaos, resulting in Destiny needing to guzzle down a twelve pack of Sunkist. Somewhere in here is an explanation, I'm quite sure of it. Take or pick as you please.

Moving on, I feel it is an interesting turn of events. Rush was vague (either through ignorance or intention) and it brings the question of what the Ancients viewed that had them interested enough or worried enough to start the Destiny mission. The amount of planning required to launch the mission (sending an entire ship instead of something like a probe) is mind boggling. I look forward to further explanations in future episodes.

[Nth Chevron]

The Furlings killed Colonel Mustard, in the Gateroom, with poisoned blue jello.. Daniel stole the heart from the Emerald City so he could be braver and fight his eternal allergies. A box of tissue with through the gate and the Ori found it to be good. Adria caught Daniel's cold from it, sneezed, and blew out her orange contact lenses. This caused all sorts of cosmic chaos, resulting in Destiny needing to guzzle down a twelve pack of Sunkist. Somewhere in here is an explanation, I'm quite sure of it. Take or pick as you please.

^This wins the thread^

Please pass whatever illicit substance you were partaking of when you wrote this as it sounds absolutely fantastic :D

N.C

[Selene1212]

The reason why this is so unbelievable is that Destiny is said to be traversing the universe looking for meaning in noise! Maybe all the crew members should start wearing tin foil hats so that they can get better reception!Kind of funny and ironic that Fringe was about audio patterns last night. Different, but interesting.

[rsanchez]

You guys are going about it all wrong looking at this through the lens of hard science. Last I checked, this is science fiction, so the writers are allowed to liberally change science as they see fit for the storyline.

Also, any real stargate fan knows that the edge of the Universe was just discovered a few years ago, so apparently, there is a destination that Destiny can reach if it travels far enough. They might even be extending the consciousness superhighway to get there (they being ascended beings).

[thekillman]

My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in. Did you even read the Wikipedia page? Do you understand what a photon is? Apparently, the writers don't either. Might as well have the Blueberries hiding just inside the event horizon of a black hole that Destiny stops near. They could just pop out and surprise our unlucky but intrepid passengers.

because we don't have massive sensors detecting the background radiation across the entire spectrum. nor do we have the supercomputers to analyze and pick up patterns

[langdonboom]

Cylykon,

What this really sounds like to me is agression towards what could be interperated as the writers bringing in a religious element to the show.

if there is structure or a pattern, that implies order. as we understand it order does not rise from chaos. order turns to chaos over time. if there is order from the very start of the universe, then one must ask the question what provided that order?

at its heart this is good and well thought out science fiction. the whole point of science fiction is to evaluate the nature of humanity aginst some futureistic story that bends what we define as reality.

right now we look at this raditaion and see nothing but chaos and randomness. thats science fact. (for now, a good and real scientist is always seeking and questioning everything.) the fiction is the acients found something we currently cant. they built lots of ships to learn more about it somehow. we are now along for the ride, and we watch a story unfold with people like us stuck in this fictional world that is just slightly off from what we know to be science fact. humanity, faith, religion, morals, ethics, all of that well play in good science fiction because, again the point of it is to take a look at what we are in the midst of a story.

This is it exactly!

Any wiff of EXPLANATION to the patterns we see in the universe - that is, a search for MEANING apart from observation and prediction of patterns - gets all the scientific fundamentalists' panties in a bunch.

But that is all this is -- saying, hey, maybe there's a purpose to our lives, a reason for being.

This is why there were so many haters of the end of BSG, and why there's so much heat behind "bad science" when really this is not applicable at all.

But I'm a big believer in cultivating our non-rational capacities - which isn't to say we become religious zelots - not at all, and I'm as disbelieving in the standard religions as any scientific fundamentalist -- BUT I am also not so willfully ignorant to think that there is nothing beyond our rational ability to understand and logically process. THIS is why science fiction is FUN!

But if you are identifying with ONLY that logical/rational side of our natures you will fundamentally reject any attempts to (to paraphrase Narim) "fill in with your heart what your brain cannot understand."

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...
The Furlings killed Colonel Mustard, in the Gateroom, with poisoned blue jello.. ..
Full. Of. Win.

[blackluster]

Personally I never really saw Rush's explanation as suggesting that there was intelligence in the creation of the universe. It just seemed like a fascinating self standing 'what if' engineering question. Assuming that there was some quantifiable pattern or structure out of something meant to be as chaotic as the big bang and if you could further fit a function to that pattern, in a way it would almost represent something like the impulse response of the entire universe.

From a systems standpoint, one might then be able to determine an 'input' that would produce any desired 'output', as in it would let you perfectly predict the outcome of every action over the entirety of the universe. To me this seems to match what Rush was talking about. It's power akin to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy MkII, being able to induce any desired outcome.

I guess the grandness of the quest is to redefine what the meaning of 'natural' is, perhaps even to suggest that there is no such thing as chaos and that symmetry and definable patterns and structure exists in absolutely everything, even the birth of the universe itself.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Personally I never really saw Rush's explanation as suggesting that there was intelligence in the creation of the universe. It just seemed like a fascinating self standing 'what if' engineering question. Assuming that there was some quantifiable pattern or structure out of something meant to be as chaotic as the big bang and if you could further fit a function to that pattern, in a way it would almost represent something like the impulse response of the entire universe.

From a systems standpoint, one might then be able to determine an 'input' that would produce any desired 'output', as in it would let you perfectly predict the outcome of every action over the entirety of the universe. To me this seems to match what Rush was talking about. It's power akin to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy MkII, being able to induce any desired outcome.

I guess the grandness of the quest is to redefine what the meaning of 'natural' is, perhaps even to suggest that there is no such thing as chaos and that symmetry and definable patterns and structure exists in absolutely everything, even the birth of the universe itself.

Young mentions the structure being a code or a message. Rush explicitly flat out suggests the prospect of an "intelligence from the beginning of time" and "a level of order present at the very beginning of space-time that goes beyond anything we've ever seen." Those were his exact words.

[James71]

Frankly, I don't think that this "Mission" is very exciting at all.
It is certainly not going to be enough to excite new people into watching the show.

The end goal is so vague that even most of the crew probably wouldn't care.

BSG had a reasonable goal. Find Earth.
This goal is sort of iffy in terms of the end reward.

I am an SGU fan. But this new mission about finding "structure" in the cosmic background radiation is just sort of lame.

[Cylykon]

How can you know for sure?

Because of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. The act of measuring one magnitude of a particle, be it its mass, its velocity, or its position, causes the other magnitudes to blur. This is not due to imprecise measurements. Our technology is advanced enough to hypothetically yield correct measurements. The blurring of these magnitudes is a fundamental property of nature! The very nature of the universe keeps everyone from peeking behind the curtains... even the Ancients!

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I think the idea is the Ancients were advanced enough to have someone figured out a way to get around that problem.

You know, in the Stargate Universe at least, they've been saying that much of our current understanding of astrophysics is wrong from almost the very beginning of the show. The Tollan once called quantum mechanics a misconception.

[Quallen]

I am an SGU fan. But this new mission about finding "structure" in the cosmic background radiation is just sort of lame.

The notion that at the moment of creation of our universe, the beginning of time so to speak, there was already something there doesn't tickle you at all? It gives me goosebumps... Let your imagination run with it =)

[AVFan]

This has went on for four pages? The topic is derailed. One person is arguing basically that he/she lacks, despite all other intelligence and mental capability demonstrated, any sort of capacity to suspend disbelief for forty or so minutes. These debates never lead anywhere productive and result in certain personalities entrenching themselves and others in a pointless argument that has no potential to go anywhere. If an explanation of the science is required, here goes nothing...

The Furlings killed Colonel Mustard, in the Gateroom, with poisoned blue jello.. Daniel stole the heart from the Emerald City so he could be braver and fight his eternal allergies. A box of tissue with through the gate and the Ori found it to be good. Adria caught Daniel's cold from it, sneezed, and blew out her orange contact lenses. This caused all sorts of cosmic chaos, resulting in Destiny needing to guzzle down a twelve pack of Sunkist. Somewhere in here is an explanation, I'm quite sure of it. Take or pick as you please.


One post full of epic win. Good show sir! Green to you. :D



Please pass whatever illicit substance you were partaking of when you wrote this as it sounds absolutely fantastic :D
:D

[morbosfist]

Because of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. The act of measuring one magnitude of a particle, be it its mass, its velocity, or its position, causes the other magnitudes to blur. This is not due to imprecise measurements. Our technology is advanced enough to hypothetically yield correct measurements. The blurring of these magnitudes is a fundamental property of nature! The very nature of the universe keeps everyone from peeking behind the curtains... even the Ancients!Unless they learned to cheat that, as with Star Trek's ever-so-wonderful Heisenburg compensators.

[Quallen]

Please pass whatever illicit substance you were partaking of when you wrote this as it sounds absolutely fantastic :D

I think Tajis has clearly learned how to channel the ghost of philip k. dick :D

[tinerin]

Because of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle.

The Tollans called that a "misconception of elementary science" though!

[langdonboom]

Frankly, I don't think that this "Mission" is very exciting at all.
It is certainly not going to be enough to excite new people into watching the show.

The end goal is so vague that even most of the crew probably wouldn't care.

BSG had a reasonable goal. Find Earth.
This goal is sort of iffy in terms of the end reward.

I am an SGU fan. But this new mission about finding "structure" in the cosmic background radiation is just sort of lame.

I for one am THRILLED with this development. I mean THIS is real sci-fi to me. Jaw-dropping, "meaning of life", mysterious and spooky alien mind-blowing conceptual development "beyond our understanding".

The fact that this kind of mysterious feeling can be invoked in me by a weekly sci-fi serial is just astounding, and I am sorely disappointed in the imaginations of those of you who aren't getting into it! I haven't been this excited about Stargate maybe since Torment of Tantalus. But to each his own...

To me though -- what could be more compelling than asking -- what is life? who are we? what is the universe? Both in "real life" and in the amped-up world of science fiction. This beats cool ships and space battles any day (though I have a place in my heart for such things as well, of course!)

[cheezegr8r]

Frankly, I don't think that this "Mission" is very exciting at all.
It is certainly not going to be enough to excite new people into watching the show.

The end goal is so vague that even most of the crew probably wouldn't care.

BSG had a reasonable goal. Find Earth.
This goal is sort of iffy in terms of the end reward.

I am an SGU fan. But this new mission about finding "structure" in the cosmic background radiation is just sort of lame.

ok so if there is an intelligence that can orchestrate this "structure", THAT in it's self is a massive engineering feat. even more so that say sending a single starship across the universe. A being or a Race that could do something on the scale of the Universe would inevitabely be able to do things across dimensions, create life, planets, reverse time, construct on a galactic scale and have power sources that make galactic clusters look like candles.

I would have to lean toward exciting....

[erotavlas]

I think its kind of cool. Its exactly what everyone throughout the ages have always wondered about, what the universe is and why we are here. The ancients actually had the technology and level of knowledge to carry through with an investigation and try to figure it all out.

I bet the star gates will play a bigger role that just for traveling. Like maybe they will all be activated at once to conduct an experiment or try to probe the depths of space. They have been used before in SG1 to manipulate space and time so who knows...

[Cylykon]

Unless they learned to cheat that, as with Star Trek's ever-so-wonderful Heisenburg compensators.

The "Heienburg compensators" were a wink and a nod to actual physics. I got the joke. It was funny.

[garhkal]

It would imply that the Ancients found a way to violate Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle, since the thermal variations in the CMB, caused by quantum fluctuations in the very, very early universe, arise from said principle. The CMB is like a thermal picture of a burp, a week after you expelled it... i'm not sure that a pattern discovered in that picture would tell you anything about how it got there. Or that you could even tell it from a thermal picture of a week old fart!

Not that hard to do. Look at all they have created. Devices that link 2 worm holes. Devices that stop hyperspace travel on specific frequencies. Devices... et al.. THEIR level of science is way beyond ours. heck look at the Tolans. They knew more than us but were way behind the Ancients.


Because of the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. The act of measuring one magnitude of a particle, be it its mass, its velocity, or its position, causes the other magnitudes to blur. This is not due to imprecise measurements. Our technology is advanced enough to hypothetically yield correct measurements. The blurring of these magnitudes is a fundamental property of nature! The very nature of the universe keeps everyone from peeking behind the curtains... even the Ancients!

BUT you are thinking in OUR IRL physics. Compare that to even just the Tolan's phase shifters? Or their FTL messenging pods they wore on an arm? Or the Gates themselves... Our knowledge is flawed/lacking...


You know, in the Stargate Universe at least, they've been saying that much of our current understanding of astrophysics is wrong from almost the very beginning of the show. The Tollan once called quantum mechanics a misconception.

Thank you for the back up.

[skarwolf]

All this speculation and all I saw was a weasel spouting off whatever he could to avoid another beating.

Rush goes from hiding his knowledge from the one guy he can't stand to suddenly revealing everything and asking Young for help ?

Rofl.

He made up some bull****e to placate Young for the time being thats about it.

[su27k]

If the background radiation permeates the entire universe why do they have to send a ship out to investigate it? Why not just stay back on earth and do it in a lab? It all sounds rather difficult to believe.


I thought about this too, one possible answer is the ship can travel FTL. If you stay on earth, you can only observe the CMB inside your past light cone, which if I understand correctly doesn't cover the whole CMB since the universe is expanding faster than light. By using a FTL ship, you get to observe CMB photons that can never reach earth and thus get a better picture of the whole.



The CMB contains small thermal variations, generated by quantum fluctuations of matter in a very tiny space, expanded to universe sized proportions by inflation. The writers' idea that it may represent intelligence is pure, unadulterated fantasy since the photons that are the CMB are visible only because the universe cooled enough for stable atoms of hydrogen to form. There is NOTHING for Destiny to find. It's just a "snapshot" that shows all the intelligence of quantum brownian motion.


If you have read the wikipedia page closely, you know there IS structure in the CMB, it's not just random noise like you implied. A lot of information can be deduced from observation of CMB, and it's not inconceivable that an advanced civilization can detect some structure in CMB that we couldn't.



My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in.


Actually I think this is very good science, on par with good Sci-Fi books (for example, Contact by Carl Sagan, the book, not the movie), very rare in Sci-Fi tv. I hope you're not implying we have detected everything there is to detect in terms of CMB, since there is a satellite in L2 right now doing more observation on CMB.



What this really sounds like to me is agression towards what could be interperated as the writers bringing in a religious element to the show.


I sincerely hope this is NOT the writers' intention, if they want to pull another BSG on us, I would scream. It is true that they raised a profound question, but science is the only way to answer it, not religion.

[langdonboom]

I sincerely hope this is NOT the writers' intention, if they want to pull another BSG on us, I would scream. It is true that they raised a profound question, but science is the only way to answer it, not religion.

haha! This is exactly what I mean, the science fundamentalists will scream!

But let's remember two things -- one, attempting to invoke the non-rational doesn't equal mythic fantasy or tall tale, just realizing that not everything worth knowing about life is quantifiable.

two - doubt and openness (not automatic rejection nor any appeal to "only way"s) should be the basis of all inquiry, esoteric or scientific.

But this is why I loved the end of BSG -- its just those of us who have grown up addicted to the power and wonder of science and logical thinking who need to work-out those aspects of our lives that aren't left-brained and rational... And learn to accept that we have a connection to life that cannot be seen through a microscope or objectified.

Its a tall order for any work of art to attempt to tackle, let alone a serialized sci-fi TV show, and BSG showed that it can be done (despite ruffling a lot of sci-fi feathers!) but there is a great chance that it will fail to live up to its ambitions, so I am hoping for the best from these writers and producers!

[garhkal]

All this speculation and all I saw was a weasel spouting off whatever he could to avoid another beating.

Rush goes from hiding his knowledge from the one guy he can't stand to suddenly revealing everything and asking Young for help ?

Rofl.

He made up some bull****e to placate Young for the time being thats about it.

Judging by how at the end of the ep, we see brody, volkar and co in chairs and Young asks about it, and iirc it was volkar who said ther was a Ton of info to sort through, i do not think Rush was lying on this one.

[Destiny11]

i can beleive rush asking bearing all because he had no other choice once his secret was discovered there wouldnt be much complaint from the others were he locked in his corridor with some chalk to work on getting them home.

My big question is, if destiny's mission was so important and exploring the fundamentals of the universe itself then surely the ancients would have kept track of it. As i understand it one of the ways to ascension is greater understanding of the universe and what better place to gain that understanding than on destiny with all the data it has collected (even 10,000 years ago i imagine it would have collected a great deal of data)

[morbosfist]

Ascension is a physiological process. Understanding doesn't really factor into it.

[langdonboom]

Ascension is a physiological process. Understanding doesn't really factor into it.

Actually, I think its both, or either -- the Monk at Kheb said "When the mind is opened, the spirit is freed and the body matters not", Oma Desala urged Daniel to "release his burden" and the ancient descendants in Epiphany were meditating in this same way, yet we also were introduced to the Ascension machine in Atlantis and Khalek in SG-1 so I think its safe to say you can go inside-out or outside-in as far as the established Stargate mythology goes.

And as for what the ascended ancients think about the Destiny's mission -- wouldn't at least some of them at the highest level of ascension (as Daniel indicated in Abyss, there are levels within the ascended realm) already know ie have direct access to the knowledge of the meaning of the structure in the CMB? So perhaps the mission of Destiny is a moot point to them now?

[morbosfist]

The only reason Daniel could ascend is because Oma helped him along. No normal human could ever do it, no matter how smart or wise.

[langdonboom]

The only reason Daniel could ascend is because Oma helped him along. No normal human could ever do it, no matter how smart or wise.

And yet she was very insistent that there was a mental and spiritual component neccesary to doing it (perhaps just to avoid another Anubis situation) but there has been established that there is a path to doing it, even for humans -- it was written on the walls of Kheb. The Ancient descendants were presumably "normal humans" at one state of their development and had to evolve to the point where they could ascend unassisted, and this was not through technological means, so there is a grey area here.

[morbosfist]

And yet she was very insistent that there was a mental and spiritual component neccesary to doing it (perhaps just to avoid another Anubis situation) but there has been established that there is a path to doing it, even for humans -- it was written on the walls of Kheb. The Ancient descendants were presumably "normal humans" at one state of their development and had to evolve to the point where they could ascend unassisted, and this was not through technological means, so there is a grey area here.Sure, she insisted on that, but she proved herself to be a total liar when she ascended the entire population of Abydos on the spot to save them from Anubis. Not only that, she ascended Anubis. A normal human could know everything about the universe, but they'd still require help to ascend.

[Nth Chevron]

Only after Anubis went to Kheb and had an understanding of the mental and spiritual components, Oma said something along those lines in the season 8 diner, i doubt he could fool Oma by pretending remorse or hiding the fact he was a Goa'uld, so there has to be a third dimension to the Ascension process.

Atm, there are conflicting views on this, we have Oma and the monk preaching Ascension can be achieved by less advanced humans through spiritual means, then we have Mckay in 'Epiphanies' i think, telling us its a matter of evolution for the process to happen naturally, then we have the general consensus that lesser humans can only Ascend when an Ascended is helping them.

We also know 2 ways to be true, the third is up in the air, its either true and there are deeper or backdoors to Ascension we dont know for a fact, or its untrue, in which case the monk was being untruthful.

The only explanation i can see, is that with Oma being present at Kheb during SG-1's visit, the monk urging Daniel to open his mind could have been a test to see if humans had reached the level to be open minded, in which case it could be an Ascended beacon letting Oma know who is viable for Ascension and who isnt.

N.C

[morbosfist]

Only after Anubis went to Kheb and had an understanding of the mental and spiritual components, Oma said something along those lines in the season 8 diner, i doubt he could fool Oma by pretending remorse or hiding the fact he was a Goa'uld, so there has to be a third dimension to the Ascension process.He explicitly did fool Oma, though, that was the point. He knew what he was talking about, and if pure spirit was really necessary for ascension, Anubis would have failed on the spot. Oma likes to give that line when ascending people, but really it's just her way of weeding out the unworthy and it backfired horribly on her.


Atm, there are conflicting views on this, we have Oma and the monk preaching Ascension can be achieved by less advanced humans through spiritual means, then we have Mckay in 'Epiphanies' i think, telling us its a matter of evolution for the process to happen naturally, then we have the general consensus that lesser humans can only Ascend when an Ascended is helping them.The first is proven false in the show itself. Oma's whole shtick was that she was helping people to ascend. They weren't doing it on their own.


We also know 2 ways to be true, the third is up in the air, its either true and there are deeper or backdoors to Ascension we dont know for a fact, or its untrue, in which case the monk was being untruthful.More like he wasn't being completely truthful, and you have to remember this is an early episode. He was technically being honest, he just refused to mention the source behind it. That's part of what Daniel discovered.


The only explanation i can see, is that with Oma being present at Kheb during SG-1's visit, the monk urging Daniel to open his mind could have been a test to see if humans had reached the level to be open minded, in which case it could be an Ascended beacon letting Oma know who is viable for Ascension and who isnt.More that he was trying to show Daniel that the kid they were trying to protect was in better hands with Oma than them.

[Puddle-Jumper]

It not about getting to the destination fast, it's about being able to pick up the pieces along the way.

Wasn't that actually a tagline for SGU? Something like its not about the destination its about the journey?? iirc..

That seems to make the most sense, it would explain all the other aliens obsessions with Destiny, its the only place in the universe with the information needed to solve the puzzle, though the ship must have a destination in the literal sense

[morbosfist]

Wasn't that actually a tagline for SGU? Something like its not about the destination its about the journey?? iirc..

That seems to make the most sense, it would explain all the other aliens obsessions with Destiny, its the only place in the universe with the information needed to solve the puzzle, though the ship must have a destination in the literal senseActually, it's "If you control the destination, you control Destiny."

[captain Qball]

RUSH: You're wrong. It was never about going home. It's about getting us to where we're going.

This line seems to disagree with what people have been saying about traveling just to study the pattern through out the universe. To me it seems as though Rush seems to think there is a definite destination in mind, though I'm not quite sure how that fits in with the rest of what he said.

I also think the ascended ancients would now already have this knowledge/power. We've seen that they have control over things in the universe that we don't understand, a manipulation of the rules of physics. I think an understanding of this pattern that Rush is talking about would allow someone in the physical universe as they know it to have the same manipulation, though probably with more effort than an ascended ancient, as the human would need someway to "input" their changes into the universe.

[Gala]

They may or may not know about it... but I'd put my money on not simply because the MW is so far away from where they aren't going which I also believe is an actual destination. However I'm less convinced that there is like an actual building there to find.


For everyone saying the big reveal was a 'let down'.. well... we still don't know how the stargates along the way tie into it and I'm fairly sure they will!

[garhkal]

That line to me, lends more weight to there actually being a Physical place for said signal, rather than a 'coded message'

[rsanchez]

A normal human could know everything about the universe, but they'd still require help to ascend.
Actually, if a normal human knew everything about the Universe, presumably they would know how to modify their physiology to actually ascend without any help, like Rodney almost did in "Tao of Rodney", or Franklin (maybe) did after being in the chair on Destiny, or Anubis's clone was moments away from doing in "Prototype", or Adria did in "Dominion" (ok, those last two technically weren't humans, but they were just some physiological changes away from actually being human).

Remember, it was Anubis who told Daniel, "If you deserve to be here, you should be able to get here on your own." That could mean you evolve to the point of ascension, or that could mean you change the structure of your body to facilitate ascension in your current form.

[morbosfist]

True, but that's semantics really. You still need help to do it, just mechanical instead of from another Ancient.

[Eternal Density]

So Destiny has Hindenburg compensators? Oh the huge-manatee!

So, all this happened because Adria caught Daniel's cold? I think I know how she picked that up...

[goga]

My point is that it's made up science. There are no other properties of a photon to find undetectable patterns in. Did you even read the Wikipedia page? Do you understand what a photon is? Apparently, the writers don't either. Might as well have the Blueberries hiding just inside the event horizon of a black hole that Destiny stops near. They could just pop out and surprise our unlucky but intrepid passengers.

If you remember:

"Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today - but the core of science fiction, its essence has become crucial to our salvation if we are to be saved at all. " Isaac Asimov

Granted I haven't read all the posts that started this giant back and forth match but, why are you trying to prove to people who like the show that this show is not based on real science? Cut the crap, you watch the show, yet your arguing against it. Doesn't make sense. Science fiction inspires us and DOES NOT have to be real, it can be made up. You seem be very interested in this complicated physics stuff and that is great (discover something new :D), but why are you trying to demonstrate your knowledge to people on a sci-fi forum?

[cheezegr8r]

We might need the writers to reveal everything they planned if this doesn't get covered in Season 2.
I would really hate to see this cancelled after season 2 with all of these questions never answered. Just for plot closure for the fans, I hope they can answer some of these questions online.

well were only up to episode 9 in season 2. plenty of time for more detail later. I just hope they don't break the season up like they did the first one. bleh. had to wait till april to get my sgu fix.

[rsanchez]

This whole misunderstanding/pointless arguing can be cleared up if you really understand what the CMB is. It's not something from the very beginning of time. There are roughly 380,000-400,000 years from the moment of creation to the moment that the CMB formed. In the mean time, the Universe was mainly a hot plasma of hydrogen ions, with traces of helium and lithium. The hydrogen plasma absorbed and re-emitted photons, so in a sense the Universe was a fog, since photons could not get far without being absorbed. After 400,000 years, the plasma became cool enough for the formation of neutral hydrogen atoms, and photons were free to travel the Universe to be picked up by an antenna at Bell Labs billions of years later.

So, the point is there were 400,000 years of Universe before the CMB developed. Who knows, in that time something might have developed, maybe evolved. It's not the first time something seemingly lifeless was shown to be sentient. The sand in Air followed the crew back on the ship and caused all sorts of havoc. Yes, sand is very different from plasma, and it might just have been a random pattern that developed, or it might be that the plasma developed "a mind of its own".

The other point is I highly doubt this is a sign that there was something before that caused the Universe to come into existence, at least in the context of the show.

[morbosfist]

That is all true, but doesn't really affect the idea. Rush's point is that, at one time, the pattern was whole, so prior to the formation of the CMB, this pattern would have been whole. They detect it in the radiation because that's when the decay began. At the start, there was a pattern.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

We won't know if that is intended the case until more information is revealed (I haven't seen Malice yet so I don't know if any new info is in that ) but it's not exactly a stretch that people are jumping to the conclusion that the implication was that this is a question about something from the beginning of time. Rush's wording seems to pretty clearly suggest that at least he suspects that in fact could very well likely the case.

As far as made up science goes. Personally I think there is a line that is drawn before it becomes a problem. Unfortunately that line is not really a clear cut thing. Obviously all science fiction shows will make stuff up to get get to a certain degree. My standard for judging technobabble or nonsensical science is that if it doesn't stand up to a very basic understanding of a scientific idea then it becomes bothersome. I guess the problem is that what is considered "common knowledge" in science might differ from person to person. And obviously one has to make certain allowances for sci-fi. The thing is that will also differ from person to person too. I guess it depends partially on how one will be willing to suspend their scientific disbelief. And for me the significance of any scientific errors might well also depend on how important any flaws are to the story.

To use the last Star Trek movie as an example:

I can fairly easily accept that the technology from the 25th Century would be able to conceivably synthesize a substance to form an artificial black hole when heated or that a mining ship can drill to all the way to the core of a planet, even if those are both fairly silly ideas.

When it becomes a problem for me is when they try to tell me "a supernova threatens to destroy the galaxy." Even an elementary understanding of the simplified concept of a Supernova will tell you that isn't possible.

Spock being able to see Vulcan from Delta Vega with the naked eye is extremely stupid but not a real problem outside of nitpicking.

Spock being released by his captor onto Delta Vega for the expressed purpose of watching Vulcan from Delta Vega thereby allowed him to randomly meet Kirk is a problem.

In SGU's case, I don't really have a problem, strictly speaking, with the idea that the Alterans had the knowledge to gain a more sophisticated understanding of the Background Radiation and discovered it had properties that our current scientific understanding couldn't be aware of.

What bothers me is A) The implications of Rush's suggestion about it and Destiny's mission in a show like this and B) how exactly Destiny was supposed to accomplish this mission by just flying around the universe in a fairly straight line reaaaaallly far away while stopping next to stargates planted recently in front of it on it's journey.

If they are looking for coded messages from God or primordial plasma aliens or something which are embedded in something that is present thorugh the entirety of the universe, why did they need Destiny or it's long range trip? Unless new information explaining that is revealed (which is still very possibly to imagine) I'd count that as a lack of understanding of science that crosses the "problem" line for a sci-fi show.

[Tajis]

^This wins the thread^

Please pass whatever illicit substance you were partaking of when you wrote this as it sounds absolutely fantastic :D

N.C

What happens on Athos, stays on Athos. ^^



To use the last Star Trek movie as an example:

I can fairly easily accept that the technology from the 25th Century would be able to conceivably synthesize a substance to form an artificial black hole when heated or that a mining ship can drill to all the way to the core of a planet, even if those are both fairly silly ideas.

When it becomes a problem for me is when they try to tell me "a supernova threatens to destroy the galaxy." Even an elementary understanding of the simplified concept of a Supernova will tell you that isn't possible.

Spock being able to see Vulcan from Delta Vega with the naked eye is extremely stupid but not a real problem outside of nitpicking.

Spock being released by his captor onto Delta Vega for the expressed purpose of watching Vulcan from Delta Vega thereby allowed him to randomly meet Kirk is a problem.



It all boils down to if someone can overlook the flaws of a story and enjoy it overall despite those flaws. I think the challenge of any sort of producer is not to make a perfect show, but to make it endearing enough the viewers will choose to come back the next episode and revisit the characters. Perfection is one thing, entertainment is another. This was a lesson hard earned suffering through/watching/enjoying Enterprise. That's another story, however.

Has anyone on this thread seen the last episode of SGU? If so, what do you make of the "pattern" shown on Rush's laptop?

[morbosfist]

Has anyone on this thread seen the last episode of SGU? If so, what do you make of the "pattern" shown on Rush's laptop?It was shown better in "Malice". Looks like an X.