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bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 04:25 AM
I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.

The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. Civilians (at least those from a democratic societies like in the west) don't like to live in an autocratic society because unless we make the choice to give up our democratic rights to be part of the military it makes us feel vulnerable and out of control. This impulse is ingrained in us our whole lives by the example of "reigns of terror" and all the other nasty things that other autocratic societies have done and suffered and how they have ultimately failed.

What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.

The problem occurs when the power is inherited, and instead of being given to the one who can do it is given to the son of the one who can do it (did you know that the Roman Emperor Nero was the son of a much loved and respected general? His is an extreme example). Or when the society grows so large and the civilians vastly outnumber the military and so they are not represented.

This is where BSG and SGU are different. BSG had a huge civilian population and so required a democratic system. There are less than 80 people on Destiny, at least a 3rd of them military, in a position where one person must be in charge - there is no time to vote on all decisons.

And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?

I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.

The way I see it, Young has made 3 mistakes. He slept with a subordinate officer, he balked at sacrificing Rush (as he saw it - if he had known it was Telford I think he would have done it with the knowledge that Telford had volunteered to endanger himself when he joined the airforce) and he marooned Rush. The thing with Rush though I even can explain - the guy pretty much told him "I am never going to stop trying to undermine/kill you". As I say the safety of the crew requires that one person be in command and anyone who goes against that is endangering everyone. That is after all what mutiny IS and why it is so harshly punished. I have always seen Young like the Captain of an old sailing ship. These guys would be referred to as "Master After God" because of the power they had, and needed. They were out of touch with their superiors for months at least with hundred(s) of people to look after and the need to survive all sorts of things, including enemy action.

Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.

MattSilver 3k
June 17th, 2010, 04:37 AM
I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

The whole post is a good point, but first off I'd like to address this last part: Do you mean in a "Oh, I don't want to disagree with the guys that run this place on the podcast" way or a "Please don't rip me apart general Gateworld population for disagreeing with the podcast" or...? 'Cause if it's either of those two or something similar, just know that people are allowed to have opinions different than people in high positions.

I think Young's mistakes and flaws as leader are evident, but damn it all if he's not the best for the job in my mind. I'd rather him than Wray (Simply because I doubt she has the control to handle things in a crisis and the military doesn't respect her) and Rush (Because seriously, he's basically as crazy as Young but in a "hey, as long as it benefits me!" way instead of Young's "whatever I can do to keep as many of us alive" way", barring a few exceptions on both sides).

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 04:43 AM
The whole post is a good point, but first off I'd like to address this last part: Do you mean in a "Oh, I don't want to disagree with the guys that run this place on the podcast" way or a "Please don't rip me apart general Gateworld population for disagreeing with the podcast" or...? 'Cause if it's either of those two or something similar, just know that people are allowed to have opinions different than people in high positions.


I don't like to disagree with D+D because they consistently provide the viewpoint that I agree with the most, and often come up with ones that I haven't thought of. I suppose it's not technically that I hate to admit it, but that I don't like finding that I am on a different side in this arguement.

JustAnotherVoice
June 17th, 2010, 05:02 AM
You'll have half the forums agreeing with you, and the other half...not so much.

I, for one, am in reasonable agreement.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 05:04 AM
I want this on my money instead of "In God We Trust"

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 05:36 AM
I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.I don't listen to the podcast but yes, I'd have to agree that Young gets more than his fair share of the grief, more so on the forums than on the Destiny.


Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.Every time I hear the "military dictator" thing I'm torn between cringing and swearing at my monitor. I think some things just get repeated for the sake of being repeated. With the existence these people on Destiny are living, decisions occasionally have to be made fast, with no screwing around. When you're being attacked, there's no time for a committee or for everyone to sit around and discuss your feelings. That comes after, when you are safe. And yes, if it really was a military dictatorship, even a fraction of the crap that has happened would be less likely to happen. Especially after "Divided".


The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. It's funny because despite all the caterwauling about Young not being fit for leadership, the entire ship definitely sees him as the leader in a way they would never see Wray or Rush (at this point I don't know which is worse) or the gods forbid, brainwashed Telford or even Kiva.


What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.As a species, we're tribal, and that only deepens when we are essentially a hunter-gatherer society, which the Destiny is at this moment. If the Destiny is ever secure enough or has enough people to be self-sufficient and they don't face mortal danger every day, I can see that changing. All it took was a month on the Faith planet to show that, when not faced with threat, that the military steps back. This isn't the action of a dictatorship. They need leadership. They need a chief, a head man, and Young fulfils that at the moment.


And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?When Wray was in a position of leadership, her hands were shaking within a day and she was manipulated by others. Maybe she's toughened up since then but is this really the time to test it. I think Wray works quite well when she works WITH Young, as what happened in the first part of Air, when Young stated that she knew these people and that he needed her to talk to them and keep things positive, and again in the Incursions, when they worked side by side regarding Kiva. Rush, in his conversation with Chloe after her father died, can definitely say the right things and I believe that he believes them.But he also says other things that lead me to believe that if Rush thought it would be a benefit for someone to sacrifice themself (or be sacrificed as the case may be) that he would do it. Wanting Young to round up the civilians on the Faith planet at gunpoint is a good example of Rush saying one thing - get rid of the military - and doing something else - wanting to use the military to round up the civilians. I strongly believe that Rush has some purpose for this in mind; it's just that I don;'t know what it is, so I don't trust it. Maybe no one on Destiny should either.


I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.Spare me from perfect :) Because he's flawed doesn't make him any less heroic, in fact, in the Joseph Campbell sense, it makes him more of one. Despite what a gagillion comic books might have told us, heroes aren't perfect and every hero has blood on his hands and has done some dark things just to get to where he is. And yep, he yells a lot, he's volatile, but he's also probably used to dealing with military more often than civilians, especially in a state of war, which is a fair description of what they're in.


Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.I agree that Young has definitely been right. There are personal failings (marooning Rush, impregnating TJ) that he regrets and that he would believe he's wrong on, but yes, his other decisions have, in the end, been proven right. Greer trusts Young to do the right thing. That might be hard sometimes, but it seems to me that a good deal of what's been presented on Destiny is about trust and I think the writers are setting things up this way to make people question that. Then when he's proven to be right, it's a "you should have trusted him" sort of moment. Young is earning OUR trust just as surely as he's earning the Destiny's trust.
In Young I trust too.



I want this on my money instead of "In God We Trust"I'd be willing to pencil that in :)

KEK
June 17th, 2010, 06:28 AM
It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.

blackluster
June 17th, 2010, 06:50 AM
It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.This basically reflects my sentiments. The problem is that for all the good decisions he makes, they tend to be small ones. When it comes to the really big ones that really count at the end of the day, Young comes up short. For the most part the crew has been rather forgiving of him with the exception of Rush who, seeing the situation in its entirety, realizes that Young has been very close to getting everyone killed a large number of times since 'Air'. That insight culminated in the events which lead to his marooning. Although, Young's incompetence has been somewhat mitigated since then since he is spending less time trying to crucify Rush for everything that goes wrong. At least then he has shown the fruits of some epiphany that making his decisions in a silo is not the way to go.

For me that was sufficient character growth on his part that makes me think he isn't a completely lost cause as far as leadership goes. Ideally, I feel he should be walking the line he had somewhat been keeping to which balances his military experience with Rush's technical and practical mind and Wray's morality. It might not always come up with the ultimate answer but it's a damn sight better than what he was doing before.

Granted, he had some shockers in the last two eps. showing some worst case scenarios to his decisions becoming reality which is a bit of regression. Like I said though, if he is able to survive this catastrophe, the ground work has already been laid from before in terms of rectifying his leadership style. Realistically one wouldn't expect him to get the hang of properly fusing Wray and Rush's inputs overnight, but like I said, he has shown enough I think to indicate that he isn't a complete lost cause. He just has to make sure he moves forward, not backward and attempt to keep showing confidence as difficult as that may be.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 17th, 2010, 07:21 AM
It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.

I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 07:49 AM
I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.

Strain does show and should show (it was a shame about Petraeus. Of all the things the guy is going to be fielding questions over and I see that one moment as being something a lot of people may question him on) and I agree that this is a reality check, Stargate wise.

I'm hoping to see a slightly different outcome than the two extremes you've painted however. I'm hoping that he gets the help he needs from his fellow survivors. Sure, Young needs to take the reins but the other survivors need to do their part and stop sabotaging his efforts. I'm really hoping that Wray will continue to work with him, or at least not undermine him. I don't see Wray as being an effective leader but I think that between the two of them, they may do a better job and that it may remove some of the strain off Young as well and give him whatever help he needs.

KEK
June 17th, 2010, 08:14 AM
I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.

I wouldn't dispute that he wasn't a great leader in the past, only that he isn't any more. Why else would they have him turn down the job, or make constant references and examples of him not having the stomach for this, and being indecisive? I'm not saying he's a clueless "foxhole norman" type character, only that he's broken, and tired, and not fit to lead any more.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 17th, 2010, 08:27 AM
I wouldn't dispute that he wasn't a great leader in the past, only that he isn't any more. Why else would they have him turn down the job, or make constant references and examples of him not having the stomach for this, and being indecisive? I'm not saying he's a clueless "foxhole norman" type character, only that he's broken, and tired, and not fit to lead any more.

The thing is I believe the possibility remains for Young to be a good leader. But it’s do or die time. 2 things could happen, if we rule out him being killed. He could pull himself together, realise his hesitancy has caused problems and take a much more ruthless approach. Or if he fails to take action, someone else will lead the counter attack against the LA, at which point he’s lost command anyway.

Tuvok
June 17th, 2010, 08:46 AM
I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.

The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. Civilians (at least those from a democratic societies like in the west) don't like to live in an autocratic society because unless we make the choice to give up our democratic rights to be part of the military it makes us feel vulnerable and out of control. This impulse is ingrained in us our whole lives by the example of "reigns of terror" and all the other nasty things that other autocratic societies have done and suffered and how they have ultimately failed.

What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.

The problem occurs when the power is inherited, and instead of being given to the one who can do it is given to the son of the one who can do it (did you know that the Roman Emperor Nero was the son of a much loved and respected general? His is an extreme example). Or when the society grows so large and the civilians vastly outnumber the military and so they are not represented.

This is where BSG and SGU are different. BSG had a huge civilian population and so required a democratic system. There are less than 80 people on Destiny, at least a 3rd of them military, in a position where one person must be in charge - there is no time to vote on all decisons.

And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?

I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.

The way I see it, Young has made 3 mistakes. He slept with a subordinate officer, he balked at sacrificing Rush (as he saw it - if he had known it was Telford I think he would have done it with the knowledge that Telford had volunteered to endanger himself when he joined the airforce) and he marooned Rush. The thing with Rush though I even can explain - the guy pretty much told him "I am never going to stop trying to undermine/kill you". As I say the safety of the crew requires that one person be in command and anyone who goes against that is endangering everyone. That is after all what mutiny IS and why it is so harshly punished. I have always seen Young like the Captain of an old sailing ship. These guys would be referred to as "Master After God" because of the power they had, and needed. They were out of touch with their superiors for months at least with hundred(s) of people to look after and the need to survive all sorts of things, including enemy action.

Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.

Crosses right hand over heart reverently .

In Young we trust.

So ...say we all.

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 08:46 AM
It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season.

I agree that it has been a major plot point, but that doesn't make it something we should take as gospel. I think the writers are creating an arc for his character, using the crew's feelings to portray a lack of confidence makes the viewer question his competence, and thus makes his "comeback" even more of an achievement. How many people honestly thought he had gone off the deep end when he put Telford through the wringer, yet he turned out to know something we didn't, and turned out to be right. It is an excellent storytelling device, and redemption of our heroes is always good to see, but they have to fall before they can get up. It just seems to me that no sooner does he prove himself than he is being ragged on for his next "mistake".


He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive.

For a military commander, questioning your own competence can be as dangerous as the lack of competence. The difference is that sometimes an emergency situation can force said commander to put their feelings aside, and because the skill set still exists, they can shoot from bad to excellent very quickly. Young turned the Destiny command down because as he said to O'Neill "I don't think it's still in me, Sir". In those circumstances sometimes it takes someone else to recognise the talent and convince the other of their competence. O'Neill believed in Young and still does.

Indecisive? One time he hesitated for a few seconds (and be honest if he had pushed the button straight away it would have taken 60 seconds to evacuate the gateroom and it took 5 seconds for the LA members to put on breathing apparatus and get the door openers in place) and now he is not fit for command?


The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.

See I see something else, I see him about to put his plan into action. Again I go back to the ending where he was torturing Telford. The end of the episode ocurred before we found out what his plan was. That has happened again, its just we have to wait months instead of days before we find out what it is and that he didn't deserve the blame after all.

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 08:51 AM
So ...say we all.

So Say We All.

so say we all.

SO SAY WE ALL

So Say We All

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!!

SO SAY WE ALL!!

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 17th, 2010, 08:56 AM
I doubt O'neil would have vented the atmosphere if it where Daniel. Carters situation was different, the planet was about to explode and there was 200+ people on the ship. Rush was left on the planet because he framed Young for Murder and tampered with a crime scene, so he saw a dead man and thought I can use that is premeditation where as Young stranded Rush on a snap witch was wrong. They called a truce after Divided let bigons be bigons.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 09:03 AM
I agree that it has been a major plot point, but that doesn't make it something we should take as gospel. I think the writers are creating an arc for his character, using the crew's feelings to portray a lack of confidence makes the viewer question his competence, and thus makes his "comeback" even more of an achievement. How many people honestly thought he had gone off the deep end when he put Telford through the wringer, yet he turned out to know something we didn't, and turned out to be right. It is an excellent storytelling device, and redemption of our heroes is always good to see, but they have to fall before they can get up. It just seems to me that no sooner does he prove himself than he is being ragged on for his next "mistake".I agree that he's being written to fail, most likely so that when he comes up from behind it isn't seen as another "ho hum, he saves the day...again" sort of scenario but as something that he's won after a struggle. Ragging on Young is a national pastime, it seems :D




For a military commander, questioning your own competence can be as dangerous as the lack of competence. The difference is that sometimes an emergency situation can force said commander to put their feelings aside, and because the skill set still exists, they can shoot from bad to excellent very quickly. Young turned the Destiny command down because as he said to O'Neill "I don't think it's still in me, Sir". In those circumstances sometimes it takes someone else to recognise the talent and convince the other of their competence. O'Neill believed in Young and still does.Yes, I agree, and the inverse is also true - a leader so confident that he never doubts anything he does is just as awful. I believe that O'Neill still believes in Young.


Indecisive? One time he hesitated for a few seconds (and be honest if he had pushed the button straight away it would have taken 60 seconds to evacuate the gateroom and it took 5 seconds for the LA members to put on breathing apparatus and get the door openers in place) and now he is not fit for command?
YOUNG: How long will it take to reach vacuum?
(Volker looks at Brody thoughtfully.)
VOLKER: A minute or so?
BRODY: That's about right.

Yep, even more than a minute - a minute or so! That might not seem like a long time but trust me, that's a long damned time! Maybe the initial plan would have worked, sure. Maybe. But it sure as hell didn't take Kiva's people that long to put on masks and get those doors open, so maybe it wouldn't have accomplished anything other than to severely piss her off and make any negotiations later something impossible to carry out. Again, see above - bagging on Young is a favorite pastime, it wouldn't have mattered what he did.




See I see something else, I see him about to put his plan into action. Again I go back to the ending where he was torturing Telford. The end of the episode ocurred before we found out what his plan was. That has happened again, its just we have to wait months instead of days before we find out what it is and that he didn't deserve the blame after all.He's got parts of a plan put in action. Currently, due to circumstances not fully in their control, NO ONE has full control of Destiny, but Rush, Brody, Eli, Scott and Greer and even Chloe are outside the reach of the LA and if anyone is capable of getting the Destiny's controls back, it's Eli and Rush, not to discount Brody. Once that control comes back, the plan Young and Telford put in place to have all the civilians herded into a single room and vent the surrounding areas may well come to fruition. Young and the military may well go berserk when those lights flicker and finally go off and they overwhelm the LA that have been sent in, and thus free themselves. All sorts of things are at that moment when everything is in play but nothing has completed yet phase. And yeah, we do have to wait. I for one am willing to wait and give him the benefit of the doubt.

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 09:43 AM
I also saw in a post on another thread someone suggested that before he returned the 4 LA members back to Kiva he ran them through the stone room and had them "replaced" with SGC personnel. 4 trojan horses just waiting for the moment to strike.

For some reason the person who put that theory forward didn't like it, but I LOVE IT! That is just the kind of plan that I am talking about.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 10:39 AM
I also saw in a post on another thread someone suggested that before he returned the 4 LA members back to Kiva he ran them through the stone room and had them "replaced" with SGC personnel. 4 trojan horses just waiting for the moment to strike.

For some reason the person who put that theory forward didn't like it, but I LOVE IT! That is just the kind of plan that I am talking about.that's provided they have control of the stone room and have someone to watch over what's happening and also, those 4 LA guys that you've switched with are now on YOUR side of the fence, capable of just as much trouble, so you've got to have someone watch over them as well. Plus, if anyone on the other side suspects, you're looking at four more of your own people dead. It's always the details :)

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 11:42 AM
that's provided they have control of the stone room and have someone to watch over what's happening and also, those 4 LA guys that you've switched with are now on YOUR side of the fence, capable of just as much trouble, so you've got to have someone watch over them as well. Plus, if anyone on the other side suspects, you're looking at four more of your own people dead. It's always the details :)

Well we know that they have the stone room because Young has reported to O'Neill. And I you're right they would need to tie them to chairs before they switched.

The biggest problem I see is that Kiva would spot the Trojans before they were ready to move. She has already proven herself to be very clever at that sort of thing.

yanna
June 17th, 2010, 12:41 PM
I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.

Exactly what am I to trust about him? How he let the ship fall in the hands of the Lucian Alliance? How he didn't share with anyone what the hell he was trying to achieve with Telford and nearly killed both Telford and Rush? Would it kill him to tell Scott what he had in mind instead of expecting him to follow him blindly like his faithful pit bull, Greer? How while Rush was frying his brains on the chair, Young let his other brilliant scientist go down on the planet to play explorer? And lost him, of course. How he has tried to kill Rush on numerous occasions? The fact that he marooned him then lied about it and continued lying.

I don't undrestand his newfound morals. He was perfectly willing to kill both Rush and Chloe and blow up Destiny shooting recklessly back when the Blues attacked. Now all of a sudden he can't bear to hurt one person to save everyone? What happened to acceptable losses? Or it doesn't work that way when it's his buddy?

I don't think it's because he has PTSD or whatever. He's just dangerously incompetent.

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 01:32 PM
I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.

Wow. Ok. (deep breath)


Exactly what am I to trust about him? How he let the ship fall in the hands of the Lucian Alliance?

That was the plan. Unless he planned to kill most of his crew in a frontal assault against a fortified, fanatical and ruthless enemy, he had to find a smart way to deal with them. Hence the misdirect of pretending to surrender so he could get all his people (including the hostages) in one area and space the rest. Unfortunately no plan survives contact with the enemy, and at worst he was optomistic in his planning, at best the plan is not done yet, just the episode. The fat lady ain't sung yet dude.


How he didn't share with anyone what the hell he was trying to achieve with Telford and nearly killed both Telford and Rush?

If he had told anyone else he would also have been telling Evil-Telford. He had to keep an eye on him which means any conversation would have been overheard. Or if you want to look at it another way, it would have screwed up the cliffhanger.


Would it kill him to tell Scott what he had in mind instead of expecting him to follow him blindly like his faithful pit bull, Greer?

Yeah it's almost like he was acting like his C.O.


How while Rush was frying his brains on the chair, Young let his other brilliant scientist go down on the planet to play explorer? And lost him, of course.

Eli volunteered to go down there. He can't wrap the kid up in cotton wool, every time someone steps through the gate they are running the risk of not returning, especially with Destiny having a countdown.


How he has tried to kill Rush on numerous occasions? The fact that he marooned him then lied about it and continued lying.

First he was provoked beyond measure to do what he did. Rush made it very clear (and had been dropping hints since early episodes) that one of them had to go. Was he just supposed to hand over the ship to the guy who stranded them all there because he didn't want to lose the chance to find out what was on the other side of the 9 symbol adress? The guy who was happy to risk other people's life to sit in the chair yet clearly didn't think it was safe for him to sit in? The guy who manipulated Franklin into sitting there, framed Young for murder so that he could get someone more suggestable into command? The guy who even thought himself callous and at least until he had the dreamwalk with his wife was living up to that label? Plus he wasn't trying to kill him. Rush attacked him, they fought, Young asked him if it was over, Rush said no, they fought some more, he knocked him out, and then decided not to pick him up and carry him to the gate he only had seconds to get to. There is a very real chance that if he had carried him back neither of them would have made it and even if they had he was just inviting trouble by rescuing him. Afterward he didn't tell anyone for the same reason he didn't tell anyone about what Rush did, so that the crew would not be burdened. Not the best decision, and one he regrets but both he and I admit it as such.


I don't undrestand his newfound morals. He was perfectly willing to kill both Rush and Chloe and blow up Destiny shooting recklessly back when the Blues attacked. Now all of a sudden he can't bear to hurt one person to save everyone? What happened to acceptable losses? Or it doesn't work that way when it's his buddy?

He risked his life (yet again) to go and rescue Chloe. He found Rush first, and instead of leaving him to continue to look for Chloe rescued him. The connection was then broken and he tried to go back but by that time Rush had been forced to kill the alien and he had no way of returning. At that point he had to return fire or lose everyone on the ship, he had done all he could and had to leave it up to Rush.

Evacuating the air out of the gateroom would (he believed) have killed 2 people not just 1. And he didn't do it because of RUSH not Telford. By that point he had realised he made the wrong decision with Rush and wasn't going to do it again.


I don't think it's because he has PTSD or whatever. He's just dangerously incompetent.

As opposed to benevolent Rush or super woman Wray? Judge him by his results when all the information is in.

Shai Hulud
June 17th, 2010, 01:34 PM
They really should have kept his limp, the character would just have been better somehow.

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 01:51 PM
In the 3 parts of "Air" I liked him. It was obvious he was trying his best, and was willing to sacrifice himself to save the crew. In Darkness, I could tell he was a bit antagonistic to Rush, but overall he seemed to handle it decently and trusted Rush on the power issue.

At the end of "Light," though, I couldn't believe it when he stood there and basically accused Rush of holding back information or misleading the crew.

From there, it was downhill, after he made bad decision after bad decision, culminating with him marooning Rush. The only bright spot was him stepping him down and assigning Scott to investigate the murder, and stepping down afterward rather than have doubt among the crew.

But yes, he has been very dictatorish. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. For those young defenders, even HE admitted it in Faith I think: "Look, they didn't try to take over because I was doing a bang-up job." He admitted he was doing poorly enough that people really wanted him gone. This is when I started to like him again, because he seemed to be trying to take a more diplomatic and conciliatory approach; in short, character growth.

With Incursion, though, I have to say I still see his flaws as being unable to make the really tough calls, which made me question how he became a colonel in the first place. Unless he learns to do so, he does not belong in command. I've noticed the pattern that, with quite a few of the "right" decisions he's made, have not been out of concern... but out of a desire for death for self-destruction. He's quick to try and sacrifice himself. That's not someone you want in charge.

So, who should lead? It's a fair question. I'm not sure myself, so I'd like to see some others step up to see what they can do. Rush, much as I love the guy, his coldly logical style wouldn't sit well with the crew, and he has no real desire to lead... just to conduct science and study the ship.

Wray? I actually like to see her in charge for a fairly long time, and see how she handles under the difficult choices. Maybe she's better, maybe she's worse, but I won't know until I see it.

So rather than defend Young with a the irrational fervor of a religious fundamentalist, I'll call him out using logic. No, I don't really trust him as a leader. Trust him to make the necessary self-sacrifice? Sure, but that's about it.

Avenger
June 17th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 02:01 PM
Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

In Air part 2, when Young realized Rush hadn't said anything about an address to Earth, I would agree with you. But in Light, Young should have known better. As young himself said, Rush made a sacrifice in staying, and clearly expected to die along with the rest. And then he helped saved the shuttle crew, and during the midst of a celebration he accuses Rush? Everyone else was right when they said "Let it go."

How would you like it if I said: "Avenger, you seem greasy to me. You are deliberately withholding information, because you know I'm right and insist on being different just to troll the thread."

Makes me seem stupid, eh?

Avenger
June 17th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Like it or not, first impressions are difficult to change. One good deed isn't going to be enough to erase a poor first impression, particularly something as massive as stranding everyone billions of light years away from home with no chance of getting home.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 02:13 PM
....

So rather than defend Young with a the irrational fervor of a religious fundamentalist, I'll call him out using logic......wow, really?

bobsuncorp
June 17th, 2010, 02:18 PM
At the end of "Light," though, I couldn't believe it when he stood there and basically accused Rush of holding back information or misleading the crew.

That may have been unfounded, but remember that Rush DID intentionally mislead the crew with the fake Icarus planet data. And why did he do that? Not so that he could make people feel better like he claimed but so that he could study that damn chair. Watch his face when Young calls him on it if you don't believe me, he was furious.



But yes, he has been very dictatorish. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. For those young defenders, even HE admitted it in Faith I think: "Look, they didn't try to take over because I was doing a bang-up job." He admitted he was doing poorly enough that people really wanted him gone.

He actually said that he knew that people didn't THINK he was doing a bang up job. I'm not nitpicking, I think it is an important distinction. He is truly the focus of everyone's unhappiness and blame for their situation, and that was the resentment exploding. He is not as empathetic as Scott, but Destiny needs a tough guy more than they need a nice guy right now.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 17th, 2010, 02:31 PM
I think Young is a fundementally good person who is in way over his head. That said I don't think anyone else in this circumstance with these people could do much better than Young has. I think they may not have made the mistakes Young has made, but to assume they wouldn't have simply made different mistakes is foolish.

As Young said from the get go, "These are the wrong people." Part of the reason the SG-teams work so well is I imagine they are carefully selected so that their skills compliment each other and they work together. This is a group of refugees trying to hack it out as best they can. No one would be able to create a happy go lucky team in this environment.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 17th, 2010, 02:36 PM
Avenger,


Rush was pretty greasy early in the season and he was the one responsible for everyone being on Destiny. Young not trusting him and accusing him of withholding information and misleading the crew wasn't off base.

If the accusation was made in private you'd be correct. In public with everyone looking on, that was a bad call. Young should know when and where to do things like accuse the lead scientist of withholding crucial information.

All that said I don't think Rush knew with enough certianty to give people any real hope that Destiny would survive the encounter with the Star in "Light". Thus, sharing that information would have just muddied the water about what to do with the people who might survive by leaving on the shuttle. If Rush withheld information it was the right call in my opinion. Choosing to assume the Ship would survive the encounter with the Star would have been foolish.

Replicator Todd
June 17th, 2010, 02:47 PM
In Kiva we trust! :p

yanna
June 17th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Wow. Ok. (deep breath)



That was the plan. Unless he planned to kill most of his crew in a frontal assault against a fortified, fanatical and ruthless enemy, he had to find a smart way to deal with them. Hence the misdirect of pretending to surrender so he could get all his people (including the hostages) in one area and space the rest. Unfortunately no plan survives contact with the enemy, and at worst he was optomistic in his planning, at best the plan is not done yet, just the episode. The fat lady ain't sung yet dude.

I'm sure there will be some Deus ex Machina solution to get them out of that mess. However, if he had gone ahead and vented the atmosphere when the LA showed up or been more effective in incapacitating them, he wouldn't have to come up with that plan at all. And fail.



If he had told anyone else he would also have been telling Evil-Telford. He had to keep an eye on him which means any conversation would have been overheard. Or if you want to look at it another way, it would have screwed up the cliffhanger.

Whaaa? There was no way to give a heads up to Scott and Wray without Telford overhearing? What, does he have ears like a bat? He could leave him in the room, quickly tell the other what's the deal then proceed with his torture therapy. As for how it would have screwed the cliffhanger, yes, I'm sure Young was really worried about that.




(about whether he should have told Scott what he was trying to do with Telford) Yeah it's almost like he was acting like his C.O.

There's being a C.O. and there's forcing someone to participate in a murder. Scott has a right to question Young's orders esp. considering that Young has already attempted to kill Rush once. Why should Scott trust a proven liar and attempted murderer just as he is killing again? At a court martial it would be his behind on the line too.



Eli volunteered to go down there. He can't wrap the kid up in cotton wool, every time someone steps through the gate they are running the risk of not returning, especially with Destiny having a countdown.

Eli had no business leaving just as Rush was frying his brain. A good commander would worry less about pleasing his pet geek and more about whether he's about to find himself without his two top scientists.




First he was provoked beyond measure to do what he did. Rush made it very clear (and had been dropping hints since early episodes) that one of them had to go. Was he just supposed to hand over the ship to the guy who stranded them all there because he didn't want to lose the chance to find out what was on the other side of the 9 symbol adress? The guy who was happy to risk other people's life to sit in the chair yet clearly didn't think it was safe for him to sit in? The guy who manipulated Franklin into sitting there, framed Young for murder so that he could get someone more suggestable into command? The guy who even thought himself callous and at least until he had the dreamwalk with his wife was living up to that label? Plus he wasn't trying to kill him. Rush attacked him, they fought, Young asked him if it was over, Rush said no, they fought some more, he knocked him out, and then decided not to pick him up and carry him to the gate he only had seconds to get to.

You need to rewatch Justice. Rush didn't attack Young, Young was the one who threw the first punch. All Rush was doing was his job. He wanted to study the chair. He couldn't quite do it without any access to it. With Spencer's death, he saw a chance and he removed Young who with his vast scientific knowledge expected Rush to study the chair from outside a locked and guarded room. Rush didn't expect people to believe that Young had committed murder. He just wanted him to step down and he explained quite clearly why. Young doesn't have what it takes. All that Young had to do was take Rush back on the ship, expose what Rush had done (he did have proof after all) and punish him. The correct reaction to being framed for murder is not to then go and commit a murder. Not to mention that the scientific part of the mission on the planet was thrown out the window when Young chose it as his venue for his confrontation with Rush. Rush wanted to study the first sign of civilisation they had found. It would probably be in the Destineers' best interest but Young didn't let him do his job.


There is a very real chance that if he had carried him back neither of them would have made it and even if they had he was just inviting trouble by rescuing him. Afterward he didn't tell anyone for the same reason he didn't tell anyone about what Rush did, so that the crew would not be burdened. Not the best decision, and one he regrets but both he and I admit it as such.


He wouldn't need to carry him back if he hadn't beaten unconscious a man half his size. And please, I'm not so sure he couldn't have hefted Rush in a fireman's carry and managed to get back. Rush is skin and bones. As for Young being oh, so noble and not wanting to burden the crew... Yeah, I think he was more worried about covering his own behnd.


He risked his life (yet again) to go and rescue Chloe. He found Rush first, and instead of leaving him to continue to look for Chloe rescued him. The connection was then broken and he tried to go back but by that time Rush had been forced to kill the alien and he had no way of returning. At that point he had to return fire or lose everyone on the ship, he had done all he could and had to leave it up to Rush.

I'm not about to pat Young on the back for rescuing Rush. Notice how he didn't say a thing about Rush being on that ship when he got back to Destiny? I think that his main goal was to get intelligence from Rush. Whether he woulld actually take him back to Destiny is debatable. As for Young leaving the rescuing to Rush while he was firing at the ship with Rush and Chloe in it.... wow, you make it sound as though they had discussed it, or something. Young had no way of knowing that Rush could and would save Chloe. He had just written them both off as acceptable losses.


Evacuating the air out of the gateroom would (he believed) have killed 2 people not just 1. And he didn't do it because of RUSH not Telford. By that point he had realised he made the wrong decision with Rush and wasn't going to do it again.

Saving Rush was extremely easy in that situation. All he had to do would be to order the stones disconnected. Or simply to remember that once Destiny is out of FTL, the stone connection is severred anyway. Even if he had somehow forgotten about all of that we don't know for sure that it was Rush he was so worried about




As opposed to benevolent Rush or super woman Wray? Judge him by his results when all the information is in.

Oh, I am judging by his results. And wait a minute, I'm not allowed to comment on a character unless I have seen the entire show?

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM
That may have been unfounded, but remember that Rush DID intentionally mislead the crew with the fake Icarus planet data. And why did he do that? Not so that he could make people feel better like he claimed but so that he could study that damn chair. Watch his face when Young calls him on it if you don't believe me, he was furious.

Fake Icarus came later, and we're talking about Young, not Rush. And to be fair, Rush calls Young out for doing the exact same thing with trying to dial Earth. Young did something he knew was false in order to boost morale. Rush did the same.

But if you want to talk about it, Yes, Rush did want to study the chair, feeling very strongly it was the strongest chance at controlling the ship. It was Young holding him back.



He actually said that he knew that people didn't THINK he was doing a bang up job. I'm not nitpicking, I think it is an important distinction. He is truly the focus of everyone's unhappiness and blame for their situation, and that was the resentment exploding. He is not as empathetic as Scott, but Destiny needs a tough guy more than they need a nice guy right now.

Newsflash: If everyone is saying the same thing about you, it's usually a good indicator that they're right. Not always, but it bears in-depth introspection. And regardless of whether they were right or wrong, Young had to know that he had to make more of an effort to get along with people they were stuck on the ship with.

Kelara
June 18th, 2010, 12:37 AM
I see Young as another obstacle that the rest of the Destineers have to overcome. He needs to be relieved of command before he kills them all.
[...]
He's just dangerously incompetent.

I'm so sorry I can green you only once for this post. Really, really sorry :)!

From the start we are shown the kinds of morals this guy has. That he throws some actions in that make him seem less absolutely self centered is logical, but like you I don't see why people (as in viewers; Destiny crew is of course hobbled by lack of great alternatives :/) would so desparately latch on to those few and far between instances.

Phenom
June 18th, 2010, 02:04 AM
This thread is like a comp to see who can submit the longest post!

EllieVee
June 18th, 2010, 02:20 AM
In the 3 parts of "Air" I liked him. It was obvious he was trying his best, and was willing to sacrifice himself to save the crew. In Darkness, I could tell he was a bit antagonistic to Rush, but overall he seemed to handle it decently and trusted Rush on the power issue.

You forget this from Darkness:

It could be that Rush is just starting the fire so he can put it out, or it could be that he's so far ahead of us, he can see problems that none of us can see.

A completely unnecessary and unfounded accusation.

bobsuncorp
June 18th, 2010, 03:42 AM
OK we are up to 37 posts on this mass-debate (tee hee), I am now going away for the weekend, so lets see if we can double that by the time I get back!

I hope everyone is having as much fun fighting over this topic as I am and there are no hard feelings.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 04:26 AM
Yanna,


You need to rewatch Justice. Rush didn't attack Young, Young was the one who threw the first punch. All Rush was doing was his job. He wanted to study the chair. He couldn't quite do it without any access to it. With Spencer's death, he saw a chance and he removed Young who with his vast scientific knowledge expected Rush to study the chair from outside a locked and guarded room. Rush didn't expect people to believe that Young had committed murder. He just wanted him to step down and he explained quite clearly why. Young doesn't have what it takes. All that Young had to do was take Rush back on the ship, expose what Rush had done (he did have proof after all) and punish him. The correct reaction to being framed for murder is not to then go and commit a murder. Not to mention that the scientific part of the mission on the planet was thrown out the window when Young chose it as his venue for his confrontation with Rush. Rush wanted to study the first sign of civilisation they had found. It would probably be in the Destineers' best interest but Young didn't let him do his job.

Rush was in the wrong to do what he did. Rush admits that to Young right before Young takes a swing at Rush. The really hard part about Rush's character is his willingness to do things he knows are wrong because he believes taking that action is the lesser of two evils or the bad action will, in the long run, contribute to the "greater good."

While I understand Rush's actions I cannot condone them. He should have confronted Young directly and attempted to have him removed from command via proper channels. Framing Young for murder is way beyond the pale.

Likewise, Rush's actions in no way justify Young attacking Rush and marooning him on a planet with no practical way to get off, go home, or get back to Destiny. Particularly, when he felt the need to lie about his actions when he got back to Destiny.

To summerize I think both Rush and Young are terribly flawed men. It's what makes them interesting.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 18th, 2010, 05:42 AM
...

To summerize I think both Rush and Young are terribly flawed men. It's what makes them interesting.which is what I like about them both :) Green!

yanna
June 18th, 2010, 06:48 AM
Rush was in the wrong to do what he did. Rush admits that to Young right before Young takes a swing at Rush. The really hard part about Rush's character is his willingness to do things he knows are wrong because he believes taking that action is the lesser of two evils or the bad action will, in the long run, contribute to the "greater good."

While I understand Rush's actions I cannot condone them. He should have confronted Young directly and attempted to have him removed from command via proper channels. Framing Young for murder is way beyond the pale.

I completely agree with you regarding Rush's actions. However, I believe that he did try other means of taking control before resorting to framing Young for murder. Young's inflexibility drove him to his breaking point.

I'm not blind to Rush's faults. He indirectly caused Franklin's death. He stranded them all just to satisfy his curiosity and his obsession with Destiny shows little regard for the others on the ship.

I think the problem is whether I can see Young as a character I can root for after that attempted murder and I'm sorry, I just can't. The fact that Young is a liar, a very poor military leader and an extremely rude and unpleasant man certainly doesn't help. Not to even get into the stone sex (and the fact that he had been friends with Telford before the brainwashing adds an extra level of ewwww there) and his extramarital affair with a subordinate.

In short, no, I wouldn't trust him. My choices for command would be Telford (if he survives), Wray (I really don't hate her), Scott (he's green but at least he has a conscience and he can work well with scientists) and Varro (pretty1!!! and he can be a go between in case the Lucian Alliance stays on the ship). All of the choices would be problematic but I believe the Destineers would have a far better chance of survival.

PTree
June 18th, 2010, 07:03 AM
I completely agree with you regarding Rush's actions. However, I believe that he did try other means of taking control before resorting to framing Young for murder. Young's inflexibility drove him to his breaking point.

I'm not blind to Rush's faults. He indirectly caused Franklin's death. He stranded them all just to satisfy his curiosity and his obsession with Destiny shows little regard for the others on the ship.

I think the problem is whether I can see Young as a character I can root for after that attempted murder and I'm sorry, I just can't. The fact that Young is a liar, a very poor military leader and an extremely rude and unpleasant man certainly doesn't help. Not to even get into the stone sex (and the fact that he had been friends with Telford before the brainwashing adds an extra level of ewwww there) and his extramarital affair with a subordinate.

In short, no, I wouldn't trust him. My choices for command would be Telford (if he survives), Wray (I really don't hate her), Scott (he's green but at least he has a conscience and he can work well with scientists) and Varro (pretty1!!! and he can be a go between in case the Lucian Alliance stays on the ship). All of the choices would be problematic but I believe the Destineers would have a far better chance of survival.

I couldn't agree more about Young. Having flawed characters might be interesting, but making them completely unlikable (at least in my case) doesn't make for lasting viewership. After Chloe, Young is my least favorite character. I'm not too fond of Rush, either.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 07:43 AM
Yanna, PTree,

I like Young. I think he's a decent man dealing with extraordinary circumstances.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 18th, 2010, 07:47 AM
Yanna, PTree,

I like Young. I think he's a decent man dealing with extraordinary circumstances.

for me that's what it always comes down to as well :)

Kaiphantom
June 18th, 2010, 07:50 AM
You forget this from Darkness:


A completely unnecessary and unfounded accusation.

Heh, nearly forgot about that line. Yeah, Young had an antagonistic streak towards Rush early on, but in all fairness to him, Young was logically stating two possible scenarios, either of which could be accurate. At the end of light, he pretty much abandoned any veneer of trust towards Rush, despite Rush's actions, and openly accused him. Which is jarring, because Young said earlier that Rush was right about the power situation. There wasn't much else Rush could have done to earn trust during those two episodes, and yet Young's opinion of Rush degenerated. It's very... disturbing on Young's end, which is why I can't trust Young.

Rush, I can trust, because I know exactly what motivates him and what his reasons are. The greater good, science, and cold logic. Neither of those is justification for something like stranding them on Destiny, but because I know Rush, I know he'd do something like that, and know the reason why. So I can trust him to find a way to fix problems on the ship, but not completely rely on him to find a way home (he might not be so eager to do that). I can dislike some of his actions, while knowing and trusting him on others.

Young, I dislike his actions, but he's so all over the place that I don't know what he'll do next... only that he'll make a bad decision.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 18th, 2010, 08:04 AM
I feel sorry for Rush because of his wife and when Young confronted his as soon as he got out the chair I was like dude leave him alone he could have died. Young did just loose Eli though but I really do like Young though.

Cory Holmes
June 18th, 2010, 08:10 AM
Heh, nearly forgot about that line. Yeah, Young had an antagonistic streak towards Rush early on, but in all fairness to him, Young was logically stating two possible scenarios, either of which could be accurate. At the end of light, he pretty much abandoned any veneer of trust towards Rush, despite Rush's actions, and openly accused him. Which is jarring, because Young said earlier that Rush was right about the power situation. There wasn't much else Rush could have done to earn trust during those two episodes, and yet Young's opinion of Rush degenerated. It's very... disturbing on Young's end, which is why I can't trust Young.

Rush, I can trust, because I know exactly what motivates him and what his reasons are. The greater good, science, and cold logic. Neither of those is justification for something like stranding them on Destiny, but because I know Rush, I know he'd do something like that, and know the reason why. So I can trust him to find a way to fix problems on the ship, but not completely rely on him to find a way home (he might not be so eager to do that). I can dislike some of his actions, while knowing and trusting him on others.

Young, I dislike his actions, but he's so all over the place that I don't know what he'll do next... only that he'll make a bad decision.

Regarding Darkness, do recall that Young gave up on Rush after he attempted to invite him to the tableparty and join in the good cheer the rest were sharing. Rush's... abrasive... behaviour and personality is was finally stripped any nerve endings Young had left for the man.

EvilSpaceAlien
June 18th, 2010, 08:14 AM
I like Young. He's an incredibly flawed character, but that's what makes him human. Hell, that's what makes the entire crew human. They're all flawed.


So Say We All.

so say we all.

SO SAY WE ALL

So Say We All

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!!

SO SAY WE ALL!!

What are you saying?

Lahela
June 18th, 2010, 08:22 AM
Regarding Darkness, do recall that Young gave up on Rush after he attempted to invite him to the tableparty and join in the good cheer the rest were sharing. Rush's... abrasive... behaviour and personality is was finally stripped any nerve endings Young had left for the man.

Rush's "abrasive" behaviour at the end of Light was very probably a result of Young questioning whether Rush knew about the refuelling system.

Kaiphantom
June 18th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Regarding Darkness, do recall that Young gave up on Rush after he attempted to invite him to the tableparty and join in the good cheer the rest were sharing. Rush's... abrasive... behaviour and personality is was finally stripped any nerve endings Young had left for the man.

So, if I deem your behavior to be abrasive, I am perfectly justified in accusing you of things?

Or did you perhaps consider that some people just want to be left alone, and thus if they don't respond exactly the way they want, they must be bad people?

Demerzel
June 18th, 2010, 11:13 AM
So, if I deem your behavior to be abrasive, I am perfectly justified in accusing you of things?

Or did you perhaps consider that some people just want to be left alone, and thus if they don't respond exactly the way they want, they must be bad people?

Do you have to be on every topic, making it sound like people get a kick out of accusing people of things they didn't do? Hell, if a guy had tried to frame me for murder and kill me, even more someone like Rush who we know is selfish as can be, I certainly wouldn't forgive. Besides, Young had good reasons to suspect Rush knew. And it wasn't an accusation, it was a possibility Young was considering.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 11:23 AM
Lahela,

As out of line as I think Young was I believe Rush was being abrasive before Young said anything about Rush knowing the ship would survive.

Demerzel,


Besides, Young had good reasons to suspect Rush knew.

Really? What good reasons did Young have?

Kaiphantom
June 18th, 2010, 11:39 AM
Do you have to be on every topic, making it sound like people get a kick out of accusing people of things they didn't do? Hell, if a guy had tried to frame me for murder and kill me, even more someone like Rush who we know is selfish as can be, I certainly wouldn't forgive.

The framing came in during "Justice". The incident we are discussing came in during "Darkness". Young had no reason to suspect Rush at that time. Sure, if "Darkness" came in after "Justice" you might have a point.


Besides, Young had good reasons to suspect Rush knew. And it wasn't an accusation, it was a possibility Young was considering.

I'll echo Scot: what reasons would those be? And yes, in a very technical sense he only stated it as a possibility. But when you consider the general attitude, it was quite clear it was more of a direct accusation.

Kermee
June 18th, 2010, 03:14 PM
If it means we will see more of Louis Ferreia on our screens if Young steps down as commander, then I say "yes, he should give up his commandship.
But....If it means less screen time for LF, then I say a big fat "NO"!

I just don't want TPTB to pull a "Babylon 5" on us, when Michael O' Hare was replaced with a "bigger named" tv star. :(

Pharaoh Atem
June 18th, 2010, 03:19 PM
So Say We All.

so say we all.

SO SAY WE ALL

So Say We All

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!

SO SAY WE ALL

SO SAY WE ALL!!

SO SAY WE ALL!!

been there done that. in young we trust. is the new slogan

EllieVee
June 19th, 2010, 05:03 PM
Do you have to be on every topic, making it sound like people get a kick out of accusing people of things they didn't do? Hell, if a guy had tried to frame me for murder and kill me, even more someone like Rush who we know is selfish as can be, I certainly wouldn't forgive. Besides, Young had good reasons to suspect Rush knew. And it wasn't an accusation, it was a possibility Young was considering.

I don't think Young 'gets a kick' out of accusing Rush of things he has done but that doesn't excuse the accusation, which it definitely was. It wasn't a friendly, 'Hey, did you even think Destiny could do that?' It was a statement, 'Unless you knew.' And a most illogical accusation at that. Why would Rush send off their only medic and all their supplies?

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 20th, 2010, 05:04 AM
EllieVee,


I don't think Young 'gets a kick' out of accusing Rush of things he has done but that doesn't excuse the accusation, which it definitely was. It wasn't a friendly, 'Hey, did you even think Destiny could do that?' It was a statement, 'Unless you knew.' And a most illogical accusation at that. Why would Rush send off their only medic and all their supplies?

Because, then he could laugh manicly, put on a black suit (stored convenently in the supplies brought through from Icarus), black top hat, and wax his newly grown moustache. He is, after all, purely a "villian" is he not. His job is to do randomly evil acts for the noble hero's to thwart.

I'm so glad to have a show were the villians are clearly drawn out and the heros are easy to spot.

* nods firmly *

:p

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 05:49 AM
EllieVee,



Because, then he could laugh manicly, put on a black suit (stored convenently in the supplies brought through from Icarus), black top hat, and wax his newly grown moustache. He is, after all, purely a "villian" is he not. His job is to do randomly evil acts for the noble hero's to thwart.

I'm so glad to have a show were the villians are clearly drawn out and the heros are easy to spot.

* nods firmly *

:p

green :)

jelgate
June 20th, 2010, 09:51 AM
EllieVee,



Because, then he could laugh manicly, put on a black suit (stored convenently in the supplies brought through from Icarus), black top hat, and wax his newly grown moustache. He is, after all, purely a "villian" is he not. His job is to do randomly evil acts for the noble hero's to thwart.

I'm so glad to have a show were the villians are clearly drawn out and the heros are easy to spot.

* nods firmly *

:p

Just trust Greer. He always does what is right

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 10:18 AM
Just trust Greer. He always does what is right

*snorks* I trust him too, oddly enough. Greer is a guy you can rely on 100%.

Replicator Todd
June 20th, 2010, 07:58 PM
*snorks* I trust him too, oddly enough. Greer is a guy you can rely on 100%.

Only if he is loyal to you, then yes!

YutheGreat
June 21st, 2010, 02:58 AM
I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.

The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. Civilians (at least those from a democratic societies like in the west) don't like to live in an autocratic society because unless we make the choice to give up our democratic rights to be part of the military it makes us feel vulnerable and out of control. This impulse is ingrained in us our whole lives by the example of "reigns of terror" and all the other nasty things that other autocratic societies have done and suffered and how they have ultimately failed.

What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.

The problem occurs when the power is inherited, and instead of being given to the one who can do it is given to the son of the one who can do it (did you know that the Roman Emperor Nero was the son of a much loved and respected general? His is an extreme example). Or when the society grows so large and the civilians vastly outnumber the military and so they are not represented.

This is where BSG and SGU are different. BSG had a huge civilian population and so required a democratic system. There are less than 80 people on Destiny, at least a 3rd of them military, in a position where one person must be in charge - there is no time to vote on all decisons.

And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?

I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.

The way I see it, Young has made 3 mistakes. He slept with a subordinate officer, he balked at sacrificing Rush (as he saw it - if he had known it was Telford I think he would have done it with the knowledge that Telford had volunteered to endanger himself when he joined the airforce) and he marooned Rush. The thing with Rush though I even can explain - the guy pretty much told him "I am never going to stop trying to undermine/kill you". As I say the safety of the crew requires that one person be in command and anyone who goes against that is endangering everyone. That is after all what mutiny IS and why it is so harshly punished. I have always seen Young like the Captain of an old sailing ship. These guys would be referred to as "Master After God" because of the power they had, and needed. They were out of touch with their superiors for months at least with hundred(s) of people to look after and the need to survive all sorts of things, including enemy action.

Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.

Quite a post historically accurate. Dictators may be harsh but some get the job done. Well the founders anyway since the inheritors often as you say get too arrogant like Nero. It is the same thing in the East. In China several dynasties start off as capable and powerful leaders but later emperors get lazy and the empire falls apart then the cycle starts off again. One emperor in particular was responsible for creating more death in his reign than the hundreds of years before it but the end result was a unified China. (China used to be 7 divided kingdoms that often went to war with one another for hundreds of years.)

However, the problem with dictators is when they "cross the line" it happens the threat is real. Young has not crossed it yet but he is da** close to it. He needs to be reminded of that. I am not saying I am against it I am just saying the danger does exist.

bobsuncorp
June 21st, 2010, 06:41 AM
One emperor in particular was responsible for creating more death in his reign than the hundreds of years before it but the end result was a unified China. (China used to be 7 divided kingdoms that often went to war with one another for hundreds of years.)

That was Quin wasn't it? I think I saw a Jet Li movie about that. I get most of my historical knowledge from movies and tv and Asterix and Bernard Cornwell books.


However, the problem with dictators is when they "cross the line" it happens the threat is real. Young has not crossed it yet but he is da** close to it. He needs to be reminded of that. I am not saying I am against it I am just saying the danger does exist.

I liked a quote I heard in the Tim Roth show Lie To Me (another british boy done good) "Do you know what they call a government that breaks the rules every time there is an emergency? A dictatorship". He was referring at the time to Homeland Security about to render a muslim immigrant to Guantanamo because they suspected he may be part of a terrorist cell - he wasn't.

I also read (in a scifi book so take this with a large amount of salt) that the Russian constitution of the USSR was a liberal document giving all sorts of promises about protecting civil liberties unless a state of national emergency was declared. Which happened very quickly. Kind of like Chancellor Palpatine in his path to make himself emperor.

TENTHIUS
June 21st, 2010, 08:06 AM
In Young we trust...do we?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 08:23 AM
In Young we trust...do we?

yes :D

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 08:25 AM
Yup, trusting Young works GREAT! Just ask Rivers! And Riley! And TJ's baby! ^_~

Heckuva job, Youngy!

Ashman
June 21st, 2010, 08:46 AM
Young is good just him time. BTW Commander's listen to advice when they ask for it, not when others try to give it.

JustAnotherVoice
June 21st, 2010, 09:00 AM
Yup, trusting Young works GREAT! Just ask Rivers! And Riley! And TJ's baby! ^_~

Heckuva job, Youngy!

With that weedy moustache, Rivers got everything he deserved, and deserves everything coming to him for getting TJ's baby in the crossfire! Now, if he had a Tom Selleck, things would have been different.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 10:31 AM
Yup, trusting Young works GREAT! Just ask Rivers! And Riley! And TJ's baby! ^_~

Heckuva job, Youngy!

You know, if this wasn't an attempt at a joke, I'd probably say something like: better than trusting Rush! Just ask...everyone on Destiny!

But, since this was an attempt at a joke, I won't say that.

By the way, the number of people Young's lost is a lot less than the number of people Hammond and Weir lost in their show's first seasons. In Young we trust indeed. ;)

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 02:31 PM
You know, if this wasn't an attempt at a joke, I'd probably say something like: better than trusting Rush! Just ask...everyone on Destiny!p

Yes, but Young is in charge, Rush isn't. ;p And funny you should mention "everyone on Destiny" because everyone on Destiny is about to die. Or at least the military. Of course, they have plot armor so people are going to survive, but if it were really realistic, a ton of people would be about to die.


But, since this was an attempt at a joke, I won't say that.

Cute. And everyone sees through it. =)


By the way, the number of people Young's lost is a lot less than the number of people Hammond and Weir lost in their show's first seasons. In Young we trust indeed. ;)

But very few to bad decisions, and they made tons of really good ones. People can die even despite good decisions. And, as we've already established, SGU is a different type of show, and thus not comparable to SG-1 and SGA.

GateroomGuard
June 21st, 2010, 03:15 PM
With that weedy moustache, Rivers got everything he deserved, and deserves everything coming to him for getting TJ's baby in the crossfire! Now, if he had a Tom Selleck, things would have been different.

Yeah 5 minutes after being taken hostage he'd already be a member of Kiva's book club if he had the Selleckstache.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 03:22 PM
Yes, but Young is in charge, Rush isn't. ;p And funny you should mention "everyone on Destiny" because everyone on Destiny is about to die. Or at least the military. Of course, they have plot armor so people are going to survive, but if it were really realistic, a ton of people would be about to die.

Rush certainly thought he was in charge when he dialed Destiny. :p


Cute. And everyone sees through it. =)

I would hope so; it's not like I tried to be subtle. ;)


People can die even despite good decisions.

Indeed.

Innnnndeeeeeeed.

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 03:47 PM
Rush certainly thought he was in charge when he dialed Icarus. :p

"Thought" being the key word. And this thread is about Young, not Rush. By trying to go down this path, you're trying to distract people from the main point. Usually people only do that if they realize their main point is on shaky ground. =)

[/quote]Indeed.[/QUOTE]

So, I guess we're agreed that Young has issues and should be relieved of command. ^_^

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 03:54 PM
"Thought" being the key word.

And it showed how he'd command if given the chance.


And this thread is about Young, not Rush. By trying to go down this path, you're trying to distract people from the main point. Usually people only do that if they realize their main point is on shaky ground. =)

Actually, Rush was mentioned in the first post of the thread as another candidate for commander, so no distraction needed. Besides, I'm not here to make any giant arguments like some of the others in this thread; I'm just here for a spot o' fun.


So, I guess we're agreed that Young has issues and should be relieved of command. ^_^

Issues? Sure. Who doesn't?

Relieved of command? Let's see what the writers have for Season 2.

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 04:08 PM
And it showed how he'd command if given the chance.

Based on Justice, I'd say you're wrong. He has no real interest in command, just in being free to conduct science however he'd like. So, at best, head of a science team.


Actually, Rush was mentioned in the first post of the thread as another candidate for commander, so no distraction needed. Besides, I'm not here to make any giant arguments like some of the others in this thread; I'm just here for a spot o' fun.

Well, it's a bad argument to make to me. I actually agree Rush isn't a good person for overall command, either. While I like his cold logic, I recognize he doesn't have what it takes either. My whole argument has been, "Well, Young seems bad. Perhaps it's time to try some other people in command, and see how they do. If they are worse, fine, we'll go back to Young. But we won't know if they are better or worse until we try."

Personally, I'd try Wray out. She seems a bit more level-headed at least.


Issues? Sure. Who doesn't?

Relieved of command? Let's see what the writers have for Season 2.

People in positions of authority, though, are held to a higher standard, because they have command over the lives of other people. And some people have less issues than him at the moment.

LIke I said, if this were reality, Young would have just gotten EVERYONE killed. Rush may have stranded them, but they were still alive. But they have plot armor, so probably all will live through it. Except for Telford, perhaps.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 04:28 PM
See, that I can agree with. Changing the status quo is risky, but it's also a lot of fun if done right. I would definitely not mind seeing others in charge for whatever reason - that's why I didn't state a position to the "Relived of Command?" thing. In the other Young thread (the one with the really long title), I said that it'd be interesting seeing Telford in command for a while, for instance.

And sure, seeing Rush and Wray in new roles would certainly be a great way to flesh out their characters. We saw the budding interactions Wray had with the Destiny crew in Justice and I would love to see more of that. I agree that Rush is more suited to doing his own thing with the science team, but I think it'd be great if he was forced into command, somehow. Again, push them out of their comfort zones. That's usually good for drama and such.

I like how this little snarkfest suddenly turned serious and cordial. ;)

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 04:50 PM
...kumbaya....
*snickers* sorry, couldn't help it :D

Cory Holmes
June 21st, 2010, 09:04 PM
...kumbaya....
*snickers* sorry, couldn't help it :D

Sure you could have, you just chose not to. We know you better than that! :p

EDIT to say: Team Young FTW!!

GateroomGuard
June 21st, 2010, 09:09 PM
...kumbaya....
*snickers* sorry, couldn't help it :D

Young procedes to headbutt you while Rush stabs you with a screwdriver and Wray talks at you.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 09:40 PM
NO!! NOT THE TALKING!!

I'll save you xxxevilgrinxxx!!

*Chucks KINO at Wray*

*It's supereffective!*

JustAnotherVoice
June 21st, 2010, 10:16 PM
NO!! NOT THE TALKING!!

I'll save you xxxevilgrinxxx!!

*Chucks KINO at Wray*

*It's supereffective!*

Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 22nd, 2010, 05:49 AM
Young procedes to headbutt you while Rush stabs you with a screwdriver and Wray talks at you.
no, no, no...it's the talking first, and then I ask for a headbutt and the Mighty Shiv of Justice from Rush, just to make it all go away :)


NO!! NOT THE TALKING!!

I'll save you xxxevilgrinxxx!!

*Chucks KINO at Wray*

*It's supereffective!*
*hits Wray off the dome with a musical BONG!!!*


*coughs* ahem, and yes, in Young we trust!

bobsuncorp
June 22nd, 2010, 12:14 PM
Who let these people in?

I don't know, it's like you think this show is supposed to be entertainment or something...

bobsuncorp
June 22nd, 2010, 12:17 PM
Wow xxxevilgrinxxx I've just noticed what you have written as your signature! I feel honoured.

So, erm... will I be getting a royalty cheque in the post?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 22nd, 2010, 12:26 PM
Wow xxxevilgrinxxx I've just noticed what you have written as your signature! I feel honoured.

So, erm... will I be getting a royalty cheque in the post?

It's in the mail, Bob :D

As for entertainment, the show is super entertaing, or this level of discussion would never happen :)

bobsuncorp
June 23rd, 2010, 09:50 AM
It's in the mail, Bob :D

As for entertainment, the show is super entertaing, or this level of discussion would never happen :)

darn skippy!

I think we should start a poll. Who everyone thinks should be in command. We have all put in our comments about Young's pro's and con's and also about whether Rush or Wray would do a better job or should be allowed to give it a try.

So let's have Destiny Elections!

Here are the candidates. And please people, put yourselves in the position of a member of Destiny, civilian or SG personnel. Remember that whoever gets the job will have it for the forseeable future, not just for a day or so and can be replaced whenever. Young will still be available to lead the military on defending the ship, but remember that if he is not in charge then his ability to do this is severely limited from currently because he will be in the position of getting us (the crewmembers) out of trouble rather than preventing us from getting into it. We know more than the Destineers because we have the all seeing eye of the viewer, so we can make an informed decision.

When you have chosen who you want to lead us, say their name and increase the number next to it by 1, so that it is easy to see how many votes people have. Or if you prefer, reply quote the bullet points I have put below and increase the number of your candidate. One vote each guys! And remember, this is to last, so think about it cos there will likely not be the opportunity to change your mind:


Col Everett Young
Dr Nicholas Rush
Camille Wray
Lt Matthew Scott
Eli Wallace
Lt Tamara Johanson
Col David Telford

bobsuncorp
June 23rd, 2010, 09:51 AM
I've started things off with my vote. Bet you didn't see that one coming!




Col Everett Young 1
Dr Nicholas Rush
Camille Wray
Lt Matthew Scott
Eli Wallace
Lt Tamara Johanson
Col David Telford

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 23rd, 2010, 09:53 AM
... One vote each guys! And remember, this is to last, so think about it cos there will likely not be the opportunity to change your mind:


Col Everett Young +2
Dr Nicholas Rush
Camille Wray
Lt Matthew Scott
Eli Wallace
Lt Tamara Johanson
Col David Telford

hedwig
June 23rd, 2010, 09:53 AM
darn skippy!

I think we should start a poll. Who everyone thinks should be in command. We have all put in our comments about Young's pro's and con's and also about whether Rush or Wray would do a better job or should be allowed to give it a try.

So let's have Destiny Elections!

Here are the candidates. And please people, put yourselves in the position of a member of Destiny, civilian or SG personnel. Remember that whoever gets the job will have it for the forseeable future, not just for a day or so and can be replaced whenever. Young will still be available to lead the military on defending the ship, but remember that if he is not in charge then his ability to do this is severely limited from currently because he will be in the position of getting us (the crewmembers) out of trouble rather than preventing us from getting into it. We know more than the Destineers because we have the all seeing eye of the viewer, so we can make an informed decision.

When you have chosen who you want to lead us, say their name and increase the number next to it by 1, so that it is easy to see how many votes people have. Or if you prefer, reply quote the bullet points I have put below and increase the number of your candidate. One vote each guys! And remember, this is to last, so think about it cos there will likely not be the opportunity to change your mind:


Col Everett Young
Dr Nicholas Rush
Camille Wray
Lt Matthew Scott
Eli Wallace
Lt Tamara Johanson
Col David Telford


You could ask the mods to create a poll at the top of this thread and then each person can vote, and the results will be interesting to see.

•Col Everett Young +3
•Dr Nicholas Rush
•Camille Wray
•Lt Matthew Scott
•Eli Wallace
•Lt Tamara Johanson
•Col David Telford

bobsuncorp
June 23rd, 2010, 10:00 AM
You could ask the mods to create a poll at the top of this thread and then each person can vote, and the results will be interesting to see.


I thought about that, but I always go to the end of a post I am subscribed to (or rather the first unread post) and so wouldn't want to check the top every time. I also thought about starting a new thread for the poll but I decided that those who had already been discussing this topic would have had the opportunity to really think about and listen to the various arguements, and could therefore make a more informed decision. But hey if the majority wants to do that I will go baaa (like a sheep).

jelgate
June 23rd, 2010, 10:07 AM
Bag+1

Kelara
June 23rd, 2010, 10:45 AM
Telford +1

(Would have votet for Tamara, but alas, there's the baby issue in limbo...)

bobsuncorp
June 23rd, 2010, 10:57 AM
Telford +1

(Would have votet for Tamara, but alas, there's the baby issue in limbo...)

Sorry I should have said that this is assuming that all the characters are in a position to take command. In other words, alive and physically fit. If you meant that you don't think TJ will be psychologically fit because of having/losing/almost losing her baby then fair enough.

Oh and who is BAG? Brian Austin Green?

jelgate
June 23rd, 2010, 11:05 AM
Oh and who is BAG? Brian Austin Green?

:eek:I'll pretend you didn't say that.

How can anyone be ignorant of BaldingAsianGuy

Kelara
June 23rd, 2010, 12:02 PM
Sorry I should have said that this is assuming that all the characters are in a position to take command. In other words, alive and physically fit. If you meant that you don't think TJ will be psychologically fit because of having/losing/almost losing her baby then fair enough.


Heh, if you're asking for psychological fitness, then Young might disqualify as well ;) (or just-out-of-brainwashing-Telford, for that matter). Don't make it too complicated :P.

But no matter, physiologically and psychologically the loss will hit too deep with TJ to put her in command just now. Much to my regret.

KatG
June 23rd, 2010, 12:43 PM
Per request, here's your poll

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75669-Who-should-be-in-command-of-Destiny

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 23rd, 2010, 12:46 PM
thanks :D

bobsuncorp
June 23rd, 2010, 01:16 PM
:eek:I'll pretend you didn't say that.

How can anyone be ignorant of BaldingAsianGuy

This sounds like a running joke that I am completely unaware of.

Thanks to the mod for putting up the poll on a seperate thread, but unfortunately it's not being taken as seriously as the ongoing discussion we've been having on this thread, with people suggesting temporary commanders, oh and the ship.

Artemis-Neith
June 24th, 2010, 12:00 AM
Yeah, I'm the first one to make a choose in the new created poll! :D

I voted for Camille! Surprise?

Reasons are easy to explain. I'm used to live under democratic structures, responsibilities to rule people should be in different hands.

The group as a whole should be under civilian authority. The military people keep their CO, which should be, IMO, shared between Telford (in case he'll make it in season 2) and Young, until Young is stable enough again to go in the first position like he was from the beginning. With a few exceptions (the first days on Destiny, the alien encounter, and now the LA) I don't see the necessity to keep the people on Destiny the whole time under the law of war. It is not necessary, even for a group of 70 something people, where the not military part is the majority.

Furthermore, we have a third party on Destiny, the scientists, who are part of the civilians, but with a competence of their own. Rush should be in charge for this team, because he's the most qualified person to do it.

All three parties, civilians, military, and scientists should also start to work together, they should make decisions together, not against each other. Every single one of the group has his/her competence to go that way. Camile Wray is able to lead the group as a whole, she can listen to people, she can compromise if necessary (the two men are not that good in doing this), from all the people we've seen so far, she's the one with the most experience to do the job.

To sum up: I go with separations of power, with a civilian leader.

EllieVee
June 24th, 2010, 02:51 AM
There's no 'None of the above' choice, which is mine.

* Col Everett Young (pyschologically unsound)
* Dr Nicholas Rush (would prefer to be in charge of the science team; not interested in much else)
* Camille Wray (wants to be in charge - see Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)
* Lt Matthew Scott (too inexperienced)
* Eli Wallace (sure, if it's about video games, documentaries and spying, he's your guy)
* Lt Tamara Johanson (has no real authority now outside of being the medic)
* Col David Telford (untrustworthy)

The only possible choice of those on the ship (or not because he is everywhere) is BAG.

bobsuncorp
June 24th, 2010, 04:51 AM
There's no 'None of the above' choice, which is mine.

* Col Everett Young (pyschologically unsound)
* Dr Nicholas Rush (would prefer to be in charge of the science team; not interested in much else)
* Camille Wray (wants to be in charge - see Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)
* Lt Matthew Scott (too inexperienced)
* Eli Wallace (sure, if it's about video games, documentaries and spying, he's your guy)
* Lt Tamara Johanson (has no real authority now outside of being the medic)
* Col David Telford (untrustworthy)

The only possible choice of those on the ship (or not because he is everywhere) is BAG.

Thanks to the power that be (is) that has put a more limited poll at the top of this thread. I am glad that there is no "other" or "none of the above" because that is not an option that the Destineers themselves have, and that is exactly the kind of result that I am looking for.

The crew have to decide if having the wrong leader (in some circumstances) is worse than having no leader and they have to choose from the pool of personnel that they have available to them. It is obvious that Gen O'Neill would make a better commander, but that is not a practical option. Even if they were willing to tie up a communication stone and accept the power drain there would be times (like everytime they go in and out of FTL) that they would temporarily lose him, or maybe when he is saying "almost...wait for it, timing on this has to be just right...ready....fi- what the hells going on?"

So yeah, you may think that Young's mistakes make him due for replacement, but the question is not whether someone else could do a better job but whether someone else who is already there could do a consistantly better job.

Which also rules out deified dead people named after portable containers.

EllieVee
June 24th, 2010, 05:36 AM
Thanks to the power that be (is) that has put a more limited poll at the top of this thread. I am glad that there is no "other" or "none of the above" because that is not an option that the Destineers themselves have, and that is exactly the kind of result that I am looking for.

The crew have to decide if having the wrong leader (in some circumstances) is worse than having no leader and they have to choose from the pool of personnel that they have available to them. It is obvious that Gen O'Neill would make a better commander, but that is not a practical option. Even if they were willing to tie up a communication stone and accept the power drain there would be times (like everytime they go in and out of FTL) that they would temporarily lose him, or maybe when he is saying "almost...wait for it, timing on this has to be just right...ready....fi- what the hells going on?"

So yeah, you may think that Young's mistakes make him due for replacement, but the question is not whether someone else could do a better job but whether someone else who is already there could do a consistantly better job.

Which also rules out deified dead people named after portable containers.

Except, these limitations were not mentioned in your original post about an election. Can't be adding rules when you don't get the answers you want. And if it's limited to people on Destiny, then why is Greer and Chloe and random redshirt number ten not there?

Kelara
June 24th, 2010, 07:12 AM
Point... if Eli makes the possible leaders list, Chloe, Volker, Park, James, Brody and even Becker could be on there as well. Oh yeah, Greer, well, for completeness' sake ;).

I'm also starting to wonder how many times this poll will be restarted. The vote for Tamara and at least one Wray vote was lost :(. Plus Telford (why is his name in italics anyway) was on par with Young when I voted in the last thing.

Edit: Ah, I see, we have now 2 quite similar votes going. That's a little confusing.

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 24th, 2010, 07:32 AM
There's no 'None of the above' choice, which is mine.

* Col Everett Young (pyschologically unsound)
* Dr Nicholas Rush (would prefer to be in charge of the science team; not interested in much else)
* Camille Wray (wants to be in charge - see Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)
* Lt Matthew Scott (too inexperienced)
* Eli Wallace (sure, if it's about video games, documentaries and spying, he's your guy)
* Lt Tamara Johanson (has no real authority now outside of being the medic)
* Col David Telford (untrustworthy)

The only possible choice of those on the ship (or not because he is everywhere) is BAG.
What's wrong with Telford? Since being released from the brain washing he's shown why he was chosen to be the leader of the original expedition. He's competent, calm, collected and can think on his feet. Not likely that he's going to be put in charge in season 2, even if if survives his gunshot wound, he'd make things too easy for the crew. But of all the people at the end of season 2 he is most suited for command.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 24th, 2010, 07:35 AM
What's wrong with Telford? Since being released from the brain washing he's shown why he was chosen to be the leader of the original expedition. He's competent, calm, collected and can think on his feet. Not likely that he's going to be put in charge in season 2, even if if survives his gunshot wound, he'd make things too easy for the crew. But of all the people at the end of season 2 he is most suited for command.

I agree that he's the most suited but I don't think he's going to live and I get the feeling that he defers to Young in any case. If he did live, I can easily see it becoming much like it did on Icarus, with Young in charge of the base (Destiny) and Telford in charge of anyone going through the gate. But I don;t think the writers want anything nearly that clean :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 24th, 2010, 08:12 AM
I agree that he's the most suited but I don't think he's going to live and I get the feeling that he defers to Young in any case. If he did live, I can easily see it becoming much like it did on Icarus, with Young in charge of the base (Destiny) and Telford in charge of anyone going through the gate. But I don;t think the writers want anything nearly that clean :)

Yeah I highly doubt tptb are going to let anyone competent, experienced and firmly in control be in charge of the Destiny. Their having far too much fun putting people in impossible positions. Now for a laugh lets have Eli in charge. That would be a chuckle. :D

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 24th, 2010, 08:16 AM
Yeah I highly doubt tptb are going to let anyone competent, experienced and firmly in control be in charge of the Destiny. Their having far too much fun putting people in impossible positions. Now for a laugh lets have Eli in charge. That would be a chuckle. :D

snorks, it could be like the EU, with a sort of a rotating presidency :D
I'm really liking that they're building this sort of doubt, where we don't get these perfect leaders who always do the right things that we can all get behind. It's been neat :)

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 24th, 2010, 08:20 AM
snorks, it could be like the EU, with a sort of a rotating presidency :D

Oh yay, I'm sure that would work out well. :P

Heh I mean recently the EU demanded to look at the UK budget, and Dave Cameron basically just went no, bugger off. :DWhat would be the SGU equivalent I wonder?

Wray: Sergeant Greer what's the security situation?
Greer: Go away I'm not telling you!

Fun all round.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 24th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Oh yay, I'm sure that would work out well. :P

Heh I mean recently the EU demanded to look at the UK budget, and Dave Cameron basically just went no, bugger off. :DWhat would be the SGU equivalent I wonder?

Wray: Sergeant Greer what's the security situation?
Greer: Go away I'm not telling you!

Fun all round.

yes, yes it would be http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/XXXevilgrinXXX/evilgrin.gif

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 24th, 2010, 08:36 AM
yes, yes it would be http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/XXXevilgrinXXX/evilgrin.gif

That being said can SGU find a leader as weak an ineffectual as this man?
http://www.novinite.com/media/images/2009-12/photo_verybig_111023.jpg

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 24th, 2010, 08:39 AM
I think I;d probably recognize a name before a pic - who is it?

Lahela
June 24th, 2010, 08:46 AM
Point... if Eli makes the possible leaders list, Chloe, Volker, Park, James, Brody and even Becker could be on there as well. Oh yeah, Greer, well, for completeness' sake ;).

I'm also starting to wonder how many times this poll will be restarted. The vote for Tamara and at least one Wray vote was lost :(. Plus Telford (why is his name in italics anyway) was on par with Young when I voted in the last thing.

Edit: Ah, I see, we have now 2 quite similar votes going. That's a little confusing.

Because you voted for him - in any GW poll your vote is italicised. A feature I very much appreciate, so I can remember who I voted for. :)

Kelara
June 24th, 2010, 09:49 AM
Because you voted for him - in any GW poll your vote is italicised. A feature I very much appreciate, so I can remember who I voted for. :)

Ah, so it's my vote that makes him special :D (yep, I'm all for sane, stable, in control commanders... give me Telford over Young any day).

Thx for explaining the board features to this newbie :)!
~~~~~

The guy on the photo happens to be Herman Van Rompuy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Van_Rompuy) by the way, President of the european Council.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 24th, 2010, 10:40 AM
The president of the EU has little power and don't we have two anyway, we are stronger together.

jelgate
June 24th, 2010, 10:43 AM
The president of the EU has little power and don't we have two anyway, we are stronger together.

The European Union doesn't really have that much power either so its not surprising

Girlbot
June 24th, 2010, 10:53 AM
I voted for Young. and aparently Jack O Neill agrees, he gave him the go ahead to "do what you have to" with Telford.

Kermee
June 24th, 2010, 12:23 PM
I chose Col. Everett Young, but maybe the Destiny crew should have an election.

bobsuncorp
June 25th, 2010, 03:44 AM
Except, these limitations were not mentioned in your original post about an election. Can't be adding rules when you don't get the answers you want. And if it's limited to people on Destiny, then why is Greer and Chloe and random redshirt number ten not there?

True I didn't specifically eliminate dead people and people who are not on the ship, but I honestly didn't think I had to. The reason I listed the candidates is that just like in every other election, you have to choose from what you have available. I did miss off Chloe and Greer, my bad, but in fairness I was stretching it with TJ and Scott, since they would be giving orders to their C.O. (unless they left the military like Lee Adama did) but at least they are already officers. Greer may be a highly experienced NCO but he is not qualified for extended independent command of a large group of people and a ship, or he would already be an officer.

EllieVee
June 25th, 2010, 03:48 AM
My vote still goes to BAG then.

bobsuncorp
June 25th, 2010, 11:17 AM
My vote still goes to BAG then.

furry muff.

BTW how do you upload a custom avatar? I could only find an option to upload a profile pic.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 25th, 2010, 11:19 AM
furry muff.

BTW how do you upload a custom avatar? I could only find an option to upload a profile pic.

*snorks* that doesn't mean what you think it means :)
you're going to have to have about 1800 more posts :)

bobsuncorp
June 25th, 2010, 11:22 AM
*snorks* that doesn't mean what you think it means :)
you're going to have to have about 1800 more posts :)

I'm 12 (plus 19 years) and I don't understand...

jelgate
June 25th, 2010, 11:33 AM
furry muff.

BTW how do you upload a custom avatar? I could only find an option to upload a profile pic.

You can't unpload custom avatars. Only people around 2000 posts or more can upload customs. I say around because the exact number changes all the time

bobsuncorp
June 25th, 2010, 11:52 AM
You can't unpload custom avatars. Only people around 2000 posts or more can upload customs. I say around because the exact number changes all the time

Fair Enough. (get it? Yes I know I am very mature)

Anyway... Back on topic:

Vote Young! Vote Young!

EllieVee
June 25th, 2010, 06:55 PM
furry muff.

BTW how do you upload a custom avatar? I could only find an option to upload a profile pic.

You have to have over 2000 posts. Get going, you've a long way to go!

bobsuncorp
June 25th, 2010, 07:15 PM
O

K

then (only joking)

FallenAngelII
June 26th, 2010, 02:29 AM
It's against the rules to even double-post (you'll get an infraction). Triple posting is even worse (2 infractions, I believe). Doing it on accident will often get you off the hook, doing it on purpose, even as a joke, will pretty much guarantee you an infraction or two. Please don't do it again.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 26th, 2010, 05:35 AM
It's against the rules to even double-post (you'll get an infraction). Triple posting is even worse (2 infractions, I believe). Doing it on accident will often get you off the hook, doing it on purpose, even as a joke, will pretty much guarantee you an infraction or two. Please don't do it again.

I didn't know that, to paraphrase a friends episode I thought it was frowned upon but not against the rules. Well it's a good thing I don't double post then.

jelgate
June 26th, 2010, 05:44 AM
I didn't know that, to paraphrase a friends episode I thought it was frowned upon but not against the rules. Well it's a good thing I don't double post then.

It depends on the reason for the double post. Nonsense post like those are defiantly against the rules. I don't think it would be severe enough to give you an infraction

EllieVee
June 26th, 2010, 05:04 PM
Defiantly against the rules? Definitely, maybe, but defiantly?

jelgate
June 26th, 2010, 05:15 PM
Don't you have better things to do then be petty about spelling mistakes?

EllieVee
June 26th, 2010, 05:26 PM
Don't you have better things to do then be petty about spelling mistakes?

Given that defiantly is a word all its own, I wasn't aware you'd made one.