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Shai Hulud
June 12th, 2010, 04:28 AM
Does she actualy have any? The only thing that she was actualy supposed to be good at and she flails miserably, as per usual. She really is useless.

Coronach
June 12th, 2010, 05:34 AM
Who said she was "supposed to be good at it"? Not only did she not do a great job, but you could physically see how uncomfortable she was in the situation and especially once the dead body was brought in.

People harp on constantly about how "she's just an HR rep!" and such, so why is it such a life-altering surprise when she does a mediocre job acting as a negotiator? :S

Maybe negotiating isn't her thing? Maybe she'll do better the next time she has to negotiate? Frankly, I'm more interested in seeing where her character goes than writing her off as definitively useless just yet.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 12th, 2010, 06:54 AM
I don't think Wray failed miserably, although I do believe that she got her eyes opened for her. She was working with Young for once and that was really something. I think she went into this very naive. Her bit about refusing to wear a vest, for one. She's still thinking she's dealing with nice rational people that can be talked to, but she keeps trying. Kiva's dialogue, and the final bit where they traded a dead soldier's body, really sent it home, hopefully. Altogether, I think that Wray, like Young, did the best she could with a crappy situation. I'm actually kind of impressed with her.

pipi
June 12th, 2010, 07:11 AM
Pitty she didn't get shot.

Utitan
June 12th, 2010, 07:13 AM
I like what you say about Wray, I've felt she is completely in the past few episodes, always stepping in and trying to throw a wrench in getting things done. I was hoping Kiva would have just shot her. But I can see where the writers are taking her as being so naive and now having a nice dose of reality set in. I bet her character comes back stronger next season. Time will tell.

Briangate78
June 12th, 2010, 07:16 AM
Wray should take Negotiation tips from Korben Dallas..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKwg6W05MU

JustAnotherVoice
June 12th, 2010, 07:21 AM
I don't think Wray failed miserably, although I do believe that she got her eyes opened for her. She was working with Young for once and that was really something. I think she went into this very naive. Her bit about refusing to wear a vest, for one. She's still thinking she's dealing with nice rational people that can be talked to, but she keeps trying. Kiva's dialogue, and the final bit where they traded a dead soldier's body, really sent it home, hopefully. Altogether, I think that Wray, like Young, did the best she could with a crappy situation. I'm actually kind of impressed with her.

This is the part of her character that I hate the most. Compared to everyone else with speaking lines, she comes across as being the most sheltered, yet she has the biggest bark. If she wasn't as naive (or optimistic on the levels of Ford) or didn't suffer so badly from "priviledged b!tch" syndrome, she may be a likable character for me.

Zkyire
June 12th, 2010, 08:03 AM
Wray should take Negotiation tips from Korben Dallas..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKwg6W05MU

/approve of this post

Seriously though, Wray is not a trained negotiator, so it's not exactly a surprise that she failed.

On a side note as to why she failed: Kiva is insane.

s09119
June 12th, 2010, 09:13 AM
She's a human resources bureaucrat, not a hostage negotiator. So, in light of that, her attempt was fine. Unsuccessful, of course, but she did what she could.

magictrick
June 12th, 2010, 09:19 AM
She talked big but faltered under pressure. Go figure, she's your regular bureaucrat.

VampyreWraith
June 12th, 2010, 09:38 AM
IMO the writers have never been especially good at writing negotiation scenes. The characters never come out looking as strong or as good as they couldve, as writers themselves arent professional negotiators. That said Wray wasnt supposed to be a pro at negotiating with ruthless villans, and was supposed to be a bit niave. Though i did think refusing to wear the vest went a little far.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 12th, 2010, 09:41 AM
IMO the writers have never been especially good at writing negotiation scenes. The characters never come out looking as strong or as good as they couldve, as writers themselves arent professional negotiators. That said Wray wasnt supposed to be a pro at negotiating with ruthless villans, and was supposed to be a bit niave. Though i did think refusing to wear the vest went a little far.

refusing to wear the vest was classic Wray though and fit very well with how they've written the character. Even Scott mentioned that Young didn't think she would take it but to try anyway

VampyreWraith
June 12th, 2010, 09:45 AM
refusing to wear the vest was classic Wray though and fit very well with how they've written the character. Even Scott mentioned that Young didn't think she would take it but to try anyway

Yeah. But Kiva sounds too psychotic not to want to at least wear a vest around.

Commander Zelix
June 12th, 2010, 09:58 AM
Well, it's a first part of a 2 parter so yes everybody failed. Young venting of room and hostage exchanged failed so has his introduction of Greer as a medic. Wray negociation failed. Even Telford plan failed. Don't worry the good guys will win at the end.

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 10:08 AM
I was going to say, if we're going to list peopl who've failed, I like Young but we need to put him front and center as the man who single handedly boned this thing. He failed to make the correct call twice. Once because Telford was in danger. And the second time because TJ an his child were in danger. Greer needs to take Young under his wing apparently.

I don't really think Wray failed to be quite honest with you. She had no bargaining position and Kiva understood this. She chose Wray because she could be trusted not to pull a gun on her and because she knew she could scare her. And to be honest, most negotiotiations are kind of like that. Two sides talking (because its better for the moment) but one side having a distinct advantage.

And that said, I don't think things like this are going to keep "scaring" Wray. I think she'll learn to swim.

Tuvok
June 12th, 2010, 10:12 AM
This is the part of her character that I hate the most. Compared to everyone else with speaking lines, she comes across as being the most sheltered, yet she has the biggest bark. If she wasn't as naive (or optimistic on the levels of Ford) or didn't suffer so badly from "priviledged b!tch" syndrome, she may be a likable character for me.

Yeah, poor Wray a lot of Bark but no bite to back it up.

Remember however, she is trying to do the best she can repping the civies. But in the end she is the Human Resource Manger. One , that doesn't scream diplomat to me .. and two lets be honest she was always over her head regarding a whole bunch of things. It's just that she doesn't relaize or accept it.

ONeill4tW
June 12th, 2010, 10:21 AM
They needed Hector Barbossa to do the negotiations. He wouldn't have made the mistake of leaving out "4 living hostages" in his negotiations. Heh. Details details! Its always in the details!

But yeah, I saw so many loop holes in the negotiations that a dog could leap through them and not get scorched.

hedwig
June 12th, 2010, 10:26 AM
I don't think Wray failed miserably, although I do believe that she got her eyes opened for her. She was working with Young for once and that was really something. I think she went into this very naive. Her bit about refusing to wear a vest, for one. She's still thinking she's dealing with nice rational people that can be talked to, but she keeps trying. Kiva's dialogue, and the final bit where they traded a dead soldier's body, really sent it home, hopefully. Altogether, I think that Wray, like Young, did the best she could with a crappy situation. I'm actually kind of impressed with her.

I was thinking similar thoughts. :) She seems to think she's dealing with rational people and they'll come to their senses, when in fact the opposite is true. She's never been in a situation even remotely resembling this, and was incredibly naive to think she could negotiate their way out of it. But at least she gave it her best shot.

Avenger
June 12th, 2010, 11:48 AM
She got three people released. How you can equate that to failing miserably is beyond me. Did things goes as planned? Of course not. And she certainly was shocked by the reality of seeing someone dead and bloody.

droid327
June 12th, 2010, 12:15 PM
She always talks so much about military vs civilian mentality....yet clearly the LA is coming in with a "military" mindset, but she's treating them as though they're criminals with their backs to the wall - ie, a group trying to get out of a situation, rather than one trying to achieve a goal and prevent an enemy from achieving theirs.

That's most evident in her line about "it doesnt have to be this way!", or whatever it was...any rational person would have realized right from the start that Kiva wants it "this way", this was something of her own design.

If she really thinks she understands the difference between a military and a civilian mindset, she'd've stood back and let the military deal with its own in its own way.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 12th, 2010, 12:19 PM
I was thinking similar thoughts. :) She seems to think she's dealing with rational people and they'll come to their senses, when in fact the opposite is true. She's never been in a situation even remotely resembling this, and was incredibly naive to think she could negotiate their way out of it. But at least she gave it her best shot.she tried, and that is something
I'm wondering if she'll be looking at Young a little differently after this, after working side by side with him. When Young is put side by side with Kiva, will she change her view, even if it's choosing the lesser of evils (to her anyway)? Will dealing with Kiva ba a "this is what you COULD be dealing with" sort of thing and Wray will throw herself behind Young? Also, Young didn't fight Wray once in any of this; he let her do it, let her try. How will she view that down the road?


She got three people released. How you can equate that to failing miserably is beyond me. Did things goes as planned? Of course not. And she certainly was shocked by the reality of seeing someone dead and bloody.This is one of those situations where the end justifies the means. How Wray managed to get those people back isn't really important in the scheme of things. She hasn't failed, because she got people back. Given Young's standards of success - as in, not losing any of his people - I'd say that she did quite well. Good for her!

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 12:45 PM
she tried, and that is something
I'm wondering if she'll be looking at Young a little differently after this, after working side by side with him. When Young is put side by side with Kiva, will she change her view, even if it's choosing the lesser of evils (to her anyway)? Will dealing with Kiva ba a "this is what you COULD be dealing with" sort of thing and Wray will throw herself behind Young?

I think it's interesting that much Wray's actions have been based on the fear that Young would become despotic. In Kiva, she finds the actual representation of her fear.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 12th, 2010, 12:47 PM
I think it's interesting that much Wray's actions have been based on the fear that Young would become despotic. In Kiva, she finds the actual representation of her fear.

exactly :)
you want to see what a real despot looks like, I think she just did and it's not Young

hedwig
June 12th, 2010, 01:09 PM
she tried, and that is something
I'm wondering if she'll be looking at Young a little differently after this, after working side by side with him. When Young is put side by side with Kiva, will she change her view, even if it's choosing the lesser of evils (to her anyway)? Will dealing with Kiva ba a "this is what you COULD be dealing with" sort of thing and Wray will throw herself behind Young? Also, Young didn't fight Wray once in any of this; he let her do it, let her try. How will she view that down the road?

This is one of those situations where the end justifies the means. How Wray managed to get those people back isn't really important in the scheme of things. She hasn't failed, because she got people back. Given Young's standards of success - as in, not losing any of his people - I'd say that she did quite well. Good for her!

Love how startled she was when Young immediately agreed with her and allowed her to try. Also loved the look on Rush's face when Young immediately agreed with him as well. All of them might be starting to view the others a little differently after this. :)

MattSilver 3k
June 12th, 2010, 01:11 PM
I don't get why Wray gets such a bad rep around here. Sure she's not the perfectest person on the ship, but who is? (Not named Hunter Riley?) Her negotiation was fine. Kiva was just better.

hedwig
June 12th, 2010, 02:03 PM
I was going to say, if we're going to list peopl who've failed, I like Young but we need to put him front and center as the man who single handedly boned this thing. He failed to make the correct call twice. Once because Telford was in danger. And the second time because TJ an his child were in danger. Greer needs to take Young under his wing apparently.

I don't really think Wray failed to be quite honest with you. She had no bargaining position and Kiva understood this. She chose Wray because she could be trusted not to pull a gun on her and because she knew she could scare her. And to be honest, most negotiotiations are kind of like that. Two sides talking (because its better for the moment) but one side having a distinct advantage.

And that said, I don't think things like this are going to keep "scaring" Wray. I think she'll learn to swim.

I noticed during the prisoner exchange that Wray was starting to "panic"; her voice got rather shaky, and she was really, really scared (not surprisingly).

wargrafix
June 12th, 2010, 04:40 PM
I have always not too much cared for the miltary role in the SG universe as some kind of insta fix saviors. But this is a case where the military should be front and center. If you want to kick ass, you use your foot....not your hands in a handshake.

lordofseas
June 12th, 2010, 04:43 PM
I like Wray far more than Young. She attempted to soothe the situation with minimal casualties and I can applaud that.

JustAnotherVoice
June 12th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Remember however, she is trying to do the best she can repping the civies. But in the end she is the Human Resource Manger. One , that doesn't scream diplomat to me .. and two lets be honest she was always over her head regarding a whole bunch of things. It's just that she doesn't relaize or accept it.

It's not just this diplomacy episode though. Everything she does (in retrospect) is tainted with a sense of entitlement, even if she says she's doing it for the good of "her" people. If that was how the character was written, then mad props to the writing team and Ming Na for pulling it off so well. However, that makes her (one of) the least sympathetic characters for me.

fmbchris
June 12th, 2010, 07:17 PM
I think she should have traded herself.

meo3000
June 13th, 2010, 02:56 AM
Kiva said it best:

"I can see that you're someone who enjoys talking through problems. But if you don't solves this new one then neither of us will have anything to talk about."

If Wray knew what she was doing, when they brought the body, she should have pulled a gun and shot one of the four LA hostage in the head. Turn to Kiva and say: "Now, thats a fair exchange". Maybe then Kiva would have respected her as a leader. Instead she panicked and now Kiva knows theres no real leadership on Destiny.

Good job!

RedXian
June 13th, 2010, 05:52 AM
Wray is not a trained negotiator. She was the head of the HR department on the Icarus Base. And not a very high in the IOA echelons either.

She, like everyone else on board, is being shoehorned into a a role that they are not quite up to perform.

Expecting Wray's negotiating skills to be high when she doesn't even understand the motivations of whom she is negotiating with is a bit much.

garhkal
June 13th, 2010, 07:41 AM
/approve of this post

Seriously though, Wray is not a trained negotiator, so it's not exactly a surprise that she failed.

On a side note as to why she failed: Kiva is insane.

I was wondering if someone was going to mention that scene.


I think it's interesting that much Wray's actions have been based on the fear that Young would become despotic. In Kiva, she finds the actual representation of her fear.

That is true. If nothing else, this has shown her that Young is NOT what she thought he was, and that it is sometimes better the Devil you know.


If Wray knew what she was doing, when they brought the body, she should have pulled a gun and shot one of the four LA hostage in the head. Turn to Kiva and say: "Now, thats a fair exchange". Maybe then Kiva would have respected her as a leader. Instead she panicked and now Kiva knows theres no real leadership on Destiny.

That would have been something to see, but i don;t think Wray has that cold calculating mindset.

RJLCyberPunk
June 13th, 2010, 09:18 AM
She talked big but faltered under pressure. Go figure, she's your regular bureaucrat.

As others said she is a freaking politician not a trained hostage negotiator, she was well intentioned but pretty darn naive. She is quickly learning how though life can really be beyond a desk.

magictrick
June 13th, 2010, 09:22 AM
I like Wray far more than Young. She attempted to soothe the situation with minimal casualties and I can applaud that.

She's annoying to no end. I hate people who pretend to know better but actually don't. She always tries to prove that her way is better than Young's or the military, which is ok, but she goes about it the wrong way.


As others said she is a freaking politician not a trained hostage negotiator, she was well intentioned but pretty darn naive. She is quickly learning how though life can really be beyond a desk.

Yep that's exactly my point. They all talk like they are experts, but have no idea how negotiating actually works in these types of situations. I'm not saying many people can be trained to negotiate with criminals on a spaceship millions of lightyears from Earth, but you get the picture :)

jmoz
June 13th, 2010, 09:22 AM
Think they're just giving her scenes, building her up so that she can take over in future episodes. All the while making Young make some unbelievable mistakes again to build her up taking over. Going to be more "I wanna be Prom Queen" (in charge) "stuff", it seems. My opinion, may not be yours.

koroush47
June 13th, 2010, 11:19 PM
Does she actualy have any? The only thing that she was actualy supposed to be good at and she flails miserably, as per usual. She really is useless.
She is pretty bad at it, she should of not given four prisoners and food for 3 + a dead one.

What a bad negotiator. Keep in mind that wray was in the position of power also.

Kelara
June 13th, 2010, 11:41 PM
Love how startled she was when Young immediately agreed with her and allowed her to try. Also loved the look on Rush's face when Young immediately agreed with him as well. All of them might be starting to view the others a little differently after this. :)

The question would be why Young agreed so readily this time. Just one episode before, he couldn't even tell her he was having a plan while doing the "near death experience breakes brainwashing" trick. What would it have hurt to tell her about that in half a sentence and thereby stop her snapping and yapping at his heels?

And this time she just mentions how things could be different and he gives her full authority. No wonder everyone was startled to high heavens. Could be that he's worried that he can't be impartial/ controlled enough (seeing as his child is a hostage along with TJ). Could be that he has decided they are in a no-win situation anyway and he could as well benefit by deliberately setting Wray up to fail (since he knew no one was really proficient in hostage negotiations). So she will keep her mouth shut in the future. Like "See, this is what happens when we do it your way. Way to go girly!" Seeing how Young seems to really be into mindgames, it's at least a possibility. Build your position not by strengthening it, but by weakening others.

[Can you tell I'm not the greatest Young fan ;)?]

meo3000
June 14th, 2010, 12:23 AM
Could be that he has decided they are in a no-win situation anyway and he could as well benefit by deliberately setting Wray up to fail (since he knew no one was really proficient in hostage negotiations). So she will keep her mouth shut in the future[...] Seeing how Young seems to really be into mindgames, it's at least a possibility. Build your position not by strengthening it, but by weakening others.

Its actually a not a bad strategy considering how things turns out when he unilaterally makes decisions.

Kelara
June 14th, 2010, 12:46 AM
Its actually a not a bad strategy considering how things turns out when he unilaterally makes decisions.

You mean with the people dying? So not bad for who? Young?

It'd be tragic if he was one day standing around yelling "I want that fixed, now!" only to realize that the only one left to do the fixing would be himself. Tragic, I tell you ;).

~~~

Jest aside, the "benevolent dictator" type of leaderis historically proven to be a very volatile type of leadership. As for me, I'm not convinced he could pull the "benevolent" part off anyway *shrugs*, but I guess the writers consciously leave that character (and others) open to different ways of interpretation. Can't pull any suprises if the characters are too clear cut.

tomstone
June 14th, 2010, 01:18 AM
I actually think she did a good job that for her shame backfired. Exchanging the hostages was a great move in aspect of getting the civilians out of the way and also to may get TJ out so Young would finally vent the corridors and they would be done with.

As for the 8 remaining militaries on the other side. I did my time at the Military, and at least our law stated that we were objects and property of the Military. They face the chance they could die on a daily basis. So having them passout to, in the worst case, reanimate them is a risk that would be worth taken.

And as for her weak reaction when they dragged along a dead body. Show me a civilian that isnt shocked by that when not expecting it.

jmoz
June 14th, 2010, 01:20 AM
Would have been crazy if she shot one of the Lucian dudes, eye for an eye.

EllieVee
June 14th, 2010, 02:01 AM
As others said she is a freaking politician not a trained hostage negotiator, she was well intentioned but pretty darn naive. She is quickly learning how though life can really be beyond a desk.

Do you actually know the difference between an elected official (i.e. a politician) and a bureaucrat (i.e. someone who works for the government)? Clearly not. Wray is a HR Manager and yes, she should be used to negotiating because managers have to but Kiva's not the sort of person with whom a win-win negotiation can be made. I think Wray did very well under the circumstances and has done from the beginning.

I don't think Kiva is insane. I think she knows precisely what she's doing. An insane person is not responsible for her actions.

Shai Hulud
June 14th, 2010, 02:04 AM
And also totaly against the mold that character has been cast in this Season of SGU. Wray doesnt have the cojones to even consider weilding a gun, let alone capping someone as reciprocation for Kiva's awesome move in handing over a dead body. She's far too weak to make any such proactive moves.

jmoz
June 14th, 2010, 02:06 AM
Eh, think she did more of Chamberlain's appeasement than anything.

Phenom
June 14th, 2010, 04:11 AM
Wray tried her best but did no good. There is absolutely zero relation between being a good negotiator in politics or in business, as opposed to being a hostage type negotiator. They are not the same and it is misleading that they sort of share the same name.

The biggest mistake she/they made in this negotiation was that it was rushed. They needed to utilise time and maintain open lines of communication, no matter how mad Kiva got at times. The breakdown in trust when Young tried to trick Kiva was a terrible tactical move that was completely unnecessary.

In Wray's defence though, she was the best person for the job as Young was absolutely not the personality type to be negotiating and maintaing a level head when faced with things going wrong.

I find it interesting the posters who immediately discount negotiation in this situation due to Kiva being 'crazy' etc. How is this different to a man holding his wife and baby hostage in the family home? Do you think he is thinking rationally? Not many people who are the subjects in a negotiation are thinking rationally. In fact, someone like Kiva would be great to negotiate with as she is actually capable of holding a rational conversation.

JustAnotherVoice
June 14th, 2010, 04:15 AM
Eh, think she did more of Chamberlain's appeasement than anything.

History proved Chamberlain to be a doormat, as Kiva did to Wray.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 14th, 2010, 08:23 AM
She is pretty bad at it, she should of not given four prisoners and food for 3 + a dead one.

What a bad negotiator. Keep in mind that wray was in the position of power also.Bad negotiator? She got 4 for 4, that's not a fail. Even if it's 3 for 4, it's not a fail. The food goes to the hostages also, so that's also not a fail.


The question would be why Young agreed so readily this time. Just one episode before, he couldn't even tell her he was having a plan while doing the "near death experience breakes brainwashing" trick. What would it have hurt to tell her about that in half a sentence and thereby stop her snapping and yapping at his heels?

And this time she just mentions how things could be different and he gives her full authority. No wonder everyone was startled to high heavens. Could be that he's worried that he can't be impartial/ controlled enough (seeing as his child is a hostage along with TJ). Could be that he has decided they are in a no-win situation anyway and he could as well benefit by deliberately setting Wray up to fail (since he knew no one was really proficient in hostage negotiations). So she will keep her mouth shut in the future. Like "See, this is what happens when we do it your way. Way to go girly!" Seeing how Young seems to really be into mindgames, it's at least a possibility. Build your position not by strengthening it, but by weakening others.

[Can you tell I'm not the greatest Young fan ;)?]I think he agreed because she was willing to work with him and not against him. They did a pretty good job of working together in this episode and rescued 3 people and allowed them possibly all to be saved a little longer by allowing Scott and Greer out to fix the shields.


And also totaly against the mold that character has been cast in this Season of SGU. Wray doesnt have the cojones to even consider weilding a gun, let alone capping someone as reciprocation for Kiva's awesome move in handing over a dead body. She's far too weak to make any such proactive moves.It took more guts on Wray's part to walk in there without a gun. Cojones? Say what you want about the woman but you can't really question her bravery.

SG7
June 14th, 2010, 09:20 AM
She's a human resources bureaucrat, not a hostage negotiator. So, in light of that, her attempt was fine. Unsuccessful, of course, but she did what she could.

And to look at it another way. She may have failed at the negotiating. But she did buy their side some time. However futile it wound up being.

Alan Wake
June 14th, 2010, 09:21 AM
I don't believe she could negotiate her way out of a paper bag.

How she ever got this job is beyond me.

SG7
June 14th, 2010, 09:31 AM
Its actually a not a bad strategy considering how things turns out when he unilaterally makes decisions.

Yeh perhaps he redily agreed knowing that it was going to be a futile attempt and that she would fail miserably. Thus making his mistakes not look quite as bad.

SG7
June 14th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I just don't get how so many are saying that she was a useless negotiator. Given the circomstances and the monster that Kiva was, I say she did ok. Not great, as she neglected to specify live people. (and kudos for Kiva use that to her advantage by sending over a dead body) However she did get 3 living people back to their side, bought a little bit of time, and was able to get Greer and Scott to be able to go out and fix the shielding problem.

For someone who was likely not trained to deal with Psycotic monsters, I'd say that she did ok all things considered. Isn't likely that she had a book entitled "Negotiating Kiva 101" with her.

Lahela
June 14th, 2010, 09:53 AM
I don't believe she could negotiate her way out of a paper bag.

How she ever got this job is beyond me.

Got what job? She's a HR manager, not a trained negotiator. And who else on board has the seniority or the guts to do what she has done in the last two eps?

Alan Wake
June 14th, 2010, 09:56 AM
Got what job? She's a HR manager, not a trained negotiator. And who else on board has the seniority or the guts to do what she has done in the last two eps?

You tell me what good she's really done for the ship.

In this season... she's succeeded in yelling, whining, contributing in a mutiny, disobeyed orders, more yelling... and stalling time for a rescue attempt. Also, she seems to be up everyones back... every chance she gets. Does she have any friends?

What has she done in these last 2 episodes?

Lahela
June 14th, 2010, 10:59 AM
You tell me what good she's really done for the ship.

In this season... she's succeeded in yelling, whining, contributing in a mutiny, disobeyed orders, more yelling... and stalling time for a rescue attempt. Also, she seems to be up everyones back... every chance she gets. Does she have any friends?

What has she done in these last 2 episodes?

I didn't say she has actually achieved anything for the ship, I just pointed out that she's a HR manager in response to your question about how she got the job. In the last two episodes she has at least attempted to broker some kind of peace. Her efforts may have been a little misguided (she is clearly out of her depth, much like most of the people on board) and may not have been entirely successful, but she did manage to get three hostages released and ensured the rest wouldn't starve to death. No matter how you paint it, that can't be a bad thing in itself.

meo3000
June 14th, 2010, 11:04 AM
She needs a good rubbing, yes, you read that right.

Maybe TJ could assist if she wasnt occupied being unconscious while her baby is bleeding its life away.

Wait... Chloe is dying too... so is Kiva. But nooooo, Wray must get through this without a scratch. Thats BS, she shouldve been the first to eat a bullet.

Lahela
June 14th, 2010, 11:07 AM
She needs a good rubbing, yes, you read that right.

Maybe TJ could assist if she wasnt occupied being unconscious while her baby is bleeding its life away.

Wait... Chloe is dying too... so is Kiva. But nooooo, Wray must get through this without a scratch. Thats BS, she shouldve been the first to eat a bullet.

Why? Because you don't like her? Would you be so good as to provide a list of all characters that "should eat a bullet" so that the rest of us know who to cheer for in future?

Shai Hulud
June 14th, 2010, 11:36 AM
Psycotic monsters.

I dont see Kiva being psychotic, she certainly is not out of touch with reality, in fact the had a masterfull command of the reality in which she found herself. Her methods may be brutal but she certainly is not suffering from a psychosis, she wouldnt have been placed in a position of authority in the LA if she was simply a mad woman.

carmencatalina
June 14th, 2010, 01:26 PM
It took more guts on Wray's part to walk in there without a gun. Cojones? Say what you want about the woman but you can't really question her bravery.

This is exactly what I was thinking. She doesn't lack guts, that's for sure.

meo3000
June 14th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Why? Because you don't like her? Would you be so good as to provide a list of all characters that "should eat a bullet" so that the rest of us know who to cheer for in future?

It has nothing to do with me liking her or not (although your right, i dont like her). It has to do with the fact that Wray told Kiva she was in charge, and when they came face to face, Kiva with her LA "negotiating handbook", let unarmed and unprotected Wray walk away, just like that. Normally Kiva shouldve scraped the deal and take Wray hostage, or kill her on the spot. Opportunities to kill the opposite leader in a stand off are rare, you must use those opportunities to your advantage. Knowing how the LA do business, it wasnt brave, it was stupid. She was just lucky Kiva, and the writers, were in a good mood.

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 01:43 AM
It has nothing to do with me liking her or not (although your right, i dont like her). It has to do with the fact that Wray told Kiva she was in charge, and when they came face to face, Kiva with her LA "negotiating handbook", let unarmed and unprotected Wray walk away, just like that. Normally Kiva shouldve scraped the deal and take Wray hostage, or kill her on the spot. Opportunities to kill the opposite leader in a stand off are rare, you must use those opportunities to your advantage. Knowing how the LA do business, it wasnt brave, it was stupid. She was just lucky Kiva, and the writers, were in a good mood.

Alternatively, why would Kiva want to kill the person on the opposition side from whom she has already wrung conscecions? Wray is weak, far weaker than Young, Kiva knows this and stands more of a chance of getting what she wants from puny, IOA busybody Wray than Young.

jmoz
June 15th, 2010, 01:53 AM
Alternatively, why would Kiva want to kill the person on the opposition side from whom she has already wrung conscecions? Wray is weak, far weaker than Young, Kiva knows this and stands more of a chance of getting what she wants from puny, IOA busybody Wray than Young.

Kiva got supplies and food, so she essentially got what she wanted. And more later with the surrender. But she did buy time for Young even though she was made unaware of the plan. Think she just fulfills the non-military leader role. I'd like to see Wray step out of the role that she feels herself justified and warranted the leadership role and more into the role of I just want to do what's best for everyone. So far her motivations have been mostly the former, evident by her repeatedly saying civilians should rule. She just wants power and doing it not for the good reasons for the most part.

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 02:14 AM
Best thing she could do would be to pull a Spencer and put us all out of our misery.

jmoz
June 15th, 2010, 02:47 AM
Well, me personally, don't want to see another pointless and insubstantial death (lacking depth). And she's too high profile of an actress to get rid of. Also she fulfills a certain cliched role that TPTB are obviously invested in. Plus her politics make up sort of half the story telling so far, which to me is a snorefest.

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 02:50 AM
Agreed. The whole Wray character arc / storyline is ZZZzzzZZZ and something SGU could well do without.

jmoz
June 15th, 2010, 02:56 AM
Wonder what role she would have if she didn't have the ship politics role. That was one of the issues with Elizabeth sort of. They couldn't come up with a storyline for her, even though her replicator thing was pretty good and had potential. I mean what would Wray do if she didn't have that role anymore? I guess interact with any civilizations they might meet. But we haven't met any.

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 03:00 AM
They could turn her into Soylent Green! ;)

Phenom
June 15th, 2010, 04:57 AM
I kind of get the impression Wray was intended to be Weir like in her abilities but to be honest I think we have another example of how brilliant Torri was in SGA. I don't have anything particular against Minga Na or the Wray character, but I just don't think she is pulling it off as well as Torri did. Its all to do with the delivery and presence which Torri gave in spades, but Na just comes across as feeble and irrelevant a lot of the time when she shouldn't.

EllieVee
June 15th, 2010, 05:12 AM
I kind of get the impression Wray was intended to be Weir like in her abilities but to be honest I think we have another example of how brilliant Torri was in SGA. I don't have anything particular against Minga Na or the Wray character, but I just don't think she is pulling it off as well as Torri did. Its all to do with the delivery and presence which Torri gave in spades, but Na just comes across as feeble and irrelevant a lot of the time when she shouldn't.

I think Wray is supposed to be out of her depth and has been pushed into something that is beyond her capacity by her IOA masters. I think she's afraid and homesick and is doing her best. At times, that best is not good enough but one of the points of the 'wrong people' is that they then become the right people. We can see people like Park, Brody and Volker becoming Rush's team whereas they obviously weren't before; I can see Wray becoming the right person and I think Ming-Na is doing a great job showing that.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 07:28 AM
It has nothing to do with me liking her or not (although your right, i dont like her). It has to do with the fact that Wray told Kiva she was in charge, and when they came face to face, Kiva with her LA "negotiating handbook", let unarmed and unprotected Wray walk away, just like that. Normally Kiva shouldve scraped the deal and take Wray hostage, or kill her on the spot. Opportunities to kill the opposite leader in a stand off are rare, you must use those opportunities to your advantage. Knowing how the LA do business, it wasnt brave, it was stupid. She was just lucky Kiva, and the writers, were in a good mood.That's actually quite smart, having her say that she's in charge. Kiva would underestimate Wray and also believe that Wray has control over what the military on the Destiny does. In any case, having her "in charge" freed up Young, because he's not hampered by negotiating. That Telford seconded that Wray was in charge only furthered this.


Alternatively, why would Kiva want to kill the person on the opposition side from whom she has already wrung conscecions? Wray is weak, far weaker than Young, Kiva knows this and stands more of a chance of getting what she wants from puny, IOA busybody Wray than Young.Weaker or just different? That Kiva believes Wray is weaker is obvious, but underestimating Wray (and Wray's "side") is to the Destiny crew's advantage. Kiva wasn't confronted with an equal enemy so she didn't lose anything by conceding what were, to her, a few concessions. Young, no matter who he is or what you think of him, is military, and is a far more dangerous enemy, one Kiva would not be likely to make any concessions to.


Best thing she could do would be to pull a Spencer and put us all out of our misery.really? Why would you wish that on anybody?


I think Wray is supposed to be out of her depth and has been pushed into something that is beyond her capacity by her IOA masters. I think she's afraid and homesick and is doing her best. At times, that best is not good enough but one of the points of the 'wrong people' is that they then become the right people. We can see people like Park, Brody and Volker becoming Rush's team whereas they obviously weren't before; I can see Wray becoming the right person and I think Ming-Na is doing a great job showing that.Wray has definitely changed, When Wray had a leadership position in Justice, she was only leading for a short while and her hands were shaking. They weren't shaking in Incursion 2. Sure, it wasn't all on her shoulders, literally, but she, like so many others, is slowly but surely becoming the "right people"

Sami_
June 15th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Wray is weak, far weaker than Young, Kiva knows this and stands more of a chance of getting what she wants from puny, IOA busybody Wray than Young.

Agreed, Wray is very weak, did you notice how rattled she got in Incursion Pt1 when Rush and Young were arguing, she couldn't handle it.

SG7
June 15th, 2010, 02:44 PM
I kind of get the impression Wray was intended to be Weir like in her abilities but to be honest I think we have another example of how brilliant Torri was in SGA. I don't have anything particular against Minga Na or the Wray character, but I just don't think she is pulling it off as well as Torri did. Its all to do with the delivery and presence which Torri gave in spades, but Na just comes across as feeble and irrelevant a lot of the time when she shouldn't.

Perhaps that is how the writers wrote her to be. Maybe they wanted her to act that way and behave in that "unlikeable" way for a reason. If one is comparing Ming to Torri and their characters, then that is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Can't fault the actress if that is how the writers wrote the character. Now if that isn't the case, and she is doing that of her own self then that is different. But I have a feeling TPTB have a certian persona that they want her to portray and she is doing exactly what is expected of her.

Alan Wake
June 15th, 2010, 02:51 PM
It took more guts on Wray's part to walk in there without a gun. Cojones? Say what you want about the woman but you can't really question her bravery.


This is exactly what I was thinking. She doesn't lack guts, that's for sure.

Actually, some people would call that stupid.

She went into a dangerous situation... unprepared, and careless for her own life.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Actually, some people would call that stupid.

She went into a dangerous situation... unprepared, and careless for her own life.

there's often a pretty thin line between brave and stupid with the only deciding factor being the end result.
She was successful - ergo brave and not stupid

Shai Hulud
June 15th, 2010, 02:57 PM
I have a feeling TPTB have a certian persona that they want her to portray and she is doing exactly what is expected of her.

Even if that is the case it doesnt make the character any less annoying. Soylent Green her up.

Alan Wake
June 15th, 2010, 03:00 PM
there's often a pretty thin line between brave and stupid with the only deciding factor being the end result.
She was successful - ergo brave and not stupid

Successful? I'd say more or less lucky they didn't kill her.

Brave would be sacrificing yourself to save your team... which we have numerous examples of throughout Stargate. What she did was far from brave.

The only reason she did that was because she "thought" she was setting an example for the negotiation. She's dealing with a situation she's likely never been in before... and using stuff she probably learned in a classroom... here. No military experience whatever.

It was a careless and stupid mistake letting her go in there. if anything would have happened beyond the talking and trading, she would most likely be dead.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Successful? I'd say more or less lucky they didn't kill her.

Brave would be sacrificing yourself to save your team... which we have numerous examples of throughout Stargate. What she did was far from brave.

The only reason she did that was because she "thought" she was setting an example for the negotiation. She's dealing with a situation she's likely never been in before... and using stuff she probably learned in a classroom... here. No military experience whatever.

It was a careless and stupid mistake letting her go in there. if anything would have happened beyond the talking and trading, she would most likely be dead.

luck, success, 1/2 dozen of one, 6 of the other.
And yes, she's lucky to be alive, but it doesn't make her success any less for having a bit of luck on her side.
For all of everything you've said, she did not end up dead, and ended up with three rescued civilians, food for the hostages, and a chance to save the whole ship. Not bad for a lucky break, eh?
As for being stupid for letting her go in the first place, not taking up the opportunity when it presents itself? It would be stupid not to try.
As for being brave, you can't have it both ways. By your reckoning, she DID put her life on the line by going in there at all. You can't turn around and claim that she's not brave because she hasn't made a sacrifice. Not all brave acts have to end up in death in order to be brave.

PTree
June 15th, 2010, 05:48 PM
Perhaps that is how the writers wrote her to be. Maybe they wanted her to act that way and behave in that "unlikeable" way for a reason.

That's the problem I have with the Wray character and most of the SGU characters. The writers have made most of them so flawed that I don't like or care about them, save Greer and maybe T.J.

Phenom
June 16th, 2010, 01:36 AM
I don't think the writers have written Wray that way. The lines she says aren't the problem. She is a top level civilian leader who is a very competent woman in her chosen career. I don't think the intention was for her to be a top level manager who would appear physicallly feeble and weak onscreen. An example would be the 'torture' scene the other week where she was jumping around like a little yappy dog at Scott and Young's heels trying to get some information. They just shooed her away like a blow fly. That wouldn't have appeared as bad had she had more screen presence. Anyway thats just my observation and it is a completely subjective topic which, as with Elliie's thoughts, can be different for everyone.

Alan Wake
June 16th, 2010, 01:38 AM
That's the problem I have with the Wray character and most of the SGU characters. The writers have made most of them so flawed that I don't like or care about them, save Greer and maybe T.J.

We know little, if anything about T.J's character... so she may very well be flawed like everyone else.

Shai Hulud
June 16th, 2010, 01:44 AM
We know little, if anything about T.J's character... so she may very well be flawed like everyone else.

We know that she is not above having an affair with her commanding officer, a married man. She's no angel.

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 01:49 AM
So what if their not perfect? They have to be perfect for us to care about them? I don't think I've ever agreed with a thing Wray has done and in my opinion she has done a bunch of stupid things. That said I still care whether she lives or dies and would prefer her to live.

Lahela
June 16th, 2010, 02:58 AM
So what if their not perfect? They have to be perfect for us to care about them? I don't think I've ever agreed with a thing Wray has done and in my opinion she has done a bunch of stupid things. That said I still care whether she lives or dies and would prefer her to live.

Agreed.

I think their lack of perfection makes me care more, if anything. Perfect heroes never die or are even injured for more than 42 minutes, they never face the consequences of their actions, everything is forgiven and forgotten by the next episode. Here, though, mistakes or whatever are remembered, addressed in later episodes and the people who make them are not automatically redeemed simply by dint of being the heroes. That makes me care more about what they do because I know there will be fallout.

EllieVee
June 16th, 2010, 03:58 AM
We know little, if anything about T.J's character... so she may very well be flawed like everyone else.

Well, she had an affair with her CO, which she knew was against regs.

Phenom
June 16th, 2010, 04:10 AM
Well, she had an affair with her CO, which she knew was against regs.

You can't tie down true love you know...regs smegs!!

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 16th, 2010, 07:38 AM
Agreed.

I think their lack of perfection makes me care more, if anything. Perfect heroes never die or are even injured for more than 42 minutes, they never face the consequences of their actions, everything is forgiven and forgotten by the next episode. Here, though, mistakes or whatever are remembered, addressed in later episodes and the people who make them are not automatically redeemed simply by dint of being the heroes. That makes me care more about what they do because I know there will be fallout.

I too find that I care about flawed characters more and that I can relate to them more. I've made mistakes, we all have, and seeing these normal people make mistakes and still manage to do what they do is inspiring in a way that perfect and superheroey can never do for me. Wray's no different here. She's made mistakes but keeps trying anyway.

PTree
June 16th, 2010, 07:51 AM
So what if their not perfect? They have to be perfect for us to care about them? I don't think I've ever agreed with a thing Wray has done and in my opinion she has done a bunch of stupid things. That said I still care whether she lives or dies and would prefer her to live.

No, they don't have to be perfect for us to care about them, but they have to have something in them that makes me want to care, and right now, most of them don't.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
June 16th, 2010, 08:00 AM
Too bad Atlantis killed off elizabeth weir considering weirs background she wouldve been perfect to negoiate with kiva.

EllieVee
June 16th, 2010, 09:30 PM
Too bad Atlantis killed off elizabeth weir considering weirs background she wouldve been perfect to negoiate with kiva.

Cos she did so well with someone like Kolya.

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Lets face it the only person who could really sucessfully negotiate with Kiva would've been a Replicator or an Ascended being. And the only way they would be sucessful is that they don't negotiate and would just flat up kill Kiva and the entire LA the moment she wouldn't ascede to their demands. Basically the same thing Kiva did, she didn't negotiate, she gave demands and that was it.

JustAnotherVoice
June 17th, 2010, 12:05 AM
Lets face it the only person who could really sucessfully negotiate with Kiva would've been a Replicator or an Ascended being. And the only way they would be sucessful is that they don't negotiate and would just flat up kill Kiva and the entire LA the moment she wouldn't ascede to their demands. Basically the same thing Kiva did, she didn't negotiate, she gave demands and that was it.

This is exactly why most sensible governments don't deal with terrorists. It's always about "me me me!" I'm glad Wray thought she had more sense than politicians from across the planet.

Phenom
June 18th, 2010, 02:58 AM
Lets face it the only person who could really sucessfully negotiate with Kiva would've been a Replicator or an Ascended being. And the only way they would be sucessful is that they don't negotiate and would just flat up kill Kiva and the entire LA the moment she wouldn't ascede to their demands. Basically the same thing Kiva did, she didn't negotiate, she gave demands and that was it.

Thankfully, real hostage negotiators don't share your attitude. To be honest, this post could not be further from the truth. Kiva would be extremely easy to negotiate with as she is actually capable of holding a rational conversation. Try negotiating with a guy who is locked in his house holding a gun to his baby and girlfriend's head. Who do you think is more rational? Kiva or the crazy dude with the gun. Negotiators don't just give up talking to the crazy dude because he is crazy.

Buck32
June 18th, 2010, 03:45 AM
I was waiting for them to use the stones to bring in a real hostage negotiator, i mean they've been so stone happy all season i didn't think they'd miss such a golden opportunity!!!!

Buck32
June 18th, 2010, 03:45 AM
I was waiting for them to use the stones to bring in a real hostage negotiator, i mean they've been so stone happy all season i didn't think they'd miss such a golden opportunity!!!!

garhkal
June 18th, 2010, 06:34 AM
Actually, some people would call that stupid.

She went into a dangerous situation... unprepared, and careless for her own life.

And she did it for some 'sembalance' of trust for a person rush could have easily told her is as untrustworthy as a snake.


luck, success, 1/2 dozen of one, 6 of the other.
And yes, she's lucky to be alive, but it doesn't make her success any less for having a bit of luck on her side.
For all of everything you've said, she did not end up dead, and ended up with three rescued civilians, food for the hostages, and a chance to save the whole ship. Not bad for a lucky break, eh?
As for being stupid for letting her go in the first place, not taking up the opportunity when it presents itself? It would be stupid not to try.
As for being brave, you can't have it both ways. By your reckoning, she DID put her life on the line by going in there at all. You can't turn around and claim that she's not brave because she hasn't made a sacrifice. Not all brave acts have to end up in death in order to be brave.

Well seeing how things ended up i would rather she had not been lucky and did not do that. Heck, i am sure that rush and co could have figured out another way to get those guys out side.
But i will give you that she exhibited some bravery.


You can't tie down true love you know...regs smegs!!

As was said in one of our lectures on fraternization, if one cannot be trusted enough to follow the regs/rules when it suits ones purpose, how can someone trust you period?

GateroomGuard
June 18th, 2010, 05:53 PM
Thankfully, real hostage negotiators don't share your attitude. To be honest, this post could not be further from the truth. Kiva would be extremely easy to negotiate with as she is actually capable of holding a rational conversation. Try negotiating with a guy who is locked in his house holding a gun to his baby and girlfriend's head. Who do you think is more rational? Kiva or the crazy dude with the gun. Negotiators don't just give up talking to the crazy dude because he is crazy.

Are we talking about the same Kiva here? The same Kiva who had her top scientist murdered just to make a point to her prisoner? The same Kiva who had Rush dial to Destiny even though he said it would destroy her base? The same Kiva who was ready to kill hostages, including a pregnant woman, 10 seconds after the first engagement simply to send a message? The same Kiva who gave a corpse as a hostage? The same Kiva who was willing to let Destiny be destroyed along with all her people if she couldn't have control? If she is rational I'm even more terrified. Because if she is that commitied to either total undeniable victory for her or EVERYONE dies and is a rational actor then she is utterly terrifying.

How do you plan on negotiating with someone who basically tells you. "I'd rather all of us be dead than me not be in charge." You can't negotiate with someone who won't negotiate! When did Kiva negotiate!? When did she compromise!? She went with the hostage swap only so she could get her men back and give the finger to Wray and Young.

Please tell me what 'real life hostage negotiators' would do when they are dealing with someone like Kiva someone who tells you 'Let me win or everyone including me and my people die." There's no negotiating you either say yes and let Kiva take those 'real life hostage negotiators' hostage along with EVERYONE ELSE or you say no and you all die. You want to negotiate compromise? Kiva will do just what she did with Wray and tell her to shut up.

When real life hostage negotiators deal with crazy guys hold up in their house the stakes aren't "Surrender yourself and the entire state to me or I let everyone die" This wasn't a hostage crisis, this wasn't something a hostage negotiator should deal with. Kiva wanted a surrender and would rather let everyone on that ship die than accept anything less. Negotiations gained absolutely nothing this episode.

Phenom
June 18th, 2010, 09:07 PM
Are we talking about the same Kiva here? The same Kiva who had her top scientist murdered just to make a point to her prisoner? The same Kiva who had Rush dial to Destiny even though he said it would destroy her base? The same Kiva who was ready to kill hostages, including a pregnant woman, 10 seconds after the first engagement simply to send a message? The same Kiva who gave a corpse as a hostage? The same Kiva who was willing to let Destiny be destroyed along with all her people if she couldn't have control? If she is rational I'm even more terrified. Because if she is that commitied to either total undeniable victory for her or EVERYONE dies and is a rational actor then she is utterly terrifying.

How do you plan on negotiating with someone who basically tells you. "I'd rather all of us be dead than me not be in charge." You can't negotiate with someone who won't negotiate! When did Kiva negotiate!? When did she compromise!? She went with the hostage swap only so she could get her men back and give the finger to Wray and Young.

Please tell me what 'real life hostage negotiators' would do when they are dealing with someone like Kiva someone who tells you 'Let me win or everyone including me and my people die." There's no negotiating you either say yes and let Kiva take those 'real life hostage negotiators' hostage along with EVERYONE ELSE or you say no and you all die. You want to negotiate compromise? Kiva will do just what she did with Wray and tell her to shut up.

When real life hostage negotiators deal with crazy guys hold up in their house the stakes aren't "Surrender yourself and the entire state to me or I let everyone die" This wasn't a hostage crisis, this wasn't something a hostage negotiator should deal with. Kiva wanted a surrender and would rather let everyone on that ship die than accept anything less. Negotiations gained absolutely nothing this episode.

Kiva has a narcissistic personality and needs to feel that she is in control. It is actually quite a common scenario to have people like this in a situation similar to this, such as a prison riot.

What you need to understand is what we saw on screen was the very early stages of an incident. Probably only several hours at the most. These sort of jobs sometimes take days or even weeks to resolve, with several teams of negotiators used in conjunction with other tactical options. I am not saying she would hand herself up in a few hours, but time is the best friend of a negotiator and the enemy of the subject. She can be all mad and full of huff and puff for as long as she can mentally do it, but everyone has a breaking point and that is when the real discussions take place.

In relation to Kiva telling Wray to 'shut up' and the like. Bear in mind that much worse things are said by subjects most of the time, and often they will just scream and shout for hours with no intelligent conversation possible for quite some time until things can calm down.

I can certainly see how you would think that Kiva is a no win battle, but dealing with this type of person is actually quite common.

GateroomGuard
June 19th, 2010, 06:59 PM
Kiva has a narcissistic personality and needs to feel that she is in control. It is actually quite a common scenario to have people like this in a situation similar to this, such as a prison riot.

What you need to understand is what we saw on screen was the very early stages of an incident. Probably only several hours at the most. These sort of jobs sometimes take days or even weeks to resolve, with several teams of negotiators used in conjunction with other tactical options. I am not saying she would hand herself up in a few hours, but time is the best friend of a negotiator and the enemy of the subject. She can be all mad and full of huff and puff for as long as she can mentally do it, but everyone has a breaking point and that is when the real discussions take place.

In relation to Kiva telling Wray to 'shut up' and the like. Bear in mind that much worse things are said by subjects most of the time, and often they will just scream and shout for hours with no intelligent conversation possible for quite some time until things can calm down.

I can certainly see how you would think that Kiva is a no win battle, but dealing with this type of person is actually quite common.

But time is what the Destiny crew doesn't have. They can't deal with a hostile force controlling the gate and a good portion of the ship for weeks. This isn't like a situation where the police and the hostage negotiators have the enemy surrounded. In those cases the police have a completely open supply line while the enemy only can get supplies through the police and the negotiators. They have control.

With what we have on Destiny this would be if the enemy surrounded the police station and the police and the negotiators were trapped, sure they have supplies inside but only so much. The enemy is then in control.

Kiva had the stargate, she had an escape and a supply line, she had the Destiny crew under siege. She knew all she had to do was wait Young and Wray out and eventually they would run out of supplies, or in the case of the pulsar they would all die. Kiva was willing to sacrifice everyone so she could have control of Destiny, all she had to do was wait. She didn't have to have Wray make her feel she had control, Kiva already was in control.

I respect your opinion but I just can't see how negotiations would have any real effect on Destiny with the situation they are in. Time is not on the Destiny crew's side. If the pulsar hadn't shown up then I would grant negotiations would have a chance, but with the pulsar all Kiva had to do was play chicken and wait for Young to swerve.

garhkal
June 19th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Agreed. I can only see one response from an earth based negotiator to kiva.. "FULL BREACH!

Tuvok
June 19th, 2010, 11:24 PM
I think Wray problem is that she doesn't grasp her situation as a whole.

The rule of order and reason. One she takes for granted no longer applies. She makes assumption on how things should be run. Leading to her conflicts with the military as a whole.

She makes an assumption that Kiva would abide by the rules and reason that she Wray believes in.

She assumed wrong.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 20th, 2010, 10:44 AM
I think Wray problem is that she doesn't grasp her situation as a whole.

The rule of order and reason. One she takes for granted no longer applies. She makes assumption on how things should be run. Leading to her conflicts with the military as a whole.

She makes an assumption that Kiva would abide by the rules and reason that she Wray believes in.

She assumed wrong.Yep, this. She's not in the office where things can be resolved with a committee meeting and everyone's reasonable because they're all operating with the same rules. It puts her at a terrible disadvantage and there's something in her face that shows that when Kiva trades a dead soldier, that these aren't the rules she expected. To tie that in with her negotiating skills, I don;t believe it affects her ability to negotiate, but I do think it's got to be a shock to her to see that her set of rules and her sense of her universe aren't the same as the one she's currently living in. I hope that it has her readjust her beliefs, especially about Young and Young's way of doing things, as the alternatives may be a hell of a lot worse.

Phenom
June 20th, 2010, 04:50 PM
But time is what the Destiny crew doesn't have. They can't deal with a hostile force controlling the gate and a good portion of the ship for weeks. This isn't like a situation where the police and the hostage negotiators have the enemy surrounded. In those cases the police have a completely open supply line while the enemy only can get supplies through the police and the negotiators. They have control.

With what we have on Destiny this would be if the enemy surrounded the police station and the police and the negotiators were trapped, sure they have supplies inside but only so much. The enemy is then in control.

Kiva had the stargate, she had an escape and a supply line, she had the Destiny crew under siege. She knew all she had to do was wait Young and Wray out and eventually they would run out of supplies, or in the case of the pulsar they would all die. Kiva was willing to sacrifice everyone so she could have control of Destiny, all she had to do was wait. She didn't have to have Wray make her feel she had control, Kiva already was in control.

I respect your opinion but I just can't see how negotiations would have any real effect on Destiny with the situation they are in. Time is not on the Destiny crew's side. If the pulsar hadn't shown up then I would grant negotiations would have a chance, but with the pulsar all Kiva had to do was play chicken and wait for Young to swerve.


I may not have been clear enough with my explanation. I was trying to explain in response to the many posts throughout this thread that negotiating with subjects such as Kiva is actually quite common. However I completely agree with you that sometimes the situation changes to the point where more tactical options may be needed, which is pretty much where the crew are now on Destiny.

Very rarely would a large scale negotiation job be conducted without some sort of tactical option being used in conjunction (i.e Turn power/water off, shine bright lights into target premises, loud noises and other stuff to annoy) but on what we saw and the pretty limited information we have about the situation, they would have needed to start trying different things (as obviously nobody was really up to the negotiation task). Can't say I really agree with the Greer medic thing...I don't really know what the plan was with that one!

GateroomGuard
June 20th, 2010, 05:08 PM
Can't say I really agree with the Greer medic thing...I don't really know what the plan was with that one!

Youngs train of thought.
1. Greer dresses like medic.
2. Greer shoots Kiva
3. something happens here...
4. We win.

Young had three out of 4 steps planned out we have to give him some credit, he probably was hoping Greer's awesomeness would somehow solve the crisis. :P

Phenom
June 20th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Youngs train of thought.
1. Greer dresses like medic.
2. Greer shoots Kiva
3. something happens here...
4. We win.

Young had three out of 4 steps planned out we have to give him some credit, he probably was hoping Greer's awesomeness would somehow solve the crisis. :P

It was the military plan version of 'yada yada yada'....

I reckon Young's briefing was a little like this....
yeah Greer lets put you in a polo shirt, just try not to look quite as tough as usual, then *whispers inaudible things quietly to himself*, then after that just open the doors and let us in. Any questions?

GateroomGuard
June 20th, 2010, 06:49 PM
It was the military plan version of 'yada yada yada'....

I reckon Young's briefing was a little like this....
yeah Greer lets put you in a polo shirt, just try not to look quite as tough as usual, then *whispers inaudible things quietly to himself*, then after that just open the doors and let us in. Any questions?

Yeah I think at some point in Incursion Young just gave up on plans and just started shooting for a deus ex machina or a maguffin. After all with O'Neill in charge of the SGC now I can see his lessons to new commanders basically being this.
"So no matter what happens, 40 minutes into whatever mess your in your scientist is going to start talking science bable and then your problems will go away, or your smart guy will do the same. Basically no matter what you do you won't get anything done till the last minute so just have fun until then."

Tuvok
June 20th, 2010, 09:03 PM
Yeah I think at some point in Incursion Young just gave up on plans and just started shooting for a deus ex machina or a maguffin. After all with O'Neill in charge of the SGC now I can see his lessons to new commanders basically being this.
"So no matter what happens, 40 minutes into whatever mess your in your scientist is going to start talking science bable and then your problems will go away, or your smart guy will do the same. Basically no matter what you do you won't get anything done till the last minute so just have fun until then."

Oh God, that sounds so like O'neill Advanced tactics and counter tactics 101

Green for you ( I Hope)

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 08:16 AM
I may not have been clear enough with my explanation. I was trying to explain in response to the many posts throughout this thread that negotiating with subjects such as Kiva is actually quite common. However I completely agree with you that sometimes the situation changes to the point where more tactical options may be needed, which is pretty much where the crew are now on Destiny.

Very rarely would a large scale negotiation job be conducted without some sort of tactical option being used in conjunction (i.e Turn power/water off, shine bright lights into target premises, loud noises and other stuff to annoy) but on what we saw and the pretty limited information we have about the situation, they would have needed to start trying different things (as obviously nobody was really up to the negotiation task). Can't say I really agree with the Greer medic thing...I don't really know what the plan was with that one!Yeah, this is basically "don't put all your eggs into one basket". Negotiation is an option, but it's just one option; there's no way it would be solely relied upon.


Youngs train of thought.
1. Greer dresses like medic.
2. Greer shoots Kiva
3. something happens here...
4. We win.

Young had three out of 4 steps planned out we have to give him some credit, he probably was hoping Greer's awesomeness would somehow solve the crisis. :PIf it got TJ safely out of reach of Kiva (and didn't risk all the other hostages getting killed), yeah, I can see that. I think that red shirt might have been kryptonite for Greer, partially shielding his awesomeness, or it all would have worked out differently :)


Yeah I think at some point in Incursion Young just gave up on plans and just started shooting for a deus ex machina or a maguffin. After all with O'Neill in charge of the SGC now I can see his lessons to new commanders basically being this.
"So no matter what happens, 40 minutes into whatever mess your in your scientist is going to start talking science bable and then your problems will go away, or your smart guy will do the same. Basically no matter what you do you won't get anything done till the last minute so just have fun until then.":lol: Attempt at greening has failed, so it'll have to be the mental variety, mental green that is :)

Kelara
June 21st, 2010, 08:26 AM
Oh God, that sounds so like O'neill Advanced tactics and counter tactics 101


Yep. Except Jack would include the lesson on making sure your geek and your smart guy actually had your back ;).

Because with all the "they are in an unusual situation" blabla we are kind of forgetting that this situation has lasted for a few months now (judging by "the belly" ;)). And no matter what angle I try to look at Incursion from, their chances would have been better if everyone had started to work together some time along the way there :( (and not gone from outright opposition to subversion and on to ignorance of the other... be it Young or Rush or Wray... or whoever). Maybe Jack should come do a teambuilding 101 for the Destiny folks ;).

GateroomGuard
June 21st, 2010, 03:58 PM
Yep. Except Jack would include the lesson on making sure your geek and your smart guy actually had your back ;).

"Now some of you may be asking how you can be sure your geek and smart guy will perform. There are three easy ways to make sure. 1. Yell their name loudly and repeatedly, it's a gurantee. 2. Threaten them with lemons, I've heard Shepard say this is a surefire to. 3. Just wait they'll always save you at the last minute anyway."


...Maybe Jack should come do a teambuilding 101 for the Destiny folks ;).

O'Neill, "Now I know you military folks don't care for the civillians and they don't care for you either. And none of you care for these Lucian Alliance guys. But you all have to work together if your going to survive. So I'm going to pair you all up into teams to work together. Now you have your teams now get to know them because our next step is sending you all into a dangerous offworld mission just minutes after meeting.

Greer, "Won't we all just get killed since were being forced to trust people we hate on a mission that requires trust and teamwork?"

O'Neill, "No. By going on a dangerous mission you'll all learn through all the danger and adventure, along with a lot of fun, to become not just a team but friends that will last the ages."

Greer, "....How did you become a general again?"

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 04:39 PM
"Now some of you may be asking how you can be sure your geek and smart guy will perform. There are three easy ways to make sure. 1. Yell their name loudly and repeatedly, it's a gurantee. 2. Threaten them with lemons, I've heard Shepard say this is a surefire to. 3. Just wait they'll always save you at the last minute anyway."



O'Neill, "Now I know you military folks don't care for the civillians and they don't care for you either. And none of you care for these Lucian Alliance guys. But you all have to work together if your going to survive. So I'm going to pair you all up into teams to work together. Now you have your teams now get to know them because our next step is sending you all into a dangerous offworld mission just minutes after meeting.

Greer, "Won't we all just get killed since were being forced to trust people we hate on a mission that requires trust and teamwork?"

O'Neill, "No. By going on a dangerous mission you'll all learn through all the danger and adventure, along with a lot of fun, to become not just a team but friends that will last the ages."

Greer, "....How did you become a general again?"

...and then they can build a giant tower of furniture....
(cookies to whoever gets the reference :D)

Tuvok
June 21st, 2010, 04:51 PM
...and then they can build a giant tower of furniture....
(cookies to whoever gets the reference :D)

X-files of course.

I would like Peanut brownie.

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 21st, 2010, 05:04 PM
X-files of course.

I would like Peanut brownie.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/XXXevilgrinXXX/other%20stuff/c7f3f40e.jpg
:D

jmoz
June 21st, 2010, 05:10 PM
Steals cookies. Runs.

Tuvok
June 21st, 2010, 11:22 PM
Steals cookies. Runs.

Noooooo...the Cookie.

Sigh.

Would have gone stright to my thighs anyway.

Unwraps a jerky stick and starts chewing.

Kelara
June 22nd, 2010, 01:09 AM
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/XXXevilgrinXXX/other%20stuff/c7f3f40e.jpg
:D

Great, now you made me crave brownies... and derail this thread even more *sigh* :).

Edit: Green for GateroomGuards O'Neill "Teambuilding 101" rendition. Spot on :D.

Sami_
June 23rd, 2010, 12:42 AM
Yep, this. She's not in the office where things can be resolved with a committee meeting and everyone's reasonable because they're all operating with the same rules. It puts her at a terrible disadvantage and there's something in her face that shows that when Kiva trades a dead soldier, that these aren't the rules she expected. To tie that in with her negotiating skills, I don;t believe it affects her ability to negotiate, but I do think it's got to be a shock to her to see that her set of rules and her sense of her universe aren't the same as the one she's currently living in. I hope that it has her readjust her beliefs, especially about Young and Young's way of doing things, as the alternatives may be a hell of a lot worse.

Very well put sir.

Phenom
July 8th, 2010, 04:29 AM
Very well put sir.

That comment reminds me of an SG1 ep I watched the other day where Walter calls Sam 'sir'.

zbgb
October 9th, 2010, 06:29 PM
The thing I cannot stand about Wray and people like her in real life is their arrogance and egos. She is a human resources manager and she thinks she has the abilities and the right to be in charge on an Alien space ship in the middle of nowhere. She should shut up and learn some useful skills from those who have them. Same with Chloe.

I like airplanes but I know better than to assume I can pilot a 747 for example. People like Wray would insist on sitting at the controls out of ego and kill everyone as she crashed the thing into the ground. They are unwilling to admit they are not as important and able as they imagine themselves to be. Intelligent and useful people recognize their limitations and are not ruled by their egos.

Shadow_7
October 10th, 2010, 04:25 AM
The one thing that I like about SGU is that everyone who's been in command has lost someone under THEIR command. Young, too many to count now, but given the duration, better odds than the other options. Wray lost the guy who got attacked by the water bugs. In less than a day.

And now Rush lost a shuttle and Riley. Although he probably feels worse about losing the shuttle. And he wasn't technically in command, he just made some command decisions. Next up Telford...

As far as Wrays skills. They only work where there's some sort of understanding. A common language (english). And rules and honorable intentions to follow them. Which was/is probably the ONLY time she'll be able to do that for the ENTIRE series. Not that big picture wise it mattered or accomplished anything.

garhkal
October 11th, 2010, 12:23 AM
Actually. t was TJ who was in charge when that guy got shredded by the water bugs.