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Madwelshboy
September 19th, 2010, 01:17 PM
MITCH PILEGGI (“X-Files,” “Sons of Anarchy”) RETURNS AS DEAN AND SAM’S GRANDFATHER — It’s a year later and Dean (Jensen Ackles) has given up hunting and is living with Lisa (guest star Cindy Sampson) and her son Ben (guest star Nicholas Elia). Mysteriously freed from his cage in hell, Sam (Jared Padalecki) finds Dean and tells him he needs to rejoin the fight and introduces Dean to a world—a family—he never even knew existed.... the Campbells, his mother’s family, lead by none other than their Grandfather Samuel (Pileggi). Phil Sgrricia directed the episode written by Sera Gamble.

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LizzieAnne
September 25th, 2010, 04:43 AM
After a lot of aggrevation I got to watch the ep...so just my initial thoughts ...I'll need a re-watch though.

Overall I thought it was a great start. All the elements that needed to be touched on were done well. They packed a lot in there.

The introduction montage showing a snapshot of Dean's life was great. I liked that although he was getting on with a normal life but wasn't totally at ease with it.

This was pretty much a Dean centric episode and it worked really well. So pretty much everyone knew Sam was back ...except him. Poor Dean. I think he handled it pretty well in the circumstances. I agree with all the reasons why no one told him though. He did deserve some time out of the hunting world, to heal from all that emotional trauma if nothing else....he really was a wreck at the end of S5. It made sense....even though he was pissed about it. Probably still haven't heard the end of it and I expect it'll be brought up a gain in the future.

I wasn't sure how I was going to view Lisa...because to be honest I was totally underwhelmed with her introduction last Season. I considered her a necessary plot mover and that was it. So I was pleasantly surprised this episode. I liked her. She knows all about what Dean has been through and doesn't do the standard whiny clingy girlfriend bit plus she seems to have been given a pretty smart attitude to it all that I think will bode well for future eps. We'll see. I did feel a bit sorry for her though.... she seems to really love Dean (well who wouldn't) but he seemed a bit emotionally shut off from her...I don't think he feels the same towards her.

A great way to introduce Sam back....being there for Dean as he was having the life choked out of him...although we now know the YED was an hallucination. I thought the way he acted towards Dean was interesting, different to what we normally expect but hints at a new dynamic between them. Strained but civil. Not exactly what we're used to but something that will be worked on no doubt.

And there was the hug...not quite the one I wanted, with Sam's emotions being bolted down so tight, but better than nothing. :P

Sam is bound to be different after his time in the Cage with Lucifer and we get a taste of how he's changed with his conversation with Dean at the end. He's harder, closed off emotionally and the pain he's feeling is buried deep but he seems to know that being with Dean will help him.

So we get to see Bobby..yay! and the Campbell Clan and a mystery to how Grandpa Campbell is alive. He's not what he seems but that's enough explanation I need for now. I'm patient.

So Dean is left staying with Lisa and Ben...hmmmm....interesting. I bet that not going to last for long.

Oh yes..I have to have my fangirl moment...I love Sam's hair! :P

warrior_chic
September 25th, 2010, 08:26 AM
I think I have many of the same feelings. I loved the montage at the beginning. Dean'd settled into a "normal" life, but he still had his instincts (loved the holy water and shotgun under the bed). Somewhere in there when arguing with Sam, Sam said he wanted that life and Dean said he wanted his brother. My take is that Dean would love to have Lisa and Ben, but he NEEDS Sam. And I think his whole reasoning at the end was that now that he's brought all this onto Lisa and Ben, he feel he needs to be there to protect them.

I'm still not sure where I stand on the Campbells. I guess Samuel was brought back after 30+ years for a reason, but that comment when they were capturing the Djinn didn't sit right with me. I think it'll be interesting to see where that goes.

This role-reversal will be interesting now. Sam being the stiff one with the buried emotions and Dean being the "bleeding heart". And I personally think, that no matter what their individual personalities change to or from, they need each other to balance out and almost form a complete single person.

Seeing as it's been about 12 hours since I watched it and I was kinda half asleep when I did, we'll see what else I can notice later.

LizzieAnne
September 25th, 2010, 09:16 AM
I think I have many of the same feelings. I loved the montage at the beginning. Dean'd settled into a "normal" life, but he still had his instincts (loved the holy water and shotgun under the bed). Somewhere in there when arguing with Sam, Sam said he wanted that life and Dean said he wanted his brother. My take is that Dean would love to have Lisa and Ben, but he NEEDS Sam. And I think his whole reasoning at the end was that now that he's brought all this onto Lisa and Ben, he feel he needs to be there to protect them.


Yes...whatever happens I don't see him leaving them in the lurch.




I'm still not sure where I stand on the Campbells. I guess Samuel was brought back after 30+ years for a reason, but that comment when they were capturing the Djinn didn't sit right with me. I think it'll be interesting to see where that goes.


Yeah...something is definitely odd there about what Samuel said to the Djinn. That kind of indicates something isn't quite what it seems. I guess we'll find out...eventually..:D

Samuel said something about him coming down (from heaven I assume) as Sam came up (from Hell). Kind of insinuating that when one happened so did the other. No idea how that will play out though.



This role-reversal will be interesting now. Sam being the stiff one with the buried emotions and Dean being the "bleeding heart". And I personally think, that no matter what their individual personalities change to or from, they need each other to balance out and almost form a complete single person.

Seeing as it's been about 12 hours since I watched it and I was kinda half asleep when I did, we'll see what else I can notice later.

Yeah I definitely need a re-watch. There was so much to take in.

After reading so many spoilers about how their personalities were going to change I'm pleasantly surprised how they're being portrayed. And I agree they need each other, thankfully. :P

One thing I forget to say was what a great job Sera's done with this Première. Putting everything in place for a whole new direction the show had to take for it to survive.

LoneStar1836
September 25th, 2010, 10:08 AM
I think it was a great season opener as well for setting up the new season and direction they want to take. I'm pretty excited about this season, especially after seeing this ep, and I've only read very minimal spoilers. That angel stuff really began to drag on me last yr.

As to Samuel, I'm interested to see where they go with this. I don't think they are bad, and I hope they don't make them out to be evil. Didn't Sam or one of the others say something about monsters acting differently or something...which I think is kind of a theme for this year, a more in depth look at the other monsters in the mythology. I think they held on to that djinn to question/study it maybe.

Nice to see Corin Nemec. :) By casting him I hope that means he'll be a bit more reoccurring and get a bit more to do.

I really excited for the new season. :D Especially seeing as this is only one of a handful of shows I watch.

the fifth man
September 25th, 2010, 06:12 PM
This sixth season is off to one hell of a nice start IMO. TPTB definitely haven't lost their touch, that is for sure.

Lt. Jeffer
September 25th, 2010, 11:04 PM
I also think that this was an great start for the new season i just hope that Cas will come back and Hunt with the Winchesters again
I dont know what i should think about Samuel and the others i have an bad vibe about them im really excited what will come next

the fifth man
September 26th, 2010, 05:32 PM
I also think that this was an great start for the new season i just hope that Cas will come back and Hunt with the Winchesters again
I dont know what i should think about Samuel and the others i have an bad vibe about them im really excited what will come next

Yeah, I don't totally trust them either. We need to know what was behind them taking the female Djinn alive.

warrior_chic
September 26th, 2010, 05:59 PM
Personally, the guy that played the out-of-nowhere cousin is also on a show called Flashpoint. So I'm kinda hoping he doesn't stay around too long, mostly so I can feel better about that show coming back intact. And Corin was the only completely new actor I remember being announced, so I'm not even sure I can guess how they will deal with the rest of the cousins and any other Campbells that come out of the woodwork, or as Dean put it, "out of the door".

Jeffer
September 26th, 2010, 06:22 PM
Awesome start to the season. When season 5 ended with such an awesome ep I was worried that it wouldn't live up to it but it did a good job. It would have been awesome for Yellow eyes to be back but I guess its not to be. Took me a few times of seeing Corin to realize who it was. In the start I was very surprised to see Dean living normally. I was thinking really nothing your not looking over your shoulder then it paned under the bed the shot gun the holy water and then demon trap under the front door mat. Grandpa Campbell has another agenda and it doesn't seem like Sam and Dean would be in favor of what ever he is doing.

warrior_chic
September 27th, 2010, 05:33 AM
Grandpa Campbell has another agenda and it doesn't seem like Sam and Dean would be in favor of what ever he is doing.

I agree. I think the boys would be happy to have Grandpa guiding and teaching, especially from what Dean experienced in "In the Beginning", but when they boys figure out what he's up to, at least now, I can see it driving a big ol' wedge between them. And there was something Samuel said, along the lines of "the Campbells are back together", and we were looking at Sam when he said that. I thought I saw a little cringe or something from Sammy. The Campbells may be the original hunters of the family, but the boys got their hunting skills as Winchesters.

Crichiel
September 27th, 2010, 08:20 AM
All right, I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. I kept my mouth shut on the Swan Song thread (except to express my displeasure at the ep in general ;)) because I didn't want to be the buzzkill. But if I do that everytime I am unhappy, I am worried with the way the last four eps have gone that I won't be able to post much. :(

WARNING: I am really really REALLY going to lay into the episode here. So, if that bothers you, go ahead and skip this entire post. If it doesn't bother you, feel free to read, and if you disagree, I totally understand and respect that, and would love to hear couterpoints. But PLEASE don't flame me, I am just expressing my opinion. :o

First and foremost: Lose. :mad: The. :mad: Campbells. :mad::mad::mad: I wasn't happy with this development since it first got spoilered.

While I like the time travel episodes in general, I was never happy with the idea that Mary came from a hunting family. For one thing, I liked the idea of Mary (and John) being totally innocent and unaware of the hunting world and being thrust into it when it come out of nowhere. Sam and Dean are no longer special, doing a job that no one else can or will do. With all these hunting Campbells, you've taken the thing that defines Sam and (especially Dean), and made them....common. :( Not only are they not unique in the world, they aren't even special within their own family! There are relatives coming out left and right, all of whom were brought up in the business and (at this point) being portrayed as superior in hunting to Sam and Dean. They are tougher, more knowledgeable, been doing it longer...yada yada yada. They are making Sam and Dean come off as ineffective amateurs. I thought TPTB said they learned their lesson with Bela. Don't bring in new characters that are going to make your heroes look weak or stupid.

Which brings me to Dean's emasculation. He seemed WAY too comfortable living the suburban lifestyle. I mean, whatever the circumstances, this is still Dean we are talking about, right? Or maybe not. Aside from the one snide comment that it's "almost like I'm a professional", he sure didn't come off as our hero in this episode. He's THAT rusty after a YEAR?!! Give me a break. Sam was out for years at Stanford and had no problem getting back into the swing of things. (He had to adjust to the emotion of hunting again, but he was still good at the actual hunting, starting with the pilot). Of course, Sam wasn't that wonderful either. Sam couldn't take out one Djinn in a fight? Grandpa had to save him? Which then gives Sam the chance to go save Dean, because Dean isn't strong enough to fight either. :rolleyes:

Which leads to Sam and his complete loss of emotion. There's character progression, and then there is just character change. And I know, I know, it's early. This is probably some residual stuff from his time in hell...which is ANOTHER sticking point with me. Why does everyone think Sam's time in hell would have been worse with Dean's. I never understood that. Sam was in hell for what? A few days? A week? So, in hell-time a year or two? And he was in the cage battling Michael. A battle, which to me implies give and take. Dean had THIRTY years of being powerless, strung up on the rack tortured, with no way to fight back until those last 10 years. Sounds a little worse to me.

Back to Grandpa Winchester. "You're a Campbell." I'm sorry, I fell in love with these WINCHESTER brothers. They were raised by John, you guys just showed up. That's like a birth parent showing up and telling the kid they're adopted family isn't their 'real' family, blood is more important (which isn't even a convincing argument because they ARE also Winchesters by blood). "Stick around, I'll show you things your daddy never even dreamed of."? Sure, why not? Let's take another of the show's coolest, most beloved characters, John, and say how flawed he was as a hunter as well. :rolleyes:

Couple other nitpicks as long as I'm at it :o: I thought Sam and Dean's reunion was so stiff and...boring. Even from the clip that was released ahead of time, I could tell immediately that the YED was either dream/hallucination something, the soft rock song at the beginning? I know it highlighted Dean's new life, but it's the season premiere, for criminy's sake, I want the usual "get psyched" AC/DC of past years. The boring song just capped off a boring episode. Sam, a new Dodge Charger? Really? If you are going with a Charger, at least go for the Dukes of Hazard era one! And finally, where was the humour?!! There was, what, like 3 sarcastic lines?

Ok, what DID I like? Give me a second...;)...No, I DID like the new title card. Dream or not, I LOVE Fred Lehne's YED, so i was happy to see him. I did like that they didn't SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) Ben. They used the same actor, so he was the correct age. I liked Dean's relationship with Lisa. I, surprisingly, have always thought that they are a great match. She's strong enough to handle him. I liked going back to the Djinn. I loved Bobby in this episode. He at least is still the character I fell in love with.

And that's the crux of my complaints with this episode, I think the STORY had to going in a new direction after the apocalypse, but I disagree that the CHARACTERS had to. I fell in love with a show about 2 brothers. Dean, who was cocky, funny, and a scary-good hunter, with a lot of supressed emotion. Now this is a family guy, who isn't confident, isn't funny, and can't hunt worth a d***. Sam who was sweet, sympathetic, and a really good hunter, but one who didn't do it mindlessly, he wouldn't blindly kill Lenore just because she was a vampire. Now, he is cold, apathetic, and a better hunter than Dean, but not as good as The Amazing Campbells, but will kill mindlessly and needs DEAN to ground him. These are completely different people than the ones I loved watching each week. Even before I watched this show regularly, when I caught it here and there, I thought the stories and characters were wonderful (it was just too scary or confusing to watch). If I had seen this episode without knowing the show, I would have said, "Meh." And not have watched another one.

Fortunately, I DO know this show. And I will absolutely give them time to unfold the seasonlong story before final judgement. For the last 3 episodes of last season, I could see this heading in a direction I wasn't thrilled with. But everyone kept saying, "Have faith, have faith. I have faith because they have never disappointed us before." They did disappointed me last year, but I did have faith, I DO have faith. I am not giving up on the show, I'm not going to stop watching, I am fully aware that we can't tell what's going to happen from the first episode and that there COULD be an overall grand plan that turns out to be awesome in the end. But right now, I am not impressed. (And for the record, I don't blame Sera, or the fact that Kripke is gone. I was angry at Swan Song when Eric was still around full-time). But again, I seem to be the sole voice of dissent. The show can't please everyone and from what you guys have said, you're all very pleased. So, unfortunately in this case, I'm the one who isn't going to be pleased. What a bummer.

So sorry to buzzkill. I just had to vent it all once (especially since I was carrying this feeling all summer). I now return you to your regularly scheduled, Happy Supernatural Obsessed Crichiel. :D * she says as she scarily reaches for the 'submit reply' button in fear of what everyone's going to do to her when they read this...* :S

iolanda
September 27th, 2010, 08:49 AM
@Crichiel: Nah, you are not that alone, I just didn't have the proper words how to express my feelings and hope you excuse it if I use yours from time to time.

I didn't not like the episode, but it was imho the weakest season opener so far (or par with "The Magnificient Seven", which was also a little bit underwhelming in my eyes).

I couldn't agree more with the Campbells, I can't stand them and they feel as if they took the Roadhouse (which didn't work in their eyes) and combine it with Bella (who didn't work in the audience eyes). I secretly hope that they are an evil bunch and that the boys get rid of them more sooner than later.

I've watched the episode now two times and I liked it, but I did not love it. The tone between the brothers was just off, but I think that this was on purpose, because Dean was so disappointed by Sam and Bobby, and because of the stuff that happened to Sam, and I really, really hope that they fix it over the next episodes, because if it continues this way, I won't be able to love the new season as much as loved the other ones.

So, I did love the opener, the comparison between Deans old life and his new one, and I loved him with Lisa and Ben, and I loved Lisa, and how intelligent she was when Dean tried to say good-bye and she put him on his feet again. I also loved Frederic Lehne and how frightening his YED still is, and I loves "pest control" and "you won't believe what's living in some peoples walls, it's eating them up".

Hm, I guess my ambiguous feeling about this episode mirror Deans feelings, who can't be happy about the way Sam treated him, and to find out about the famous family of hunters, which put you from "best hunter in the world" to "another one from the same bunch". Where have they been for 5 years? So they are that good but did not know that their family was trying to stop the apocalypse, something every other hunter seemed to know at the end of S5?

Dean has every right to be suspicious and not follow them, and in the end he lets Sam go with a uneasy feeling, I guess the same feeling I had for the episode. Not really bad but also not that great.

Oh, and sadly it WAS boring in parts, but that is a problem that happened from time to time in the last season as well: too much talking about stuff.

warrior_chic
September 27th, 2010, 09:55 AM
I agree with both of you.

Crichiel, bringing in the Campbells does mess with the bro's rep. Now I could maybe get behind Samuel, but as much as I love Corin, bringing in 3 other hunters, saying they're just like our boys cheapens them a lot. And, iolanda, I do think they're going to have to explain where these people have been since every other hunter under the sun and then some knew what the boys were up to. And if they're so great, why have the boys not run across them before?

And I think they can take the plot and the boys' relationship in a new direction with out changing the nature of each brother's personality they they seem to be doing. And I get that a stint in Hell, no matter how long, would change them. And I also agree that Dean's stint would have been worse. He may not have been in the middle of the Michael/Lucifer battle, but he was torturing "innocent" souls for 10 years after being ripped apart every day for 30.

I also think Lisa is good for Dean. She moderately understands what he's been through and accepts that he comes with some serious baggage. And I would like to see some more of Dean/Ben. Kinda like he could get to be the father to Ben that he was to Sam without all the pressure of having to do it while growing up himself and protecting Sammy from the hunting side of life. But I do think Dean settled in a little too much, even after a year. Yes, he still had the shotgun, holy water, and trap, but his baby was under a tarp! He didn't even seem to take her out on a semi-regular basis. Even if he wasn't actively hunting, there are just some things Dean, in my mind, would never separate from.

Now, because I didn't start watching until this summer, I haven't been attached to these people for as long as most of you, so I may be a little more forgiving? in my opinions about the directions things are headed. I guess I'll join Crichiel in waiting for the next few eps to see just how much they shake things up.

Ashizuri
September 27th, 2010, 10:01 AM
All right, I'll be the lone voice of dissent here.

You're not alone. I didn't like the episode either. I thought Swan Song was a bit of a let down, but I was so excited for the season to start...


He's THAT rusty after a YEAR?!! Give me a break.

I totally didn't buy that either. Dean is a hunter. Period. He might not be actively hunting, but he's a hunter.


Sounds a little worse to me.

I can't say which was worse yet, as we don't really know the particulars of Sam's stay in the pit, but I do think it was mighty hypocrital of him to shut Dean down so quickly when he asked about it when back in season 4 he pressured Dean the entire season to talk about his trip to Hell.


Back to Grandpa Winchester. "You're a Campbell." I'm sorry, I fell in love with these WINCHESTER brothers. They were raised by John, you guys just showed up.

When he said that I looked over at my roommate and said "excuse me, but we're Winchesters!!"


"Stick around, I'll show you things your daddy never even dreamed of."

I hated that line. I really liked Samuel when we first met him in the flashbacks. He was gruff and protective of his family but he seemed so...jerky. Arrogant and condescending and I don't remember him being that way. I'll have to rewatch those episodes again to see if he was always such a buttface. And anyway, maybe you know things that John didn't, but you'll never be as awesome. Ever.

Corin made me laugh though. When the girl!Campbell was like "you have delicate features" or whatever to Dean and Supernatural Jonas says "like your mom." For a second there I thought he was cracking a "your mom" joke. I lol'd.

I liked Lisa, though I'm still not sold on her being "the one" for Dean. She's smart and strong and seems like she could handle the life and I like the actress well enough to be interested in seeing more of her. Though I don't picture them getting a happy ending. Dean doesn't seem particularly happy there, like he's staying more out of duty and because everyone expects him too. I think I'm still still bitter that they didn't bring Cassie back for this plotline.


I thought Sam and Dean's reunion was so stiff and...boring.

Yep. I think part of it might be that Jared Padalecki, fabulous guy that he is, is just not a great actor. I just didn't feel any emotion coming from him. Dean was near to tears and Sam was just like "Oh yeah, hi." I didn't like it at all. It once again gave me the feeling that Sam doesn't quite love his brother as much as Dean loves him. Maybe they're playing that way for a reason, but I didn't like it.


Sam, a new Dodge Charger? Really? If you are going with a Charger, at least go for the Dukes of Hazard era one!

Ok, I have to laugh at this because that was my exact reaction. I was like, "A new charger? Ew." But then, it kind of makes sense. Sam never did want to be like his family. I bet he's got his ipod deck and listens to emo rock with two guitars and a whole lot of complaining.

I did like the new title card though. It's not as awesome as the one for seasons 2 and four, but so much better than season 5. That on had unpleasant associations for me. Icky.


I loved Bobby in this episode.

I will always love Bobby. I think I was more panicked in Swan Song at the thought of him dying than the thought of Sam dying.

I'll watch this show to the bitter end, even if I end up hating it this season. I LOVE MY BOYS! And Bobby. AND CAS! Castiel could have made this episode better I just know it. Cas and Bobby. And Crowley. It's sad when my favorite things about the show aren't the main characters anymore. :(

Also? The Impala. I missed the Impala more than I thought it was possible to miss a car.

LizzieAnne
September 27th, 2010, 10:46 AM
Yep. I think part of it might be that Jared Padalecki, fabulous guy that he is, is just not a great actor. I just didn't feel any emotion coming from him. Dean was near to tears and Sam was just like "Oh yeah, hi." I didn't like it at all. It once again gave me the feeling that Sam doesn't quite love his brother as much as Dean loves him. Maybe they're playing that way for a reason, but I didn't like it.

.

I always enjoy reading everyone's reviews, even if I totally disagree with them and why Sam's behaving like that, like it or not, is all part of the intrigue of the story. Your comment about Jared is totally unacceptable on here. Well it is by me. I hate to see these Supernatural threads (or any threads for that matter) reduced to character and actor bashing. Especially actor bashing. And this is how it starts.

Ashizuri
September 27th, 2010, 11:03 AM
I always enjoy reading everyone's reviews, even if I totally disagree with them and why Sam's behaving like that, like it or not, is all part of the intrigue of the story. Your comment about Jared is totally unacceptable on here. Well it is by me. I hate to see these Supernatural threads (or any threads for that matter) reduced to character and actor bashing. Especially actor bashing. And this is how it starts.

No, actually it's not unacceptable. I'm sorry you feel differently, but it's neither character nor actor bashing. I don't think he's a great actor. He's good, and I obviously like him enough to watch his show, but no, I don't think he's great and sometimes I wonder if it affects how I perceive the character. And I love Sam, which is why, in my review I said "I love my boys." If Jensen turns in a subpar performance I'll note that in my reviews too, but, just as I did here, I'll do it respectfully without any bashing whatsoever. Critiquing an actor =/= bashing and I can say with no hesitation whatsoever that you will never see me bashing JP or Sam.

LizzieAnne
September 27th, 2010, 11:18 AM
No, actually it's not unacceptable. I'm sorry you feel differently, but it's neither character nor actor bashing. I don't think he's a great actor. He's good, and I obviously like him enough to watch his show, but no, I don't think he's great and sometimes I wonder if it affects how I perceive the character. And I love Sam, which is why, in my review I said "I love my boys." If Jensen turns in a subpar performance I'll note that in my reviews too, but, just as I did here, I'll do it respectfully without any bashing whatsoever. Critiquing an actor =/= bashing and I can say with no hesitation whatsoever that you will never see me bashing JP or Sam.

You call that critique? Yeah, right! How about common courtesy then...I'll be happy with that.

I can only say that I leave it up to everyone else to come to their own conclusions.

Ashizuri
September 27th, 2010, 11:38 AM
You call that critique? Yeah, right! How about common courtesy then...I'll be happy with that.

Yes, I call it critique. I'm sorry, but I genuinely don't think I crossed any line or was impolite but I'll try to remember to put my critiques on actors performances under spoiler tags so you don't have to see them.

LoneStar1836
September 27th, 2010, 11:58 AM
All right, I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. I kept my mouth shut on the Swan Song thread (except to express my displeasure at the ep in general ;)) because I didn't want to be the buzzkill. But if I do that everytime I am unhappy, I am worried with the way the last four eps have gone that I won't be able to post much. :(

Don't be afraid to say what you really think. I have no problem with people saying what they don't like about something. I certainly wasn't afraid to criticize SG-1 and SGA when they morphed into something I really hated at the time. :)




First and foremost: Lose. :mad: The. :mad: Campbells. :mad::mad::mad: I wasn't happy with this development since it first got spoilered.I'm willing to see where they go with it and just how are they going to play into the storyline before I decide if I like or dislike them .

I rather hope they aren't bad because it gives the brothers a connection to their mother.


While I like the time travel episodes in general, I was never happy with the idea that Mary came from a hunting family. For one thing, I liked the idea of Mary (and John) being totally innocent and unaware of the hunting world and being thrust into it when it come out of nowhere. Sam and Dean are no longer special, doing a job that no one else can or will do. With all these hunting Campbells, you've taken the thing that defines Sam and (especially Dean), and made them....common. :( Not only are they not unique in the world, they aren't even special within their own family! There are relatives coming out left and right, all of whom were brought up in the business and (at this point) being portrayed as superior in hunting to Sam and Dean. They are tougher, more knowledgeable, been doing it longer...yada yada yada. They are making Sam and Dean come off as ineffective amateurs. I thought TPTB said they learned their lesson with Bela. Don't bring in new characters that are going to make your heroes look weak or stupid.Personally, I don't view it that way. The Campbells just have a different methodology/view of hunting because they grew up differently and looked at hunting differently. (Course we don't exactly know the motivation behind them being hunters...even going back to the time travel ep) Only that they are. Doesn't make Sam or Dean stupid just because they don't know other tricks of the trade since John was not born into hunting and had to learn as he went along.

The show had to introduce hunters into the mythology, imo, way back when they did because Sam and Dean needed sources of information that they could draw from when tackling different cases. Bobby is a great example of this. So hunters are a common underbelly in the world they live in. So in that regard, no, Sam and Dean aren't special as they are just another set of hunters.



I thought having Mary be from a family of hunters made the show more interesting story and character wise. She grew up a hunter. Didn't want her children growing up that way. They tragically did anyway.


As far as the question of where have these people been for five years and why didn't they come forward during the Apocalypse stuff of last season? Well for story reasons obviously. :P But in all seriousness, Samuel was dead and who knows how distantly related those other three "cousins" are. Do you keep up with all your related cousins? I don't. :D I've got a first cousin who is married, but I have no idea what the maiden name of the girl he married is. The brothers go by Winchester. So unless they knew Mary and knew she married a guy named Winchester, I find it plausible that they didn't know they were related to the brothers until now. If Samuel is who he claims to be then he would have been the one to know how to get in touch with these other Campbells. I know Sam researched Mary's side of the family several seasons ago, but these are hunters so they should know how to cover their tracks.




Which brings me to Dean's emasculation. He seemed WAY too comfortable living the suburban lifestyle. I mean, whatever the circumstances, this is still Dean we are talking about, right? Or maybe not. At least he wasn't driving a mini van. :P:D

I didn't see it as emasculating him. (Okay maybe the golf was a bit too much.) Yeah he grew up as a drifter, but at some point I don't see why he couldn't settle down, for a while at least. As it showed, he still fell into the old hunter routines...always checking the doors at night, gun/holy water under the bed, devil's trap under the rug. He had a job in construction...a hands on job like hunting. *shrug*



Aside from the one snide comment that it's "almost like I'm a professional", he sure didn't come off as our hero in this episode. He's THAT rusty after a YEAR?!! Give me a break. Sam was out for years at Stanford and had no problem getting back into the swing of things. (He had to adjust to the emotion of hunting again, but he was still good at the actual hunting, starting with the pilot). Of course, Sam wasn't that wonderful either. Sam couldn't take out one Djinn in a fight? Grandpa had to save him? Which then gives Sam the chance to go save Dean, because Dean isn't strong enough to fight either. :rolleyes: By that point hadn't the djinn gotten to Dean and poisoned him with whatever stuff that was making him hallucinate? I could be wrong about what you are referring to as I've only seen the ep the one time.

As to Samuel saving Sam. I've always liked that Sam and Dean don't always get the one up on whatever bad thing they are fighting. It's always kinda been that way. Same way they are always losing their weapon...and need bungee cords. :D That's why the brothers fight together in order to cover each other's back. Otherwise if they were that great they'd have no problem going solo...and the whumpers would be sad.;) It humanizes them more, imo. So with Dean incapacitated, Sam was on his own and at some point you knew the Campbells would come busting in to help out. That's just how I view it. :)




Which leads to Sam and his complete loss of emotion. There's character progression, and then there is just character change. And I know, I know, it's early. This is probably some residual stuff from his time in hell...which is ANOTHER sticking point with me. Why does everyone think Sam's time in hell would have been worse with Dean's. I never understood that. Sam was in hell for what? A few days? A week? So, in hell-time a year or two? And he was in the cage battling Michael. A battle, which to me implies give and take. Dean had THIRTY years of being powerless, strung up on the rack tortured, with no way to fight back until those last 10 years. Sounds a little worse to me. Dean made some comment (I think in Swan Song or one of the ones toward the end) suggesting that he thought it was going to be way worse than what he went through, but obviously he was just speculating, which is what fans can only do until the writers ever comment on it.

I'm not going to judge one way or the other at this point.



Back to Grandpa Winchester. "You're a Campbell." I'm sorry, I fell in love with these WINCHESTER brothers. They were raised by John, you guys just showed up. That's like a birth parent showing up and telling the kid they're adopted family isn't their 'real' family, blood is more important (which isn't even a convincing argument because they ARE also Winchesters by blood). "Stick around, I'll show you things your daddy never even dreamed of."? Sure, why not? Let's take another of the show's coolest, most beloved characters, John, and say how flawed he was as a hunter as well. :rolleyes:Men can be arrogant and cocky. Apparently Samuel takes pride in being a hunter. You know how fans of shows can get into the whole pissing match about who is a "true" fan and who isn't. I kind of look at it like that. Samuel knows that John only became a hunter later in life after being forced into the life. Where as I'm guessing Samuel was probably one as soon as he was old enough to hold a gun. It's a family business for him...and his last name is Campbell.


As to Sam driving a Dodge Charger. At least it's a muscle car and not some Prius. :D

warrior_chic
September 27th, 2010, 12:36 PM
As to Sam driving a Dodge Charger. At least it's a muscle car and not some Prius. :D

Very true :)

the fifth man
September 27th, 2010, 07:00 PM
I certainly hope, as this season unfolds, those of you that didn't like the premiere will end up liking the overall direction of this season. Personally, I thought it was a really good premiere. Yeah, things have changed quite a bit. We knew they would from what TPTB stated during the hiatus. Let's give this a fair shot. I don't think Kripke would let them twist this show too much.

warrior_chic
September 27th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I certainly hope, as this season unfolds, those of you that didn't like the premiere will end up liking the overall direction of this season. Personally, I thought it was a really good premiere. Yeah, things have changed quite a bit. We knew they would from what TPTB stated during the hiatus. Let's give this a fair shot. I don't think Kripke would let them twist this show too much.

You're right. These people (or most of them) have been there from the beginning, so I doubt they'll screw it up. I just have to remember that they know where it's going better than the actors, who know where it's going better than me. I'll just have to be patient, which is not exactly my strong suit :/

padr49904
September 27th, 2010, 11:07 PM
First and foremost, how do all the hunters make money? There are like 30 we have seen and they can't all be running credit card scams.

I liked the idea of the Campbell's but after showing them being better than everyone at the job they have been doing for generations it is kind of degrading for some people who didn't even know there were vampires still until they were in their 20s.

They would be great for a couple episodes but I won't be surprised if something happens and they get killed off. They just seem too perfect for the job and this show is about amateurs that are still learning as they go. Their dad taught them a lot but having people who have been hunting for years telling them everything would kind of just ruin the finding out for themselves. They did say there were creatures no one had ever seen before so it will be fun seeing how everyone will deal with them.

Sam has changed a lot even though he was barely in hell for long but if he was in there for 2 weeks or so it could equal out for about 5 years because they said a month was about 10 years or so. I am hoping they have some flashbacks of Sam getting released because it seemed there could of been something he wasn't telling everyone and their grandfather's release seemed really shifty because he hadn't even aged, but maybe an angel decided Sam and Dean needed help.

I rate this episode an 8 out of 10 because it was great but it had some elements that seemed to be added to simplify everything like the campbells.

queen_hathor
September 28th, 2010, 05:23 AM
*peeks into the thread*

Before it gets too busy, I have a few comments to add. I don't time to do a full review now, but there are a few things I want to say!

Overall impression of the ep - fantastic, loved it! :D It's brilliant to see it back, and whilst it frustrated the hell out of me because it's left SO many questions and speculations as to what direction it's going, but that's one of the things I love about Spn. You just never know!

Before I join in what's already been said, I'd like to point out that I'm quoting Crichiel only because it's the first post and others have generally agreed with it, so it seems logical. Crich, you know I don't mean offence in quoting you! :)


All right, I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. I kept my mouth shut on the Swan Song thread (except to express my displeasure at the ep in general ;)) because I didn't want to be the buzzkill. But if I do that everytime I am unhappy, I am worried with the way the last four eps have gone that I won't be able to post much. :(

WARNING: I am really really REALLY going to lay into the episode here. So, if that bothers you, go ahead and skip this entire post. If it doesn't bother you, feel free to read, and if you disagree, I totally understand and respect that, and would love to hear couterpoints. But PLEASE don't flame me, I am just expressing my opinion. :o
First off, I totally respect that everyone has their opinions, which they are entitled to. My only question to you, and anyone else who are getting more and more disappointed with some of the eps, and in some cases, the series as a whole... if you're so unhappy with it, why the bloody hell are you still watching? :rolleyes: If I had such strong feeling against a series, I'd stop watching it. I have better things to do with my time than b*tch about things I don't like. :mad:

The logical thing (IMO) to do in a case like that is give it up as a bad job. People get more and more fed up when they're let down, so I think there comes a point when you have to say enough is enough.


Which brings me to Dean's emasculation. He seemed WAY too comfortable living the suburban lifestyle. I mean, whatever the circumstances, this is still Dean we are talking about, right? Or maybe not. I'm confused here. How exactly is Dean emasculated? :S Just because he's living a 'normal' life, doesn't mean he's any less of man!


Which leads to Sam and his complete loss of emotion. There's character progression, and then there is just character change. And I know, I know, it's early. This is probably some residual stuff from his time in hell...which is ANOTHER sticking point with me. Why does everyone think Sam's time in hell would have been worse with Dean's. I never understood that. Sam was in hell for what? A few days? A week? So, in hell-time a year or two? And he was in the cage battling Michael. A battle, which to me implies give and take. Dean had THIRTY years of being powerless, strung up on the rack tortured, with no way to fight back until those last 10 years. Sounds a little worse to me. Yes, it's early... and what the viewers also have to think about, is is this *really* Sam? Our Sam at least, and not some version of him? Dean was very different when he came back, and at this stage, we have no clue what he went through. It's down to a matter of opinion (once we know more) who had a worse time in hell, Dean or Sam. Their experiences will have been totally different I expect, so from that PoV I don't think it could even warrant a comparison.

I think it's the intention of the writers that he has a loss of emotion!


I thought Sam and Dean's reunion was so stiff and...boring.Again, I think it was meant to be. We had an emotional re-union in Lazarus Rising ... the same all over again would just be boring!


I DID like the new title card.
Agreed! :D


I loved Bobby in this episode. He at least is still the character I fell in love with.
Bobby is fantastic, my favourite character outside the boys! :D


I've watched the episode now two times and I liked it, but I did not love it.
Having watched it 3 times, I enjoy it more each time, and also pick up extra little details each time.

For instance, even though I saw it the 1st time, on re-watching I wonder if the way the flowers in Dean's garden were meant to be leaning towards 'Sam' as he pulled out of the drive, or whether that's just coincidence! :lol: My thinking here is that ... gah, was it Children should play... where the flowers were affected by something evil/dead etc?


and I loves "pest control" and "you won't believe what's living in some peoples walls, it's eating them up".
Loved that too... and about possums killing! :lol:


Hm, I guess my ambiguous feeling about this episode mirror Deans feelings, who can't be happy about the way Sam treated him Same here, I don't like the way Sam treated Dean either, particularly refusing the Impala keys with seemingly so little emotion; but whilst it bugs me, I'm confident that it's for a reason, and there's no need for people to start the low grade Sam bashing. He gets a raw deal from a lot of the fandom, and I think it's unfair most of the time. I'm a Dean girl through and through, but I try to still be objective and see the bigger picture. Hopefully I pull it off! :p


I liked Lisa, though I'm still not sold on her being "the one" for Dean. She's smart and strong and seems like she could handle the life and I like the actress well enough to be interested in seeing more of her. Though I don't picture them getting a happy ending. Dean doesn't seem particularly happy there, like he's staying more out of duty and because everyone expects him too. I think I'm still still bitter that they didn't bring Cassie back for this plotline.
I totally agree with you, apart from the bit about Cassie - I never took to her, and I'm glad they brought Lisa back and not her.


I think part of it might be that Jared Padalecki, fabulous guy that he is, is just not a great actor. I have mixed feelings about what you've said here. My personal feeling is that Jensen is the better actor of the two of them (based soley on what I've seen both of them in), yet I think Jared has shown himself to be a little more versatile as Sam. I think he's had to do that given the fact Sam as a character has changed so much. I've had my say on the lack of emotion, but I don't think that's because of Jared's acting abilities in any way. In fact, I think it takes quite a lot of skill to be that... cold! One of the times I've been most impressed with Jared's acting ability was when he was Lucifer, and in particular, in The End. That was Jared playing Mark Pellegrino playing Lucifer. He got the mannerisms just right, and that can't be easy to do. He was really creepy, and that to me, takes some doing.


Sam never did want to be like his family. I bet he's got his ipod deck and listens to emo rock with two guitars and a whole lot of complaining.
It would be very boring if he had the same musical tastes as Dean & John. Sam's the most open with his emotions, but that doesn't mean it's reflected in whatever his choice of music is. I'm an emotion person, and I own most of the songs used in Spn, and then some (99% heavy rock).... I don't sit around listening to sad songs just because I'm in touch with my feelings, and I don't think a character like Sam would either! I think that's an unfair stereotype.:S


I will always love Bobby. I think I was more panicked in Swan Song at the thought of him dying than the thought of Sam dying.
Have to agree with you. I was rather vocal when that happened!! :o It's not that I don't like Sam, because I really do, it was just that we knew Sam would be back... I wasn't sure about Bobby, given that they killed Ellen off, anything was possible! *sniff*


I always enjoy reading everyone's reviews, even if I totally disagree with them and why Sam's behaving like that, like it or not, is all part of the intrigue of the story. Your comment about Jared is totally unacceptable on here. Well it is by me. I hate to see these Supernatural threads (or any threads for that matter) reduced to character and actor bashing. Especially actor bashing. And this is how it starts.

No, actually it's not unacceptable. I'm sorry you feel differently, but it's neither character nor actor bashing. I don't think he's a great actor. He's good, and I obviously like him enough to watch his show, but no, I don't think he's great and sometimes I wonder if it affects how I perceive the character.
I think this is all about perception. In theory, saying someone's not a good actor *is* being negative about them. What one person thinks is bashing, obviously another may not, but negativity is negativity however it's intended.

I can understand where Lizzie's coming from in what she said, because a lot people don't necessarily know how much character bashing goes on in the fandom. When you see something time and time again, about a show, and in particular a character and/or actor you love, it invokes very strong feelings for people.

I basically stopped coming into the ep discussions because the overall tone of the thread I read, was pretty negative IMO. But that's just me. *shrugs* I love reading people's thoughts on the eps, but when you get down to the same people saying the same kind of things over and over, it gets old, and I really can't be bothered with it. I was hoping that by starting afresh with the new season, that wouldn't be the case, but sadly - for me at least - nothing has changed. :(


Yes, I call it critique. I'm sorry, but I genuinely don't think I crossed any line or was impolite but I'll try to remember to put my critiques on actors performances under spoiler tags so you don't have to see them.
I don't think putting things under tags is worth your time and effort tbh - people will still read them! :lol:


I certainly hope, as this season unfolds, those of you that didn't like the premiere will end up liking the overall direction of this season. Personally, I thought it was a really good premiere. Yeah, things have changed quite a bit. We knew they would from what TPTB stated during the hiatus. Let's give this a fair shot. I don't think Kripke would let them twist this show too much.
^^^ well said that man! :D


I liked the idea of the Campbell's but after showing them being better than everyone at the job they have been doing for generations it is kind of degrading for some people who didn't even know there were vampires still until they were in their 20s.

They would be great for a couple episodes but I won't be surprised if something happens and they get killed off.
I stay away from spoilers, so don't know details but I know it was reported that Corin has a 'recurring role' .... how recurring that is remains to be seen lol.

I hope all that makes sense, I was in a rush and it took longer than planned! :S

Ashizuri
September 28th, 2010, 08:24 AM
As to Sam driving a Dodge Charger. At least it's a muscle car and not some Prius. :D

I now have this image in my head of Sam and Dean hunting demons in a Prius and it will not go away. :lol:


First off, I totally respect that everyone has their opinions, which they are entitled to. My only question to you, and anyone else who are getting more and more disappointed with some of the eps, and in some cases, the series as a whole... if you're so unhappy with it, why the bloody hell are you still watching? :rolleyes: If I had such strong feeling against a series, I'd stop watching it.

As a whole, I really liked season 5, and the series itself is one of my favorites ever. So, I complain occasionally, but for the most part I love the crap out of this show. So yeah, if it seemed like my last post was full of rage, it really was just that episode. That being said, the more I love something the more likely I am to be critical of it. *shrugs*


Bobby is fantastic, my favourite character outside the boys! :D

I don't know if I could pick a favorite at this point. One episode it's Cas, and Crowley steals the show everytime he's on it, same with Bobby (and I will laugh forever about the iphone photo) but then Sam or Dean will do something amazing and I'll just settle on loving all of them. :D


One of the times I've been most impressed with Jared's acting ability was when he was Lucifer, and in particular, in The End.

I think his season 4 demon-blood filled loose-cannon Sam on a mission was his best season yet, I was consistently impressed with him.


I think that's an unfair stereotype.:S

I imagine my taste in music would be far closer to Sam's than anyone else's on the show, so I reall didn't mean that as an insult. He just very definitely seems the indie/emo rock kinda guy to me.


Have to agree with you. I was rather vocal when that happened!! :o It's not that I don't like Sam, because I really do, it was just that we knew Sam would be back... I wasn't sure about Bobby, given that they killed Ellen off, anything was possible! *sniff*

Exactly! They couldn't really kill Sam, he's Sammy and one-half of the reason this show is so awesome. I've never really been worried about either of the boys leaving, but Bobby I worry about every single season. And now Cas. They're both very much on the chopping block.


I think this is all about perception. In theory, saying someone's not a good actor *is* being negative about them. What one person thinks is bashing, obviously another may not, but negativity is negativity however it's intended.

Yeah, but I guess I don't see negativity as bashing.


I don't think putting things under tags is worth your time and effort tbh - people will still read them! :lol:

Probably not, curiousity does get the best of us, but at least then I wont feel bad for hurting someone's feelings if I've done my part to make sure they don't have to see my occasional negativity.


I stay away from spoilers, so don't know details but I know it was reported that Corin has a 'recurring role' .... how recurring that is remains to be seen lol.

He was the only Campbell that made me laugh, so if we have to see more of them, I hope it's him. Man, I was so excited for CN to be joining this show, but I'm torn now.

starg8fans
September 28th, 2010, 09:51 AM
I've been meaning to reply to this thread all day, but couldn't find a minute to do it. And now there's been so many replies and discussions, I doubt I'd be able to quote the relevant things if I tried. So I'm just gonna make a list, hope I won't forget anything.

@ Crichiel and Queen: I don't think it disqualifies you from being a fan of the show if you are disappointed with a few eps in a row. For me, there was a real slump in the middle of S4, and then it picked up again. Even bad Spn episodes are better than pretty much anything on TV, and it should be allowed to voice your concerns here. It makes for good discussion material, and Crichiel's post gave me plenty to think about.

First off, Jensen himself said he didn't like the new 'weak' Dean, and he tried to counteract the way he was written with his acting. And I think he made it work. I think it was pretty clear from the way he switched into 'hunter' mode when he heard that scream that he's not forgotten his skills, and if he seemed more nervous than usual that's not surprising, given that he was hunting solo without anybody having his back. I also agree with Queen that being a good husband and father, of holding down a steady job and - for God's sake - play golf does not 'emasculate' a guy. I can see Dean picking up that sport in order to 'blend in', something he has learned to do from an early age. Okay, the way he was freaking out when his third cousins touched his pictures was a bit much, but he's been working hard to keep that aspect of life away from his new family, and the disdain in their behaviour - and Sam's as well - as they 'inspected' his house was totally uncalled for.

I agree on the Campbells, they're cocky and obnoxious. Still, I'm holding out hope that both the chick and the blond guy are red shirts who are gonna bite the dust in the near future. And as several of you already pointed out, there's something fishy about Samuel. When he looked to the side after telling his sidekicks to take the Djinn without the boys knowing I almost expected his eyes to glow.

I also agree that Sam's lack of emotion when Dean hugged him had nothing to do with Jared's acting skills - he has proven often enough that he can do emotion really well - but was scripted. But be that as it may, I don't like the new hard-nosed Sam. The change came too suddenly. And it can't be explained what happened to him in the Pit - regardless of how long or how intense his stay was - but I figure that something of Lucifer's ruthlessness has remained in him.

Now, about the Impala. The fact that she's under a tarp to me is a symbol. A sign that Dean has put his life as a hunter on hold, but that he's not forgotten about it. When he offered the keys to Sam, he basically said good-bye for good. And I could have kicked the younger Winchester for brushing the offer off like that at first, but now it got me thinking. Maybe Sam wouldn't take her exactly for that reason. As long as Dean continues to drive his truck, he will still hold on to his new life. When we see him in the Impala, it will mean he's back. As for Sam's new car, I'm no expert on US models, but I thought it looked cool.

BTW, did everybody else pick up on the fact that the waitress was the Djinn and poisoned Dean when she ran her hand over his arm? I must admit I missed it on two watches, but my daughter pointed it out to me.

And like Lizzie, I gotta take a quick fangirl moment here. I LOVE Dean's longer hair. And the tucked in shirt. :o

warrior_chic
September 28th, 2010, 10:06 AM
Now, about the Impala. The fact that she's under a tarp to me is a symbol. A sign that Dean has put his life as a hunter on hold, but that he's not forgotten about it. When he offered the keys to Sam, he basically said good-bye for good. And I could have kicked the younger Winchester for brushing the offer off like that at first, but now it got me thinking. Maybe Sam wouldn't take her exactly for that reason. As long as Dean continues to drive his truck, he will still hold on to his new life. When we see him in the Impala, it will mean he's back. As for Sam's new car, I'm no expert on US models, but I thought it looked cool.

I agree. When Dean does come back and pulls the Impala out of storage, it'll be kinda like when he got her working again after the wreck way back when.


BTW, did everybody else pick up on the fact that the waitress was the Djinn and poisoned Dean when she ran her hand over his arm?

And I def didn't pick up on that. It makes so much more sense now.

And as far as Jared's acting-I can't say I've always like the characters he plays, but I figure he knows something about Sam and how he's changed that I don't, so I'm just gonna go with it.

Crichiel
September 28th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Crich, you know I don't mean offence in quoting you! :)

None taken! I know you well enough by now to know you aren't attacking me personally! And I hope you'll do the same. I am just trying to clarify my feelings here by addressing those things you brought up! :)




My only question to you, and anyone else who are getting more and more disappointed with some of the eps, and in some cases, the series as a whole... if you're so unhappy with it, why the bloody hell are you still watching? :rolleyes: If I had such strong feeling against a series, I'd stop watching it. I have better things to do with my time than b*tch about things I don't like. :mad:

Since I posted, I was waiting for someone to say this. Why? Because it is exactly what I scream at the computer to those who put up post after post trashing a show! :o I'm not one of those, as I HOPE you guys would know from everything else I say on the forum about Supernatural. I consider myself a true and loyal (read: obsessive) fan. And what on EARTH kind of 'real' fan would abandon their show because they didn't like 4 out of A HUNDRED AND FOUR episodes?! (ok, ok, 5 if you count Ghostfacers ;)). Especially since the first three I didn't like, wrapped up that particular storyline. This was the first episode of the new story, so that's why I am going to wait and see what happens. I didn't like Ghostfacers, and wasn't in awe of the next two eps either, but if I had quit watching then, I would have missed the awesomeness that was No Rest For the Wicked and all of season 4!! :eek:

But what I ALSO don't like are the fans that can't even acknowledge that any show, even at it's best, will have some missteps, some gaping plot holes, or (in this case) won't make every single fan happy. And I feel that you should be able to honestly say a show has faults without being told you aren't a fan anymore. On that subject, you guys are actually all really great at that. My opinion of you all when up when I saw that you could see that in me (I AM fan. Just didn't like a few eps.), DESPITE how my post sounded. ;) And just think, if no one had put anything negative on the boards for TPTB to see, we could have ended up with Bela for a heck of a lot longer! :eek:


The logical thing (IMO) to do in a case like that is give it up as a bad job. People get more and more fed up when they're let down, so I think there comes a point when you have to say enough is enough.

Again, in total agreement with you here. I don't stick with a 'bad' show out of some misguided loyalty. I loved the first 3 seasons of Smallville, so when it started to turn in season 4, I gave it a full season to see where it was headed. When it KEPT going down roads I rather not watch, I DID let it go. I can barely find the time to watch, and get on forums for shows that I LIKE, I'm not going to spend time on shows I don't! The difference is, I am nowhere NEAR the 'enough is enough' point with Supernatural. I still can't wait week to week to watch it, and love praising it with all of you on these threads. That's why I said I needed to get this out ONCE. You all know where I am at now. If it gets better (which I truly think it will), then I am excited to post discussions about how they turned me around. If it doesn't, then I am not going to waste your time OR mine whining and moaning each week.


I'm confused here. How exactly is Dean emasculated? :S Just because he's living a 'normal' life, doesn't mean he's any less of man!

Should have put this sentence together with the NEXT one. My bad. :o The emasculation for me was not the fact that he was a soccer dad, it was that he suddenly lost his innate hunting prowess and needed to be saved by everyone.




Bobby is fantastic, my favourite character outside the boys! :D

Man, I love Bobby!


and there's no need for people to start the low grade Sam bashing. He gets a raw deal from a lot of the fandom, and I think it's unfair most of the time. I'm a Dean girl through and through, but I try to still be objective and see the bigger picture. Hopefully I pull it off! :p

I have mixed feelings about what you've said here. My personal feeling is that Jensen is the better actor of the two of them...yet I think Jared has shown himself to be a little more versatile as Sam. I think he's had to do that given the fact Sam as a character has changed so much.

I think this is all about perception. In theory, saying someone's not a good actor *is* being negative about them. What one person thinks is bashing, obviously another may not, but negativity is negativity however it's intended.


I'm not going to get into it too much, because I am not a moderator, but yeah, everyone just step back a second and take a deep breath...;) I don't think the original comment was meant to come off as harsh as it sounded. It just could have maybe been phrased to be less of a personal attack on Jared. Saying "I think Jensen does a better job with these kinds of scenes" rather than "Jared is a bad actor", is kind of like the difference in saying, "She is better at handling the kids in these situations." vs. "You're a bad mom." That make sense? That said, there are also kinder ways to correct a posting faux pas. Kindness, please. :)

And as long as we're weighing in. I think at the beginning, Jensen WAS the better actor. And there are still scenes he does better, IMO (humour, and crying). But DeanGirl that I am, I freely admit Jared has brought his level up to Jensen's, and I would say in the cases of playing 'evil', even surpassed him (Born Under a Bad Sign still being my favourite 'Evil Sam').


I basically stopped coming into the ep discussions because the overall tone of the thread I read, was pretty negative IMO. But that's just me. *shrugs* I love reading people's thoughts on the eps, but when you get down to the same people saying the same kind of things over and over, it gets old, and I really can't be bothered with it. I was hoping that by starting afresh with the new season, that wouldn't be the case, but sadly - for me at least - nothing has changed. :(

I am sorry you feel that way, really. :( I actually thought that there was a regular love-fest going on for most of the episodes last year (I know I kind of made myself a little sick at all the gushing I was doing right up until the last couple eps! :P). Especially compared to every other fan forum I've been to for other shows. I loved it because it solidified for me how wonderful this show is by how little complaint it gets compared to those!


I don't think putting things under tags is worth your time and effort tbh - people will still read them! :lol:

I think about that all the time! I know I will pop open ANY spoiler tags I see! :D

Bagpuss
September 28th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Please remember that discussion within episode threads,like every other thread since January 09 is open to all opinions ,whether you ( the generalised "you" ) agree with the opinions expressed or not.
Expect to have your own opinions challenged ,and post with tact and respect for each other as fans and people.
Some posts were reported from this thread ,and the Mods feel that no lines were crossed into actor bashing,but that the tone in here was bordering on disrespect towards each other as SPN fans.
Qualified positivity and negativity are both acceptable.

You are ALL SPN fans and are ALL welcome to post your opinions of the show.
Remember that and give each other space .:D

Discuss,don't slam.If you really don't want to read opinions contrary to your own,then use your Ignore List.

Any issues/questions : pm any of the Mods. :)

Bagpuss
GateWorld Moderation Team.

queen_hathor
September 28th, 2010, 01:51 PM
As a whole, I really liked season 5, and the series itself is one of my favorites ever. So, I complain occasionally, but for the most part I love the crap out of this show. So yeah, if it seemed like my last post was full of rage, it really was just that episode. That being said, the more I love something the more likely I am to be critical of it. *shrugs*
I liked it too, though S4 is definitely my favourite, story wise. We *all* complain about certain things, because no-one's ever satisfied! But where's the fun in that? LOL

I huffed out an incredulous what?? when I read about being more critical because it made no sense to me, but then I thought about it and see where you're coming from. It's something we're obviously all passionate about, and though personally I think I'm less inclined to complain about it because overall, I think it's worth it. For me, Spn is 90% excellent, and there's not many programmes - if any - that I can say that about! :D


I don't know if I could pick a favorite at this point. One episode it's Cas, and Crowley steals the show everytime he's on it, same with Bobby (and I will laugh forever about the iphone photo) but then Sam or Dean will do something amazing and I'll just settle on loving all of them.
That's another good thing about Spn, they have *so* many great characters. I love Cas, and Crowley is jusy hilarious, but after Dean my heart belongs to Bobby. He had me from the get go!


I think his season 4 demon-blood filled loose-cannon Sam on a mission was his best season yet, I was consistently impressed with him.
Oh yes, I agree there... I like angry Sam, which I think Jared does a great job of! :D


I imagine my taste in music would be far closer to Sam's than anyone else's on the show, so I reall didn't mean that as an insult. He just very definitely seems the indie/emo rock kinda guy to me.
I wasn't insulted personally, I just thought it was an unfair assumption! I don't offend easily at all, just sometimes things build up and then I just blow! My Mum calls me her own private volcano! :rolleyes: But she's right, and it's only when I feel passionately about something! :p


Exactly! They couldn't really kill Sam, he's Sammy and one-half of the reason this show is so awesome. I've never really been worried about either of the boys leaving, but Bobby I worry about every single season. And now Cas. They're both very much on the chopping block.
We should stop saying things like this, we don't want to put a curse on it! :lol:


Yeah, but I guess I don't see negativity as bashing.
Again, it's all about perception and it's something people will always disagree on. It frustrates me when I see the beginning of something that could potentially turn into a round of character bashing. Sam does get a lot of negativity as a character (I've no idea about Jared, but I'm sure there's people out there who have really bad things to say about him unfortunately), and it's difficult sometimes. I hate to see anything really negative about a character in general (not specific to your comment, generally speaking), but some people get really carried away. I think Dean has a bigger fanbase (from what I've seen, though I could be wrong), and even as a Dean girl, I can see where people are totally biased. I feel like giving them a poke and saying 'oi, stop hero worshiping him, he has flaws too!' As do all the characters of course... personally I just think Dean has less! ;)


Probably not, curiousity does get the best of us, but at least then I wont feel bad for hurting someone's feelings if I've done my part to make sure they don't have to see my occasional negativity.
I understand that, and I think it's a nice gesture, not everyone's that considerate. :)


He was the only Campbell that made me laugh, so if we have to see more of them, I hope it's him. Man, I was so excited for CN to be joining this show, but I'm torn now.
I'd like to see him stick around, that way I can assess whether it was only Jonas I have a soft spot for as I've not seen Corin in anything else I don't think! :S


@ Crichiel and Queen: I don't think it disqualifies you from being a fan of the show if you are disappointed with a few eps in a row. For me, there was a real slump in the middle of S4, and then it picked up again. Even bad Spn episodes are better than pretty much anything on TV, and it should be allowed to voice your concerns here. It makes for good discussion material, and Crichiel's post gave me plenty to think about.
Disqualification doesn't come into it. I'm talking about the people who aren't happy unless they can find something to moan about. There's eps that I don't like, and those that are weaker than others because no show is perfect.

I also don't think that these discussions can stay as 'discussions' for long. I read a lot of the S5 threads even though I didn't post, and at some point they all become a slanging match or an argument. Often there's a taking sides of a character etc., and that doesn't count as a discussion to me...or certainly not one I want to be part of. It spoils my enjoyment of itm and although I'm a whumper, I'm not a masochist, and I'm not going to subject myself to something that only depresses me! LOL


First off, Jensen himself said he didn't like the new 'weak' Dean, and he tried to counteract the way he was written with his acting.
I've heard there was more to the interview than that, but it's spoilery so I've not read it. I wonder if there's other stuff lined up that he's referring to. *mind starts whirring* :p


Now, about the Impala. The fact that she's under a tarp to me is a symbol. A sign that Dean has put his life as a hunter on hold, but that he's not forgotten about it. When he offered the keys to Sam, he basically said good-bye for good. And I could have kicked the younger Winchester for brushing the offer off like that at first, but now it got me thinking. Maybe Sam wouldn't take her exactly for that reason. As long as Dean continues to drive his truck, he will still hold on to his new life. When we see him in the Impala, it will mean he's back.
He's a hunter, always has been and it's not going away just because he's playing house with a pretty girl and a kid! He'll be back soon enough, and though it was Sam who wanted Dean to go to Lisa, I think he realises that it can't last. Dean's not stupid, he knows it too, he just needs time to see that. I hope it's soon though! :p


BTW, did everybody else pick up on the fact that the waitress was the Djinn and poisoned Dean when she ran her hand over his arm? I must admit I missed it on two watches, but my daughter pointed it out to me.
LOL, that'd be a resounding YES!!! All the waitresses were dressed the same, but she was only one covered it tattoos! It's those subtle (or in some cases, not so subtle) details that matter with Spn. Some of us are more observant that others... and some of us are just freaky that way! ;)


And like Lizzie, I gotta take a quick fangirl moment here. I LOVE Dean's longer hair. And the tucked in shirt. :o
I didn't like that in the promo pics, but in motion... oh hell yes! :o Oh, and the GTOY!! *happy, happy sigh*


None taken! I know you well enough by now to know you aren't attacking me personally! And I hope you'll do the same. I am just trying to clarify my feelings here by addressing those things you brought up!
You don't know how good that is to hear. I've been burned before in other threads by people b*tching because I chose their post to quote! :rolleyes:


Since I posted, I was waiting for someone to say this. Why? Because it is exactly what I scream at the computer to those who put up post after post trashing a show! I'm not one of those, as I HOPE you guys would know from everything else I say on the forum about Supernatural. I consider myself a true and loyal (read: obsessive) fan. And what on EARTH kind of 'real' fan would abandon their show because they didn't like 4 out of A HUNDRED AND FOUR episodes?! (ok, ok, 5 if you count Ghostfacers ;-)). Especially since the first three I didn't like, wrapped up that particular storyline. This was the first episode of the new story, so that's why I am going to wait and see what happens. I didn't like Ghostfacers, and wasn't in awe of the next two eps either, but if I had quit watching then, I would have missed the awesomeness that was No Rest For the Wicked and all of season 4!! :-o
I've never given up on a program that I'm aware of, but *if* I didn't like it or got disillusioned I would. Maybe I've just spent too long in the CW lounge!

Oh totally agree on Ghostfacers... I hate that episode with a passion!! :mad:


But what I ALSO don't like are the fans that can't even acknowledge that any show, even at it's best, will have some missteps, some gaping plot holes, or (in this case) won't make every single fan happy. And I feel that you should be able to honestly say a show has faults without being told you aren't a fan anymore. On that subject, you guys are actually all really great at that. My opinion of you all when up when I saw that you could see that in me (I AM fan. Just didn't like a few eps.), DESPITE how my post sounded. And just think, if no one had put anything negative on the boards for TPTB to see, we could have ended up with Bela for a heck of a lot longer! :eek:

OMG, don't even joke about that!!! *shudders* :lol:


Should have put this sentence together with the NEXT one. My bad. The emasculation for me was not the fact that he was a soccer dad, it was that he suddenly lost his innate hunting prowess and needed to be saved by everyone.
Okey doke, I was just puzzled by it. Doesn't take much! :p

I'm not going to get into it too much, because I am not a moderator

<snipped for time and me having a headache>

[/quote]
Well I *am* a mod on 2 forums, and you don't need to be to say something sensible! I think you hit the nail on the head. There's a way to say things, it's just difficult when things are written because there's no tone of voice to go off.


And as long as we're weighing in. I think at the beginning, Jensen WAS the better actor. And there are still scenes he does better, IMO (humour, and crying). But DeanGirl that I am, I freely admit Jared has brought his level up to Jensen's, and I would say in the cases of playing 'evil', even surpassed him (Born Under a Bad Sign still being my favourite 'Evil Sam').
Jared has definitely improved, no doubt about it. And I love him in BUABS!


I am sorry you feel that way, really. I actually thought that there was a regular love-fest going on for most of the episodes last year
I think they started off that way, and then went horribly wrong! :lol:


I think about that all the time! I know I will pop open ANY spoiler tags I see!
It's like a flashing sign saying 'open me now' :lol: Though I do resist when I know if might actually contain an actual spoiler!

warrior_chic
September 28th, 2010, 02:16 PM
This is completely meaningless, so ignore if you wish. I just feel like I have to say this since there's no one home to talk to. Although, I've talked to myself before. Anywho, on the topic of spoiler tags.

In an interview with Jensen I read yesterday, they put all the spoilery stuff in white so i just looked like a big space. I would be so unobservant to just skip over those. These spoiler tags though are like giant flashing neon signs. And since I have no self control, I can't help but open :P

I now return you to the relevant topics at hand.

padr49904
September 28th, 2010, 02:32 PM
I have to open the spoiler tags but most of them time they are a let down because there is not really much out there.

I did like Corin in this episode but the other 2 cousins were just kind of boring and really just seemed to be there to add some family to it.

I wonder if a person would go back over everything they would find at least a small mention of Campbell in the background conversation that goes on because they seemed to be pretty good.

Goodbye for a while Im watching all 5 seasons over to see if I can find anything someone might of missed about them.

warrior_chic
September 28th, 2010, 02:50 PM
On the subject of Sam's reaction to their reunion: I'm looking at a cap of the hug, and at least in this frame, he looks relieved more than anything. I would have expected more, but I guess since he knew Dean was safe, he wouldn't have gone through the same emotions Dean went through. Now I'm thinking, he's been with the Campbells for a year, and if I remember right, he never met Samuel, so they're basically strangers to him. Now I can kinda see that his reaction was maybe more of having someone familiar and trusted back with him. However, without a rewatch (again), I don't really know if any of this can apply to the rest of the ep.

starg8fans
September 28th, 2010, 10:17 PM
This is completely meaningless, so ignore if you wish. I just feel like I have to say this since there's no one home to talk to. Although, I've talked to myself before. Anywho, on the topic of spoiler tags.

In an interview with Jensen I read yesterday, they put all the spoilery stuff in white so i just looked like a big space. I would be so unobservant to just skip over those. These spoiler tags though are like giant flashing neon signs. And since I have no self control, I can't help but open :P

I now return you to the relevant topics at hand.

The problem with white font is that when you quote the post the whole thing shows up in black on white at the top of your own post.

Oh, and for those of us who are spoiler junkies - got a link to that interview, please? ;)


I have to open the spoiler tags but most of them time they are a let down because there is not really much out there.

I agree, TPTB are doing a great job whetting our appetite but even if you think they revealed a major plot device there's usually something even bigger around the corner.


I did like Corin in this episode but the other 2 cousins were just kind of boring and really just seemed to be there to add some family to it.

To me they seem like 'red shirts' who will be killed off PDQ - but that might only be wishful thinking on my part.


I wonder if a person would go back over everything they would find at least a small mention of Campbell in the background conversation that goes on because they seemed to be pretty good.

Goodbye for a while Im watching all 5 seasons over to see if I can find anything someone might of missed about them.

A very worthy cause, and any reason for a re-watch is a good one. :D I think I'm gonna have another look at In the Beginning and The Song Remains the Same. Actually, in the latter John said something about being glad to meet somebody from Mary's side of the family - so it looks like she kept them away from him, for obvious reasons, and like someone said, the more distant relatives might not even have known her married name.


On the subject of Sam's reaction to their reunion: I'm looking at a cap of the hug, and at least in this frame, he looks relieved more than anything. I would have expected more, but I guess since he knew Dean was safe, he wouldn't have gone through the same emotions Dean went through. Now I'm thinking, he's been with the Campbells for a year, and if I remember right, he never met Samuel, so they're basically strangers to him. Now I can kinda see that his reaction was maybe more of having someone familiar and trusted back with him. However, without a rewatch (again), I don't really know if any of this can apply to the rest of the ep.

My own impression was more along the lines of 'bemused' - like a parent indulging an over enthusiastic kid. Maybe the Campbells conceit of being THE hunting family and teaching him 'stuff your daddy never dreamed of' has rubbed off on him. He's been with them a whole year after all. It just feels strange that there wasn't the slightest hint of regret. If he wanted Dean to have his apple pie life and Sam's just about to ruin that for him that's the emotion I would have looked for.

warrior_chic
September 29th, 2010, 06:02 AM
Oh, and for those of us who are spoiler junkies - got a link to that interview, please? ;)



Now, I speak Spanish, not Portuguese, so I can't tell you how of this is a correct translation. But I guess that's what dictionaries are for so it's probably fairly accurate.

http://ditta-spn.livejournal.com/18365.html

Crichiel
September 29th, 2010, 06:57 AM
http://ditta-spn.livejournal.com/18365.html

Great article! Thanks, wc!

Back on topic for a minute here:




I rather hope they aren't bad because it gives the brothers a connection to their mother.


Forgot, I was going to comment on this earlier. If this were REAL life, I would absolutely want the boys to have the Campbells around for that connection with family. But DRAMATICALLY? Nah, I like that it's Sam and Dean (and Bobby) against the world. Makes them cooler in my eyes! I like the emo! :D

A couple other points I DID like that I forgot to mention:

-I'm with stars on the symbolism of the Impala being tucked away in the garage. I think it is a great storytelling device that demonstrates Dean's state of mind. So I am fine with it...for NOW. But she better come out of retirement pdq!! ;)

-I was very happy to hear that, promise or not, Dean didn't let it go. He scoured the books trying to find a way to save Sam. That's the Winchester "Family First" attitude I've missed!! :)

warrior_chic
September 29th, 2010, 08:48 AM
Forgot, I was going to comment on this earlier. If this were REAL life, I would absolutely want the boys to have the Campbells around for that connection with family. But DRAMATICALLY? Nah, I like that it's Sam and Dean (and Bobby) against the world. Makes them cooler in my eyes! I like the emo! :D

Not only is it better for the story, but Mary herself was trying to get away from that aspect of the family. To me, the essence of Mary is her maternal side- wanting to raise her boys in a safe, normal environment. Not to say she wouldn't have wanted them around their grandparents, but the Campbells as they stand now are representing everything that Mary wanted to get away from. Maybe if they could make Samuel more of a grandpa and less of a hunter in the boys' eyes.



-I was very happy to hear that, promise or not, Dean didn't let it go. He scoured the books trying to find a way to save Sam. That's the Winchester "Family First" attitude I've missed!! :)

I miss it too. I've been yelling at the TV (or computer) for the last 2 months about they boys fighting and not trusting each other. Even though they have full right to at this point. I just love them more when they're willing, and do, sacrifice themselves for each other. But that may be the big sister coming out in me :)

LoneStar1836
September 29th, 2010, 11:30 AM
First and foremost, how do all the hunters make money? There are like 30 we have seen and they can't all be running credit card scams.We've seen them hustle pool and gamble at cards.

Bobby runs a junk yard. So while the brothers are drifters, other hunters may be more stable and work legit jobs to make money.


Not only is it better for the story, but Mary herself was trying to get away from that aspect of the family. To me, the essence of Mary is her maternal side- wanting to raise her boys in a safe, normal environment. Not to say she wouldn't have wanted them around their grandparents, but the Campbells as they stand now are representing everything that Mary wanted to get away from. Maybe if they could make Samuel more of a grandpa and less of a hunter in the boys' eyes.True. I hadn't looked at it that way.

Like I said, I'm in wait and see mode as to how they will ultimately play into the story arc for this season. But yeah, the two red shirt cousins can well...play their assigned roles as red shirts. ;) I have no interest in them.






This is completely meaningless, so ignore if you wish. I just feel like I have to say this since there's no one home to talk to. Although, I've talked to myself before. Anywho, on the topic of spoiler tags.

In an interview with Jensen I read yesterday, they put all the spoilery stuff in white so i just looked like a big space. I would be so unobservant to just skip over those. These spoiler tags though are like giant flashing neon signs. And since I have no self control, I can't help but open :P

I now return you to the relevant topics at hand.Heh, that's the old school way to spoiler. :D People used to do that (or leave a big blank space warning that spoilers were to follow) on Gateworld before they implemented the current spoiler code.

Ashizuri
September 29th, 2010, 12:15 PM
Bobby runs a junk yard. So while the brothers are drifters, other hunters may be more stable and work legit jobs to make money.

It didn't last long, but Ellen had the Roadhouse. I imagine quite a few hunters have legit jobs on the side.

iolanda
September 29th, 2010, 12:34 PM
It didn't last long, but Ellen had the Roadhouse. I imagine quite a few hunters have legit jobs on the side.

But Ellen wasn't a hunter back then. I can imagine, that pest control isn't the worst method to combine a regular job with the family business.

Crichiel
September 29th, 2010, 12:52 PM
It didn't last long, but Ellen had the Roadhouse. I imagine quite a few hunters have legit jobs on the side.

Was Ellen technically a hunter when she ran the Roadhouse (before Jo became one)? Didn't she just compile info for other hunters and provide a safe place for them?

Ashizuri
September 29th, 2010, 12:57 PM
But Ellen wasn't a hunter back then. I can imagine, that pest control isn't the worst method to combine a regular job with the family business.

I always though she was more than a little involved in the hunting business if not actively hunting at the time, involved in the war via information trading and a gathering place. This could be a YMMV type thing though.

starg8fans
September 29th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Okay, I have a really far out theory to throw out here. Do you figure Samuel may have taken the Djinn away to milk it of its poison? That the fact that he's been feeding small doses to Sam is why he seemed so spaced out in the last ep? I mean, the visions show you your worst nightmares. It could be that Sam's worst nightmare is that Dean is now 'domesticated' and unfit to be a hunter anymore, and that he'll have to hunt on his own from now on without his brother having his back.

Heaven
September 29th, 2010, 01:35 PM
this was really uneventful for a season premiere
I guess I just got used for the season openers to be big impact episodes like
In My Time of Dying, The Magnificent Seven, Lazarus Rising, Sympathy for the Devil
this was definitely not it

Crichiel
September 29th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Okay, I have a really far out theory to throw out here. Do you figure Samuel may have taken the Djinn away to milk it of its poison? That the fact that he's been feeding small doses to Sam is why he seemed so spaced out in the last ep? I mean, the visions show you your worst nightmares. It could be that Sam's worst nightmare is that Dean is now 'domesticated' and unfit to be a hunter anymore, and that he'll have to hunt on his own from now on without his brother having his back.

Yeah, that's pretty far out there...but AWESOME!! That would be a cool twist!

warrior_chic
September 29th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Okay, I have a really far out theory to throw out here. Do you figure Samuel may have taken the Djinn away to milk it of its poison? That the fact that he's been feeding small doses to Sam is why he seemed so spaced out in the last ep? I mean, the visions show you your worst nightmares. It could be that Sam's worst nightmare is that Dean is now 'domesticated' and unfit to be a hunter anymore, and that he'll have to hunt on his own from now on without his brother having his back.

At this point, I wouldn't put it past The All Mighty Writers to do something like this. They seem to get a kick out of throwing us around.

starg8fans
September 29th, 2010, 10:01 PM
this was really uneventful for a season premiere
I guess I just got used for the season openers to be big impact episodes like
In My Time of Dying, The Magnificent Seven, Lazarus Rising, Sympathy for the Devil
this was definitely not it

Personally, I think The Magnificent Seven was weaker than this season's opener.


Yeah, that's pretty far out there...but AWESOME!! That would be a cool twist!

Almost there - only one more day until we find out more!


At this point, I wouldn't put it past The All Mighty Writers to do something like this. They seem to get a kick out of throwing us around.

Which is why we love this show, right? It does the totally unexpected. When I think of that crash at the end of S1 or sending Dean to hell in S3... Man, I was so glad I was still catching up at those times and could go straight to the next season opener. If I had to wait all summer for the continuation it would have seriously impacted my sanity. Although I guess Lucifer Rising wasn't far behind.

But getting back to the discussion, Sera said she kinda wanted to present the Pilot but the other way round. So apart from Sam coming for Dean, and Dean living the 'normal' life and being reluctant to go back to hunting, any other similarities? I guess the main difference is that Dean did not go with Sam this time.

warrior_chic
September 30th, 2010, 04:34 AM
But getting back to the discussion, Sera said she kinda wanted to present the Pilot but the other way round. So apart from Sam coming for Dean, and Dean living the 'normal' life and being reluctant to go back to hunting, any other similarities? I guess the main difference is that Dean did not go with Sam this time.

Well, Dean didn't really lose anyone like Sam lost Jessica. With the other similarities, maybe it's kinda like what might've happened if Jessica didn't die. I'm not sure I'm gonna make too much sense here, but sorta like all the SG alternate realities we've seen, this could have been our SPN AR. We can kinda see how the story may have gone if Sam didn't just jump right back in.

And not so much a similarity as a complete opposite- in the pilot, it all started cuz John was missing. This time 'round, instead of missing family, they had all kinds of family coming out of nowhere.

Heaven
September 30th, 2010, 07:13 AM
seriously I need something bigger looming than all the nasty creatures coming out from under their rocks.
this is boring

starg8fans
September 30th, 2010, 11:50 AM
seriously I need something bigger looming than all the nasty creatures coming out from under their rocks.
this is boring

Then watch something else that's more up your alley, and leave Spn to those of us who still enjoy it.

Crichiel
September 30th, 2010, 12:27 PM
seriously I need something bigger looming than all the nasty creatures coming out from under their rocks.
this is boring

Perfect example of what we were discussing earlier! THIS is the kind of "This show is awful" post, with no actual explanation or invitation to discuss opinions where *I* say, "Then why watch?" AND spend your valuable time just to post, "I hate this."?!

the fifth man
September 30th, 2010, 06:37 PM
Then watch something else that's more up your alley, and leave Spn to those of us who still enjoy it.

I know I am still enjoying it. Personally, I can't wait for tomorrow night to get here.

Heaven
September 30th, 2010, 06:41 PM
wow calm down people. no need to crucify
I don't hate this, I love this show
every show has ups and downs, I'm just expressing my displease with the recent episode because I thought it was boring
I'm sure any of you can think of at least one episode you didn't quite enjoy

keep in mind that I don't read spoilers.and I was anticipating more in the premiere

warrior_chic
September 30th, 2010, 06:47 PM
I think part of our collective problem with this ep is that it was such a sudden shift in story line. After 2 years of angels/demons/Apocalypse, distant cousins and Djinn are just such completely different elements that, if or one, am left just a little off balance.

the fifth man
September 30th, 2010, 06:50 PM
I think part of our collective problem with this ep is that it was such a sudden shift in story line. After 2 years of angels/demons/Apocalypse, distant cousins and Djinn are just such completely different elements that, if or one, am left just a little off balance.

Trust me, we aren't done with them. Not by a long shot.

warrior_chic
September 30th, 2010, 06:51 PM
This is only sorta related: but if Sam came back after jumping in the cage, does that mean Adam might be back?

Crichiel
September 30th, 2010, 06:57 PM
This is only sorta related: but if Sam came back after jumping in the cage, does that mean Adam might be back?

I have sadly thought of that, too. Don't get me wrong, I loved the actor's performance, but adding him was like adding the Campbells. I just really like the special closeness it gives Sam and Dean that they only have each other.

Heaven
September 30th, 2010, 07:03 PM
Trust me, we aren't done with them. Not by a long shot.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: spoiler tag dude!


better question is why Samuel? why not mommy and daddy (are they even in heaven?)

the fifth man
September 30th, 2010, 07:08 PM
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: spoiler tag dude!


better question is why Samuel? why not mommy and daddy (are they even in heaven?)

That was my opinion, not a fact. Why would they not show angels or demons again? No need for spoiler tags.

Heaven
September 30th, 2010, 07:11 PM
thanks for clearing this up then :)

starg8fans
October 1st, 2010, 04:48 AM
wow calm down people. no need to crucify
I don't hate this, I love this show
every show has ups and downs, I'm just expressing my displease with the recent episode because I thought it was boring
I'm sure any of you can think of at least one episode you didn't quite enjoy

keep in mind that I don't read spoilers.and I was anticipating more in the premiere

Sorry, but your posts sounded too much like you just wanted to flame the show. There are quite a few people here who were underwhelmed with this season premiere, but we all found something positive to say about it as well. You know, shades of grey, not just black and white. And of course you're entitled to your opinion, but 'boring' is not something I would associate with this ep or Spn in general.


:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: spoiler tag dude!

better question is why Samuel? why not mommy and daddy (are they even in heaven?)

That is a good question. And it makes me think more than ever that Samuel is not what he seems to be, maybe something that would be incapable of faking the emotions that would be associated with the boys being reunited with their parents. I mean, let's face it, Samuel has come across as one hard nosed SOB.


That was my opinion, not a fact. Why would they not show angels or demons again? No need for spoiler tags.

It's an educated guess, especially since the issue of Bobby's soul is not resolved yet. It would be very OOC for this show if it left a thread like that hanging.

Crichiel
October 1st, 2010, 10:04 AM
Sorry, but your posts sounded too much like you just wanted to flame the show. There are quite a few people here who were underwhelmed with this season premiere, but we all found something positive to say about it as well. You know, shades of grey, not just black and white. And of course you're entitled to your opinion, but 'boring' is not something I would associate with this ep or Spn in general.


Also because you got on here not once, but twice, to say basically the same thing.

Say, did anyone else think the neighbour guy (Sid?), seemed like kind of an odd friend choice for Dean to hang out with? I know he was the next door neighbour, so maybe they became friends through proximity. But still, he didn't seem like the type of person even a domesticated Dean would go to the bar with. *shrugs*

starg8fans
October 1st, 2010, 02:49 PM
Also because you got on here not once, but twice, to say basically the same thing.

Say, did anyone else think the neighbour guy (Sid?), seemed like kind of an odd friend choice for Dean to hang out with? I know he was the next door neighbour, so maybe they became friends through proximity. But still, he didn't seem like the type of person even a domesticated Dean would go to the bar with. *shrugs*

Now that you mention it - you're absolutely right. I can only imagine that he was the kind of person who talks a lot and therefore didn't ask too many questions. I mean, he said it himself, it took him almost a year to realize he didn't know anything about Dean.

warrior_chic
October 1st, 2010, 03:45 PM
Also because you got on here not once, but twice, to say basically the same thing.

Say, did anyone else think the neighbour guy (Sid?), seemed like kind of an odd friend choice for Dean to hang out with? I know he was the next door neighbour, so maybe they became friends through proximity. But still, he didn't seem like the type of person even a domesticated Dean would go to the bar with. *shrugs*

He did seem a little weird for Dean, but maybe so he could be a redshirt. And I also don't see Dean going out to find friends, so he probably just started with whoever was closest.

SheppAddictedFangirl
October 2nd, 2010, 05:15 AM
All right, I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. I kept my mouth shut on the Swan Song thread (except to express my displeasure at the ep in general ;)) because I didn't want to be the buzzkill. But if I do that everytime I am unhappy, I am worried with the way the last four eps have gone that I won't be able to post much. :(

WARNING: I am really really REALLY going to lay into the episode here. So, if that bothers you, go ahead and skip this entire post. If it doesn't bother you, feel free to read, and if you disagree, I totally understand and respect that, and would love to hear couterpoints. But PLEASE don't flame me, I am just expressing my opinion. :o

First and foremost: Lose. :mad: The. :mad: Campbells. :mad::mad::mad: I wasn't happy with this development since it first got spoilered.

While I like the time travel episodes in general, I was never happy with the idea that Mary came from a hunting family. For one thing, I liked the idea of Mary (and John) being totally innocent and unaware of the hunting world and being thrust into it when it come out of nowhere. Sam and Dean are no longer special, doing a job that no one else can or will do. With all these hunting Campbells, you've taken the thing that defines Sam and (especially Dean), and made them....common. :( Not only are they not unique in the world, they aren't even special within their own family! There are relatives coming out left and right, all of whom were brought up in the business and (at this point) being portrayed as superior in hunting to Sam and Dean. They are tougher, more knowledgeable, been doing it longer...yada yada yada. They are making Sam and Dean come off as ineffective amateurs. I thought TPTB said they learned their lesson with Bela. Don't bring in new characters that are going to make your heroes look weak or stupid.

Which brings me to Dean's emasculation. He seemed WAY too comfortable living the suburban lifestyle. I mean, whatever the circumstances, this is still Dean we are talking about, right? Or maybe not. Aside from the one snide comment that it's "almost like I'm a professional", he sure didn't come off as our hero in this episode. He's THAT rusty after a YEAR?!! Give me a break. Sam was out for years at Stanford and had no problem getting back into the swing of things. (He had to adjust to the emotion of hunting again, but he was still good at the actual hunting, starting with the pilot). Of course, Sam wasn't that wonderful either. Sam couldn't take out one Djinn in a fight? Grandpa had to save him? Which then gives Sam the chance to go save Dean, because Dean isn't strong enough to fight either. :rolleyes:

Which leads to Sam and his complete loss of emotion. There's character progression, and then there is just character change. And I know, I know, it's early. This is probably some residual stuff from his time in hell...which is ANOTHER sticking point with me. Why does everyone think Sam's time in hell would have been worse with Dean's. I never understood that. Sam was in hell for what? A few days? A week? So, in hell-time a year or two? And he was in the cage battling Michael. A battle, which to me implies give and take. Dean had THIRTY years of being powerless, strung up on the rack tortured, with no way to fight back until those last 10 years. Sounds a little worse to me.

Back to Grandpa Winchester. "You're a Campbell." I'm sorry, I fell in love with these WINCHESTER brothers. They were raised by John, you guys just showed up. That's like a birth parent showing up and telling the kid they're adopted family isn't their 'real' family, blood is more important (which isn't even a convincing argument because they ARE also Winchesters by blood). "Stick around, I'll show you things your daddy never even dreamed of."? Sure, why not? Let's take another of the show's coolest, most beloved characters, John, and say how flawed he was as a hunter as well. :rolleyes:

Couple other nitpicks as long as I'm at it :o: I thought Sam and Dean's reunion was so stiff and...boring. Even from the clip that was released ahead of time, I could tell immediately that the YED was either dream/hallucination something, the soft rock song at the beginning? I know it highlighted Dean's new life, but it's the season premiere, for criminy's sake, I want the usual "get psyched" AC/DC of past years. The boring song just capped off a boring episode. Sam, a new Dodge Charger? Really? If you are going with a Charger, at least go for the Dukes of Hazard era one! And finally, where was the humour?!! There was, what, like 3 sarcastic lines?

Ok, what DID I like? Give me a second...;)...No, I DID like the new title card. Dream or not, I LOVE Fred Lehne's YED, so i was happy to see him. I did like that they didn't SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) Ben. They used the same actor, so he was the correct age. I liked Dean's relationship with Lisa. I, surprisingly, have always thought that they are a great match. She's strong enough to handle him. I liked going back to the Djinn. I loved Bobby in this episode. He at least is still the character I fell in love with.

And that's the crux of my complaints with this episode, I think the STORY had to going in a new direction after the apocalypse, but I disagree that the CHARACTERS had to. I fell in love with a show about 2 brothers. Dean, who was cocky, funny, and a scary-good hunter, with a lot of supressed emotion. Now this is a family guy, who isn't confident, isn't funny, and can't hunt worth a d***. Sam who was sweet, sympathetic, and a really good hunter, but one who didn't do it mindlessly, he wouldn't blindly kill Lenore just because she was a vampire. Now, he is cold, apathetic, and a better hunter than Dean, but not as good as The Amazing Campbells, but will kill mindlessly and needs DEAN to ground him. These are completely different people than the ones I loved watching each week. Even before I watched this show regularly, when I caught it here and there, I thought the stories and characters were wonderful (it was just too scary or confusing to watch). If I had seen this episode without knowing the show, I would have said, "Meh." And not have watched another one.

Fortunately, I DO know this show. And I will absolutely give them time to unfold the seasonlong story before final judgement. For the last 3 episodes of last season, I could see this heading in a direction I wasn't thrilled with. But everyone kept saying, "Have faith, have faith. I have faith because they have never disappointed us before." They did disappointed me last year, but I did have faith, I DO have faith. I am not giving up on the show, I'm not going to stop watching, I am fully aware that we can't tell what's going to happen from the first episode and that there COULD be an overall grand plan that turns out to be awesome in the end. But right now, I am not impressed. (And for the record, I don't blame Sera, or the fact that Kripke is gone. I was angry at Swan Song when Eric was still around full-time). But again, I seem to be the sole voice of dissent. The show can't please everyone and from what you guys have said, you're all very pleased. So, unfortunately in this case, I'm the one who isn't going to be pleased. What a bummer.

So sorry to buzzkill. I just had to vent it all once (especially since I was carrying this feeling all summer). I now return you to your regularly scheduled, Happy Supernatural Obsessed Crichiel. :D * she says as she scarily reaches for the 'submit reply' button in fear of what everyone's going to do to her when they read this...* :S

You´re not alone. I wasn´t really thrilled with the episode either. Haven´t watched the full ep, because my old computer crashed during the middle, but I wasn´t really eager to start it up again either. Which is a shame, since I really used to love the show. The introduction of Adam soured it for me, SWAN SONG ruined it, I´m afraid. :(

I did think they would pick up again, and maybe they will. I agree with almost everything you just said, except one: I thought their reasons for NOT telling Dean that Sam was out (and safe and sound) sucked! Especially since both, Bobby and Sam still knew the hell-on-Earth that Sam was going through when Dean was the one stuck in hell. For far longer (as Crichiel pointed out).

How does everyody expect Dean to just enjoy the apple-pie life Sam told him to live, while it´s always running in the back of his mind that his brother suffers through agony and torture? Sam himself wasn´t able to let it all go, and he was told basically the same by Dean before his time ran out. As Dean said, "If anyone could relate...".

Well, nice going of the gang to let Dean in the belief that his brother is suffering eternal torture while he´s out and about with his long-lost family. That really didn´t sit right with me and none of their arguements helped their case, I´m afraid.

That said, I´m curious how the whole "Grandpa is back" plan will play out, so I will stay tuned for future eps.

LtColCarter
October 5th, 2010, 12:05 PM
Good episode...I did enjoying seeing the brothers back in action, but IDK...I felt the episode was lacking something. I can't quite place what it was missing...just a feeling. But I did enjoy it.