Across the Sea (615)

[GateWorld]

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<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/lost/s6/index.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">ACROSS THE SEA</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 615</FONT>
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Far in the island's past, a mysterious woman raises a pair of boys in the hopes that one of them will one day take her place. But Jacob's brother has desires of his own.

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[Morbo]

As an avid lover, supporter, and inquisitor of all things LOST, sticking with it through all the lame episodes or stories, or unanswered questions, etc, i will easily say, this episode was the first time was let down.
way, way down.
So much potential to answer so many questions in so little time, and we got...jacob and MiB are brothers which we pretty much already knew, Jacob created the smoke monster - though we still don't know what it is, and we found out who Adam & Eve are - even though, just like me, I'm sure everyone figured that out 10 minutes into the episode when we saw the 3 of them living at the caves.

An incredibly wasted opportunity here.

[the fifth man]

I am just about to watch this one. I had to DVR it.

[Skydiver]

i thnk it was great. It answered some questions and told a lot of backstory on the island

it was one of hte few episodes lately that had my attention all the way through

[AVFan]

Pretty good episode. Answers some questions, but creates others.

Can we conclude that MIB is a smoke monster and not actually Jacob's brother? I think that's safe to say. So what is MIB actually? Is 'he' actually the island? Or rather, the personification of the island?

I'll write more later. Right now I'm extremely PO'ed after a terrible Cavs loss. :mad:

[Skydiver]

Smokey is the 'ghost' of Jacob's brother, so to speak.

and possibly what Mother was trying to keep contained. I'm not sure if she was really protecting hte light or if the light was a trap, a lure to bring in a new host to allow smokey to get out

[SBN]

First off, what language were they speaking at the very beginning? Her dress and hair made me think at first she was Latin (Greek/Roman). I did not catch all of it, but I thought I heard the mother say "gratias". Unfortunately I was in the kitchen at the time, with the volume turned up, it was still hard to hear. Also Claudia the name is Roman, but Jacob is Hebrew (or at least the English variant that she spoke, she did not say Jacobus).

Second, long episode for very little information, but only with more questions. Who was the woman that raised the two boys? Why did she not want them to leave? Why...why ....why. All in all I think this episode was a little bit drawn out to serve it's purpose.

Now, finally I have to rant. As I have been fearing for some time, I am definitely afraid this show is going to pull a BSG on us. I did not watch 6 seasons of this show for it to be some religious/supernatural. I was under the impression, and rightly so thanks to the producers and network that this was a Science Fiction show. However if this show ends with some "God" ending, I will forever be done with Lost, these writers and producers, and any more of these "mystery" shows.

[MattSilver 3k]

Episode was fine. It was just an origin story, and introduced a few elements that'll no doubt come in handy in the next few episodes (Like say, the fact that Desmond can probably resist being turned into the Smoke Monster if he went into the island's heart, unlike MIB). It has one thing I'm taking to heart: Not everything will be answered, and oftentimes the answers we get will lead to more questions, and the collective fandom needs to get over that. The show doesn't need to be bogged down with answers - that's for the hardcore fandom to do - they'll take the circumstantial evidence the show gave them and answer their own questions. It may suck, but if they didn't realise by season three or so that not everything would be answered, or by season five they didn't realise that the things answered are ambiguous at best, that's their misconception on how Lost operates.

Notice the title? It makes sense, doesn't it?

I'm looking for just the remainder of the story in the last hours - if MIB will die, who will replace Jacob, what's Desmond's role?, what's the alt reality's role?, and most importantly, where are our favourite characters going to end up?

[Nemises]

mib and smokey are different entities.

mib is dead and jacob didn't kill him...he was unconscious when he floated into the light and presumably got killed by the smokey who got released and took his memories and form just like it did with locke.

locke's body was buried and so was mib's body.

[giggles83]

Wow, just wow, this esp was an enlighting of who jacob and the mib(his twin brother) is all about and who they are and how they came to be, and how did the tunnel of light produce the smokey monster, it was interesting cause it showed the wine bottle and the game that the 2 brothers were playing with the black and white stones, that jack and kate found at the end, it blew me away.,,,, can't get over it that this is coming to an end.

[boyd22]

mib and smokey are different entities.

mib is dead and jacob didn't kill him...he was unconscious when he floated into the light and presumably got killed by the smokey who got released and took his memories and form just like it did with locke.

locke's body was buried and so was mib's body.

If that was the case, why is this smoke monster still following the same rules and has the same desires that the MIB had? The MIB was told that he couldn't kill his brother Jacob. We know not-Locke/smokie needed a loophole in order to kill Jacob. Someone to indirectly kill Jacob for him. If the smoke monster simply took the MIB's memories and form, i don't think it would be following the same rules as the MIB. I think when the MIB was exposed to the light (likely the electromagnetic properties of the island), his Consciousness and anger formed into the smoke monster. Earlier in the season not-Locke said Jacob stole his body, since it was Jacob who pushed the MIB into the water where he floated into the light, its likely not-Locke was referring to that.

[aaobuttons]

I thought the episode was fantastic. Like the mother said at the beginning, the questions will just lead to more questions. I think those that don't like the answers they are receiving need to just enjoy the episode for what it was. An origin story. But not THE origin story. The fact that it starts with the revelation that the twins are just candidates in their own right was brilliant.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

mib and smokey are different entities.

mib is dead and jacob didn't kill him...he was unconscious when he floated into the light and presumably got killed by the smokey who got released and took his memories and form just like it did with locke.

locke's body was buried and so was mib's body.

Smokey is MIB. He just lost his body. That's why he told Richard that Jacob stole his body. They are the same person/thing.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

I think the light creates a manifestation of w/e is in a person's heart/soul when they enter it and that's what makes it so dangerous. Adam (MIB) was thrown into it after he had been pushed into a state of anger and hate from seeing Eve stop him from leaving the island and killing all of his people. It was interesting that when he woke up he saw the smoke coming up over the trees before he saw the village destroyed.

[majorsal]

i'm not sure how i feel about this episode. i'm sick of more questions being given than answered.

i'm going to ask some questions, and i hope someone(s) can answer them. :p

1- did jacob accidently kill his brother (when he was floating into the light cave)?

2- did the brother ever actually be given a name?

3- why did the woman have to kill the mother of jacob/brother?

4- is smokey really the brother, or did smokey just take on the image of him?

5- why did the woman/fake mom like brother more? was it be/c he was more inquisitive and she thought he'd make a better island protector candidate?

6- was brother really a bad guy? (he didn't appear to be)

7- what language was fake mother speaking to the real mom? (what was real mom's language?)


i know some of you have asked these questions (i read the thread first), but i might have missed something in the ep, or someone might be reading that has a theory of two of answers. :p

[marty2006]

i'm not sure how i feel about this episode. i'm sick of more questions being given than answered.

i'm going to ask some questions, and i hope someone(s) can answer them. :p

1- did jacob accidently kill his brother (when he was floating into the light cave)?

2- did the brother ever actually be given a name?

3- why did the woman have to kill the mother of jacob/brother?

4- is smokey really the brother, or did smokey just take on the image of him?

5- why did the woman/fake mom like brother more? was it be/c he was more inquisitive and she thought he'd make a better island protector candidate?

6- was brother really a bad guy? (he didn't appear to be)

7- what language was fake mother speaking to the real mom? (what was real mom's language?)


i know some of you have asked these questions (i read the thread first), but i might have missed something in the ep, or someone might be reading that has a theory of two of answers. :p

1. He inadvertently destroyed his brothers body but not his consciousness.
2. No.
3. So she wouldn't take the boys back to her people and corrupt them.
4. It is really Jacobs brother.
5. Unsure about this one. I think its more to do with he was special in that he could see the dead etc vis a vis Hurley.
6. I wouldn't say so, not to begin with. He just wanted the truth and to see the world.
7. The language to me sounded Spanish perhaps Portuguese.

[giggles83]

You got to wonder about this tunnel of light and how it came about, also why didn't the fake mom give Jacob's twin a name, after she killed the real mother. What was in Jacobs mind when he beat up his brother and pushed him into the tunnel of light,so what actually is the answer here to who is the mib and smokey monster, are they the same or are they different and how so. these are the things we wonder about.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

i'm not sure how i feel about this episode. i'm sick of more questions being given than answered.

i'm going to ask some questions, and i hope someone(s) can answer them. :p

1- did jacob accidently kill his brother (when he was floating into the light cave)?

2- did the brother ever actually be given a name?

3- why did the woman have to kill the mother of jacob/brother?

4- is smokey really the brother, or did smokey just take on the image of him?

5- why did the woman/fake mom like brother more? was it be/c he was more inquisitive and she thought he'd make a better island protector candidate?

6- was brother really a bad guy? (he didn't appear to be)

7- what language was fake mother speaking to the real mom? (what was real mom's language?)


i know some of you have asked these questions (i read the thread first), but i might have missed something in the ep, or someone might be reading that has a theory of two of answers. :p

1. No. They made it clear before he threw him in:

ADAM: You can't kill me Jacob (then something about their mother)
JACOB: Don't worry, brother. I'm not going to kill you.

2. No but they made a point of showing the clip where Locke called the bodies in the cave Adam and Eve (from season 1) so I'm going with Adam.

3. So she wouldn't come after he kids I'm assuming.

4. Yeah it's still Adam. His soul was just separated from his physical body. (He told Richard that Jacob stole his body in 'Ab Aeterno')

5. He was smarter and seemed to understand things better than Jacob and plus he could see dead people.

6. That's subjective I guess, but not in my eyes. I thought he was pushed into becoming a monster as opposed to just being evil.

7. Some people have said it was Latin which would make sense.

[the fifth man]

I really liked what we saw in this episode. I didn't mind getting more clarification on the lives of Smokey/MIB and Jacob. It was nice that we were given a clearer picture.

[SBN]

7- what language was fake mother speaking to the real mom? (what was real mom's language?)



The language they were speaking at the beginning was Latin, which indicates she could be anything from Greek/Macedonian, Roman, or even Egyptian. But, she did say her name was Claudia which is purely Roman. I do not believe at the time slaves were given Roman names either, and her dress indicated she certainly was no slave.

[fumblesmcstupid]

I enjoyed the whole episode.

I liked Allison Janey as the "Mother"

I thought I heard "Zane" or "Thane" as M.i.B's name.

When everyone was *timehopping* wasn't there a statue of Anubis? And Jacob and MIB were sitting at the base of it?

[Skydiver]

earlier this season? yeah, there was a time when the boys were at the bast of the statue

[SBN]

I enjoyed the whole episode.

I liked Allison Janey as the "Mother"

I thought I heard "Zane" or "Thane" as M.i.B's name.

When everyone was *timehopping* wasn't there a statue of Anubis? And Jacob and MIB were sitting at the base of it?

Yes, it was a statue of Taweret, who was the Egyptian god of fertility and birth.

[flobo]

This episode really changed the perception of Jacob and MIB, to me.

Jacob pretty much still obey his "mother" while he knows she killed his real mother, and a whole village on the island, all this to protect a light he knows nothing about.

MIB, is much more understandable, he almost seems like the good guy, here, if i didn't know what he did in the last few episodes.

But what i don't understand is why didn't they let him go BEFORE he became the smoke monster. I don't thing it would have destroyed the world then.

Another thing is that i remember there was talk about him being a security system, last year, to protect the temple. It makes very little sense now

[boyd22]

I enjoyed the whole episode.

I liked Allison Janey as the "Mother"

I thought I heard "Zane" or "Thane" as M.i.B's name.

When everyone was *timehopping* wasn't there a statue of Anubis? And Jacob and MIB were sitting at the base of it?

Yeah, the statue was of Taweret. But it actually resembles Sobek more than it does Taweret. It's likely we won't see or learn who built it on the show. Which is probably why the producers hinted that it was the Egyptian's long before this episode.

[boyd22]

This episode really changed the perception of Jacob and MIB, to me.

Jacob pretty much still obey his "mother" while he knows she killed his real mother, and a whole village on the island, all this to protect a light he knows nothing about.

MIB, is much more understandable, he almost seems like the good guy, here, if i didn't know what he did in the last few episodes.

But what i don't understand is why didn't they let him go BEFORE he became the smoke monster. I don't thing it would have destroyed the world then.

Another thing is that i remember there was talk about him being a security system, last year, to protect the temple. It makes very little sense now

Rousseau only assumed it was a sercurity system because thats what her boy friend who had the sickness told her.

[aaobuttons]

Mother didn't know that the boy in black could see dead people. To me, she seemed to love him more because he was the most like her, he was smart and could lie, unlike Jacob, who went along with whatever he was told and couldn't lie.

I don't think that the MIB is evil, like most of the characters on Lost, he's shown to have the ability to do both good and evil. The whole show is about the choices that people make. I think Jacob's actions originally, him being violent and casting his brother into the light, is one of the things that change him into being such a pacifist.

[mizzoueng]

After debating over this a few times, I've come up with this:

1. Jacobs brother is smokey, fake-Mom said going into the light was a fate worse than death. I take this to mean that his soul was ripped from his body, also since he was "augmented" by fake-Mom and he "died" in a violent fashion that shaped what his soul looked like, but there is a problem with this scenario....

2. We are assuming that fake-Mom destroyed the wheel cavern and the village. Now the only way she could do that (as she was getting frail) is by blowing it up, or becoming a smokey. We do know that the village was burned, not wrecked like smokey does now. Is it possible she was a fire-monster? The other option is that MIB was smokey prior to the light-bath, being knocked out by fake-Mom and the trauma associated with the betrayal caused him to change in his unconscious state and lash out at the first thing he encountered, which was the village next to him.

3. Fake-Mom said Jacob was "like me now". Now, if you go with the assumption that fake-Mom can go smokey, this could infer that Jacob was a smokey too. SO, does this mean that Jacob was the smokey that killed all the people in the earlier seasons? And if one of the Losties takes over Jacobs place, will they become a smokey and then there will be a Lostie-smokey vs MIB-smokey showdown?

4. I think there is signficance in the fact that fake-Mom was killed prior to her saying anything to MIB. We've seen this theme in the show with people being sent to kill MIB, but I think it is just an assumption that Jacob made and may not be correct.

5. The light, notice how the light is "the warmest light" and "bright" and yellow? The light seen coming from the wheel cavern was the same. But last season with the time travel and all, the light was blue-ish and ice, ice cold (parkas anyone?). Fake-Mom said the light was "life, death, everything". When MIB, who was alive at the time, got pushed into the light, he absorbed the "life" part of the light but being "immortal" (Fake-Mom said she made it they could not die), it caused him to be ripped from his body and become energy/smokey. All that was left was the "death, everything" which is why the light is so cold now.

6. MIB. They said he can't take the shape of his original body anymore. I think I know why. HE took Lockes form since his body was brought to the island, basically, he took a snapshot of the dead lockes form and took it. He did the same thing with his body when he went into the light. He cannot go back to his body since all that is left is bones.

7. Timeline. This is messed up. Real-Mom looked Greek/Roman, the other people looked somewhat Viking/Greek. They had a grasp of metallurgy as they had steel tools and blades. THey also somewhat understood magnetism. So this is somewhere near the end of the bronze age? But Egyptians still need to come to the Island, they build the Temple to Jacob/Smokey and have the smokey shrine underneath with the cravings showing Anubis kneeling to Smokey. The life giving pool appeared to be linked to Jacob as it went "dirty" when he died. Not a history buff, but do these events line up with each other?

[AVFan]

After debating over this a few times, I've come up with this:

1. Jacobs brother is smokey, fake-Mom said going into the light was a fate worse than death. I take this to mean that his soul was ripped from his body, also since he was "augmented" by fake-Mom and he "died" in a violent fashion that shaped what his soul looked like, but there is a problem with this scenario....

2. We are assuming that fake-Mom destroyed the wheel cavern and the village. Now the only way she could do that (as she was getting frail) is by blowing it up, or becoming a smokey. We do know that the village was burned, not wrecked like smokey does now. Is it possible she was a fire-monster? The other option is that MIB was smokey prior to the light-bath, being knocked out by fake-Mom and the trauma associated with the betrayal caused him to change in his unconscious state and lash out at the first thing he encountered, which was the village next to him.

3. Fake-Mom said Jacob was "like me now". Now, if you go with the assumption that fake-Mom can go smokey, this could infer that Jacob was a smokey too. SO, does this mean that Jacob was the smokey that killed all the people in the earlier seasons? And if one of the Losties takes over Jacobs place, will they become a smokey and then there will be a Lostie-smokey vs MIB-smokey showdown?

4. I think there is signficance in the fact that fake-Mom was killed prior to her saying anything to MIB. We've seen this theme in the show with people being sent to kill MIB, but I think it is just an assumption that Jacob made and may not be correct.

5. The light, notice how the light is "the warmest light" and "bright" and yellow? The light seen coming from the wheel cavern was the same. But last season with the time travel and all, the light was blue-ish and ice, ice cold (parkas anyone?). Fake-Mom said the light was "life, death, everything". When MIB, who was alive at the time, got pushed into the light, he absorbed the "life" part of the light but being "immortal" (Fake-Mom said she made it they could not die), it caused him to be ripped from his body and become energy/smokey. All that was left was the "death, everything" which is why the light is so cold now.

6. MIB. They said he can't take the shape of his original body anymore. I think I know why. HE took Lockes form since his body was brought to the island, basically, he took a snapshot of the dead lockes form and took it. He did the same thing with his body when he went into the light. He cannot go back to his body since all that is left is bones.

7. Timeline. This is messed up. Real-Mom looked Greek/Roman, the other people looked somewhat Viking/Greek. They had a grasp of metallurgy as they had steel tools and blades. THey also somewhat understood magnetism. So this is somewhere near the end of the bronze age? But Egyptians still need to come to the Island, they build the Temple to Jacob/Smokey and have the smokey shrine underneath with the cravings showing Anubis kneeling to Smokey. The life giving pool appeared to be linked to Jacob as it went "dirty" when he died. Not a history buff, but do these events line up with each other?
1. I think we can assume these things.

2. I don't think she was a 'smokey'. We've already seen that MIB/smokey can't be killed- Sayid tried and failed. We see, though, that Jacob and fake!Mom can both be killed. This has nothing to do with whether they talk first or not- as we see that Jacob said a few words before being killed by Ben in "The Incident".

3. I basically answered this in #2. Jacob and fake!Mom can be killed, and thus, are not 'smokies'.

4. Also answered in #2.

5. I'm not sure how much we can speculate on this point. What we do know is: the wheel started to be built back when MIB was still an actual human, then it was destroyed by fake!Mom. Some time between then and the present, the cavern was rebuilt and put into operation. So who rebuilt it? I hope we find this out.

6. I think this makes sense. Not sure how else it would be explained.

7. Who knows lol. There may be some plot holes here. I hope we get some crazy big answers in the next three eps.

[Morbo]

Ugh, you guys.

Honestly, I expected something way more believable and solid that "the light." It's lame. Stupid even. And it kills me to say that because I've been gung-ho LOST for 6 years. Reading every dirty detail, chasing every tiny clue, pouring over every theory. And now - we get...this.

Really, the show gave us very little information.

It showed us the following:
1) jacob and the original MiB were brothers.
2) the brother and fake mother are the adam and eve from the caves (which anyone with half a mind figured out in the first 10 minutes of the episode).
3) Jacob's brother began the process of the frozen donkey wheel contraption.
4) Jacob (seemingly) released the smoke monster.
5) Some weird, lame, "light" is what the island is either a) protecting, b) embodying

What it DIDN'T tell us is:
1) What IS the smoke monster?
2) When was this? Pre or post statue-building?
3) Where did the fake mother come from - was she alone? The group she killed that MiB ended up with were the other survivors of the shipwreck that brought the pregnant mother there. Are there already "others" there too in addition to them?
4) What is the "light?"
5) And a slew of others I can't think of right now/

Their fake mother said going into the cave is a fate worse than death - as someone mentioned above. So, technically Jacob didn't kill his brother, but he indirectly did by putting him into the light, and subsequently giving whatever the light was holding a vessel to travel out in. We saw that the smoke deposited the body after it took his soul (probably) and memories. Which is why it was able to talkto Jacob about the past, and take on his brother's form. We know it needs a body to scan or take the residual soul from - which is why it was able to appear as Christian (after finding his body out of the coffin somewhere), and then Yemi, whos body has been there for a number of years, and finally Locke. Remember, the whole thing was it needed Locke's body back on the island so it could use it's form and memories to lead our characters.
But we still don't know what it actually is. Is it something like Pandora's Box? Is it all the negative feelings and energy in the world? I don't know.

We can also assume the Temple as built upon the spot where the light cave was. We don't know if the light stayed on after the smoke left, but it seemed to go dim before the smoke came barreling out. If that's where the smoke entity was, remember that's where it was hiding and came from both times we saw it around the temple. It was underneath in the caves. And the pool they brought Sayid to was probably built to collect whatever goodness the light had or something like that.

Anyway, this episode really gave us very very little in terms of solid information. Which is too bad because this should have been an easy way to give a lot of island history and story.

[boyd22]

The black smoke is the MIB, or rather whats left of his Consciousness after being exposed to the light. Remember a few episodes back the MIB mentioned that Jacob stole his body. The light is likely the electro-magnetic properties beneath the island. This light and Desmond will likely come into play in the series finale. Desmond was able to withstand direct exposure to the electro-magnetic force beneath the swan site without turning into black smoke. Which is probably why Widmore brought him back to the island.

[flobo]

6. MIB. They said he can't take the shape of his original body anymore. I think I know why. HE took Lockes form since his body was brought to the island, basically, he took a snapshot of the dead lockes form and took it. He did the same thing with his body when he went into the light. He cannot go back to his body since all that is left is bones.


The only problem is that he took Walt's form a long time ago. And there was no Walt body on the island.

Speaking of Walt, i really hope he'll be back for the final since they launched a lot of character arc with him taht are nowhere near resolution.

[boyd22]

The only problem is that he took Walt's form a long time ago. And there was no Walt body on the island.

Speaking of Walt, i really hope he'll be back for the final since they launched a lot of character arc with him taht are nowhere near resolution.

I believe there are 2 ways the MIB can take the form of someone or something. The first is physical, where he's physically able to take the form of someone who's died. This requires that the dead person's body be on the island. The second is hallucination's. Where he's able to project hallucination's of someone who's been on island into someone elses mind, as he did with Walt. As for Walt returning, the actor who played Walt was seen on set filming scene's for the finale.

[mizzoueng]

The only problem is that he took Walt's form a long time ago. And there was no Walt body on the island.

Speaking of Walt, i really hope he'll be back for the final since they launched a lot of character arc with him taht are nowhere near resolution.

Who says that was MIB? I still think it will be exposed that Jacob can go smokey. The only difference between him and MIB is that MIB was exposed to the light and is now non-corporeal. Jacob could be killed because he still had a physical body, but we've seen his childhood form running around, so he could come back as a equal to MIB.

Explaining my Jacob theory, he has a separate set of rules for going smokey than MIB. He drank the holy wine with the Latin (right?) blessing, so he is the protector and has a few more liberties. MIB was supposed to be the protector, so he was granted some of those abilities by the island but without the holy blessing and wine he had more restrictions (thus Jacobs rules for the "Game").



2. I don't think she was a 'smokey'. We've already seen that MIB/smokey can't be killed- Sayid tried and failed. We see, though, that Jacob and fake!Mom can both be killed. This has nothing to do with whether they talk first or not- as we see that Jacob said a few words before being killed by Ben in "The Incident".

Good memory, so those rules do not truly exist, as far as we know. Maybe Jacob and MIB made up a bunch of the rules, they know little about the true nature of the island as Fake-MOM died before spilling the beans.

Question: If fake-Mom cannot go smokey, exactly how did she manage to destroy the tunnel and kill the armed Others single-handily? There is something there that does not add up.

[Dusk]

I too was a little disappointed with this episode. So much emphasis is placed on identifying the Adam and Eve seen in Season 1 here that that is what the point of this episode seems to boil down to. That being said, who cares? I would have happily watched the end of LOST without knowing and be no worse off for it.

It seems to me that the producers would/could have come up with something far more mythical, fantastical, or other-wordly here, but perhaps the network said no thanks, keep it tame. In which case, why bother?

I felt that the Mother had clearly merged with the light to gain special powers. How else did she so easily fill the well and decimate the human settlement?