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Azzers
June 11th, 2010, 10:48 PM
I actually do not have thoughts on this topic or a major variety, but I did realize upon rewatch that her conversation with Eli may be considered slightly ambiguous.

Do we think she knows how Eli feels and accepts that? Do we think she knows how Eli feels and fearing she's at the end, wants him to know that she felt it too?

I really like what they've done here because it's actually very realistic. I have a friend who I had a rough approximation of this conversation (obviously less bleeding) and we've always been friends. This is just a pure speculation thread rather than a shipping thread.

Mevi
June 11th, 2010, 11:08 PM
Do we think she knows how Eli feels and accepts that? Do we think she knows how Eli feels and fearing she's at the end, wants him to know that she felt it too?

I think it was plain as day - she said that she wants him to know that she thinks he is a really great guy and friend, and that she isn't interested, but isn't just being a superficial friend. Eli, on the other hand, has feelings, and she knows it, so she acknowledged them. Hopefully this will get it out of the way so the characters can grow instead of walking around angsty all the time. Much like O'Neil in Doppleganger of SG-1 - he had to get over those feelings.

d10sfan
June 11th, 2010, 11:16 PM
Yea, seemed like she does wants to be a true friend with him. She knows a bit more about him than she let on earlier, where Eli seemed to think that she was ignoring him with the "friendzoned" stuff.

Gollumpus
June 11th, 2010, 11:22 PM
I think Chloe has always been quite clear. Her feelings towards Eli are that she loves him (as a friend, brother, a war-buddy), however she is not in love with him.

She understands his feelings towards her, but she has never done anything to give him an impression that she felt otherwise. (Yes, she did use his feelings towards her to distract him during the insurrection, however, she did not do anything in that sequence which suggested her feelings for him had changed. She merely showed up which was enough to distract him.)

I believe Eli has now come to terms with the situation in that "...of course you do" moment, and has accepted that they will never be an item. I believe Eli will continue to be devoted to Chloe, however, he will move on in his relationships. I suspect that Eli will be portrayed as being more mature from this point. He will still have his comic relief moments, but he will lose a lot of the sophomore humor.

regards,
G.

BomB191
June 12th, 2010, 01:37 AM
it could also be that she indeed dose love Eli BUT dose not want to bail on Scot being stuck on a ship and what not

Vapor
June 12th, 2010, 02:35 AM
... I'd just like to say that this gives me a certain satisfaction because of all the people who seemed to think that Chloe spent the entire season using and abusing Eli's feelings.

I suppose some people could still come up with an argument as to why she might still have been doing that, but I think the scene was pretty clear in its intention to state that she has not taken his friendship for granted, and in fact, she values it as something so precious that she literally has never felt it before.

Chloe loves Eli, but not in a romantic sense. She knows he feels something more, and she may never be able to return that kind of emotion, but she would never dismiss his feelings either. This was an excellent scene, in my opinion.

Wayston
June 12th, 2010, 03:24 AM
It was clear that she likes him as a friend. It's quite realistic really. He went out of his way to please her and take care of her throughout the season but in the end she like most other women will fall for a hotshot like Scott. She didn't really abuse Eli in that she never played around with his feelings, it's just that Eli loved her so much and took real good care knowing he shouldn't expect anything more than her company. I feel sad for Eli.

TraK
June 12th, 2010, 04:10 AM
This scene was so emotional and made me cry, just as chloe was. I really connected with this scene because i have experienced something similar many times myself, me being in Eli's position. This scene brought all those memories and emotions back

MattSilver 3k
June 12th, 2010, 04:26 AM
Chloe's line, "Why do you always react as if I've given a runner-up prize?" was a highlight for me.

Atlanis
June 12th, 2010, 05:02 AM
Cholie is a user at least for the most of the season and this last scene gives me hope that she's comming out of her using and abusing Eli's feelings ways or mabye not

garhkal
June 12th, 2010, 05:09 AM
Chloe's line, "Why do you always react as if I've given a runner-up prize?" was a highlight for me.

It did make me wonder if she is now regretting using him before as she now sees how devoted to her as he is.

bobsuncorp
June 12th, 2010, 05:15 AM
I think the point Chloe made about never having a true friend is a valid one. It may be that at first she was "using" him, but if so then that is simply because that is the only type of friendship she has any experience with. Now she knows better and sees him as a true friend, someone who's feelings matter to her. She hasn't lied to him, she hasn't led him on, and she has made it clear how much he means to her. Unfortunately for Eli, that devotion does not include attraction, but with a lifetime of experience (like many of us) I think he will get over it.

Coronach
June 12th, 2010, 05:26 AM
I don't understand the "using and abusing" things that Chloe has apparently done, but I really enjoyed this scene as well. And I agree with MattSilver 3K in that that line was a very good one. It really made me realize how much Chloe values his friendship (as she's stated on multiple occasions) and I think it helped Eli realize that she doesn't have romantic feelings for him...but that her friendship is not a consolation prize. :)

pipi
June 12th, 2010, 07:00 AM
BFF set in concrete. May this new galaxy bless Eli with alien babes or at least in his dreams.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 07:36 AM
Cholie is a user at least for the most of the season and this last scene gives me hope that she's comming out of her using and abusing Eli's feelings ways or mabye not

Huh? Its not Chloe's fault that Eli has a crush on her. I've never seen her use that feelings to get what she wants

Kaiphantom
June 12th, 2010, 08:12 AM
The thing is, we've seen why Chloe values Eli. But I haven't seen any real touching/bonding scene between Chloe and Scott... so why are they an item again? Oh yeah, Hollywood romance. Gotta have the good looking chick and good looking guy hook up. God forbid they actually do something edgier and hook the good looking girl up with the devoted nerd.

I can actually see the closeness between Eli and Chloe. I can't see any between Chloe and Scott; it's more of an informed ability. "Oh yeah, they're an item, but um, we're not really gonna set up why or how. Just run with it."

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 12th, 2010, 08:32 AM
I think that she knows that Eli loves her. I think that, for Chloe, friendship is really the first prize, and Scott didn't get that, Eli did. When she's talking about all the friends that she thought that she had but didn't, I couldn't help but think about a scene with Eli and Chloe in Time, where he's talking about never having had a best friend. Scott will never really be that for her; it's Eli that she values more than anything. Every time she said friend, Eli's face fell a little more, but the way she said friend? Friend ranks higher than lover for her.

MattSilver 3k
June 12th, 2010, 08:55 AM
But I haven't seen any real touching/bonding scene between Chloe and Scott... so why are they an item again? God forbid they actually do something edgier and hook the good looking girl up with the devoted nerd.

Air Part 2, Scott comforting her about her dad's death. Air Part 3 end, Chloe bringing Scott water after his desert trip. Little things from there on solidifying their relationshipness to me- his reaction to her death in Time (And their flirty banter earlier), them together in Space, chatting about her nightmares in Divided, his concern for her here in the finale... It's there.

And I'll bet anything that it's deliberately jarring so as to highlight the Eli/Chloe stuff more. Sort of elongate the drama in that relationship a bit as long as Scott's around with Chloe.

mparsons1981
June 12th, 2010, 09:08 AM
The idea that any of these characters are in love with each other is rubbish. The are just reacting to the remarkable circumstances they find themselves in.

Chloe found sexual comfort in the big strong arms of the military man, cause her father had just died, she cannot think for herself and is a big wimp.

In normal circumstances she would have more than likely ended up with eli, because scott is a ******.

But hey its all fiction.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 09:12 AM
The idea that any of these characters are in love with each other is rubbish. The are just reacting to the remarkable circumstances they find themselves in.

Chloe found sexual comfort in the big strong arms of the military man, cause her father had just died, she cannot think for herself and is a big wimp.

In normal circumstances she would have more than likely ended up with eli, because scott is a ******.

But hey its all fiction.

I always saw it more of relating to another because they both have gone through simliar past experence. As for in real life I want to know where you live. I rarely see the girl go for the social outcast:P

magictrick
June 12th, 2010, 09:15 AM
The thing is, we've seen why Chloe values Eli. But I haven't seen any real touching/bonding scene between Chloe and Scott... so why are they an item again? Oh yeah, Hollywood romance. Gotta have the good looking chick and good looking guy hook up. God forbid they actually do something edgier and hook the good looking girl up with the devoted nerd.

In all fairness, in SGA they had Keller hook up with McKay instead of Ronon so that was different. Of course it turned out to be terrible for the show but at least they went that different route.

I think Chloe made it clear that she just values him as a friend. With that said, I have yet to see Chloe and Scott share any emotional moments. Maybe 1 or 2, but none have come close to the interactions between Chloe and Eli. Doesn't even explain how Chloe and Scott got together in the first place.

I'm still rooting for Eli.

MattSilver 3k
June 12th, 2010, 09:15 AM
The idea that any of these characters are in love with each other is rubbish. The are just reacting to the remarkable circumstances they find themselves in.

Chloe found sexual comfort in the big strong arms of the military man, cause her father had just died, she cannot think for herself and is a big wimp.

In normal circumstances she would have more than likely ended up with eli, because scott is a ******.

But hey its all fiction.

But hey you're just a buzzkill to yourself.

SupremeLegate
June 12th, 2010, 09:16 AM
The way I took it was that she knew how he felt about her, which when your crushing on someone it is nice to know that they know how you feel about them. Second, while she only sees him as a friend that does not mean that she does not care about him just as much as she cares about Scott, just in a different way.

Now while I still hope that one day she will realize that she feels for Eli what he feels for her, Season 3 or 4 maybe, I can live with things as they are now. And I will smile as Scott remains completely and utterly oblivious.

On a side note: I do not think that Chloe distracted Eli in “Divided,” as she pointed out she did not even know when it was going to happen. And I think how desperate she was for Eli to know that in “Faith” proves that she was not using how he feels about her to distract him.

But that is what I believe, and will continue to believe. Anyone else can believe what ever they wish to believe.


The thing is, we've seen why Chloe values Eli. But I haven't seen any real touching/bonding scene between Chloe and Scott... so why are they an item again? Oh yeah, Hollywood romance. Gotta have the good looking chick and good looking guy hook up. God forbid they actually do something edgier and hook the good looking girl up with the devoted nerd.

I can actually see the closeness between Eli and Chloe. I can't see any between Chloe and Scott; it's more of an informed ability. "Oh yeah, they're an item, but um, we're not really gonna set up why or how. Just run with it."

I think the lack of a solid foundation for their relationship, which to me basically consists of “We both know what it feels like to lose a parent, lets shake up,” will be handled more in season 2. At least if what I have read in interviews is any indication.


Chloe's line, "Why do you always react as if I've given a runner-up prize?" was a highlight for me.

Yeah, I think she made it pretty clear that while he did not get the first prize he wanted, he did get a first prize.


it could also be that she indeed dose love Eli BUT dose not want to bail on Scot being stuck on a ship and what not

Personally I think she actually does love them both, just in different ways.

mparsons1981
June 12th, 2010, 09:19 AM
Well hes not really a social outcast, but i understand what u mean. My point is that Eli and Chloe have much more in common, and they would develop from a great friendship to love over time i believe. Chloe and Scott is all about physical attraction, there is nothing else there, and that wont last.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 09:40 AM
Well hes not really a social outcast, but i understand what u mean. My point is that Eli and Chloe have much more in common, and they would develop from a great friendship to love over time i believe. Chloe and Scott is all about physical attraction, there is nothing else there, and that wont last.

I wouldn't say that far. Its not just physical attraction. Obviously that is probably a huge part of it but I think their is a little more to it. After all of Chloe's talk about regretting her shallow friends I don't think she is going for something so shallow

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 09:51 AM
When she's talking about all the friends that she thought that she had but didn't, I couldn't help but think about a scene with Eli and Chloe in Time, where he's talking about never having had a best friend. Scott will never really be that for her;

That is a good catch, I missed the symmetry entirely.

As for "has she ever used Eli?" I don't think in the romantic sense she has. But I do think she came extremely close to it in "Divided." And I think she knew it too, after the fact. Which is why she's trying to repair the relationship after that episode.

I say this about romantic and non-romantic love. The lines can blur over time, so I don't read too much into any one scene. Things change, constantly.

And the truth is, they can not STAY best friends forever. Maybe on the ship... but any relationship Chloe has with another man (even if Eli is comfortable with it), most of those men will NOT be. I think we already see that with Scott. He seems upset that Wallace is with her, eventhough he'll freely admit just like Greer that Eli would "take a bullet before he'd let them touch a hair on her head."

The male fantasy is, "if I stay with her long enough, she'll love me." The female one always seems to be, "I can maintain two very intimate relationships with with two men and it will be ok." As I was relaying my story previously, this is where my friend ran into trouble. Eventually, she'll have to choose.

Wayston
June 12th, 2010, 09:59 AM
The thing is, we've seen why Chloe values Eli. But I haven't seen any real touching/bonding scene between Chloe and Scott... so why are they an item again? Oh yeah, Hollywood romance. Gotta have the good looking chick and good looking guy hook up. God forbid they actually do something edgier and hook the good looking girl up with the devoted nerd.

I disagree. It would be the hollywood thing to do to put the pretty chick with the nerdy dude. In real life women it doesn't work that way. The vast majority of women are about as shallow as the typical man when it comes to looks and attraction, it simply doesn't show as much because they're much pickier in their partners (like income and social status). I hope for eli that he gets into chloe's pants when she's drunk and having relationship issues with scott, but that's as far as he will get realistically speaking (and he would be too much of a good guy to take advantage).

Commander Zelix
June 12th, 2010, 10:02 AM
I think it was plain as day - she said that she wants him to know that she thinks he is a really great guy and friend, and that she isn't interested, but isn't just being a superficial friend. Eli, on the other hand, has feelings, and she knows it, so she acknowledged them. Hopefully this will get it out of the way so the characters can grow instead of walking around angsty all the time.

But I'm not sure if that kind of one-side love relationship work in real life. 2 good friends of opposite sex may be ok, but not when one of them is in love with the other.

IMForeman
June 12th, 2010, 10:21 AM
I took it as Chloe saying that she feels that when she tells Eli that she considers him a friend, that he undervalues that friendship as something being offered to placate him, instead of what he really wants, whereas she considers the friendship she has with Eli as something very important to her and not something she would offer lightly.

Filipino
June 12th, 2010, 11:07 AM
Chloe's line, "Why do you always react as if I've given a runner-up prize?" was a highlight for me.

I went through that a decade ago. Though the time has long past and the girl's married (she wanted me to do her prenup pictures) I still feel the scars. I like this part of the episode the most.

Chloe said it for her own sake and not for Eli. It is really tough if you aren't built like a soldier or some basketball player.

Galileo_Galilee
June 12th, 2010, 11:55 AM
Well, since eli left her I wonder how that'll play out in the next season. I think she might feel abandoned by him but she may come to realize that was how he felt when she used him.

But as for me I don't think she'll ever get with Eli. She only exists to pull his strings to create conflict.

And also normal women do not get with social outcasts. It just isn't done.

Paladine
June 12th, 2010, 12:11 PM
"The male fantasy is, "if I stay with her long enough, she'll love me." The female one always seems to be, "I can maintain two very intimate relationships with with two men and it will be ok." As I was relaying my story previously, this is where my friend ran into trouble. Eventually, she'll have to choose. "

You hit the nail on the head. Thats exactly how women think.

The Shrike
June 12th, 2010, 12:32 PM
...Chloe found sexual comfort in the big strong arms of the military man...Then the solution for Eli is to do the same in the big strong arms of Lt. James.

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 12:37 PM
Then the solution for Eli is to do the same in the big strong arms of Lt. James.

Except it doesn't generally work that way for men (at least that in my experience I haven't seen a woman pick out a man who is not strong in SOME way.) I'm as big a supporter of that pairing as there ever was because I think James and Eli could probably be at turns real, funny, and could provide growth for each other. But (and it's a big one), it's a tricky sell for most people because they're trying so desperately hard to sell this as "real" and many people don't like to portray big differences in looks as realistic pairings although it does happen in real life. I can already hear the criticism.

"So he couldn't hook up with Chloe because she was too hot, but somehow James who is arguably more attractive and stronger somehow falls madly in love with Wallace? Really?!"

As a writer, it can be done and it can be good. For what they're trying to sell with the show, I wouldn't hold my breath.

dgh64
June 12th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Chloe never used/abused Eli's feelings. She didn't know when the revolt was happening, she was only there to watch the Kino footage of Scott blowing up the alien ship stuck to the hull. I could see in her eyes that she was surprised when the revolt started and she suddenly left. Eli accused her later, but she said it wasn't true and I believed her.

I'm in the same situation as Eli right now -- in love with a girl who's in love with a more muscular guy (although not sleeping with him) and she's "really good friends but nothing more" with me, so I know exactly how he feels. I even cried a little during that scene.

I think Eli probably should've told her why he was abandoning her. It doesn't take that long to say "Scott and Greer are stranded outside and I have to open an airlock for them."

Assuming she lives through this, when she finds out that Eli was going to save her lover, then I think she'll totally forgive him for abandoning her and she'll only think higher of him.

The Shrike
June 12th, 2010, 01:05 PM
...As a writer, it can be done and it can be good. For what they're trying to sell with the show, I wouldn't hold my breath.I actually prefer an Eli/TJ ship, which is even more unlikely, but I think Eli/James would be a good fit seeing as how lonely they both are.

jelgate
June 12th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Except it doesn't generally work that way for men (at least that in my experience I haven't seen a woman pick out a man who is not strong in SOME way.) I'm as big a supporter of that pairing as there ever was because I think James and Eli could probably be at turns real, funny, and could provide growth for each other. But (and it's a big one), it's a tricky sell for most people because they're trying so desperately hard to sell this as "real" and many people don't like to portray big differences in looks as realistic pairings although it does happen in real life. I can already hear the criticism.

"So he couldn't hook up with Chloe because she was too hot, but somehow James who is arguably more attractive and stronger somehow falls madly in love with Wallace? Really?!"

As a writer, it can be done and it can be good. For what they're trying to sell with the show, I wouldn't hold my breath.

I honestly never found James that attractive but thats me. And that statement had a point. Hot/attractive/cute whatever word you want to use is different from person to person. When we are talking about physical looks everyone strives for a different part

dgh64
June 12th, 2010, 01:31 PM
I personally find Chloe way more physically attractive than James. I can kinda understand why Scott would pick her over James. But that's just me.

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Honestly, I'm just referring to the quandry of hooking Wallace up with James. It's why I said arguably. I'm simply saying from a story perspective, I think they'd get accused of placating the 15-25 year old fanboy so they won't do it.

Looks are irrelevant. When I say I like James and Wallace as a pair, it's really because there's always a very pure chemistry coming from them when they're in a scene. Awkward, friendly, or manipulative... I like their scenes. And there was such symmetry in their situations, so it always kind of made sense.

bobsuncorp
June 12th, 2010, 01:35 PM
I don't think Chloe has any feelings of abandonment when Eli left (maybe fleeting but not any kind of real feeling that will affect her decisions or emotions 2 seconds after she had them) I got the impression that she was worried for him rather than herself. In fact, I felt like she was more likely to be impressed by that hero moment than the 2 hours he spent carrying her around the ship.

I do feel that Chloe and Scott kind of fell into bed - they were attracted to each other, she could tell he was a good guy (and he is, much as we all identify with Eli - its not like Scott is any kind of a bad guy unless you count giving into temptation with James) and since they were both sure they were going to be dead within hours and she was in shock over losing her dad there was a strong sense of "why the hell not?"

Then they both survived, and now I get the strong impression that Scott likes Chloe more than she likes him. When she was going through her PTSD from being abducted she didn't feel like she could talk to him about it whereas if she had been in a similar situation with Eli I think she would have.

Right now their relationship is running on mutual attraction, her respect for him and his devotion to her, whereas she feels the devotion but not the attraction to Eli.

I wonder what would happen if Eli ended up swapping bodies with Scott? Would that create her dream man?

mparsons1981
June 12th, 2010, 01:39 PM
yeah james is not all attractive. Chloe has that 'need to be protected' thing, and james is lets be honest, a bit butch. Just cause she has large breasts doesnt make her attractive. Sorry not all us guys are so obsessed with that.

dgh64
June 12th, 2010, 01:39 PM
I wonder what would happen if Eli ended up swapping bodies with Scott? Would that create her dream man?

Ugh... you just gave me an idea for a fanfic...

Although if Eli was in Scott's body, he's too good a person to take sexual advantage of Chloe (if she doesn't know about the swith) and she'd never sleep with him if she did know.

dgh64
June 12th, 2010, 01:41 PM
yeah james is not all attractive. Chloe has that 'need to be protected' thing, and james is lets be honest, a bit butch. Just cause she has large breasts doesnt make her attractive. Sorry not all us guys are so obsessed with that.

Thank you, I was trying to think of a tactful way to say something like "an ample bosom isn't everything" in my last post, but you did it for me.

Azzers
June 12th, 2010, 02:22 PM
I wonder what would happen if Eli ended up swapping bodies with Scott? Would that create her dream man?

I don't think so. I think there's somthing about Eli's personality that Chloe just does not respond to. I think we take the easy way out when we say its "just looks", but I always get the impression that she finds him as immature as everyone else. Scott projects competence and reliability. Wallace is starting to exhibit them both, but he still has a bit of "screw-up" in him.

I mean, we'll notice she is oblivious to as many of his jokes as everyone else. I think she respects his devotion and his math wizardry. But what else?

bobsuncorp
June 12th, 2010, 02:24 PM
While big breasts certainly are not everything, the instant attraction, that hardwired part of our brain that recognises physical shapes of hips and long hair and bosom, that part that grabs our attention, makes us look twice and then can (or not depending on the girl) be followed up by pretty face, nice smile and later the personality is (for most men) more powerful with big breasts. The following characteristics need to be right also, the battle is not won at the first hurdle, but it helps. And be honest, given that the actress is on tv pretty much guarantees that she is going to be hot in the same way that Eli is pretty handsome himself in comparison to mere mortals. The actress is playing a military officer wearing masculine clothes with a tough personality, she's not going to be worrying about breaking a nail on her rifle. I personally think she is really hot, even without the shoulder boulders.

KEK
June 12th, 2010, 02:26 PM
She knows how Eli feels about her, but wants to let him know how much his friendship means to her, and that it's still a strong relationship, if not the one he wanted.

SupremeLegate
June 12th, 2010, 03:04 PM
I don't think so. I think there's somthing about Eli's personality that Chloe just does not respond to. I think we take the easy way out when we say its "just looks", but I always get the impression that she finds him as immature as everyone else. Scott projects competence and reliability. Wallace is starting to exhibit them both, but he still has a bit of "screw-up" in him.

I mean, we'll notice she is oblivious to as many of his jokes as everyone else. I think she respects his devotion and his math wizardry. But what else?

I think she actually does get his jokes, she has laughed at quite a few of them. But I think she knows when it is not an appropriate time to make a joke. I think Eli needs to mature a little, and when he does I think Eli will become attracted to him.


While big breasts certainly are not everything, the instant attraction, that hardwired part of our brain that recognises physical shapes of hips and long hair and bosom, that part that grabs our attention, makes us look twice and then can (or not depending on the girl) be followed up by pretty face, nice smile and later the personality is (for most men) more powerful with big breasts. The following characteristics need to be right also, the battle is not won at the first hurdle, but it helps. And be honest, given that the actress is on tv pretty much guarantees that she is going to be hot in the same way that Eli is pretty handsome himself in comparison to mere mortals. The actress is playing a military officer wearing masculine clothes with a tough personality, she's not going to be worrying about breaking a nail on her rifle. I personally think she is really hot, even without the shoulder boulders.

Actually it has been shown that the part of the female body that men first notice is the face, and even then it is more the shape of her face than anything else that will drive an attraction.

And no I do not currently have any links to anything to prove this.

pipi
June 12th, 2010, 05:16 PM
She knows how Eli feels about her, but wants to let him know how much his friendship means to her, and that it's still a strong relationship, if not the one he wanted.

And Eli snuck in a goodbye kiss. The last one he'll ever get. [Mr. T voice] I pity the fool [/Mr. T voice]

garhkal
June 13th, 2010, 07:15 AM
I woulnd't mind seeing him hook up with parks.

jelgate
June 13th, 2010, 11:34 AM
I woulnd't mind seeing him hook up with parks.

It sometimes makes you wonder if Park is still like that. We haven't seen her engage like that since Life

Ser Scot A Ellison
June 13th, 2010, 12:23 PM
Atlanis,


Cholie is a user at least for the most of the season and this last scene gives me hope that she's comming out of her using and abusing Eli's feelings ways or mabye not

How the heck does not having sex with Eli equate to being a "user at least for most of the season." Friends do for each other without expectation of reward or favor. That's what friendship is. If Eli is only friends with Chloe because he has a desire to have sex with her then he's the one using, not her. She's never given Eli the impression she wants anything other than friendship and it is wrong to presume otherwise.

Kaiphantom
June 14th, 2010, 08:34 AM
Air Part 2, Scott comforting her about her dad's death. Air Part 3 end, Chloe bringing Scott water after his desert trip. Little things from there on solidifying their relationshipness to me- his reaction to her death in Time (And their flirty banter earlier), them together in Space, chatting about her nightmares in Divided, his concern for her here in the finale... It's there.

Flimsy. Air part 2, I'll give you, although I wonder about an attraction that begins by talking about one's father. Air part 3, there were several like Greer and Eli (who risked staying behind with his arm in the wormhole!); why didn't she bring him water? Answer: because Scott is hunky. With Time, that's more Scott, and it's obvious that he wants her, and we've already established that he likes sex. The rest is after they've hooked up and feels tacked on. I get the same vibe from them, as I do from Anakin and Amadala in Star Wars Ep II: Attack of the clones. Cheesy romance from two people who look they are trying to be in love.

Would Scott be happy being her friend? Would he still have those moments if she wasn't with him? Judging by how he has no moments with James, I'd say no.


In all fairness, in SGA they had Keller hook up with McKay instead of Ronon so that was different. Of course it turned out to be terrible for the show but at least they went that different route.

I'll give you that (even though I preferred the girl Rodney was with before that he almost proposed to). But Rodney is, well, he's a powerful personality. And that's a big part of why I liked SGA, is because it was different that what was on at the time. SGU seems to be trying too hard to be like everything else.


I think the lack of a solid foundation for their relationship, which to me basically consists of “We both know what it feels like to lose a parent, lets shake up,” will be handled more in season 2. At least if what I have read in interviews is any indication.

That's an interesting take which I often considered. If they break up because the foundation isn't there, and Eli's been better to her than Scott has, then it will be a big growth moment for both Chloe and Scott. Chloe, because she'll realize the better man is the one has been there for her, even if he knew he couldn't be with her. And Scott will learn that women aren't just people who will jump in your bed, and you need to value them more as a person before sex.

dgh64
June 14th, 2010, 09:54 AM
Flimsy. Air part 2, I'll give you, although I wonder about an attraction that begins by talking about one's father.

It's possible he was attracted to her before that, and decided to use the opportunity of her grief to get closer. It happens a lot in real life.



Air part 3, there were several like Greer and Eli (who risked staying behind with his arm in the wormhole!); why didn't she bring him water? Answer: because Scott is hunky.

That's a good point, but also remember Eli and Greer weren't so seriously dehydrated. They were in the desert the same amount of time, but remember Scott gave Greer his extra water before they split up and a lot of Eli's time was spent standing by the gate not physically exerting. By the time he got back to the gate with the soda lime, Scott was on the verge of passing out again from dehydration and had to be helped to his quarters, but Eli and Greer got back to the ship, took a drink, and were fine.

kymeric
June 14th, 2010, 01:23 PM
Translation: Im not gonna put out but im still gonna use u for support and all those things my hot BF wont give me that i need, isnt he dreamy?

Kaiphantom
June 14th, 2010, 05:13 PM
It's possible he was attracted to her before that, and decided to use the opportunity of her grief to get closer. It happens a lot in real life.

Sounds a lot like he was using her father's death to work his mojo on her, in her moment of grief, then. To a girl he had only really seen for... a day? Maybe two?


That's a good point, but also remember Eli and Greer weren't so seriously dehydrated. They were in the desert the same amount of time, but remember Scott gave Greer his extra water before they split up and a lot of Eli's time was spent standing by the gate not physically exerting. By the time he got back to the gate with the soda lime, Scott was on the verge of passing out again from dehydration and had to be helped to his quarters, but Eli and Greer got back to the ship, took a drink, and were fine.

He was running and carrying a heavy load, so he wasn't too worse from Eli and Greer. It was a collaborative effort between Scott, Greer, and Eli... and she visited him and made it sound like it was all his doing that saved them. So why not thank them, too? Why not at least Eli, too, whom she had known longer than Scott?


Translation: Im not gonna put out but im still gonna use u for support and all those things my hot BF wont give me that i need, isnt he dreamy?

It's called "Emotional cheating" and women do it all the time. Get this from Guy A, and get that from Guy B, etc. It's like trying to have your cake and eat it, too. The only time women grow out of it, is after they've destroyed quite a few relationships and friendships over it. The attractive ones usually always have problems with it, since they are attractive, and thus have another guy or two lined up (friend or not) that they can whine to. Chloe has realized her friends were superficial, but she hasn't realized why yet. It almost seemed like she might know why she was a part of it, but is hiding from that part of herself, unwilling to confront it.

Another translation of her "second prize" comment would be: "I don't see you as a guy at all, like I did with my past BF, Scott, and other hunky guys. You're just an androgynous friend that I can tell all my problems to and who is devoted and goes to great lengths for me, but never see as attractive or mate material; isn't that enough for you?"

If I could find a woman devoted to me, I'd sure as hell give her a chance. That kind of loyalty you just don't find too often, and is a key ingredient in a healthy relationship. However, I'll state once again my preference is for Eli to drop her into Scott's lap, wash his hands of her, and find other people to hang with. :P

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 15th, 2010, 02:58 PM
It's funny but I'm learning a lot more about the posters with all this projection going on than I am about the characters :)

Shai Hulud
June 16th, 2010, 01:25 AM
so why are they an item again?

Scott's there when Senator Armstrong gets burried in the rubble in Air 1 and is there again when he locks himself in the shuttle. Both extremely traumatic events which Chloe witnesses first hand. Scott's the first one to console her in both instances. Possibly a factor, she's looking for a surrogate Dad Dad Daddy-O. ;)

MattSilver 3k
June 16th, 2010, 01:26 AM
It's funny but I'm learning a lot more about the posters with all this projection going on than I am about the characters :)

Funny... Sad... Same thing.

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 01:29 AM
It's funny but I'm learning a lot more about the posters with all this projection going on than I am about the characters :)

Observe the Gateworld poster in his natural habitat. Watch as he quickly makes a point and is suddenly overwhelmed by disagrements. His natural defense to make more radical claims fails and he is soon devoured. Such is the way in the animal kingdom.

MattSilver 3k
June 16th, 2010, 02:00 AM
Observe the Gateworld poster in his natural habitat. Watch as he quickly makes a point and is suddenly overwhelmed by disagrements. His natural defense to make more radical claims fails and he is soon devoured. Such is the way in the animal kingdom.

Well spotted chum. Unfortunately, the "he" you are referring to is in fact a "she". Clearly, you have failed identification of species' gender in Biology class. :P

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 04:11 AM
Well spotted chum. Unfortunately, the "he" you are referring to is in fact a "she". Clearly, you have failed identification of species' gender in Biology class. :P

I'm the narrator. I have no idea what I'm saying besides what's on the script. :)

MattSilver 3k
June 16th, 2010, 04:18 AM
I'm the narrator. I have no idea what I'm saying besides what's on the script. :)

Damn. Well, it's not my fault as writer... I'll just blame that assistant guy... Jelgate. That's it. He's fired.

Literally. In a bonfire pit of sorts.

GateroomGuard
June 16th, 2010, 04:31 AM
Damn. Well, it's not my fault as writer... I'll just blame that assistant guy... Jelgate. That's it. He's fired.

Literally. In a bonfire pit of sorts.

Observe the writer in his habitat. Notice the quickness to which it spreads blame to the assistant. The strike is quick and total. When cornered the Writer has been known to attack it's own young in it's defense. But such is all part of natural cycle of nature documentary production.

MattSilver 3k
June 16th, 2010, 04:37 AM
Observe the writer in his habitat. Notice the quickness to which it spreads blame to the assistant. The strike is quick and total. When cornered the Writer has been known to attack it's own young in it's defense. But such is all part of natural cycle of nature documentary production.

... Take note of this writer's status as Executive Producer too. As in, you're fired. ;)

garhkal
June 16th, 2010, 06:12 AM
It sometimes makes you wonder if Park is still like that. We haven't seen her engage like that since Life

We know she was earilyer (greer), but imo she is also a nerdy type. So eli would be a good match

jelgate
June 16th, 2010, 06:14 AM
Observe the writer in his habitat. Notice the quickness to which it spreads blame to the assistant. The strike is quick and total. When cornered the Writer has been known to attack it's own young in it's defense. But such is all part of natural cycle of nature documentary production.

Its a defense mechansim because of no longer being the alpha male

xxxevilgrinxxx
June 16th, 2010, 06:15 AM
Scott's there when Senator Armstrong gets burried in the rubble in Air 1 and is there again when he locks himself in the shuttle. Both extremely traumatic events which Chloe witnesses first hand. Scott's the first one to console her in both instances. Possibly a factor, she's looking for a surrogate Dad Dad Daddy-O. ;)

Greer was also there for both of those instances, so it's not really a matter of closest male body.

Shai Hulud
June 16th, 2010, 07:01 AM
Greer was also there for both of those instances, so it's not really a matter of closest male body.

Greer doesnt seem to be Chloe's type, can you imagine her taking Greer home to meet mummy and the rest of the trust fund posse?! THAT could get ugly! :D

Coronach
June 16th, 2010, 10:00 AM
Greer doesnt seem to be Chloe's type, can you imagine her taking Greer home to meet mummy and the rest of the trust fund posse?! THAT could get ugly! :D

We have no evidence that Chloe's mother is a racist, and she clearly doesn't care for her old "friends" (i.e. trust fund posse) anymore given the events of Earth. So, it actually shouldn't be a problem. :S

Shai Hulud
June 16th, 2010, 11:38 AM
Okay, BACK THE **** up here, in what way was that racist? I mentioned nothing WHATSOEVER about Greer's race.

Lahela
June 16th, 2010, 11:56 AM
Okay, BACK THE **** up here, in what way was that racist? I mentioned nothing WHATSOEVER about Greer's race.

Why on earth would Greer be unacceptable to Chloe's family?

fwupow
August 12th, 2010, 03:12 AM
I don't think Chloe gets it, because women usually don't. It's gotta be almost the number one thing that men hate about women. Many women have community psychology when it comes to emotional support/bonding. They go for group/network support methods.

Men are very specific and focus their emotional need on their mothers & wives and nobody else. If Chloe isn't committing to marry Eli, then it most definitely is a "Runner-up Prize".

xxxevilgrinxxx
August 12th, 2010, 05:53 AM
I don't think Chloe gets it, because women usually don't. It's gotta be almost the number one thing that men hate about women. Many women have community psychology when it comes to emotional support/bonding. They go for group/network support methods.

Men are very specific and focus their emotional need on their mothers & wives and nobody else. If Chloe isn't committing to marry Eli, then it most definitely is a "Runner-up Prize".

way to go, Captain Generalization! And you've managed to make a slam both on women and on men, that takes skill (or something else, but I;ll keep that to myself :D) Maybe it's something you just happen to hate about women? And I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of guys right here on GW that manage to care about more women than just their mothers and wives.

Jper
August 12th, 2010, 06:13 AM
I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of guys right here on GW that manage to care about more women than just their mothers and wives.

:D A lot of women... :D :)

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 12th, 2010, 02:08 PM
fwupow,


I don't think Chloe gets it, because women usually don't. It's gotta be almost the number one thing that men hate about women. Many women have community psychology when it comes to emotional support/bonding. They go for group/network support methods.

Men are very specific and focus their emotional need on their mothers & wives and nobody else. If Chloe isn't committing to marry Eli, then it most definitely is a "Runner-up Prize".

Huh? So the only relationship's between men and women that matter to men are women they are having sex with and their mothers? Really? That a rather paleolithic view of intersex relationships.

Jper
August 12th, 2010, 02:16 PM
Now to me that sounds a bit too Freudian for me. :D

2nd lieutanet carol
August 12th, 2010, 03:00 PM
way to go, Captain Generalization! And you've managed to make a slam both on women and on men, that takes skill (or something else, but I;ll keep that to myself :D) Maybe it's something you just happen to hate about women? And I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of guys right here on GW that manage to care about more women than just their mothers and wives.

especially if there in uniform and they pull shrapnel out of my dumb A** after i decide to walk a little too close to a guy and he steps on the wrong thing, but i respect women in general until i get to know them and they give me a reason not to.

fwupow
August 12th, 2010, 09:53 PM
Wow! Looks like I started a firestorm. First of all, everybody's psychology is different. Some people had little or no emotional bond with their opposite sex parent during early childhood or they experienced severe emotional rejection by the opposite sex parent (i.e. spanked & yelled at for crying etc.) A common result of this is emotional gayness, in other words they focus their emotional need on the same sex instead of the opposite sex, since they believe that compassion and understanding can only come from a person of the same sex.

You need to understand that sex is irrelevant. Sex is an expression of love. Sexual desire is intertwined with emotional desire and many people pursue it as though it's the beginning and the end and the entire fulfillment of the desire, but it's like a baby sucking a pacifier instead of a bottle. No nutritional benefit is actually obtained from the pacifier even though it may feel like what's wanted.

I didn't say that, as a man, you can't care about other women, but everybody needs a primary secure emotional attachment. Why has the institution of marriage existed for thousands of years? If you believe the Bible, then the arrangement came from God. Did God arrange it for NO reason?

Many people have a secure emotional connection with their parents for, perhaps, many years of their lives and have no real need of a mate. A wife takes over the job of being a man's primary emotional provider from his mother. The fact is, that people who grew up in a secure environment with secure attachments to nurturing parents, extend outward from that to form many other good, but secondary, friendships, whereas people who become emotionally orphaned from parents need to move on to a marital relationship. Often people don't understand this until their parents die. Also, people often take for granted, things that they have never had the misfortune of being without.

Eli is the son of single mom, and he has likely had to be the "man of the house" for some years, in essence, being a substitute husband to his mother. His circumstance in life makes him want a wife. I don't think there's any question but that he wishes for Chloe to one day become his primary secure attachment. Chloe, on the other hand seems to wanna get her emotional support from whatever guy happens to be around.

It is common in society for secure people who were blessed with good, happy & emotionally supportive parents to look down on others who weren't nearly so well blessed and ridicule their "psychological disorders" & "insecurity" instead of realizing that they wouldn't be any better if they had been born into the same circumstances. We live in a demonic society that tries to hate people into being better people instead of loving them. Hate has never worked and never will work.

A son who is blessed with a secure functional attachment with his mother from birth will be emotionally heterosexual. If/when he llater loses that support, he will naturally want to replace what he has lost, by forming an intimate emotional connection with another woman--a wife. A person's sense of security comes from marriage and the fact that marriage involves solemn vows or promise to stick by someone. The institution was not born of a whim or frivolous pipe dream. It's there to provide for natural human emotional need. In our modern society, everybody is now on anti-depressants because of the failure of the family unit and the marriage arrangement. If the entirety of your emotional need can be met by casual, non-family relationships, then you are quite likely emotionally retarded/underdeveloped and/or have never known any real emotionally intimate relationships in your life. If that's how you are then be thankful because you're likely in a better condition to cope with our modern broken society full of dysfunctional failed families. Understand though, that not everyone is the same way. Some people had very close & strong emotional attachments with their opposite sex parent early in life and powerfully miss it when it's gone and hence want to find a replacement through traditional marriage.

So, the way I see it, is that Eli wants Chloe to be his wife, but Chloe probably doesn't even understand where he's coming from, so Eli is just gonna keep clinging to on-again/off-again dream that will likely end in a miserable heart-breaking fashion.

Deevil
August 12th, 2010, 10:15 PM
Sex is an expression of love.

Sorry mate, sex and love can be very much mutually exclusive... of course, generalisations tend to cause these problems.


Why has the institution of marriage existed for thousands of years?

'Cause the precurement of property, peace, unity and wealth has always been important. Love and marriage is a relatively recent development in the history of marriage.


Eli is the son of single mom, and he has likely had to be the "man of the house" for some years, in essence, being a substitute husband to his mother.

No, he has been a son and a caretaker to his sick mother. The fact that he is a man does not make him a substitute for a husband. I really have issues with these generalisations. Not only does it suggest that a woman cannot live without a husband, it suggests that a man always has to 'man up'.


His circumstance in life makes him want a wife. I don't think there's any question but that he wishes for Chloe to one day become his primary secure attachment. Chloe, on the other hand seems to wanna get her emotional support from whatever guy happens to be around.

He doesn't appear to want a 'wife' at all. He has a crush on Chloe. Everyone has crushes. They happen, they have nothing to do with the desire to have a long standing relationship with someone. Hello, how many people think <insert celebrity> is hot and that they want to have sex with them? It has nothing to do with love, or attachment, but ti has everything to do with lust.

As for Chloe, I think like Eli you are selling her short. She is a generous soul who does get attached to people of both genders. To suggest that she solely relies on men for emotional support only supports your theory that a woman cannot function without a man, it does not speak to the fact that women can get on quite well without men being the caretakers.


It is common in society for secure people who were blessed with good, happy & emotionally supportive parents to look down on others who weren't nearly so well blessed and ridicule their "psychological disorders" & "insecurity" instead of realizing that they wouldn't be any better if they had been born into the same circumstances.

It's not as common as you think. Furthermore, just because you grew up in an emotional supportive family doesn't mean you wont suffer from any issues. That is blatently untrue.


A son who is blessed with a secure functional attachment with his mother from birth will be emotionally heterosexual.

Emotionally heterosexual, emotionally gay? Okay, the phraseology here is misguided at best and borders on the offensive.

Sami_
August 16th, 2010, 01:03 AM
BFF set in concrete. May this new galaxy bless Eli with alien babes or at least in his dreams.

I like the way you think.

Kaiphantom
August 18th, 2010, 03:24 PM
If it was just a crush, it would have been dead by now; crushes are crushes because they don't last. Because it's continued so far, and Eli has remained devoted, it's love. Pure, unconditional love, the kind women normally fantasize about, or will state that's what they want when they talk about what they want in a guy.

And then will go bang the hunky guy.

Chloe is a typical woman, and what she meant was simply: "You do a lot for me and I don't want to lose that, and why aren't you happy that I'm basically using as my rag?"

Chloe is the type to not realize what she has until it's gone, or witness how bad she is until it's pushed into her face. Witness how she didn't even realize how bad her friends were until she met Eli. And I find it ironic that it's Eli, not Scott, that makes her realize how bad her friends were, and how bad she was.

At any rate, gotta continue the Hollywood romance. Hot girl + hunky guy sells more T-shirts.

Ser Scot A Ellison
August 26th, 2010, 02:37 PM
Kai,


If it was just a crush, it would have been dead by now; crushes are crushes because they don't last. Because it's continued so far, and Eli has remained devoted, it's love. Pure, unconditional love, the kind women normally fantasize about, or will state that's what they want when they talk about what they want in a guy.

You don't try to use emotional blackmail on the people you love. You accept them as they are. If they do not have romantic feelings you don't wait for them "come around" pretending to be their friend while secretly lusting after them. That's not love. Love requires respect for the feelings of the person for whom the emotion is felt otherwise it's a case of Person A loving themselves and wanting person B.


And then will go bang the hunky guy.

Oh, for the love of pete. What business is it of Eli's who Chloe sleeps with? If he's her friend he lets that go and doesn't obsess over it.


Chloe is a typical woman, and what she meant was simply: "You do a lot for me and I don't want to lose that, and why aren't you happy that I'm basically using as my rag?"

Could you be a bit more bitter here? "Typical woman"... please. Simply because you believe it's a character flaw to not find Eli sexually attractive but want to maintain a friendship with him doesn't make Chloe "typical". Mainly because there is not such thing as a "Typical woman" any more than there is a "Typical man". Everyone is an individual.

Gamma626
August 30th, 2010, 09:23 PM
Here's another thing. Chloe could very well have feelings for Eli that have not yet developed. Her relationship with Scott appears to be slowly dispersing. And Eli's supposed Love interest in season 2 may spear head the fact that yes, she does care for him. This relationship is purely realistic. Chloe was driven by base needs at the start of the show. She may work it out with Scott, or things may go a different route. We'll find out.

Kaiphantom
August 31st, 2010, 04:14 PM
You don't try to use emotional blackmail on the people you love. You accept them as they are. If they do not have romantic feelings you don't wait for them "come around" pretending to be their friend while secretly lusting after them. That's not love. Love requires respect for the feelings of the person for whom the emotion is felt otherwise it's a case of Person A loving themselves and wanting person B.

To put it bluntly, what is your point with this? Are you saying that Eli is emotionally blackmailing Chloe? If so, what is your evidence that he is doing so?


Oh, for the love of pete. What business is it of Eli's who Chloe sleeps with? If he's her friend he lets that go and doesn't obsess over it.

Again, I have to scratch my head and ask, "What's your point in saying this?" I don't see where I said that it was Eli's business at all, nor that he's been obsessive or has shown problems. So, it really seems like you're trying to insinuate things to make him look bad, for whatever reason.


Could you be a bit more bitter here? "Typical woman"... please. Simply because you believe it's a character flaw to not find Eli sexually attractive but want to maintain a friendship with him doesn't make Chloe "typical". Mainly because there is not such thing as a "Typical woman" any more than there is a "Typical man". Everyone is an individual.

Could you be a bit more naive here? Because it is fairly typical of women to friend zone a guy. Hell, it's been referred to in the show, and there are cruder urban dictionary references to it. It's a well known phenomenon that's been referenced by women in this very forum, and thus to proclaim ignorance of it is a bit disingenuous.

EllieVee
September 1st, 2010, 02:56 AM
Could you be a bit more naive here? Because it is fairly typical of women to friend zone a guy. Hell, it's been referred to in the show, and there are cruder urban dictionary references to it. It's a well known phenomenon that's been referenced by women in this very forum, and thus to proclaim ignorance of it is a bit disingenuous.

Your argument is that because friendzoning in referenced in SGU, that some women on this forum have referenced it, and that it's in crude urban dictionaries, that it's a typical of women to do it? That's actually the argument you're going with? Seriously?

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 1st, 2010, 07:47 AM
Kai,

My point is that if Eli is really Chloe's friend he shouldn't resent being, as you put it, "friendzoned". There's nothing wrong with being "friendzoned" if the man or woman for whom there are unrequited feelings genuinely likes the individual being "friendzoned" but doesn't have romantic feelings for them. To do otherwise would be to lie to a friend.

You continue to somehow imply Chloe not having romantic feelings for Eli is some sort of character flaw. It's simply not. Nor should it be construed to be. We find attractive who we find attractive. Chloe owes Eli nothing for his friendship, Eli owes Chloe nothing for her friendship. Friendship is not a quid pro quo relationship.

Kaiphantom
September 1st, 2010, 08:36 AM
Your argument is that because friendzoning in referenced in SGU, that some women on this forum have referenced it, and that it's in crude urban dictionaries, that it's a typical of women to do it? That's actually the argument you're going with? Seriously?

Perhaps you've lived in a bubble, and thus haven't encountered it much. Or been lucky. Congrats! Suppose you'll just have to take the word of the rest of us that it happens. A lot.


My point is that if Eli is really Chloe's friend he shouldn't resent being, as you put it, "friendzoned". There's nothing wrong with being "friendzoned" if the man or woman for whom there are unrequited feelings genuinely likes the individual being "friendzoned" but doesn't have romantic feelings for them. To do otherwise would be to lie to a friend.

I never said that Eli should resent Chloe for her decisions. That would be you putting words in my mouth. All I said is what Chloe has done, is fairly typical of women.


You continue to somehow imply Chloe not having romantic feelings for Eli is some sort of character flaw. It's simply not. Nor should it be construed to be. We find attractive who we find attractive. Chloe owes Eli nothing for his friendship, Eli owes Chloe nothing for her friendship. Friendship is not a quid pro quo relationship.

And I never said Chloe's actions were a character flaw; that would be the whole "putting words in my mouth" thing again. Indeed, I've actually praised the show for being so realistic in this regard.

And you're right; friends don't owe each other anything. Two people can be friends, and do absolutely nothing for each other. Or they can be friends, where only one of them ever does anything for the other person. I'm sure all your friends are glad to know that, when the chips are down, they can count on you to reply, "Sorry, but I don't owe you anything. You're still my friend, though!"

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 1st, 2010, 08:41 AM
Kai,

You don't say it, and I'm not saying you said it, but it's heavily implied based upon the way refer to Eli and Chloe's relationship. For example:


Chloe is a typical woman, and what she meant was simply: "You do a lot for me and I don't want to lose that, and why aren't you happy that I'm basically using as my rag?"

As to your next point:


And you're right; friends don't owe each other anything. Two people can be friends, and do absolutely nothing for each other. Or they can be friends, where only one of them ever does anything for the other person. I'm sure all your friends are glad to know that, when the chips are down, they can count on you to reply, "Sorry, but I don't owe you anything. You're still my friend, though!"

Yup. Now if you get nothing out of the friendship perhaps it's time to stop having a relationship with that individual. However, if Eli is expecting romantic feelings to be reciprocated when they aren't Eli is in the wrong here. Chloe is right.

EllieVee
September 1st, 2010, 06:43 PM
Perhaps you've lived in a bubble, and thus haven't encountered it much. Or been lucky. Congrats! Suppose you'll just have to take the word of the rest of us that it happens. A lot.

Consider this: there is no such thing as a typical woman. Generalisations make the world fall over.

carmencatalina
September 3rd, 2010, 02:04 PM
Consider this: there is no such thing as a typical woman. Generalisations make the world fall over.

Green for you.

Kaiphantom
September 3rd, 2010, 03:27 PM
You don't say it, and I'm not saying you said it, but it's heavily implied based upon the way refer to Eli and Chloe's relationship. For example:

The implication would be yours alone. I've already said I don't mean anything of the kind. Thus, I know you'll drop this point because you don't want to be the kind of person that tries to insist someone said something, when they really didn't.


Yup. Now if you get nothing out of the friendship perhaps it's time to stop having a relationship with that individual. However, if Eli is expecting romantic feelings to be reciprocated when they aren't Eli is in the wrong here. Chloe is right.

There is no right or wrong here; I'm not quite sure why you keep trying to insist there is. I see no evidence Eli expects her to reciprocate. I mean, he's not complaining, he's not doing anything negative towards her. He's hurt, true, but I think he's doing a damn fine job trying to be her friend and someone she can depend on.

Why you think that's somehow wrong, is beyond me.


Consider this: there is no such thing as a typical woman. Generalisations make the world fall over.

Consider this: You don't have such a good understanding of psychology, nor the science involved with the human brain. Thus, you aren't aware of the fact that there are typical behaviors that men and women exhibit in common situations. It's not exactly "PC" to talk about (people will generally go into strong denial about it; a typical behavior of humans). Of course, you would then become somewhat outraged by this, not quite understanding that there are exceptions to the rule, thus of course not everyone is like this. I will be awaiting your declaration that you have a Ph.D in psychology.

carmencatalina
September 3rd, 2010, 03:34 PM
Consider this: You don't have such a good understanding of psychology, nor the science involved with the human brain. Thus, you aren't aware of the fact that there are typical behaviors that men and women exhibit in common situations. It's not exactly "PC" to talk about (people will generally go into strong denial about it; a typical behavior of humans). Of course, you would then become somewhat outraged by this, not quite understanding that there are exceptions to the rule, thus of course not everyone is like this. I will be awaiting your declaration that you have a Ph.D in psychology.

Ok, I know I'll probably getting moded for this, and likely deserve it, because hello - off topic city. But I have a PhD in biology, and my very best friend, chair of her department, has a PhD in Psychology - she specializing in brain studies of learning, with an emphasis on age and gender studies.

And on this - I call bull****.

Cite me the scientific papers, then we can talk. If you were one of my students, you would be getting a very poor grade right now.

carmencatalina
September 3rd, 2010, 03:37 PM
I apologize if I offended anyone - luckily, GW edited my unladylike swearing.

Ser Scot A Ellison
September 3rd, 2010, 03:49 PM
Kai,

The inference is mine alone based upon what I believe your post implied. However, as you say, I don't want to put words in your mouth and will drop this as you insist you don't mean the implication I've infered.

Kaiphantom
September 3rd, 2010, 07:12 PM
Ok, I know I'll probably getting moded for this, and likely deserve it, because hello - off topic city. But I have a PhD in biology, and my very best friend, chair of her department, has a PhD in Psychology - she specializing in brain studies of learning, with an emphasis on age and gender studies.

And on this - I call bull****.

Cite me the scientific papers, then we can talk. If you were one of my students, you would be getting a very poor grade right now.

Ooh! Ooh! I can play this game, too! *ahem* I have TWO friends with Ph.D's in psychology! So that must mean my viewpoint is TWICE as more accurate as yours!

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but I just love the "I have a friend who..." arguments, heh. Anyway... you don't cite anything, but expect me to? See, if you really had a friend in psychology, then he or she could tell you that human beings do exhibit predictable, standardized behaviors with regards to various stimuli; that's the whole reason for the field to exist. They can evaluate behaviors and give you valid reasons why. They can analyze situations and tell you how people are likely to act.

In short, they can give you typical behavior patterns.

But why not ask your friend about Behaviorism, and Skinner's Box? Or perhaps you could explain to the class about positive reinforcement with regards to behavior modification, and how that affects a male or female's development?

My prediction? You'll still be angry with your next post. You won't be able to let this go. Perhaps angry enough to try and report me, when I am demonstrating the fact that behaviors can be foretold in advance, since typical human behavior is predictable.


The inference is mine alone based upon what I believe your post implied. However, as you say, I don't want to put words in your mouth and will drop this as you insist you don't mean the implication I've infered.

Thank you. It is good to see that you keep a level head in a debate. I do apologize if I gave the wrong implication in my posts, but I am glad we can clear that up with some honest conversation.

carmencatalina
September 4th, 2010, 09:02 AM
Actually, I'm laughing at you if you think Skinner's box is anywhere near the forefront of current psychology research.

I'll drop it, but if you like, I can refer you to a few papers in case you actually want to learn anything. Otherwise, I'll just assume that you are someone who believes in that pop psychological books like "Men are from mars, women are from venus" actually represent science.

In one last ditch attempt to frame this in a real way; think of what we have learned about connectivity and intelligence. Generally, there is an overall pattern of denser, more highly connected brains and intelligence, right? Well, if we were to extrapolate that without thinking about the natural human variation that we know is everywhere, and without realizing that there is more to any measure of "intelligence" that we could possible come up with than what we can understand from brain studies, we would come up with the idea that humans are at their peak of "intelligence" at about 20 and that people in their 60s, for example, would always be less intelligent than those in their 20s.

After all, "typical" brain density peaks at about 20, and declines afterward.

Of course, anyone with any knowledge of various ways of measuring "intelligence" will tell you that it isn't that simple.

People less than 20 years of age learn faster, so are they more "intelligent"? People older than 20 tend to have acquired more information, have a more connected set of mental tools and experiences, and are often more "intelligent" by many measures (which is why, despite my aging brain, I'm at the front of the lecture hall teaching and my 20-something students, with their lovely fresh brains, are in the audience).

The same is true of gender studies. The gross anatomical differences that we find are so far from being able to tell us anything about "behavior" that it is laughable. We can't map behavior to any part particular areas of the brain, other than to make generalizations about what damage to some areas seem to do.

The idea that there are "typical" male and female behaviors, in the absence of cultural influences, is a hypothesis that can't really be tested - because we have never raised males and females in any human culture in a controlled way that would allow for that sort of study.

I won't bore the others on this thread further, but this is a real subject of scholarly and scientific interest, not just a pop-culture subject for discussion on Oprah and Dr. Phil.

Again, send me a message if you want some references - I assure you, they will be from actual scientific journals. My friend is a real person, and she told me last night she would be glad to send me more citations if you like.

A good place to start might be:

Kelly, Ostowski and Wilson (1999) "Gender Differences in Brain and Behavior: Hormonal and Neural Bases", Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior, 64(4):655-664

This paper is the introduction on a special volume on the subject - so the rest of the papers in that volume of the journal all deal with the topic.

Enjoy.

carmencatalina
September 4th, 2010, 09:14 AM
One other thing: several times in your post you use the world "typical". But what do you mean by that?

Scientist don't usually use the word "typical" when discussing differences between groups; usually, we try to quantify our meaning. So for example, we might say that the average time spent on a spatial learning problem is shorter (implying greater ease of solving the problem) in males than in females.

And then we would do a statistical test to show that the mean time for males is smaller (shorter time) than females, and if the test gives us a certain result, say that the results are "statistically significant".

That's where I spend an entire lecture in biostatistics teaching my students the very important difference between statistical significance and biological significance.

Because of the variation inherent in human behavior (and indeed, in pretty much all biological processes), knowing that there is a difference in the mean of two distributions (for our example, the mean time in males versus the mean time in females) is a long way from telling us something about any particular member of the populations (any individual).

The "pop" in pop psychology comes not from saying that there are distributional differences in male versus female behavior (that can be shown for some specific traits, with the proper study), but that you can then use this result to accurately predict individual human behavior.

To give another example: male students in the U.S. score higher on the math portion of the SAT test than female students - that is, you can show that the mean score for males is higher than the mean score for females.

But the overlap in the two distributions is huge.

So if I give a particular score, say a perfect 800, was scored by a student in, oh, I don't know, say the spring of 1983, could you tell me if the student was male or female?

No, and you couldn't even give me a meaningful probability of one versus the other.

That's where saying Chloe's behavior (look! Mods, I'm back on topic!!!) is "typical" of females is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

And just shows your own bias.

Kaiphantom
September 5th, 2010, 04:57 PM
Actually, I'm laughing at you if you think Skinner's box is anywhere near the forefront of current psychology research.

I never said it was, but there are still very good lessons to learn from it concerning the processes of positive and negative reinforcement with regards to behavior modification. There's actually been some current work detailing how many MMO's and online games (like FB ones) are being set up as Skinner boxes in order to keep their players addicted and playing. Fascinating and quite modern area of study.

Let's see, we'll skip the ad hominem and continue on to...


In one last ditch attempt to frame this in a real way; think of what we have learned about connectivity and intelligence. Generally, there is an overall pattern of denser, more highly connected brains and intelligence, right? Well, if we were to extrapolate that without thinking about the natural human variation that we know is everywhere, and without realizing that there is more to any measure of "intelligence" that we could possible come up with than what we can understand from brain studies, we would come up with the idea that humans are at their peak of "intelligence" at about 20 and that people in their 60s, for example, would always be less intelligent than those in their 20s.

A nice biological answer, which given your position as a biologist and not a psychologist, is somehow fitting. But otherwise... what's the point? We're discussing psychology, not biology.


The idea that there are "typical" male and female behaviors, in the absence of cultural influences, is a hypothesis that can't really be tested - because we have never raised males and females in any human culture in a controlled way that would allow for that sort of study.

Yeah, quick question, and I'm real curious to see how you respond... Generally speaking, would you say there are psychological differences between male and female humans? Given the reference book cited, I would say that you are aware of them. Thus, you have admitted that, generally speaking, males and females have typical behaviors.


One other thing: several times in your post you use the world "typical". But what do you mean by that?

Perhaps it wasn't clear, but it's another form of "generally speaking" which scientists do use. It's a reference to a larger percentage chance, while still acknowledging that there are exceptions to the rule.


Because of the variation inherent in human behavior (and indeed, in pretty much all biological processes), knowing that there is a difference in the mean of two distributions (for our example, the mean time in males versus the mean time in females) is a long way from telling us something about any particular member of the populations (any individual).

Then you are deliberately turning a blind eye to specificity with regards to human behavior from a very precise population. Remember, we're talking Chloe here, and her behaviors as someone raised from the US population. That means she shares behavioral traits consistent with other females from her pool.


The "pop" in pop psychology comes not from saying that there are distributional differences in male versus female behavior (that can be shown for some specific traits, with the proper study), but that you can then use this result to accurately predict individual human behavior.

Just like I predicted you'd respond. =) Of course, you might not consider my prediction to be highly valued, but it does show that human behavior can be predicted. Social Engineers, also known as grifters, scammers and phishers, use this principle daily on many different people from all types of backgrounds. They know how to act and what to say, to get people to give them money.


That's where saying Chloe's behavior (look! Mods, I'm back on topic!!!) is "typical" of females is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

Well, considering you've basically admitted that females do share behavioral traits, you're either suffering from cognitive dissonance, or you already see that my point is valid and are trying to save face. Although, I do have an idea what you will say when you respond, so I'll just let you say it as it'll help the conversation along.

But let me further nail it down for you with a couple of questions...

Which gender generally evaluates potential mates for security and commitment primarily?

Which gender generally evaluates potential mates for physical beauty primarily?

Once you start down this path, you'll begin to understand Chloe and her decisions. But of course, if you still disagree, you may want to call these guys that did a study on What Men and Women Want in a Mate (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070903204845.htm) and tell them they're wrong. And perhaps you should then go to wikipedia, and tell them they should delete their entire entry on Sexual Selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection) since any it implies typical behaviors with regards to mate selection.

I predict your answer, if you respond, to be something along the lines of: "Yes, you are right about those scientific principles, but somehow they don't apply to Chloe."

SupremeLegate
September 28th, 2010, 08:39 AM
I think it makes perfect since for Chloe to be with Scott, given her obvious initial physical attraction to him and their emotional connection, over the loss of parents. However I don’t think there is any deep emotional connection, as evident by her inability to talk to him about her nightmares or his inability to comfort her.

As for how Chloe feels toward Eli, I think they had a much stronger emotional connection than her and Scott. And while she does not have romantic feelings for Eli, yet IMO, he is important to her. This was shown when she talked to him after the events of “Divided,” and I find it interesting that we did not see it have much, if any, affect on Chloe and Scoots relationship.

So I think she meant: that Eli is important to her and that she knows about his feelings toward her, she just does not share them.

As for the other debate going on in this thread;

I think we are all the result of Nature & Nurture. On a biological level women, and men, are drawn to a person who will provide the best offspring and be able to provide for said offspring. This can also be adjusted by the society in which one grows up, as a result they will also be attracted to the type of person that society says they should be.

So it could be said that Chloe’s relationship Scott is based on biological and sociological conditioning, while her relationship with Eli is based on her own personality.

Thats how I see the whole situation as well as the meaning of what Chole said.

Pharaoh Atem
September 28th, 2010, 10:03 PM
she knows how eli feels but she made her choice and is with scott. and scott's not blind he knows eli is fond of her but i think eli will respect her decision

SupremeLegate
September 29th, 2010, 04:17 AM
she knows how eli feels but she made her choice and is with scott. and scott's not blind he knows eli is fond of her but i think eli will respect her decision

I agree that Eli will respect that she is with Scott, he has shown this all through season 1. However, I am not convinced that Scott truly realizes how fond of Chloe Eli really is. To me he has always come off as being completely oblivious to it.

garhkal
October 8th, 2010, 03:37 AM
With Greers comment in Intervention part 2 to Scott, about "That boy won't let a lick of damag come to a single hair on her" i think shows that at least some do..