This is part of an extended discussion on a youtube comment video that is between myself, Nowhereman, Sundown, and Avrilrocks. The discussion started out originally as a Galactic Empire vs Federation fight, but it expanded. But anyone can join in the debate.
Their position is that Federation will win, and mine is that Galactic Empire easily wins.
First off, we have to establish what canon can be used for both sides. I will go with what both LucasFilms and Holocron considers canon for Star Wars, and what Paramount considers canon for Star Trek. I will state the official canon policies below.
STAR WARS:
In the Star wars side, canon is movies, books, shows, comics, reference books, and basically almost anything. There is a canon rating scale. If it is not contradicted by a higher rating canon source, it is canon.
This includes the movies, the novelizations of said movies, reference books like the Incredible Cross Sections (which were commissioned by Lucas himself and verified as G-canon by Leland Chee, the guy who is in charge of SW canon.
As stated, the clone wars TV shows.
This is the rating of most of the EU, but many elements are G-canon even in the C-canon novels.
Obviously stated.
Again, stated.
STAR TREK:
Star Trek canon is very tight and restrictive to say the least. Paramount Pictures has Star Trek canon limited to the movies and TV Shows. Novels and other works are Non-canon. Gene Roddenberry used to state alot that "If I say it isn't Trek, it isn't Trek.". He had even stated that parts of The Original Series are not canon anymore. If we are to take the statement at face value, then we could even state that DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and any of the TNG movies are non-canon. But for the purposes of the discussion, we will go with Paramount's canon status, which means all shows and movies are canon.
To state consistency, we will go with the most numerous examples instead of relying on one episode or one movie wonders if they exist as multiple examples.
Let us also put down some ground rules please before the debate commences.
1) No flamming or trolling. I might do it on Youtube, but here, let us maintain some decorum.
2) Respectful posting, even if you do not agree with a statement.
3) If giving a quotation, please state a source. If a source is not readily available for statement, please post at least the link of the website you got it from to be verified.
Now that has been stated. Let us get on with the opening post to kick the debate off.
STARTING NOW
Opening statement:
I have consistently stated time and again that the Galactic Empire would win against most if not all Trek races, with the exception of the Q. Although there is little reason to suspect that the Q would get involved in a political or military war of ideologies or contest of physical arms. Let us divide this into a few catagories.
Industrial capacity and territorial holdings:
The Empire itself has over a million worlds as a lower limit, as stated by the G-canon source A New Hope Novelization.
-Grand Moff Tarkin (pg. 116, softcover edition)
But there are some other limits that are stated by some C-canon sources as well.
From pg. 301 of Tales of the Bounty Hunters hardcover:
And From Dark Empire, issue #3:
As we can see, the Empire has far far far more worlds than the Federation does, with a mere 150 member worlds (As stated by Captain Picard in First Contact) and perhaps several hundred or a thousand tiny colonies that do not qualify as member worlds or really rate comment since they lack any form of industrial capacity. Most are merely small settlements. Even with that in mind, they are still dwarfed by the massive Galactic Empire. Especially since the Federation has never built a starship larger than 700 meters and the Empire builds moon-sized Deathstars in 6 months.
Fleet size:
The Empire, in addition to the 2 Deathstars they built with relative ease, also maintain a fleet of 25,000 Imperial Star destroyers, as well as several ten to hundreds of thousands more ships ranging from 100 meter long corvettes to 19 km long Star Dreadnoughts like the Executor. The deathstar seen in Revenge of the Sith was most likely a prototype deathstar much like the one at the Maw installation. It is even possible this was at the maw installation, since canonwise, the Deathstar was further developed by Bevel Lemelisk as well as massive teams of engineers and scientists. The Empire has lots of ships and major industrial capacity.
The Federation at best has a few thousand starships ranging from their fighters (which are counted in their fleet counts) to Sovereign class ships. 600 ships in the Second Battle for Deep Space 9 counted as a major offensive to be reckoned with by both Damar and Weyoun. And 2800 Dominion ships were considered enough by both sides to decisively win the war with ease, since the Federation considered their destruction top priority. It took the Federation a year to recover from the loss of 39 ships at the Battle of Wolf 359 from the TNG episode The Best of Both Worlds. The Empire alone has the industrial advantage to defeat the entire Alpha Quadrant and the Dominion and more than likely the Borg even with their thousands of cubes.
Firepower and ship capabilities:
Star Destroyers have been canonically known to slag entire worlds into glass, both in G and C canon sources. The G-canon Incredible Cross Section give Acclaimator class transports 200 gigatons worth of firepower for their heavy guns, and this is a mere transport ship. It is more than likely a Star Destroyer has more firepower since it is a dedicated warship and not a transport. This alone should contradict any statement by C-canon sources that would say otherwise, since canon status in Star Wars works that way.
Federation ships are more than likely megaton firepower. In the TNG episode Pegasus, Riker stated that it would take most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid present. Considering that the Enterprise carries 200 plus photon torpedoes, this could mean anywhere from 100-199 torpedoes fired to destroy the asteriod. Some will dispute the size of the asteroid (I stated it was prob somewhere about 5km wide, and the Trek side stated 9 km by 6 km), but considering it had deep chasms that could have the Enterprise D fit in there, it is strange that the asteroid could not be destroyed by strategically firing torpedoes in the chasms to rupture the asteroid. This would suggest that the yield of torpedoes is actually in the kiloton range. but other instances will suggest at least megaton range.
The Tech manuals are noncanon, although it is written by people who worked for the show, can be used in a way to determine what makes up a photon torpedo. A photon torpedo is stated to be at maximum yield containing 1.5 kg of antimatter. This is roughly 64 megaton yield. Quantum torpedoes are stated to be twice that in firepower terms.
Another example of high end Trek firepower is the Cardassian Dreadnought, which contained 1000 KG of antimatter, which would be roughly a 43 gigaton (43,000 megatons) yield and indeed enough to shatter a small moon. But it is essentially a suicidal ramming ship superweapon and not a base tech example of standard ship firepower. This is like saying the Deathstar is standard for every Star Wars ship, since it has the ability to one-shot entire planets in a second.
Also, the Empire only requires hours or even a few days to cross galactic distances. The Federation warp drive requires decades to cross their own galaxy.
Their position is that Federation will win, and mine is that Galactic Empire easily wins.
First off, we have to establish what canon can be used for both sides. I will go with what both LucasFilms and Holocron considers canon for Star Wars, and what Paramount considers canon for Star Trek. I will state the official canon policies below.
STAR WARS:
In the Star wars side, canon is movies, books, shows, comics, reference books, and basically almost anything. There is a canon rating scale. If it is not contradicted by a higher rating canon source, it is canon.
* G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]
* T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].
* C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.
* S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.
* N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.
STAR TREK:
Star Trek canon is very tight and restrictive to say the least. Paramount Pictures has Star Trek canon limited to the movies and TV Shows. Novels and other works are Non-canon. Gene Roddenberry used to state alot that "If I say it isn't Trek, it isn't Trek.". He had even stated that parts of The Original Series are not canon anymore. If we are to take the statement at face value, then we could even state that DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, and any of the TNG movies are non-canon. But for the purposes of the discussion, we will go with Paramount's canon status, which means all shows and movies are canon.
To state consistency, we will go with the most numerous examples instead of relying on one episode or one movie wonders if they exist as multiple examples.
Let us also put down some ground rules please before the debate commences.
1) No flamming or trolling. I might do it on Youtube, but here, let us maintain some decorum.
2) Respectful posting, even if you do not agree with a statement.
3) If giving a quotation, please state a source. If a source is not readily available for statement, please post at least the link of the website you got it from to be verified.
Now that has been stated. Let us get on with the opening post to kick the debate off.
STARTING NOW
Opening statement:
I have consistently stated time and again that the Galactic Empire would win against most if not all Trek races, with the exception of the Q. Although there is little reason to suspect that the Q would get involved in a political or military war of ideologies or contest of physical arms. Let us divide this into a few catagories.
Industrial capacity and territorial holdings:
The Empire itself has over a million worlds as a lower limit, as stated by the G-canon source A New Hope Novelization.
"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all."
But there are some other limits that are stated by some C-canon sources as well.
From pg. 301 of Tales of the Bounty Hunters hardcover:
"In a sector of the galaxy Boba Fett had never heard of, a star went nova; it murdered a world and an entire sentient species. It aroused less comment than had the destruction of Alderaan, only a decade prior; the galaxy at large barely noticed the tragedy, and Fett never heard about it. In a galaxy with over four hundred billion stars, over twenty million intelligent species, such things are bound to happen."
Leia: "It's true, Han. The Force is bringing me closer to Luke ... even though he's light years away ... he's in terrible trouble, Han. The dark side is swallowing him whole! We've got to find him!"
Han: "Sure, why not? There's only twelve million inhabited star systems out there ... it shouldn't be too hard."
Han: "Sure, why not? There's only twelve million inhabited star systems out there ... it shouldn't be too hard."
Fleet size:
The Empire, in addition to the 2 Deathstars they built with relative ease, also maintain a fleet of 25,000 Imperial Star destroyers, as well as several ten to hundreds of thousands more ships ranging from 100 meter long corvettes to 19 km long Star Dreadnoughts like the Executor. The deathstar seen in Revenge of the Sith was most likely a prototype deathstar much like the one at the Maw installation. It is even possible this was at the maw installation, since canonwise, the Deathstar was further developed by Bevel Lemelisk as well as massive teams of engineers and scientists. The Empire has lots of ships and major industrial capacity.
The Federation at best has a few thousand starships ranging from their fighters (which are counted in their fleet counts) to Sovereign class ships. 600 ships in the Second Battle for Deep Space 9 counted as a major offensive to be reckoned with by both Damar and Weyoun. And 2800 Dominion ships were considered enough by both sides to decisively win the war with ease, since the Federation considered their destruction top priority. It took the Federation a year to recover from the loss of 39 ships at the Battle of Wolf 359 from the TNG episode The Best of Both Worlds. The Empire alone has the industrial advantage to defeat the entire Alpha Quadrant and the Dominion and more than likely the Borg even with their thousands of cubes.
Firepower and ship capabilities:
Star Destroyers have been canonically known to slag entire worlds into glass, both in G and C canon sources. The G-canon Incredible Cross Section give Acclaimator class transports 200 gigatons worth of firepower for their heavy guns, and this is a mere transport ship. It is more than likely a Star Destroyer has more firepower since it is a dedicated warship and not a transport. This alone should contradict any statement by C-canon sources that would say otherwise, since canon status in Star Wars works that way.
Federation ships are more than likely megaton firepower. In the TNG episode Pegasus, Riker stated that it would take most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid present. Considering that the Enterprise carries 200 plus photon torpedoes, this could mean anywhere from 100-199 torpedoes fired to destroy the asteriod. Some will dispute the size of the asteroid (I stated it was prob somewhere about 5km wide, and the Trek side stated 9 km by 6 km), but considering it had deep chasms that could have the Enterprise D fit in there, it is strange that the asteroid could not be destroyed by strategically firing torpedoes in the chasms to rupture the asteroid. This would suggest that the yield of torpedoes is actually in the kiloton range. but other instances will suggest at least megaton range.
The Tech manuals are noncanon, although it is written by people who worked for the show, can be used in a way to determine what makes up a photon torpedo. A photon torpedo is stated to be at maximum yield containing 1.5 kg of antimatter. This is roughly 64 megaton yield. Quantum torpedoes are stated to be twice that in firepower terms.
Another example of high end Trek firepower is the Cardassian Dreadnought, which contained 1000 KG of antimatter, which would be roughly a 43 gigaton (43,000 megatons) yield and indeed enough to shatter a small moon. But it is essentially a suicidal ramming ship superweapon and not a base tech example of standard ship firepower. This is like saying the Deathstar is standard for every Star Wars ship, since it has the ability to one-shot entire planets in a second.
Also, the Empire only requires hours or even a few days to cross galactic distances. The Federation warp drive requires decades to cross their own galaxy.
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