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View Full Version : Greer had the shot!



fmbchris
June 12th, 2010, 06:15 PM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

Pharaoh Atem
June 12th, 2010, 06:16 PM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

young is making a lot of mstakes during this situation

Infinite-Possibilities
June 12th, 2010, 06:18 PM
Then all the hostages would have died. Probably including TJ.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 06:18 PM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

And have all those hostages die. Doesn't seem like a smart idea

Kanten
June 12th, 2010, 06:19 PM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

And they would have been in the exact same scenario that they are now.

JustAnotherVoice
June 12th, 2010, 06:20 PM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

In all fairness, a gunfight then could have killed Young, TJ, Greer in addition to whoever stormed the room after the first shot was fired. Sometimes, discretion really is the better part of valour.

the fifth man
June 12th, 2010, 06:21 PM
And they would have been in the exact same scenario that they are now.

Most likely, yes.

Commander Zelix
June 12th, 2010, 06:24 PM
Then all the hostages would have died. Probably including TJ.
No way, since the hostages are their bargaining ship, but probably a couple. It wouldn't have accomplished anything for our crew.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 07:33 PM
No way, since the hostages are their bargaining ship, but probably a couple. It wouldn't have accomplished anything for our crew.

Kiva said the hostages were ordered to be killed if she was killed on the exchange

General Jumper One
June 12th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Greer had the shot to take out Kiva, probably themselves, and all of the hostages, so yeah Young did the right thing

Commander Zelix
June 12th, 2010, 08:07 PM
Kiva said the hostages were ordered to be killed if she was killed on the exchange
She did say that.

Replicator Todd
June 12th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Kiva is too awesome to be shot...dead :p

fmbchris
June 12th, 2010, 10:28 PM
Ok! so yo all think the Air Force would have come up on the short end of that fight.. I only saw one gun drawn on the LA side. Who has the better training? The US Air Force or a bunch of x slaves?

Demerzel
June 12th, 2010, 10:33 PM
Ok! so yo all think the Air Force would have come up on the short end of that fight.. I only saw one gun drawn on the LA side. Who has the better training? The US Air Force or a bunch of x slaves?

You can't underestimate the Lucian Alliance's training. The Air Force people likely have a more technical training, but the LA guys are soldiers without mercy or morals retraining them which makes them a much much bigger threat. I don't think Kiva chose the newest of her men to join her on Destiny, it's pretty safe to think she'd have competent people with her for such an important mission.

Demerzel
June 12th, 2010, 10:34 PM
And by the way, had Greer fired a single shot, it's likely that nobody in that corridor would have survived and all the hostages in the gate room would have been history. Had he fired, the whole situation would have gone to hell and it would have been a bloodbath. Good thing Young didn't tell him to fire.

fmbchris
June 12th, 2010, 11:14 PM
I dissagree! Greer could have killed 4 of them, Kiva first! look at the footage again and tell me that would have been the case. Only one gun was drawn.. his!

Avenger
June 12th, 2010, 11:21 PM
Which was a pistol. He would have taken his shot, targeted the next and the LA would have been spraying full auto down the corridor.

Demerzel
June 12th, 2010, 11:27 PM
Which was a pistol. He would have taken his shot, targeted the next and the LA would have been spraying full auto down the corridor.

And Kiva just might have shot TJ right there out of pure spite.

Replicator Todd
June 13th, 2010, 12:13 AM
Ok! so yo all think the Air Force would have come up on the short end of that fight.. I only saw one gun drawn on the LA side. Who has the better training? The US Air Force or a bunch of x slaves?

Screw the Air Force! :p ;)

RedXian
June 13th, 2010, 05:01 AM
If Young had said "Take it". Here is what would have happened.

Kiva shoots TJ the moment Young give the order.
Greer Shoots Kiva.
The other two LA guys open fire on both Greer & Young.

Oh and then the Hostages are executed.

While Greer could have taken out Kiva, the cost was too great.

garhkal
June 13th, 2010, 06:43 AM
Ok! so yo all think the Air Force would have come up on the short end of that fight.. I only saw one gun drawn on the LA side. Who has the better training? The US Air Force or a bunch of x slaves?

Well, seeing as how "The better shot's Air force people got pushed back very easily, i would say the X slaves.

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Kiva would have been the first one shot! Her gun was not drawn the whole time. TJ could have stepped to the side. Its an easy thing to point and shoot a automatic pistol when you have it raised and the target is only four feet in front of you! Sorry i think Greer is better than the LA. In close quarters the handgun rules! You should go hunting more and watch tv less, friends. I suggest that you take a concealed weapons course and get a permit to carry and then you may better understand.

Demerzel
June 13th, 2010, 07:08 AM
Kiva would have been the first one shot! Her gun was not drawn the whole time. TJ could have stepped to the side. Its an easy thing to point and shoot a automatic pistol when you have it raised and the target is only four feet in front of you! Sorry i think Greer is better than the LA. In close quarters the handgun rules! You should go hunting more and watch tv less, friends. I suggest that you take a concealed weapons course and get a permit to carry and then you may better understand.

You wouldn't get very far in officer school, buddy.

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 07:44 AM
ok. The officers in charge get killed by their own men. Glad that Im not in need of such structure in my life. folks. Im going fishing! later!

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 08:05 AM
I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

if Greer had shot Kiva, then the hostages would have all been killed. Also, there would have been a firefight in a tight enclosed space and even more people would have died. This really wouldn't have been a smart move, especially when the aim is to come out alive

Egle01
June 13th, 2010, 08:39 AM
Young's first mistake was second-guessing to vent the gateroom, when the LA arrived. After that everything just went from bad to worse. I'm interested to see how he'll manage to live with those mistakes in S2.

Zkyire
June 13th, 2010, 08:57 AM
Ok! so yo all think the Air Force would have come up on the short end of that fight.. I only saw one gun drawn on the LA side. Who has the better training? The US Air Force or a bunch of x slaves?

Greer isn't USAF.

He's a Marine.

And the fact is those "x slaves" have already stormed the ship, beat back the Marines and Air Force guys, and taken a good part of the ship and hostages along with them. They've already proven that they're not amateurs.

But yeah, your point about Greer's skill stands either way.


But the point is, if he killed Kiva, the other LA guys would have executed the hostages.

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 09:14 AM
Young's first mistake was second-guessing to vent the gateroom, when the LA arrived. After that everything just went from bad to worse. I'm interested to see how he'll manage to live with those mistakes in S2.

Thank You Egle, I agree. He was very sure of himself until Telford appeared in the gateroom. After that he stammerd and paused. I like Louis' Flawed character in Young. It makes for an interesting hour on friday night.

hedwig
June 13th, 2010, 09:26 AM
if Greer had shot Kiva, then the hostages would have all been killed. Also, there would have been a firefight in a tight enclosed space and even more people would have died. This really wouldn't have been a smart move, especially when the aim is to come out alive

Just to offer an example of the bolded part: Look at the number of casualties later in the infirmary with one P90(?). Was Varro the only one left standing there?

The Mighty 6 platoon
June 13th, 2010, 09:44 AM
Just to offer an example of the bolded part: Look at the number of casualties later in the infirmary with one P90(?). Was Varro the only one left standing there?

It was a Tec 9. But it's a good example in a show of what will happen with wild firing in enclosed spaces, everybody goes down.

If Greer had taken the shot, Kiva would have died first, then pretty much everyone else in that corridor would have died.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 09:45 AM
It was a Tec 9. But it's a good example in a show of what will happen with wild firing in enclosed spaces, everybody goes down.

If Greer had taken the shot, Kiva would have died first, then pretty much everyone else in that corridor would have died.

and then all the hostages would have died. Also, with no real leadership, the LA that were left could easily take the rest of the crew. Game over.

General Jumper One
June 13th, 2010, 09:47 AM
and then all the hostages would have died. Also, with no real leadership, the LA that were left could easily take the rest of the crew. Game over.

then everyone would have died because of the pulsar

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 13th, 2010, 09:49 AM
then everyone would have died because of the pulsar

:D 'xactly
better to negotiate and live, if it means everyone or almost everyone lives

fmbchris
June 13th, 2010, 06:51 PM
For a moment I thought we were in trouble!

Replicator Todd
June 13th, 2010, 10:13 PM
For a moment I thought we were in trouble!
Awwwwww yeah!

koroush47
June 13th, 2010, 10:23 PM
They should of just turned off life support... waited for everybody to start dying... Then come in with suits and drag the hostages out.

Replicator Todd
June 13th, 2010, 10:24 PM
They should of just turned off life support... waited for everybody to start dying... Then come in with suits and drag the hostages out.

They honestly does make alot of sense, but something could of gone wrong.

hedwig
June 14th, 2010, 08:06 AM
They honestly does make alot of sense, but something could of gone wrong.

It always does.:D It's a requirement on Stargate.:p:D

talyn2k1
June 14th, 2010, 10:16 AM
If they had done that, there still would've been plenty of chance for the LA to kill the hostages. It took Telford over 5 minutes to pass out when they were venting the air out of the compartment he was in, you just couldn't render them unconscious quick enough to avoid bloodshed.

Rudy Pena
June 14th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Well, seeing as how "The better shot's Air force people got pushed back very easily, i would say the X slaves.

Well, The L.A. did use Flashbangs which uses a bright light and loud sound to stun your targets long enough to take them out. Thats why they were pushed back "very easliy".

blackluster
June 14th, 2010, 10:47 AM
Shooting Kiva probably wouldn't have worked out well, since the only other brains in their outfit seemed to be Varro who was still on a table at that stage. That leaves the not so smart guys in charge which leads to not so well thought out responses like killing hostages etc.

Having said that though, Young probably wouldn't have known that much at least with her in front of him. At that stage he was probably banking it all on Telford figuring something out and the power drain didn't really help his own plans either. At that stage there wasn't much he could do that wasn't a bad choice, but shooting Kiva would probably be the worst of a number of evils.

GateroomGuard
June 14th, 2010, 02:38 PM
Here's the thing the whole idea that saving the hostages is the number 1 priority is flawed. The entire ship is at stake and Young puts the lives of a few people over the lives of the entire crew. Yes TJ is valuable to the crew for her medical skills and as people they all have value but Young cannot be looking at this situation from a humans view. He has to see it as what is the greater good for the crew. Losing TJ and the hostages would be bad, losing the entire crew is worse. And the sad part is TJ and all those hostages are replaceable. The stones can get them a doctor or anyone at anytime. And sadly the less people onboard the greater chance of living the other crewmembers have.

If Greer could take out Kiva and remove leadership from the Alliance then he should have. That said Young was also in danger of being killed which was a risk he shouldn't have taken. In the end if Greer had fired then Kiva would be dead and so would about 2 other LA soldiers. But Young, TJ, Greer, and all the hostages would be dead. Destiny would be leaderless and it most likely would have ended with Baldy ordering a full assualt which would make all the Destiny crew dead or about to be dead as prisoners.

So basically it would have ended just like it did except Young wouldn't be there to stare at the flickering lights.

carnivore
June 15th, 2010, 01:18 AM
The question shouldn't be whether or not Greer should have taken the shot ... the question should be: what was the plan in the first place?

It'd be ridiculous for Young not to assume that Kiva had given contingency orders in case of ambush. Plus, in any case, killing Kiva wouldn't have changed the status quo all that much; there would still be a hostile enemy force holding hostages in the gateroom. So there should have been a Part II to the plan to quickly swoop into the Gateroom in the confusion after shots were fired. Scott was doing some kind of flanking move, so maybe that was the idea - to hit them from a different direction at the same time.

The most obvious flaw in the plan is the fact that Greer had to request permission to shoot after his weapon was already drawn. The way it played out was sort of like Greer saying: "Excuse me, Kiva, could you and your friends please hang on for a sec' while I request permission to surprise you?"

In a real hostage situation, the shooter would have been greenlighted to make the decision on his own. Either that, or Young would have used a code word or gesture to give the go ahead. If Greer just starts shooting without running his mouth first, Kiva and at least one more of her crew go down before it even registers. The remaining guys (how many were there) may even have their line of fire obstructed by their own dead/dying and have trouble with target selection (assuming that they don't just go into spray mode and risk shooting their own). There's also no reason that Young and his other personnel couldn't have drawn at the same time.

Bottom line: Using surprise in a small enclosed place with no cover, 4-5 people have a reasonable chance to take out an opposing force of similar size with "acceptable losses" in under two seconds. But there had to be a plan to penetrate to the Gateroom in the same period of time.

JustAnotherVoice
June 15th, 2010, 04:44 AM
Bottom line: Using surprise in a small enclosed place with no cover, 4-5 people have a reasonable chance to take out an opposing force of similar size with "acceptable losses" in under two seconds. But there had to be a plan to penetrate to the Gateroom in the same period of time.

I thought Scott and some marines were stacked up in the corridor behind the exchange?

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 05:47 AM
The question shouldn't be whether or not Greer should have taken the shot ... the question should be: what was the plan in the first place?

It'd be ridiculous for Young not to assume that Kiva had given contingency orders in case of ambush. Plus, in any case, killing Kiva wouldn't have changed the status quo all that much; there would still be a hostile enemy force holding hostages in the gateroom. So there should have been a Part II to the plan to quickly swoop into the Gateroom in the confusion after shots were fired. Scott was doing some kind of flanking move, so maybe that was the idea - to hit them from a different direction at the same time.

The most obvious flaw in the plan is the fact that Greer had to request permission to shoot after his weapon was already drawn. The way it played out was sort of like Greer saying: "Excuse me, Kiva, could you and your friends please hang on for a sec' while I request permission to surprise you?"

In a real hostage situation, the shooter would have been greenlighted to make the decision on his own. Either that, or Young would have used a code word or gesture to give the go ahead. If Greer just starts shooting without running his mouth first, Kiva and at least one more of her crew go down before it even registers. The remaining guys (how many were there) may even have their line of fire obstructed by their own dead/dying and have trouble with target selection (assuming that they don't just go into spray mode and risk shooting their own). There's also no reason that Young and his other personnel couldn't have drawn at the same time.

Bottom line: Using surprise in a small enclosed place with no cover, 4-5 people have a reasonable chance to take out an opposing force of similar size with "acceptable losses" in under two seconds. But there had to be a plan to penetrate to the Gateroom in the same period of time.

I think the plan was to get TJ out of the room and take it from there. It only needed to work long enough to get her out

garhkal
June 16th, 2010, 04:26 AM
Bottom line: Using surprise in a small enclosed place with no cover, 4-5 people have a reasonable chance to take out an opposing force of similar size with "acceptable losses" in under two seconds. But there had to be a plan to penetrate to the Gateroom in the same period of time.

Who's to say even if Greer HAD of taken her out without any of our guys biting the bullet, that the sound of that gunfire would not have been heard back in the gate room and the guys there acting under their last orders kill the hostages.

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 16th, 2010, 04:38 AM
fmbchris,


I believe Young made an error when he didn't give Greer the order to shoot Kiva.

Because, obviously, once Kiva is shot the situation on the ship would improve dramatically?

carnivore
June 16th, 2010, 04:54 AM
Who's to say even if Greer HAD of taken her out without any of our guys biting the bullet, that the sound of that gunfire would not have been heard back in the gate room and the guys there acting under their last orders kill the hostages.

Umm ... that's the point. The whole Greer as "undercover medic commando" at the exchange point doesn't make any sense unless there was also a plan in place to swiftly subdue the remaining forces at generally the sme time as Kiva was neutralized.

Maybe we're supposed to assume that there was no plan, and that Greer was in place "just in case" he was needed. Then acting on his own shortsighted initiative he drew his weapon, but his military training forced him to request permission to proceed.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 16th, 2010, 05:31 AM
fmbchris,



Because, obviously, once Kiva is shot the situation on the ship would improve dramatically?given the nature of the organization Kiva runs, you kill Kiva and end up with a bunch of Kivas all looking to take her place. I don't see how that helps.

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 12:19 PM
given the nature of the organization Kiva runs, you kill Kiva and end up with a bunch of Kivas all looking to take her place. I don't see how that helps.

Except all those Kiva wannabes may kill each other.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 16th, 2010, 12:41 PM
Except all those Kiva wannabes may kill each other.

which sounds like great fun :D

Commander Zelix
June 16th, 2010, 12:45 PM
You shoot Kiva only if you have the intention to charge with your people. She would be the first casuality of the attack on the gateroom.