Nicholas Berg

[David]

What does everyone think about what happened to Nicholas Berg? Did he deserve it? Was it one of the worst acts imaginable? Have you seen the video? Do you want to see the video?

[Spaceminx]

Haven't seen it and don't want to. One of our newsreaders made a good point in a newspaper column he wrote recently. He had no intentions of watching it but then thought that how could he comment with any authority on something he hadn't seen? So he saw it, thought it was the most sickening thing he'd ever watched but thought people *should* see it (can't remember why now). What happened to him was dreadful but sadly inevitable after the reports of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US (and possibly British) troops reached his captors.

[Crazedwraith]

Theres no way anyone deserves to have there head lopped of on tape.

[Teal'c]

Theres no way anyone deserves to have there head lopped of on tape.
lopped? It was slow.

When I read about it in the newspaper, I pushed my dinner aside and nearly got sick... and I was just reading about it. It is disgraceful. I never thought that they could top what the US soldiers were doing to the prisoners, but they did....

[David]

My dad saw it and called me up to discuss it. He said I shouldn't see it. So of course, I did, and it's something I will never, never forget. All at once I was horrified, disgusted, sick to a near-vomiting degree, and possessed by an anger I was unaccustomed to realizing.

I watched it because I was tired of feeling so "on the other side of the world." "Oh, they're just sick, demented people, tra-la-la." I realized that, simply because I'm an American, or that I worship the Hebrew God: If they could kill me, they would.

No more games. These al-quaeda terrorists, these monsters need to be terminated. Like Pearl Harbor before them, they have no clue of the anger they've stirred.

[sgeureka]

I read about it on the internet and couldn't believe it so I turned on the TV, and of course the first news was exactly *that*. The thought that this was real was so disgusting that I had to turn away my head and I just heard the noises. I don't know whether they really broadcasted the murder or how much of it was sensored.

It is so sickening. As are the pictures of the American tortures. I have watched/looked at neither one of them. And I don't intend to so in the near future.

I watched it because I was tired of feeling so "on the other side of the world." "Oh, they're just sick, demented people, tra-la-la." I realized that, simply because I'm an American, or that I worship the Hebrew God: If they could kill me, they would.

No more games. These al-quaeda terrorists, these monsters need to be terminated. Like Pearl Harbor before them, they have no clue of the anger they've stirred.
You are right that they should be terminated. BUT you don't know who "they" are (do you have the ability to look somebody in the face and see that they are evil?). Not everybody from that region is "they". And just because a few American soldiers tortured prisoners doesn't mean that all soldiers are bad or that all Americans are bad.

It is okay that you are angry but don't take it out on all the people from that region (where are they exactly from?) just as you don't want them to put a few nuclear bombs in the Western hemisphere because they don't like the politics of a few Western countries.

[FixxxeR]

I read about it on the internet and couldn't believe it so I turned on the TV, and of course the first news was exactly *that*. The thought that this was real was so disgusting that I had to turn away my head and I just heard the noises. I don't know whether they really broadcasted the murder or how much of it was sensored.

It is so sickening. As are the pictures of the American tortures. I have watched/looked at neither one of them. And I don't intend to so in the near future.


You are right that they should be terminated. BUT you don't know who "they" are (do you have the ability to look somebody in the face and see that they are evil?). Not everybody from that region is "they". And just because a few American soldiers tortured prisoners doesn't mean that all soldiers are bad or that all Americans are bad.

It is okay that you are angry but don't take it out on all the people from that region (where are they exactly from?) just as you don't want them to put a few nuclear bombs in the Western hemisphere because they don't like the politics of a few Western countries.

I think you use the term "torture" too loosely. If by torture you mean made them strip down and get made fun of for a while/jump in a naked dogpile then yes they were "tortured".

[David]

sgeureka, I'm not talking about Iraqis in general. Not at all. I'm referring to the Al-quaeda. And they will be found.

Of course you wouldn't bomb and decimate all of New York to get rid of her street gangs.

[mylo1012]

first of all i want to say upfront i dont think nicolas berg deserved to die the way he did ,but

to give my non american thoughts on this

if you attack a country ,mess with their culture ,humiliate them so the whole world can see ,you really think they gonna sit back and watch??

i can understand that if its " one of your own" you are upset and angry ,but its a war and the first rule is people die ,some deserve it ,most are innocent

if you mess with a country's culture by humiliate and abuse iraqi prisoners, the enemy is going to look for something similar to hit back with ,in this case nicolas berg ,its not right

in africa this happens on daily bases people get brulaly murdered by the hundreds , yet it gets 3 lines on page 18 of the paper ,coz there isnt any emotion shared with it ,no one bothers to put their focus there ,coz its not "there own"

no disrespect in anyway ,just a different prespective from my side

[FixxxeR]

first of all i want to say upfront i dont think nicolas berg deserved to die the way he did ,but

to give my non american thoughts on this

if you attack a country ,mess with their culture ,humiliate them so the whole world can see ,you really think they gonna sit back and watch??

i can understand that if its " one of your own" you are upset and angry ,but its a war and the first rule is people die ,some deserve it ,most are innocent

if you mess with a country's culture by humiliate and abuse iraqi prisoners, the enemy is going to look for something similar to hit back with ,in this case nicolas berg ,its not right

in africa this happens on daily bases people get brulaly murdered by the hundreds , yet it gets 3 lines on page 18 of the paper ,coz there isnt any emotion shared with it ,no one bothers to put their focus there ,coz its not "there own"

no disrespect in anyway ,just a different prespective from my side

war happens sometimes, it doesn't mean you need to regress to the level of barbarians and saw someones head off with a kitchen knife.

[mylo1012]

and in what part did i say it was right to do that?

[FixxxeR]

and in what part did i say it was right to do that?

I never implied you said it was right just that you were trying to justify their actions because we "humiliated" them.

[mylo1012]

I never implied you said it was right just that you were trying to justify their actions because we "humiliated" them.


justifying??

where did i do that?

[FixxxeR]

if you mess with a country's culture by humiliate and abuse iraqi prisoners, the enemy is going to look for something similar to hit back with ,in this case nicolas berg ,its not right

You use similar as if making iraqi boys get naked is similar to not just a decapitation but a brutal and painful one at that.

[mylo1012]

first of all people also died in that prison ,but that aside american culture and iraqi culture are very different ,for iraqi's humiliation is worse then death or atleast similair

they responded to the american act
its not about justifying its about action causes reaction --> humiliation causes brutal murder ................now may brutal murder be the worse for american culture ,doesnt mean the iraqis see that the same

for the record ,i think its both wrong ,so dont say i justify it

[FixxxeR]

first of all people also died in that prison ,but that aside american culture and iraqi culture are very different ,for iraqi's humiliation is worse then death or atleast similair

they responded to the american act
its not about justifying its about action causes reaction --> humiliation causes brutal murder ................now may brutal murder be the worse for american culture ,doesnt mean the iraqis see that the same

for the record ,i think its both wrong ,so dont say i justify it

:rolleyes:

[mylo1012]

:rolleyes:


"rolls eyes (sarcastic)"

very mature reply

[FixxxeR]

"rolls eyes (sarcastic)"

very mature reply

everything you just said was completely ridiculous and I wasn't going to bother giving it a reply because you probably wouldn't get it anyway.

[sgeureka]

sgeureka, I'm not talking about Iraqis in general. Not at all. I'm referring to the Al-quaeda. And they will be found.
Yes, I know, but my point was *HOW* do you know that someone *IS* Al-quaeda? Without their guns or explosives strapped to their body, they look like other innocent people. And they won't be that stupid to tell that they are in fact Al-quaeda.

The US only knows a few of them by name and face, and if those are captured and put for trial, do you think that all of that movement will be gone forever? If that was the case (like after World War II), then there wouldn't be any Nazis left, in Germany and elsewhere. (Of course their numbers were reduced extremely, but all in all the majority of the German people was willing to be helped by the allies, and I don't see that in the case with the Al-quaeda. IMO of course.)

[petzke_42]

I know it is sickening, but I feel as if it is something I should see, can anyone tell me where I can dl it? If no one will, that's fine, it's not something I need to (or even probably should) see.

[FixxxeR]

I know it is sickening, but I feel as if it is something I should see, can anyone tell me where I can dl it? If no one will, that's fine, it's not something I need to (or even probably should) see.

I can send you the link via AOL instant messanger, but I don't think that posting the link on here would be in the spirit of the PG atmosphere on these forums.

[petzke_42]

Yeah, that's probably true...

[David]

if you attack a country ,mess with their culture ,humiliate them so the whole world can see ,you really think they gonna sit back and watch??


Al-Zar Qawi, the man who killed Berg, is Jordanian. He's not even from Iraq. All he is is a monster.

[David]

I know it is sickening, but I feel as if it is something I should see, can anyone tell me where I can dl it? If no one will, that's fine, it's not something I need to (or even probably should) see.

My dad is computer illiterate and he was able to find a link to the site in a matter of minutes. Keep in mind, though, it's only available for download the first ten minutes of every hour. Use any search engine.

I can perfectly understand why some would not want to see it. I honestly had to turn away for most of it. But I'm an American, and he was one of ours. I'm simply glad I did. I face this war with a different feeling in my gut. Not one of retribution, but one of the spirit of truth. Why we're out there protecting freedom and trying to rebuild a country of desparate people.

That's all he was trying to do.

And this is what he got.

[mylo1012]

everything you just said was completely ridiculous and I wasn't going to bother giving it a reply because you probably wouldn't get it anyway.

this is funny ,you fail to understand what i mean ,give it your own spin to it and then say that its ridiculous ,and then say i prob dont get it

[mylo1012]

Al-Zar Qawi, the man who killed Berg, is Jordanian. He's not even from Iraq. All he is is a monster.

i know ,put that wanst the point ,you dont have to be in iraqi to get "even" with america and i agree that he is a monster and his actions are brutal and wrong ,but that doesnt change the action causes reaction (which was all i tried to point out untill my view on things were called ridiculus)

[FixxxeR]

i know ,put that wanst the point ,you dont have to be in iraqi to get "even" with america and i agree that he is a monster and his actions are brutal and wrong ,but that doesnt change the action causes reaction (which was all i tried to point out untill my view on things were called ridiculus)

Yes action causes reaction good work. So whats your point? By going into Iraq people were going to die and the iraqis would retaliate? I was trying to point out that you were calling our actions somehow similar to theirs which they are in no way similar. Prisoner "abuse" != cutting someones head off in an incredibly painful and horrific way.


this is funny ,you fail to understand what i mean ,give it your own spin to it and then say that its ridiculous ,and then say i prob dont get it


Heres another :rolleyes: for you

[Champos]

I'm not talking about Iraqis in general. Not at all. I'm referring to the Al-quaeda. And they will be found.


But in my opinion to say the problem is simply Al-Qua'eda is as simplistic as saying the problem is simply Iraq. Yes, the killers, the murderers of Nicholas Berg should be punished, but the probelm runs much deeper than that. I am in no way going to try to justify such actions by blaming the US, because I do not believe such actions can be justified. But... there are major problems in the Arab world. Part of that is undoubtedly the fault of the West generally and of America in particular. Though you may not like to admit it, you have caused a hell of a lot of problems over the past century, just as we did over the two centuries or so before. But it is not all the US' fault. The Arab world has to take its fair share of the blame. Robert Kilroy-Silk, a British TV presenter (who's intensely annoying though that's not the point) was villified a while back and lost his job because of some comments he made about Islam not having contributed anything worhwhile for the past thousand years. My natural reaction was to scoff at what he said, to dismiss it as rascist and ignorant ramblings. Everyone knows that the Arabs were pioneers in the fields of maths and science and medicine and that for centuries their societies were much more free than our own of the time. But that was a long time ago. However much they may like to blame the west for all their problems, the west has only really been interfering (in a serious way) for the last two hundred years or so, and in my mind the problems go back a lot further than that. I think it's time the Arab world accepted some responsibility for its actions.

[petzke_42]

My dad is computer illiterate and he was able to find a link to the site in a matter of minutes. Keep in mind, though, it's only available for download the first ten minutes of every hour. Use any search engine.



I know, I'm just lazy.

To everyone else: No matter what your stance, War is Hell.

[Teal'c]

You use similar as if making iraqi boys get naked is similar to not just a decapitation but a brutal and painful one at that.
Get naked? It was a lot more than that. They were beaten, deprived of human rights and told it they moved they'd be electrocuted. Now, I'm well aware that what happened to Nick Berg was FAR worse (And there are already conspiracy theories that it was actually Americans who did it :rolleyes:), what those American soilders did was terrible too, and they probably weren't acting on their own (Even though, any half intelligent person knows when their "orders" have gone too far). To suggest that all those American soilders did was "make the prisoners get naked" is a sereve understatement.

[mylo1012]

Yes action causes reaction good work. So whats your point? By going into Iraq people were going to die and the iraqis would retaliate? I was trying to point out that you were calling our actions somehow similar to theirs which they are in no way similar. Prisoner "abuse" != cutting someones head off in an incredibly painful and horrific way.

"our actions" ,right

sure its always much worse when an american dies

i dont know what you were trying to point out but it wasnt something i said ,so dude try reading or give it up

Heres another :rolleyes: for you

f-you too

[FixxxeR]

f-you too

hahahaha did you just try and argue with me inside my quote? also very mature :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Shipperahoy]

This thread is getting out of hand. If people aren't able to have mature discussions without degenerating into name calling and childish insults it will be shut down without further warning.

[David]

what those American soilders did was terrible too, and they probably weren't acting on their own

What the American soldeirs have done is inexcusable, and fortunately they will be delt with a swift hand ushering them behind prison bars, plus a lengthy investigation into other possible connections. As it should be.

Though I doubt that if soldiers hadn't mistreated prisoners Berg would be around now. There are rumors going around that they saught him out with his Jewish name.

[FixxxeR]

Though I doubt that if soldiers hadn't mistreated prisoners Berg would be around now. There are rumors going around that they saught him out with his Jewish name.

I'm sure the prison abuse was just the easiest reason to execute berg. If the whole prison scandal wouldn't have happened the same thing probably would have happened except they would have blamed it on american presence in Iraq or the middle east.

[David]

Exactly.

[mylo1012]

hahahaha did you just try and argue with me inside my quote? also very mature :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


nah i wasnt ,it was an error on my part ,well at least you got your laugh out of it , ironic thoguh how you caught this mistake but totaly mis the talent of having a normal conversation when it isnt your point of view

[Madeleine]

FixxxeR, mylo1012, this seems to be getting personal between you two.

Please would you both stop posting in this thread, you have both left the topic behind anyway.

If either of you reply to the other, mention the other, or quote from the other's posts, I'll delete your post.

Thank you

Madeleine_W
moderator

[Aphrodite]

What happened to Nicolas Berg was horrifying to say the least. My husband saw it *video*and he said that no words can explain or be expressed when he heard NB screaming intermixed with what the terrorists were proclaiming while they did the act. He didn't want me to see it and as a matter of fact I don't think I could, my imagination of what it happened is enough to sicken me along with what I've read and glimpses of what I've seen on TV News.

But to put my two cents in, this is unfortunately a consequence of war, and USA and it's other allies are at war with TERRORISM and Terrorists alike wherever and whoever they happen to be and unfortunately innocents like NB are a consequence of this war. But look back to WWII which wasn't so long ago, there were major atrocities and even genocide (Jews) that occured in that war. It's sad to even think about it, but War seems to be part of everyday life it seems, whether it be in your backyard or thousand miles (another country) away.

PEACE, when will humankind ever see it? Is this war just another sign of the Book of Revelation/Armageddon/ End of the World to come?

[David]

Good points, Aphrodite. I'm glad we have shows like Stargate and Star Trek that paint a hopeful future, as deluded as they might ultimately be :(

I pray not.

[Madeleine]

But to put my two cents in, this is unfortunately a consequence of war, and USA and it's other allies are at war with TERRORISM and Terrorists alike wherever and whoever they happen to be.



The problem is that a lot of people in Islamic countries believe that the US & co are at war with *Islam*. The incidents of abuse recently will greatly assist those who wish to portray the current state of affairs as USA vs Islam to trusting readers/viewers/followers. Being made to be naked in the presence of the opposite sex is against the Islamic religion, and it is seen by moslem opponents of the coalition as a direct affront to Islam.

It is a real tragedy that the abuse happened, as it has set back a lot of the progress made in getting Iraqis and others to trust the occupying forces.

Berg's death was not because of that, he had been targeted and taken long before those photos were published. He'd have died anyway, probably quietly shot and left at a roadside. The ghastliness of how they killed him though, it's hard to predict what it will mean for America, if it will sap people's will to support the coallition as the Madrid bombings did, or if it will galvanise them.

[Aphrodite]

Good points, Aphrodite. I'm glad we have shows like Stargate and Star Trek that paint a hopeful future, as deluded as they might ultimately be :(

I pray not.
Perhaps not deluded, only time can tell. There are still many good people out there who want a better future for generations to come....however, in the meantime, it is somewhat nice to escape our reality and be part of "stargate/star trek, et al" reality instead. :)

[Aphrodite]

The problem is that a lot of people in Islamic countries believe that the US & co are at war with *Islam*. The incidents of abuse recently will greatly assist those who wish to portray the current state of affairs as USA vs Islam to trusting readers/viewers/followers. Being made to be naked in the presence of the opposite sex is against the Islamic religion, and it is seen by moslem opponents of the coalition as a direct affront to Islam. I suppose there are those who simply believe that it has become a "Religious" war and a basis for justifying what has thus far transgressed in this war. But whatever the reason, War is War and it sometimes makes me wonder that WE the human species of this world and perhaps the only human species of the entire universe (open for discussion :)) would want to wipe each other out...I mean we are the only ones *homo-sapiens* here *earth/universe* for goodness sakes!:D

Berg's death was not because of that, he had been targeted and taken long before those photos were published. I read in several newspapers that it may have been bearucratic red tape from the US government that partially lead to Berg's capture and ultimately his unfortunate kidnapping and horrific death.....if that was the case, that was some majorly big blunder. :(