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Blackhole
June 13th, 2010, 09:54 AM
I wanted to give Young the benefit of the doubt but based on his performance and behavior in this last episode I think he has emotionally and psychologically crumbled. His intentions were good but he no longer possesses the psychological stability to continue in command and needs to be replaced. It was his inaction from fear to do anything to risk the hostages’ lives that was responsible for LA taking control of the ship and putting everyone’s lives in imminent mortal danger.

It has been argued by some that it was a mistake to not to immediately evacuate the air from the gate room. Tactically I agree but I can understand his decision to delay to first see if he could negotiate their surrender and save Telford who was likely his good friend before he was brainwashed. He didn’t expect they would have the door opening devices that would very quickly allow them to exit (Although, they could have just as easily used explosives to free themselves). Once Eli told him they had devices to open the door he gave the order to evacuate the air but it was too late.

From this point Young completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Remember his emotional outburst to Park and the others and when he tried to attack Rush when he accurately criticized his tactics. Young stormed into the command center and started yelling at everyone to fix the problem. When they attempted to explain that they didn’t know what was wrong he yelled louder “Don’t analyze just fix it!”. I think for a moment he was completely out of control and hysterical. The expressions on all their faces confirmed they had similar thoughts as well. Rush was being Rush and tactlessly pointed out that Young’s fear to act and endanger anyone’s life was what was responsible for getting him killed. He knew that Young was paralyzed by his fear of doing anything that would risk the hostages’ lives and by default was allowing Kiva free reign. Rush spent a lot of time with her he knew how ruthless she was and that the death toll was just going to rise the longer he delayed taking action against her. Rush rubbed Young’s nose in that reality and Young lost it and tried to attack him. Circumstances unfortunately proved him absolutely correct.

I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly stupid. Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have known she is not to be trusted or reasoned with. He should have evacuated the room to near vacuum to incapacitate them and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses before the situation escalated but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone.

Relying on Telford's plan imo was asinine as evidenced by what happened. It was far too risky and too many things could have gone wrong.

Go back and rewatch the scene in the command center after Kiva kills the solider before you disagree with me. You can see in Young’s face that he looked hysterical for a moment and from the expressions on the faces of Park, Volker, Brody, and Rush they all realized it as well. I am not Young bashing. Imo the show is not just portraying a character that has made mistakes in judgment but as one that is psychologically crumbling. O’Neill’s direct criticism of his judgment is more evidence. It was Young’s inability to act from a fear to risk the hostages’ lives that resulted in LA taking over the ship and placing everyone’s life in mortal peril.

The Mighty 6 platoon’s assessment that he has PTSD may be accurate and intended by the writers. I would be extremely surprised if his mental state doesn’t continue to deteriorate over future episodes and is the focus a major plot line.

Who will replace him is the problem. All the other officers are junior and not ready for command. TJ’s comment of disapproval to Young when he told her about his plan to evacuate the gate room shows me she probably isn’t suited either. If Telford survives it is a possibility but even though he was brainwashed having him assume command doesn’t sit well with me. Wray certainly isn’t qualified. It will be interesting to see what happens. Who knows if LA will take over the ship and for how long? Maybe Young will redeem himself and retake the ship? Will have to wait and see.

marty2006
June 13th, 2010, 10:00 AM
Would still rather than have Young than Wray. Im gutted Wray wasnt murdered in the finale.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 11:26 AM
I wanted to give Young the benefit of the doubt but based on his performance and behavior in this last episode I think he has emotionally and psychologically crumbled. His intentions were good but he no longer possesses the psychological stability to continue in command and needs to be replaced. It was his inaction from fear to do anything to risk the hostages’ lives that was responsible for LA taking control of the ship and putting everyone’s lives in imminent mortal peril.I don't think Young has ever been completely psychologically stable but I don't think it was inaction from fear. I think it was inaction in not wanting to rish Rush (who he believed was in Telford's body)'s life and thereby Telford's as well, as both men would die, he'd believe. He had no reason to believe that the LA could get those doors open and he sought to negotiate to spare a man's life. Should he have vented the room? Probably. But if he had, we'd be having another sort of debate about how he always wanted to kill...blah blah blah. You know how it goes :)


It has been argued by some that it was a mistake to not to immediately evacuate the air from the gate room. Tactically I agree but I can understand his decision to delay to first see if he could negotiate their surrender and save Telford who was likely his good friend before he was brainwashed. He didn’t expect they would have the door opening devices that would very quickly allow them to exit (Although, they could have just as easily used explosives to free themselves). Once Eli told him they had devices to open the door he gave the order to evacuate the air but it was too late.there we go. "Tactically I agree." and yes, tactically I agree too. He really had nothing to lose at that moment as he had no way to know that the LA could get out of the gateroom anyway. So he negotiates to save someone, and we're back at the beginning.


From this point Young completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Remember his emotional outburst to Park and the others I don't believe that he's completely lost control of the situation. He continues to negotiate and plan to get the hostages back, while dealing with a pulsar that will kill them all, and dealing with Telford in a plan to change events. He's got a lot on his plate but I wouldn't say he's lost it. As for yelling, yelling is sort of something Young does. He's used to dealing with military personnel and he's a yeller. That he's yelling now doesn't mean that he's lost control. Also, later when Park says "Don't yell", he has no problem not yelling.



and when he tried to attack Rush when he accurately criticized his tactics. I saw that as having nothing to do with Rush questioning tactics and more about Rush saying something that could be seen as callous about the death of Rivers, one of Young's men. Rish didn't mention anything about tactics in that exchange
that exchange is:
YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

PARK (appalled): What?!

(Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

(Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

(Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

(Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

(Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.) here is no mention of tactics in that exchange so I really don't know where that comes from.



Young stormed into the command center and started yelling at everyone to fix the problem. When they attempted to explain that they didn’t know what was wrong he yelled louder “Don’t analyze just fix it!”. I think for a moment he was completely out of control and was hysterical. again, he's a yeller. He's always been a yeller and he's always yelled at them to fix it. This isn't much different than any other time. I didn't see hysteria there but YMMV


The expressions on all their faces confirmed they had similar thoughts as well. Rush was being Rush and tactlessly pointed out that Young’s fear to act and endanger anyone’s life was what was responsible for getting him killed. I hate to say it but that didn't happen as the transcript piece above shows. You may be conflating it with a snippet from a previous episode? In any case, it didn't happen here.



He knew that Young was paralyzed by his fear of doing anything that would risk the hostages’ lives and by default was allowing Kiva free reign. Rush spent a lot of time with her he knew the death toll was just going to rise the longer he delayed taking action against her. Rush rubbed Young’s nose in that reality and Young lost it and tried to attack him. Circumstances unfortunately proved him absolutely correct.Rush rubbed his nose in the death of one of Young's men. That's not being paralyzed with fear, as Young has had no problem making plans on the ground after the initial failure to vent the gate room.


I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly stupid. he turned over food and water (that was agreed to by Wray, who was negotiating) in order to get people back. Should he have refused and let people be killed? What good is keeping food and water if all your people are dead? With the pulsar, they needed Kiva to agree, or all of them would die. I don't get how that's stupid. He continues to have Kiva agree to things and continues to maneuver Kiva into a position that he can work with. It goes without saying that the food and water are probably also deeply appreciated by the hostages on the other side who are also doing without, or would it be okay to starve them all?



Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have known she is not to be trusted or reasoned with. I think he's well aware of that but he still has to try to work with her to get his people back


He should have evacuated the room to near vacuum to incapacitate them and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone.Young and Telford's plan was to have all the hostages coralled into a certain room and have all connecting areas vented. Just because that plan hasn't been completed in this episode doesn't mean that it won't happen.


Relying on Telford's plan imo was asinine as evidenced by what happened. It was far too risky and too many things could have gone wrong.we won't know that until the next season. The part of the plan that has happened is that, rather than having the LA and hostages all in the gate room and intermingled, the hostages are separate, and locked in a room. There's no way to know if they are guarded from the inside but iot wouldn't make sense for the LA to be there with that many people to control. So, hostages in a locked room and the LA outside. It looks like their plan is going okay to me or at least going the way they wanted it to go.


Go back and rewatch the scene in the command center after Kiva kills the solider before you disagree with me. You can see in Young’s face that he looked hysterical for a moment and from the expressions on the faces of Park, Volker, Brody, and Rush they all realized it as well. Shock and anger at people dying is pretty normal. It doesn't equal hysteria.


I am not Young bashing. Imo the show is not just portraying a character that has made mistakes in judgment but as one that is psychologically crumbling. O’Neill’s direct criticism of his judgment is more evidence. It was Young’s inability to act from a fear to risk the hostages’ lives that resulted in LA taking over the ship and placing everyone’s life in mortal peril.

The Mighty 6 platoon’s assessment that he has PTSD may be accurate and intended by the writers. I would be extremely surprised if his mental state doesn’t continue to deteriorate over future episodes and is the focus a major plot line.

Who will replace him is the problem. All the other officers are junior and not ready for command. TJ’s comment of disapproval to Young when he told her about his plan to evacuate the gate room shows me she probably isn’t suited either. If Telford survives it is a possibility but even though he was brainwashed having him assume command doesn’t sit well with me. Wray certainly isn’t qualified. It will be interesting to see what happens. Who knows if LA will take over the ship and for how long? Maybe Young will redeem himself and retake the ship? Will have to wait and see.The thing is, I think you are Young bashing.
Is Young right for this command? No. Even Young the character would agree to that. Is Young damaged and likely suffering from PTSD? You bet. But I think that when you take it as far as you have, even to the point of conflating events or seeing things that simply didn't happen, just to bag on a character? yeah, I think that's bashing.

jelgate
June 13th, 2010, 11:44 AM
Whats the altenative? Wray? Telford? Rush? Scott?

I think we all know Young has his problems but then again so does everyone else on this ship. Minus BAG of course.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Whats the altenative? Wray? Telford? Rush? Scott?

I think we all know Young has his problems but then again so does everyone else on this ship. Minus BAG of course.

If only Riley could stop getting shot or smashed up, put Riley in charge :)
okay, so I said that just to make MattSilver's heart go all pitterpatter but you're right, their options are pretty crummy and at least you can work with Young

Shai Hulud
June 13th, 2010, 12:03 PM
Thing is, as of Incursion Part 2, the LA are in command of Destiny. Viva la Revolution! Young, Wray, Telford, A.N. Other are in command of diddly squat.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 12:09 PM
Thing is, as of Incursion Part 2, the LA are in command of Destiny. Viva la Revolution! Young, Wray, Telford, A.N. Other are in command of diddly squat.

the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.

Shai Hulud
June 13th, 2010, 12:12 PM
Rush will do whatever the men with guns tell him to do, Brody will follow his lead. Wether those men with guns are LA or SGC remains to be seen. Autumn cant come quick enough! Roll on S2! :D

Major_Griff
June 13th, 2010, 12:12 PM
the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.

Didn't Rush say he couldn't complete the transfer?

Pandora's_Box
June 13th, 2010, 12:15 PM
This is one of those horrible, crazy, impossible-to-foresee situations that every military commander probably dreads happening, prepares for as best as one can, and then is forced to play by ear when it occurs. Why? Because things never ever happen as predicted or expected or willed when people are added to the mix.

Sure, tactically the best option may have seemed to be to vent the entire gate room to space the moment the LA started coming through the wormhole, but not only would that have been a far colder option than I think Young is actually capable of, it's also incredibly short-sighted. Young had no reason to think that he didn't have at least a short amount of time to get more information out of the LA; he had no way to know they had those door-opening devices and so probably figured to use some time to assess the situation further which could have worked to their advantage if the LA happened to be planning a second wave of some sort or if there happened to be more to their plan. Killing them outright may have taken care of those particular infiltrators, but it would have done nothing in the bigger picture if the LA had planned something else as well.

Regardless, venting atmosphere was a moot point because it would have taken far more time than it took the LA to open the doors with their devices, so they would have had those doors open anyway. The end result would have been the same.

Then there were hostages and while it's kind of easy to sit back and assess the situation now, deeming this more wrong and that move better or worse than any other, working in the moment is probably impossible to fathom.

Should Young have killed everyone including the hostages by venting the atmosphere? What would that have accomplished other than ridding the Destiny of the LA (for a short time perhaps)? Who would have followed his command after that? Would it have been worth losing their only medic, a handful of soldiers and scientists? How much longer would they have survived with Wray in charge of a mission demanding military leadership, with Rush off handling his own agenda, and Young probably doubting/hating himself to the point of being useless to everyone aboard the Destiny?

Crappy situation all around, but of all the not-so-great choices for leadership, Young was probably the best. And honestly, considering the strength of the LA and all the time they've had to plan this incursion vs. how much time Destiny has had to plan its defense, I don't think it would have ended up any other way.

Artemis-Neith
June 13th, 2010, 12:17 PM
the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.

Was the transfer complete?

But you're right, in the end Rush, Brody, Eli (Chloe), Greer and Scott are free to act against the LA intruders. I think it's not easy to create a scenario in which they can outsmart the LA, but the five may find a way, the story is not at its end yet.

Blackhole
June 13th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Reply to Post #3 Part 1


I don't think Young has ever been completely psychologically stable but I don't think it was inaction from fear. I think it was inaction in not wanting to rish Rush (who he believed was in Telford's body)'s life and thereby Telford's as well, as both men would die, he'd believe. He had no reason to believe that the LA could get those doors open and he sought to negotiate to spare a man's life. Should he have vented the room? Probably. But if he had, we'd be having another sort of debate about how he always wanted to kill...blah blah blah. You know how it goes :)

there we go. "Tactically I agree." and yes, tactically I agree too. He really had nothing to lose at that moment as he had no way to know that the LA could get out of the gateroom anyway. So he negotiates to save someone, and we're back at the beginning.

Actually we are not back at the beginning because by delaying he gave them time to access their door opening devices and exit the gate room. If Young had immediately evacuated the room all the LA people would have been incapacitated or killed and the attack thwarted. Rush’s life would never have been at risk. As soon as Young saw Telford's body if he had immediately ordered the stones disconnected then it would only have been Telford’s life at risk. After the evacuation he could have rushed in and resuscitated Telford and hopefully saved him.

I said I could understand how Young wanted to delay not that it wasn't a critical error to do so. As I have just explained the attack could have been thwarted and Telford likely saved if he had immediately evacuated the gate room. Young knew that the LA incursion force was likely to be much better equipped than Destiny’s forces. Young also knew if they escaped from the gate room then the ship would likely be taken as it turned out it was.

I realize that everything went down the way it did because the writers intended it that way. They wanted LA to gain a foothold and they wanted a suspenseful season ending cliff hangar. I don’t recall any past season enders in the Stargate world where the enemy had gained their advantage from gross negligence on the commander’s part. Their advantage was usually due to superior technology, very clever planning or just an impending attack. In Incursion 1 & 2 their advantage was due solely to Young’s gross lapse in judgment. Immediately evacuating the gate room was the only action that would have thwarted the attack. He failed to do it in time and LA gained their foothold. This decision and later ones cost him the ship. General O’Neil’s condemnation of Young’s failure proves this point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Otherwise why was the scene included? Add to this Young’s angry outburst in the command center and vis-a vis the intention of the episode was to portray Young making a catastrophic mistake due to significant psychological deterioration? The form of this deterioration was his inability to attack the LA because it put one or more of his men at risk. In the military world this type of decision is unavoidable and probably the hardest to make. Young’s fear of sacrificing one of his men was what stopped him from implementing the evacuation of the gate room when it had to be done.


I don't believe that he's completely lost control of the situation. He continues to negotiate and plan to get the hostages back, while dealing with a pulsar that will kill them all, and dealing with Telford in a plan to change events. He's got a lot on his plate but I wouldn't say he's lost it. As for yelling, yelling is sort of something Young does. He's used to dealing with military personnel and he's a yeller. That he's yelling now doesn't mean that he's lost control. Also, later when Park says "Don't yell", he has no problem not yelling.

I saw that as having nothing to do with Rush questioning tactics and more about Rush saying something that could be seen as callous about the death of Rivers, one of Young's men. Rish didn't mention anything about tactics in that exchange
that exchange is:

YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

PARK (appalled): What?!

(Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

(Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

(Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

(Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

(Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.) here is no mention of tactics in that exchange so I really don't know where that comes from.

Young has yelled at Rush, Spencer and Telford but it was after he was provoked. After he had found out that Franklin had sat in the chair and was now in a coma he yelled at Rush; Telford for trying to sabotage his marriage; Spencer for picking on Franklin I believe it was. I don’t remember him ever yelling during a command crisis situation. I think the last two episodes were the only two instances. In last episode when Rush initially advised him that there was no way to win the battle with LA unless he is willing to risk and possibly sacrifice lives. Young got very angry then because he didn't like to hear what he said. But the clear fact remains that Rush was right and Young was wrong. If Young had immediately evacuated the chamber the attack would have been over and Telford may or may not have died. It was at its worse during Incursion 2. He stormed into the room and yelled at Park and the others. They hadn’t provoked him and his reaction was irrational. How can they fix something when they don’t know what is causing it? The look on Young’s face was very telling. The transcript only conveys the words not how they looked. Imo the look in Young’s face was hysteria and the looks in all the other’s faces were confirmation.

The meaning I got from his exchange was this: he tactlessly told Young look: ‘you waited and one man is dead it could just as easily have been Chloe or Eli or Lieutenant Johansen who you are likely to care even more about. You really have screwed up.’ I think Rush would have influenced Young far better if his message hadn’t been phrased as it was but Rush was angry that one person had died and the situation had needlessly escalated because of Young poor judgment. As the entire episode clearly showed Rush was right. Young refused to take direct confrontative action against the LA and the situation deteriorated until more died and he lost the ship.


again, he's a yeller. He's always been a yeller and he's always yelled at them to fix it. This isn't much different than any other time. I didn't see hysteria there but YMMV
I hate to say it but that didn't happen as the transcript piece above shows. You may be conflating it with a snippet from a previous episode? In any case, it didn't happen here.

Again Young’s yelling in a command crisis situation only started in Incursion 1 and worsened in Incursion 2.


Rush rubbed his nose in the death of one of Young's men. That's not being paralyzed with fear, as Young has had no problem making plans on the ground after the initial failure to vent the gate room.

My description may be colorful but it explains why Young got so angry at Rush. Again, Rush could have phrased his point in a less inflammatory manner but it still was true and Young probably knew it.


he turned over food and water (that was agreed to by Wray, who was negotiating) in order to get people back. Should he have refused and let people be killed? What good is keeping food and water if all your people are dead? With the pulsar, they needed Kiva to agree, or all of them would die. I don't get how that's stupid. He continues to have Kiva agree to things and continues to maneuver Kiva into a position that he can work with. It goes without saying that the food and water are probably also deeply appreciated by the hostages on the other side who are also doing without, or would it be okay to starve them all?

I think he's well aware of that but he still has to try to work with her to get his people back

No he doesn’t. Kiva has clearly shown that she can’t be trusted and will likely kill everyone who is a threat to her as soon as she can. Unfortunately the only way to handle the crisis is still to attack them directly and evacuation is the only effective tool they have. He should have evacuated the air and immediately gone in and shot any LA invaders still conscious. They then could have immediately tried to resuscitate the hostages. Lives may have been lost but it was the only way to end the threat and cut their losses. We keep coming back to the fact that there was only one way to end the attack and that was to evacuate the gate room and risk the lives of any of his people in there. Young didn’t have the resolve to issue the order because he was too afraid to risk their lives. The first time it would have only been Telford’s life on the line; the second time there was about a dozen. Kiva knew Young didn’t have the stomach to do what was necessary so she kept upping the ante until she forced him to surrender the ship.

Posters with military backgrounds like The Mighty Six platoon and others plus General O’Neill himself have all indicated that Young really screwed up.

Because this is a TV show and things usually always workout for the better doesn’t change the fact that Young screwed up and lost the ship. It just means in this fantasy world Young probably won’t have to suffer the consequences that realistically would have occurred.

Blackhole
June 13th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Reply to Post #3 Part 2


Young and Telford's plan was to have all the hostages coralled into a certain room and have all connecting areas vented. Just because that plan hasn't been completed in this episode doesn't mean that it won't happen.

we won't know that until the next season. The part of the plan that has happened is that, rather than having the LA and hostages all in the gate room and intermingled, the hostages are separate, and locked in a room. There's no way to know if they are guarded from the inside but iot wouldn't make sense for the LA to be there with that many people to control. So, hostages in a locked room and the LA outside. It looks like their plan is going okay to me or at least going the way they wanted it to go.

Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution but the inescapable fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when they first boarded the ship.


Shock and anger at people dying is pretty normal. It doesn't equal hysteria.

The thing is, I think you are Young bashing.
Is Young right for this command? No. Even Young the character would agree to that. Is Young damaged and likely suffering from PTSD? You bet. But I think that when you take it as far as you have, even to the point of conflating events or seeing things that simply didn't happen, just to bag on a character? yeah, I think that's bashing.

I am not Young bashing. I am just pointing out that his judgment when viewed by realistic and reasonable military standards was extremely poor and I offered PTSD as explanation. If you don’t think Young has demonstrated very bad judgment then why was the scene put in Incursion 1 where General O’Neill is seen criticizing his judgment and threatening to replace him in command? Or why was the scene included where Sam is forced to leave before recovering two of her 302 pilots? Why would the writers place both scenes in if not to cast doubt on his judgment and demonstrate that a commander has to be willing to sacrifice his men when the circumstances demand it? His anger problems were bad in Insurrection 1 and at their worse in Incursion 2. In 2 he reacted very angrily and irrationally and without provocation. In my mind his unprovoked yelling and attempt to attack Rush in a crisis situation paired with his catastrophically poor decisions demonstrate significant psychological deterioration over the last two episodes. And the fact remains that if Young had immediately evacuated the gate room the entire crisis would have been averted. In my mind a mistake of that magnitude is evidence that he is no longer fit for command.

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 07:45 PM
the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.

not! if so then Rush should have been able to drop the shield and let Scott and Greer back in

brian_177
June 13th, 2010, 07:48 PM
When Kiva and Telford shot each other the transfer was halted partway through. It wasn't a simple matter of Telford hitting the "Send" button and Rush heading to Destiny's inbox.

I imagine that in the Season 2 premier we'll find ourselves in a very similar situation as the same kind of transfer was halted midway through in 'Divided'; the Lucian Alliance and the SGC folks will each find themselves in control of certain systems, and not have access to others.

bobshort
June 13th, 2010, 07:55 PM
I Think. Young should have had 8 guy in the gateroom waiting for the LA and just killed them as they come through the gate and if it failed just fall to secondly base. if they did that they would have cut the LA in half and maybe saved telford. Without any hosts then vent the gateroom. young had now backup plan thats why he fail. (A-team quote always think 5 steps ahead.)

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 07:58 PM
Didn't Rush say he couldn't complete the transfer?you are correct, it's incomplete...for now, but the LA doesn't have control either and with Rush, Brody and Eli, I'd say that the "we" side is more likely to come out ahead.


This is one of those horrible, crazy, impossible-to-foresee situations that every military commander probably dreads happening, prepares for as best as one can, and then is forced to play by ear when it occurs. Why? Because things never ever happen as predicted or expected or willed when people are added to the mix.

Sure, tactically the best option may have seemed to be to vent the entire gate room to space the moment the LA started coming through the wormhole, but not only would that have been a far colder option than I think Young is actually capable of, it's also incredibly short-sighted. Young had no reason to think that he didn't have at least a short amount of time to get more information out of the LA; he had no way to know they had those door-opening devices and so probably figured to use some time to assess the situation further which could have worked to their advantage if the LA happened to be planning a second wave of some sort or if there happened to be more to their plan. Killing them outright may have taken care of those particular infiltrators, but it would have done nothing in the bigger picture if the LA had planned something else as well.

Regardless, venting atmosphere was a moot point because it would have taken far more time than it took the LA to open the doors with their devices, so they would have had those doors open anyway. The end result would have been the same.

Then there were hostages and while it's kind of easy to sit back and assess the situation now, deeming this more wrong and that move better or worse than any other, working in the moment is probably impossible to fathom.

Should Young have killed everyone including the hostages by venting the atmosphere? What would that have accomplished other than ridding the Destiny of the LA (for a short time perhaps)? Who would have followed his command after that? Would it have been worth losing their only medic, a handful of soldiers and scientists? How much longer would they have survived with Wray in charge of a mission demanding military leadership, with Rush off handling his own agenda, and Young probably doubting/hating himself to the point of being useless to everyone aboard the Destiny?

Crappy situation all around, but of all the not-so-great choices for leadership, Young was probably the best. And honestly, considering the strength of the LA and all the time they've had to plan this incursion vs. how much time Destiny has had to plan its defense, I don't think it would have ended up any other way.
I agree with all of this. It's very easy to sit back and say he should have done this that or the next thing but this was a bit of a nightmare scenario. This could be argued to death but it's going to break down along certain lines for some people. Is Young perfect? No. Was allowing for negotiations with the LA likely a mistake? Sure. But the man had only the facts he had to work with and we have the benefit of having been able to see the whole picture. I suppose I;m one of the people that says a plan hasn't failed until it's failed all the way, and we haven't seen that yet.

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 08:00 PM
yep! I like Louis' flawed character. PTSD would explain alot. I imagine most of the characters mistakes and problems could be expained when you look at everything from a mental health standpoint. TJ had a chat with everyone to see how they were doing. How would you be if put in the same? Nutz?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 08:01 PM
yep! I like Louis' flawed character. PTSD would explain alot. I imagine most of the characters mistakes and problems could be expained when you look at everything from a mental health standpoint. TJ had a chat with everyone to see how they were doing. How would you be if put in the same? Nutz?

I think most of us would be a little bonkers and a lot of them had problems to begin with :)

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Whats the altenative? Wray? Telford? Rush? Scott?

I think we all know Young has his problems but then again so does everyone else on this ship. Minus BAG of course.

ok! im lost here who is BAG?

Vanek26
June 13th, 2010, 08:16 PM
Much rather have Young than Scott (No backbone) or Wray(Annoying).

BAG is Bald Asian Guy.

He was in the Faith episode.

lordofseas
June 13th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Wall of text, which I refuse to read on principle. I think his current psychological state is far more human than his previous psychological state, which was more primal.

Blackhole
June 13th, 2010, 08:30 PM
This is one of those horrible, crazy, impossible-to-foresee situations that every military commander probably dreads happening, prepares for as best as one can, and then is forced to play by ear when it occurs. Why? Because things never ever happen as predicted or expected or willed when people are added to the mix.

Sure, tactically the best option may have seemed to be to vent the entire gate room to space the moment the LA started coming through the wormhole, but not only would that have been a far colder option than I think Young is actually capable of, it's also incredibly short-sighted. Young had no reason to think that he didn't have at least a short amount of time to get more information out of the LA; he had no way to know they had those door-opening devices and so probably figured to use some time to assess the situation further which could have worked to their advantage if the LA happened to be planning a second wave of some sort or if there happened to be more to their plan. Killing them outright may have taken care of those particular infiltrators, but it would have done nothing in the bigger picture if the LA had planned something else as well.

I don't think so. I agree the door opening devices couldn't have been expected but explosives would have been. We have seen Scott open a door with explosives just about as fast as LA did with their door opening devices. Young had to know once the LA invaders arrived they would probably place explosives on the doors very quickly.


Regardless, venting atmosphere was a moot point because it would have taken far more time than it took the LA to open the doors with their devices, so they would have had those doors open anyway. The end result would have been the same.

Then there were hostages and while it's kind of easy to sit back and assess the situation now, deeming this more wrong and that move better or worse than any other, working in the moment is probably impossible to fathom.

Should Young have killed everyone including the hostages by venting the atmosphere? What would that have accomplished other than ridding the Destiny of the LA (for a short time perhaps)? Who would have followed his command after that? Would it have been worth losing their only medic, a handful of soldiers and scientists? How much longer would they have survived with Wray in charge of a mission demanding military leadership, with Rush off handling his own agenda, and Young probably doubting/hating himself to the point of being useless to everyone aboard the Destiny?

Crappy situation all around, but of all the not-so-great choices for leadership, Young was probably the best. And honestly, considering the strength of the LA and all the time they've had to plan this incursion vs. how much time Destiny has had to plan its defense, I don't think it would have ended up any other way.

I don't think so. Volker and Brody said it would take less than a minute to vent the room to vacuum. A person would pass out well before vacuum was reached. If Young had evacuated the room right after the first group of invaders were thrown through they would have been incapacitated before any action could have been taken. All the others arriving in a vacuum would have passed out in seconds. The attack would have been thwarted.

That was why General O’Neill was shown criticizing Young’s decision and threatening to replace him in command. His choice to delay was a critical and clear error in judgment and as was seen lost the ship and placed everyone’s’ lives in imminent mortal peril.

Major_Griff
June 13th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Wall of text, which I refuse to read on principle.

Lolz, green.

Makenshi
June 13th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Sorry for not reading anything beyond half the 1st page, but here are my thoughts:

He should never vent the room to kill the LA as they arrived, it would be a war crime. But he should not stop venting it just to save a man (two, in the present case). His duty was to vent the damn room to the point everyone inside starded losing balance and bled by the nose; at that moment, no one would be dead, but also in no condition to react.

The SGC military personel would then be able to easily go in (life support restored to the room, of course), disarm the LA invaders and place them under arrest withot a single shot or death. The only reason for all the bull**** that happened was because TPTB needed a conflict and a cliffhanger AND couldn't think of a better way to deliver it.

It would have been much better if the LA personel somehow foresaw/antecipated the venting of the gate room, crossed the gate already wearing breathing aparatus and quickly used the Ancient Lockpicks while Yong yelled "The plan won't wo-ork!!! To your posi-i-tions!!!", and then the episode proceeded as it was made.

See, even I could write this scene better...

SGboy
June 13th, 2010, 09:06 PM
seriously, i must agree with you on some level. the fact that TJ is pregnant is obviously something that needs to be accounted for, there is no doubt he is emotionally compromised. (losing command (the destruction of icarus) playing favorites, and getting a serviceman pregnant)

kcatlantis
June 13th, 2010, 10:21 PM
I hope Telford can make it ok, not dead. I then hope he gets put in charge of Destiny. The new Telford is way better then Young. So Telford can be in charge of everything, while Young has the military, and Rush has the scientist not named Eli.

TENTHIUS
June 13th, 2010, 10:21 PM
Young is the reason why they are still saying: "Wrong people on a wrong place" :)

NormaN
June 13th, 2010, 10:35 PM
Much rather have Young than Scott (No backbone) or Wray(Annoying).

BAG is Balding Asian Guy.

He was in the Faith episode.

Fixed it for you.

Shai Hulud
June 13th, 2010, 10:37 PM
He was in the Faith episode.

Im fairly sure ive spotted him as an extra in Atlantis too!

PG15
June 13th, 2010, 11:26 PM
I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly stupid. Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have known she is not to be trusted or reasoned with. He should have evacuated the room to near vacuum to incapacitate them and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses before the situation escalated but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone.


The moment the LA realizes that the air is being vented they will not hesitate to kill the hostages themselves. After all, what's stopping them? It'll look to them like Young is ready to go through with ending this once and for all.

That said, I absolutely LOVED seeing Young lose it in this episode. I agree with you that he was livid and hysterical when he returned to confront the scientists about the power outage - it was the kind of emoting I would expect (and hope to see) from someone who just lost somebody under his command and who isn't the perfect robot soldiers that the military expects them to be. Comparing his reaction to past Stargate commanders just exemplifies the whole "these characters are flawed" theme of the show.

IMHO everything Young has ever done on the ship, besides the Stranding-Rush debacle, has been based on his mindset that everyone under his command and protection must be saved. This includes his not wanting to immediately vent the gateroom, this includes the multiple times he tried to sacrifice himself in place of someone "less important", this includes the events of "Water" when he wouldn't let Scott go, this includes the overprotectiveness of TJ, etc. etc. I am just loving how consistent he is. It might not be that rational, and it might not be what a proper military commander should do, but it makes him so very Human and I love him for it.

I don't want Young replaced. I want him to step down by his own accord. That would be character development. Ever since that outburst I've been thinking of a scenerio where he finally reflects over everything that he's done over the first season (and whatever happens at the beginning of season 2), and reiterates to himself what he and TJ talked about in "Space" - that he let all those people who died under his command down. I want him to realize for himself that he has made mistakes, and that perhaps he is not fit to command - at least, not for the time being. I want him to beat himself up emotionally/psychologically, maybe making his actions seem even worse than how they really are. I think it's fascinating to see someone (fictional) basically spiral into depression because they think they deserve that emotional punishment when they actually don't, or at least not to that extent.

It'd be cool, I think, for him to have this revelation when he's staring at Rivers's bloodstains on the gateroom floor. That is one piece of set dec that needs to remain. Blood has been shed there, and it ain't easy to clean off, if you know what I mean.

I also think it'd be cool if, when he reveals to Scott, Greer, Telford, etc. that he's stepping down, they'll give reasons why he shouldn't. Clearly there are reasons since there are plenty here who defend Young on a regular basis (me included).

As for who should replace him - I vote for Telford. I thought he was great in Incursion I and II. As someone had said, he has great presence, and he certainly handled himself just fine while pretending to still be loyal to Kiva. Sure, his plan eventually backfired, but desperate times and all that. Besides, it'd be interesting to see a scene where Young gives command over to Telford, since those two seemed to have been friends before the brainwashing; it'd be a good chance for bromance banter.

I...really want to write for this show. There is so much emotional baggage to claim.

Blackhole
June 13th, 2010, 11:43 PM
The moment the LA realizes that the air is being vented they will not hesitate to kill the hostages themselves. After all, what's stopping them? It'll look to them like Young is ready to go through with ending this once and for all.

That said, I absolutely LOVED seeing Young lose it in this episode. I agree with you that he was livid and hysterical when he returned to confront the scientists about the power outage - it was the kind of emoting I would expect (and hope to see) from someone who just lost somebody under his command and who isn't the perfect robot soldiers that the military expects them to be. Comparing his reaction to past Stargate commanders just exemplifies the whole "these characters are flawed" theme of the show.

IMHO everything Young has ever done on the ship, besides the Stranding-Rush debacle, has been based on his mindset that everyone under his command and protection must be saved. This includes his not wanting to immediately vent the gateroom, this includes the multiple times he tried to sacrifice himself in place of someone "less important", this includes the events of "Water" when he wouldn't let Scott go, this includes the overprotectiveness of TJ, etc. etc. I am just loving how consistent he is. It might not be that rational, and it might not be what a proper military commander should do, but it makes him so very Human and I love him for it.

I don't want Young replaced. I want him to step down by his own accord. That would be character development. Ever since that outburst I've been thinking of a scenerio where he finally reflects over everything that he's done over the first season (and whatever happens at the beginning of season 2), and reiterates to himself what he and TJ talked about in "Space" - that he let all those people who died under his command down. I want him to realize for himself that he has made mistakes, and that perhaps he is not fit to command - at least, not for the time being. I want him to beat himself up emotionally/psychologically, maybe making his actions seem even worse than how they really are. I think it's fascinating to see someone (fictional) basically spiral into depression because they think they deserve that emotional punishment when they actually don't, or at least not to that extent.

It'd be cool, I think, for him to have this revelation when he's staring at Rivers's bloodstains on the gateroom floor. That is one piece of set dec that needs to remain. Blood has been shed there, and it ain't easy to clean off, if you know what I mean.

I also think it'd be cool if, when he reveals to Scott, Greer, Telford, etc. that he's stepping down, they'll give reasons why he shouldn't. Clearly there are reasons since there are plenty here who defend Young on a regular basis (me included).

As for who should replace him - I vote for Telford. I thought he was great in Incursion I and II. As someone had said, he has great presence, and he certainly handled himself just fine while pretending to still be loyal to Kiva. Sure, his plan eventually backfired, but desperate times and all that. Besides, it'd be interesting to see a scene where Young gives command over to Telford, since those two seemed to have been friends before the brainwashing; it'd be a good chance for bromance banter.

I...really want to write for this show. There is so much emotional baggage to claim.

An excellent post; very thoughtful and well written.

I agree with everything you have said.

You are right they probably would have tried to kill the hostages. I had considered that. The only thing Young could have done was to initiate a major diversion immediately before he vents the room. That may have given the hostages a chance to scramble out of the way. Unfortunately lives would probably be lost but delaying further would only put more at risk which is exactly what happened.

Nataku27
June 13th, 2010, 11:49 PM
ok! im lost here who is BAG?

Who is BAG ?

One of the deepest mystery of SGU of course ;)

The Swarm
June 13th, 2010, 11:51 PM
I think Varro should take command of the people on Destiny, he wants peace between the two sides, is level headed, has military experience and he likes T.J. :D

Kelara
June 14th, 2010, 12:39 AM
IMHO everything Young has ever done on the ship, besides the Stranding-Rush debacle, has been based on his mindset that everyone under his command and protection must be saved. This includes his not wanting to immediately vent the gateroom, this includes the multiple times he tried to sacrifice himself in place of someone "less important", this includes the events of "Water" when he wouldn't let Scott go, this includes the overprotectiveness of TJ, etc. etc. I am just loving how consistent he is. It might not be that rational, and it might not be what a proper military commander should do, but it makes him so very Human and I love him for it.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post (Young should step down, of his own accord -because otherwise he will never acknowledge the monumental mistakes he made and thus end up bitter, angry and in denial- preferrably to Telford), the above part I just as wholeheartedly disagree with :).
In my opinion, Young is mainly looking out for himself and playing favourites entirely too much to convincingly care about "everyone under his command". The saving of Scott in water? Young seemed to have him adopted and wanted Scott saved for his own sanity. If it was someone Young didn't have a psychological connection to, he would have waved goodbye to them (maybe not happily, but he'd not have gone to the point of self- sacrifice). Same for TJ, she's his past love interest and carrying his freaking baby. If he wouldn't go to bat for her and his kid now that would demonstrate even more clearly a psychological disorder, wouldn't it?
Similar thing with the wife on earth. He needed her to wait for him (indefinitely, if need be). Did he care any what that would actually mean for her? If he did, it was not shown on screen (yet). Or let's take a look at the last scenes on the faith planet. People Young cares about: Scott, TJ, Greer (maybe Chloe, but at that point she pretty much went where Scott went anyway). Scott wants to stay down out of a feeling of obligation and TJ wants to stay for the child. Both couldn't care less about insubordination charges as they will probably never see anyone from earth ever again if they stay, so he can't just order them back on destiny. So how does he keep his most favourite people? Guilt tripping them with the shuttle (greater chance of survival of the rest Young didn't give a damn about with the shuttle, but only if all military leaves... which, well, didn't exactly contribute to their survival chances all that much... but well, no one chose to point that out in depth).
I think that is the interpretation of Young Rush even commented on that in the last episode (with the "what if it wasn't Rivers but Eli or Chloe or TJ" jibe). So Young might fancy being seen as the benevolent "I will everything for everyone under my command" commander, but in truth his actions can be interpreted in hugely different ways, if one wants to.

So in summary: Young = very ambiguous character, but agree that he shouldn't be in command (which obviously hinges on Telford staying alive. I personally can't imagine Young stepping down to his quasi- son Scott or to grief stricken TJ any time soon.)

Shai Hulud
June 14th, 2010, 02:10 AM
getting a serviceman pregnant

^That would be quite the achievement, fair play to Young, he must be shooting some uberstrong stuff if he can get serviceMEN preggers! :D

JustAnotherVoice
June 14th, 2010, 02:26 AM
I wanted to give Young the benefit of the doubt but based on his performance and behavior in this last episode I think he has emotionally and psychologically crumbled. His intentions were good but he no longer possesses the psychological stability to continue in command and needs to be replaced. It was his inaction from fear to do anything to risk the hostages’ lives that was responsible for LA taking control of the ship and putting everyone’s lives in imminent mortal peril.

It was a combination of things that led to the LA gaining a foothold. Plan (A) went with those nifty spinny keys. Plan (B) went with the radiation burst interrupting the medical supply exchange. Plan (C) went with Kiva discovering Telford.


It has been argued by some that it was a mistake to not to immediately evacuate the air from the gate room. Tactically I agree but I can understand his decision to delay to first see if he could negotiate their surrender and save Telford who was likely his good friend before he was brainwashed. He didn’t expect they would have the door opening devices that would very quickly allow them to exit (Although, they could have just as easily used explosives to free themselves). Once Eli told him they had devices to open the door he gave the order to evacuate the air but it was too late.

Meh, other's opinions, not yours, so it seems.


From this point Young completely lost his control once Kiva had taken hostages. Remember his emotional outburst to Park and the others and when he tried to attack Rush when he accurately criticized his tactics. Young stormed into the command center and started yelling at everyone to fix the problem. When they attempted to explain that they didn’t know what was wrong he yelled louder “Don’t analyze just fix it!”. I think for a moment he was completely out of control and hysterical. The expressions on all their faces confirmed they had similar thoughts as well. Rush was being Rush and tactlessly pointed out that Young’s fear to act and endanger anyone’s life was what was responsible for getting him killed. He knew that Young was paralyzed by his fear of doing anything that would risk the hostages’ lives and by default was allowing Kiva free reign. Rush spent a lot of time with her he knew how ruthless she was and that the death toll was just going to rise the longer he delayed taking action against her. Rush rubbed Young’s nose in that reality and Young lost it and tried to attack him. Circumstances unfortunately proved him absolutely correct.

It came across more as "no excuses, just get it done" without his command poker face.

Young may like chess, but he isn't much of a poker player, and I'd wager that anyone would get a bit angry when things are going south for no apparent reason with such high stakes involved. Young is already a tightly wound guy, especially after the previous 2 or 3 episodes; no doubt the sh!t hitting the fan isn't good for his temperment.


I can see him hesitating to delay the air evacuation to try to save his friend Telford but to turn over food and water and then computer control to Kiva was incredibly stupid. Once Kiva shot that hostage he should have known she is not to be trusted or reasoned with. He should have evacuated the room to near vacuum to incapacitate them and then sent in an armed team to dispatch any LA still consciousness; immediately followed by civilians to attempt resuscitation (if possible) of all the hostages. Rush was right, Young needed to act and cut his losses before the situation escalated but he didn’t and was completely paralyzed by his fear of hurting anyone.

Think about that bolded bit for a minute. If she was willing to send Young a message for a deal not going to her exact plan, what do you think she would have done in the 60 seconds it would take to vent the atmosphere? Sure, all of his people are dead, but at least his ship is safe...which goes against everything we've seen of Young.

Trying to incapacitate them may end up angering the LA (or killing hostages outright), and, as we've seen from Young, he doesn't want anymore blood than neccessary on his hands. Once the O2 started to thin, Kiva would have executed every hostage. On top of that, how long is long enough to make sure everyone is weak/incapacitated enough but still alive?


Relying on Telford's plan imo was asinine as evidenced by what happened. It was far too risky and too many things could have gone wrong.

Telford's plan was risky, but there were just as many variable in trying to suffocate the LA members. Young is gambling high risk vs high reward (Telford's plan) or high risk vs low reward (pulling the atmosphere). He made his decision and is rolling the dice, letting fate decide and history judge - military commanders have done that, for better or worse, since the dawn of warfare. Any time the Iron Lady sent in the SAS, WWI/II (until Germany got America's ire), the American Civil War, the American Revolution, Hannible crossing the Alps, Julius Caesar crossing the Rhine, Marathon, Thermopylae. The list is as long as my arm.


Go back and rewatch the scene in the command center after Kiva kills the solider before you disagree with me. You can see in Young’s face that he looked hysterical for a moment and from the expressions on the faces of Park, Volker, Brody, and Rush they all realized it as well. I am not Young bashing. Imo the show is not just portraying a character that has made mistakes in judgment but as one that is psychologically crumbling. O’Neill’s direct criticism of his judgment is more evidence. It was Young’s inability to act from a fear to risk the hostages’ lives that resulted in LA taking over the ship and placing everyone’s life in mortal peril.

The Mighty 6 platoon’s assessment that he has PTSD may be accurate and intended by the writers. I would be extremely surprised if his mental state doesn’t continue to deteriorate over future episodes and is the focus a major plot line.

We've seen, time and again, that this is part of Young's personality make up. PTSD wouldn't shock me one bit, especially if he's lost a lot of men in combat. Having a guilty conscience can make a person do all sorts of crazy things, everything from crying himself to sleep at nights to being short with people who callously treat whatever triggered the guilt (in Young's case, needlessly wasting lives, it seems). If momentarily losing control under that kind of pressure is "hysterical" then I wouldn't want to know what you call more serious outbursts.


Who will replace him is the problem. All the other officers are junior and not ready for command. TJ’s comment of disapproval to Young when he told her about his plan to evacuate the gate room shows me she probably isn’t suited either. If Telford survives it is a possibility but even though he was brainwashed having him assume command doesn’t sit well with me. Wray certainly isn’t qualified. It will be interesting to see what happens. Who knows if LA will take over the ship and for how long? Maybe Young will redeem himself and retake the ship? Will have to wait and see.

It's easy to judge from the sidelines, where you can be objective. You "rip apart" the de facto commander then p!ss over everyone else's ability to step up.

Biased Young bashing is biased.

Phenom
June 14th, 2010, 05:01 AM
Interesting opinion about Young having PTSD. I am not sure if he has that, or if he just really hasn't got the ability to keep it together when things go pearshaped. It really isn't a question that can be answered as that sort of diagnosis takes a long time and many hours on the couch, but it certainly isn't out of the question.

The biggest indicator to me that Young has lost control of himself was when he yelled at the scientists. It reminded me of when I get so frustrated with the kids that I yelll too much and then immediately after I think, 'yep i went too far' and apologise or something similar. I think Young had that moment of self-reflection immediately afterwards, but he hesitated and didn't say anything to the group which could have saved his standing amongst them. As it is, their respect for him no doubt dropped after they saw him fail to reign in and recognise his emotional meltdown.

janus4ever
June 14th, 2010, 06:32 AM
He is too incapable to be SGC leader. O'Neill is not happy with him as well. Young is the looser of Season 1, imho.

Shai Hulud
June 14th, 2010, 06:50 AM
At the end of S1 Young's lost pretty much everything; his ship, his baby, his bit on the side, his temper, his limp... He'll be tempered by adversity and emerge from it a far stronger, better person.

Blackhole
June 14th, 2010, 07:19 AM
It was a combination of things that led to the LA gaining a foothold. Plan (A) went with those nifty spinny keys. Plan (B) went with the radiation burst interrupting the medical supply exchange. Plan (C) went with Kiva discovering Telford.


All started by Young delaying to immediately evacuate the gate room.


Meh, other's opinions, not yours, so it seems.

So...I am not allowed to learn from others? You are saying I can only post arguments I personally thought of?


It came across more as "no excuses, just get it done" without his command poker face.

How can they fix something if they don't understand what the problem was? So Young has a right to be upset because Park, Volker, Brody and Rush are not all knowing?


Young may like chess, but he isn't much of a poker player, and I'd wager that anyone would get a bit angry when things are going south for no apparent reason with such high stakes involved. Young is already a tightly wound guy, especially after the previous 2 or 3 episodes; no doubt the sh!t hitting the fan isn't good for his temperment.

A competent commander is suppose to keep cool during a crisis situation and not fly off the handle.


Think about that bolded bit for a minute. If she was willing to send Young a message for a deal not going to her exact plan, what do you think she would have done in the 60 seconds it would take to vent the atmosphere? Sure, all of his people are dead, but at least his ship is safe...which goes against everything we've seen of Young.

Trying to incapacitate them may end up angering the LA (or killing hostages outright), and, as we've seen from Young, he doesn't want anymore blood than neccessary on his hands. Once the O2 started to thin, Kiva would have executed every hostage. On top of that, how long is long enough to make sure everyone is weak/incapacitated enough but still alive?

Yes venting the atmosphere may have resulted in LA killing all the hostages. Young needed to cut his losses and end the threat. He didn't and now instead of 10 hostages at risk the entire crew is and he has lost the ship.


Telford's plan was risky, but there were just as many variable in trying to suffocate the LA members. Young is gambling high risk vs high reward (Telford's plan) or high risk vs low reward (pulling the atmosphere). He made his decision and is rolling the dice, letting fate decide and history judge - military commanders have done that, for better or worse, since the dawn of warfare. Any time the Iron Lady sent in the SAS, WWI/II (until Germany got America's ire), the American Civil War, the American Revolution, Hannible crossing the Alps, Julius Caesar crossing the Rhine, Marathon, Thermopylae. The list is as long as my arm.

No there wasn't and doing what Young did lost the ship and put everyone's' life in imminent mortal peril.


We've seen, time and again, that this is part of Young's personality make up. PTSD wouldn't shock me one bit, especially if he's lost a lot of men in combat. Having a guilty conscience can make a person do all sorts of crazy things, everything from crying himself to sleep at nights to being short with people who callously treat whatever triggered the guilt (in Young's case, needlessly wasting lives, it seems). If momentarily losing control under that kind of pressure is "hysterical" then I wouldn't want to know what you call more serious outbursts.

Much more hysterical. Keeping cool are what good commanders are suppose to do.


It's easy to judge from the sidelines, where you can be objective. You "rip apart" the de facto commander then p!ss over everyone else's ability to step up.

Biased Young bashing is biased.

No I pointed out a catastrophic tactical mistake that would have thwarted LA's attack and saved the ship and only put Telford's life at risk; a life that may have been able to be saved if he was resuscitated in time. A mistake that General O'Neill thought serious enough to threaten to remove him from command for.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 14th, 2010, 07:35 AM
....

You know, Dr "I'm the whole reason everyone is marooned on this miserable rust bucket" Rush really can't be seen as having much logic either. Also nice to see how you define people with deep seated psychological trauma and scarring. Perhaps you should tell your own servicemen and veterans of your country how they are wackjobs. I'm sure they'd appreciate that.

In recent episodes it has become clear that Young is suffering from PTSD. It's almost a textbook case. Traumatic events in his past which he can remember in vivid detail. Anger problems, anger and denial at certain topics which may led to a repeat of such events. Worse you can't cure PTSD, it's something you carry with you for the rest of your life. But it is treatable, and people with it are perfectly capable of functioning with it, you'll see them every day in the street and not even no. In the end even those with severe PTSD, are perfectly capable of carrying on their jobs. Everyone carries round past baggage.

However thanks to comments like yours, veterans who go through psychological trauma are often seen as wackjobs or nutters. I know Young is a fictional character, but your attitude is the same, PTSD has been turned into a mark of Cain, you get it and some see you as a broken and dangerous individual.

In the end Young has had his command ability impaired by psychological trauma. Is he capable of recovering in order to take charge of the Destiny. I don't know, but it's possible. The one thing Young isn't is a wackjob.Thank you. I could write a big long bit but I think thank you will have to work for now :)


The attitude is the same. Calling Chloe a slut on this board is disallowed, its seen as character bashing. I think calling a character with psychological trauma and damage from PTSD a wackjob is also character bashing.amen
There are lots of things that could be said about Young's character but I think slinging that kind of crap around definitely is character bashing and it gets really damned tiresome

carmencatalina
June 14th, 2010, 12:41 PM
<snip>

Anyhow, I'm thinking Young is definitely close to cracking again (I say again, because I think he lost it on the planet with the alien ship where he left Rush - and I think he thinks he lost it there, too).

When he yelled at the scientists - that was a sign of impending Young-break-down. He managed to reel it in, though, which is good. I think Park saying "Don't yell!" to him was awesome - and maybe more of the crew need to say stuff like that to him. Dude, they want to live as much as you do - let them do their stuff!

This is why I LOVE Young - he is falling apart, and then he pulls himself together, and then he starts falling apart again. I spend more time yelling at Young than any other character (in my mind, of course, I don't actually yell at the television, well, not much). He has so much potential! He fails so mightily! He knocks up his officers! He is brave! He has serious anger management issues! What's not to love?

AVFan
June 14th, 2010, 12:57 PM
Personally, I think that Young is just as fit for command as anyone on the ship at this point.

The next best obvious candidate would be Rush and he wouldn't care enough for the safety of the people aboard the ship. As we've seen in SG-1 and SGA, sometimes the emotional decision is the one that pays off. Logic will cut your losses, but won't save everyone. Young has shown that he cares about everyone under his command- civilian and military both.

Next would be Wray, and she's so ignorant it's not funny. Not to mention she's an IOA Scumbagâ„¢ as well as friggen annoying. She likes to negotiate with everything, and with cold-blooded criminals, it's not going to happen. Reminds me a little of Lost City Weir wanting to negotiate with Anubis. Even Daniel, who doesn't like violence, knows that it's idiocy. Same situation with the Lucian Alliance. So no Wray, please. (While we're at it, can someone please airlock her? Kthxbai)

Then you have a bunch of wildcard candidates:

Telford- seems to have his head on straight now that the brainwashing is gone. Only problem is that he's probably dead.

Varro- seems to want both sides to work together. Whether this is true remains to be seen.

Scott- next in command if Telford is out of the picture. He's pretty weak mentally though and would make even more emotional decisions than Young, IMO.

BAG- There's no doubt he would be the best commander any Earth or MW personnel have ever seen. But would they be able to stand his sheer note-taking awesomeness without passing out? Who really knows.

That said, Young surely hasn't been the best commander possible, there's no doubt about that. He can sometimes be a Nutbar© (congrats whoever made up that word, it stuck ;) ) as evidenced by going off on the scientists after the radiation hit the ship; however, he has shown the best leadership qualities out of anyone on board.

All of his decisions have made at least some sense, and would've worked out had things gone according to plan (no Ancient door-openers, no radiation blast). He has also made some brilliant decisions along with his bad ones (taking Telford to the edge of life, then reviving him; having O'Neill put a tail on Rush in Subversion; as well as some other smaller ones, such as deferring to Wray to negotiate for some of the hostages). IMO, none of the other members of the crew of Destiny could do a better job than he has during their time on the Destiny.

Blackhole
June 14th, 2010, 01:34 PM
Personally, I think that Young is just as fit for command as anyone on the ship at this point.

The next best obvious candidate would be Rush and he wouldn't care enough for the safety of the people aboard the ship. As we've seen in SG-1 and SGA, sometimes the emotional decision is the one that pays off. Logic will cut your losses, but won't save everyone. Young has shown that he cares about everyone under his command- civilian and military both.

Next would be Wray, and she's so ignorant it's not funny. Not to mention she's an IOA Scumbagâ„¢ as well as friggen annoying. She likes to negotiate with everything, and with cold-blooded criminals, it's not going to happen. Reminds me a little of Lost City Weir wanting to negotiate with Anubis. Even Daniel, who doesn't like violence, knows that it's idiocy. Same situation with the Lucian Alliance. So no Wray, please. (While we're at it, can someone please airlock her? Kthxbai)

Then you have a bunch of wildcard candidates:

Telford- seems to have his head on straight now that the brainwashing is gone. Only problem is that he's probably dead.

Varro- seems to want both sides to work together. Whether this is true remains to be seen.

Scott- next in command if Telford is out of the picture. He's pretty weak mentally though and would make even more emotional decisions than Young, IMO.

BAG- There's no doubt he would be the best commander any Earth or MW personnel have ever seen. But would they be able to stand his sheer note-taking awesomeness without passing out? Who really knows.

That said, Young surely hasn't been the best commander possible, there's no doubt about that. He can sometimes be a Nutbar© (congrats whoever made up that word, it stuck ;) ) as evidenced by going off on the scientists after the radiation hit the ship; however, he has shown the best leadership qualities out of anyone on board.

All of his decisions have made at least some sense, and would've worked out had things gone according to plan (no Ancient door-openers, no radiation blast). He has also made some brilliant decisions along with his bad ones (taking Telford to the edge of life, then reviving him; having O'Neill put a tail on Rush in Subversion; as well as some other smaller ones, such as deferring to Wray to negotiate for some of the hostages). IMO, none of the other members of the crew of Destiny could do a better job than he has during their time on the Destiny.

You are very right about the difficulty of finding his replacement. Unfortunately he was in command and he lost the ship. No matter how you slice it imo it is hard to let someone who made such a catastrophic mistake continue in command.

jelgate
June 14th, 2010, 01:48 PM
You are very right about the difficulty of finding his replacement. Unfortunately he was in command and he lost the ship. No matter how you slice it imo it is hard to let someone who made such a catastrophic mistake continue in command.

Hammond and Weir lost control of their bases all the time and yet kept control of them after the ordeal.

Artemis-Neith
June 14th, 2010, 02:00 PM
The problem with Young is that he's done a lot of good command decisions, and a lot of bad decisions, and that from the start. He's IMO much more inconsistent than Rush is, who is surly not the most stable person on board Destiny.

Rush's work for SGC go along at some point with the dead of his wife, something he didn't get over, which leads to the point where he made the fatal decision to dial that 9th chevron, instead of any other planet to evacuate the Icarus personnel. No question that was his fault, a fault nobody on board Destiny will forget. Most of his actions lack emotions, he appears as very callous.

Young is the complete opposite. He's passionate, shows emotions, and let his emotions also channel his decisions. He's in opposition to Rush from the start, and accuses him to do furtive things, like doing all that they don't go back home, messing things up to aggrandise himself, never thinking first about the people, but instead of water supplies and such things. Rush is all, he detests most. The personalisation of a cold machine, who don't care about people. I've got the impression from the beginning, that there must be something in Young’s latest history he never gets over, namely loosing people under his command, at some point close to the beginning of Air, which leads to his irrational behaviour.

We've seen traces of his desperate effort not to loose any more persons under his command, first time was in Air II, self-sacrifice, instead of asking somebody else, to close a door. For a Commander it is not the thing he should do, it is clear, that such a decision can only be made once, so the logic way should have been, looking for the solution which was found later by Senator Armstrong. In Water he try to rescue Scott, and nearly stayed too long, but he and Scott had luck, in the end an earth quake helped them, a lucky coincidence. The way Young handled the chair incident was on the one hand good, Rush should look for a solution for this problem as long as possible, without using one of his people to sit in that damn thing. But at some point it should be clear, use it or forget about it completely, because otherwise it seems not possible to know how it works.

The way Young reacted while finding the gun in his quarters could not have done better, he stepped away, and give his command over to Wray. And that in opposition to Rush, who framed him for murder to have free access to the chair, what a bad idea, and he paid for it, badly, afterwards. Young's good start to handle the situation was unfortunately devalued by his outburst of fury which leads Rush stranded on a planet, without a chance to survive more than a few days. The correct way to handle this, should have been a court hearing for Rush for his crime, not to do a crime to make it a short hearing.

Young's way to handle the mutiny after the military has control over the ship again, was very well done, the try to use boot camp methods to make the civis fit for duty, before, was not. Civil personal are no soldiers and will never be. Give them the opportunity to join the sport activities if they want to, would be much better. Franklin was really sick after that training, not good.

Young's angry reaction about Rush sitting in the chair, to find a better way to get access to Destiny's master-code, was irreproducible IMO, as he'd said before that he's allowed to sit in that chair, but nobody else. So what do Young want? Does he know himself?

The worst mistake did Young in the last two episodes, when he refused to disconnect the stones, to find a way to rescue Telford, while risking Rush's life. He could have saved Rush very easy by disconnecting the stones at any time. He didn't do it, because 1) he wanted more informations from Telford, and 2) I think, it was Young's plan also to get Telford back, when he realised that his former friend must have been brainwashed by the LA. To do this he risks Rush's life (it was his body). He let him die to revive him afterwards. That was extreme risky, Rush's body could have died during that procedure. It worked in the end, but it could have lead to another result. Would he have done this with Scott's body? (I’ve asked this question before, I have no answer, for it)

After realising that the LA brought Telford with them, he should have going on with his plan, but he refused, because he was not able to loose Telford and Rush, for the latter he could again just give the order to disconnect the stones, it would took about 10 secs, and the loss would have been one instead of two persons. After that there was no other option to overrun the LA with less casualties. Young brought himself in a situation which is only very hard to solve, because he's not able to think rational if it is necessary. He needs really a break from his job. As O’Neil has pointed out he should act, or step back from his command. He didn’t. We’ll see in October how the situation will be resolved.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 14th, 2010, 02:54 PM
You are very right about the difficulty of finding his replacement. Unfortunately he was in command and he lost the ship. No matter how you slice it imo it is hard to let someone who made such a catastrophic mistake continue in command.he hasn't lost the ship - yet


....
I'm hoping season 2 starts with him going ax crazy and opening a can of whoopass. On the other hand the writers could decide, and it would also be realistic, to have Young essentially break down and cease to function as a commander, drastically changing the power balance on the ship. Honestly I think it could go either way.

Neither however did so because of a major lapse in judgment and neither lost support or confidence from both those under their command, or those in command of them. Young has, though at this point he still has a chance to put things right and pull his finger out. Time (and season 2 ) will tell.part of the joy in how they've written the characters is that we really don't know how it will go. They're not stereotypical heroes that always Do The Right Thing!!!1eleventy! As for the previous two series and their losses, yes, they happened but due to the style of storytelling, it's doubtful that they would have been written to fail. That's the difference, Young has been written to fail. To fail, to try, to get back up again. In other words, like most of us. Beating up on the character because he's written in such a way as to show us that? Why? What does it say about us that we need these cookie cutter perfect heroes?

GateroomGuard
June 14th, 2010, 03:19 PM
Young was in a complete no win situation. Once the LA boarded and took hostages Young lost. Young had one chance to win and that was venting the gateroom, and even that had a high chance of failure. But once the LA got a foothold and hostages it was all over. Yes Young could have retaken the ship at the cost of all the hostages, it would be cold but it was the only winning solution for him. But Young's personality made losing the only outcome.

Here's why, Young is trying to be a SG team commander like O'Neill was rather than an SGC commander like Hammond. There were plenty of times where O'Neill was in similiar situations with Young, but rather than having an entire ship and crew to save it was usually just SG-1 or a few aliens. O'Neill could try to save his team and what not because he was only risking his life and his teams. When the SGC was compromised Hammond was always ready to blow the place and everyone in it. He was always stopped at the last minute, but the point is Hammond was willing to sacrifice as many as was required for the safety of Earth.

Young is acting like O'Neill when he should be acting like Hammond. Scott can act like O'Neill and pull off insane rescues at the last minute but Young should be ready to sacrifice anyone on Destiny in order to save the crew. Would Hammond have hesiated to blow the base if a bunch of aliens got a foothold? No he would have the countdown for a nuke running the moment they got a foothold.

The moment the LA arrived Young should have vented the gateroom and accepted Telford and Rush as acceptable losses. The moment the LA took hostages and got a foothold he should have started a countdown to vent the gateroom and kill all the LA and the hostages. He could try to save the hostages in that time but once that time runs out kill all of them. With the star putting Destiny in danger and him needing to get Scott and Greer out on the ship he should have vented the entire area so they could get out. Instead Young sent his entire crew to their deaths by LA firing squads on the hope that a bunch of pirates would honor a verbal agrement.

Young should not be commander of the Destiny as long as he cares more about the lives of some of his people over the lives of all of his people. If Young wants to be a good commander he has to be prepared to lose people, if he wants to be a great commander he has to be prepared to lose all of them.

Kermee
June 14th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Whatever is going to happen to our favorite "crazy" boy , we will probably find out in 202 "Aftermath".
Aftermath is the episode where Joesph Mallozzi said in his blog "Aftermath (in which actor Louis Ferreia delivers his best performance yet in a suspenseful, absorbing, emotionally-draining episode.

If Col. Young does step down as commander (I hope he doesn't) it won't cut back on Louis's screen time.
I don't care for Telford taking over Young's job!

KEK
June 14th, 2010, 04:24 PM
He looked a spent force in the finale. I think Telford will/should replace him.

Kelara
June 14th, 2010, 11:49 PM
While I have no doubt that Young would, deep down, prefer people he was more familiar with/formed an emotional bond with to survive, that's true of...well, most humans. Even Hammond of Texas admitted as such in "Heroes Part 2".

Sure. He's just quite blatant about it and it does not inspire morale (which contributed to the civillians trying that takeover, as well as Rush making another point of this in the last s1 ep).


However, your statement "If it was someone Young didn't have a psychological connection to, he would have waved goodbye to them (maybe not happily, but he'd not have gone to the point of self- sacrifice)." has no proof whatsoever, not until he's actually done that (which would be an interesting episode in and of itself). I don't count Faith because, as Rush said, they can't lose that many people at once;

So you don't count faith for a reason, but I do count faith for the reason I stated. As I said, he's an ambiguous character.


Young knew that he couldn't order the civilians around, so he opted to just get the military back because they would be more willing to follow his orders.

But that is the point, he didn't just order them up and they went. He employed different means than his authority as military commander. Basically, he bartered with them and it says a lot that his authority wouldn't be enough to get "his people" to follow him back to Destiny.


And what you call guilt-tripping I can calling them out. With all due respect to TJ, while I do respect her decision, Young is also right in that she's their only medically-inclined person. They need her if they want to survive. Meanwhile, Scott is one of only 3 officers on the ship, and Greer...well, he was going to return to the ship anyway. It was a difficult situation though, to be sure.

Your argument as to why TJ especially is needed is sound. But it also holds true in reverse fashion: The people on the planet are better off with a medic than without. Same as they would be better off with at least one or two military than without any. Yet Young made them completely trade military protection for shelter. I don't know, it just does seem to me he doesn't care about those that choose to stay (which in case of "sudden religious leader guy" I can totally understand ;)).

Again, those actions can be interpreted in different ways, which makes it interesting to see if our wish/prediction/fear that he will step down to Telford will pan out. I'm certainly rooting for Telford taking over, as it would give Young some "less pressure" time to mourn the child alongside TJ. With the way Young is already shown cracking around the edges, I would find it majorly unbelievable if he brushed off the death of the baby like it was nothing, seeing as how protective he acted towards TJ since she told him about it.

NavyGater
June 15th, 2010, 12:10 AM
Without Young I think they would be much worse ... its like marshall law on that ship to some degree and thats what they need. I do think having to run things the way he does is taking a tole on him but Young is getting the job done.

Phenom
June 15th, 2010, 01:14 AM
Oh geez. Is no thread safe from the Young Hate Brigade? A perfectly good thread about a commander crumbling psychologically due to almost a year of continued stress and the loss of his men has now been ruined by snarky one-liners that does nothing besides feeding the twisted need of Haters to continue to bash his character into the ground and to anger those who happen to like the character. Funderful.

Hey, maybe if some of you Rush fans weren't so gung-ho about your Young Hate then maybe Rush will get a little more respect around here - after all, those who like Young and those who like both (i.e. me) usually starts bashing Rush when faced with an argument against you guys where you do nothing but bring Young down again and again. Fight fire with fire, I guess.

Frankly, my love for Rush is starting to diminish purely because of what I'm reading on these forums of what his fans are doing - don't get me wrong, I still like him a lot and Carlyle continues to be a genius, but its tainted now. The same thing happened to Beckett when his fans kept ranting about him and saying that Keller sucked, the same thing happened to Weir when her fans kept ranting about her and saying that Carter sucked, and the same thing happened to SG1/SGA when their fans won't shut up about SGU sucking ass like an ass sucker.

I don't know why I even bother with these threads anymore. After the first page or so they're a waste of time and bad for the blood.

And if a Rush fan responds to this with yet another snarky one-liner...well, I wouldn't be that surprised. Feel free to prove me wrong through.

Let the infraction/moderation/banishment(?) come.



While I have no doubt that Young would, deep down, prefer people he was more familiar with/formed an emotional bond with to survive, that's true of...well, most humans. Even Hammond of Texas admitted as such in "Heroes Part 2".

However, your statement "If it was someone Young didn't have a psychological connection to, he would have waved goodbye to them (maybe not happily, but he'd not have gone to the point of self- sacrifice)." has no proof whatsoever, not until he's actually done that (which would be an interesting episode in and of itself). I don't count Faith because, as Rush said, they can't lose that many people at once; Young knew that he couldn't order the civilians around, so he opted to just get the military back because they would be more willing to follow his orders.

And what you call guilt-tripping I can calling them out. With all due respect to TJ, while I do respect her decision, Young is also right in that she's their only medically-inclined person. They need her if they want to survive. Meanwhile, Scott is one of only 3 officers on the ship, and Greer...well, he was going to return to the ship anyway. It was a difficult situation though, to be sure.

I am waiting for the 'Team Rush' and 'Team Young' shirts Ange and Jen style!!

PG15
June 15th, 2010, 01:23 AM
Right, so it's perfectly fine to vilify Rush and more particularly, his fans but Young is untouchable. That it?

Untouchable? Nyet. This whole thread, and many threads and posts, talks about Young and his various mistaken command decisions, and they are usually related to the topic, and not snarky one-liners that only serve to anger the blood.

I'm just gonna say this: from my perspective, on Gateworld, there is far less spontaneous vilification of Rush than Young, at least in the SGU general forum (it's the only SGU place I hang out at). I don't remember many instances of people coming into a Rush thread and just dropping a steaming load of snark that has nada to do with the topic other than the fact that it mentions Rush, at least not recently.

Feel free to prove me wrong.



Your argument as to why TJ especially is needed is sound. But it also holds true in reverse fashion: The people on the planet are better off with a medic than without. Same as they would be better off with at least one or two military than without any. Yet Young made them completely trade military protection for shelter. I don't know, it just does seem to me he doesn't care about those that choose to stay (which in case of "sudden religious leader guy" I can totally understand ;)).

It may be a numbers game then. There are more people on Destiny than those on the planet, and thus those on the Destiny are deemed more, uh, "worthy" (for lack of a better word) of the one single medical person that they have.

EvilSpaceAlien
June 15th, 2010, 01:50 AM
You know very well how respectful I am of our service people. Equating a fictional character with real service people is just silly and downright rude. I get that you like Young but I don't. I get that you don't like Rush but I do and I don't see your loathing of him as projecting onto all scientists so just pull your head in and stop projecting.

He may be suffering from PTSD but if that's the case then it was well prior to Icarus because he's been a nutbar since the beginning.

Most of the crew has suffered a severe emotional trauma so by your definition they're all nutbars. Including Young, your darling Rush, Chloe, Greer, etc.

MattSilver 3k
June 15th, 2010, 01:56 AM
Most of the crew has suffered a severe emotional trauma so by your definition they're all nutbars. Including Young, your darling Rush, Chloe, Greer, etc.

:cool: to whole thing. Oh ESA, you ESA you.

Artemis-Neith
June 15th, 2010, 02:03 AM
@PG15
Hmm, I think, to excuse those who missed to vilify Rush, recently... He was not the one who did some not so brilliant decisions, lately. But, I do remember the times he did, people don't miss the opportunity for vilification. Go back to those episodes, you'll find those threads easy.

And I don't think, that all those people who like Rush more than they like Young (for whatever reason), are just talking despiteful about Young to bash the character. At least I don't want to do (and a joke from time to time must be allowed, it's not that Young supporters don't do that with Rush, and that's ok), I want to talk about the characters, not bashing them. That must include negative critic, if necessary.

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 02:18 AM
Rush is a machiavellian, emotionaly scarred genius whose thunder has been stolen by a fat geek dropout. Its little wonder he's a bit testy and therefore disliked by some. FWIW I find Rush the most interesting of all the main SGU characters.

Blackhole
June 15th, 2010, 03:23 AM
Hammond and Weir lost control of their bases all the time and yet kept control of them after the ordeal.

True it just seems neither did so because of such a grievous error in judgment on their part. Maybe I am paying closer attention now and am harder on Young?

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 15th, 2010, 03:55 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Young and Rush are very interesting characters because they are both quite fallible and human? Rush, as Shai Hulud pointed out, is quite the Machavellian but also capable of quite deep emotional attachments. He's desperately seeking something, we're not sure what. He's willing to throw people under the bus but doesn't seem to delight in his choices when he does do the throwing.

Young, on the other hand, wants desperately to be on the side of the angels and has a much harder time making hard choices that end up with people dead whether he cares about them or not. He, conversely, recognizes that in his position he must make extremely hard decisions that will end up with people under his jurisdiction dieing. He hates that. He wants things to go smoothly but doesn't really have the personality, in extreme situations, to get people to work at their best. As another person pointed out he yells, without much purpose, when he gets frustrated or angry but I think he recognizes how useless the yelling is despite his inability to control it. He cares quite deeply for the people under his command and laments every death, particularly the trivial ones.

This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.

Skydiver
June 15th, 2010, 03:56 AM
Dial it back people.

The thread is about Young's state of mind at the end of the season.

It is NOT open season to tear him apart. Nor is it open season to start up a 'my character is better than yours' bicker fest.

Try to DISCUSS instead of sniping and snarking.

If you're not willing to discuss things like adults, stay out of the thread.

JustAnotherVoice
June 15th, 2010, 05:31 AM
All started by Young delaying to immediately evacuate the gate room.

He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.

His initial plan was to capture them, possibly for intel.



So...I am not allowed to learn from others? You are saying I can only post arguments I personally thought of?


No, there was nothing there for me to respond to. I could have ignored it or not quote it, but I left it in for completeness' sake.


How can they fix something if they don't understand what the problem was? So Young has a right to be upset because Park, Volker, Brody and Rush are not all knowing?

Young wanted action, not words. Ever notice how little technobabble there was in RDM's BSG (assuming you watched it)? Same principle. Young doesn't want to know that the flux capacitor is only at 0.008394% power because the power couplings behind the tertiary adjunct of the main computer's third control panel have depolarised or something.

He wanted them to work the problem rather than waste time explaining why they don't know. In a high stress, time sensitive situation, I'm sure you'd want your eggheads to work it rather than explain it. (The way he did it is addressed below)



A competent commander is suppose to keep cool during a crisis situation and not fly off the handle.


Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief. In the previous few weeks, he's been couped up on the ship (the intergalactic trip), beseiged by the blues, killed a friend (then revived him) then his ship came under seige from the inside.

Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship. Whether he's politicking with Telford on Icarus, or Wray/Rush on Destiny, he has to be constantly watching his back and that kind of pressure is mentally exhausting. As people have said, he probably suffers from some degree of PTSD, and when coupled with mental exhaustion, momentarily losing his cool is hardly surprising. Any military psychologist or psychiatrist would have prescribed Young plenty of R+R before this point, but as you yourself pointed out, who is there to step up? Officers who are wet behind the ears, an underqualified HR expert, or the mad scientist who is chasing his dream?

The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.



Yes venting the atmosphere may have resulted in LA killing all the hostages. Young needed to cut his losses and end the threat. He didn't and now instead of 10 hostages at risk the entire crew is and he has lost the ship.


He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.



No there wasn't and doing what Young did lost the ship and put everyone's' life in imminent mortal peril.


Young opted for the high risk vs high reward gambit, and it was a solid plan to achieve his goals, given the other options he had at the time: vent atmosphere and kill all the hostages; frontal assault bloodbath; or going all in, where he can win it all or lose it all. He chose the most audacious plan, and like high risk vs high reward thoughout history, sometimes it doesn't pay. This time, it didn't.



Much more hysterical. Keeping cool are what good commanders are suppose to do.


Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.



No I pointed out a catastrophic tactical mistake that would have thwarted LA's attack and saved the ship and only put Telford's life at risk; a life that may have been able to be saved if he was resuscitated in time. A mistake that General O'Neill thought serious enough to threaten to remove him from command for.

Given what we already know about Young, and that he spent the better part of the previous 2 episodes saving Telford, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Young did what he did. It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).

Lahela
June 15th, 2010, 05:33 AM
This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.

^^^ This!

Everyone on Destiny has screwed up something, to some degree, and that is precisely why I enjoy the characters so much - even the ones whose actions I don't agree with (and there are quite a few of them). There's no delineation between military and civilian, between male and female, blonde and brunette or whatever - they are all flawed, fallible and utterly, painfully and frustratingly human.

jelgate
June 15th, 2010, 05:38 AM
^^^ This!

Everyone on Destiny has screwed up something, to some degree, and that is precisely why I enjoy the characters so much - even the ones whose actions I don't agree with (and there are quite a few of them). There's no delineation between military and civilian, between male and female, blonde and brunette or whatever - they are all flawed, fallible and utterly, painfully and frustratingly human.

Except BAG of course

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 15th, 2010, 06:55 AM
Except BAG of course

I’m sure even BAG made a mistake in his notes. This is the Destiny crew we are talking about, it’s dysfunctional junction on the ship.

jelgate
June 15th, 2010, 07:06 AM
I’m sure even BAG made a mistake in his notes. This is the Destiny crew we are talking about, it’s dysfunctional junction on the ship.

Blasphemy. May the Great Notetaker have mercy on you

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 07:12 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Young and Rush are very interesting characters because they are both quite fallible and human? Rush, as Shai Hulud pointed out, is quite the Machavellian but also capable of quite deep emotional attachments. He's desperately seeking something, we're not sure what. He's willing to throw people under the bus but doesn't seem to delight in his choices when he does do the throwing.

Young, on the other hand, wants desperately to be on the side of the angels and has a much harder time making hard choices that end up with people dead whether he cares about them or not. He, conversely, recognizes that in his position he must make extremely hard decisions that will end up with people under his jurisdiction dieing. He hates that. He wants things to go smoothly but doesn't really have the personality, in extreme situations, to get people to work at their best. As another person pointed out he yells, without much purpose, when he gets frustrated or angry but I think he recognizes how useless the yelling is despite his inability to control it. He cares quite deeply for the people under his command and laments every death, particularly the trivial ones.

This show would be much blander if Rush were the archetype genius who saves the day 5 minutes before the end of the episode so the reset button can be pushed. The show would be much blander if Young were the archetype commander who everyone loves and respects who has an almost magical ability to get people from very different backgrounds to work together without conflict and who always makes the right call.

SG:U is much better for the gray characters it has presented.The Rush/Young dynamic is one of the more fascinating in thise series. In fact, it's one of the more interesting I've seen in a LOT of series. The two play off each other all the time and I think the writers are clearly setting us up for a friendship, if a hard earned one. I imagine Young being a colder person at one point, being able to make the decisions that would have had him end up where he is. Then something happens and changes him and he can't feel the same anymore and is changed. Rush, from the episode Human, was clearly a different person before his wife died, and then, something changed, and he became a colder person. These two guys are on opposite sides of the same spectrum. But they are on the same spectrum.




Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief.....

...Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship......The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.

....Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.

.... It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).
I think considering what he's coping with, he's held it together pretty well. I'm just not seeing all this "hysteria" that's getting thrown around; I don't think we've seen anything even remotely like that from Young. He's clearly under a hell of a lot of strain, but hysteria? No. Frustration and anger, yes. And yes, he's not had any sort of a break and is expected (by "us" apparently), to be perfect and never falter. I think that if you ignore Young's need to keep his crew together, and that means all the crew, then I'd say that maybe there isn't enough thought being considered about his character before the character assassinations begin. There are very few people on that ship that could stand up to that sort of scrutiny, which is what the idea is, I suppose.

Lahela
June 15th, 2010, 10:21 AM
Except BAG of course

Well of course, but I was talking about the mere humans.

Blackhole
June 15th, 2010, 11:20 AM
He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.

If you are suggesting that initially evacuating the gate room would have been rendered moot by the door opening devices then you are incorrect.

First as I have already said Young should have expected LA to be able to breech the gate room doors very fast. Even if the door opening devices couldn't have been expected, explosives would have been. We have seen Scott open a door with explosives just about as fast as LA did with their door opening devices. Young had to know that once the LA invaders arrived that they could open the doors with explosives very quickly.

Volker and Brody said it would take less than a minute to vent the room to vacuum. A person would pass out well before vacuum was reached. If Young had evacuated the room immediately after the first group of invaders was thrown through they would have been incapacitated before any action could have been taken. All the others arriving in a vacuum would have passed out in seconds. The attack would have been thwarted.

That was why General O’Neill was shown criticizing Young’s decision and threatening to replace him in command. The plan would have worked and his choice to delay was a critical and clear error in judgment that cost the ship and put everyone's lives in mortal danger.


His initial plan was to capture them, possibly for intel.

No, there was nothing there for me to respond to. I could have ignored it or not quote it, but I left it in for completeness' sake.

Young wanted action, not words. Ever notice how little technobabble there was in RDM's BSG (assuming you watched it)? Same principle. Young doesn't want to know that the flux capacitor is only at 0.008394% power because the power couplings behind the tertiary adjunct of the main computer's third control panel have depolarised or something.

He wanted them to work the problem rather than waste time explaining why they don't know. In a high stress, time sensitive situation, I'm sure you'd want your eggheads to work it rather than explain it. (The way he did it is addressed below)

I don't care what Young wanted. It was impossible for them to fix a problem when you don't know what was causing it. Young was so angry and frustrated that he lost it. Suggesting that they were making excuses and he called them on it is ridiculous and is just plain ignoring what happened. And I still think for a moment he was hysterical.


Again, easy to be objective when you're on the outside. He's in a highly unsual situation with no downtime and no immediate hope for relief. In the previous few weeks, he's been couped up on the ship (the intergalactic trip), beseiged by the blues, killed a friend (then revived him) then his ship came under seige from the inside.

Young has essentially been "on" since before he arrived on the ship. Whether he's politicking with Telford on Icarus, or Wray/Rush on Destiny, he has to be constantly watching his back and that kind of pressure is mentally exhausting. As people have said, he probably suffers from some degree of PTSD, and when coupled with mental exhaustion, momentarily losing his cool is hardly surprising. Any military psychologist or psychiatrist would have prescribed Young plenty of R+R before this point, but as you yourself pointed out, who is there to step up? Officers who are wet behind the ears, an underqualified HR expert, or the mad scientist who is chasing his dream?

The man's exhausted and frayed around the edges. He's written to be much more human than the other superheroes we're used to from Stargate. If he's guilty of faltering for a moment, then colour me guilty too.

He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.

Young opted for the high risk vs high reward gambit, and it was a solid plan to achieve his goals, given the other options he had at the time: vent atmosphere and kill all the hostages; frontal assault bloodbath; or going all in, where he can win it all or lose it all. He chose the most audacious plan, and like high risk vs high reward thoughout history, sometimes it doesn't pay. This time, it didn't.

Aside from giving Rush a Glasgow kiss and lashing out at the squints in this episode, he's kept his cool pretty well. The only other outburst I can remember at the minute is the "non judicial punishment" of Spencer.

Given what we already know about Young, and that he spent the better part of the previous 2 episodes saving Telford, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Young did what he did. It's easy for O'Neill to be objective, but look at his history. He's the last one who should judge Young for trying to save the life of a friend.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I'm sure Young would realise (as he did with marooning Rush), that some of his decisions were based on emotion and not always for the best.

If you ignore Young's driving need to keep his crew "together" then it's easy to assassinate his character and call him a lousy leader, but he's written as posessing a pathological need not to have anymore blood on his hands, and that pushes him to go high risk to save his people, even if it's counter intuitive. His flaw is what makes him whole (compared to Jack or John in their first seasons).

You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.

As far as your high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.

Blackhole
June 15th, 2010, 12:04 PM
I think considering what he's coping with, he's held it together pretty well. I'm just not seeing all this "hysteria" that's getting thrown around; I don't think we've seen anything even remotely like that from Young. He's clearly under a hell of a lot of strain, but hysteria? No. Frustration and anger, yes. And yes, he's not had any sort of a break and is expected (by "us" apparently), to be perfect and never falter. I think that if you ignore Young's need to keep his crew together, and that means all the crew, then I'd say that maybe there isn't enough thought being considered about his character before the character assassinations begin. There are very few people on that ship that could stand up to that sort of scrutiny, which is what the idea is, I suppose.

Personally I said he was hysterical for a moment. Have others passed around “hysteria”?

Here is the transcript for the scene in question:

CONTROL INTERFACE ROOM. Young storms in and glares at Rush, Brody, Dale Volker and Lisa Park.

YOUNG: What the hell just happened?

VOLKER: We still don't know.

PARK: We're just getting systems back online, then maybe we can analyse ...

YOUNG (furiously): Screw analyse. Fix it!

BRODY: We've gotta know what's broken first.

YOUNG (loudly, sternly): Do it now.

(The others stare at him, waiting for him to calm down. He turns away, breathing rapidly and fighting his fury. After a few seconds, he turns back to them, still visibly upset.)

YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

PARK (appalled): What?!

(Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

(Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

(Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

(Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

(Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.)

YOUNG: I want you to figure out what's wrong with this ship and fix it. Fix it now.

(Tetchily Rush slams his notebook onto the console. Young turns his gaze to Brody, who lifts his hands clear of his jacket and steps away. Unnoticed by any of the men, Lisa is still taking in the news of death of Rivers, who was one of her many sources of “reading material”. Young glowers at Brody and Volker for a moment, then leaves the room. Rush watches him go.)

The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it?

When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst by Young before in a command crisis situation? You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Why was the scene in Incursion 1 where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement put in there if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind?

The transcript for the scene follows:

YOUNG: I need to speak to General O'Neill.

Not long afterwards, Young is sitting opposite Jack in his office.

O'NEILL: Second-guessing a decision is a waste of time.

(Young looks down, embarrassed. Jack stares at him sternly.)

O'NEILL: I'm not there ... but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should be.

YOUNG: I-I can't speak to that, sir.

O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.

YOUNG: Yes, sir. At the time, I believed that venting the Gateroom would kill both Doctor Rush and Colonel Telford. They deserved a chance.

O'NEILL: We lost two 302 pilots sent to stop the attack.

YOUNG: I'm sorry.

O'NEILL: Colonel Carter knew she'd lose her ship if she tried to save them, but it was the right decision.

YOUNG (in a whisper): Yes, sir.

(He lowers his head again, sighing.)

O'NEILL: Are you up for this, Everett?

(Young raises his head and gets to his feet.)

YOUNG: Yes, sir.

O'NEILL: Because somebody'll take your place if you're not.

YOUNG: I'm not gonna let anybody take that ship, sir.

O'NEILL: Then get your ass back there.

(Nodding, Young leaves the room.)

You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.

Do you disagree that if Young had immediately evacuated the gate room to vacuum that it would have very likely thwarted the LA attack?

Do you disagree that ending the attack at this point is infinitely preferable to the situation Destiny was in at the end of the episode, i.e., the LA in control and all the military contingent moments away from execution?

In my mind Young’s decision to delay evacuation of the gate room had catastrophic consequences for the crew and ship. Do you dispute my conclusion?

Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 12:39 PM
Personally I said he was hysterical for a moment. Have others passed around “hysteria”?Yes, I have seen it, and the description in any case was salted throughout your first post. I see you\ve quoted the transcript and oh, look, supplied me with a definiteion no less! But I disagree that what we saw was hysteria. I would prefer to avoid a Rush example but it's unavoidable. The only time that I have ever seen hysteria displayed by anyone on SGU was by Rush, in Darkness, when he was afraid that Destiny would go cold and dark. I am understanding of that, in that he was clearly ill and also under an incredible amount of strain. We're going to disagree, Blackhole, and all the quoting of transcript and offering of definitions isn't going to change that. I simply do not equate anger and frustration - that were quickly dialed back and moved on from no less- as being hysteria. Your mileage may vary. So you saw hysteria. Good for you. I did not, and until I see something like the scene in darkness where a character completely loses it, I'll give the character the benefit of the doubt.



The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think his exchange with Park and the others wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it?how do I describe it? As anger and frustration by a man that wants actions and not a bunch of explanations about why things aren't possible. I see it as neither excessive nor uncontrolled. It wasn't prolonged screaming or crying. He shouted, and then he stopped shouting. When Park asked him not to yell, he had no problem at all not yelling. These are not the actions of someone that is out of control or hysterical. they're the actions of someone frustrated and angry, which is something else entirely.


When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst by Young before in a command crisis situation? You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Why was the scene in Incursion 1 where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement put in there if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind?Unprovoked? That's going to break down to a matter of what you believe provocation is and I have no desire to open that can of worms of who did what to whom and whether it was deserved or not. Personally, I have yet to see him get pissed if he wasn't provoked. Again, YMMV. You've got several different things running at the same time here and you've asked them all at various times in various threads. And I've answered. Evacuate the game room and kill Rush (or who he believed to be Rush) as well as possibly Telford. We can play "what he should have" all day but what we have to go on is what he did, and that's choose to save at least one man's life, possibly two, believing that he could bargain to get them back.Criticism by O'Neill - several posters have rightly said that O'Neill really has some gall in criticising Young for that given what he's done to save people. But we're talking about what I thought and what did I think? I think that O\Neill told Young what he needed so that Young could pull himself together.At the end of that talk, Young walks out of that office more determined than ever to do what has to be done. I kind of believe that THAT was the point. It's what any senior should do for any junior and I don't see it the way you do.


Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.right, it's calling the shots as YOU see it. You're allowed, go for it. Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.


Do you disagree that if Young had immediately evacuated the gate room to vacuum that it would have very likely thwarted the LA attack?we've had this discussion also, Blackhole, and I don't know how many more times I can say it. The first plan was perfect, sure. Plans change, that is something that happens in every war. He didn't expect Telford/Rush to come through the wormhole. When he saw what he believed was Rush, he changed a plan, not knowing that the LA could break those locks. If he had made another decision, he'd be getting bagged on for that too. There really is no way to win this as more and more elaborate "he could have's" come out of every discussion.


Do you disagree that ending the attack at this point is infinitely preferable to the situation Destiny was in at the end of the episode, i.e., the LA in control and all the military contingent moments away from execution?we're halfway through seeing a plan being enacted. It's like walking out of the movie theater before the ending and complaining that the plan didn't work when you didn't bother to stay and watch.


In my mind Young’s decision to delay evacuation of the gate room had catastrophic consequences for the crew and ship. Do you dispute my conclusion?In your mind, I'm sure you believe that. Again, mileage varies and so I dispute the conclusion. Because I'm waiting for the conclusion.


Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.I don't believe that Young has lost the ship, and Young believed he was saving Rush's life, not Telford's, although the two are linked. I don't believe trying to save a man's life, especially when it's a man you've had Rush's history with, should be overlooked.

As we've gone around this several times, I think it's best to simply leave it as agreeing to disagree.

JustAnotherVoice
June 15th, 2010, 12:53 PM
If you are suggesting that initially evacuating the gate room would have been rendered moot by the door opening devices then you are incorrect.

First as I have already said Young should have expected LA to be able to breech the gate room doors very fast. Even if the door opening devices couldn't have been expected, explosives would have been. We have seen Scott open a door with explosives just about as fast as LA did with their door opening devices. Young had to know that once the LA invaders arrived that they could open the doors with explosives very quickly.

Volker and Brody said it would take less than a minute to vent the room to vacuum. A person would pass out well before vacuum was reached. If Young had evacuated the room immediately after the first group of invaders was thrown through they would have been incapacitated before any action could have been taken.

If the gateroom was evacuated before they got on board, you may have a point, but the plan was to give them the opportunity to surrender, otherwise other precautions would have been taken.

Young made a snap decision in order to save the life (or alternatively, not risk the life) of a friend. Was it the wrong decision? Possibly. After the emotional rollercoaster ride the two of them had been through (recently and not so recently), was it an easy decision, I'm sure it wasn't.


All the others arriving in a vacuum would have passed out in seconds. The attack would have been thwarted.

Young would have a room full of corpses, not people passed out, but the attack being thwarted point stands. It would have been messy too.



That was why General O’Neill was shown criticizing Young’s decision and threatening to replace him in command. The plan would have worked and his choice to delay was a critical and clear error in judgment that cost the ship and put everyone's lives in mortal danger.

Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.



I don't care what Young wanted. It was impossible for them to fix a problem when you don't know what was causing it. Young was so angry and frustrated that he lost it. Suggesting that they were making excuses and he called them on it is ridiculous and is just plain ignoring what happened. And I still think for a moment he was hysterical.

Shades of Young. He didn't care what the problem was, either. He wanted reassurances that people were working on the problem, but instead, he got "but we don't know" or words to that effect. The scene could have potentially turned out very differently if Park had said something along the lines of "we're working it now".

I don't deny that Young was angry or frustrated, nor do I deny he lost it at Rush. However, I didn't at any point say that (a) the eggheads were making excuses; or (b) Young called them out on it. Young wanted them to work the problem, not waste time explaining why they didn't know.

He raised his voice in frustration yes, but he didn't lose it until Rush did what Rush does best, which was one step too far at the time.



You are absolutely right that Young has been under tremendous stress and has had overwhelming responsibility for the last year in a command he didn't want or ask for. I fully acknowledge that he had the absolute best of intentions and the deepest concern for those under his command. I have been an ardent Young supporter and I don't dislike the character at all but I am not going to ignore what transpired either. Imo he underwent a psychological deterioration possibly brought on by PTSD and unintentionally made a catastrophic and horrible mistake that cost him the ship and put everyone's life at dire risk. I really feel for him but he is the commander and is responsible for what happens under his command - period. Pointing out deterioration in his behavior and holding him accountable for the consequences of his decisions is not Young bashing or assassinating his character it is calling the shots as I see it.

It is bashing when you ignore his raison d'etre in your original argument. At times, it seems the only thing that keeps him going is the desire to get his crew home safely. Take that out of the equation and of course he seems totally irrational. But if you use it as the cornerstone of Young's personality profile, everything he does makes a certain kind of sense - it has it's own consistent logic, even if you don't agree with it.



As far as your high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion.


I didn't condone it, but knowing what motivates Young, I can empathise with his justification. We'll have to agree to disagree.



Next season there may be a miraculous dues ex machina resolution that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire or there may be an arc where LA takes over the ship. We will have to wait in see. But imo the fact remains that Young lost the ship and the injuries and loss of life could have been prevented with the possible exception of Telford if Young had had the resolve to do what was necessary when LA first boarded the ship – evacuate the gate room to vacuum and hopefully try to resuscitate Telford later.

If you're willing to sentence a friend, who you've just saved, to death, then you're tougher than granite. Like I've said, Young isn't willing to cross that line.

I have no doubt that the writers will have a deus ex machina for Young, just like they did it with Jack, John, Sam, Rodney, Daniel et al. They like their CG explosions for sciency characters, so maybe Rush will accidentally cause the smaller star in the binary system to go nova or something, just as Young is about to be executed.

Blackhole
June 15th, 2010, 03:06 PM
Yes, I have seen it, and the description in any case was salted throughout your first post. I see you\ve quoted the transcript and oh, look, supplied me with a definiteion no less! But I disagree that what we saw was hysteria. I would prefer to avoid a Rush example but it's unavoidable. The only time that I have ever seen hysteria displayed by anyone on SGU was by Rush, in Darkness, when he was afraid that Destiny would go cold and dark. I am understanding of that, in that he was clearly ill and also under an incredible amount of strain. We're going to disagree, Blackhole, and all the quoting of transcript and offering of definitions isn't going to change that. I simply do not equate anger and frustration - that were quickly dialed back and moved on from no less- as being hysteria. Your mileage may vary. So you saw hysteria. Good for you. I did not, and until I see something like the scene in darkness where he completely loses it, I'll give the character the benefit of the doubt.

how do I describe it? As anger and frustration by a man that wants actions and not a bunch of explanations about why things aren't possible. I see it as neither excessive or uncontrolled. It wasn't prolonged screaming or crying. He shouted, and then he stopped shouting. When Park asked him not to yell, he had no problem at all not yelling. These are not the actions of someone that is out of control or hysterical. they're the actions of someone frustrated and angry, which is something else entirely.

xxxevilgrinxxx I said hysterical for a moment. I even defined exactly what I meant by it. It is a world of difference to say Young was hysterical for a moment and what we saw was hysteria. Feel free to make your point but please don't do so by misrepresenting what I was saying. If you don't think for a moment (short period of time) that Young's outburst of yelling and screaming at Park and others and his attempted assault of Rush wasn’t clearly demonstrative of excessive or uncontrollable emotion then that is your right. Ask a military friend how many times they have seen their commanding officers in crisis situation yell and scream at them for no reason and then try to assault one of them. I guess we have very different views of what the proper behavior of a commander should be.

And I see no reason for you to be snarky when I included transcripts and definitions of exactly what I meant. Since you clearly misrepresented my meaning; you obviously needed to read them.


Unprovoked? That's going to break down to a matter of what you believe provocation is and I have no desire to open that can of worms of who did what to whom and whether it was deserved or not. Personally, I have yet to see him get pissed if he wasn't provoked. Again, YMMV. You've got several different things running at the same time here and you've asked them all at various times in various threads. And I've answered. Evacuate the game room and kill Rush (or who he believed to be Rush) as well as possibly Telford. We can play "what he should have" all day but what we have to go on is what he did, and that's choose to save at least one man's life, possibly two, believing that he could bargain to get them back.Criticism by O'Neill - several posters have rightly said that O'Neill really has some gall in criticising Young for that given what he's done to save people. But we're talking about what I thought and what did I think? I think that O\Neill told Young what he needed so that Young could pull himself together.At the end of that talk, Young walks out of that office more determined than ever to do what has to be done. I kind of believe that THAT was the point. It's what any senior should do for any junior and I don't see it the way you do.

right, it's calling the shots as YOU see it. You're allowed, go for it. Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.

we've had this discussion also, Blackhole, and I don't know how many more times I can say it. The first plan was perfect, sure. Plans change, that is something that happens in every war. He didn't expect Telford/Rush to come through the wormhole. When he saw what he believed was Rush, he changed a plan, not knowing that the LA could break those locks. If he had made another decision, he'd be getting bagged on for that too. There really is no way to win this as more and more elaborate "he could have's" come out of every discussion.

we're halfway through seeing a plan being enacted. It's like walking out of the movie theater before the ending and complaining that the plan didn't work when you didn't bother to stay and watch.

In your mind, I'm sure you believe that. Again, mileage varies and so I dispute the conclusion. Because I'm waiting for the conclusion.
I don't believe that Young has lost the ship, and Young believed he was saving Rush's life, not Telford's, although the two are linked. I don't believe trying to save a man's life, especially when it's a man you've had Rush's history with, should be overlooked.

As we've gone around this several times, I think it's best to simply leave it as agreeing to disagree.

If Young had ordered the stones disconnected it would have taken Rush out of the equation. Whether he thought of it or not is irrelevant. If he didn’t it was an error of judgment. Of course his decision to delay was to save a man’s life. I have never questioned that Young's intention was not honorable just that his decision to do so allowed LA to gain a foothold that led to the loss of the ship. The only reasonable argument to justify his choice to delay was the high risk vs. high reward gambit; if you think it was a justified risk that went bad, and are willing to accept the consequences of failure then your view is sound. We may differ on what was a justified risk. That being said, the clear fact still remains that at the end of the episode the ship had fallen and the military contingent was on the verge of execution. You are right that we don’t know what will happen until next season. But regardless of how favorable a dues ex machine resolution may occur that pulls Young’s butt out of the fire there still have been several fatalities and injuries that would have been avoided had Young made the sound tactical decision and immediately evacuated the gate room and risked Telford’s life.

You are free to disagree with my conclusion that Young has undergone psychological deterioration over the last two episodes But I still stand by my assertion that his excessive and uncontrolled emotional outburst to Park and the others and his attempt to attack Rush; coupled with the scene where General O’Neill’s criticizes his decision and asks “Are you up for this, Everett?”; and the inclusion of the scene where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); are compelling evidence that he is having a breakdown and it is a part of the show's storyline.

Your claim of “ Just understand that not everyone sees it your way and what you might see as calling the shots, others might see as bagging on a character and character assassination.” is not fair or accurate. The entire premise of my argument is that Young made the wrong tactical decision which cost him the ship. The ending of the episode clearly demonstrates the accuracy of that conclusion regardless of how favorable a resolution there is next season. Now if you want to suggest there isn’t enough evidence yet to support my conclusion that Young is undergoing psychological deterioration then fair enough. To claim that these views are in some fashion bagging on a character and character assassination are completely unfair and unreasonable. By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty which is preposterous.

Feel free to not reply to my post. I am happy at this point to agree to disagree.

Blackhole
June 15th, 2010, 03:27 PM
If the gateroom was evacuated before they got on board, you may have a point, but the plan was to give them the opportunity to surrender, otherwise other precautions would have been taken.

The plan was to evacuate the chamber once they arrived. Young delayed when he saw Telford.


Young made a snap decision in order to save the life (or alternatively, not risk the life) of a friend. Was it the wrong decision? Possibly. After the emotional rollercoaster ride the two of them had been through (recently and not so recently), was it an easy decision, I'm sure it wasn't.

I never questioned the easiness just his choice to delay.


Young would have a room full of corpses, not people passed out, but the attack being thwarted point stands. It would have been messy too.

You are right they probably would have died.


Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.

True, but Jack has saved Earth a number of times so they must have cut him some slack. My point is more than whether O'Neill had a right to say anything to him but the fact that he did. I was speaking from a dramatic viewpoint as to why the writers had bothered to include that scene at all? The only reasonable explanation is it was there to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind. Another scene that was included for the same purpose was the scene where Sam is forced to leave two of her 302 pilots behind to save her ship. She was able to make the ultimate decision to sacrifice the two men when necessary. Young was not. He was unable to order the evacuation of the gate room because he knew it would kill Telford. So he delayed and passed up his only window of opportunity to thwart the LA attack while still confined to the gate room. His delay cost them the ship.

I can see no other reasonable explanation for the purpose of these two scenes along with Young’s emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush but to showcase that Young mental state had deteriorated to a point where he could no longer make those hardest of decisions that any competent commander must be capable of making and that it was part of the show's storyline.

How would you explain the inclusion of those two scenes and his emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush if not by that explanation?


Shades of Young. He didn't care what the problem was, either. He wanted reassurances that people were working on the problem, but instead, he got "but we don't know" or words to that effect. The scene could have potentially turned out very differently if Park had said something along the lines of "we're working it now".

I don't deny that Young was angry or frustrated, nor do I deny he lost it at Rush. However, I didn't at any point say that (a) the eggheads were making excuses; or (b) Young called them out on it. Young wanted them to work the problem, not waste time explaining why they didn't know.

He raised his voice in frustration yes, but he didn't lose it until Rush did what Rush does best, which was one step too far at the time.

Imo he was hysterical for a moment and he attacked Rush. Those aren't behaviors I would expect from a commander that was completely psychologically sound.


It is bashing when you ignore his raison d'etre in your original argument. At times, it seems the only thing that keeps him going is the desire to get his crew home safely. Take that out of the equation and of course he seems totally irrational. But if you use it as the cornerstone of Young's personality profile, everything he does makes a certain kind of sense - it has it's own consistent logic, even if you don't agree with it.

I didn't condone it, but knowing what motivates Young, I can empathise with his justification. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I never questioned the honorability of his intent just the soundness of his decision. How can criticizing mistakes in judgment be bashing? By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty of bashing which is preposterous.


If you're willing to sentence a friend, who you've just saved, to death, then you're tougher than granite. Like I've said, Young isn't willing to cross that line.

I never said it was easy just necessary.


I have no doubt that the writers will have a deus ex machina for Young, just like they did it with Jack, John, Sam, Rodney, Daniel et al. They like their CG explosions for sciency characters, so maybe Rush will accidentally cause the smaller star in the binary system to go nova or something, just as Young is about to be executed.

I agree.

wargrafix
June 15th, 2010, 07:00 PM
When things go well, he is pretty good. however at the first sign of difficulty he's porked.


The problem is confidence. Even jack knows that. When he overcompensates, he screws up.

JustAnotherVoice
June 15th, 2010, 11:49 PM
The plan was to evacuate the chamber once they arrived. Young delayed when he saw Telford.

I never questioned the easiness just his choice to delay.

Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.



True, but Jack has saved Earth a number of times so they must have cut him some slack. My point is more than whether O'Neill had a right to say anything to him but the fact that he did. I was speaking from a dramatic viewpoint as to why the writers had bothered to include that scene at all? The only reasonable explanation is it was there to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind. Another scene that was included for the same purpose was the scene where Sam is forced to leave two of her 302 pilots behind to save her ship. She was able to make the ultimate decision to sacrifice the two men when necessary. Young was not. He was unable to order the evacuation of the gate room because he knew it would kill Telford. So he delayed and passed up his only window of opportunity to thwart the LA attack while still confined to the gate room. His delay cost them the ship.

I can see no other reasonable explanation for the purpose of these two scenes along with Young’s emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush but to showcase that Young mental state had deteriorated to a point where he could no longer make those hardest of decisions that any competent commander must be capable of making and that it was part of the show's storyline.


Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.



How would you explain the inclusion of those two scenes and his emotional outburst and attempted attack on Rush if not by that explanation?


To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.



Imo he was hysterical for a moment and he attacked Rush. Those aren't behaviors I would expect from a commander that was completely psychologically sound.

Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?



I never questioned the honorability of his intent just the soundness of his decision. How can criticizing mistakes in judgment be bashing? By your argument anyone who points out a negative action of a character would be guilty of bashing which is preposterous.

I never said it was easy just necessary.


Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.

Kelara
June 15th, 2010, 11:54 PM
We're back to "character assassination", huh? I wonder if it will still get called that if TPTB make it canon some time.

The way I see it: Noone disputes that Young is under great stress from minute one of the show (personal drama, Telford rivalry, LA attack1, gating to destiny just to mention the first things). Noone disputes that Young wasn't prepared for a lot that happened since then, add in that he is hit by every persons death under his command (to whatever degree). Postulating that he deep down is a good guy wanting to do right (which is hard for me, personally, to do, as the wife scenes biased me as to the mindset and motivations of the character... which I am aware of, but still unwilling to just handwave the scenes). While he may or may not be hysterical, what do you think will happen when he learns about Telfords and TJs injuries and the loss of the baby?

Personally, I can't see a deus ex machina for that situation. He cares/cared about them and would really have to be made of Teflon to just shrug that off. He's barely plodding on through now (see his reactions after the mutiny, the not shaving thing, immediately handing control to Wray in the last eps might also be taken as evidence), so what if he really crumbles to that last strain? It would do the totally horrible "trick" of keeping the situation realistic. As much as I hate the phrase "this is not SG1/SGA" it would fit in with Young being the first military commander of the franchise to step down because the strain gets to be too much to deal with and him admitting to it. Which *gasp* surely never happens in the real military but only on TV, right ;)?

Also, stepping down doesn't have to be a forever, "good riddance to you!" thing. It might be temporary to deal with the worst immediate fallout. Just as a thought.

garhkal
June 16th, 2010, 06:10 AM
the controls were transferred back to "our" side so Kiva doesn't command anything yet. Brody and Rush are in the Auxiliary Control Room, with control.

Not all. It was stopped mid transfer.


Regardless, venting atmosphere was a moot point because it would have taken far more time than it took the LA to open the doors with their devices, so they would have had those doors open anyway. The end result would have been the same.

Not if it was already vented. WE had ample time to sset that up.


He should never vent the room to kill the LA as they arrived, it would be a war crime.


Pray tell how would that be a war crime? They are not prisoners being killed...


So Young might fancy being seen as the benevolent "I will everything for everyone under my command" commander, but in truth his actions can be interpreted in hugely different ways, if one wants to.

While that is a good point, show me a senior officer who hsa NOT shown favoritism.


the end of S1 Young's lost pretty much everything; his ship, his baby, his bit on the side, his temper, his limp... He'll be tempered by adversity and emerge from it a far stronger, better person.

Only if he learns from all this.


Yes venting the atmosphere may have resulted in LA killing all the hostages. Young needed to cut his losses and end the threat. He didn't and now instead of 10 hostages at risk the entire crew is and he has lost the ship.

Very true. ALL battlefield commanders know that in combat there WILL be casualties. You just have to do what is right and minimize the risk to all. In this situation, losing the 12 hostages while saving the ship is minimizing the risk to all the rest. ERGO it is the better solution.


Hammond and Weir lost control of their bases all the time and yet kept control of them after the ordeal.

But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.


Young is acting like O'Neill when he should be acting like Hammond. Scott can act like O'Neill and pull off insane rescues at the last minute but Young should be ready to sacrifice anyone on Destiny in order to save the crew. Would Hammond have hesiated to blow the base if a bunch of aliens got a foothold? No he would have the countdown for a nuke running the moment they got a foothold.

Heck it does not even have to be a foot hold situation that caused it. Just an issue that could ge out (all those viruses etc).


He gave them the opportunity to surrender, and the doors would have been opened by those nifty lock picks before the air could have been pulled. The line of argument is rendered moot by forces outside of Young's control. The time it took from Kiva giving the word to the first door popping open was less than 30 seconds.

Hence why i have advocated for also removing all the gravity.


He said, right at the very beginning, that he would get everyone home. I take that to mean that he wouldn't sacrifice lives needlessly, or at least provoke an action that would be tantamount to pulling the trigger himself. From what we know of Young, he believes that he has too much blood on his hands already.

But when the cost of not making that decision (sacrificing those lives) is at the cost of MORE lives,then he SHOULD have made the call.


Again, Jack should be the last person in the franchise to criticize someone for risking it all for a friend.

UBT when jack did it, it was only his own ass on the line, not all the bases (ships).

jelgate
June 16th, 2010, 06:21 AM
\
But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.
.
Thats a load of crap. How many times did Hammond and Weir open the irsis even though regulations said not too because of his care for soldiers and "His No Man Left Behind" philosphy

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 16th, 2010, 06:23 AM
Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.



Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.



To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.



Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?

Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.Green...well, an attempt at green :)


Not all. It was stopped mid transfer.
Not if it was already vented. WE had ample time to sset that up.

Pray tell how would that be a war crime? They are not prisoners being killed...
While that is a good point, show me a senior officer who hsa NOT shown favoritism.



Only if he learns from all this.



Very true. ALL battlefield commanders know that in combat there WILL be casualties. You just have to do what is right and minimize the risk to all. In this situation, losing the 12 hostages while saving the ship is minimizing the risk to all the rest. ERGO it is the better solution.



But none of those weer from the commanders UNWILLINGNESS to do what was needed cause of personal feelings.



Heck it does not even have to be a foot hold situation that caused it. Just an issue that could ge out (all those viruses etc).



Hence why i have advocated for also removing all the gravity.



But when the cost of not making that decision (sacrificing those lives) is at the cost of MORE lives,then he SHOULD have made the call.



UBT when jack did it, it was only his own ass on the line, not all the bases (ships).I'm not sure if you're aware, but most of what you have quoted are the quotes of someone else. Can you please edit your post to either take my name out of those things that I haven't said or remove my name altogether? Thanks

Blackhole
June 16th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Again, his choice to delay was informed by his character's driving need to not have blood on his hands. He hesitated for a moment, and imo, it was a very human thing to do. He is human, he is flawed.

Jack is quite literally "the hero from another story" so of course they'll cut him slack. He's the franchise's golden boy.

Comparing Sam and Young isn't fair to either character. She's the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman, and her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's. The situations arent exactly the same either - there's no coming back from an exploding planet but it's possible to push back a boarding party.

To highlight just how different life on Destiny is to life in the Milky Way. It's easy for Jack and Sam to step back once in a while because they can put in for R+R before deployments. They can go home, relax, watch tv or surf the web, play a game of football or just chat with friends. Even having a home to go to for weekend furloughs can take stress away. Young is isolated from all of these things we take for granted - he doesn't even have anyone he can call a friend on board (until Telford arrived, anyway).

I'm not denying that Young is a bit war weary, I'm just saying that I don't see it to the same degree as you. Has his decision making been compromised? Again, I don't see that it has descended as far as you claim, given everything we've seen from his character.

Again with that word. I guess we have two different definitions of hysterical. You see hysterics and I see a very human outburst without his "commander's face" on, which people are prone to do. Agree to disagree on this (because dancing around semiotics is rather pointless online)?

Criticising without looking at the sum of his parts sounds a lot like bashing, and from the OP, that is what I saw. I freely admit that he has made more than a few questionable decisions, which by themselves are rather meaningless, but once put together, it does start to look like a dog and pony show.

However, the situation isn't resolved yet - it's basic drama 101. We're approaching the bottom of Act II (in a III act story), and this is the bleakest point in the narrative. All is lost, and the hero is looking down the barrel of his own gun, after the percieved deaths of people close to him (as close as they can get on the ship). The opening vignette of the S2 opener will be the litmus test, imo. We (the audience) have a good idea that Young and the gang will win, one way or the other, but it'll show the culmination of all the threads of the plan in action. Did Telford's deception hold up? Is Young's faith in Brody and Rush's skills justified? Will Scott and Greer play a big role in repelling the invaders? Where will the biggest dramatic payoffs be?

I acknowledge that he's flawed and showing the signs of the pressure he's under, but I don't just talk about how badly he's doing everything with 20/20 hindsight without taking into consideration his raison d'etre. Everything he's done, and all the decisions (questionable or not) he's made have not deviated from what was set out in the opening few episodes, imo.

You like Young and feel bad about the character. You see him as flawed but as doing the best he can under incredibly difficult circumstances. He has no friends; no place to go for R & R to escape from the overwhelming pressures of his command. His raison d'etre is not to make any decision that will directly leave any blood on his hands. He compassionately delayed evacuating the room saving Telford and not adding any more corpses from LA to his conscience. He has had a very tough time, anyone is going to get a little angry and frustrated and sure he is a little war weary but calling him hysterical is unfair and mean. Comparing him to “Jack the hero from another story, the franchise's golden boy and Sam the Wonder Woman to Jack's Superman (her baggage doesn't include the same things as Young's)” is unfair. You don’t understand how I can talk badly about him without taking into consideration everything he has been through and his honorable intentions. All my criticisms seem like slights and character bashing. This is Stargate everything usually works out for the best; I need to be patient and wait until next season’s episode before making any judgments.

The above is my attempt to put into words how I think you and some others probably feel about Young’s actions in Incursion 1 & 2 and view my arguments. It is not an attempt at sarcasm nor intended to belittle.

I tried to make a logical dispassionate evaluation of his command decisions based solely on how effective they were in repelling the LA attack and tried to evaluate the soundness of his judgment by determining what other commanders would have done had they been in his place. Everything Young has been through and his honorable intentions were considerations I viewed as irrelevant. I made an assessment of his psychological state of mind based on my observation of his emotional reactions and on how other characters have reacted and said to him. I also tried to demonstrate that my conclusions were an intended part of the storyline by citing (what I considered were) corroborative dialog and scenes.

After extensive debate I can see now that I am worlds apart from some posters in the way we each viewed what unfolded in the episode. They view that Young did the best he could in a very difficult situation and any criticisms of his actions, judgment or state of mind are unfounded and unfair; and we will all have to wait till next season to see how it all turns out.

My view is: due to psychological deterioration from PTSD, from past and time spent on Destiny Young could not order the evacuation of the gate room as he had planned because it probably would have involved the sacrifice of Telford’s life. The order was one that any competent military commander should and would have made because of its tactical soundness and necessity. By missing the critical window of opportunity he gave LA the time it needed to exit the gate room. His decision to delay was a catastrophic mistake that along with a string of other poor decisions imo lead to the loss of the ship. Furthermore, even if there is a miraculous deus ex machina resolution next season; the several fatalities and injuries that have already occurred would have been prevented if he had not delayed.

Loheat
June 16th, 2010, 11:33 AM
I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too

Blackhole
June 16th, 2010, 12:30 PM
I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too

Imo I think it was clear that the show intends to portray Young as crashing and burning. I don't know if there will be an immediate favorable resolution or if there will be an arc with LA in control of the ship? Will have to wait and see.

Artemis-Neith
June 16th, 2010, 12:48 PM
I think surrendering everybody in the hopes that your two scientists hidden away with a console will somehow save the day was a very foolish decision, too

What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.

Blackhole
June 16th, 2010, 01:35 PM
What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.

I completely agree.

Loheat
June 16th, 2010, 08:14 PM
What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.

He could come with a plan to take back the ship, anything over surrender. Hell, they even knew that every 34 minutes or whatever the lights would go out, that might give them the jump on the Lucian Alliance. I'm okay with him crashing and burning, I think the ending scene was great, and I felt defeated, as I imagine Young did.
I just think it was executed poorly because instead of thinking he made some moral decision to stop further loss of life I think he foolishly put his people in even greater danger

Blackhole
June 16th, 2010, 09:54 PM
He could come with a plan to take back the ship, anything over surrender. Hell, they even knew that every 34 minutes or whatever the lights would go out, that might give them the jump on the Lucian Alliance. I'm okay with him crashing and burning, I think the ending scene was great, and I felt defeated, as I imagine Young did.
I just think it was executed poorly because instead of thinking he made some moral decision to stop further loss of life I think he foolishly put his people in even greater danger

If by moral decision you mean to delay to try to save Telford's life I completely agree with you. I really feel for Young it would be a horrible place to be in to have to sacrifice a good friend to save the ship particularly given Telford was brainwashed for the last year or however long it was. Young just frees him then immediately has to give the order to kill him. That has to be the hardest thing a military officer would ever have to do is sacrifice a friend. I think Young wants to do the right thing but he is flawed and makes mistakes. Commanding Destiny has to be the most thankless job around. Flawed characters and moral ambiguity is what makes this show so interesting. No one can blame Young for making the mistake he did but the simple fact remains his compassion to save Telford cost him the ship. Since this is a TV show and things usually work out for the best the consequences of his mistake won't be as dire as they would have had this been a real situation. Although this show tries to be far more realistic than other shows; it may be that the resolution won't be as miraculous as it would have been if it had occurred on SG-1 or Atlantis. I fully expect that TJ is going to loose her baby and both her and Young are going to be devastated by it. I look forward to next season.

JustAnotherVoice
June 16th, 2010, 11:58 PM
After extensive debate I can see now that I am worlds apart from some posters in the way we each viewed what unfolded in the episode.

We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 12:51 AM
We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.

Excellent analogy by the way. It is interesting what you have said. If that is what you think we each have been debating about then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I have been arguing on the accuracy of my assessment - that he made a mistake, has suffered a deterioration in his state of mind and that it was an intended part of the storyline of the show; or as you aptly put on “the merits of Young’s ability”. I haven't been focusing on whether he should be replaced. From the title of my thread I can of course see why you thought that. In his current state of mind I do think Young’s command ability is impaired but at this point, I don’t have a suitable replacement in mind. Other than Telford, who does have the command experience; but may not be suitable because of his recent brainwashing; I don’t think there is another qualified replacement available. Young is a very smart man and able tactician. If he could get over his fear of loosing a man I think he would be able to resume his command. Although, how one gets over PTSD I don’t know. The Mighty Six platoon may have an insight? From what you have said, your arguments now make far more sense.

Tuvok
June 17th, 2010, 01:06 AM
What other chance do he have after all happened what happened? All of them reached a point where nothing could be done the easy way. Kiva is an enemy which will never give in to do a first step, she'll rather die, including her people, she knows Young is not made that way, so it was Young's turn, to find something. Anything.

Agreed.

When your between a Rock and a hard place. You head for the rock full tilt, cause at least you have the odds of busting through.

Or , When your choices are sucks a lot, to sucks a whole lot more. You take what you can get.

The original OP post was very thought out. But the centre stone is of which Young's decision to hand over command. A centre stone that does not hold considering his very limited options at the time. Die apart, or hand over command for a roll of a dice to survive . Not the best choices but the one's he had to work with.

Also, they shot his gal and risked the life of his surrogate son Greer and that irrating greenback Scott. Who he may question every little thing and whine. But still is his 2IC.

There will by a headbutt heading for someone when we get back..

JustAnotherVoice
June 17th, 2010, 02:39 AM
Excellent analogy by the way. It is interesting what you have said. If that is what you think we each have been debating about then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I have been arguing on the accuracy of my assessment - that he made a mistake, has suffered a deterioration in his state of mind and that it was an intended part of the storyline of the show; or as you aptly put on “the merits of Young’s ability”. I haven't been focusing on whether he should be replaced. From the title of my thread I can of course see why you thought that. In his current state of mind I do think Young’s command ability is impaired but at this point, I don’t have a suitable replacement in mind. Other than Telford, who does have the command experience; but may not be suitable because of his recent brainwashing; I don’t think there is another qualified replacement available. Young is a very smart man and able tactician. If he could get over his fear of loosing a man I think he would be able to resume his command. Although, how one gets over PTSD I don’t know. The Mighty Six platoon may have an insight? From what you have said, your arguments now make far more sense.

In my mind the accuracy of your assessment, his ongoing problems, and the nature of command are intrinsically linked, which is where we've been hung up on. Your assessment of the situation in the episode is fair (except for that word), he has made mistakes, but his current state of mind shouldn't be looked at in isolation, which was all I've been trying to say. It's easy to vilify the end result, but he started with honest intentions that have slowly escalated his approach as his stress levels/the situation has worsened. He definately comes across as being unable to see the forest through the trees. Maybe a well rested Young would have handled the situation vastly differently, but we'll never know for sure.

I don't think Young's condition is one that can be fixed, not with the avaliable tools. Time off, along with months/years of seeing a psychiatrist comes to mind, (or retirement as he had wanted after the Icarus posting) seems like the most reasonable "fixes", but neither is readily avaliable.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 04:13 AM
In my mind the accuracy of your assessment, his ongoing problems, and the nature of command are intrinsically linked, which is where we've been hung up on. Your assessment of the situation in the episode is fair (except for that word), he has made mistakes, but his current state of mind shouldn't be looked at in isolation, which was all I've been trying to say. It's easy to vilify the end result, but he started with honest intentions that have slowly escalated his approach as his stress levels/the situation has worsened. He definately comes across as being unable to see the forest through the trees. Maybe a well rested Young would have handled the situation vastly differently, but we'll never know for sure.

I don't think Young's condition is one that can be fixed, not with the avaliable tools. Time off, along with months/years of seeing a psychiatrist comes to mind, (or retirement as he had wanted after the Icarus posting) seems like the most reasonable "fixes", but neither is readily avaliable.

I am sorry, I am trying but I am still not understanding exactly what you think we differ on? What is it you are referring to by “that word”? What about his current state of mind can't be looked at in isolation?

JustAnotherVoice
June 17th, 2010, 05:39 AM
I am sorry, I am trying but I am still not understanding exactly what you think we differ on? What is it you are referring to by “that word”? What about his current state of mind can't be looked at in isolation?

That word being "hysterics".

I disagree with blasting the character without looking at what led him to that point, which is what I think you were doing in the OP. I full conceed that he's made mistakes, but very human mistakes under those circumstances.

His state of mind from the beginning of Incursion. Examining it in isolation would of course paint a much bleaker picture of him - paranoid, secretive, irrational and violent. But he wasn't always so frayed around the edges, etc, and he only reached that point through a successive series of events which took the whole seasons to push him to.

Again with the courtroom analogy, I saw our little discussion as the prosecution looking at the crime (the man on the edge), and defence looking at the reason behind it (he wasn't always at that point).

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 17th, 2010, 08:30 AM
Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 08:43 AM
Thats a load of crap. How many times did Hammond and Weir open the irsis even though regulations said not too because of his care for soldiers and "His No Man Left Behind" philosphy

But SG-1 and SGA were different series. In those, everyone comes home safe and happy, and you could magically save people. It was part of the campy fun.

In SGU, reality is more present, and people will die if you try to save everyone. You *have* to make harder choices. The series are just different, and marketed that way. So we have to judge Young unfit for being unable to make those hard calls, and for not thinking of the possibilities.

He didn't vent the gate room right away.
He didn't consider that the LA could have explosives to blow the doors.
He didn't think to undo the stones the second he saw Telford.
He waited to negotiate, even though that will cost him (despite what JM would like to believe)
He tried to save everyone, and instead got people killed and captured.
He tried an ambush and even bungled that, getting someone killed.
He trusted Telford as his *sole* plan, someone who may or may not have been faking.

In that light, Wray was more successful; at least getting some hostages released. I don't know who would be a better leader, but I do agree it's time to let someone else take over for awhile. Then we can judge who would be better.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 08:59 AM
That word being "hysterics".

I disagree with blasting the character without looking at what led him to that point, which is what I think you were doing in the OP. I full conceed that he's made mistakes, but very human mistakes under those circumstances.

His state of mind from the beginning of Incursion. Examining it in isolation would of course paint a much bleaker picture of him - paranoid, secretive, irrational and violent. But he wasn't always so frayed around the edges, etc, and he only reached that point through a successive series of events which took the whole seasons to push him to.

Again with the courtroom analogy, I saw our little discussion as the prosecution looking at the crime (the man on the edge), and defence looking at the reason behind it (he wasn't always at that point).

Thanks, I understand now. I went back and looked at my OP. The choice of the terms I employed could have been better. I should have been less deprecating and more respectful of him. At the time, I was angry at what happened to the ship and I felt that Young had let everyone down. From our and others’ discussions I now realize that Young’s choice to delay was based on compassion for his friend Telford. If I had been in his shoes and had gone through what he had since arriving on Destiny I could easily have delayed as well. Unfortunately, tactically I still think Young’s choice to delay was a critical error with catastrophic consequences. I also still think it is the intent of the show’s writers to portray his state of mind deteriorating from PSTD. My reason for this conclusion is his behavior to Park and the others, his attempt to assault Rush plus the inclusion of the O’Neill and Carter scenes I have already described.

If you look back to the OP I said: “I think for a moment he was completely out of control and was hysterical.” From the definition I posted later, I only meant that for a moment his outburst was “marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion”. Hysterical may be an inflammatory word but in the context I wrote it I still think its usage was accurate. Young was livid when he stormed into the control room and did imo loose control for a moment. Next time I will try to choose my descriptors better. Young does deserve respect for the thankless job of command he has been forced to assume. And I certainly can understand how easy it would have been for someone in his shoes to have made the same mistakes he did.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 09:10 AM
Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.

I agree if Young pulls himself together and leads the attack then he may be able to continue in command.

You wrote “If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.” is this what you meant? If so, if Young is still in command how can someone else lead the attack against the LA?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 17th, 2010, 09:34 AM
I agree if Young pulls himself together and leads the attack then he may be able to continue in command.

You wrote “If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.” is this what you meant? If so, if Young is still in command how can someone else lead the attack against the LA?

In a situation this desperate then people will follow the person who’s is actually doing something rather than whose “officially” in charge. If it’s Scott who has to rally the crew into an attack on the LA then he will have effectively bypassed Young’s authority. It is possible you could have a situation where Young is still officially in charge, however if he has continued his downward spiral of the last few eps this will simply lead to, for a time at least, Scott being the de facto leader, and holding all the real power on the ship, being his second in command.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 09:39 AM
In a situation this desperate then people will follow the person who’s is actually doing something rather than whose “officially” in charge. If it’s Scott who has to rally the crew into an attack on the LA then he will have effectively bypassed Young’s authority. It is possible you could have a situation where Young is still officially in charge, however if he has continued his downward spiral of the last few eps this will simply lead to, for a time at least, Scott being the de facto leader, and holding all the real power on the ship, being his second in command.

Given what has happened, how do you think the other military feel about Young now?

slimbones
June 17th, 2010, 10:10 AM
Hmm something has been bothering me. Instead of venting the room doesn't the gate room have upper walkways all around it. Wouldn't it have been easier to just have men up there behind barriers to hold them at gun point as the flew through the gate. I think young biggest mistake was allowing them all to come through the gate and get organized before he did anything everything was lost once that happened.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 17th, 2010, 11:20 AM
I belive if O'neill were there and Daniel was he wouldn't have vented the atmosphere and tried to negotiate and Kiva would open the doors. Let's look at it from Youngs side, He had a plan to stop the LA but the power went out and it got screwed up. So Rivers is killed, Young is very pissed as would anyone else so as a human he wrongly wanted blame someone else. Scientists are in charge of power tell them to fix problem don't analyze. So now Rush disrepects dead man when it was to Young Rush's responsabilty to shut up and fix the problem, Rush is like House he needs a punch.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 11:23 AM
But SG-1 and SGA were different series. In those, everyone comes home safe and happy, and you could magically save people. It was part of the campy fun.

In SGU, reality is more present, and people will die if you try to save everyone. You *have* to make harder choices. The series are just different, and marketed that way. So we have to judge Young unfit for being unable to make those hard calls, and for not thinking of the possibilities.

He didn't vent the gate room right away.
He didn't consider that the LA could have explosives to blow the doors.
He didn't think to undo the stones the second he saw Telford.
He waited to negotiate, even though that will cost him (despite what JM would like to believe)
He tried to save everyone, and instead got people killed and captured.
He tried an ambush and even bungled that, getting someone killed.
He trusted Telford as his *sole* plan, someone who may or may not have been faking.

In that light, Wray was more successful; at least getting some hostages released. I don't know who would be a better leader, but I do agree it's time to let someone else take over for awhile. Then we can judge who would be better.

I agree the reality of SGU changes the equation entirely. Young is going to be held to a higher standard of accountability.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 12:26 PM
I agree the reality of SGU changes the equation entirely. Young is going to be held to a higher standard of accountability.

I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.

yanna
June 17th, 2010, 01:46 PM
Given what has happened, how do you think the other military feel about Young now?

I'm pretty sure Greer still worships the ground he walks on. The others... I don't know. I had expected them to be horrified back when it became obvious that he marooned Rush but they were on his side. I don't know what it would take for them to figure out he's psycho.

I'd like Scott or Telford to relieve him of military command.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 02:11 PM
I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.

Instead of higher I really mean more realistic standard. Why, they are different shows?

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 02:18 PM
Why, they are different shows?

Because when equating Young's comptence in comparassion to other Stargate leader they need to have the same criteria to be a fair comparassion

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 02:27 PM
I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.

Sorry, that can't happen. SGU is a different type of show. TPTB have bent over backwards to tell us this, and their position holds a bit more weight then yours. Thus, based on the words of TPTB, we will judge this new series in the light they have given it to us in.

It's like if you were writing a comedy series. Then the sequel you wrote to that went a more somber, tragic route. Suddenly, the comedy hammers, injuries, situations are all seen in a different light. You can get away with things in comedy that you can't in a more dramatic series.

I will add that a number of people didn't want SG to go this route in the first place, and this is one of the reasons why; because the series will have to be judged differently, which would clash with earlier iterations. For the record, I was more ambivalent, and was waiting to see how it turned out before judging. I still haven't quite made up my mind.

Avenger
June 17th, 2010, 02:46 PM
While the tone and storytelling are vastly different than the previous shows, this one takes place in the same universe, meaning characters are subject to being judged by the same standards as the previous shows.

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 02:57 PM
While the tone and storytelling are vastly different than the previous shows, this one takes place in the same universe, meaning characters are subject to being judged by the same standards as the previous shows.

Try this as a mental exercise.

Remember "Irresistable"? That was a comedic SGA episode... even though it implied rape as Lucious basically brainwashed and took numerous women as his wives, and tried to take the SGA women as well. Sounds pretty disturbed to me, but it was okay because it was "funny."

Now imagine that plotline in SGU. They come across a guy who brainwashes James, Chloe, Wray, etc. and forces them to have sex with him. Not very funny anymore, is it?

Completely different tone demands a different emotional response.

Jack went crazy in "Window of Opportunity." Rush also went crazy in Darkness. Not quite the same tone, eh?

Try, just try, to imagine *any* of the SG-1 or SGA comedic episodes on SGU. I'll give you a cookie if you can honestly do that, because we all know they wouldn't work.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 03:02 PM
Try this as a mental exercise.

Remember "Irresistable"? That was a comedic SGA episode... even though it implied rape as Lucious basically brainwashed and took numerous women as his wives, and tried to take the SGA women as well. Sounds pretty disturbed to me, but it was okay because it was "funny."

Now imagine that plotline in SGU. They come across a guy who brainwashes James, Chloe, Wray, etc. and forces them to have sex with him. Not very funny anymore, is it?

Completely different tone demands a different emotional response.

Jack went crazy in "Window of Opportunity." Rush also went crazy in Darkness. Not quite the same tone, eh?

Try, just try, to imagine *any* of the SG-1 or SGA comedic episodes on SGU. I'll give you a cookie if you can honestly do that, because we all know they wouldn't work.

maybe it wasn't really funny the first time either?
If that's the measure of what we should differently about the series, this argument isn't working for me.

Avenger
June 17th, 2010, 03:02 PM
And there were plenty of people who found Lucious' actions despicable. A lighter tone doesn't make his actions any less awful.

PG15
June 17th, 2010, 04:39 PM
He tried an ambush and even bungled that, getting someone killed.


That wasn't Young's fault. It was just really bad luck that the radiation beam decided to strike the beam at that crucial moment.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 17th, 2010, 05:00 PM
That wasn't Young's fault. It was just really bad luck that the radiation beam decided to strike the beam at that crucial moment.

*snorks* Come on, we all know Young can control something as piddly as a silly little star :lol:
</sarcasm>

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 05:20 PM
maybe it wasn't really funny the first time either?
If that's the measure of what we should differently about the series, this argument isn't working for me.

Regardless of whether you found it funny or not, the goal of the episode was humor, so things have to be judged in that light. Just like SGU needs to be judged in the tone of it's own light.


That wasn't Young's fault. It was just really bad luck that the radiation beam decided to strike the beam at that crucial moment.

I'll partially give that to you, but he still could have gone through with it. He ordered people not to shoot. Once again, his bad call ended up getting someone killed with nothing to show for it. I mean, if you're gonna lose someone either way, at least take the action that's going to get you something.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 17th, 2010, 06:22 PM
jelgate,


Because when equating Young's comptence in comparassion to other Stargate leader they need to have the same criteria to be a fair comparassion

It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 06:25 PM
jelgate,



It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.
Then shouldn't he be given more leeway in his decision making choices then the harsher criticism in comparassion to past SG leaders?

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 17th, 2010, 06:27 PM
jelgate,


Then shouldn't he be given more leeway in his decision making choices then the harsher criticism in comparassion to past SG leaders?

Yes. That's my point. In the other thread I pointed out he's made mistakes but while other's may have avoided his mistakes it's unlikely they would have avoided any mistakes with this group of people.

Blackhole
June 17th, 2010, 06:29 PM
jelgate,

It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.

A fair statement. I think his command decisions have been good overall and only went downhill over the last two episodes.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 06:31 PM
jelgate,



Yes. That's my point. In the other thread I pointed out he's made mistakes but while other's may have avoided his mistakes it's unlikely they would have avoided any mistakes with this group of people.

Then we part ways because I was orginally trying to show the mistakes Young has made are not very different from the ones that past leaders of Stargate have made. Excluding Justice of course

Kaiphantom
June 17th, 2010, 07:39 PM
It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.

I'm sorry, but no. You're trying the argument "It's not his fault! It's because of everyone else!" and that won't work, because we are discussing purely *HIS* decisions. You or I could make much better decisions were we in his place, and you know it. Especially when his decisions go directly against military mindset training. It's like he doesn't recall his training at all, when the whole point of it is to drill it into recruits so thoroughly they don't forget.

It's like him forgetting how to fire a gun. It just plain shouldn't happen, and you'd rightly call him an idiot if he forgot how.

And jelgate, as we've proved, SGU is a different type of show than SGA and SG-1. Comparisons can't be made very well.

EllieVee
June 17th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Then shouldn't he be given more leeway in his decision making choices then the harsher criticism in comparassion to past SG leaders?

If anything he should be more accommodating than he is given the majority of people shouldn't be there. He shouldn't be playing the heavy.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 07:48 PM
If anything he should be more accommodating than he is given the majority of people shouldn't be there. He shouldn't be playing the heavy.

Thier is too much at stake and too much danger to be playing diplomat to make sure everyone is happy. Their just isn't time for that

EllieVee
June 17th, 2010, 08:08 PM
Thier is too much at stake and too much danger to be playing diplomat to make sure everyone is happy. Their just isn't time for that

Well, he hasn't been accommodating at all so perhaps he should find a middle ground.

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 08:17 PM
Well, he hasn't been accommodating at all so perhaps he should find a middle ground.

Purely subjective and fully opinionated.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 17th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Kai,


I'm sorry, but no. You're trying the argument "It's not his fault! It's because of everyone else!" and that won't work, because we are discussing purely *HIS* decisions. You or I could make much better decisions were we in his place, and you know it. Especially when his decisions go directly against military mindset training. It's like he doesn't recall his training at all, when the whole point of it is to drill it into recruits so thoroughly they don't forget.

It's like him forgetting how to fire a gun. It just plain shouldn't happen, and you'd rightly call him an idiot if he forgot how.

And jelgate, as we've proved, SGU is a different type of show than SGA and SG-1. Comparisons can't be made very well.

That's not what I'm saying. Young has clearly made mistakes. I'm saying in the prior incarnations they commanders had hand picked teams. Young doesn't have that luxury. As such while Young has made mistakes it's not as though he's working with the A-listers who've been training together for this particular mission for months or years. His administration is, of necessity, much more ad hoc than it would have been on SG-1 or SGA.

Young bears direct responsibility for his actions. However, those actions aren't the cause of all their troubles.

EllieVee
June 17th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Purely subjective and fully opinionated.

Well ... yes. Just the same as anyone else, although it's notable that Young himself said, Listen to me: the civilians aboard this ship didn't try to take over because they thought I was doing a bang-up job. I get that.'

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 08:49 PM
Well ... yes. Just the same as anyone else, although it's notable that Young himself said, Listen to me: the civilians aboard this ship didn't try to take over because they thought I was doing a bang-up job. I get that.'

I know its just thier is no room for debate when you go there. Its all up to interpertation that really isn't right or wrong

EllieVee
June 17th, 2010, 08:59 PM
I know its just thier is no room for debate when you go there. Its all up to interpertation that really isn't right or wrong

Well, Young said it, so what is there to interpret? That he doesn't really believe it?

jelgate
June 17th, 2010, 09:00 PM
Well, Young said it, so what is there to interpret? That he doesn't really believe it?

that the civiliians expect too much

EllieVee
June 17th, 2010, 10:58 PM
that the civiliians expect too much

What, that they expect to be spoken to with civility and respect?

Kelara
June 18th, 2010, 01:19 AM
Thier is too much at stake and too much danger to be playing diplomat to make sure everyone is happy. Their just isn't time for that

Time management 101: Sometimes, taking a little more time now might save you a lot of time and effort later.

Like explaning a little more to the civillians from them start might have saved everyone the time the whole mutiny thing took and avoided panicing incidents lots of times during the season (see "killing" Telford). Or devoting some manpower to ship repairs/exploration before you're actually in an immediate crisis situation (Eli on 24h surveillance, anyone? Party- stoning?).

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 05:28 AM
Kelara,


Time management 101: Sometimes, taking a little more time now might save you a lot of time and effort later.

Like explaning a little more to the civillians from them start might have saved everyone the time the whole mutiny thing took and avoided panicing incidents lots of times during the season (see "killing" Telford). Or devoting some manpower to ship repairs/exploration before you're actually in an immediate crisis situation (Eli on 24h surveillance, anyone? Party- stoning?).

I think that's a doggone good point. Young needs to bring Wray and Rush into his security cordon. If he would do that regularly he would have fewer issues when he does need to exclude Wray or Rush for some reason.

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 05:55 AM
Kelara,

I think that's a doggone good point. Young needs to bring Wray and Rush into his security cordon. If he would do that regularly he would have fewer issues when he does need to exclude Wray or Rush for some reason.

We don't know how much Young tells Rush and Wray routinely anyway. Not telling her about Rush's infiltration mission of the LA was a sensible precaution. If Wray or anyone else she talked to on the ship was also a mole for LA they could have informed Earth of what Rush was doing as soon as they were back on Earth (via the communication stones).

jelgate
June 18th, 2010, 06:02 AM
Time management 101: Sometimes, taking a little more time now might save you a lot of time and effort later.

Like explaning a little more to the civillians from them start might have saved everyone the time the whole mutiny thing took and avoided panicing incidents lots of times during the season (see "killing" Telford). Or devoting some manpower to ship repairs/exploration before you're actually in an immediate crisis situation (Eli on 24h surveillance, anyone? Party- stoning?).In an ideal or normal situation but the Destiny which is constantly having problems we are far from ideal or normal

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 06:07 AM
Blackhole,

Couldn't Young have told her then explained because of the possible mole issue he was issuing orders neither she nor anyone he didn't expressly authorize would have access to the stones?

garhkal
June 18th, 2010, 06:19 AM
Green...well, an attempt at green :)

I'm not sure if you're aware, but most of what you have quoted are the quotes of someone else. Can you please edit your post to either take my name out of those things that I haven't said or remove my name altogether? Thanks

I have a bad habbit of only keeping the first person i am quoting's name there..


We haven't been discussing the merits of Young's abiility. We've been in a court battle over the custody of Destiny. You are the prosecutor and I (amongst others) have been the defence.

A good prosecutor focuses on the issue at hand and likelihood to reoffend, while the defence will draw on what led a person to do what he did to create reasonable doubt. Whether it has been done or not is another matter, but it's been quite clear for a while that neither one of us is making much headway.

Objection your honor..:):)


Just came to a little observation with the thread title. It says Young needs to be removed of command. Now the thing is Young is currently in charge of bugger all. Neither is any of the other members of the crew in a position to declare “I’m in charge of Destiny now!” being either scattered round the ship or prisoners of the Alliance. If Young pulls himself together, and manages to lead an attack on the LA, then I believe he will have pulled himself together, realised his hesitancy was causing problems and adopted a different attitude. If he fails to take any further action though, then I think “removing him” from command will be unneeded. Someone is going to have to take charge of the counter attack against the LA, if Young is unable to then he will have effectively ceded command at that point anyway.

That is an interesting view. Young removing himself by inaction. But i doubt many of the mil (especially greer) will stop looking to him, SHOULD they survive, as he is their superior officer.


I don't like double standards. Each show should be equated on the same criteria.

Double standards exist in all walks of life..
But as for SGU (a show more about the darkness in life when just trying to survive, over exploratio) it is not the same as SGA/SG1 so to me it should not be based on the same criteria.


jelgate,
It's not a fair comparassion. Every other SG incarnation had hand picked teams specially selected to do the job they did. Young is stuck with everyone who came through the Gate to Destiny. Most of whom were not supposed to be on the expedition. As such the discord and difficulty he has faced should not be entirely attributed to his command abilities.

Very true. Young is stuck with whom he has on hand unlike SGA/SG1 was.. So that alone makes the playing field less level.

jelgate
June 18th, 2010, 06:35 AM
I

Double standards exist in all walks of life..
But as for SGU (a show more about the darkness in life when just trying to survive, over exploratio) it is not the same as SGA/SG1 so to me it should not be based on the same criteria..

I know they do but I won't judge of that level. Its not right

Kelara
June 18th, 2010, 07:32 AM
We don't know how much Young tells Rush and Wray routinely anyway. Not telling her about Rush's infiltration mission of the LA was a sensible precaution. If Wray or anyone else she talked to on the ship was also a mole for LA they could have informed Earth of what Rush was doing as soon as they were back on Earth (via the communication stones).

I'm not saying he should go and tell them every thought that crosses his mind (oh, please don't ;)). I was referring two the roughly 2,5 seconds it would have taken him to tell Wray he was not actually trying to murder Telford and Rush at the same time (people seem to randomly ignore that about the stone connection) but break the brainwashing. So that she could be devoting her time to something more important than raging against him. I just don't see any reason not to (or, for that matter have TJ on hand for the CPR...) because even if she was also a Lucian Alliance spy, what could she have done? The stoneroom is (hopefully) under guard and attacking him with bare hands... well...
Or explain certain decisions at least afterwards so that even the non- military trained has a chance at understanding them. And did he ever adress the leaving Rush staranded thing? Because that one is doing more than it's fair share of messing with the civillians minds, for sure. No matter if they like Rush or not ;).


In an ideal or normal situation but the Destiny which is constantly having problems we are far from ideal or normal

Actually, no. In a long term high stress situation it's even more useful (long term=higher payoff).
You can't tell me that in the few months they are on Destiny he never had time to clear the air with Wray or the other civillians. Not even after the mutiny, while they were going through the void? Come on. He can repeatedly make everyone take time for PT, so he has most surely the time to round them up for a frakking talk!

Kaiphantom
June 18th, 2010, 08:42 AM
That's not what I'm saying. Young has clearly made mistakes. I'm saying in the prior incarnations they commanders had hand picked teams. Young doesn't have that luxury. As such while Young has made mistakes it's not as though he's working with the A-listers who've been training together for this particular mission for months or years. His administration is, of necessity, much more ad hoc than it would have been on SG-1 or SGA.

How does that affect things? When he asked Brody to vent Telford's room, Brody did it. Young made a decision and the people under his command carried it out. When the LA were coming through the gate, Young told Brody to hold off, and he did. When he told Brody to do it later, Brody told him it was too late.

In none of these cases would changing the people under him have made any decision. Young is *solely* responsible. The people under his command make no difference.

To clarify, in SGA, the civilians were in charge, and there were still rumblings by various people about the situation. McKay and his scientists were clearly upset by the military ignoring them and brushing them aside. During the Siege, another Everett basically cut Weir and the civilians out, and Sheppard delivered a line to Everett, (paraphrased) "If you cut Weir out, you'll only alienate the people whose respect she's earned, which is everyone in this city, including me."

The people don't matter, as long as you take steps to earn their respect, something Young has been bad at... and one of the reasons he needs to be removed from command.


Young bears direct responsibility for his actions. However, those actions aren't the cause of all their troubles.

Yes, they are. Remind me again why the LA is still alive and why they have the ship? I seem to recall at the end of Incursion part 2, that it was Young's decisions, and not the fault of anyone else, that led to their presumed execution. *HE* didn't order the gate room vented. *HE* didn't order an assault afterwards to take them out. *HE* didn't order the ambush to kill Kiva and retake the ship. *HE* ordered everyone to surrender. *HE* ordered Scott and Greer out onto the hull.

Everyone else was perfectly willing to carry out those orders, something that would be unchanged if you took them out and put in an SG-1 or SGA crew instead.

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 12:44 PM
I'm not saying he should go and tell them every thought that crosses his mind (oh, please don't ;)). I was referring two the roughly 2,5 seconds it would have taken him to tell Wray he was not actually trying to murder Telford and Rush at the same time (people seem to randomly ignore that about the stone connection) but break the brainwashing. So that she could be devoting her time to something more important than raging against him. I just don't see any reason not to (or, for that matter have TJ on hand for the CPR...) because even if she was also a Lucian Alliance spy, what could she have done? The stoneroom is (hopefully) under guard and attacking him with bare hands... well...
Or explain certain decisions at least afterwards so that even the non- military trained has a chance at understanding them. And did he ever adress the leaving Rush staranded thing? Because that one is doing more than it's fair share of messing with the civillians minds, for sure. No matter if they like Rush or not ;).

I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.

Kaiphantom
June 18th, 2010, 12:49 PM
I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.

Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Blackhole,

Couldn't Young have told her then explained because of the possible mole issue he was issuing orders neither she nor anyone he didn't expressly authorize would have access to the stones?

THere was also the problem that Wray or someone she told could have talked to Telford about what they were doing. Stopping the rotations would have made alot of people unhappy. And the people on Earth are going to wonder what was going on that was so important that the rotations needed to be stopped. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put it together that Young's order may have involved Telford in some manner. I think it was far simpler and safer just not to tell Wray. She does strike me as a bit of a busy body too.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 18th, 2010, 12:58 PM
Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."Dammit, Kai, we're agreeing again! At least to the bolded part. I can safely go right back to disagreeing with your next point, so we are safe :D

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 01:03 PM
Not quite. He could have stepped away and whispered to them what he was planning, and told them to act natural to not let Telford in. The only real reason I can see, was that if he was wrong, or the upper brass determined that he had stepped over the line with obvious torture, than it would be his responsibility alone.

However, given that, I'd still tell the other two what I was going to do, and" sorry if you disagree on this, but I need to do it because if he is brainwashed, it's the only way to free him. I promise I'm not deliberately trying to kill him."

I don't think so. He doesn't want them to act natural but to act upset and terrified at what he is doing. A sudden change in their behavior could have alerted Telford that he was going to revive him right away. He also wasn't interested in having to debate with them if they still didn't agree or didn't understand. Besides, he is in command any explanation is a courtesy; he doesn't have to command by committee.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Blackhole,


I think it was necessary to keep both Scott and Wray in the dark to preserve the theater of the threat that Young was presenting to Telford. If he had told them then Telford would likely have picked up on their lack of fear and it would have undermined what he was attempting. Young probably knew this and did what was necessary. Afterward, I think it would have been good to have explained this to Scott rather than chastising him and Wray.

"Theater of threat"? Young put Telford into vacuum until his heart stopped without a defibrilator to bring him back (which is also not guaranteed to work). That wasn't theater.

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Blackhole,

"Theater of threat"? Young put Telford into vacuum until his heart stopped without a defibrilator to bring him back (which is also not guaranteed to work). That wasn't theater.

The theater was that if he didn't talk then he as going to kill him and keep him dead. Not immediately revive him. My assumption is the fear of death that Telford held was integral to breaking the brainwashing. With Teal'c it certainly was.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Blackhole,


The theater was that if he didn't talk then he as going to kill him and keep him dead. Not immediately revive him. My assumption is the fear of death that Telford held was integral to breaking the brainwashing. With Teal'c it certainly was.

There was a very real possiblity that Telford would not be revived. He would have felt real fear of death when his heart stopped whether the people around him were putting on a good act or not.

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Blackhole,

There was a very real possiblity that Telford would not be revived. He would have felt real fear of death when his heart stopped whether the people around him were putting on a good act or not.

Yes and he would have felt even more fear if he thought Young hated him and wanted him dead and was not just using a tactic to break his brainwashing. Thinking you are going to die and knowing you will be resuscitated immediately would elicit far different terror levels. Brainwashing is psychological and fear is psychological; it stands to reason that fear taken to its ultimate (death) is what breaks the brainwashing. Besides why are you arguing with me? Wray doesn't deserve to always be included in the loop anyway. It Young's call to tell her what he thinks she needs to know whether she like it or not.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 18th, 2010, 01:36 PM
Blackhole,


Yes and he would have felt even more fear if he thought Young hated him and wanted him dead and was not just using a tactic to break his brainwashing. Thinking you are going to die and knowing you will be resuscitated immediately would elicit far different terror levels. Brainwashing is psychological and fear is psychological; it stands to reason that fear taken to its ultimate (death) is what breaks the brainwashing. Besides why are you arguing with me? Wray doesn't deserve to always be included in the loop anyway. It Young's call to tell her what he thinks she needs to know whether she like it or not.

The attitude of the people around Telford, who was isolated anyway, wouldn't have made that much of an impact. He was dieing in reality regardless of whether or not Scott and Wray were relaxed about what was going on. As such I don't believe people attitude would have made a hairs breath of difference.

Blackhole
June 18th, 2010, 01:49 PM
Blackhole,

The attitude of the people around Telford, who was isolated anyway, wouldn't have made that much of an impact. He was dieing in reality regardless of whether or not Scott and Wray were relaxed about what was going on. As such I don't believe people attitude would have made a hairs breath of difference.

I think Telford may have possibly picked up on a change in behavior from Scott or Wray. Besides Wray could have thought Young was crazy about the death to cure brainwashing idea and demanded to Scott to stop him or have told Brody over the radio that Young is killing him for some ridiculous brainwashing reason and he needs to let the air back in. Telford could have overheard her yelling or Brody could have had second thoughts and interrupted the evacuation. At that critical juncture Young didn’t need to defend his decision; it would have been disruptive and either one of them may have undermined his action. Telling them gained little and potentially could have cost him everything. And with Greer present he didn’t need to concern himself that Scott or Wray could successfully physically intercede either. You are welcome to your opinion that he should have still told Wray and Scott I just don't see a reason to do so beforehand that offsets their potential to disrupt his treatment of Telford.

Lahela
June 18th, 2010, 11:20 PM
I just don't get why he didn't tell them *after he had locked the door and told Brody to vent the room*. Telford wasn't going to pick up on anything because he was locked in a room, dying, but Camile and Matt were standing there thinking they were witnessing murder. It would have made sense to tell them then.

Of course, then Camile wouldn't have got her "You've killed him" line and the whole scene would have been a great big letdown. Curse you, plot! ;)

jelgate
June 19th, 2010, 08:00 AM
I just don't get why he didn't tell them *after he had locked the door and told Brody to vent the room*. Telford wasn't going to pick up on anything because he was locked in a room, dying, but Camile and Matt were standing there thinking they were witnessing murder. It would have made sense to tell them then.

Of course, then Camile wouldn't have got her "You've killed him" line and the whole scene would have been a great big letdown. Curse you, plot! ;)Probably in case if it didn't work and Telford actually died.

Lahela
June 19th, 2010, 09:31 AM
Probably in case if it didn't work and Telford actually died.

That's a good point.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 19th, 2010, 09:34 AM
Probably in case if it didn't work and Telford actually died.

yeah, I think so too, in addition to keeping the number of people that knew about it to a minimum
that way if Telford did end up dying, it doesn't fall on anyone else's shoulders. I can completely see that action as being something in Young's makeup.

Blackhole
June 19th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Probably in case if it didn't work and Telford actually died.

How would telling or not telling Scott or Wray affect their culpability in either way? They had no say in Young's action. How would being let in on his plan in the last moment make them more guilty in any possible fashion? They tired to reason with Young and Scott actually made a physical move towards Greer and was stopped by him and Wray tried to convince Brody to stop. The only benefit I can see for culpability reasons would be for Young himself. It would show before Telford/Rush had died that he had a reason other than revenge or torture for evacuating the air.

I still think the only reason he didn't inform them was to preserve both of their fear of his actions and to have prevented them from saying something that might have clued Telford in that Young was bluffing and was going to immediately revive him. Or he simply wanted to prove a point that I am in command and you need to trust me; and even if you don't, you need to do what I tell you.

PG15
June 19th, 2010, 03:02 PM
I'll partially give that to you, but he still could have gone through with it. He ordered people not to shoot. Once again, his bad call ended up getting someone killed with nothing to show for it. I mean, if you're gonna lose someone either way, at least take the action that's going to get you something.

But as Kiva said, if she's harmed, then all the hostages are going to be killed.

EllieVee
June 19th, 2010, 04:56 PM
How would telling or not telling Scott or Wray affect their culpability in either way? They had no say in Young's action. How would being let in on his plan in the last moment make them more guilty in any possible fashion? They tired to reason with Young and Scott actually made a physical move towards Greer and was stopped by him and Wray tried to convince Brody to stop. The only benefit I can see for culpability reasons would be for Young himself. It would show before Telford/Rush had died that he had a reason other than revenge or torture for evacuating the air.

Greer would be culpable.


I still think the only reason he didn't inform them was to preserve both of their fear of his actions and to have prevented them from saying something that might have clued Telford in that Young was bluffing and was going to immediately revive him. Or he simply wanted to prove a point that I am in command and you need to trust me; and even if you don't, you need to do what I tell you.

Which fits with his previous actions.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 19th, 2010, 05:00 PM
...

Which fits with his previous actions.wouldn't that be true of any military commander though?

EllieVee
June 19th, 2010, 05:04 PM
wouldn't that be true of any military commander though?

No.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 19th, 2010, 05:08 PM
No.

*scratches head*
"I am in command and you need to trust me; and even if you don't, you need to do what I tell you."
Military commanders have to get soldiers to do all sorts of things that the soldiers don't trust or don't want to do. I don't really see it as being much different than the above statement, but meh, whatever.

EllieVee
June 19th, 2010, 05:11 PM
*scratches head*
"I am in command and you need to trust me; and even if you don't, you need to do what I tell you."
Military commanders have to get soldiers to do all sorts of things that the soldiers don't trust or don't want to do. I don't really see it as being much different than the above statement, but meh, whatever.

And when it's an illegal order a soldier doesn't have to do what his commander tells him and indeed, is legally obliged not to. Young could have avoided all the angst with one simple comment, particularly as he'd already brought Scott into his confidence earlier, something that a number of people posting in this thread seem to be ignoring.

garhkal
June 19th, 2010, 08:08 PM
Very true. For all they knew, what Young was doing was illegal..

Tuvok
June 19th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Very true. For all they knew, what Young was doing was illegal..

True , Young could have taken the time out to explain to them..

Still. Technically speaking his actions were not illegal which is the main point. As for his pychologically crumbeling that is really an assumption. I have seen no actual facts leading to this. Maybe its the wording that seems wrong?
None the less I see no proof of this or reason for his removal...

EllieVee
June 20th, 2010, 12:01 AM
True , Young could have taken the time out to explain to them..

Still. Technically speaking his actions were not illegal which is the main point. As for his pychologically crumbeling that is really an assumption. I have seen no actual facts leading to this. Maybe its the wording that seems wrong?
None the less I see no proof of this or reason for his removal...

Point regarding what happened with Telford, Scott didn't know that at the time. He didn't know Young had O'Neill's dubious blessing. What he saw was a prisoner being deprived of food and water and eventually the air in his compartment. Given Young had taken him into his confidence earlier, it was a (yet another) bad decision to leave Scott out of the loop.

In regards to the whole, this was simply one in a series of poor decisions from Young, who tends to lead with his emotions and fists (or as some have noted, head butts) rather than rationality and logic. The former has lead to people dying. Perhaps the latter would, too, but I think decisions would be more justifiable had he applied a little commonsense to them.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 20th, 2010, 06:09 AM
evilgrin,


*scratches head*
"I am in command and you need to trust me; and even if you don't, you need to do what I tell you."
Military commanders have to get soldiers to do all sorts of things that the soldiers don't trust or don't want to do. I don't really see it as being much different than the above statement, but meh, whatever.

The Nuremburg trials firmly established the principal that subordinates following what are illegal orders and who contribute to the harm of others by complying with illegal orders share culpability with the commander who gave those orders. Therefore, if Young were just spacing Telford without cause and Greer prevented Scott and Wray from stopping Young Greer shares culpability with Young for Telford's death.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 06:47 AM
evilgrin,



The Nuremburg trials firmly established the principal that subordinates following what are illegal orders and who contribute to the harm of others by complying with illegal orders share culpability with the commander who gave those orders. Therefore, if Young were just spacing Telford without cause and Greer prevented Scott and Wray from stopping Young Greer shares culpability with Young for Telford's death.

I'm fully aware of Nuremberg. In fact, it's because of this that I think that Young especially wanted to keep Scott's hands clean, as in "it's on me". Not telling Scott causes problems sure. But telling Scott, if something goes terribly wrong, makes Scott responsible as well. I think Young was protecting an officer below him.

Kaiphantom
June 20th, 2010, 09:34 AM
The comparison to Nuremburg doesn't really hold, because Brody, Scott, and Greer would still be liable. They were all following orders that would lead to the torture and death of another human being. Brody was ordered to vent the room, and Scott and Greer were ordered to stand guard and let it happen.

So they are already involved, and thus telling them could actually lower their culpability. They wouldn't be guilty, because they could argue that Young was trying a risky technique to un-brainwash Telford. Instead, they are actually more guilty now, for letting a man with rights be tortured.

Blackhole
June 20th, 2010, 10:09 AM
The comparison to Nuremburg doesn't really hold, because Brody, Scott, and Greer would still be liable. They were all following orders that would lead to the torture and death of another human being. Brody was ordered to vent the room, and Scott and Greer were ordered to stand guard and let it happen.

So they are already involved, and thus telling them could actually lower their culpability. They wouldn't be guilty, because they could argue that Young was trying a risky technique to un-brainwash Telford. Instead, they are actually more guilty now, for letting a man with rights be tortured.

I would agree with your interpretation the most. Although the whole illegal order train of thought is really moot imo. If Telford/Rush had died and everything went south having a 3 Star General in the room immediately before he vented it is as much a de facto sanctioning as is possible regardless of what O'Neill later said he had authorized. I don't think Young was particularly too worried about illegal orders. But if someone was held accountable I think it would be Young's head on the chopping block not anyone else's.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 10:16 AM
I would agree with your interpretation the most. Although the whole illegal order train of thought is really moot imo. If Telford/Rush had died and everything went south having a 3 Star General in the room immediately before he vented it is as much a de facto sanctioning as is possible regardless of what O'Neill later said he had authorized. I don't think Young was particularly too worried about illegal orders.

For me it's not so much the 'illegal orders' part of it for me that's driving his actions re: Scott as it is his wanting to shield Scott from it period. I tend to think that shielding Scott is the mistake here, rather than telling Scott for the sake of telling Scott. That boy's going to get his hands dirty at some point or he's never going to be able to do what he needs to do.

Pharaoh Atem
June 20th, 2010, 10:17 AM
and replaced with telford?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 10:20 AM
and replaced with telford?

I sincerely hope not!

Blackhole
June 20th, 2010, 10:36 AM
For me it's not so much the 'illegal orders' part of it for me that's driving his actions re: Scott as it is his wanting to shield Scott from it period. I tend to think that shielding Scott is the mistake here, rather than telling Scott for the sake of telling Scott. That boy's going to get his hands dirty at some point or he's never going to be able to do what he needs to do.

That may have been a consideration of Young's; although, his response to Scott when asked by him: "Why didn't you tell me..." wasn't particularly father like.

EllieVee
June 20th, 2010, 08:30 PM
I would agree with your interpretation the most. Although the whole illegal order train of thought is really moot imo. If Telford/Rush had died and everything went south having a 3 Star General in the room immediately before he vented it is as much a de facto sanctioning as is possible regardless of what O'Neill later said he had authorized. I don't think Young was particularly too worried about illegal orders. But if someone was held accountable I think it would be Young's head on the chopping block not anyone else's.

Whether the order came from O'Neill or Telford, as far as Scott was aware, he had the responsibility to question any order that was potentially illegal.

Azzers
June 20th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Whether the order came from O'Neill or Telford, as far as Scott was aware, he had the responsibility to question any order that was potentially illegal.

However, the very word "potentially" is the problem. At risk of going in circles here, if we accept that most soldiers are trained to fire an automatic weapon into a house that may result in collateral damage, we have to accept that soldiers are trained to execute orders that may have dubious consequences. Scott is beginning to question his CO, but much like life, it is possible that he is human and unsure if Young knows something he doesn't. It's that doubt that often allows questionable orders to be followed and in fact very natural.

Trust is a double edged sword. Without it, most military units would probably get killed pretty quickly due to indecisiveness. With it, some pretty dark stuff can tend to happen.

EllieVee
June 20th, 2010, 08:48 PM
Yes, but firing a gun in battle is different to watching someone being deprived of air for a reason that is unclear.

Tuvok
June 20th, 2010, 08:49 PM
Whether the order came from O'Neill or Telford, as far as Scott was aware, he had the responsibility to question any order that was potentially illegal.

Point.

I think that most people back Young, besides being Young fans. Is a question of competence. Scott to me lacks the right to ask questions about right and wrong the moment he deserted his post back in Faith, and defended said desertion with a mystical belief that Young was wrong to leave the planet because they were meant to stay there.

Should Scott question an illiegal order. Yup.

Should Young have advised Scott that he had been given the all clear to go Black? ie Black Operational .'

Yup.

Was he obligated to take whiny Scott aside to make him feel better and ease his concerns while the clock was ticking.

Nope.

Was he obliged to have an open debate with Wray regarding his methods while the clock was ticking.

Um..yeah about that one I'm fifty on. It could have eased friction on her part, but seriously with the LA knocking on the door did he have time to go into detail etc etc and her demanding different tactics.

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 08:23 AM
But as Kiva said, if she's harmed, then all the hostages are going to be killed.

Young had to realize that would be a likely scenario when you put together the plans for the ambush and planned to go through with it. Like I said, someone killed with nothing to show for it. If he had made the tough call and gone through with it, sure, the other hostages *might* have died, but it would be over and everyone else would be safe.

Just another instance when he couldn't go through with a tough call. When the time came, he crumbled.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 10:59 AM
I disagree. His mission at the time was to rescue the hostages, and thus doing anything that would result in their massacre would be going against that mission and would thus count as a failure. He still thinks they are rescue-able while, had Young did what you did based on your rationale (hostages may die, it'd be over, everyone'd be safe - all assumptions, by the way; how do we know it'd be that easy?), it would seem like he's put them in the "acceptable losses" bin. That's not who Young is, and if I were a hostage, I'd be glad of that.

You really think Young would've been hailed as a hero if he went through with it and all the hostages died? People would just say he used his gun before he used his brain or something. He can't win.

Not on these forums, anyway.

As far as "Young had to realize" - let me just say that I place very little value on those arguments now that we're looking back with hindsight. It's far too easy to think something is obvious and should be foreseen when it's already happened, since whether it's obvious or not is highly subjective. For example, I can say that Young didn't go through with the plan because he foresaw the LA pulling some other surprise out of their sleeves after they kill the hostages and thus riding themselves of their only bargaining chip - after all, why would they do that if, afterward, Young could just kill them all by venting the atmosphere in the gateroom? Nah, they must have a contingency plan, maybe.

I also place very little value in the "because of what he did, this horrible thing happened" argument when its value rests on the "Young had to realize" argument (i.e. he should've realized that someone would be killed if he didn't go through with it), because it's meaningless to where the character was at the time when he made that decision.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 11:13 AM
I disagree. His mission at the time was to rescue the hostages, and thus doing anything that would result in their massacre would be going against that mission and would thus count as a failure. He still thinks they are rescue-able while, had Young did what you did based on your rationale (hostages may die, it'd be over, everyone'd be safe - all assumptions, by the way; how do we know it'd be that easy?), it would seem like he's put them in the "acceptable losses" bin. That's not who Young is, and if I were a hostage, I'd be glad of that.I think that a lot of people that are making these types of arguments are doing so from a belief in what THEY would do, knowing everything that we, the viewer, knows. I don't think it's done so much from a "what would YOUNG do", knowing what he knows (which is a lot less than what we the viewer sees).


You really think Young would've been hailed as a hero if he went through with it and all the hostages died? People would just say he used his gun before he used his brain or something. He can't win.

Not on these forums, anyway. There's a lot of truth there. I don't think it would have mattered what he would have done; he'd be condemned in any case.


As far as "Young had to realize" - let me just say that I place very little value on those arguments now that we're looking back with hindsight. It's far too easy to think something is obvious and should be foreseen when it's already happened, since whether it's obvious or not is highly subjective. For example, I can say that Young didn't go through with the plan because he foresaw the LA pulling some other surprise out of their sleeves after they kill the hostages and thus riding themselves of their only bargaining chip - after all, why would they do that if, afterward, Young could just kill them all by venting the atmosphere in the gateroom? Nah, they must have a contingency plan, maybe.The "Young had to realize" rests on the "I would have realized" idea, and we're a)not Young and b) we have access to all the information about what is going on. Young doesn't have that information.


I also place very little value in the "because of what he did, this horrible thing happened" argument when its value rests on the "Young had to realize" argument (i.e. he should've realized that someone would be killed if he didn't go through with it), because it's meaningless to where the character was at the time when he made that decision.Horrible things happen and I think it's just easier to blame Young than accept that horrible things happen. It is tied to the "Young had to realize" which relies on the fact that we, the viewer, have the luxury of a) seeing everything at once and b) not having Young's psychological makeup where losing people isn't acceptable.

We can be cavalier with lives because they're not ours to care about, they're not on our conscience. We can be cavalier because we see everything at once and so, knowing more, we can say if something will work or not. Would I have done things differently? Sure, we all would do things according to our own information at the time and what makes us tick.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
June 21st, 2010, 12:15 PM
and replaced with telford?


I sincerely hope not!

I think if Telford survies he would be good as the 'leader' of the Destiny witch could be likley as he was supposed lead expedition in first and O'neill would think he is better than Young. That would lead to Young being able act like O'neill to Telfords Hammand and could bring 'Drama' as they are both the same rank. Telford would work well with Wray and I think Young would work with him as his eariler actions were as a result of brainwashing wasn't it.


I disagree. His mission at the time was to rescue the hostages, and thus doing anything that would result in their massacre would be going against that mission and would thus count as a failure. He still thinks they are rescue-able while, had Young did what you did based on your rationale (hostages may die, it'd be over, everyone'd be safe - all assumptions, by the way; how do we know it'd be that easy?), it would seem like he's put them in the "acceptable losses" bin. That's not who Young is, and if I were a hostage, I'd be glad of that.

You really think Young would've been hailed as a hero if he went through with it and all the hostages died? People would just say he used his gun before he used his brain or something. He can't win.

Not on these forums, anyway.

As far as "Young had to realize" - let me just say that I place very little value on those arguments now that we're looking back with hindsight. It's far too easy to think something is obvious and should be foreseen when it's already happened, since whether it's obvious or not is highly subjective. For example, I can say that Young didn't go through with the plan because he foresaw the LA pulling some other surprise out of their sleeves after they kill the hostages and thus riding themselves of their only bargaining chip - after all, why would they do that if, afterward, Young could just kill them all by venting the atmosphere in the gateroom? Nah, they must have a contingency plan, maybe.

I also place very little value in the "because of what he did, this horrible thing happened" argument when its value rests on the "Young had to realize" argument (i.e. he should've realized that someone would be killed if he didn't go through with it), because it's meaningless to where the character was at the time when he made that decision.

But the undeniable fact is if Young had vented the gateroom as soon as the LA arrived only Telford was at risk of dying.

PG15
June 21st, 2010, 12:25 PM
But the undeniable fact is if Young had vented the gateroom as soon as the LA arrived only Telford was at risk of dying.

Indeed.

I'm not disagreeing with the argument that Young can't make hard decisions - he obviously has a bee in his bonnet with regards to losing people - I just have a problem with the interpretations of that specific decision (the failed ambush). Basically, I put forward that even the best commander would've done what Young did given the circumstances, because it was the right thing to do for that specific mission, which was to rescue the hostages AND take out the LA, not just the latter.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 12:27 PM
True , Young could have taken the time out to explain to them..

Still. Technically speaking his actions were not illegal which is the main point. As for his pychologically crumbeling that is really an assumption. I have seen no actual facts leading to this. Maybe its the wording that seems wrong?
None the less I see no proof of this or reason for his removal...

No facts, how about:


1. He was livid when he stormed into the command room and yelled and screamed at Park and others and tried to assault Rush. I can understand being upset over the death of one of his men but do you consider this emotional outburst appropriate to a commander in a crisis situation. A psychologically stable commander isn’t going to loose it in the middle of a crisis situation. They are supposed to stay clam and set an example and not go to pieces even if it was only for a short time.

The transcript follows to refresh your memory.

CONTROL INTERFACE ROOM. Young storms in and glares at Rush, Brody, Dale Volker and Lisa Park.

YOUNG: What the hell just happened?

VOLKER: We still don't know.

PARK: We're just getting systems back online, then maybe we can analyse ...

YOUNG (furiously): Screw analyse. Fix it!

BRODY: We've gotta know what's broken first.

YOUNG (loudly, sternly): Do it now.

(The others stare at him, waiting for him to calm down. He turns away, breathing rapidly and fighting his fury. After a few seconds, he turns back to them, still visibly upset.)

YOUNG: Rivers is dead.

PARK (appalled): What?!

(Brody looks down, shocked. Rush also lowers his gaze.)

RUSH (calmly): Well, it was gonna be someone.

(Young looks at him for a moment, then starts to step towards him but soon breaks into a run and tries to throw himself at him. Brody and Volker grab him and try to hold him back, knowing that he'll beat Rush to a pulp if he gets his hands on him.)

VOLKER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

(Rush looks at Young, unafraid.)

RUSH: Or would you prefer it was Chloe, or Eli? Lieutenant Johansen, perhaps?

(Young stills, glaring at him. The other men release him. Rush points at him angrily.)

RUSH: Don't bloody tell me you weren't thinking the same thing.

(Young steps towards him again. Brody grabs his jacket just in case. Young points angrily back at Rush.)

YOUNG: I want you to figure out what's wrong with this ship and fix it. Fix it now.

(Tetchily Rush slams his notebook onto the console. Young turns his gaze to Brody, who lifts his hands clear of his jacket and steps away. Unnoticed by any of the men, Lisa is still taking in the news of death of Rivers, who was one of her many sources of “reading material”. Young glowers at Brody and Volker for a moment, then leaves the room. Rush watches him go.)

I used the word hysterical for a moment to describe his outburst. The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it? When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst and attempted assault by Young before in a command crisis situation? Are these the actions of a psychologically stable commander?


2. Every scene in a TV show is there for a reason. Why were the scenes where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); and where Young’s decision to not evacuate the gate room is criticized by General O’Neil and he threatens him with replacement and asks: “Are you up for this, Everett?”; included in the episode if not to cast doubt on his judgment and psychological state of mind? How else can this question be interpreted?

The transcript for the O’Neill scene follows to refresh your memory:

YOUNG: I need to speak to General O'Neill.

Not long afterwards, Young is sitting opposite Jack in his office.

O'NEILL: Second-guessing a decision is a waste of time.

(Young looks down, embarrassed. Jack stares at him sternly.)

O'NEILL: I'm not there ... but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I should be.

YOUNG: I-I can't speak to that, sir.

O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.

YOUNG: Yes, sir. At the time, I believed that venting the Gateroom would kill both Doctor Rush and Colonel Telford. They deserved a chance.

O'NEILL: We lost two 302 pilots sent to stop the attack.

YOUNG: I'm sorry.

O'NEILL: Colonel Carter knew she'd lose her ship if she tried to save them, but it was the right decision.

YOUNG (in a whisper): Yes, sir.

(He lowers his head again, sighing.)

O'NEILL: Are you up for this, Everett?

(Young raises his head and gets to his feet.)

YOUNG: Yes, sir.

O'NEILL: Because somebody'll take your place if you're not.

YOUNG: I'm not gonna let anybody take that ship, sir.

O'NEILL: Then get your ass back there.

(Nodding, Young leaves the room.)

You don’t think it is possible that we are witnessing the deterioration of Young portrayed by the show? Imo his excessive and uncontrolled emotional outburst to Park and the others and his attempt to attack Rush; coupled with the inclusion of the scenes where Sam has to depart to save her ship and sacrifices the two 302 pilots (to show she can make the ultimate decision); and where General O’Neill’s criticizes his decision and asks “Are you up for this, Everett?”; are compelling evidence that he is having a psychological breakdown and that it is an intended part of the show's storyline.

What alternative explanation do you offer to explain his emotional outburst and attempted assault of Rush and the dramatic reason for the inclusion of the two aforementioned scenes?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 12:34 PM
...
I used the word hysterical for a moment to describe his outburst. The definition of hysterical is: marked by excessive or uncontrollable emotion. You don’t think the exchange with Park and the others and attempting to attack Rush wasn’t clearly marked by excessive or uncontrolled emotion on Young’s part? In my mind Young was very angry and frustrated and reacted excessively and irrationally to Park and the others. How would you describe it? When have you seen another unprovoked scene of emotional outburst and attempted assault by Young before in a command crisis situation? Are these the actions of a psychologically stable commander?...No.
I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 12:51 PM
No.
I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.

As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave. And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes. Every minute of a TV show is very valuable and limited. Why did the writers feel it necessary to include both of these scenes? How does it further the story?

tomstone
June 21st, 2010, 12:53 PM
No.
I don't see it as either excessive nor uncontrolled. I don't see it as hysteria no matter how often the word gets brought up.

Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 01:15 PM
As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave. And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes. Every minute of a TV show is very valuable and limited. Why did the writers feel it necessary to include both of these scenes? How does it further the story?I've addressed it several times, Blackstone, so don;t be all disingenuous now :)
You`ll also note, by use of the RED TEXT, that I was specifically targeting your use of the word hysterical, so, to add to being disingenuous, you`re now moving the goalposts. Yelling at the scientists? He was pissed off and didn't want a bunch of excuses for why someone can't do something - he wanted them to DO IT. Being pissed at Rush for saying - yet again - something callous? That's not hysterical either. Young's got his problems, no argument there, but you are going to near-ridiculous lengths to assert that he's hysterical. Your OWN DEFINITION of hysteria - excessive or uncontrolled emotion? By your own definition, it doesn't fit, as he wasn't excessive (it didn't go on past a yell and he wasn't shrieking or crying or having a panic attack, or you, know, like the one occassion where we HAVE seen hysteria in this show, falling unconscious) nor uncontrolled (he had no problem going on calmly to talk about the pulsar and had no problem at all not yelling when Park told him not to yell.)


Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.No one is the right person, and yes, even Young says he's one of those 'not the right people'. What's your point? Please feel free to point out any actual ignorance there :)

KEK
June 21st, 2010, 02:25 PM
Telford is the one who was meant to lead the expedition. So at least one of them was meant to be there, now at least.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 04:48 PM
I've addressed it several times, Blackstone, so don;t be all disingenuous now :)
You`ll also note, by use of the RED TEXT, that I was specifically targeting your use of the word hysterical, so, to add to being disingenuous, you`re now moving the goalposts. Yelling at the scientists? He was pissed off and didn't want a bunch of excuses for why someone can't do something - he wanted them to DO IT. Being pissed at Rush for saying - yet again - something callous? That's not hysterical either. Young's got his problems, no argument there, but you are going to near-ridiculous lengths to assert that he's hysterical. Your OWN DEFINITION of hysteria - excessive or uncontrolled emotion? By your own definition, it doesn't fit, as he wasn't excessive (it didn't go on past a yell and he wasn't shrieking or crying or having a panic attack, or you, know, like the one occassion where we HAVE seen hysteria in this show, falling unconscious) nor uncontrolled (he had no problem going on calmly to talk about the pulsar and had no problem at all not yelling when Park told him not to yell.)

Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush reiterated the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier - the invasion should have been over. All subsequent deaths with the exception of Telford would have been unnecessary and preventable. The truth of O'Neill's and now Rush's statement stung Young and he reacted violently. The same type of reaction in the command center, now without provocation, was what had led to his beating of Telford and his stranding of Rush on the planet.

Young's inability to sacrifice a man under his command coupled with his fits of uncontrolled rage and anger paint a very sad picture of a very troubled solider with the best of intentions undergoing progressive psychological deterioration. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. It just means he still has some control. When is uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack (particularly when viewed in context with all of his past violence) aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous by downplaying his reaction it is you.

Young out of compassion hesitated to immediately vent the gate room. This understandable but tactically catastrophic initial mistake let LA gain a foothold and led to the loss of the ship. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery and a history of violent reactions including attempted murder; gross errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) leading to the loss of the ship aren’t sufficient enough evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state and command ability for you then I don’t know what action ever will be?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 05:16 PM
Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.

First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen :)
I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world :) You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

Disengenuous would be making this statement:
And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.

Kaiphantom
June 21st, 2010, 05:30 PM
Telford is the one who was meant to lead the expedition. So at least one of them was meant to be there, now at least.

You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 05:48 PM
You know, that's an interesting point. If Telford does survive, will Young turn command over to him? I think that's a big reason why Telford will die; the writers need a good reason to keep Young in charge.

Because regardless of how good or bad Young is, it's clear that quite a few people think things could be better (both in the fandom and from the Destiny crew). What is the harm in letting someone like Wray assume command for awhile, and seeing if she is any better or worse? That's an answer I'd like to hear from the Young supporters.

That is indeed an interesting question about Telford, and I do agree that something writerish is going to happen to him, for that reason.

As for Wray - Wray has been in command. Once during "Justice" and it left her so rattled that her hands shook. Sort of again in "Divided" during the coup, although that was extremely short lived. I believe that there is a time when Wray could handle being a leader. I just don't think that time is now. Huge swipes have been taken at Young's leadership here, but if Wray had been in charge during this current event, I believe that she would have handed over the ship to Kiva (with no goal to get it back) in the hopes that she could simply talk and the woman would go along. I actually have hope that she'll step up at some point and be leadership material, for real, instead of just because her position at IOA grants her that right.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 05:48 PM
First, I'd have to believe that he was displaying excessive or uncontrolled emotion, which I don't, so asking that I supply you with a word with the exact same meaning as a way for you to make your point? Yeah, that's not going to happen :)
I do understand that you seem to be emotionally invested in hanging onto this in some form and hey, feel free, just don't be surprised if other people not only see it differently, but can present how and why it's seen differently.

In what world do I live in? Why, the same one a great number of people live in. A world where occasionally people will get pissed off and yell. A world where, if you choose to make callous remarks about the deaths of people we know, you just might be on the losing side of a brawl. There are a hell of a lot of people in my world :) You've also used the terms uncalled for. When people who also have their own lives in the balance can't seem to get past "analyze" to "fix it", or when people make callous remarks about the murdered, I'd say that's called for. It's also not disingenuous.

Disengenuous would be making this statement:
And you still haven’t addressed a possible dramatic reason for the inclusion of both scenes.
when I have addressed your points in several places in this thread. You may not like how I answered your question but it is something else altogether to state that I haven't at all. Ergo - disingenuous.

I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 05:53 PM
I am no more emotionally invested than you are. As I have said before you and I obviously have very different ideas of how a competent and psychologically stable commander are likely and expected to behave.

apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that? :)

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 06:06 PM
apparently, so why don't we agree to disagree and leave it at that? :)

I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 06:30 PM
I am more than happy to do so. You were the one that engaged my reply to Tuvok and restarted this latest round...

*eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already :D

EllieVee
June 21st, 2010, 07:20 PM
Fine, I understand you don’t like the word hysterical. Then choose another word that means excessive or uncontrollable emotion and replace it. Young was way out of line yelling and screaming at Park and the others. How can they possibly be expected to fix a problem if they don’t know what was causing it? For you to suggest they were making excuses is just plain unreasonable and ridiculous. And even if Rush said something callous doesn’t give Young the right to try to beat him up. I don’t know what military world you think exists but assaulting people doesn’t ever fly - period. Rush was angry and tactlessly (but correctly) pointed out that Young’s error in tactical judgment is what led to the man’s death. Rush echoed the same conclusion that General O’Neill (O'NEILL: This should be done, Colonel - over.) had made earlier. The invasion should have been over. Young didn’t like the truth of Rush’s statement and reacted violently. It was the same reaction that resulted in his stranding of Rush on the planet; this time with significantly less provocation. The fact that his outburst was short lived and he was able to pull himself out of it when called on it doesn’t change anything. In what world do you live in - where uncalled for yelling and screaming and an attempted violent attack aren’t evidence of excessive or uncontrolled emotion? If anyone is being disingenuous about his reaction it is you. Both O’Neill and Rush thought Young made an error in judgment and that the attack should have been over. If an uncontrolled and excessive emotional outburst, attempted battery, errors in judgment (confirmed by O’Neill and Rush) and the loss of the ship aren’t evidence of deterioration in Young’s psychological state then I don’t know what ever could be.

It's also worth noting that Young's fall back position is to say 'You can do this' or 'We can fix this' before having any information about the situation. In Darkness, for example (my aside in blue):


RUSH (beginning to pace around the room): I refuse to be held responsible for this situation!

YOUNG: Nobody's blaming you. [Ironically, Young had actually accused Rush of doing something to cause the power failure a few minutes earlier]

RUSH: I ran out of time!

YOUNG: We can fix this.

(By now, Rush is almost apoplectic with rage.)

RUSH: "Fix this"! What, you think just because you give the order that it's possible? There is no more power! Destiny saved every last ounce of its reserves for life support - and I've seen it happening. I've seen it being sequestered away from me. I tried to ... I tried to stop it. I tried to stop it but I couldn't!

Just one example.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 07:48 PM
*eyeroll* for crying out loud, give it a rest already :D

No reason to be testy. I think you are forgetting that this is just a TV show. Young is a fictional character and any analysis of his behavior has to be done objectively.

Blackhole
June 21st, 2010, 07:54 PM
Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

Young has been this way ever since they got to Destiny. May it be that he tries to kill the lead cientist or fails to make the right decision eventhough he had no problem with doing the same thing before.(Letting Telford sufficate)

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.

I agree.

JustAnotherVoice
June 21st, 2010, 11:20 PM
How much longer will this thread continue :o

If it manages to keep going until the start of S2, I'll be very impressed.

Kelara
June 22nd, 2010, 01:03 AM
Okay, that just sounds ignorant. May I ask you to explain as to why Young ist rational and under control?

[...]

The writers obviously want to show that what Young said in the beginning "This are the wrong People in the wrong place" doesnt just apply for the civilians. Young himself is also portrayed as the wrong person for the Job. Question is if the writers can find a way to turn his character around without making him the Hero.
No one is the right person, and yes, even Young says he's one of those 'not the right people'. What's your point? Please feel free to point out any actual ignorance there :)

My guess would be ignorance in so far as to cling to Young in command, no matter how good his decisions turn out to be. Because even if he happened to be the textbook example for "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" (and I'm not convinced he even got the "good intentions" part going most of the time), military will be judged by the results. I totally don't follow the reasoning that Young makes all his decisions with best intentions and catastrophic results therefore don't matter (Stargate does have quite a bit of history with that line of agument, it's still not realistic, even if this show insists on calling itself that). Excusing all of the fails with bad luck also doesn't work for me because either he has chronic bad luck and therefore is a danger to people around him anyway ;), or he relies on luck in the first place. Which is not particularly sound, strategically speaking.

Or ignorance to the possibility that this character is actually written to show psychological deteoriation (though I admit it might be hard to spot, given the low starting value of mental stability I see in that character) and will drop/ be dropped from command. So he's maybe going to be the first Stargate commander portrayed as incompetent. On top of that he may be the first Stargate commander failing in his job, so what? You can accept that people have flaws and are bad at the job they are supposed to do, but failing on the job due to these flaws is unthinkable? Why?

FallenAngelII
June 25th, 2010, 11:40 AM
It's been clear to me for quite some time now that Young is not fit to lead. Sure, he tried to atone for his mistakes after the whole coup fiasco, but he is not fit for command of the Destiny.

The second he wavered in ordering the venting of the gate room, he sealed his fate, in my eyes. It'll be a miracle if he manages to keep his command after the resolution of the incursion. After all, his indecision and misguided attempt at "saving everyone" resulted in countless deaths on our side.

For all of his talk of the "Greater good", that philosophy apparently flies out the window when he has to sacrifice one of his own best friends (or, if you want to be generous, Rush and/or Telford and Rush, as a way to atone for the attempt at Rush's life).

"Sure, for the greater good, we must be willing to sacrifice the lives of individuals for the survival of the expedition... unless he's one of my oldest friends! Because then screw that plan!"

Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Richard (Woolsey), George (S. Hammond), Henry ("Hank" Landry) would all have known what to do: Sacrifice the life of the one for the safety of the many. In fact, many of them have already had to make that choice themselves and they made the correct one (sacrificing the one for the many).

No matter what happens, unless they manage to go back in time or find a revival machine, the blood of the many casualties on Earth's side will be partially on Young's hands.

magictrick
June 25th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.

tomstone
June 25th, 2010, 07:20 PM
Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.I agree. Nobody is saying that they hate the character, just the decisions he made. I for one would love to see how Young has to overcome his problems and get back to command.

After all he will have to answer to all aboard why all of this had to happen and the sad truth is that it happened by making the wrong decision at the wrong time. People wont trust in his choices anymore as they used to, just as Scoot earlier asked him why he didn`t just say that killing somebody releases them from the mindwashing.

In a sidenote, that would have been much more intelligent and nervsaving then letting the people go nuts on you. My feeling is that he didn`t even know that it would work.

FallenAngelII
June 26th, 2010, 03:28 AM
Young is great. The perfect example of how imperfect humans are. Makes him so much more interesting to watch.
Yes, but if you were actually on the expedition, you wouldn't be saying that. Especially not if you're one of the people who got hurt and/or died by his decision to not immediately vent the gate room because he wanted to save one of his friends.

He's a trained soldier, he's supposed to be able make the hard decisions. It's in situations like those that Rush's philosophy of the Greater Good shines through as the only viable option. Look at what his attempt at benevolence got him.

rushy
July 4th, 2010, 12:00 PM
Maybe. He did break here. But if it's he or Wray, my money is on he.

Gatefan1976
July 4th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Maybe. He did break here. But if it's he or Wray, my money is on he.

Can I ask, why would anyone even consider Wray at all? Not only has she lead a failed (and pretty pathetic) coup, she has displyed no command ability whatsoever. Let's face it, whilst she may work for the IOA, she is in HR, not exactly an area known for actually producing results. Of course however, that statement is very much my opinion based on the times I've had to deal with HR departments in my own life.

Sami_
July 4th, 2010, 07:11 PM
It's been clear to me for quite some time now that Young is not fit to lead. Sure, he tried to atone for his mistakes after the whole coup fiasco, but he is not fit for command of the Destiny.

The second he wavered in ordering the venting of the gate room, he sealed his fate, in my eyes. It'll be a miracle if he manages to keep his command after the resolution of the incursion. After all, his indecision and misguided attempt at "saving everyone" resulted in countless deaths on our side.

For all of his talk of the "Greater good", that philosophy apparently flies out the window when he has to sacrifice one of his own best friends (or, if you want to be generous, Rush and/or Telford and Rush, as a way to atone for the attempt at Rush's life).

"Sure, for the greater good, we must be willing to sacrifice the lives of individuals for the survival of the expedition... unless he's one of my oldest friends! Because then screw that plan!"

Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Richard (Woolsey), George (S. Hammond), Henry ("Hank" Landry) would all have known what to do: Sacrifice the life of the one for the safety of the many. In fact, many of them have already had to make that choice themselves and they made the correct one (sacrificing the one for the many).

No matter what happens, unless they manage to go back in time or find a revival machine, the blood of the many casualties on Earth's side will be partially on Young's hands.

Do we really have to go through this again?

He believed that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom - a perfectly reasonable assumption.

They are onboard a spaceship which currently has zero strategic value, is no threat to anyone and they don't have much food or water or medical supplies - if anyone onboard Destiny or at the SGC was thinking straight they would have talked to the LA instead of attacking them, let them board Destiny peacefully taking the much needed supplies with them.

Saying Jack, Elizabeth, Sam, Woolsey, Hammond and Landry would have made the right call and always have in the past is just ridiculous. Hammond has left the gate open when weapon fire has been coming through which I believe he stated at the time he should not have done and I believe that all the others would have done the exact same thing - for all he knew a nuke (or worse) was on its way through.

Kaiphantom
July 5th, 2010, 07:15 AM
Do we really have to go through this again?

He believed that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom - a perfectly reasonable assumption.

I agree, do we really have to go through this again?

Because believing they couldn't get out of the gateroom was monumentally stupid for a military commander. You have to make the assumption that they were armed, and most likely would have carried explosives, with which they could blow open the doors.

So please stop repeating the falsehood that it was a reasonable assumption they couldn't get out; it wasn't. It was just another stupid mistake on Young's part, in the comedy of errors of his that led to the LA having the upper hand at the end of the season. Heh, the only reason they have the ship is because Young was in charge. If Jack, or Sam, or Hammond, or Landry had been in charge up there, the LA wouldn't have had a chance.

PG15
July 5th, 2010, 10:19 AM
I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?

Also, Young did assume the LA were armed (mentioned in the show) and that they could get out of the Gateroom, otherwise there wouldn't have been soldiers posted around it. It seems like it was a combination of a momentary lapse of judgement due to the unexpected arrival of Telford/Rush and the skills of the LA forces - and even if he assumed they had explosives, maybe he thought it'd take them time to set it up and to get all of their forces out of the blast radius, who knows. Young made a mistake, yes, but it wasn't just random stupidity; there was an "emotional moment" involved - and yes, I know that's bad for a commander, but it's more understandable and relatable IMHO than just stupidity, especially for someone who suddenly jumped from commanding a backwater research base to a mysterious rust bucket of a spaceship that sees action (of one form or another) much more frequently.

Young's emotional undercurrent has been a part of his character flaw the whole season. This is just another manifestation of it. Frankly I'm glad TPTB are keeping him consistent.

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 5th, 2010, 12:18 PM
...
Young's emotional undercurrent has been a part of his character flaw the whole season. This is just another manifestation of it. Frankly I'm glad TPTB are keeping him consistent.Yes, this, exactly. It would be very easy and convenient to have his personal flaws forgotten about so he could be all superheroey for the episode and then go back, perhaps, to flaws afterward. It shows a lot of guts on the part of the writers to not take that easy route and to have his actions reflect those flaws at a time like this, because in a whole lot of shows, we'd never see those flaws. I really respect the writers for doing that and not only with Young, but with all the characters.

Kermee
July 5th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Yes, this, exactly. It would be very easy and convenient to have his personal flaws forgotten about so he could be all superheroey for the episode and then go back, perhaps, to flaws afterward. It shows a lot of guts on the part of the writers to not take that easy route and to have his actions reflect those flaws at a time like this, because in a whole lot of shows, we'd never see those flaws. I really respect the writers for doing that and not only with Young, but with all the characters.

:indeed:
I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 5th, 2010, 03:40 PM
:indeed:
I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!

I can just imagine a gagillion torture threads with lots of pearl-clutching all around :D
bring on the dark, dark, darkety dark dark dark! Louis Ferreira does a pretty good serial killer....that's all I'm sayin'

jelgate
July 5th, 2010, 03:50 PM
:indeed:
I wonder what the Young "haters" are going to say when our boy goes "dark" next season?
A "cold, dark, bloodthirsty" Young, that wants revenge!
Season 2 can't come soon enough for me!
Does it matter at this point? At this stage thier are just going to be people who hate Young regardless of his actions. The same could also be said to some who like him. Its the way of fandom

Kaiphantom
July 5th, 2010, 03:59 PM
I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?

To be honest, I read the spoilers when they aired in the Ukraine, haha. So I knew about the keys. But when watching it, I was still wondering why he wasn't venting the atmosphere sooner; from the spoilers, I thought he had a good reason, but I couldn't see it when I watched. And your response here is a bit out of place, because as a military commander, Young should have been trained in proper tactics and assumption about enemy forces (that is, you assume the enemy can do something until proven they can't). It should have been drilled into him in wargames to expect the enemy to carry explosives. Our soldiers do; grenades, C-4, and flashbangs, among others.

In short, if you or I can think of it, then a military person, not even a commander, should have thought of it already, especially concerning weapons of war.


Also, Young did assume the LA were armed (mentioned in the show) and that they could get out of the Gateroom, otherwise there wouldn't have been soldiers posted around it.

Ah, but your words contradict JM. He's repeated it often enough, that "They were trapped in the gateroom, and thus Young lost nothing by waiting and attempting to negotiate; how could he have foreseen the keys?" But if they had explosives, then waiting *does* mean he loses something; the initiative and the chance to end the threat immediately. Hell, even if they didn't have explosives or keys, waiting is still bad, because you give up the initiative and give your enemy time to come up with a counter-measure.

About as bad as the Dr. evil plan of "I'm going to leave you here in a situation you can easily escape, and not watch you die, and trust everything will work out just fine."

Dumb. As. Hell. How bad guys have been defeated because they didn't kill the heroes straight off, and instead kept them alive? What you call an "emtional undercurrent as part of his character flaw" most people would call stupidity of the first degree. I mean, like "putting your hand on a hot stove" kind of stupid. That's just painful to watch.

But the main point I was responding to, was that it was a perfectly valid assumption to make that the LA couldn't get out of the gateroom. It wasn't.

EllieVee
July 5th, 2010, 04:42 PM
I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?

I wasn't yelling but yes, I assumed they would be able to get out of the gateroom. Explosives were obvious. Young should have anticipated it.

PG15
July 5th, 2010, 05:21 PM
What you call an "emtional undercurrent as part of his character flaw" most people would call stupidity of the first degree. I mean, like "putting your hand on a hot stove" kind of stupid. That's just painful to watch.


But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).

tomstone
July 5th, 2010, 05:23 PM
I'm curious: did you think this before the LA got out of the gateroom when the show was airing? Were you literally/figuratively yelling at the TV that they should hurry up and vent the air because the LA are probably carrying explosives or something?

I actually did that. The assumption that they are trapped was stupid. They had Telfords intel and knew exactly what they are up against Terretorywise. It was a dumb decision which followed a downward spiral that did put everyone at risk.

Kaiphantom
July 5th, 2010, 07:46 PM
But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).

This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

Tuvok
July 6th, 2010, 03:15 AM
This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

A whole series of them?

Perhaps.

By himself.

No.

Should he have abandoned Rush on the planet?

No.

Then again Rush should'nt have set him up for murder.

Should he have vented the Gateroom?

Debatable, could have costed Telford life. Also intelligence was limited and was unknown that they could open doors.

Should have surrendered the ship to Kiva?

In the old days his science guy would have come up with a plan to prevent this. Didn't have one and didn't have a choice . Surrender to Kiva with a chance to get the ship back later, a gamble with a chance. Or not, and definately die. Low chance vs No chance, as a leader he did what he had to do.

Should he be replaced?

Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

Sami_
July 6th, 2010, 07:11 AM
To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 6th, 2010, 07:21 AM
But haven't there been moments in all of our lives when some bit of emotional bias stops us from thinking logically? I mean, call it stupidity, emotional undercurrent, whatever; it happens to all of us, no?

It wasn't painful for me to watch because I understood that Young's hang up on not losing people prevented him from seeing the logical course of action, and it's something that I can easily relate to (well, not the deciding-the-fate-of-people thing, but the emotional-hang-up thing).I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.


...
Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.Amen

PG15
July 6th, 2010, 10:12 AM
^Remind me to green you for that. ;)


This wasn't one mistake. This was a whole series of them. Yes, all of us screw-up, but not so repeatedly. And if you agree that he has, then you should agree with the subject of this thread... because he screwed up so badly and so often, he should step down from command. Call it a sort of vacation to ease the stress, if you will. Perhaps once he's recuperated somewhat, he can try commanding again.

Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again. ;)

Seriously though, I can partly agree with the thread subject. Feel free to take a look at my first post in the thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/75468-Young-has-psychologically-crumbled-and-needs-be-removed-from-command.?p=11605550&viewfull=1#post11605550) if you haven't already; it outlines what I think TPTB should have Young do.


Also understand that it's not just screwing up, but screwing up something he should be well-versed in. It would be like a programmer insisting on being allowed to program alone, despite the fact that his last program was a medical one and caused the death of people, because he had been coding in a hellhole for weeks straight and was very mentally stressed. I'm sure you'd agree such a person would need to step back.

Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.

Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.

Kaiphantom
July 6th, 2010, 11:39 AM
Flawed , yes. Broken nope. Replaced , definately not.

Kay. You're part of the ship now, on your knees as Kiva's troops put a gun to your head, and you're in that situation because of Young. Put yourself in that position, and tell me honestly if you'd be willing to follow that man again. Or whether you'd go "Oops, you screwed up. It happens. Oh well!"

It's easy to say "yeah, it was just a minor oopsie" when you're safe in your computer chair at home. If your life was on the line, I think you'd react a bit differently.


To the people banging on about explosives may I ask what evidence you have that explosives would be effective in opening the doors, its hardly a stretch that ancients can construct blast proof doors.

It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.


Of course we screw up repeatedly; unless we stop screwing up at some age and never do it again. ;)

Your doctor screws up repeatedly, and you're scheduled to go in for him to perform an operation on you. Of course, you'd go in, never mind the fact that the past twelve patients have learned they've had medical instruments left inside them after the operation. Yes, this *does* happen, occasionally, but not several times in a row. I think you'd request a different doctor if you found out your current one has a habit of this.


Indeed, but I feel that that's different from what you were talking about before.

Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.

Did you forget 1+1? If I told you I forgot the answer, you'd probably think me fairly stupid.

Sami_
July 6th, 2010, 12:01 PM
It's called science. *Anything* can be destroyed if you hit it hard enough. And logic; you don't build the innards of your ship out of stuff that you can't get open. Or Atlantis. A mighty city... but fragile without the shield. And we haven't come up across a piece of ancient tech that we couldn't destroy (once we got past the shields). The hardest substance we know of, Trinium, isn't indestructable, either. Carter was able to cut a hole in it, and if you can cut a hole, you can blast one.

Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.

PG15
July 6th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Not really. Young is a military man, and not just that, a military commander. He's gone through heavy training, like someone trained to play the piano would know how to play some music from sheet music put in front him. We train him, over and over, to anticipate situations like this: Enemy coming, assume they are well-armed and plan accordingly. Young didn't, which very much makes me doubt he went through military training at all. It's about someone who should know better about a very basic part of an area where he was trained to have expertise in.


But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 6th, 2010, 12:32 PM
...
Young is not "fundamentally" stupid - he's just working in an environment that robs him of some of his sense-making.As are most of the rest of the crew. Everyone is out of their element.


But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

I'm not really considering JM's explanation at this point since it's not canon.I'm going with 2, that he had the plan in mind and changed it when he saw what he thought was Rush come through the gate. That's not fundamentally stupid, it's fundamentally decent.

Kaiphantom
July 6th, 2010, 03:52 PM
Sure you can, but if they need an explosion so big that the blast kills anyone in the room then they can't do it. Even the crappy blast doors in the SGC needed 2 blocks of C4 and they had to go down the corridor and around a corner to avoid the blast - doors aboard Destiny are thicker and are sure to be made out of something more durable.

It would certainly not be unrealistic that they are too tough to blast through without killing yourself in the process.

There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.


But see, this is different from what you stated one post before. There are two possibilities here:

1. Young never thought they'd bring explosive, which seems to be your view.
2. Young did think they'd bring explosives, but momentarily dismissed it when Telford/Rush came through as his problem with losing people reared its head, which is my view, and the view you seemingly expressed in the previous post (i.e. he's too stressed and thus his decisions have been compromised).

What did you think I said before? Because from my view, I haven't deviated much. At most, tried to explain things from another angle.

What it looks like to me, is #1, which is what I call BS on. Young should have assumed that any hostile force would come through the gate fully armed, because that's what he would do, that's what he was trained to do, and thus what he should expect them to do. Part of a solider's arsenal is explosives; to assume that an enemy wouldn't come through with explosives is sheer stupidity. Or given that it's the LA use a vast mix of tech, they could have come through with staff weapons which might have been able to breach the doors.

The point is he should have assumed they'd come through with enough weaponry.

If they didn't, then good; we got lucky. But a military commander should always assume the worst and plan accordingly; he should be putting himself in the enemy's position to think about what tactics would be effective. And he knows that Telford has given them intel on Destiny, so it's highly likely they would have been prepared for locked doors.

But yeah, I tossed JM's explanation a long time ago. Maybe that's what they intended, but how it came out in the show was different. Sorta similar to the Chloe-kidnapped-by-aliens thing.

Sami_
July 6th, 2010, 05:05 PM
There is plenty of room in the gate room to place explosives on the doors and get far enough back. But you're only considering C4 or grenades; what about staff weapons? What about any other high-tech weaponry the LA may have come across, that allows them to make their own doors? True, it might not have been enough to breach the doors, but you don't know that, and thus it's stupid to pretend that you're position is impenetrable. The Goa'uld thought they were invincible, and look where that arrogance got them.

And I think you'd agree the Goa'uld were stupid.

I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.

Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.

As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.

EllieVee
July 6th, 2010, 05:15 PM
I think that across a wide range of shows we've come to expect that when the lead faces some sort of trouble, whatever baggage has been nurtured in the character is supposed to get put down and the lead does something all heroey. Something that's not really in character, as they've been written, but something that seems to play directly to the fans watching. Later on, the lead can go on and fall into the same track with the same baggage. I think what's got so many people PO'd about this is that the writers haven't fallen into that and are playing Young's baggage right through the superheroey bit. His flaws don't get put aside for the sake of convenience. I still have to say that I respect the hell out of the writers for doing that, and doing it in a way that shows, during the time, and not after.

Amen

I don't expect Young to be 'all heroey' but I do expect competence. A reliance on an overly emotional temper does not replace competence in a military commander.

Aurora24
July 6th, 2010, 07:48 PM
I agree with Young's decision not to vent the air out of the gate room when he saw that Telford (or Rush depending on who Young thought was in control of Telford's body when he came through the gate). I was kinda surprised in the episode when Jack was telling Young he should have followed the original plan to stop the incursion. I couldn't see any leader sacrificing a valued member of their team if they believed other options were available.

That being said, the fact that Young seems to have difficulty controlling his emotions in stressful situations is a problem. I liked Young at the beginning of the show, but I've been liking him a lot less since he stranded Rush on that planet. Regardless of the fact that Rush framed him for murder, abandoning him on a planet in the middle of nowhere was not the way to handle things. I don't really know what the ideal way to handle a situation like that would be, but Young's reaction was a little too extreme. The in this episode he starts freaking out and yelling at the scientists when they are trying to figure out how to deal with the problem of the ship being hit by gamma radiation. I understand that it's an extremely stressful situation, but in the middle of something like that the military leader should try to remain a bit calmer. Another thing that bothered me was that Young was checking in with Jack in the middle of the incursion. In my opinion, when your ship is being taken over it's a little late to call home for advice on how to deal with things. That is another thing that makes me doubt Young's ability to be an effective leader.

Kaiphantom
July 6th, 2010, 07:53 PM
I dare say military commanders aren't required or expected to only make decisions that will insure their position is impenetrable, in Young's estimation the chance of them being able to open the doors was small and worth the risk in order to save the life of a fellow soldier, I think we can disregard the possibility of them having door openers entering into any commanders decision making, so with just the possibility of them blasting open the doors I think its a good decision.

Assuming the risk is small is still stupid. As is relying on people covering the doors, because he also had NO idea how many LA people would come through. What if 200+ had come through? That's enough to throw bodies at the corridors until you get through.

Stupid.

Or what if they had flashbangs or Goa'uld grenades that could easily take out the people in the corridor? Oh wait, that they had the former and that's exactly what happen. Relying on that is.. what's the word?

Stupid.

Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?


Like others have pointed out, he didn't think his position was impenetrable as you suggest since he stationed men at the doors outside the gateroom. It was a gamble yes, just like when Hammond or Weir or any other commander sends their teams on a mission but by no means are they reckless or stupid for doing so.

Wrong. JM told us that Young made his decisions because he thought he would lose nothing. That's as close to thinking your position is impenetrable as you're going to get. And if you want to say that JM is wrong, then you have to accept that Young's actions were wrong. It's a shaky position to be in.

Here's how a trained commander would lay things out:

"Okay, chances are good we have enemy coming. Locking the doors and preparing to vent the atmosphere is good. We can't delay too long in doing that, though, because we have to assume they are coming in heavily armed, and will blow the doors as soon as they can, which negates my plan; after all, that's what I would do if I were in the enemy commander's position. So waiting is suicide and monumentally stupid. I can probably delay only a minute from when they start coming in. I'll have people int he hallways outside, but if they blow the doors and have more men than us, or stuff like flashbangs or goa'uld grenades, they won't be able to hold long. Best nip this in the bud ASAP."

LA starts coming through, and they see Telford.

"Uh oh, if I do it now, I could end up killing Rush and Telford. I'll take 30 seconds to disconnect the stones and then vent the atmosphere, that way only Telford is at risk. We should be able to revive him after, but he's a soldier, and if he is back to normal, he'll understand. The life of 1 soldier vs. the lives of everyone on this ship, soldier and civilian."


As for the goa'uld, not that its relevant but I don't think they ever thought they were invincible or were as arrogant as they seemed (at the very least not tactically), they were playing the role of gods in order to enslave the Jaffa - the arrogance was just part of the role.

You're seriously going to argue that the Goa'uld weren't arrogant about their power? I mean, I can pull up examples starting from the end of season 1, where Apophis attacked Earth with two ships. Hell, even Apophis planned to use Sokar's arrogance against him. I don't think this is an argument you really want to make when it was pointed out many times in the show by the characters themselves, about how arrogant the Goa'uld were.

EllieVee
July 6th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?

I think it's more likely that he used to be competent rather than having someone in a powerful position giving him a free pass. In previous episodes, we've heard comments like Jack saying that Young was his choice for expedition leader but Young said no, his heart wasn't in it (or somesuch). Then Rush said Young didn't want to make the hard decisions. Pure speculation but perhaps something happened to make him psychologically crumble, as the thread title states. Presumably he passed whatever last psych eval he had - if he had one - but certainly, he's not fit for command now.

Sami_
July 6th, 2010, 09:03 PM
Assuming the risk is small is still stupid. As is relying on people covering the doors, because he also had NO idea how many LA people would come through. What if 200+ had come through? That's enough to throw bodies at the corridors until you get through.

Stupid.

Or what if they had flashbangs or Goa'uld grenades that could easily take out the people in the corridor? Oh wait, that they had the former and that's exactly what happen. Relying on that is.. what's the word?

Stupid.

Militarily incompetent of the highest degree. Most privates and lieutenants have more tactical sense than that. How the hell did Young make colonel? Is his daddy a big shot?



Wrong. JM told us that Young made his decisions because he thought he would lose nothing. That's as close to thinking your position is impenetrable as you're going to get. And if you want to say that JM is wrong, then you have to accept that Young's actions were wrong. It's a shaky position to be in.

Here's how a trained commander would lay things out:

"Okay, chances are good we have enemy coming. Locking the doors and preparing to vent the atmosphere is good. We can't delay too long in doing that, though, because we have to assume they are coming in heavily armed, and will blow the doors as soon as they can, which negates my plan; after all, that's what I would do if I were in the enemy commander's position. So waiting is suicide and monumentally stupid. I can probably delay only a minute from when they start coming in. I'll have people int he hallways outside, but if they blow the doors and have more men than us, or stuff like flashbangs or goa'uld grenades, they won't be able to hold long. Best nip this in the bud ASAP."

LA starts coming through, and they see Telford.

"Uh oh, if I do it now, I could end up killing Rush and Telford. I'll take 30 seconds to disconnect the stones and then vent the atmosphere, that way only Telford is at risk. We should be able to revive him after, but he's a soldier, and if he is back to normal, he'll understand. The life of 1 soldier vs. the lives of everyone on this ship, soldier and civilian."



You're seriously going to argue that the Goa'uld weren't arrogant about their power? I mean, I can pull up examples starting from the end of season 1, where Apophis attacked Earth with two ships. Hell, even Apophis planned to use Sokar's arrogance against him. I don't think this is an argument you really want to make when it was pointed out many times in the show by the characters themselves, about how arrogant the Goa'uld were.

We'll have to agree to disagree, aside from the Deus ex machina door openers I don't think they are getting out of the gateroom and I don't see how he could have considered his position impenetrable if he positioned troops outside the door as backup, it just doesn't add up.

Again, I don't think the goa'uld were arrogant as much as acting arrogant which is defined as:

"making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; "

Well they were the dominant race in the galaxy, ruled nearly the entire galaxy and were worshipped by millions of humans and Jaffa - so they weren't making claims or being pretensious, they were acting as I'd expect supreme galactic rulers to act. Their one arrogant/pretensious claim was that they were gods which as I said was an act that they knew was a lie.

If not for another Deus ex machina moment when SG-1 found the coords for one of the ha'tak how would earth have stopped even 1 ha'tak and why was it arrogant?

PG15
July 7th, 2010, 02:07 AM
Good idea Sami_; it feels like we're going in circles now.

Agree to disagree, Kaiphantom? I still maintain that Young is a competent soldier/leader most of the time while allowing his emotions to cloud his judgement at other times, thus making him unfit for command if there were anyone better around (Telford perhaps). Whether he's incompetent, stupid, or emotionally compromised (my view), he's still my favourite character at the moment (though Rush and Eli are very close behind) and I love seeing him trying to persevere despite his many flaws. You may disagree, but such is life.

Loheat
July 7th, 2010, 09:13 AM
I'd be a lot more forgiving of Young if what he did didnt come across as stupid. I understand not venting the gateroom, and I admired his "we're not losing anyone" stance, but I think completely surrendering is simply inexcusable.

This is coming from a Young fan who wishes his fall from grace would have been executed better

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 7th, 2010, 10:07 AM
I don't believe complete surrender was the plan though, as both Rush and Brody were in the process of retaking control before something went wacky. If anything, it was the illusion of surrender, which allowed for getting Scott and Greer outside in order to fix the shields. If they hadn't been willing to at least have the illusion of surrender, then none of that would have gone into place, and they would all be dead.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
July 7th, 2010, 10:47 AM
I think it was the plan to ask the LA to surrender before venting the gate room, otherwise why didn't Young vent the gate room before LA arrived thus killing them as soon as they stepped through the gate. Isn't it or shouldn't it be millitry protacal to ask your enemy to surrender when possible before killing them. Plus we had the element of surprise as the LA would have expected to enter the gate room the doors open and earth millitry confused and easy to subdue so Young has hardly been incompetant, just unlucky.

xxxevilgrinxxx
July 7th, 2010, 10:52 AM
I think it was the plan to ask the LA to surrender before venting the gate room, otherwise why didn't Young vent the gate room before LA arrived thus killing them as soon as they stepped through the gate. Isn't it or shouldn't it be millitry protacal to ask your enemy to surrender when possible before killing them. Plus we had the element of surprise as the LA would have expected to enter the gate room the doors open and earth millitry confused and easy to subdue so Young has hardly been incompetant, just unlucky.I think they've all had a run of really rotten luck :(

Kaiphantom
July 7th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Tell that to JM.

[quote]If not for another Deus ex machina moment when SG-1 found the coords for one of the ha'tak how would earth have stopped even 1 ha'tak and why was it arrogant?

This could get off topic, but the coords weren't a deus ex machina. There was an entire episode earlier that explained exactly how DJ got those coordinates. As for pops, it was arrogance to assume the Earth couldn't do anything. Hell, it was arrogant to assume that anything could go wrong; remember, Bra'tac planned to start a mini-rebellion by attacking pop's gliders in his son's name. And it caused his mission to fail. On the other side of the coin, there was that military dude who arrogantly explained how they'd deal with pops using naquada nukes. "Goa'uld Busters" I think they were called.


Agree to disagree, Kaiphantom? I still maintain that Young is a competent soldier/leader most of the time while allowing his emotions to cloud his judgement at other times, thus making him unfit for command if there were anyone better around (Telford perhaps). Whether he's incompetent, stupid, or emotionally compromised (my view), he's still my favourite character at the moment (though Rush and Eli are very close behind) and I love seeing him trying to persevere despite his many flaws. You may disagree, but such is life.

It never felt like circles to me. In any debate, if I am unable to get my point across, I keep trying different tacks. By all means, if you don't feel like discussing it anymore, then feel free to say you're done. I'll keep debating as long as someone else wants to.

I just don't honestly see how you can take an "math expert" seriously if he forgets how to add "1+1." It's such a simple, basic part of his knowledge base, that you'd seriously question his credentials. At one time, he may have been competent, but as many people have noted, he isn't anymore. This isn't about whether he was competent at all, just that he is not *now.*

We humans always seek rationalizations and justifications for our behavior, and that of other people we support. We want to explain away the flaws, so they aren't really responsible. It's what I call the "It's still good!" phenomenom.

*cooked turkey gets loose*
Homer: "It's just a little mobile, it's still good! It's still good!'
*cooked turkey rolls through the street as Bart and Homer chase it*
Homer: "It's just a little dirty, it's still good, it's still good!
*turkey ends up in the river*
Homer: "It's just a little wet, it's still good, it's still good!"
*turkey ends up in a dam, then the pressure shoots off it into the horizon*
Homer: 'It's just a little airborne, it's still good! It's still-"
Bart: "It's gone, Homer."
Homer: *sadly* "I know..."

So, would it be "Young just made a little mistake, he's still good! He's still good!" ?

Edit: Gonna add this question; Since Young basically got the ship taken over and people about to die... to all the people who disagree with the subject of this thread, exactly what would Young have to do for you to go "Yeah, he needs to be removed"? What more could he do, to make the situation even worse, that would make you finally say, "That's too much, he's screwed up too much, and too badly; he needs to go"?

Because I can't see it getting much worse than them all about to die.

Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble
July 7th, 2010, 01:39 PM
Tell that to JM.

This could get off topic, but the coords weren't a deus ex machina. There was an entire episode earlier that explained exactly how DJ got those coordinates. As for pops, it was arrogance to assume the Earth couldn't do anything. Hell, it was arrogant to assume that anything could go wrong; remember, Bra'tac planned to start a mini-rebellion by attacking pop's gliders in his son's name. And it caused his mission to fail. On the other side of the coin, there was that military dude who arrogantly explained how they'd deal with pops using naquada nukes. "Goa'uld Busters" I think they were called.



It never felt like circles to me. In any debate, if I am unable to get my point across, I keep trying different tacks. By all means, if you don't feel like discussing it anymore, then feel free to say you're done. I'll keep debating as long as someone else wants to.

I just don't honestly see how you can take an "math expert" seriously if he forgets how to add "1+1." It's such a simple, basic part of his knowledge base, that you'd seriously question his credentials. At one time, he may have been competent, but as many people have noted, he isn't anymore. This isn't about whether he was competent at all, just that he is not *now.*

We humans always seek rationalizations and justifications for our behavior, and that of other people we support. We want to explain away the flaws, so they aren't really responsible. It's what I call the "It's still good!" phenomenom.

*cooked turkey gets loose*
Homer: "It's just a little mobile, it's still good! It's still good!'
*cooked turkey rolls through the street as Bart and Homer chase it*
Homer: "It's just a little dirty, it's still good, it's still good!
*turkey ends up in the river*
Homer: "It's just a little wet, it's still good, it's still good!"
*turkey ends up in a dam, then the pressure shoots off it into the horizon*
Homer: 'It's just a little airborne, it's still good! It's still-"
Bart: "It's gone, Homer."
Homer: *sadly* "I know..."

So, would it be "Young just made a little mistake, he's still good! He's still good!" ?

Edit: Gonna add this question; Since Young basically got the ship taken over and people about to die... to all the people who disagree with the subject of this thread, exactly what would Young have to do for you to go "Yeah, he needs to be removed"? What more could he do, to make the situation even worse, that would make you finally say, "That's too much, he's screwed up too much, and too badly; he needs to go"?

Because I can't see it getting much worse than them all about to die.

Greened for Simpsons quote.

EllieVee
July 7th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Tell that to JM.

JM as in Joe Mallozzi, I take it. To be fair, I think when illogical moments and errors are pointed out to him, he makes something up on the spot. That Rush had a spare communication stone in his pocket is totally illogical yet that's his stance.


Edit: Gonna add this question; Since Young basically got the ship taken over and people about to die... to all the people who disagree with the subject of this thread, exactly what would Young have to do for you to go "Yeah, he needs to be removed"? What more could he do, to make the situation even worse, that would make you finally say, "That's too much, he's screwed up too much, and too badly; he needs to go"?

Because I can't see it getting much worse than them all about to die.

Ah, I know this one. It's the excuse that the anti-Rush mob used when Young beat Rush unconscious and left him to die. It goes, 'But Rush didn't die so that's okay.' The excuse here is 'It wasn't the plan for everyone to die so that's okay.'

PG15
July 7th, 2010, 04:14 PM
That Rush had a spare communication stone in his pocket is totally illogical yet that's his stance.

And the show's stance.


RUSH: We need to talk.

YOUNG: I was thinking the same thing.

RUSH: Were you, now?

YOUNG: The communication stones.

RUSH (shrugging): What about them?

YOUNG: You took one. It's the only explanation. You were the first to open the box; you kept one for yourself.

RUSH: And why would I do that?

YOUNG: Maybe you thought it was some kind of insurance policy. I don't know. You probably thought it wasn't safe to keep in your room, especially after that whole incident with Spencer's gun, so you kept one with you.

(Rush has his looking-at-the-floor guilty expression on.)

YOUNG: That's how the aliens got hold of one and that's how I wound up on that ship.

(Still looking at the floor, Rush shrugs as nonchalantly as he can.)

RUSH: Oh well.

YOUNG: Doesn't sound like a denial, Rush.

EllieVee
July 7th, 2010, 04:23 PM
And the show's stance.

Rush never denies any of Young's ridiculous accusations. It wouldn't do any good if he did anyway given Young's paranoia.

PG15
July 7th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Or...he just took one, just in case.

I really don't see the problem with that. I'd probably do it too.

EllieVee
July 7th, 2010, 05:11 PM
Or...he just took one, just in case.

I really don't see the problem with that. I'd probably do it too.

Except that all the stone were accounted for in the case in the episode before Rush got back. If by chance there had been a spare one in Rush's pocket, Rush wouldn't have needed to use one of them in Air. Had there been any stones missing, someone somewhere would have said something. There were five stones in the case, all of them were there.

PG15
July 7th, 2010, 05:56 PM
Maybe Rush hid one since the beginning, when he went off alone to contact Earth. After all, he was the one who announced to everyone that there were five stones in the box - maybe there was originally six stones and he took one before anyone knew the stones were brought onboard.

EllieVee
July 7th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Maybe Rush hid one since the beginning, when he went off alone to contact Earth. After all, he was the one who announced to everyone that there were five stones in the box - maybe there was originally six stones and he took one before anyone knew the stones were brought onboard.

No, there are five slots in the box. All five were there. If there were more than five, Young would have known from the beginning one was missing. Given that he knew Rush had used the stones, why, if there were one missing from the beginning, didn't he make the accusation sooner? It's not like he holds back when it comes to flinging out accusations. It doesn't make sense he would do so for this.

jelgate
July 7th, 2010, 08:47 PM
No, there are five slots in the box. All five were there. If there were more than five, Young would have known from the beginning one was missing. Given that he knew Rush had used the stones, why, if there were one missing from the beginning, didn't he make the accusation sooner? It's not like he holds back when it comes to flinging out accusations. It doesn't make sense he would do so for this.

Unless a stone was missing before the Icarus base attack

EllieVee
July 7th, 2010, 09:31 PM
Unless a stone was missing before the Icarus base attack

And again, five slots, five stones in them. This is not a difficult concept. If there were other stones, Young would not have held back in his accusations. It would have been out of character for him to do so.