Was it really necessary to show James at the end?

[FallenAngelII]

I mean, the show hasn't been blatantly sexist insofar, but I got really ticked off when we were shown James randomly crying at the end of "Space".

Sure, in the past we'd had fan service scenes where either Chloe or James is naked or half-naked but, hey, at least that wasn't sexist. It was just opportunistic (of the writers/showrunners). Then, in this episode, all of a sudden, James is reduced to a 14 yearold girl!

First get the scene where she gushes about the Cute Scientist (henceforth known as the Cutist). Then, when she is told that he can hear her, she goes "Kill me now!" while she and TJ run off and TJ's practically skipping and being all "Girlfriend! That was so embarassing!"-ish. Then the Cutist turns her down, which seemingly leads to her crying in her room (half-naked, I might add).

I mean, what gives?! These are strong military women! Soldiers! James has always been portrayed as the one with the Big Boobies Who Can Kick Most Guys' Asses. Yet one guy turns her down and she is reduced to tears? Really?! Unless I'm going senile, I don't remember Eli crying when Chloe ended up going out with Scott. And he's a softie civilian! Meanwhile, just because James is a woman, she stereotypically breaks down in tears?!

I thought we were past this, PTB.

[reddevil18]

I may be mistaken, but I believe her bosoms were actually increasing in size as time went by. So, maybe it's a way to relieve pressure. Quite literally, or she might pop.

Now, seriously speaking...I didn't see the point of that scene. Meh...

[Orion Antreas]

There was a scene that was taken out in the final cut that showed an interaction, or a lack of, between James and Scott. That scene with James crying was supposed to allude to that. But any rational thinking person could come to a conclusion that she was crying about Scott. I mean, that moment was shown next to Scott and Chloe in bed. I would think that people could pick that up.

EDIT: Maybe I am just looking into it too much, but I believe reading on JM's blog that he said something very similar to what I drew from that scene.

[Naonak]

I figured it was more general loneliness and such, than being specifically because of Caine.

[PG15]

You may want to sit down for this.

According to JM, she was crying because she lost Scott to Chloe, as indicated by the transition from Scott/Chloe to her.

No wait! Stop! Put that knife down! I'm just the messenger!! NOOOOOOO-

[Orion Antreas]

You may want to sit down for this.

According to JM, she was crying because she lost Scott to Chloe, as indicated by the transition from Scott/Chloe to her.

No wait! Stop! Put that knife down! I'm just the messEnger!! NOOOOOOO-

Yup, that's it. I picked up on this before I read that on JM's blog.

[FallenAngelII]

There was a scene that was taken out in the final cut that showed an interaction, or a lack of, between James and Scott. That scene with James crying was supposed to allude to that. But any rational thinking person could come to a conclusion that she was crying about Scott. I mean, that moment was shown next to Scott and Chloe in bed. I would think that people could pick that up.

EDIT: Maybe I am just looking into it too much, but I believe reading on JM's blog that he said something very similar to what I drew from that scene.
She's known about them for some time now. Why cry now over it? If that's true, then that makes it a little less sexist, but still sexist.


I figured it was more general loneliness and such, than being specifically because of Caine.
Even if that were true, why have her cry at all? She could just look sad or something. Why have James of all women, the physically strongest of all women on-board, break down in tears because of "Loneliness" or "Lack of Scott"?

[Coronach]

Yup, that's it. I picked up on this before I read that on JM's blog.

Even better, it was JM's episode. Not to mention, I think we know James well enough to know that she wouldn't be reduced to crying over a guy she barely knows, especially considering the guy (Dr. Caine) never said he wasn't interested in her.

[majorsal]

There was a scene that was taken out in the final cut that showed an interaction, or a lack of, between James and Scott. That scene with James crying was supposed to allude to that. But any rational thinking person could come to a conclusion that she was crying about Scott. I mean, that moment was shown next to Scott and Chloe in bed. I would think that people could pick that up.

EDIT: Maybe I am just looking into it too much, but I believe reading on JM's blog that he said something very similar to what I drew from that scene.

i read on joe's blog of the explanation of why james was crying, and i just :rolleyes:

i love ship :D, but the boat on me wanting a scott/james ship passed *b/c* scott dropped a great *woman* in favor of chloe of 90210. if he has such rotten taste, james is better off without him. REALLY.

so, yeah, i wasn't impressed at all. :p

[Naonak]

Even if that were true, why have her cry at all? She could just look sad or something. Why have James of all women, the physically strongest of all women on-board, break down in tears because of "Loneliness" or "Lack of Scott"?
Depth, or something? Physically badass, but emotionally... not?

[Coronach]

She's known about them for some time now. Why cry now over it? If that's true, then that makes it a little less sexist, but still sexist.

JM said it's not actually about Scott and Chloe together, but how Scott treats her in said scene. Indeed, I wish these kinds of things wouldn't be cut. :(


Even if that were true, why have her cry at all? She could just look sad or something. Why have James of all women, the physically strongest of all women on-board, break down in tears because of "Loneliness" or "Lack of Scott"?

Haha, this reminds me of our "Why show them having sex?" argument we had oh so long ago. Why not just show them kissing, or cuddling instead? And while I'd still say "Why not?", I'd also point out that James has been through a lot. So has the whole crew, sure, but I actually like seeing the softer or more vulnerable sides of people. Everybody cries, after all, and crying implies profound sadness in most cases.

I think she's feeling profoundly upset, and I think it was portrayed quite well as is.

[FallenAngelII]

Depth, or something? Physically badass, but emotionally... not?
It's still sexist in my opinion. It's always a woman crying over something like getting dumped. Even the "physically badass" ones. Never a man. Not even a "wimp geek" (don't get me wrong, I love him) like Eli.

[Orion Antreas]

She's known about them for some time now. Why cry now over it? If that's true, then that makes it a little less sexist, but still sexist.

She's probably known about it, but she's finally come to terms that it is officially over. Maybe she hoped it was only a one-time or short lived thing. But how is it sexist? You telling me this crap doesn't happen in life? Please. Both guys and girls cry about the other months after losing them. It's a part of reality and this show is attempting to portray that. I honestly don't see any sexism.

[reddevil18]

Maybe this whole experience, with Scott and sexy widower will turn her off men for good. Ya hear that, Wray? Make your move, fast!

[FallenAngelII]

Haha, this reminds me of our "Why show them having sex?" argument we had oh so long ago. Why not just show them kissing, or cuddling instead? And while I'd still say "Why not?", I'd also point out that James has been through a lot. So has the whole crew, sure, but I actually like seeing the softer or more vulnerable sides of people. Everybody cries, after all, and crying implies profound sadness in most cases.

I think she's feeling profoundly upset, and I think it was portrayed quite well as is.
Because it's unnecessary? Also, not everybody cries onscreen on Stargate. And it's funny that it's a woman crying over something as relatively trivial as the guy she used to have casual sex with now ignoring her.

Not even Spencer cried when he was so depressed he killed himself, yet James cries because Scott is ignoring her? Say what now?

[Coronach]

It's still sexist in my opinion. It's always a woman crying over something like getting dumped. Even the "physically badass" ones. Never a man. Not even a "wimp geek" (don't get me wrong, I love him) like Eli.

Lt. Scott was bawling in Air Part 3...over a woman he got pregnant. Dr. Rush was crying in Air Part 1 over his dead wife.

Never a man?

[Orion Antreas]

Maybe this whole experience, with Scott and sexy widower will turn her off men for good. Ya hear that, Wray? Make your move, fast!

:lol:

Reddevil, your posts never cease to make me laugh. That made my day.

[PG15]

It's still sexist in my opinion.

Everything is sexist in your opinion. :p


It's always a woman crying over something like getting dumped. Even the "physically badass" ones. Never a man. Not even a "wimp geek" (don't get me wrong, I love him) like Eli.

But Eli was never really dumped, was he?

[Coronach]

Because it's unnecessary?

Eh, to each their own. :P


Also, not everybody cries onscreen on Stargate. And it's funny that it's a woman crying over something as relatively trivial as the guy she used to have casual sex with now ignoring her.

Who says it's trivial? We know nothing of the extent of her feelings for Scott.


Not even Spencer cried when he was so depressed he killed himself, yet James cries because Scott is ignoring her? Say what now?

Again, it's not that he's ignoring her. Go read JM's actual answer regarding the matter. Apparently he treats her like crap in said scene. Of course, we'll never know...at least not until DVD releases with deleted scenes.

[FallenAngelII]

She's probably known about it, but she's finally come to terms that it is officially over. Maybe she hoped it was only a one-time or short lived thing. But how is it sexist? You telling me this crap doesn't happen in life? Please. Both guys and girls cry about the other months after losing them. It's a part of reality and this show is attempting to portray that. I honestly don't see any sexism.
I'm not questioning the fact that someone is crying. I'm questioning the fact that it's a woman crying over something a man would never be shown crying over onscreen on a show like Stargate. Eli was just sad. James broke down in tears. One is a woman, the other a man.


Lt. Scott was bawling in Air Part 3...over a woman he got pregnant. Dr. Rush was crying in Air Part 1 over his dead wife.

Never a man?
I specifically said "over something like getting dumped".

Crying because you're sixteen (not a man, but a boy) and effectively just ruined your life and someone else's is understandable. Crying because you miss your soulmate who died is understandable.

Crying because you used to have casual sex with a guy, then found out he'd moved on and now a week or more later he's pretty much ignoring you (and you've known he's got someone else for a while now)? Not something you usally break down in tears over!

[spinny magee]

The Original poster seems to be on a spree of whining.

[PG15]

Not even Spencer cried when he was so depressed he killed himself, yet James cries because Scott is ignoring her? Say what now?

Uh...what?!

You're seriously saying that crying is worse than suicide?

[reddevil18]

Okay, I'm gonna say it...It was just her time of the month and her emotions got the best of her.

[Coronach]

I specifically said "over something like getting dumped".

Oh my bad, you get to set the goal posts. Wont make that mistake again. :D


Crying because you're sixteen (not a man, but a boy) and effectively just ruined your life and someone else's is understandable. Crying because you miss your soulmate who died is understandable.

Whose life was ruined? She said she wasn't keeping it, so for all Scott knew there was no responsibility for the child on either of their parts.


Crying because you used to have casual sex with a guy, then found out he'd moved on and now a week or more later he's pretty much ignoring you (and you've known he's got someone else for a while now)? Not something you usally break down in tears over!

I love the bolding. I definitely can't understand your point without them, thanks. Again, you're attacking a strawman that nobody ever made. Go read JM's Q&A regarding this.

[FallenAngelII]

Who says it's trivial? We know nothing of the extent of her feelings for Scott.
She hasn't shown any indication of loving Scott deeply. She hooked up with him in a closet. Afterwards he acted like they were only casual acquaintances and then throughout the rest of the show they barely interact. Scott has been openly dating Chloe for weeks. James and he were clearly something casual only and it was only ever about sex.

When she walked in on them, she didn't really react like someone who'd just been heartbroken because the love of her life is with someone else. And in the episode "Space", she is seen making remarks about how attractive the Cutist is, in other words, she's possibly moving on, so apparently it wasn't that big a deal!


Again, it's not that he's ignoring her. Go read JM's actual answer regarding the matter. Apparently he treats her like crap in said scene. Of course, we'll never know...at least not until DVD releases with deleted scenes.
So? Because Scott "treats her like crap", it's normal for her to break down in tears? I thought soldiers were taught to not break down under torture. But if your ex-hookup treats you like crap you break down in tears?

Also, do you honestly believe they'd ever shown a man break down in tears because their ex-hookup treated them like crap on Stargate? Me neither.


Uh...what?!

You're seriously saying that crying is worse than suicide?
No...

It was argued that she was crying because she was really sad or only or whatever and that it's normal for people to cry. So it's normal to cry because Scott treated her like crap, but someone so depressed they'd take their own life doesn't cry right before shooting himself?



Oh my bad, you get to set the goal posts. Wont make that mistake again.
I wrote something. You distorted it in order to strawman my point.



Whose life was ruined? She said she wasn't keeping it, so for all Scott knew there was no responsibility for the child on either of their parts.
Did you just randomly forget the rest of that episode? He'd just disappointed his priest/adoptive father, made the girl disappoint her parents, done something that would lead to him no longer being able to (be it out of guilt or out of pressure from others) pursue the path of priest and it's still a huge thing even if she is getting rid of it.



I love the bolding. I definitely can't understand your point without them, thanks. Again, you're attacking a strawman that nobody ever made. Go read JM's Q&A regarding this.
I didn't have all the info until then. And I didn't feel like sifting through JM's TL;DR blogposts to find it. Now I do. It's still a ridiculous reason to break down in tears like that over.

Funny, accusing me of strawmanning when you just strawmanned me and then commented on how "I create goal posts".

[Coronach]

She hasn't shown any indication of loving Scott deeply. She hooked up with him in a closet. Afterwards he acted like they were only casual acquaintances and then throughout the rest of the show they barely interact. Scott has been openly dating Chloe for weeks. James and he were clearly something casual only and it was only ever about sex.

See below.


When she walked in on them, she didn't really react like someone who'd just been heartbroken because the love of her life is with someone else. And in the episode "Space", she is seen making remarks about how attractive the Cutist is, in other words, she's possibly moving on, so apparently it wasn't that big a deal!

You said it yourself, she's a tough woman. Would you expect her to break down in front of Chloe and Scott after catching them together? I wouldn't...but in the privacy of her own room? Sure.

And yes, maybe she is trying to move on. Understandable, given her situation. It doesn't mean these sorts of things still wont affect her.


So? Because Scott "treats her like crap", it's normal for her to break down in tears? I thought soldiers were taught to not break down under torture. But if your ex-hookup treats you like crap you break down in tears?

No, but you're trivializing it as if that's the only problem she has in her life. Maybe it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of thing? As I've said, she's been through a lot.


Also, do you honestly believe they'd ever shown a man break down in tears because their ex-hookup treated them like crap on Stargate? Me neither.

No, but I don't agree that this is somehow the only thing she has to cry about. I do think they'd show a man crying in an identical situation to hers, though.


Did you just randomly forget the rest of that episode? He'd just disappointed his priest/adoptive father

Ah, indeed. You're most certainly right about this, and I'm not joking. Good point, that definitely did play into the emotions he was feeling.


I didn't have all the info until then. And I didn't feel like sifting through JM's TL;DR blogposts to find it. Now I do. It's still a ridiculous reason to break down in tears like that over.

I guess we disagree in that you seem to think she's only crying over this, whereas I think this was an instance of compounding stresses/sadnesses that made her cry. I think it says something, though, that she did it alone in her room rather than in front of other people.

[EDIT]: Wanted to add, FAII, that I was mistaken in one aspect of our conversation. I was at work when I was last typing, and was mildly distracted by residents so I didn't notice that I did, indeed, strawman you. It was unintentional, I assure you, but it was a strawman nevertheless. And while I still think you're strawmanning (or at least trivializing) the reason for James' crying, I just wanted to apologize for that. I didn't mean to distort the specifics of what you said.

[reddevil18]

So...can we settle on a bra-burning and accept that the writing staff sucks at female characters and move on?

[Avenger]

Even if that were true, why have her cry at all? She could just look sad or something. Why have James of all women, the physically strongest of all women on-board, break down in tears because of "Loneliness" or "Lack of Scott"?

Because some people cry in that kind of situation. It shows she's human and not some female warrior robot with no emotions. People are allowed to be emotional.

[PG15]

She hasn't shown any indication of loving Scott deeply. She hooked up with him in a closet. Afterwards he acted like they were only casual acquaintances and then throughout the rest of the show they barely interact. Scott has been openly dating Chloe for weeks. James and he were clearly something casual only and it was only ever about sex.

When she walked in on them, she didn't really react like someone who'd just been heartbroken because the love of her life is with someone else. And in the episode "Space", she is seen making remarks about how attractive the Cutist is, in other words, she's possibly moving on, so apparently it wasn't that big a deal!

I disagree. James was clearly disturbed when she walked in on Scott and Chloe doing it in "Water". That said, I agree they weren't each others' soulmates or whatever, but there was obviously a connection on the part of James. Then there was that scene when she told Chloe about Scott being trapped in the crevasse; IMHO, there was a clear tension and unease between them.

The only reason she wasn't more clearly angry/sad was because, like you said, she was a strong, capable soldier; she wouldn't express herself like that in public.

You've never said that someone else was attractive while you were in a relationship? Really?



So? Because Scott "treats her like crap", it's normal for her to break down in tears? I thought soldiers were taught to not break down under torture. But if your ex-hookup treats you like crap you break down in tears?

Apples and oranges.

There is (obviously) a clear difference between remaining strong in the face of the enemy and succumbing to personal struggles while in the privacy of her own room. Are you saying that a military person never breaksdown?


No...

It was argued that she was crying because she was really sad or only or whatever and that it's normal for people to cry. So it's normal to cry because Scott treated her like crap, but someone so depressed they'd take their own life doesn't cry right before shooting himself?

I think Spencer was past the point of crying about it by that...point.

[The_Asgard_live]

yet James cries because Scott is ignoring her? Say what now?
I share this sentiment. I thought it was silly she would be crying about Caine? This upped the ante, this is sillier. Scott was having sex with Chloe a day? 2 days? after he last had sex with James. Pretty sure she knew. She definitely seen them making out. Its been week(s)? month(s)? since then? Sex didn't do it, the kissing didn't do it, but impoliteness left on the cutting room floor did?

But, then again, this is at least 2 times removed from my understanding. I find it hard enough to understand women, let alone women of the Destiny who were written and conceived of by men who apparently understand women less than I do. Are there any left on the ship that haven't cried yet?


Maybe this whole experience, with Scott and sexy widower will turn her off men for good. Ya hear that, Wray? Make your move, fast!

Now this I understand. I will forgive the writers 3 teen-like drama cringe moments per episode if this happens.

[GateroomGuard]

I'd say that it wasn't necessary to show her crying but I'm glad they did. One thing that I like about SGU is that we see what happens to characters at the end of the day.

I mean lets just look at James current life on Destiny.
1. Boyfriend dumps you without a word.
2. Your commanders tech boy spies on you with a kino along with a soldier of a lower rank and just gets a 'boys will be boys' speach as a reprimand.
3. Boyfriend is also your superior, your boyfriend's new girlfriend apparently is clueless to your past history and doesn't even bother to make sure your okay with it
4. You like another guy but he doesn't like you back and may in fact be hitting on your friend, not to mention you also embarass yourself in front of all your supeirors, your old boyfriend, and the guy you like.
5. You try to get everyone out of harms way in an alien attack only to get people killed or injured specifically because you ordered them to go down a hallway.
6. You then risk your life to go save all of them and you don't even get a thank you.
8. And (going by the scene that was cut according JM's blog) you ask your old boyfriend if he's okay after his new girlfriend gets captured by aliens and he uses his rank to tell you to buzz off.
9. You then go back to your room to sleep only to realize that your once again all alone, billions of miles away from your family and your old boyfriend doesn't even care.

Yeah... I'd be bawling my eyes out a lot worse. And it wouldn't be in the privacy of my own room.

I mean do any of us really think that with all the stuff people on SG-1 and SGA went through that when they went to bed at night they weren't doing the same?

[Orion Antreas]

I'd say that it wasn't necessary to show her crying but I'm glad they did. One thing that I like about SGU is that we see what happens to characters at the end of the day.

I mean lets just look at James current life on Destiny.
1. Boyfriend dumps you without a word.
2. Your commanders tech boy spies on you with a kino along with a soldier of a lower rank and just gets a 'boys will be boys' speach as a reprimand.
3. Boyfriend is also your superior, your boyfriend's new girlfriend apparently is clueless to your past history and doesn't even bother to make sure your okay with it
4. You like another guy but he doesn't like you back and may in fact be hitting on your friend, not to mention you also embarass yourself in front of all your supeirors, your old boyfriend, and the guy you like.
5. You try to get everyone out of harms way in an alien attack only to get people killed or injured specifically because you ordered them to go down a hallway.
6. You then risk your life to go save all of them and you don't even get a thank you.
8. And (going by the scene that was cut according JM's blog) you ask your old boyfriend if he's okay after his new girlfriend gets captured by aliens and he uses his rank to tell you to buzz off.
9. You then go back to your room to sleep only to realize that your once again all alone, billions of miles away from your family and your old boyfriend doesn't even care.

Yeah... I'd be bawling my eyes out a lot worse. And it wouldn't be in the privacy of my own room.

I mean do any of us really think that with all the stuff people on SG-1 and SGA went through that when they went to bed at night they weren't doing the same?

All excellent points. Nice job! Green for you. :D

[jsonitsac]

On top of that, the one guy whom she seems interested in, other than Scott, isn't looking and TJ may be trying to get it on with TJ.

[reddevil18]

I mean do any of us really think that with all the stuff people on SG-1 and SGA went through that when they went to bed at night they weren't doing the same?No, because:
1. At least they were in their own beds.
b. They had nice, quality booze.
III. SG1 and Atlantis required SG team members to be full-fledged Justice League members before being able to go off-world. All the screw-ups and weaklings ended up on Icarus Base.

[Coronach]

No, because:
1. At least they were in their own beds.
b. They had nice, quality booze.
III. SG1 and Atlantis required SG team members to be full-fledged Justice League members before being able to go off-world. All the screw-ups and weaklings ended up on Icarus Base.

Oh snap, that explains it! It's all becoming clear, I saw the sign, etc...

[reddevil18]

On top of that, the one guy whom she seems interested in, other than Scott, isn't looking and TJ may be trying to get it on with TJ.
Don't worry 'bout that. It's explained in another thread around here how he's gay.

[majorsal]

i don't mind james, or anyone crying over another person, i just think james feeling anything for scott anymore is :rolleyes: . get over the loser and move on! :p

[FallenAngelII]

S
You said it yourself, she's a tough woman. Would you expect her to break down in front of Chloe and Scott after catching them together? I wouldn't...but in the privacy of her own room? Sure.
"Water" was weeks ago. Weeks. Why break down now?


SNo, but you're trivializing it as if that's the only problem she has in her life. Maybe it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of thing? As I've said, she's been through a lot.
I'm not gonna make a bunch of assumptions just because it suits my side of the argument. All we know is that Scott treated her like manure.



1. Boyfriend dumps you without a word.
Not a boyfriend. This was made clear in episode 1. Casual sex friend.


2. Your commanders tech boy spies on you with a kino along with a soldier of a lower rank and just gets a 'boys will be boys' speach as a reprimand.
Really? You think that would make someone cry?


3. Boyfriend is also your superior, your boyfriend's new girlfriend apparently is clueless to your past history and doesn't even bother to make sure your okay with it
All of which happened weeks ago.


4. You like another guy but he doesn't like you back and may in fact be hitting on your friend, not to mention you also embarass yourself in front of all your supeirors, your old boyfriend, and the guy you like.
Again, this makes most normally wired people cry?


5. You try to get everyone out of harms way in an alien attack only to get people killed or injured specifically because you ordered them to go down a hallway.
This one is valid.


6. You then risk your life to go save all of them and you don't even get a thank you.
... grasping ...


8. And (going by the scene that was cut according JM's blog) you ask your old boyfriend if he's okay after his new girlfriend gets captured by aliens and he uses his rank to tell you to buzz off.
Yes. Clearly this would make someone cry!


Yeah... I'd be bawling my eyes out a lot worse. And it wouldn't be in the privacy of my own room.
Are you a tough soldier who's had years of training to make you be able to endure torture? "They didn't thank me for saving their lives!"?

[reddevil18]

i don't mind james, or anyone crying over another person, i just think james feeling anything for scott anymore is :rolleyes: . get over the loser and move on! :pAgreed. I can't believe just how quickly I grew to dislike the man. Though, he has a pretty face...

BTW, he has slightly longer hair now(make sense), and it makes him look younger, right? It's not just me, right? Especially from certain angles. Like, when they were in the stone room...

[The_Asgard_live]

I'd say that it wasn't necessary to show her crying but I'm glad they did. One thing that I like about SGU is that we see what happens to characters at the end of the day.

I mean lets just look at James current life on Destiny.
1. Boyfriend dumps you without a word.
2. Your commanders tech boy spies on you with a kino along with a soldier of a lower rank and just gets a 'boys will be boys' speach as a reprimand.
3. Boyfriend is also your superior, your boyfriend's new girlfriend apparently is clueless to your past history and doesn't even bother to make sure your okay with it
4. You like another guy but he doesn't like you back and may in fact be hitting on your friend, not to mention you also embarass yourself in front of all your supeirors, your old boyfriend, and the guy you like.
5. You try to get everyone out of harms way in an alien attack only to get people killed or injured specifically because you ordered them to go down a hallway.
6. You then risk your life to go save all of them and you don't even get a thank you.
8. And (going by the scene that was cut according JM's blog) you ask your old boyfriend if he's okay after his new girlfriend gets captured by aliens and he uses his rank to tell you to buzz off.
9. You then go back to your room to sleep only to realize that your once again all alone, billions of miles away from your family and your old boyfriend doesn't even care.

Yeah... I'd be bawling my eyes out a lot worse. And it wouldn't be in the privacy of my own room.

I mean do any of us really think that with all the stuff people on SG-1 and SGA went through that when they went to bed at night they weren't doing the same?

I understand why you like it. Here is why I can't. She is a member of elite military trained for combat situations. To take and receive fire not humans but aliens that burrow into your head, suck the life out of you with their palm, or god knows what else. She was carrying out a seemingly casual sexual relationship against regulations, with a superior that does her when on duty with all the romance a broom closet can muster. I also don't buy the fact that James ever has to go back to her room alone.

Why can't they do something different, why must she cry? Why couldn't they have had him be rude to her, and have her knock him on his ass and dare him to report it. Go ahead, report me candy ass. I would have stood up and applauded my tv.

But instead she is weepy because Joanie loves Chachi

[GateroomGuard]

No, because:
1. At least they were in their own beds.
b. They had nice, quality booze.
III. SG1 and Atlantis required SG team members to be full-fledged Justice League members before being able to go off-world. All the screw-ups and weaklings ended up on Icarus Base.

1. What about season 1 Atlantis? They were in pretty much the same boat.
b. For Atlantis maybe, SG-1 had blue jello to drown their sorrows in.
III. Of course I forgot that SG1 and Atlantis are made up of the toughest and most emotionally stable people in the universe. They make vulcans look emotional. I mean look at Jack when his son died... oh wait. Well look at Daniel when he lost Sha're... oh wait. Um, look at Sam she was stuck in that nebula on Prometheus... no wait. What about when her dad died and she dumped her fiance... nope that won't work either. :P

SG-1 and Atlantis were lucky they all had credits that would roll right before they went home, SGU has to deal with the montage that only stops after it finds someone having an emotional breakdown. ;)

[FallenAngelII]

I understand why you like it. Here is why I can't. She is a member of elite military trained for combat situations. To take and receive fire not humans but aliens that burrow into your head, suck the life out of you with their palm, or god knows what else. She was carrying out a seemingly casual sexual relationship against regulations, with a superior that does her when on duty with all the romance a broom closet can muster. I also don't buy the fact that James ever has to go back to her room alone.

Why can't they do something different, why must she cry? Why couldn't they have had him be rude to her, and have her knock him on his ass and dare him to report it. Go ahead, report me candy ass. I would have stood up and applauded my tv.

But instead she is weepy because Joanie loves Chachi
Exactly what I've been saying all along.

Heck, she could've had an adverse reaction. Like possibly sitting in her room brooding. Or throwing things. Or just showing signs of sadness. But crying because "Scott was mean to me" (and all of those things people have listed, none of which would ever make me cry. I'm a guy, but I'm gay and I'm told we're all sissies, just like women.)?!

[Pharaoh Atem]

yes, she's lonely and who knows maybe she's next on the suicide train

[reddevil18]

1. What about season 1 Atlantis? They were in pretty much the same boat.
b. For Atlantis maybe, SG-1 had blue jello to drown their sorrows in.
III. Of course I forgot that SG1 and Atlantis are made up of the toughest and most emotionally stable people in the universe. They make vulcans look emotional. I mean look at Jack when his son died... oh wait. Well look at Daniel when he lost Sha're... oh wait. Um, look at Sam she was stuck in that nebula on Prometheus... no wait. What about when her dad died and she dumped her fiance... nope that won't work either. :P

SG-1 and Atlantis were lucky they all had credits that would roll right before they went home, SGU has to deal with the montage that only stops after it finds someone having an emotional breakdown. ;)
1. Johnny Cash poster and a view to die for. Screw home, I'd fall asleep to the sound of the ocean any time.
b. Jack drank more beer than Homer Simpson. It's the main ingredient in his food, for cryin' out loud. Plus, you KNOW Daniel's a pothead. Just look at him.
III. And they were all okay within 5 minutes after that...They probably just have better shrinks. I mean, who'd take TJ seriously as a shrink anyway? She's BLONDE, for God's sake!

[reddevil18]

Or just showing signs of sadness. This is why I'm campaigning for the implementation of thought bubbles in TV shows. That or the Sims icon thingy that floats above their heads and tells you their mood.

[GateroomGuard]

1. Johnny Cash poster and a view to die for. Screw home, I'd fall asleep to the sound of the ocean any time.
b. Jack drank more beer than Homer Simpson. It's the main ingredient in his food, for cryin' out loud. Plus, you KNOW Daniel's a pothead. Just look at him.
III. And they were all okay within 5 minutes after that...They probably just have better shrinks. I mean, who'd take TJ seriously as a shrink anyway? She's BLONDE, for God's sake!

I concede my point! SG-1 and Atlantis are made up of only the most emotionally deadend people while SGU is made up of everyone who couldn't make it through the 'Goaul'd kicking pupies' training video. ;)

(On everyone else's comments about my comment, I can't get my multi-quote thingy to work right, sorry.)

I never meant to imply in my list that each one event would make her cry, but all the events together would. And the excuse that simply because your part of the SGC that you are some super soldier who can turn off their emotions for their entire lives is ludicrous. I also find crying to be a lot better and healthier way of dealing with sadness that assaulting someone and destroying things. I respect James a lot more because she cried in the privacy of her own room rather than simply going on a rampage and punching Scott's lights out. I'd have to say that that at least shows she can control her emotions.

[Coronach]

"Water" was weeks ago. Weeks. Why break down now?

Really? Are you seriously not understanding what my point is that I'm trying to make? Apparently not, given your responses to GateroomGuard. You're essentially looking at each discrete event and deciding whether or not each one warrants crying by itself. And this is why I say you're strawmanning.

Of course these isolated incidents (by themselves) wouldn't break Lt. James. Unfortunately, that's not what I or anyone else here is saying. If you can't understand why compounding stresses over the course of weeks (yes, weeks) couldn't cause someone to break, then I'm done here.

Maybe you hold military members in some strange echelon in which absolutely nothing will break their spirits, I don't know. However, my final words will be this:

She's a strong woman, and has dealt with a lot over the past few weeks. Yes, weeks. The fact that she started crying in the privacy of her own room is completely consistent with her characterization to this point. As I said before, I think it's disingenuous to suggest she's crying solely because Scott treated her like crap in the hallway. But (as I've also said before), given all that she's been through these past few weeks, the idea that this is the "straw that broke the camel's back" is entirely understandable.


I'm not gonna make a bunch of assumptions just because it suits my side of the argument. All we know is that Scott treated her like manure.

They are not assumptions. In fact, had you actually understood what GateroomGuard was saying in his post (and what I'm still trying to get across), you'd understand that we know quite a lot about what she's been through.

[Avenger]

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

Heck, she could've had an adverse reaction. Like possibly sitting in her room brooding. Or throwing things. Or just showing signs of sadness. But crying because "Scott was mean to me" (and all of those things people have listed, none of which would ever make me cry. I'm a guy, but I'm gay and I'm told we're all sissies, just like women.)?!

First, you clearly have never been in such a stressful situation in your life.

Second, just because you claim you wouldn't react in the same manner does nothing to solidify your point about a character who is not you. You can't use your own personal experiences on how you would react and transplant your actions onto a different person or assume that he or she would react to stress in the same way you would. You have to look at the character's experiences and reactions on the show. GateroomGuard listed numerous things that have caused various levels of stress for James (in addition to be trapped on a spaceship billions of light years from home), all things that have happened on the show. Given James' reaction at the end of the show, it is perfectly reasonable to think that they all piled on and eventually became too much. Not everyone can take the stress of a single situation and deal with it in a short period of time.

[The_Asgard_live]

I never meant to imply in my list that each one event would make her cry, but all the events together would.

Of course its plausible, but doesn't Chloe already fill that role on the show? Why do we need another one?


And the excuse that simply because your part of the SGC that you are some super soldier who can turn off their emotions for their entire lives is ludicrous.

I've seen this argument before and I just don't know what to make of it. What is the point of training to become an elite fighting machine and being vetted if not for the very purpose of being able to keep your "stuff" together. If any G'auld can break you down by showing you a photoshopped picture of your boyfriend having sex with another woman, you shouldn't be in the SGC.


I also find crying to be a lot better and healthier way of dealing with sadness that assaulting someone and destroying things. I respect James a lot more because she cried in the privacy of her own room rather than simply going on a rampage and punching Scott's lights out. I'd have to say that that at least shows she can control her emotions.
I would find it to be healthier too. However, the mental health of these characters does not interest me. I want to be entertained. Watching James cry alone in her room to a music montage makes me bored to my own tears.

Watching her kick the crap out of Scott for being hmmm a "richard" works on multiple levels for me.

[pipi]

She's known about them for some time now. Why cry now over it? If that's true, then that makes it a little less sexist, but still sexist.


Even if that were true, why have her cry at all? She could just look sad or something. Why have James of all women, the physically strongest of all women on-board, break down in tears because of "Loneliness" or "Lack of Scott"?
This is the reality genre of the show. There is no such thing as a non-sexist storyline and other politically sensitive topics that make shows a bit superficial and goodie goodie like SG-1. James crying after being dumped only makes the show more realistic of human emotions. Would you have prefered she blow her brains out like that other 'male' soldier did when he was depressed.

[Coronach]

Of course its plausible, but doesn't Chloe already fill that role on the show? Why do we need another one?

Lol.


I've seen this argument before and I just don't know what to make of it. What is the point of training to become an elite fighting machine and being vetted if not for the very purpose of being able to keep your "stuff" together. If any G'auld can break you down by showing you a photoshopped picture of your boyfriend having sex with another woman, you shouldn't be in the SGC.

Apples and oranges. For what purpose does she need to utilize her training in the privacy of her own room?

[GateroomGuard]

Of course its plausible, but doesn't Chloe already fill that role on the show? Why do we need another one?

I've seen this argument before and I just don't know what to make of it. What is the point of training to become an elite fighting machine and being vetted if not for the very purpose of being able to keep your "stuff" together. If any G'auld can break you down by showing you a photoshopped picture of your boyfriend having sex with another woman, you shouldn't be in the SGC.

I would find it to be healthier too. However, the mental health of these characters does not interest me. I want to be entertained. Watching James cry alone in her room to a music montage makes me bored to my own tears.

Watching her kick the crap out of Scott for being hmmm a "richard" works on multiple levels for me.

On your first point with all of Chloe's near death expierences wouldn't it be wise to have a back up Chloe?

On your second. I'm pretty sure she could stand up under alien torture and keep her emotions in check. She didn't let her emotions get the better of her while on duty, it was in the confines of her own private room. While on duty she keeps her emotions in check but once she can finally let it out once her dutys over she lets it out. If the normal SGC personel never cried ever, then I would order a psych eval done of them. Even the toughest soldiers are known to weep once their off duty, and some while their on duty.

On your third point. I like SGU because the characters are smart enough to take care of themselves rather than simply give us spectacle.

[s09119]

I mean, the show hasn't been blatantly sexist insofar, but I got really ticked off when we were shown James randomly crying at the end of "Space".

Sure, in the past we'd had fan service scenes where either Chloe or James is naked or half-naked but, hey, at least that wasn't sexist. It was just opportunistic (of the writers/showrunners). Then, in this episode, all of a sudden, James is reduced to a 14 yearold girl!

First get the scene where she gushes about the Cute Scientist (henceforth known as the Cutist). Then, when she is told that he can hear her, she goes "Kill me now!" while she and TJ run off and TJ's practically skipping and being all "Girlfriend! That was so embarassing!"-ish. Then the Cutist turns her down, which seemingly leads to her crying in her room (half-naked, I might add).

I mean, what gives?! These are strong military women! Soldiers! James has always been portrayed as the one with the Big Boobies Who Can Kick Most Guys' Asses. Yet one guy turns her down and she is reduced to tears? Really?! Unless I'm going senile, I don't remember Eli crying when Chloe ended up going out with Scott. And he's a softie civilian! Meanwhile, just because James is a woman, she stereotypically breaks down in tears?!

I thought we were past this, PTB.

As I said in another thread: she's lonely. She thought she'd at least have Scott when they got stuck here, but now she realizes that she cared abot him way more than he cared about her, and no one else seems to want to risk a relationship out in the middle of nowhere. Being stuck so far from home, getting kicked to the curb, and then getting rejected... yeah, guy or girl, I'd be crying, too.

[The_Asgard_live]

On your third point. I like SGU because the characters are smart enough to take care of themselves rather than simply give us spectacle.
Hrmm.. Greer threatened to shoot rush in the face after knocking him on his ass. He also knocked out the suicidal guy. Young used the stones to assault Telford and tried to murder Rush. Chloe is a walking spectacle. I don't think you and I are watching the same show.

James standing up for herself and giving Scott his comeuppance doesn't rise to anywhere near the spectacle of any of those mental health issues.

Young needs to institute a no crying policy. Water is hard to come by, the women on Destiny need to stop dehydrating themselves.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

[GateroomGuard]

Hrmm.. Greer threatened to shoot rush in the face after knocking him on his ass. He also knocked out the suicidal guy. Young used the stones to assault Telford and tried to murder Rush. Chloe is a walking spectacle. I don't think you and I are watching the same show.

James standing up for herself and giving Scott his comeuppance doesn't rise to anywhere near the spectacle of any of those mental health issues.

Young needs to institute a no crying policy. Water is hard to come by, the women on Destiny need to stop dehydrating themselves.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

Uhh... yeah forgot about those... Okay I like SGU because 'Secondary' characters are smart enought to take care of themselves rather than give us spectacle. :)

[Coronach]

Uhh... yeah forgot about those... Okay I like SGU because 'Secondary' characters are smart enought to take care of themselves rather than give us spectacle. :)

But....Spencer committed suicide after weeks of being angry and unstable. :S

Lol...I had to do it :P

[PG15]

How about, the characters showcase a variety of ways to releasing stress, just like normal people. ;)

[Coronach]

How about, the characters showcase a variety of ways to releasing stress, just like normal people. ;)

That's where I'm leaving it. ;)

[GateroomGuard]

But....Spencer committed suicide after weeks of being angry and unstable. :S

Lol...I had to do it :P

.............................Okay I like SGU because currently living secondary characters are smart enough to take care of themselves rather than give us spectacle.

That good enough! :)

[reddevil18]

How about, the characters showcase a variety of ways to releasing stress, just like normal people. ;)You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

[s09119]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

Oh gods, bad images...

[SupremeLegate]

Kevin writes: “Who is James crying for in bed?”

Answer: The fact that this scene of James, alone in bed, came on the heels of the scene of Scott and Chloe in bed together was intended to suggest a connection. James is crying because she’s lost Scott to Chloe. A scene that didn’t make the cut (actually the final draft) that could have shed a little more light on this took place after Chloe’s capture. Scott is marching down the hall from the shuttle when James approaches and asks if he’s alright. He curtly dismisses her, more interested in pressing Young about Chloe. It was a quick scene we had to lose due to the domino effect of a changed storyline (you’ll find out about that in the coming episodes).


I didn't make that connection, guess I was annoyied at seeing Chloe with Scott. Note to self: Stop connecting with Eli so much.

And I can see her breaking down when she is alone in her own quarters. While, as far as I know, we don't know the extent of her relationship with Scott, we do know how his being with Chloe affected her. We know this by how she reacts in "Water,' when she catches Scott and Chloe and then how unconfortable she is when she talks to Chloe.

I would think first she would be hurt, then mad, followed by depressed, ending with a break down after that scene that was deleted.

[GateroomGuard]

I didn't make that connection, guess I was annoyied at seeing Chloe with Scott. Note to self: Stop connecting with Eli so much.

And I can see her breaking down when she is alone in her own quarters. While, as far as I know, we don't know the extent of her relationship with Scott, we do know how his being with Chloe affected her. We know this by how she reacts in "Water,' when she catches Scott and Chloe and then how unconfortable she is when she talks to Chloe.

I would think first she would be hurt, then mad, followed by depressed, ending with a break down after that scene that was deleted.

One thing I noticed though was when they said Chloe was captured by the Aliens James seemed to be the most vocal in concern.

[Commander Zelix]

Even better, it was JM's episode. Not to mention, I think we know James well enough to know that she wouldn't be reduced to crying over a guy she barely knows, especially considering the guy (Dr. Caine) never said he wasn't interested in her.
Its not like that. Caine was like the last drop.

As I said in the general forum. I thought James was way over Scott. IMO, she cried because of her loneliness, the Caine "incident" being the last drop making her face this loneliness. I liked that scene, it felt real. And I usually don't like that type of scene.

[Pharaoh Atem]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

i usually don't like your posts but I lol'd :D

[Lord Hurin]

Ugh, cries of sexism and racism are rampant in society today.

Showing a woman crying over a relationship is sexist? Why? Does it never happen in real life? Men and women BOTH cry over such trivial things. Sure, James is military but she's still human.

I don't like Wray as a character. Her only purpose seems to be to become a pain in the ass. Does this make me sexist or homophobic? I don't think so. If it were a straight man being power-hungry but then utterly useless when command decisions need to be made then I wouldn't like them either. Rush is power-hungry and maybe a little nuts, but I think he'd at least be able to make good decisions and run things somewhat smoothly on the ship.

These characters aren't perfect. TJ isn't a perfect doctor; she couldn't save Spencer from a bullet wound to the head. Scott isn't a perfect soldier; he couldn't take down all those fighters AND the mothership. Yadda yadda yadda. I find it more interesting this way, personally.

[Commander Zelix]

There's a bit of of what I call the "wonder woman syndrome" actually on TV. Women are shown to be physically strong, intelligent, good sense of humor, without any flaws. But in real life women and men got flaws. And on SGU every character got flaws why should the women be spared?

[wargrafix]

she cried because she's ( i don't know) human?

[Camasi]

I mean, the show hasn't been blatantly sexist insofar, but I got really ticked off when we were shown James randomly crying at the end of "Space".

Sure, in the past we'd had fan service scenes where either Chloe or James is naked or half-naked but, hey, at least that wasn't sexist. It was just opportunistic (of the writers/showrunners). Then, in this episode, all of a sudden, James is reduced to a 14 yearold girl!

First get the scene where she gushes about the Cute Scientist (henceforth known as the Cutist). Then, when she is told that he can hear her, she goes "Kill me now!" while she and TJ run off and TJ's practically skipping and being all "Girlfriend! That was so embarassing!"-ish. Then the Cutist turns her down, which seemingly leads to her crying in her room (half-naked, I might add).

I mean, what gives?! These are strong military women! Soldiers! James has always been portrayed as the one with the Big Boobies Who Can Kick Most Guys' Asses. Yet one guy turns her down and she is reduced to tears? Really?! Unless I'm going senile, I don't remember Eli crying when Chloe ended up going out with Scott. And he's a softie civilian! Meanwhile, just because James is a woman, she stereotypically breaks down in tears?!

I thought we were past this, PTB.

I had to sign up and post just because i saw this. However, long time reader around here. Hello everyone :).

Quick background. I am a grad student in philosophy and i have specifically had to study feminism in it's many different forms. I have experience with identifying these cultural stereotypes as well. I have also been in the Air Force for over 8 years. I had to comment on this.

A few episodes at the end of SGU have shown the characters reflecting in their quarters. Sometimes it is extremely evident what they are thinking about, but a lot of times not. (I imagine this is why we talk about it on forums :) ). I think the purpose of these is to show the human and psychological element about what they are going through. I think it is very short sighted for people to make these quick judgments on what this means or that means based on little information. Your drawing unfair comparisons between characters of typical tv shows to the characters on this tv show. I would almost contest that some of you seem to be conveying the message that you can pick these characters apart and show objective evidence as to why they need to be like this or act like this. Unbelievable.

The people on the ship are seemingly going through an extremely stressful time, which is obviously playing on their psyche. This is a sort of thing that previous Stargate series sort of failed to capture. SGU is obviously moving at a much slower pace to try to capture this human element. The point is i am guessing the writers are not going for cookie cutter characters that are extremely predictable in everything they do (at least not yet). The original poster is calling out sexism just because a tough woman, who happens to be a "soldier" (she is in Air Force Special Forces..so that is an incorrect term), is crying. I would hope that she is crying! She is a human being after all! In fact any psychology book can tell you that this is a common reactor to extreme stress and depression. We have no idea of Lt. James' history in that aspect. This is in no way implying any sort of unfair stereotypical judgment just because she is a woman. In my experience in the military, even the tough special forces types have a bit of a breakdown... it is a good coping mechanism! She is probably experiencing some kind of loneliness mixed with depression and anxiety. When it matters she keeps her cool and acts as a military member should, in fact she did quite a heroic thing shutting down the power when there was electricity arcing all over the place.

I have to disagree with your opinion. I think you are reaching too far and being illogical in your assumption that this is sexist. You are also being very stereotypical in assuming that Eli would break down in tears over personal relationships before James would. Just because we are in the military does not make us invincible to personal relationships! I do not think that any one person has displayed an ultimate superiority when it comes to relationships (i am talking outside of the show). Also, she is in her sleeping quarters and presumably in clothes that she is comfortable in when she sleeps. I do not think she was half-naked either.

Basically what i am trying to communicate here is this:

- This is not sexist.. it is human.
- Try watching the show from a dynamic perspective without cookie cutter stereotypes. Understand the social/psychological dynamic.
- Just because someone is bad ass at their job and can kick guy's asses does not mean that they are invulnerable in their personal life.
- It hurts your argument when you make the sexist call and then support this by assuming other stereotypical positions. Especially the fact that you had to comment on her breasts. What does that have to do with anything?
- Sorry if i sound mean or cocky. I am just trying to help you bolster your own argument in the end and point out a couple inconsistencies. If you can still point out why this is actually sexist and nothing else and do it well then i will give way to your argument.

[Camasi]

It was argued that she was crying because she was really sad or only or whatever and that it's normal for people to cry. So it's normal to cry because Scott treated her like crap, but someone so depressed they'd take their own life doesn't cry right before shooting himself?


There are multiple explanations for this. There are plenty of documented cases where someone commits suicide without any sort of emotional breakdown. Spencer was also off of his medications (the Air Force would not allow him to be in if he was taking those.. he would not even be able to hide it well.. especially if he was at a top secret facility such as Icarus.) When someone is off of their medications they may experience very strange withdrawal symptoms. Usually when someone decides to commit suicide it is something they have thought about for a long time, and they have steeled themselves to carry through with it. It is not a prerequisite to cry before dying. I am just disappointed that the show did not show them noticing these tell-tale signs earlier. Personnel are trained to see this sort of thing and are encouraged to help prevent it before it happens.. but hey they are on a ship stuck on the other side of the universe!

As i said before, you are making an incredible amount of assumptions and applying stereotypes to each situation. It is almost like you become disappointed if the story does not carry out the way you see fit.

[Mike.]

Yawn. If a woman cries it's sexist. If a man cries it's unrealistic/still sexist because the writers need to compensate for the women.... You just can't win.

These are real people, not borg drones. So what if they let out a tear every now and then...

[asdf1239]

for every minute of crying, the character development goes up another notch

[pipi]

You just KNOW what Eli does in the kino room at night. To relieve stress, of course...*cough*

He's building his own internet and website so people can logon and watch his homemade Kino videos at $5.95/month. Or maybe he's smuggled a private collection of his own videos before leaving Earth and is using the Kinos as a video player :)

[reddevil18]

i usually don't like your posts but I lol'd :DWell, that makes me feel better, then...:p

[FallenAngelII]

Really? Are you seriously not understanding what my point is that I'm trying to make? Apparently not, given your responses to GateroomGuard. You're essentially looking at each discrete event and deciding whether or not each one warrants crying by itself. And this is why I say you're strawmanning.
No. I was ridiculing the idea that many of those points would be worth crying over ever, either as individual events or as a whole.

Because, really, many of those points are ridiculous. Oh boo-hoo, nobody said "Thank you!" directly to me for doing my job of saving their asses. Really? Really? You'd expect a man to ever cry over anything like that? Even as a part of a whole? How would this ever contribute to someone emotionally breaing down?


Of course these isolated incidents (by themselves) wouldn't break Lt. James. Unfortunately, that's not what I or anyone else here is saying. If you can't understand why compounding stresses over the course of weeks (yes, weeks) couldn't cause someone to break, then I'm done here.
The difference between stress causing someone to break on shows like the Stargates is that men are just shown in the foetal position rocking back at forth. Women turn on the waterworks because... they have vajayjays.


Maybe you hold military members in some strange echelon in which absolutely nothing will break their spirits, I don't know. However, my final words will be this:
No. I'm saying it's unrealistic for James to suddenly break down in tears for relatively minor things when we have seen male characters not break down in tears over much more traumatizing situations.


She's a strong woman, and has dealt with a lot over the past few weeks. Yes, weeks. The fact that she started crying in the privacy of her own room is completely consistent with her characterization to this point.
Wait... what? How in the flying fig is this consistent with anything? It's just something the writers sprung up on us now. We've never seen any indication that she was gonna break down emotionally (and cry) until now.


As I said before, I think it's disingenuous to suggest she's crying solely because Scott treated her like crap in the hallway.
I haven't argued that since you first outlined the scene for me. Stop strawmanning me.


But (as I've also said before), given all that she's been through these past few weeks, the idea that this is the "straw that broke the camel's back" is entirely understandable.
Would you expect a man to break down in tears over the things outlined in the big post of 10+ Things That Would Make Me Cry?


They are not assumptions. In fact, had you actually understood what GateroomGuard was saying in his post (and what I'm still trying to get across), you'd understand that we know quite a lot about what she's been through.
And I don't expect a reasonably stable human being, especially not someone who's trained to withstand pressure, stress and trauma, to break down in tears over things so relatively minor, even if it's a whole bunch of minor things put together.


First, you clearly have never been in such a stressful situation in your life.

Second, just because you claim you wouldn't react in the same manner does nothing to solidify your point about a character who is not you. You can't use your own personal experiences on how you would react and transplant your actions onto a different person or assume that he or she would react to stress in the same way you would. You have to look at the character's experiences and reactions on the show. GateroomGuard listed numerous things that have caused various levels of stress for James (in addition to be trapped on a spaceship billions of light years from home), all things that have happened on the show. Given James' reaction at the end of the show, it is perfectly reasonable to think that they all piled on and eventually became too much. Not everyone can take the stress of a single situation and deal with it in a short period of time.
And again I ask:
1) Why James? She's one of the strongest women on the ship. Why not have someone whose character is more emotional, such as Chloe or Wray break down in tears over stress?
2) Why did she have to cry?! You're arguing that she was crying due to an emotional breakdown due to stress. We've never seen a man cry for such a reason on Stargate. Every time a man cries, it's because of sadness of some kind. Death, loss, disappointing your family, etc. Those are "legit" reasons for a man to cry. But a man would never be shown crying due to "stress" because "No one thanked me", "My ex-hookup was mean to me" and "I almost got some people killed today". They might be shown having a breakdown, yes. But they wouldn't cry over it.

That's my gripe, really. Why did it have to be crying? And why did it have to be a women. Face it, even in 2010, many people think it's perfectly natural for a women to bawl her eyes out at every little thing while men are wimps if they ever cry over anything other than the death of a loved one.

In the age where the gender stereotypes of "Girls cry because they're sad" and "Boys cry when they get hurt" are still prevalent, why must Stargate add to the mix by having yet another women cry over something a man would never be caught dead crying over? You can whine about feminazis all you want. The fact of the matter is that intentional or not, this was yet another scene that really didn't add much to the show as a whole but which undermines women in some way.

Because you could've shown her breaking down without crying. All the crying did was show us that James is a very emotional woman and that when she is sad/stressed/depressed, she cries. Whoopitty-doo.


This is the reality genre of the show. There is no such thing as a non-sexist storyline and other politically sensitive topics that make shows a bit superficial and goodie goodie like SG-1. James crying after being dumped only makes the show more realistic of human emotions. Would you have prefered she blow her brains out like that other 'male' soldier did when he was depressed.
She was dumped weeks ago. I don't buy this whole "It didn't sink in until now" crap.

Also, again, why did she have to cry? Why not just be mad and throw things? Or simply be sad and staring out her window. Or anything but crying. Because it's realistic for a woman to cry over getting dumped, something a man would never do?

Also, Spencer blew his brains out due to (clinical) depression. But, hey, seeing as how he had a penis, even when depressed to the point of committing suicide, he never cried. Because the penis is that powerful!


As I said in another thread: she's lonely. She thought she'd at least have Scott when they got stuck here, but now she realizes that she cared abot him way more than he cared about her, and no one else seems to want to risk a relationship out in the middle of nowhere. Being stuck so far from home, getting kicked to the curb, and then getting rejected... yeah, guy or girl, I'd be crying, too.
Assumptions, assumptions, more assumptions.

Scott was already cold to her right after they'd gotten on the ship. She walked in on him and Chloe weeks ago. She's known it's over for weeks now. Still, that's a BS reason to cry! She's crying because she doesn't have a boyfriend?! For the love of puppies, and you don't think that is sexist?! Would you ever expect a male character on Stargate to cry because they don't have a girlfriend?!

Even Eli, the soft, wimpy little science geek who's probably had limited to no girlfriends in his entire lifetime didn't start bawling when Chloe chose Scott without so much as sparing him a second glance first, yet James, hardened soldier who can kick all of our asses, starts bawling because Scott dumped her and Caine just said he's not interested in pursuing a relationship with her at this time?!

And that would not be sexist how exactly?


How about, the characters showcase a variety of ways to releasing stress, just like normal people. ;)
We have never, nor will we ever (my prediction) see a male character cry due to stress, at least not for any of the reasons being offered up in this thread as to why they'd cry.


Its not like that. Caine was like the last drop.

As I said in the general forum. I thought James was way over Scott. IMO, she cried because of her loneliness, the Caine "incident" being the last drop making her face this loneliness. I liked that scene, it felt real. And I usually don't like that type of scene.
So, she cried because she was dumped by a boyfriend she never had? And again I ask: Would you expect a man to cry over something as relatively trivial as that?


Ugh, cries of sexism and racism are rampant in society today.

Showing a woman crying over a relationship is sexist? Why? Does it never happen in real life? Men and women BOTH cry over such trivial things. Sure, James is military but she's still human.
Weeks after it's over? Strong military men and women trained to be able to handle stress?

Also, the point is that we've seen people cry on Stargate for a variety of reasons. We have never seen a man, military or civilian, big manly man or big softie, cry over a relationship. And the fact of the matter is that many in today's society still have this delusion that only women cry over relationships. And showing yet another woman cry over a relationship in a show where a man wouldn't be caught dead crying over a relationship just contributes to the problem.

Especially on a franchise that hasn't been that good to women to begin with.




People don't seem to get it. I'm not objecting to the fact that it's a woman crying. I'm objecting to the following facts:
1) That's James of all women crying.
2) That she's crying for reasons as trivial as "Scott was mean to me", "Caine didn't want me", "Nobody thanked me for saving their behinds", etc., even as a big whole.
3) That it's a woman crying over "emotional" issues, like stress, relationship and the like on a show where we've never (and probably never will) seen a man cry over issues other than death and loss.

But what do I know. Writers, prove me wrong. Show us a man, preferrably a big strong man like Greer, break down into tears due to relationship troubles or something. Then I'll consider it even and realistic instead of it just being yet another woman being "a woman" (not "human", but "a woman"), crying over stuff "women often cry over" like getting dumped or not having a boyfriend.

[KEK]

If they wanted to show us how she felt, then yes, obviously.

[FallenAngelII]

If they wanted to show us how she felt, then yes, obviously.
You can portray sadness without showing someone bawling their eyes out.

[EllieVee]

No. I'm saying it's unrealistic for James to suddenly break down in tears for relatively minor things when we have seen male characters not break down in tears over much more traumatizing situations.


Wait... what? How in the flying fig is this consistent with anything? It's just something the writers sprung up on us now. We've never seen any indication that she was gonna break down emotionally (and cry) until now.

Bearing in mind I haven't seen the scene in question, I would suggest that a viewing of the extended version of Air would put it into context and further suggest that given that scene, it's been coming for a while.

[MattSilver 3k]

But what do I know. Writers, prove me wrong. Show us a man, preferrably a big strong man like Greer, break down into tears due to relationship troubles or something. Then I'll consider it even and realistic instead of it just being yet another woman being "a woman" (not "human", but "a woman"), crying over stuff "women often cry over" like getting dumped or not having a boyfriend.

Scott cried over his knocking up of Annie Balic back in Air.

In my little opinion, James' little jag is a culmination of events: Back in the Air extended version, her talk with Young was a good precursor to this. Every strong person, woman or man, can have weaker moments. Note that she was crying alone, and we, the audience, saw it. All through the episode, we saw her embarrass herself in front of Caine in a weaker moment, followed by some hero moments with turning off the power and protecting the civvies. She then went off and helped out TJ with the injured. No crying. No weak moments.

The battle ends soon after. She's alone in her quarters, and things are just too much. Why show her weaker moment in this episode, you ask? Because it was here we saw most of her strong moments. Let's see... In Air she was just a soldier gal who we saw fooling around with Scott (And I firmly believe that she instigated it too - it takes two to tango), in Darkness she went all threaten-y on Eli and Riley's juvenile antics, and her Kino thing revealed that she, too, was scared of dying out there. In Light, the look of relief on her face as she found out she could go on the shuttle. In Water she made a bitter comment to Scott, but I doubt she was pissed at either him or Chloe. A few episodes down the track, she does a few hero moves, comes close to being shocked, and then... WHAM. Maybe it just hits her for the first time, and we see it.

Was it necessary to show James at the end? Well, I believe all characters have dimensions, and that a big dimension is how they act in front of people. And we saw her other, not-in-front-of-people dimension during the song montage. So yeah, to me, it was cool and made us aware that she might be up there as a risky character to watch (Along with Spencer, who killed himself and Volker, who may snap in the future).

Then again, I liked the moment because I don't dissect everything and make it about sexism or racism.

[KEK]

You can portray sadness without showing someone bawling their eyes out.

That depends on how upset they are.

[The_Asgard_live]

I had to sign up and post just because i saw this. However, long time reader around here. Hello everyone :).

Hello!

Man, false gods forgive me, can't believe I would willingly choose to defend what I think is a feminist point of view on this... or anything for that matter.


Basically what i am trying to communicate here is this:

- This is not sexist.. it is human.
- Try watching the show from a dynamic perspective without cookie cutter stereotypes. Understand the social/psychological dynamic.
- Just because someone is bad ass at their job and can kick guy's asses does not mean that they are invulnerable in their personal life.
- It hurts your argument when you make the sexist call and then support this by assuming other stereotypical positions. Especially the fact that you had to comment on her breasts. What does that have to do with anything?
- Sorry if i sound mean or cocky. I am just trying to help you bolster your own argument in the end and point out a couple inconsistencies. If you can still point out why this is actually sexist and nothing else and do it well then i will give way to your argument.
Again, this isn't because I'm looking for a show with a message. I hate that. And its not because I want to advance some politically correct agenda. Hate that too. At the end of the day, I want to be entertained, that is all. However, you really can't see the problem?

So imagine you and I are writers for the show, and I tell you I have an idea for a strong character to counter balance the whiney cheerleader we already have. And you say, fine, whats your idea for this strong female.

I say okay, check this. She will be military elite badass. But! Drop dead chesty sexy. We will enhance and make jokes about the sexy by stranding her with clothes that seem to showcase and magically enhance her natural assets. She'll have sex in a broom closets, giggle with gal pals about how cute guys are and she'll cry over a man!

Would you think I've done women a service, or should I be sent to sensitivity training? I don't know that sexism is the right word, but there is something not helpful to women being taken serious here going on.

Again, I feel the need to mention, this whole post goes against my nature, just looking to be entertained... looking for less waterworks. Hell, in a different context I might have found the above scenario funny, but in this show? Ugh. Especially when the writers? tried to claim they didn't intentionally showcase her boobage? Yeah sure, insult my intelligence a little bit more. mmmhmmm.

Like Elvis once said, little less conversation, little more action please. All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me.

[wargrafix]

It proves that whatever they decide to write, someone will always find a cause to complain. so what if she got big tits? Like they don't exist in real life?

If the writers went with a 'sex sells" approach, so what? V and Battlestar galactica (when they weren't shoving god down your throat) did the same thing.

[FallenAngelII]

Scott cried over his knocking up of Annie Balic back in Air.
Yes. This was because he was incredibly sad that he'd wrecked his own life. He was going to become a priest, he had a priest as an adoptive father/mentor, yet he disappointed both the priest and the church by not only having underage sex out of marriage but also conceiving a child out of wedlock, thus forcing her to have an abortion.

This is something major.

"My ex-hookup is mean to me and the guy I flirted with rejected me", etc. are not major things.


In my little opinion, James' little jag is a culmination of events: Back in the Air extended version, her talk with Young was a good precursor to this. Every strong person, woman or man, can have weaker moments.
Yes. And we've never seen a man cry on Stargate for anything but utmost sadness due to loss or something traumatic like wrecking your own life and the life of others. Not having a boyfriend, not that traumatic.


The battle ends soon after. She's alone in her quarters, and things are just too much. Why show her weaker moment in this episode, you ask?
No. I asked why she had to specifically cry. Why her specifically out of all the women on-board. And why show her crying and not simply being sad?


Was it necessary to show James at the end? Well, I believe all characters have dimensions, and that a big dimension is how they act in front of people. And we saw her other, not-in-front-of-people dimension during the song montage. So yeah, to me, it was cool and made us aware that she might be up there as a risky character to watch (Along with Spencer, who killed himself and Volker, who may snap in the future).

Then again, I liked the moment because I don't dissect everything and make it about sexism or racism.
The problem is that the Stargates have a pretty bad track record at portraying women. And in SGU we get James breaking down in tears over relatively minor things that usually don't make you bawl your eyes out... situations no Stargate male would be caught dead crying over.


It proves that whatever they decide to write, someone will always find a cause to complain. so what if she got big tits? Like they don't exist in real life?

If the writers went with a 'sex sells" approach, so what? V and Battlestar galactica (when they weren't shoving god down your throat) did the same thing.
Out of all of the much more important things we're discussing in this thread you choose to focus on her chest?

[Camasi]

Hello!

Man, false gods forgive me, can't believe I would willingly choose to defend what I think is a feminist point of view on this... or anything for that matter.

Again, this isn't because I'm looking for a show with a message. I hate that. And its not because I want to advance some politically correct agenda. Hate that too. At the end of the day, I want to be entertained, that is all. However, you really can't see the problem?

So imagine you and I are writers for the show, and I tell you I have an idea for a strong character to counter balance the whiney cheerleader we already have. And you say, fine, whats your idea for this strong female.

I say okay, check this. She will be military elite badass. But! Drop dead chesty sexy. We will enhance and make jokes about the sexy by stranding her with clothes that seem to showcase and magically enhance her natural assets. She'll have sex in a broom closets, giggle with gal pals about how cute guys are and she'll cry over a man!

Would you think I've done women a service, or should I be sent to sensitivity training? I don't know that sexism is the right word, but there is something not helpful to women being taken serious here going on.

Again, I feel the need to mention, this whole post goes against my nature, just looking to be entertained... looking for less waterworks. Hell, in a different context I might have found the above scenario funny, but in this show? Ugh. Especially when the writers? tried to claim they didn't intentionally showcase her boobage? Yeah sure, insult my intelligence a little bit more. mmmhmmm.

Like Elvis once said, little less conversation, little more action please. All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me.

Haha i hope i was not insulting your intelligence there! I was not intending to at all. I definitely do not doubt the writers were looking to portray the women in some sort of sexy way. This is the unfortunate reality of TV.. and these are tired ideas that they try to sell. I also was not trying to communicate that the writers were NOT intentionally showcasing her boobage. I would be extremely naive to say that. I was merely pointing out to the OP that pointing that attribute as a character description (when he/she described James as the one with the big boobs that kicks guys asses) and seemingly accepting it does not really help out her argument against sexism!

I still do not get why the sex in the broom closet thing is that big of a deal to so many people. This does happen ... a lot. In fact, i bet at this exact moment, there is a girl out there having sex in a broom closet. SHOCK! HORROR! :). The fact that she was acting "girly" does not take away from her being this elite military badass. I think the writers would have done a greater disservice to themselves and people in general if they portrayed a military bad ass who displays no social aspects in their off time. This is definitely plausible. James most likely went to college (in fact she had to) in order to become an officer. I doubt that she has been a military bad ass a majority of her life. However i am going out there and making assumptions myself. I am just merely addressing to the original poster that yes, people in the military have bad days and can get upset too. They even (gasp!) CRY! It would be EXTREMELY naive to believe otherwise. Even bad ass military women get upset over a man, talk to their "gal pals" (she just seemed to be communicating to her friends), etc. You know how i know this? I have dated several of them! TRUST ME when i say they get upset and it is not always in the kick ass mode.

James is wearing standard air force issue clothing as well. Except for this whole tank top business... it would be naive of me to think that the director/writers did not think "oh this is sexy". However, it would be irrational of me to believe that she would not sleep in different clothes. I always question... when and where did the military personnel have the time to run and grab their extra set of clothes? :).

However, Asgard Live, i see the point you are trying to make. I do not doubt that the people who did the casting for James were intentionally looking for someone who would show off sex appeal. (in fact.. running up to the show.. they were talking about how SGU would be young and sexy.) I also can see your point about them possibly doing women a great disservice, but in other aspects the very fact that she is an officer in the AF special forces is extremely surprising! So i have to agree/disagree with you in a couple aspects. I think we are on the same page though. I do not think that they are doing women a disservice, but i am not quick to say they are doing women a great service as well.

The OP keeps yapping on how it seems unlikely that James would cry and keeps on talking about how others should cry first. Don't you think TV shows try to surprise you every now and then and avoid standard formula whenever they can? I already described the psychological and social aspects of how it is very plausible she would cry... so there is a story related one.

[Camasi]

Out of all of the much more important things we're discussing in this thread you choose to focus on her chest?


You focused on that in your original post. You used it to describe the principle of her character. Just saying :)

[Captain Obvious]

I really think you are splitting hairs here.

You can be "tough as nails" and still have emotions. They are trying to show her as a normal, balanced human being. She is getting comfortable enough around the people she works/lives with (and whom she may spend the rest of her life around) that she can relax on her "off" time (since they were coming to Eli to complain about showers in a casual way it did not seem like a "Work" situation to me).

She is obviously frustrated because she is trapped on a ship, and she felt like she was not only going to die a million light years from home, but going to die alone. The scene was meant to show that even the most tough as nails army special forces Lt. is psychologically effected by the stress of the situation.

Honestly, it was subtle , well played and actually showed the acting chops of a minor character that had been previously referred to as "Lt. McBoobs" by people who assumed her physical attributes were how she landed the role. Obviously we have been show otherwise.


Yes. And we've never seen a man cry on Stargate for anything but utmost sadness due to loss or something traumatic like wrecking your own life and the life of others. Not having a boyfriend, not that traumatic.

You don't think the despair of being stranded and feeling lost and alone can't be as profound as missing someone who died? Newsflash, more people commit suicide because they are lonely in general than because someone they love died.

Honestly, why do you always look for something sexist/racist/homophobic in the show? It really seems like more of a perception issue than an issue with the way the show is actually written.

[wargrafix]

Why not? They have their own gravitational field. lol

Point is, the character has realized that the life she was used to is gone. She is witnessing bitter lonliness. Perhaps she wants a meaningful relationship rather than the other miss "one night stand".
The incident where she lured Eli proves she used sex, or the promise of it, to get what she wants shows she is aware of the talents. Unless she does something differently, that is the standard that she should be judged.

[FallenAngelII]

Stuff.
You ignored everything I said and made general sweeping statements instead.

You didn't even address my finer points. Why did it have to be James? Why did it have to be a woman at all and not a man? Why did she have to be crying instead of doing something else to show that she was sad and/or lonely?

[wargrafix]

^^^^

why not a woman? Why not having her crying?

[Mike.]

Why not. You'd be complaining if another character was used instead of her.

James = representative for the military, yet not a character burdened by the main plot.

Crying = the best way to show an audience sadness, something that would be easily understood, and can fit in a 1 second scene.

[reddevil18]

^^^^

why not a woman? Why not having her crying?FEMINISM, dammit!

[MattSilver 3k]

feminism, dammit!

Moar female empowerment!

[jelgate]

FEMINISM, dammit!

I thought we agreed feminism was created while being chained to the stove and thus should be ignored.

Seriously I don't see the big deal. The military is trained to handle difficult situation on a emotional level but their not robots. They all are going to have thier breaking points where they can't handle the stress. Its not like she was crying in the middle of the mess

[reddevil18]

I thought we agreed feminism was created while being chained to the stove and thus should be ignored.

Agreed. James is probably crying because her Easy-Bake Oven broke and she can't win Scott's heart through his stomach anymore. He has cherry tomatoes now!

[MattSilver 3k]

No. I asked why she had to specifically cry. Why her specifically out of all the women on-board. And why show her crying and not simply being sad?

Why it was her, I'll reiterate: Space had probably the biggest development of James. Hero gal and all that like I noted earlier. So why not turn the "hero" image on its head, and give us an insight into James that only we can appreciate. Maybe she'll crack in front of other characters, and then we can say, "Oh. Well we saw this coming, because of Space!" We've seen Scott cry (Air 3, and Time), we had Greer do a little voice crack in Light, Eli look like he had a crying jag in Time (Post the alien worms attacking) and we've seen Chloe, Wray and TJ all cry.

And as to why she was crying instead of just looking sad? Wow, how else would you convey sadness within a few seconds? I thought it was effective.

[Lord Hurin]

(since they were coming to Eli to complain about showers in a casual way it did not seem like a "Work" situation to me).

Oooh, sounds sexist to me! Only women give a toss about the showers. Men want to be all sweaty and stinky and... manly! Sexism, RAWR!

And why don't any women get to man the shuttle? OH GOD! There's no oven in there!!!!!! SEXISM!! AAAHHHHHH!

Oh man, this is crazy...

[beafly]

Eh, I'm honestly surprised she was crying about Scott/Chole. That wasn't what I gathered after watching the sequence, and if I hadn't read it here, I would have kept on assuming she was crying because the scientist wasn't interested in pursuing a relationship with her.

[The_Asgard_live]

And as to why she was crying instead of just looking sad? Wow, how else would you convey sadness within a few seconds? I thought it was effective.

Off the top of my head... curled up next to a window alone in her room gazing out into the emptiness of space looking glum? On her bed, ipod on, arms drapped over knees, staring blankly, looking glum? As Jon lovitz would say. Acting!

[reddevil18]

Off the top of my head... curled up next to a window alone in her room gazing out into the emptiness of space looking glum? On her bed, ipod on, arms drapped over knees, staring blankly, looking glum? As Jon lovitz would say. Acting!
Next thing you know, we'll have cutting. An all-out crying session once in a while is better than being emo.

[Camasi]

i really hate that my posts are being ultra delayed. I think people are missing the points i was making because it queues me in the actual time i posted it. Doh!

[wargrafix]

Equality, yes. Feminism is a dead horse. its a walking paradox

[FallenAngelII]

Off the top of my head... curled up next to a window alone in her room gazing out into the emptiness of space looking glum? On her bed, ipod on, arms drapped over knees, staring blankly, looking glum? As Jon lovitz would say. Acting!
My point exactly.

If James had been a man, I guarantee you this would've been the route the writers would've gone. Pete was left by his fiancée. Did he cry? No. Daniel saw Sha'uri/Sha're die several times. Did he cry? Not on-screen. James gets dumped and then treated badly by her ex-hookup and she breaks down in tears and it's oh so realistic because, dammit, it just is!


Equality, yes. Feminism is a dead horse. its a walking paradox
That's because you're a man (most probably). The fact that "female" jobs earn less pay than "male" ones makes it blatant that sexism still exists in our society. Heck, "men's" jobs which become "women's" jobs magically start earning less! Or different pay for equal work in a field where men have no real advantage over women.

Sexism exists. It might be subtle a lot of the time, but it's still there. And I guarantee you there are still many who consider it normal for a woman to cry over a busted relationship but would look down on a man for doing the same.

[Lord Hurin]

That's because you're a man (most probably). The fact that "female" jobs earn less pay than "male" ones makes it blatant that sexism still exists in our society. Heck, "men's" jobs which become "women's" jobs magically start earning less! Or different pay for equal work in a field where men have no real advantage over women.

I believe wargrafix meant that feminism (as opposed to equal rights) is ridiculous and paradoxal. As far as I'm concerned, there IS a difference. Women who say "I want the same job a man can get, at the same salary" are completely in the right, but this is a case of equal rights. There are women out there who would like nothing more than for men to be relegated to second-class citizens as women were for hundreds of years. This is, in itself, sexism and thus does nothing to further their cause. Rather, it takes some wind out of their sails, so to speak. Having said that, those are the extreme feminists out there. I don't condone extremism in any form.


Sexism exists. It might be subtle a lot of the time, but it's still there. And I guarantee you there are still many who consider it normal for a woman to cry over a busted relationship but would look down on a man for doing the same.

There are men out there who think they'd be a pansy for crying at their father's funeral. There are men out there who think the Earth is flat. There are men out there who think women should belong in the kitchen. I think modern wisdom says that all three of those things are untrue. There are just some people who don't follow such things. Racism still exists, sexism still exists, homophobia still exists. I'd like to believe that the majority of learned people don't still follow things like that, that as a species we are slowly moving past it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a nice thing to hope for.

Bottom line, if they had shown any of the male or female characters breaking down and crying due to their current situation, I would've bought it. They're stressed out, on little food, not sleeping well and bickering with each other. Under these conditions, little things can have a big impact on someone. James just happened to be the character who was developed most in the episode, I think. They showed her taking charge (sometimes with adverse results) and trying to help out.

[Tabula Rasa]

Women should never have been allowed the vote. Since they have left their kitchens things have gone downhill sharpish!

http://theinvisibleagent.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/sexist-ad-3.jpg

[Jill_Ion]

ROTF!

People laugh. People cry. Male or female. James had been through a lot. She felt like crying. The end.

[CCA]

I just wanted to butt in and say, I had no problem of her crying. Sometimes you put on such a front for everybody that once your alone with your own thoughts, which can be your own worst enemy...sometimes there nothing left but to cry. I'd rather be shot then cry in front of somebody, but man when I'm alone nobody knows but me. Not sure if this makes sense, but thats kind of how I looked at it with her.

Stuff is eating her up, she probably generally liked him and wanted him to feel the samw about her, and now he doesn't. It's hard and thus, when she was alone the emotion came out.

This is probably all been said, but I just wanted to say it to :D

[Ashizuri]

What do you mean women who kick ass and take names also cry when they get dumped/jilted/broken hearted/stuck on a space ship with no way home?!?!

Look, women can cry and it doesn't make them weak and it's not sexist. Crying is a perfectly healthy and natural outlet for emotions and stress. In fact, I'd say that idea that crying is not something a "strong" woman would do is far more sexist than the act of crying itself.

And are you seriously suggesting that soldiers don't cry? Really? I've known plenty of soldiers, and believe me, they cry and they're not ashamed who see's it.

When did crying become something so shameful?

[Tabula Rasa]

Being serious... James has been jilted by Sexy Scientist Guy, been traded in for a younger model by Matty boy, who appears to be suffering from a severe case of satyriasis by the way - can see him turning into SGU's answer to Cpt Kirk, making sweet love to anything with two legs and a hole, be it green, red, yellow or pink - and to top it all off she's stuck a billion light years from any form of sex toy you wish to imagine.

Poor James! :(

[Commander Zelix]

ROTF!

People laugh. People cry. Male or female. James had been through a lot. She felt like crying. The end.
This just doesn't happen in real life.

[prion]

What do you mean women who kick ass and take names also cry when they get dumped/jilted/broken hearted/stuck on a space ship with no way home?!?!

Look, women can cry and it doesn't make them weak and it's not sexist. Crying is a perfectly healthy and natural outlet for emotions and stress. In fact, I'd say that idea that crying is not something a "strong" woman would do is far more sexist than the act of crying itself.

And are you seriously suggesting that soldiers don't cry? Really? I've known plenty of soldiers, and believe me, they cry and they're not ashamed who see's it.

When did crying become something so shameful?

Of course people cry. What would be more 'out of the box' if you showed a GUY crying (which, in the privacy of his quarters, would be okay as then the other guys wouldn't go 'whoa, chill, get it together!'). I did read on Mallozzi's blog why she was crying, but.... I really dislike it when the producer/writers come out to explain something. They shouldn't. It's like having the Cliffnotes of SGU tossed at you and leaves nothing to the imagination...

[Camasi]

The different between the loss of a fiance and Daniel Jackson having his wife die/ space coming up is that the show was honestly written very poorly back then when it came to certain forms of human emotions. At least i think so.

[Coronach]

Of course people cry. What would be more 'out of the box' if you showed a GUY crying (which, in the privacy of his quarters, would be okay as then the other guys wouldn't go 'whoa, chill, get it together!').

I agree! This, much like the scene with James, would be a wonderfully realistic way of showing a stressed human being trying to cope with that stress.

Of course, I know not everyone views the scene as consistent with Lt. James' character (though it's nice to see the vast majority of the thread does and I'm not alone in my apparent craziness :P), and that's fine. Live and let live, and all that jazz. :cool:

[dacooker]

Ya I agree, why would they put her crying at the end. She obviously didn't overhere Caine taking to TJ, since it showed Young instead.
So why is she crying, and why do we care? Is it the boobs? Yes.

[Coronach]

Ya I agree, why would they put her crying at the end. She obviously didn't overhere Caine taking to TJ, since it showed Young instead.
So why is she crying, and why do we care? Is it the boobs? Yes.

Well that's an unfortunate side-effect of female anatomy. :(

[PG15]

James gets dumped and then treated badly by her ex-hookup and she breaks down in tears and it's oh so realistic because, dammit, it just is!

Well, it is...to some. And it isn't to you. What's the problem? It's not like there's any objective evidence that points to whether James should've cried or not.

[spinny magee]

Well, it is...to some. And it isn't to you. What's the problem? It's not like there's any objective evidence that points to whether James should've cried or not.

Heres 2 better questions

1. Who really cares?
2. WHY ARE WE ARGUING OVER THIS.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3196806411_7cf4a1e13b.jpg

[reddevil18]

Heres 2 better questions

1. Who really cares?
2. WHY ARE WE ARGUING OVER THIS.http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TGI-Kgh7wWg/R-Jz11ge6yI/AAAAAAAAANU/c3G771OIe7Y/s320/feminism.png

[FallenAngelII]

I believe wargrafix meant that feminism (as opposed to equal rights) is ridiculous and paradoxal. As far as I'm concerned, there IS a difference. Women who say "I want the same job a man can get, at the same salary" are completely in the right, but this is a case of equal rights. There are women out there who would like nothing more than for men to be relegated to second-class citizens as women were for hundreds of years. This is, in itself, sexism and thus does nothing to further their cause. Rather, it takes some wind out of their sails, so to speak. Having said that, those are the extreme feminists out there. I don't condone extremism in any form.
The main values of feminism is not to have women overthrow men and rule them with an iron fist. That's the values of the extremists. There are extremists in every organization/group/belief out there, so let's not judge everyone by their extremists.

Feminism is, at its core, the belief that women deserve equal rights. That said, I'm not just a feminist, I'm an Egalitarian, that is to say, I believe in and fight for equal rights for everybody, regardless of sex, sexuality, religion, creed, color, etc.


There are men out there who think they'd be a pansy for crying at their father's funeral. There are men out there who think the Earth is flat. There are men out there who think women should belong in the kitchen. I think modern wisdom says that all three of those things are untrue. There are just some people who don't follow such things. Racism still exists, sexism still exists, homophobia still exists. I'd like to believe that the majority of learned people don't still follow things like that, that as a species we are slowly moving past it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a nice thing to hope for.
The problem is that the things you mention are believed by exceedingly few people. The things I mentioned are beliefs still held by many (not the majority, but still). Trust me, I'm a teacher student and even in a country like Sweden, there's still rampant sexism going on in our educational system, even among teachers.

Not that we discriminate or anything, but we still think about things in a highly warped gender-role based way. "If a boy cries, he's hurt" and "If a girl cries, she's sad", for example. Boys get made fun of if they cry, but if a girl cries, it's perfectly normal.

Which is why I find it so ridiculous that in 2010, Stargate Universe chooses to show a woman as "old" and strong as James is crying over busted relationships.


Bottom line, if they had shown any of the male or female characters breaking down and crying due to their current situation, I would've bought it. They're stressed out, on little food, not sleeping well and bickering with each other.
Crying due to stress, that's fine. Crying because Scott treated her like crap (which is what JM says it is)? Umm... no.

[MattSilver 3k]

Crying due to stress, that's fine. Crying because Scott treated her like crap (which is what JM says it is)? Umm... no.

Well then why don't you just ignore what JM's interpretation was when he wrote it and think of a plausible reason yourself? Just imagine we're in an alternate universe where JM doesn't keep a regular blog, and do some thinking...

[FallenAngelII]

Well then why don't you just ignore what JM's interpretation was when he wrote it and think of a plausible reason yourself? Just imagine we're in an alternate universe where JM doesn't keep a regular blog, and do some thinking...
So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?

[EllieVee]

So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?

Yep.

[MattSilver 3k]

So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?

Whatever helps you sleep at night and stops this thread in its tracks... Because, if you're looking for a TV show with sensitivity to all kinds of groups - feminists, gay/lesbian groups - maybe you shy away from this one, seeing as its predecessors are written by the same people who have the same ideals and will tout the same stereotypes. Rewatch SG1 and Atlantis, count your blessings, and then decide if it's all worth it.

And yeah, I'm changing my argument since you're ignoring all the points of my first one.

[The_Asgard_live]

So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?
The end game is to justify/defend the show/characters. We've all been there with something we liked or loved. Unable to accept any criticism. Although I do find it funny this isn't supposed to be worthy as a topic of discussion. Is anything? Its all made up BS.

I don't know if you ever seen firefly but Zoe, now there was a bad-ass chick. Her husband Wash by comparison took the "fem" role. When he was killed in the movie, she didn't cry. It just made her mad. But this isn't firefly, and these writers aren't Joss Whedon

[Mike.]

So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?

If it makes you feel better you should do just that. This "discussion" is not a debate anymore because you're unwilling to accept any opposing points and just repeating yourself. No new content, this makes this thread useless.

It's not sexist, not in an offensive manner as you consider it. And there no reason to force it to be.

[FallenAngelII]

If it makes you feel better you should do just that. This "discussion" is not a debate anymore because you're unwilling to accept any opposing points and just repeating yourself. No new content, this makes this thread useless.

It's not sexist, not in an offensive manner as you consider it. And there no reason to force it to be.
I've said it time and again that it's probably not deliberate on the part of the writers. But it is not I who refuse to accept the opinion of others, it is you. I have never said "Well, this couldn't possibly be due to anything but sexism". I'm not the one arguing as if the opposing side consists of loons who are categorically wrong.

I merely have not yet been persuaded by the opposition. My opinion is still the same as when this thread started. It is an opinion and just as valid as yours. We disagree. However, I would never have the gall to say "It is clearly sexism and that is all it can be!" as opposed to some people who state "It's not sexism! Not at all! Never ever!".

I don't speak in absolutes when it comes to my personal opinion and personal interpretation. Because I'm cool like that.

[Jill_Ion]

This just doesn't happen in real life.

Huh? You're kidding, right? People don't cry?

[maxbo]

My first reaction to that sobbing-James scene was an eyeroll because after seeing sobbing-Chloe, sobbing-Camille and sobbing-TJ, I knew it was just a matter of time before we would see a sobbing-James and a sobbing-Park. Stargate's writers always did struggle to write for women, but these sobbing-female scenes have become redundant and strangely amusing because each time I see one, I wonder which female character will be sobbing next.

My second reaction to the sobbing-James scene was that I was being too harsh and that I should just view the scene in the context of the rough day that James had survived - being on a ship attacked by aliens, trying to keep her shipmates safe, helping out in the infirmary, seeing crew members die and/or get hurt, and risking her life to save them.

Given all that she had gone through - not for one moment did I believe that she was sobbing her eyes out because of a man. As silly as I found the speculations that she was crying over the new guy, I found the reality that she was crying over Scott, of all people, just as silly because like the Scott/Chloe hook-up, it came out of nowhere.


The end game is to justify/defend the show/characters. We've all been there with something we liked or loved. Unable to accept any criticism. Although I do find it funny this isn't supposed to be worthy as a topic of discussion. Is anything? Its all made up BS.

I don't know if you ever seen firefly but Zoe, now there was a bad-ass chick. Her husband Wash by comparison took the "fem" role. When he was killed in the movie, she didn't cry. It just made her mad. But this isn't firefly, and these writers aren't Joss Whedon

Yeah, I'm also amused that, for some, this topic is suddenly not considered worthy of disussion. The criticism that these writers can't write women well has always been a timely topic of discussion because these writers keep providing reasons to keep related discussions going.

As for Zoe in Firefly, yes, she was a great example of a bad-ass female (and, the other characters were well-written too), but as you said, sadly, these writers aren't Joss Whedon. As a result, I expect to see each female character written with the same basic template, with a few modifications to highlight which stereotype she represents to the writers.


I've said it time and again that it's probably not deliberate on the part of the writers. But it is not I who refuse to accept the opinion of others, it is you. I have never said "Well, this couldn't possibly be due to anything but sexism". I'm not the one arguing as if the opposing side consists of loons who are categorically wrong.

I merely have not yet been persuaded by the opposition. My opinion is still the same as when this thread started. It is an opinion and just as valid as yours. We disagree. However, I would never have the gall to say "It is clearly sexism and that is all it can be!" as opposed to some people who state "It's not sexism! Not at all! Never ever!".

I don't speak in absolutes when it comes to my personal opinion and personal interpretation. Because I'm cool like that.

Thanks for starting this thread because ever since I read Mallozzi's clarification of the sobbing-James scene, it's been interesting reading the reactions on the various boards and I find it strangely noteworthy that the first reaction is often disbelief.

As for whether the writers are trying to be sexist, I have to agree with you that, no, they're not *trying* to be sexist. Unfortunately, I believe that the reality is even worse - that their view of women is so inherently sexist that they're not even aware that they are sexist. If they're not aware that they're sexist, then they're not likely to write their female characters better anytime soon.

[Naonak]

I don't know if you ever seen firefly but Zoe, now there was a bad-ass chick. Her husband Wash by comparison took the "fem" role. When he was killed in the movie, she didn't cry. It just made her mad. But this isn't firefly, and these writers aren't Joss Whedon
Then there's Inara, who broke down into tears when Mal hooked up with Nandi.

Just sayin'.


So your argument is now that we should ignore what the writers actually wrote into the episode (what is there and what was ultimately cut) and just make up a BS reason so that you can justify their completely quasi-sexist writing?
Yup, that Scott moment was cut. Why not ignore it? Hey, you're the one who said in the Chloe thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73848-Chloe-I-have-no-idea-why-I-m-here!) that we "work with what we have" rather than going to the blog all the time.

Considering the situation, "stress" is hardly making up some BS.

[s09119]

I don't see what's wrong with a girl crying over a boy treating her like ****, regardless of age, but okay.

[Commander Zelix]

Huh? You're kidding, right? People don't cry?
It was sarcasm obviously. As I said, her crying over her loneliness in private felt real. I have no problem with it. She's obviously more emotional than other people, but that's life. We're not all alike.

[Jonzey]

What man would you rather have cry in that scene?

[carmencatalina]

We've seen Rush cry (in the first episode), and I also think we see a tear drop from Young's face as he looks at his wedding ring in his quarters during "Darkness". As others have mentioned, Scott cries in his flashback scene.

So some crying by the boys, as well.

[GateroomGuard]

You know I was thinking today and this quote came to me. I'm pretty sure it came from Mark Twain but I can't seem to find it online, probably wording it wrong, but the idea of it is this, "A parent will tell a child not to cry when their kite gets destroyed. To an adult the kites not worth crying over, but to a child it is. So don't tell a child not to cry over something when you are not percieiving it as they do."

What caused James to cry may not have made some people cry but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make her cry. There isn't a universal rule for these things, its up to the individual.

I know this from expierence. When my grandfather died a few years ago, a man I've known and loved since I was a child I didn't even shed a single tear. My eyes may have gotten a little wattery but I never cried. When my uncle, who I've know just as long and as well, died a year ago I was bawling my eyes out for days. But I also cried just as much when I got a progress report back that had less than stellar grades. My uncle meant a lot more to me than getting a few Cs in school yet I cried the same. Why would I have drastically different reactions? I don't know, thats the point. I've cried maybe 4 times total in all my life, other than that I'm as emotionless as Mr. Spock, but simply because I don't show emotions doesn't mean that a series of variables won't send me to the floor in tears.

James cried, why I can't tell you other than what I've listed before. Should she have cried over it? Why not? I can't percieve things how she percieved them but would I have cried? Probably. If variables were different would she still have cried? I don't know, maybe. I have an event happen to me twice in my life thats exactly the same, one time I laugh at it the other I cry. Thats what being human is.

Thats why I think there is nothing wrong with James crying. Why I think the writers wanted James to cry is a lot less difficult to explain. They wanted to show that she's human and crying is the easiest way to express that because we've all done it, we can all relate.

just my two cents. :)

[PG15]

Crying due to stress, that's fine. Crying because Scott treated her like crap (which is what JM says it is)? Umm... no.



I'm tired of people pulling up JM's blog of "What could have been". We work with what we have.

.

[The_Asgard_live]

Then there's Inara, who broke down into tears when Mal hooked up with Nandi.
Just sayin'

That she did (I think, been awhile), but that was her role right? The ultimate female companion, not warrior. Her and Mal were secretly or not so secretly pining for each other. It works.

I don't think the question is, is it plausible that James cried? Of course it is. The question (I think) for FallenAngel, and I know for me is did we really need another female (or person for that matter) crying on this show? Why not give us one Zoe for this show? I have 2 goals for this show

1. To be entertained
2. For it to stop being a show where my brother walks in during the latest cry-a-thon and says "my wife makes me watch shows like this, why do you do it?".

Besides, call it a hunch, but I would bet big time that most or all those explaining away how
"real" it was that she was crying would be doing cartwheels if the show unfolded in the way I offered it could have. If they had showed Scott disrespect James and she knocked him on his ass and called him a pansy. Instead just alot of making excuses for what we got. At least there was no biochemical breakdown as to why real humans cry to explain the actions of the character. (Chloe thread). Really, is that where we are at now?

[Madigan]

You know I was thinking today and this quote came to me. I'm pretty sure it came from Mark Twain but I can't seem to find it online, probably wording it wrong, but the idea of it is this, "A parent will tell a child not to cry when their kite gets destroyed. To an adult the kites not worth crying over, but to a child it is. So don't tell a child not to cry over something when you are not percieiving it as they do."

What caused James to cry may not have made some people cry but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make her cry. There isn't a universal rule for these things, its up to the individual.

I know this from expierence. When my grandfather died a few years ago, a man I've known and loved since I was a child I didn't even shed a single tear. My eyes may have gotten a little wattery but I never cried. When my uncle, who I've know just as long and as well, died a year ago I was bawling my eyes out for days. But I also cried just as much when I got a progress report back that had less than stellar grades. My uncle meant a lot more to me than getting a few Cs in school yet I cried the same. Why would I have drastically different reactions? I don't know, thats the point. I've cried maybe 4 times total in all my life, other than that I'm as emotionless as Mr. Spock, but simply because I don't show emotions doesn't mean that a series of variables won't send me to the floor in tears.

James cried, why I can't tell you other than what I've listed before. Should she have cried over it? Why not? I can't percieve things how she percieved them but would I have cried? Probably. If variables were different would she still have cried? I don't know, maybe. I have an event happen to me twice in my life thats exactly the same, one time I laugh at it the other I cry. Thats what being human is.

Thats why I think there is nothing wrong with James crying. Why I think the writers wanted James to cry is a lot less difficult to explain. They wanted to show that she's human and crying is the easiest way to express that because we've all done it, we can all relate.

just my two cents. :)Sometimes the truth of it can't simply be found Intellectually or Logically even by the best analysts in all of us. No sometimes in simply can be found by the quieting of the mind and the emergence of the heart of the matter.

That is when we find Wisdom and there is no greater Human truth than that.

Good post.

[Mr.Xcelent]

I'm on the fence about this, but I do see what they where going for. Though there might be some who say she should be over the Scott thing by now, well nothing of the heart is that easy. Aside from that embarrassing thing with the Doctor, which added a little smile to the ever depressing fact of there given situation. Still reminder her of her new found loneness. And during the attack she stood and watch two crew member nearly get killed due to electrocution. As a military personal I was happy how she took it in and went to work to save them if possible. But at the end of the day as you saw Scott with Chloe in bed. You got the feeling that at least Chloe has some one to talk to about her ordeal. But who does James have? to bare all that on and help her get through another day. So Yeah I think this scene was used to convey some of that. That all though she is a strong female military type, she is still a women who at the end of the day still would like some one to hold her, and let her know it o.k., you did your best. And that you are not alone. With the amount of in fighting going on aboard Destiny, I'm sure a lot of people are starting to feel alone with no one to trust to turn to and hear "It gonna be alright, where in this together".

[jimv1983]

The fact that this thread exists adds to my point of what is wrong with SGU.

"I think that guy is cute"
"Oh no he heard me I'm so embarrassed"
"I like him but he likes someone else"
"I'm gonna go cry"

And people don't understand why some of use call SGU a soap opera.
Really? With scenes like this you really don't know?
Seriously, WTF happened to Stargate?

[jelgate]

The fact that this thread exists adds to my point of what is wrong with SGU.

"I think that guy is cute"
"Oh no he heard me I'm so embarrassed"
"I like him but he likes someone else"
"I'm gonna go cry"

And people don't understand why some of use call SGU a soap opera.
Really? With scenes like this you really don't know?
Seriously, WTF happened to Stargate?

So apparently emotions=soap opera.
I'll go alert the media.

Seriously you don't know the embarrassment is what made James cry. In fact I highly doubt it. It could be a whole range of things. For all we know James cries herself to sleep every night.

[carmencatalina]

For all we know James cries herself to sleep every night.

That would actually be interesting - she is tough and capable when she needs to do her job, but cries in private to deal with all the sh*t going on around her. I had a good friend in grad school who was getting her PhD in physics in a lab that was all guys, all jerks, all the time. Her rule was never cry in front on anybody, but she would have a good stiff drink and a cry alone at night.

(Don't worry about my friend - she is a professor in physics now, and doesn't cry much now - she says she makes other people cry.)

[Wayston]

I had also assumed she was crying over caine. The inference of the scene was definatly crying over being lonely, whether it is scott as apparantly intended or someone else. I've seen her relationship with scott being described as "casual sex", but what if it was casual for scott but not for her?

In any case she's been shrugged off by two men in the same day (caine by ignoring her comments, scott apparantly ignoring her or whatever) on top of having had a rough day at the office to begin with and generally being lightyears away from home facing an uncertain future. She has no reason to cry? lol...

[jimv1983]

So apparently emotions=soap opera.
I'll go alert the media.

Seriously you don't know the embarrassment is what made James cry. In fact I highly doubt it. It could be a whole range of things. For all we know James cries herself to sleep every night.
Emotions do not equal soap opera. That much emotion does equal soap opera. Did you watch SG-1? Do you remember when Jacob Carter died? That was emotional without going so far overboard that it seem like a soap opera.


I had also assumed she was crying over caine. The inference of the scene was definatly crying over being lonely, whether it is scott as apparantly intended or someone else. I've seen her relationship with scott being described as "casual sex", but what if it was casual for scott but not for her?

In any case she's been shrugged off by two men in the same day (caine by ignoring her comments, scott apparantly ignoring her or whatever) on top of having had a rough day at the office to begin with and generally being lightyears away from home facing an uncertain future. She has no reason to cry? lol...

This is STARGATE. Its SCI-FI. Why does it have the OVERLY emotional crap. I don't care about the emotional stuff being that heavy. Focus on the technology, science, aliens, space battles and fill in the rest with some emotional drama. Don't focus on the drama.

[Ashizuri]

Emotions do not equal soap opera. That much emotion does equal soap opera. Did you watch SG-1? Do you remember when Jacob Carter died? That was emotional without going so far overboard that it seem like a soap opera.

Vala cried in Unending and the reason for her tears, much like James in Space, were only later explained on Mallozzi's blog. Vala also cried in Memento Mori. Remember Daniel's tears in Need? Sam's in Heroes Pt. 2? Sam cried when Jacob told her he had cancer in Secrets. Do you think all those emotional moments went overboard and made SG-1 seem like a soap opera?


This is STARGATE. Its SCI-FI. Why does it have the OVERLY emotional crap. I don't care about the emotional stuff being that heavy. Focus on the technology, science, aliens, space battles and fill in the rest with some emotional drama. Don't focus on the drama.

Universe is a dramatic, character driven show, meaning the character drama is likely always going to take precedence over the aliens, space battles, technology etc.

[Coronach]

That would actually be interesting - she is tough and capable when she needs to do her job, but cries in private to deal with all the sh*t going on around her. I had a good friend in grad school who was getting her PhD in physics in a lab that was all guys, all jerks, all the time. Her rule was never cry in front on anybody, but she would have a good stiff drink and a cry alone at night.

(Don't worry about my friend - she is a professor in physics now, and doesn't cry much now - she says she makes other people cry.)

Just wanna say that's awesome! I mean...not the jerk part, but the fact that she got a job as a professor so it was (hopefully) all worth it. :D

[Captain Obvious]

Women should never have been allowed the vote. Since they have left their kitchens things have gone downhill sharpish!

http://theinvisibleagent.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/sexist-ad-3.jpg

Of I can find a poster sized version of this I am hanging it in the kitchen. I am sure my wife won't mind.

[EllieVee]

The fact that this thread exists adds to my point of what is wrong with SGU.

"I think that guy is cute"
"Oh no he heard me I'm so embarrassed"
"I like him but he likes someone else"
"I'm gonna go cry"

And people don't understand why some of use call SGU a soap opera.
Really? With scenes like this you really don't know?
Seriously, WTF happened to Stargate?

This:

O'NEILL: No ... yeah ... I mean, it's fine. So, um, (he glances towards the house again) what brings you to this neck of the woods on such a fine day in my back yard?

CARTER: Well, actually, I've, um, (she clears her throat) I've been sitting in your driveway for the last ten minutes trying to work up the nerve to come and talk to you. (Jack raises his eyebrows at her.) The truth is, I've been trying to work up the nerve for a lot longer than that. (She smiles nervously.)

O'NEILL: Oh? (He gestures for her to continue.)

CARTER: Pete put a down payment on a house.

O'NEILL: Well, that's great!

CARTER: It's a beautiful house.

O'NEILL: But?

CARTER: The-the truth is, I'm having second thoughts about the wedding.

O'NEILL (gazing at her, puzzled): Why?

CARTER: See, the ... the thing is, the closer it gets, the more I get the feeling that ... I'm making a big, huge, mistake.

(Jack looks at her for a moment, then glances towards the house again.)

O'NEILL: Look, Carter, the ... I don't know what ...

CARTER: Look, I'm sorry to bother you with this, but, uh ... see, there's actually a very good reason that I'm bothering you with this, and if I don't tell you now, I might never ...

(At that moment, Kerry comes out of the house with a salad bowl in one hand and a dish of something in the other.)

JOHNSON: Jack, I looked everywhere -- I could not find ... (She stops dead at the sight of Sam standing there. Sam closes her eyes in disbelief, then winces before turning towards Kerry.) Colonel Carter.

(Sam nods to her, then turns towards Jack again.)

O'NEILL: Ms Johnson.

CARTER: Yeah, I didn't -- I didn't ...

O'NEILL: We were just ... meeting here in my back yard on this fine day to discuss the state of affairs.

(Sam nods, not believing a word of it.)

JOHNSON: Well, this is awkward!

CARTER: Ya think?!

JOHNSON: Jack didn't want anyone at the S.G.C. to know about us.

(Jack goes over to her to take the bowl and dish off her.)

CARTER: No, look, I, uh, uh, I'm sorry, this is my fault, I really, I shouldn't have come by unannounced like this.

JOHNSON: Well, y'know, now that the cat's out of the bag, you're here, why don't you just stay? I'm sure there's enough charred meat on the grill for all three of us.

(Jack gestures at her with a piece of the charred meat. Sam laughs.)

CARTER: No -- thank you -- I, um ... (At that moment her cellphone rings. She gets it out and looks at the Caller ID.) It's the S.G.C. (She answers the phone.) Colonel Carter. (Kerry smiles at Jack and walks over to him. He offers her his bottle of beer.) What? When? ... OK, I'm on my way. (She hangs up.) I-I gotta go. Uh, it's my dad. (She hurries away.)

[jimv1983]

Vala cried in Unending and the reason for her tears, much like James in Space, were only later explained on Mallozzi's blog. Vala also cried in Memento Mori. Remember Daniel's tears in Need? Sam's in Heroes Pt. 2? Sam cried when Jacob told her he had cancer in Secrets. Do you think all those emotional moments went overboard and made SG-1 seem like a soap opera?


I'm not saying SG-1 was never over dramatic. Vala crying in Unending during her thing with Daniel was over the top. I'm saying it was very rare for it to get over dramatic. SG-1 had 214 episodes, SGU has had 11 and they are about equal on overly dramatic soap opera scenes.




Universe is a dramatic, character driven show, meaning the character drama is likely always going to take precedence over the aliens, space battles, technology etc.
You are completely right. That's my problem with it. I'm not saying it should have no emotion or drama. If the characters displayed no emotions that would be bad too. SG-1 and SGA had the emotional/dram dial set to 3 or 4 out of 10 and that was great. SGU has the dial set to 11.

As a Stargate fan from the beginning ( saw the premier of SG-1 in summer of '97 and have seen every episode many times, Atlantis and all the movies too) its really disappointing to see it go this direction. SGU has effectively killed the Stargate franchise.

[Lahela]

As a Stargate fan from the beginning ( saw the premier of SG-1 in summer of '97 and have seen every episode many times, Atlantis and all the movies too) its really disappointing to see it go this direction. SGU has effectively killed the Stargate franchise.

As a Stargate fan from the beginning (saw the premier of SG-1 in summer of '97 and have seen every episode many times, Atlantis and all the movies too) its really exciting to see it go this direction. SGU has effectively reinvigorated the Stargate franchise. In my opinion.

Don't you just love how people can see the same thing so differently?! :)

[EllieVee]

As a Stargate fan from the beginning ( saw the premier of SG-1 in summer of '97 and have seen every episode many times, Atlantis and all the movies too) its really disappointing to see it go this direction. SGU has effectively killed the Stargate franchise.

Not very effectively given the S2 renewal of SGU.


As a Stargate fan from the beginning (saw the premier of SG-1 in summer of '97 and have seen every episode many times, Atlantis and all the movies too) its really exciting to see it go this direction. SGU has effectively reinvigorated the Stargate franchise. In my opinion.

Don't you just love how people can see the same thing so differently?! :)

Yes!

[Rudy Pena]

I mean, the show hasn't been blatantly sexist insofar, but I got really ticked off when we were shown James randomly crying at the end of "Space".

Sure, in the past we'd had fan service scenes where either Chloe or James is naked or half-naked but, hey, at least that wasn't sexist. It was just opportunistic (of the writers/showrunners). Then, in this episode, all of a sudden, James is reduced to a 14 yearold girl!

First get the scene where she gushes about the Cute Scientist (henceforth known as the Cutist). Then, when she is told that he can hear her, she goes "Kill me now!" while she and TJ run off and TJ's practically skipping and being all "Girlfriend! That was so embarassing!"-ish. Then the Cutist turns her down, which seemingly leads to her crying in her room (half-naked, I might add).

I mean, what gives?! These are strong military women! Soldiers! James has always been portrayed as the one with the Big Boobies Who Can Kick Most Guys' Asses. Yet one guy turns her down and she is reduced to tears? Really?! Unless I'm going senile, I don't remember Eli crying when Chloe ended up going out with Scott. And he's a softie civilian! Meanwhile, just because James is a woman, she stereotypically breaks down in tears?!

I thought we were past this, PTB.

So, I get this right......You think just because soldiers are soldier, They cant cry???????

Well, I can tell you as a soldier in the US Army, We do cry. Weather a buddy(buddies) of ours get blown up or something happens in our personal lives. Weather it was something that happened in the past or something that recently happened.

I think people like you, who think that Soldiers cant show any emotions at all, are a little too closed minded about soldiers, sailors and airmen. :o

[EllieVee]

So, I get this right......You think just because soldiers are soldier, They cant cry???????

Well, I can tell you as a soldier in the US Army, We do cry. Weather a buddy(buddies) of ours get blown up or something happens in our personal lives. Weather it was something that happened in the past or something that recently happened.

I think people like you, who think that Soldiers cant show any emotions at all, are a little too closed minded about soldiers, sailors and airmen. :o

*hugs Rudy*

[Rudy Pena]

*hugs Elli back*

[EllieVee]

Okay, you can let go now ... Rudy, let go now ...

RUDY!

[Rudy Pena]

*Lets go of Ellie now* :o

[Tabula Rasa]

Of I can find a poster sized version of this I am hanging it in the kitchen. I am sure my wife won't mind.

If she minds then get yourself a new wife. Plenty of young harlots out there looking for a sugar daddy ;)

[Lord Hurin]

Hmmm... I can't seem to find the quote, but someone mentioned they would've liked the outcome better if James had put Scott "on his ass" after treating her like crap. It reminded me of all the Greer-hate threads where oh so many people called him a barbarian and loose cannon for being vaguely threatening.

So, it would be acceptable for James to knock out a senior officer for being mean.

It it NOT ok for Greer to be vaguely threatening when someone threatens to throw him in "the brig" or implies they think he's a murderer?

Where's the logic there?

[Confessor Rahl]

But any rational thinking person could come to a conclusion that she was crying about Scott. I mean, that moment was shown next to Scott and Chloe in bed. I would think that people could pick that up.

Agreed wholeheartedly. That was my perception anyway.

[The Swarm]

She was crying becouse once you "read" the Scotty, the other books start to look so dull and boreing, that you just cant stop reading it over and over and over and over....again.

[TheLastSunset]

It seemed like nothing sexist or anything. It seemed really powerful and poignant to me. The minute I saw it I felt the emotion profoundly and it fit so well with the music and all the events that were being shown.

[EllieVee]

You wouldn't know she was crying about Scott if JM hadn't mentioned the cut scene. I think the issue with the scene (and I don't have a problem with it) is that the last time we saw James in the episode, she'd just done the whole widowers are sexy thing. There's something of a disconnection between the two. Had it been connected to her overall sense of being alone, it would have made more sense.

[shipper hannah]

I didn't consider the scene sexist. Just.. human. It was clear to me at least that James was crying about Scott not the random guy who overheard her. It was showing that she cared more about Scott than previously assumed - to Scott she was just a romp in the storeroom.