Thought On Destiny's Reactors.

[Lantien84]

While watching "Light" I noticed that Destiny passes through the upper atmosphere of a gas giant right before entering the sun to refuel itself. Given that the upper atmospheres of gas giants hold a significant amount of helium and hydrogen, could it be possible that the Destiny purposely traveled through the planet to scoop up helium-3 for backup power and hydrogen for engine propellant? As for the ship dipping into the sun, my best guess is that Destiny's form of F.T.L. propulsion requires an enormous amount of power, hence the need for anti-matter fuel. Any thoughts on this?

[Lantien84]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that the Lucien Alliance would want to figure out how Destiny's refueling systems and reactors work. A more modern ship with that type of anti-matter fueled power source might give a Z.P.M. enhanced ship a run for it's money + it would be re-fuelable, something that's impossible for a Z.P.M. to do.

[Coremae]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that the Lucien Alliance would want to figure out how Destiny's refueling systems and reactors work. A more modern ship with that type of anti-matter fueled power source might give a Z.P.M. enhanced ship a run for it's money + it would be re-fuelable, something that's impossible for a Z.P.M. to do.

Sweet Mercy man, why the hell didn't I see that connection? It makes perfect sense in hind sight. Imagine a ship with the power that Destiny no doubt has, and all it needs is a star to refuel, and it doesn't use hyperspace but FTL. I'm guessing the FTL was intentional for some reason.

[Quadhelix]

As for the ship dipping into the sun, my best guess is that Destiny's form of F.T.L. propulsion requires an enormous amount of power, hence the need for anti-matter fuel. ...anti-matter?

I'm sorry, but what does anti-matter have to do with anything?

[Lantien84]

Destiny refueled itself in the sun, the sun produces and enormous amount of anti-matter. It makes sense that if the Destiny were to refuel itself in the atmosphere of a star it would collect the most powerful fuel in that environment: anti-matter. Theoretically an anti-matter fueled fusion reactor would be ten times as powerful as a conventional reactor. The type of power core Destiny uses could be a technology the Ancients lost during their history and the advantages of a reactor that powerful capable of infinitely refueling itself could be used to create ships that could match or exceed the power and capabilities of Ori ships or even Atlantis.

[ColdZero]

Destiny refueled itself in the sun, the sun produces and enormous amount of anti-matter. It makes sense that if the Destiny were to refuel itself in the atmosphere of a star it would collect the most powerful fuel in that environment: anti-matter. Theoretically an anti-matter fueled fusion reactor would be ten times as powerful as a conventional reactor. The type of power core Destiny uses could be a technology the Ancients lost during their history and the advantages of a reactor that powerful capable of infinitely refueling itself could be used to create ships that could match or exceed the power and capabilities of Ori ships or even Atlantis.

No the sun doesn't make antimatter. Also, antimatter has nothing to do with fusion at all.

You're also talking about a technology we've seen refueled twice already in 1/2 a season because ~80 people? were on the ship v.s. a ZPM which powered a shield the size of a city for over 3,000 years. Sure you can refill it, but I'm guessing ZPMs weren't hard for the Ancients to make considering they were used as a primary means of power generation for anything of size.

[Lantien84]

Stars do produce anti-matter.http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0903rhessi.html
Through out SGA it has always been implied that ZPMs were difficult and dangerous to make and no one in three galaxies has any idea how to make more.

[Quadhelix]

Theoretically an anti-matter fueled fusion reactor would be ten times as powerful as a conventional reactor. If it used antimatter as fuel, it wouldn't be a Fusion Reactor, it would be an Annihilation Reactor. Fusion is when you combine two atoms to get a heavier atom; this is not what you do with matter and antimatter. Instead, when matter comes into contact with antimatter, they mutually annihilate, resulting in the full release of their rest energy.




Stars do produce anti-matter.http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0903rhessi.html Unfortunately, what this article tells us is that, unless there is a solar flare in progress and unless the Destiny flies through that solar flare, there will not be any anti-matter for the Destiny to collect.

At all other times, any antimatter created in the star would be destroyed as soon as it was created.




Through out SGA it has always been implied that ZPMs were difficult and dangerous to make.Not really. In fact, it is only the SGC that has had trouble with making ZPMs. For example, the Asurans had "more than enough" ZPMs to meet their needs.

[Lantien84]

My bad. The reactors would be annhilation reactors not fusion, but regarding ZPMs, who knows how many the Asurans had or how long it took to make them.

[Quadhelix]

regarding ZPMs, who knows how many the Asurans had or how long it took to make them.
How many? "Many" ("Progeny" (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/transcripts/305.shtml)) and "More than enough to suit our needs" (Ibid).

How quickly can they make new ones? Faster than they use the old ones.

[Sqrl]

Stars do produce anti-matter.http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0903rhessi.html
Through out SGA it has always been implied that ZPMs were difficult and dangerous to make and no one in three galaxies has any idea how to make more.

Yeah, I think Quadhelix has this one right.

Anti-matter annihilates matter when they come in contact with one another, so any antimatter produced in a solar flare is destroyed in less than the blink of an eye. Additionally storing anti-matter would require heavily shielded and power-hungry containment vessel to prevent it from contacting any matter and annihilating itself before the reactor was ready to utilize it.

As for ZPMs, we already know that the ancients abandoned fusion power generation in favor of ZPMs, so they are definitely a better power source. With that said I think the idea that the Lucian alliance is interested in ancient fusion technology makes a fair bit of sense by itself, especially the parts on how to make the ship survive scooping up fuel from a star. So your basic idea still works, just a bit different on what they are after is all.

Finally, if you consider how quickly Atlantis uses a ZPM for takeoff/landing, using shields, hyper-drive, etc...and compare it to the carefree way the Asurans use those features it definitely indicates that they can make them fairly readily. With that said, it's obvious that Atlantis and Earth have yet to reproduce that feat so its not just a simple matter by any stretch. But we know it can be done because both the Ancients and the Asurans practically had ZPM pez dispensers with how many they left laying about the place.

[thekillman]

the destiny probably has fusion reactors. since they're not clearly visible, it must be some shield-enforced fusion.

[mirdin1992]

Maybe the Destiny uses a matter Annihilation Reactor (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=jjj&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=quantum+singularity+reactor&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=quantum+sin&gs_rfai=) that seems so popular in other sci-fi shows like the Minbari quantum singularity or Romulan ship core.

P.S. Reactors that I have seen in sci-fi:

Chemical engine(petrolium)
Solar power
Nuclear fission(today's nuclear reactors)
Fusion reactor
Cold fusion(Lynea's cold fusion plant yes a real plant I would imagine that would make the eco-freaks happy:D)
Matter/Antimatter reactor(not seen on the show)
Quantum singularity reactor(not seen in the show)
Naquadah reactor(yes. it defies the laws of physics)
Naquadriah reactor(instability increases with the energy drawn from it)
Neutrino_ion generator(Asgard)
Hyperspace drain
Z.P.M.
Arcturus reactor(the power of the universe at you finger tips)

[Crazy Tom]

Sorry to put a damper on things, but calculations on the yield of naqudah actually give value greater than annihilation, making Amat reactors both more dangerous, and less powerful than naqudah reactors.

[Lantien84]

Okay then. Maybe Destiny doesn't use antimatter, but then why would it need to refuel itself in a star when it could have just scooped up fuel in a gas giant? Plus I doubt the Ancients used ZPMs to power everything, its more likely they used some sort of fusion or naquada reactors for most technology and ZPMs for power hungry things like city ships, defense stations, super-grids, and war ships. Anyway my main point was that Destiny's power source and its refueling ability makes it very valuable and powerful. If applied to Earth or Lucien Alliance ships it could boost their power generating abilities. That's my thinking as to why the Lucien Alliance wants the ship so badly.

[Control_Chair]

Okay then. Maybe Destiny doesn't use antimatter, but then why would it need to refuel itself in a star when it could have just scooped up fuel in a gas giant? Plus I doubt the Ancients used ZPMs to power everything, its more likely they used some sort of fusion or naquada reactors for most technology and ZPMs for power hungry things like city ships, defense stations, super-grids, and war ships. Anyway my main point was that Destiny's power source and its refueling ability makes it very valuable and powerful.

I think DHD are powered by some sort of cold fusion reactor core. I suppose that when harvesting hydrogen fuel from a gas giant the hydrogen then has to be heated and compressed to reach the super hot temperatures needed for fusion to occur, harvesting hydrogen directly from the upper atmosphere of a star negates this problem somewhat. It depends on what type of fusion Destiny uses, (I’ll admit I am no physicist and other people could probably do a better job explaining this but I’ll have a go anyway).

The main type of fusion that goes on in the sun is the Proton-Proton chain, (better explained in the link below better than I could ever do ;) )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction#The_pp_I_branch

Now the most difficult stage in the Proton-Proton chain is the initial reaction to form deuterium, but if Destiny primarily harvests deuterium or even helium 3 from the atmosphere of a star (which are both quite rare and difficult to extract outside of stellar atmospheres) then fusion can take place in the ships rectors at lower temperatures than the core of the sun.


If applied to Earth or Lucien Alliance ships it could boost their power generating abilities. That's my thinking as to why the Lucien Alliance wants the ship so badly.

Probably, but that begs the question how do they know about Destiny and its power systems???

[Quadhelix]

Okay then. Maybe Destiny doesn't use antimatter, but then why would it need to refuel itself in a star when it could have just scooped up fuel in a gas giant? Well, we don't really know what the Destiny is collecting in the star. For all we know, it collects energy directly from the heat of the star and then stores that energy in capacitors, or something along those lines.

[mirdin1992]

I GOT IT!!!:jack_new_anime05:

STELLAR DUST MI..... no I'm wrong their tribbles....SOLAR TRIBBLES!!!

It makes so much sense...we are all made of tribble dust...:eek:

[mickhhh]

Well, we don't really know what the Destiny is collecting in the star. For all we know, it collects energy directly from the heat of the star and then stores that energy in capacitors, or something along those lines.

thats just what i thought. maybe those scooping looking things we see pop out when it going ino a star are like super conductors like stargates.

[thekillman]

and how would sticking superconductors into a star collect energy????


they look like scoops, and appear to have holes. i'd say they directly scoop up hot fuel and divert it to their Fusion reactors. no need to heat up the fuel, instead, it probably has to be cooled first.

[mickhhh]

and how would sticking superconductors into a star collect energy????


they look like scoops, and appear to have holes. i'd say they directly scoop up hot fuel and divert it to their Fusion reactors. no need to heat up the fuel, instead, it probably has to be cooled first.

they can take huge amounts of energy from a black hole and an misty atmosphaere so why not a star? i dont pretend to understant it but the writers seem to have something going on about them been super conductors.

it was said the Destiny could once diel earth so how could it do this with fusion. fusion power would not be powerful enough. even if it held 10,000 metric tons of hydrogen this would not be enough. ZPMs cant do it so fusion reactors dont stant a chance

[thekillman]

they can take huge amounts of energy from a black hole and an misty atmosphaere so why not a star? i dont pretend to understant it but the writers seem to have something going on about them been super conductors.

a gate is much more than a superconductor alone.


it was said the Destiny could once diel earth so how could it do this with fusion. fusion power would not be powerful enough. even if it held 10,000 metric tons of hydrogen this would not be enough. ZPMs cant do it so fusion reactors dont stant a chance

fusion is extremely powerful. besides, they're the ancients. some sort of superdense plasma might generate the energy they need. and Capacitors, people, Capacitors

[Quadhelix]

and how would sticking superconductors into a star collect energy???? I would imagine that the process is far more complicated than "sticking superconductors into a star."



they look like scoops, and appear to have holes. And DHD's look like giant mushrooms, but that does not make them especially tasty.



i'd say they directly scoop up hot fuel and divert it to their Fusion reactors. no need to heat up the fuel, instead, it probably has to be cooled first. It's possible, but nothing in the show directly supports this.

One thing to note is that, in Earth, the could apparently harness energy quickly enough to power a dial back to Earth (even if it would have destroyed the ship).

[thekillman]

maybe it's a combo of directly harnessing power and scooping up fuel? i don't see how the Destiny could harness the power of a star all the time

[mickhhh]

a gate is much more than a superconductor alone.



fusion is extremely powerful. besides, they're the ancients. some sort of superdense plasma might generate the energy they need. and Capacitors, people, Capacitors

but there is still superconductor tech in it.
fusion is powerful but the amount of hydrogen than could have been scooped up would not be aspowerful as as a ZPM.

[apollo22]

the destiny dis not harness anything form the gas giant and here is why. if you had listened to the word in the episode, the destiny used the gas giant as an aero-braking maneuver to slow down and get its trajectory lined up with the sun because when it dropped out of ftl, it wasnt lined up with the sun.

this is further substantiated in the epi "earth" when the purposely drain the power to get it to jump to another sun to refuel in an attempt to dial home. in this episode they never enter a gas giant first.

[Quadhelix]

maybe it's a combo of directly harnessing power and scooping up fuel? Scooping up fuel for what?

If you mean for the fusion reactor, I got the impression from your previous post that the Destiny would be using the fuel as quickly as it was collected, and then storing the energy in capacitors.



don't see how the Destiny could harness the power of a star all the time Like you said: the Destiny collects energy while in the star at a rate many times the ship's power needs. All of the energy that the ship doesn't use gets stored in capacitors (or something along those lines) for use when it is needed.

[Mister Oragahn]

Just posting some links.

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/60523-What-powers-the-destiny.
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/70338-Powering-the-Destiny
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73011-Would-a-single-ZPM-be-able-to-dial-Destiny/page4
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/68851-Ancient-power-problem (about Ancient power technology, not specifically about Destiny)

[thekillman]

i'm aware of those, yes.


i still get pride form being the first to suggest fusion reactors.

anyway,

as i said, to explain it all, the best would simply be a combo: when near the sun, it uses the energy directly (perhaps because the shield generates the energy?) while also draining plasma for superhigh density fusion. so dense, the fusion reactor would happen VERY fast, generating immense energy. in the Gas Giant, it might've sucked up hydrogen and stored it as big spheres or blocks of metallic hydrogen.


what i meant by harnessing the power of a star all the time: IN a star it does that. but outside, it only need so much power. since firing the weapons drained the powersource so fast, it doesn't harness such output outside one.


do capacitors have the capacity to store so much energy?

[AdamTM]

What bothers me about the destinys refueling procedure is the ship dipping into the sun itself.

I mean you need humongous amounts of power to keep the heat out through the shields, the radiation, and parts of the hull are destroyed so the shields need to be stronger there.

So the destiny flies into the star, with some kind of rest-energy in the shields to refuel, it dips in, scoops some of the hydrogen up and leaves, all that time the generator actually needs to produce energy for the shields.

As the destiny leaves and is done refueling it still needs to generate humongous amounts of power to leave the corona (gravitational pull should be imense, tidal forces pulling at the hull, heat, radiation, the shield needs to compensate for all that)

I just dont see how this is any fuel-efficient. I could imagine that up to 1/5th of the fuel absorbed would be used to just keep the Destiny from blowing up.

Now given the fact that the Destiny has only a 70% working capacity makes it even worse.

Also a lot of people underestimate the power of AM annihilation compared to Fusion reactors or Fission.

Fusion generates 1000x more energy than Fission per particle. AM generators convert all the energy from matter to energy providing 1000x energy than FUSION/particle, they are the most efficient generator you can have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities

Im not clear on Naquadah and Naquadriah generators, but lets take a ZPM which doesnt use matter at all but is basically a vacuum-energy pump. Vacuum energy is so potent a spoonful of space would produce more energy than earth can put out in a year by a longshot.

ZPMs should be the non-plus ultra generator you can ever have. The Fusion reactor on the Destiny should be underpowered by a factor of at least 1000x to a ZPM or a single Naquadah generator.

There might be ways to expand the yield of energy (McKay generator drawing power from other universes) but a ZPM or single Naquadah generator should be absolutely sufficient to dial earth.

Of course the writers might come up with some other weird explenation, like the Destiny is changing the physical properties of scooped up gas with a higgs-field resulting in way higher yields in a fusion-reactor. But that just seems very unlikely.

[ColdZero]

Also a lot of people underestimate the power of AM annihilation compared to Fusion reactors or Fission.

Fusion generates 1000x more energy than Fission per particle. AM generators convert all the energy from matter to energy providing 1000x energy than FUSION/particle, they are the most efficient generator you can have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities


Yes but you have to collect that antimatter or somehow create it. Then once you have it you have to store it. Since antimatter will annihilate as soon as it comes in contact with normal matter you have to contain it in a magnetic field. The only way to do that would be to contain antimatter that has a charge. Say we're dealing with hydrogen, you'd only be able to collect and contain hydrogen ions.

Somebody posted a link about solar flares and antimatter previously, even if we assumed Destiny was doing something even remotely like that, its sucking in a lot of gas through those intakes. Thats a lot of antimatter that's just sitting around not reacting with anything else around it, which doesn't really happen.

If they were generating the antimatter, there's no real reason to go to a star to collect anything, you're passing plenty of interstellar hydrogen as you're flying around at >c.

The best we can assume is that Destiny uses the hydrogen in the stars somehow, probably through fusion to power its systems.

[thekillman]

naquahdah is better than AMAT.

also, my dual-function explanation shows how the Destiny can do what it does:

-it collects power directly from the star, probably via the shield itself. the shield does not collapse as it's designed much like Atlantis' shield (as long as there is sufficient power, the shield is impenetrable) and drains power from the star. thus, the closer it gets, the more power it generates, and the stronger the shield becomes. meanwhile, to make any significant refuel, the Destiny scoops up plasma to generate more energy, and that way refuels. it's also why the Destiny outside a star is much weaker. also, it's shield isn't impenetrable for weaponsfire, as we're dealing with uniform pressure and heat, not localised high-energy. besides, the shield power cycle won't apply, as the plasma bolt hits, the shield then becomes stronger, but there's no second plasma bolt. then, the effect wears off, the next bolt hits, etc etc etc. a star applies constant pressure and heat and thus constantly keeps the shield strong.

[Quadhelix]

as i said, to explain it all, the best would simply be a combo: when near the sun, it uses the energy directly (perhaps because the shield generates the energy?) while also draining plasma for superhigh density fusion. so dense, the fusion reactor would happen VERY fast, generating immense energy. in the Gas Giant, it might've sucked up hydrogen and stored it as big spheres or blocks of metallic hydrogen. Question: what are the fusion reactors doing while the Destiny isn't in a star?




do capacitors have the capacity to store so much energy?
Griffiths, David. Introduction to Electrodynamics. 3rd edition.
"In the second edition I claimed you would need a forklift to carry a 1 F capacitor. This is no longer the case--you can now buy a 1 F capacitor that fits comfortably in a soup spoon" (Pg 104).

The third edition came out in 1999; the second edition came out in 1989.

[Mister Oragahn]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on. If she was looking for AM she'd stay around flares, not dip into the photosphere, and there are other places to get AM. Plus AM is a risky "fuel", and unless you have found a way to really exploit all possible particles that are generated by matter annihilation, there's an enormous amount of waste with AM.
Fusion, no matter what, can completely shut down since it requires immense energies to be allowed first, and thus there can't be any real risk with fusion fuel (very light gases) and there's certainly no overload to fear (yeah, that point about the terraforming colony's overloading fusion reactor tied to the atmospheric processor in in ALIENS didn't make much sense).
What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.
See this post (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73011-Would-a-single-ZPM-be-able-to-dial-Destiny?p=11281826&viewfull=1#post11281826).

The biggest issue is why go into a star when there are better ways to gather fuel from gas giants. It's not even a question of having proper star charts or not because Destiny has literally chosen to dive into a star instead of sucking up gases from a gas giant, which it skimmed.

The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.
So we can safely return to the point of gathering hydrogen, especially since there's never been any better fuel for fusion.
Even Deuterium-Tritium fusion is not as good - check the energy density tables for example (1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities)), assuming 100% efficiencies, D-T fusion is twice less powerful.
The other problem with using gas giants' gases is that if we go by the limits we are experiencing today, the reactor might need to be bigger to start consuming the fuel in question (2 (http://crowlspace.com/?p=112)). If Destiny picked Helium-3 (3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3)) from a gas giant, at best by mixing it with heavy hydrogen it could obtain 591,600,000 MJ/kilogram. Sounds high, close enough to top H fusion, but notice that you do need heavy hydrogen. You'd either have to find a planet with large quantities of water and logically heavy water (4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water)). Although much less dangerous than tapping stars, it's also terribly time consuming and oxygen would have to be filtered or consumed first.
If it's filtered and stored, this would however be a plus for life support, but Destiny apparently wasn't really meant to work with a permanent crew. The ship could also replenish her water storage doing so.
With roughly 35 mg (3.5 e-5 kg) of deuterium per liter of water (which itself is roughly 1 kg/L), or 0.003,5%/L. Inversely, to obtain 1 kg of deuterium that way, you'd need at least to collect 28,571.43 liters of water. More than 28 tonnes. And then there's the question of the efficiency of power generation.
Harvesting deuterium from rare dusty cloud formations surrounding some stars would also prove not reliable enough (5 (http://news.softpedia.com/news/039-Hidden-039-Milky-Way-Deuterium-Found-32904.shtml)), in comparison to the abundance of stars.
Quite clearly, if your ship is powerful and tough enough to take a dip into a star, there's no question as to which option is the quickest.

Now, using Helium-3 is much more interesting. Fusing Helium-3 would provide, at a 100% efficiency, 206 e6 MJ/kg. It's not so far from perfect hydrogen fusion. Density of helium may be low, but time is not a constraint much in such conditions, for the gain at hand, and there's no question about flying right into a giant fusion oven.
I find it odd to consider that the Destiny's reactor, if it were fusion based, couldn't handle some variety in its mileage, really.
Heck, a planet like Uranus has an atmosphere which "is composed of about 83 percent hydrogen, 15 percent helium, 2 percent methane, and tiny amounts of ethane and other gases. The atmospheric pressure beneath the methane cloud layer is about 19 pounds per square inch (130 kilopascals), or about 1.3 times the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Earth. Atmospheric pressure is the pressure exerted by the gases of a planet's atmosphere due to their weight," (6 (http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/uranus_worldbook.html)).

So we fall back to the point that there could be an advantage in tapping a star because of its ongoing fusion reactions. It's very puzzling and I don't think it makes much sense.

On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

EDIT: typos.

[mirdin1992]

Mr.O Aren't stars a lot more numerous than gas giants(may or may not be true) but they are certainly more visible. When you look in the night sky you see them and can assume they exist. Planets not so much.

Me? I'll go with the 'diving into the sun is cool' thinking that was probably the main reason the writers did it.:D

[colbmista]

i dont get why the military people who went to the destiny didnt grab one or 2 naq generaters when they went runnin through the gate... they grabbed other tech liek the comm stones....

[AdamTM]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on. If she was looking for AM she'd stay around flares, not dip into the photosphere, and there are other places to get AM. Plus AM is a risky "fuel", and unless you have found a way to really exploit all possible particles that are generated by matter annihilation, there's an enormous amount of waste with AM.
Fusion, no matter what, can completely shut down since it requires immense energies to be allowed first, and thus there can't be any real risk with fusion fuel (very light gases) and there's certainly no overload to fear (yeah, that point about the terraforming colony's overloading fusion reactor tied to the atmospheric processor in in ALIENS didn't make much sense).
What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.
See this post (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73011-Would-a-single-ZPM-be-able-to-dial-Destiny?p=11281826&viewfull=1#post11281826).

The biggest issue is why go into a star when there are better ways to gather fuel from gas giants. It's not even a question of having proper star charts or not because Destiny has literally chosen to dive into a star instead of sucking up gases from a gas giant, which it skimmed.

The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.
So we can safely return to the point of gathering hydrogen, especially since there's never been any better fuel for fusion.
Even Deuterium-Tritium fusion is not as good - check the energy density tables for example (1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities)), assuming 100% efficiencies, D-T fusion is twice less powerful.
The other problem with using gas giants' gases is that if we go by the limits we are experiencing today, the reactor might need to be bigger to start consuming the fuel in question (2 (http://crowlspace.com/?p=112)). If Destiny picked Helium-3 (3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3) from a gas giant, at best by mixing it with heavy hydrogen it could obtain 591,600,000 MJ/kilogram. Sounds high, close enough to top H fusion, but notice that you do need heavy hydrogen. You'd either have to find a planet with large quantities of water and logically heavy water (4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water)). Although much less dangerous than tapping stars, it's also terribly time consuming and oxygen would have to be filtered or consumed first.
If it's filted and stored, this would however be a plus for life support, but Destiny apparently wasn't really meant to work with a permanent crew. The ship could also resplenish her water storage doing so.
With roughly 35 mg (3.5 e-5 kg) of deuterium per litre of water (which itself is roughly 1 kg/L), or 0.003,5%/L. Inversely, to obtain 1 kg of deuterium that way, you'd need at least to collect 28,571.43 liters of water. More than 28 tonnes. And then there's the question of the efficiency of power generation.
Harvesting deuterium from rare dusty cloud formations surrounding some stars would also prove not reliable enough (5 (http://news.softpedia.com/news/039-Hidden-039-Milky-Way-Deuterium-Found-32904.shtml)), in comparison to the abundance of stars.
Quite clearly, if your ship is powerful and tough enough to take a dip into a star, there's no question as to which option is the quickest.

Now, using Helium-3 is much more interesting. Fusing Helium-3 would provide, at a 100% efficiency, 206 e6 MJ/kg. It's not so far from perfect hydrogen fusion. Density of helium may be low, but time is not a constraint much in such conditions, for the gain at hand, and there's no question about flying right into a giant fusion oven.
I find it odd to consider that the Destiny's reactor, if it were fusion based, couldn't handle some variety in its mileage, really.
Heck, a planet like Uranus has an atmosphere which "is composed of about 83 percent hydrogen, 15 percent helium, 2 percent methane, and tiny amounts of ethane and other gases. The atmospheric pressure beneath the methane cloud layer is about 19 pounds per square inch (130 kilopascals), or about 1.3 times the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Earth. Atmospheric pressure is the pressure exerted by the gases of a planet's atmosphere due to their weight," (6 (http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/uranus_worldbook.html)).

So we fall back to the point that there could be an advantage in tapping a star because of its ongoing fusion reactions. It's very puzzling and I don't think it makes much sense.

On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

I couldn't agree more. Fusion is not a viable way to power this kind of technology.
Its energy inefficient to refuel like this, also incredibly silly.

Its like driving a car through a burning petrol-station trying to scoop up the not-yet burned fuel while trying to not burn to a crisp.

The proposal that the shields somehow absorb energy and then use this energy to power themselves would border on a perpetuum mobile. That shield would be inpenetrable by default, you would just need to get it going once and then derive power from weapon-fire/atmospheric pressure/lava/etc to keep it up. One would wonder why Atlantis's siege-shield isnt like this.

Imo, either the writers just didnt do the research and picked a generation-method from a SF-energy-generator-list without thinking, or the explenation will come later on as to how the ship generates enough power.

[Quadhelix]

Fusion generates 1000x more energy than Fission per particle. This contradicts the source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities) that you gave: fusion provides only about eight times as much energy per kilogram than fission (at least in bombs or fast breeder reactors). However, it is worth noting that the particles used in fission (U-238 atoms) are about 100 times as massive as the particles used in fusion. Therefore, you actually get far less energy per particle from fusion.



AM generators convert all the energy from matter to energy providing 1000x energy than FUSION/particle, they are the most efficient generator you can have.Note: matter-antimatter reactors do not convert anything into energy. The energy is already there, stored in the mass of the material - this is call "rest energy." All that matter-antimatter reactors do is convert rest energy into kinetic energy and light.




I couldn't agree more. Fusion is not a viable way to power this kind of technology.
Its energy inefficient to refuel like this, also incredibly silly.

Its like driving a car through a burning petrol-station trying to scoop up the not-yet burned fuel while trying to not burn to a crisp. Point of fact: the "burning" hydrogen is in the core of the star. The Destiny never approaches that.

It, instead, travels through the untouched hydrogen in the upper levels of the star.


Therefore, it is more like going to a petrol station during a very hot summer day, rather than through a burning station.



The proposal that the shields somehow absorb energy and then use this energy to power themselves would border on a perpetuum mobile. That shield would be inpenetrable by default, you would just need to get it going once and then derive power from weapon-fire/atmospheric pressure/lava/etc to keep it up. One would wonder why Atlantis's siege-shield isnt like this.
We have already seen such a shield in "Beachhead."

Moreover, such a shield would not, in fact, be immune to weaponry. Why? Because the shield would not be able to reinforce itself quickly enough to prevent damage: if it is being hit by a weapon blast right now, it is of no use if the shield is stronger ten seconds from now. Remember, in order for this shield to be effective in combat, it has to absorb the weapon blast and then use that energy to reinforce itself before the weapon blast finishes hitting it - this is likely beyond the shield's capability.

[AdamTM]

This contradicts the source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities) that you gave: fusion provides only about eight times as much energy per kilogram than fission (at least in bombs or fast breeder reactors). However, it is worth noting that the particles used in fission (U-238 atoms) are about 100 times as massive as the particles used in fusion. Therefore, you actually get far less energy per particle from fusion.


Note: matter-antimatter reactors do not convert anything into energy. The energy is already there, stored in the mass of the material - this is call "rest energy." All that matter-antimatter reactors do is convert rest energy into kinetic energy and light.



Point of fact: the "burning" hydrogen is in the core of the star. The Destiny never approaches that.

It, instead, travels through the untouched hydrogen in the upper levels of the star.


Therefore, it is more like going to a petrol station during a very hot summer day, rather than through a burning station.



We have already seen such a shield in "Beachhead."

Moreover, such a shield would not, in fact, be immune to weaponry. Why? Because the shield would not be able to reinforce itself quickly enough to prevent damage: if it is being hit by a weapon blast right now, it is of no use if the shield is stronger ten seconds from now. Remember, in order for this shield to be effective in combat, it has to absorb the weapon blast and then use that energy to reinforce itself before the weapon blast finishes hitting it - this is likely beyond the shield's capability.

a. yes the source says the energy-density is 8 times higher, my bad

b. i know AM generators dont "convert" i used the term loosely to describe it makes energy from mass.

c. ok, burning not right as an analogy then, but your hot sunny day doesnt cut it either. Except if the hot sunny day is made out of fuel that you need to dip into. How about boiling fuel then, just under its ignition-temp being sucked into the fire right next to it? Its still silly.

d. it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS
If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient.

[thekillman]

it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS
If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient.

the sun itself reinforces the shield. a weapon would reinforce the shield after the hit, thus making the re-inforcement useless.

[AdamTM]

the sun itself reinforces the shield. a weapon would reinforce the shield after the hit, thus making the re-inforcement useless.

This doesnt make any sense.
The sun needs to reinforce the shield before it would come in contact with the shield.

[Quadhelix]

c. ok, burning not right as an analogy then, but your hot sunny day doesnt cut it either. Except if the hot sunny day is made out of fuel that you need to dip into. How about boiling fuel then, just under its ignition-temp being sucked into the fire right next to it? Its still silly. "Silly" doesn't mean that there are any alternatives. If the Destiny were not to refuel in stars, how else could it refuel?

First, you have to consider the fact that it probably cannot refuel in FTL. This is because doing so would require projecting a magnetic field ahead of the ship. Magnetic fields are "carried" by photons, which travel at the speed of light. However, the ship is traveling faster than light.

It could, of course, gather fusion fuel from gas giants, but this shares a number of problems with "star diving."




d. it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS That would be great for subsequent shots, but not the first shot. Also, that assumes that energy can flow from the shield to the ship - which might not be a valid assumption.




If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient. Again, how else is it going to refuel?

[mirdin1992]

On the shield thing I would imagine its a action/reaction kind of thing the lag between the shield draining the power and it using it is probably nonexistent or so small no one cares.

P.S. Who said that it could drain it I don't know but, I don't think it can maintain itself only from the power hitting it and protect the ship itself, there must be energy loss or it would be impenetrable. Also I would guess it can drain certain types of energy better than others.

[thekillman]

This doesnt make any sense.
The sun needs to reinforce the shield before it would come in contact with the shield.

that's why the ship FLIES towards the sun, and doesn't drop out in the photosphere.

it starts at an AU distance. the solar wind is weak, the shield is sustained by the destiny's reactors. we get closer. the shield gets a weak boost from the sun. the closer we get, the stronger the boost becomes. the power cycle (sun hits shield -> shield gets power-> shield is sustained->sun hits shield->shield gets power)
ensures that the shield stays on at all times. we know [electricity->shield generator->shield->force]. therefore, the alternative is possible. [force (hits)-> shield->shieldgenerator (generates)-> electricity].

see it as a probe. the probe has solar panels. the solar panels power the shield. the shield blocks the radiation and pressure. the solar panels, for the sake of clarity, do not break down from material problems. there's a battery for the shield too.

the probe is far from the sun. the battery maintains the shield. we get closer. more power from the solar panels. the panels power the shield. we get closer and closer. more power from the panels, a stronger shield, more pressure on the shield.

the net gain for destiny comes from the actual refueling by scooping up plasma.



also, when in the sun, the energy generated by the shield can be put into the gate. however, we got confirmation from Earth that when you drain too much, the shield gets weaker and can even collapse.


analogous is.... i don't know. the fuel station is a bad one. at best, i can say, analogous is needing fuel that has to be at several thousand degrees before you can burn it. instead of having to manually heat it, the sun already has it hot. thrown it in fusion reactors with the very same shield as the one covering Destiny, and well, you have easy fuel. when in the sun, the Destiny refills it's generators. i think that some of us are right: supercapacitors are powered by the fusion reactors. as the Destiny leaves the star, the fusion reactors keep burning, and when they're depleted, the remaining stuff is cooled down, the heat used for power, and finally the waste is pumped to the engines as propellant.

also, why refuel in stars? no idea. but stars are easy to find. planets with the right composition are not. one wrong pick and the ship is dead in the water. also, the feedback system makes solar refuel as easy as dipping into a gas giant.


as to why the destiny isn't invincible: a bolt (a beam WOULD be largely ineffective) hits. as the bolt has hit the shield, (some) of the energy is returned. then, the shield is stonger. then, it weakens, and then, the next bolt hits.

also, the feedback is DIRECT, and other types of weapons would have full effect, since it's designed for plasma, not, say, particle beams.

[Mike.]

We don't know if Destiny uses fusion reactors. It was never specifically said on the show. Just "solar powered". If this is the case it seems very rudimentary, old, not worthy of the Ancients; the gas giant it passed through should have been enough to refuel. For a classic fusion reaction the fuel does not really need to be obtained already heated, we can achieve the required temperatures in our lame "real" experiments. Surely Destiny can do that by itself if it can support such powerful shields.

It has to use some sort of direct energy drain technology (that takes energy out of any medium and stores it for later use (like how naquadah generators don't need steam and huge spinning turbines to run - no, fission does not release neatly ordered electrons, but large amounts of heat and all kinds of radiation - also how stargates can be powered by pretty much anything (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73150-Questions-about-the-gate?p=11294117&viewfull=1#post11294117), many times without clear contact or large specialized mechanisms). Those "scoops" expose some sort of superconductors (not as we know them) that tap the raw energy of a complete sun. There's obviously a range limit so that's why it needs to get so close.

This fits with the other power generation technologies we've seen on the show and what the Ancients tend to build. They've always done this - obtain power from another energetic medium.
Going chronologically:
phase 1: directly draining power from a highly energetic medium: a sun
phase 2: getting zero point energy from an artificially created pocket of space (enclosed in a ZPM) until entropy reaches maximum
phase 3: getting zero point energy from our own universe (project Arcturus) - at this point the energy density is the lowest.

[Mister Oragahn]

that's why the ship FLIES towards the sun, and doesn't drop out in the photosphere.

it starts at an AU distance. the solar wind is weak, the shield is sustained by the destiny's reactors. we get closer. the shield gets a weak boost from the sun. the closer we get, the stronger the boost becomes. the power cycle (sun hits shield -> shield gets power-> shield is sustained->sun hits shield->shield gets power)
ensures that the shield stays on at all times. we know [electricity->shield generator->shield->force]. therefore, the alternative is possible. [force (hits)-> shield->shieldgenerator (generates)-> electricity].

I doubt it. First, no shield technology used by the Alterans/Lantians proved to absorb anything for later use.
The limiting factors in a shield that would absorb energy would be:

- The maximum intensity the shield can manage.
- The maximum power flux the shield generators can manage.
- The capacitors themselves. They better allow a great margin. Obviously they'd be designed to be greater in flux capacity than the shield projector. The capacitors' maximum charge will also be an important factor.
- Loss of energy at all points.

But again I didn't see any evidence that the Alterans had any vested interest in such technology. They were more classical in their shielding tech. As long as there was power to feed the shield generator, the shield was up.

You also greatly overestimate the power that the shield could absorb; the ship will use more power to control its approach, entry, and then departure from the star, than what the exposed side of its shields could absorb. See, even at the surface of a star with an intensity of 0.6 Sol's, you'd get 1.2054 e7 W/m², while the sun itself has an intensity of 2.009 e7 W/m².
A 1 km² square would have a surface of e6 m². That would bring the maximum theoretical power that hits the whole exposed side of the shield, if it were that square and that large, in the e12~13 W range.
Even if the shields absorbed 100% of all energy emitted over all possible wavelengths, you'd get at best a couple of kilotons per second, considering the likely size of Destiny (length of less than a kilometer) and the fact that it's rather streamlined for most of its structure.
Technically, many races in Stargate would be capable of driving their ship into a star like ours if the only problem was radiation (the intensity of blue giants is tens of thousands times greater, so that's a different kind of fish though).
Really, the radiations are the lesser problem here. Escaping gravity is the main problem, and perhaps maintaining a course through hot plasma currents may be problematic notably with some spots of strong magnetism, and that's all. The pressure will be totally negligible. Globally, mere motion towards or away from the star will require power levels much greater than anything the Destiny could absorb by radiation even if it skimmed Sol's photosphere, in order to accelerate or decelerate in order to approach and leave a star at the observed speeds.
It will also be worse once the ship departs because it will be transporting fuel.


see it as a probe. the probe has solar panels. the solar panels power the shield. the shield blocks the radiation and pressure. the solar panels, for the sake of clarity, do not break down from material problems. there's a battery for the shield too.
the probe is far from the sun. the battery maintains the shield. we get closer. more power from the solar panels. the panels power the shield. we get closer and closer. more power from the panels, a stronger shield, more pressure on the shield.

If the shield blocks radiations that well, it will prevent solar panels from ever working, even panels gathering 100% of the energy and turning it into electricity.
Of course most shields are designed intelligently, since they let daylight levels pass through but would start to filter at much greater levels.


the net gain for destiny comes from the actual refueling by scooping up plasma.

Hydrogen under a plasma state will still represent an absurdly insignificant amount of energy per cubic meter in comparison to what it could provide once fused.
The density of the hydrogen and helium mixture in the solar photosphere is not particularly high either, roughly a hundredth of that of air at sea level: at 2 e-4 kg/m³, or 2 e-1 g/m³.
Hydrogen represents on the average 72% of the mass and helium 26%. For the sake of it, let's pretend that it's all hydrogen here, not even at 98%, but at at 100%.
Let's even simplify this and say that the mass of atoms (std molecular weight) is 1g/mol instead of 1.00794g/mol.
In the photosphere that means we get 2 e-1 moles per cubic meter.
The photosphere is roughly 5800 K hot.
Let's pretend now that the Destiny drives plasma through some conduits to a place where it's cooled down to near 0° C, so that's a decrease of 5526.85 K.
Since it will still remain a gas at such temperatures, we can use the specific heat only. Let's say it doesn't change and remains 28.836 J/mol/K.

E = 31,874.5 J/m³.
A bit less than 32 KJ/m³. Nothing to brag about, really.
Technically to obtain at least one kiloton worth of energy, assuming perfect drain, it will need to pump 130,750,000 cubic meters of Sol's photosphere.
That's also a total of 26,150 kg.
It would have to drain more than 26 thousand tonnes of this same stuff, assuming the same density and temperature numbers, to get one megaton of heat energy via that plasma.


also, why refuel in stars? no idea. but stars are easy to find. planets with the right composition are not. one wrong pick and the ship is dead in the water. also, the feedback system makes solar refuel as easy as dipping into a gas giant.

Gas giants would have very little reasons to be abnormally composed, and there are very few reasons why gas giants would be hard to find. If anything, considering how it's easier to find gases than solid matter in space, it would be a sure bet to count on most systems to have at least one gas giant. And of course, anytime the Destiny would come to such a system, it would have no reason to snob the gas giant like we've seen her do.

However, there is one thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't: a huge mass. While I'm obviously not pretending that the Destiny would eat a whole portion of a star, there's nonetheless something else to look at here: gravity.
So, could Destiny use fusion to maintain an inner and more powerful singularity, and use the star's gravity to interact with said artificial singularity to restrengthen it, somehow?

Besides, knowing how there is a relation between subspace and gravity (hyperdrives, flying a ship through a given layer of subspace, are greatly affected by gravitational fields as strong as those find close to some black holes), it could be possible that the value of a star in that case is that it may also concentrate large amounts of "subspace power".
Anything considerably lighter than a star wouldn't work: even the most miserable Goa'uld ship can hyperspace through planets, and gas giants aren't exceptionally more massive than solid planets when you look at the difference between a gas giant and a star. Sol, for example, represents 99.8% of the entire system's estimated mass. That's huge.

So what the Destiny finds in a star is not just a mixture of hydrogen and helium, but hot gases to tap (always a plus even if it's extremely minor) plus something related to the gravity of the star.

Complete sidenote: If what I suggest would be correct, we may consider the possibility that stargates orbiting black holes don't really get most of their energy by harnessing whatever evaporation (radiations) they could catch (via some unseen ethereal and gigantic "fish net" of some kind) but because such singularities are focus points of subspace energies.








[QUOTE=Mike.;11337401]We don't know if Destiny uses fusion reactors. It was never specifically said on the show. Just "solar powered". If this is the case it seems very rudimentary, old, not worthy of the Ancients; the gas giant it passed through should have been enough to refuel. For a classic fusion reaction the fuel does not really need to be obtained already heated, we can achieve the required temperatures in our lame "real" experiments. Surely Destiny can do that by itself if it can support such powerful shields.

It has to use some sort of direct energy drain technology (that takes energy out of any medium and stores it for later use (like how naquadah generators don't need steam and huge spinning turbines to run - no, fission does not release neatly ordered electrons, but large amounts of heat and all kinds of radiation - also how stargates can be powered by pretty much anything (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73150-Questions-about-the-gate?p=11294117&viewfull=1#post11294117), many times without clear contact or large specialized mechanisms). Those "scoops" expose some sort of superconductors (not as we know them) that tap the raw energy of a complete sun. There's obviously a range limit so that's why it needs to get so close.

This fits with the other power generation technologies we've seen on the show and what the Ancients tend to build. They've always done this - obtain power from another energetic medium.
Going chronologically:
phase 1: directly draining power from a highly energetic medium: a sun
phase 2: getting zero point energy from an artificially created pocket of space (enclosed in a ZPM) until entropy reaches maximum
phase 3: getting zero point energy from our own universe (project Arcturus) - at this point the energy density is the lowest.

Add somewhere there tapping naqahdah, naqahdria, geothermal energy from normal planets (aside from Icarus, they already used one to power a shield and a mobile plant to power Atlantis -as pointed to me, McKay spoke of an umbilical in that episode, but we didn't see any evidence of any physical connection so the umbilical could have easily been something akin to the link between a DHD and a stargate), possibly antimatter ("The Shrine"), crystal (as batteries), subspace, some form of cold fusion (Milky Way DHDs), lightning, etc.

[AdamTM]

I doubt it. First, no shield technology used by the Alterans/Lantians proved to absorb anything for later use.
The limiting factors in a shield that would absorb energy would be:
....snip.

This.

Basically Destiny needs more than just fusion, solar panels, thermal probes or anything to do with the stars direct energy-output.
The gravitation-explenation seems a bit far fetched though.

Its a general inconsistency, the Destiny is supposed to be pre-Atlantis tech, basically the oldest thing of the Ancients we ever found (millions of years old)
YET, in some aspects its technology surpasses Atlantis technology, which doesnt make any sense.

[colbmista]

what tech on destiny surpasses antlantis tech?

[AdamTM]

what tech on destiny surpasses antlantis tech?

Powering a ship this size without a ZPM that is able to fly into a star.
Why wouldn't the ancients still use this technology? ZPMs need to be manufactured, stars are aplenty.

(i assume here the Icarus Gate is as old as the destiny) Tapping into a planets core for power.
Why wouldn't for example Atlantis be able to do this to draw power, ZPMs would be optional, shields could be brought up and ran almost indefinitely.

Kino, never seen before device fitting in your palm that has an anti-gravity-engine. The smallest thing having AG drives we saw in SGA are i think drones.

FTL, must be vastly more efficient than Hyperdrive if it can be powered by any of the above low-tech suggestions like Fusion.
If it really is powered by some gravitational force and can recharge at gravitational fields, its even more impressive than a ZPM.

However there is of course the other side of the spectrum that some technology seems really underwhelming. Like for example the Control-Chair using an invasive technique for establishing connections to the brain. Or in general the "look" of the ship that doesn't seem like anything Ancient.

Sadly this is a speculative list, as we did not get any technobabble to explain the general technology in SGU yet.

[Mike.]

Powering a ship this size without a ZPM that is able to fly into a star.

Even a Ha'tak can do that. Close to a blue giant even (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blue_giant.jpg).



Why wouldn't the ancients still use this technology? ZPMs need to be manufactured, stars are aplenty.

It's impractical. Every time you need a recharge you'd need to find a sun. Not the best idea for a normally stationary city. Besides, the Ancients never had any trouble making ZPMs (the ships that used them are another issue). ZPMs are small, compact and very powerful.



(i assume here the Icarus Gate is as old as the destiny)

It's not. Milky Way gates are 2 gen technology, Pegasus - third. The SGU class ones are the first type the Ancients mass-produced.



Tapping into a planets core for power.
Why wouldn't for example Atlantis be able to do this to draw power, ZPMs would be optional, shields could be brought up and ran almost indefinitely.

They did that. Lantea had a facility at the bottom of the ocean (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_drilling_platform) that provided some secondary power in First Strike. In another episode (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/219.shtml) there was a city sitting on a caldera drawing power from it. What an explosion that was... ;) All in all they never provided power comparable to a ZPM.



Kino, never seen before device fitting in your palm that has an anti-gravity-engine. The smallest thing having AG drives we saw in SGA are i think drones.

I'll give you that. TBH the writers did have the kino concept in mind during Atlantis (read this on Mallozi's blog, some time ago) but for some reason they've never used it. Though you're also right on the drones - same tech, different implementation.



FTL, must be vastly more efficient than Hyperdrive if it can be powered by any of the above low-tech suggestions like Fusion.
If it really is powered by some gravitational force and can recharge at gravitational fields, its even more impressive than a ZPM.

We don't know how good it is. Or exactly how it's powered. After all, Destiny had been traveling for a really long time. Hyperspace has the advantage that it does not interact with normal space - just use a straight line. When Destiny is in FTL we can still see stars, it probably needs to plot a course around them, and other large objects.



However there is of course the other side of the spectrum that some technology seems really underwhelming. Like for example the Control-Chair using an invasive technique for establishing connections to the brain. Or in general the "look" of the ship that doesn't seem like anything Ancient.

It makes sense that it's more rudimentary since it's really old. But the look does match a bit - for example the Ancient Repository of knowledge (the face grabbing thingy :P ) Looked similar, black, with a slightly steam-punk feel. Atlantis was another phase in Ancient culture, they were bored with dark tones so they used more light colors. It also matches the progression of technology, from metal conductors to crystals. Even our own cultural styles tended to make a point of contradicting what was before them. :)



Sadly this is a speculative list, as we did not get any technobabble to explain the general technology in SGU yet.

Yup, I hope they go into more details in the second part of the season. 6 days left! :D

[Mister Oragahn]

Let's note that the head grabbers could have been built, or at least moved to certain places once the Lanteans returned.
For example, the head grabber on the outside wall of that stone temple, there's no way the valley itself and the temple would have not suffered over millions of years.

[thekillman]

that temple was almost completely destroyed. which says enough about age for ancient stuff.


ZPM's under normal, realistic circumstances do not deplete within the first million years

[AdamTM]

Even a Ha'tak can do that. Close to a blue giant even (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blue_giant.jpg).



It's impractical. Every time you need a recharge you'd need to find a sun. Not the best idea for a normally stationary city. Besides, the Ancients never had any trouble making ZPMs (the ships that used them are another issue). ZPMs are small, compact and very powerful.



It's not. Milky Way gates are 2 gen technology, Pegasus - third. The SGU class ones are the first type the Ancients mass-produced.



They did that. Lantea had a facility at the bottom of the ocean (http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_drilling_platform) that provided some secondary power in First Strike. In another episode (http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/219.shtml) there was a city sitting on a caldera drawing power from it. What an explosion that was... ;) All in all they never provided power comparable to a ZPM.



I'll give you that. TBH the writers did have the kino concept in mind during Atlantis (read this on Mallozi's blog, some time ago) but for some reason they've never used it. Though you're also right on the drones - same tech, different implementation.



We don't know how good it is. Or exactly how it's powered. After all, Destiny had been traveling for a really long time. Hyperspace has the advantage that it does not interact with normal space - just use a straight line. When Destiny is in FTL we can still see stars, it probably needs to plot a course around them, and other large objects.



It makes sense that it's more rudimentary since it's really old. But the look does match a bit - for example the Ancient Repository of knowledge (the face grabbing thingy :P ) Looked similar, black, with a slightly steam-punk feel. Atlantis was another phase in Ancient culture, they were bored with dark tones so they used more light colors. It also matches the progression of technology, from metal conductors to crystals. Even our own cultural styles tended to make a point of contradicting what was before them. :)



Yup, I hope they go into more details in the second part of the season. 6 days left! :D

Yes but Ha-Taks are not powered by fusion/solar power (underpowered compared to naquadah), they have (multiple i think) NQ generators, which makes the Destinies shield at least either very unique or very efficient.

Yes i understand it might be considered impractical, however its efficient. Im not suggesting Atlantis should have it, its a city, but ships, yes.
Sort of like a backup, so the ship can always have power available.
What would you rather have, a hybrid solar powered car with petrol and electrical engine that can run self-sufficient most of the time, or your old station-wagon that gets you stranded at some point because you ran out of gas?
Sure you wouldnt be able to race a Lamborghini on the electrical one but it would get you to the grocery-store.

[Mister Oragahn]

that temple was almost completely destroyed. which says enough about age for ancient stuff.


ZPM's under normal, realistic circumstances do not deplete within the first million years

Almost falling apart after ten millenia, in a valley where there's obviously going to be rain and winds, that's perfectly logical.
It is not when we being to claim that the stones survived erosion and potential land slides for millions of years.

[thekillman]

i am not claiming it's perfectly logical. but hey, the AOT survived for 50 million years underground, atlantis survived 10 000 years underwater, Destiny 10 million years in space, and Dakara some 10 million years in a rock.

surely ancient stuff is sturdy. in SG it's perfectly logical.

[Mister Oragahn]

Perhaps they strengthen the atomic structure of rock and other silicates in some particular way...

[thekillman]

or it just looks like rock

[Crazy Tom]

or it just looks like rock

You just gave a whole new meaning to the idea of "stone age" tehcnology.

[Alien encounter]

Not really. In fact, it is only the SGC that has had trouble with making ZPMs. For example, the Asurans had "more than enough" ZPMs to meet their needs.

ahhh technology .......... once u master it u can make more. otherwise u just blow up an entire solar system or just destroy up the space time thing . :D

[Orange Crush]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on . . .What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

Why can't she do both? Maybe Destiny works a bit like a diesel submarine. Diesel subs can't run their diesel engines while underwater, so they surface regularly to run the diesels, charge up their batteries, then go on their merry way.

Perhaps Destiny enters the sun and then and only then initiates a fusion reaction with the plasma as it's collected, storing gobs of energy in something akin to batteries or capacitors.

Without knowing more about how the process really works, all we can do is conjecture, but we should assume there's some aspect of Sundiving that makes it a better refueling/recharging method than simply collecting insterstellar and planetary hydrogen.


But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.

Energy is energy. It doesn't matter how it's generated in the end. A nuclear power plant isn't necessarily any more powerful than a coal power plant, I could have a 1 megawatt nuke and a 2 megawatt coal plant, for instance.

The part that matters for a starship is how much extra mass has to be lugged around to meet its power needs.

Why bother bringing your fuel with you at all if you don't have to? Destiny can generate all the power she wants while inside a star, and doesn't need to take any extra mass with her if she can just store the energy until the next pit stop.



The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.

That seems the likeliest reason. Plasma's charged and can be scooped up magnetically, and grabbing it from stellar atmospheres means it comes pre-heated, which might add a bit of efficiency to the fusion process.


On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

Destiny has artificial gravity. This implies she also has inertial dampeners and effective-mass reduction capabilities. Her main engine is just a glowing strip on the back, so there's no indication if it's even really a convential "thruster" or some kind of magical reactionless drive system.

[escyos]

Destiny actually has a room with hundred of mouse wheels and mice running on them to power Destiny

[bradly08]

Destiny actually has a room with hundred of mouse wheels and mice running on them to power Destiny

I knew it! The Loch Ness Monster's book was right!

[Quadhelix]

Why can't she do both? Maybe Destiny works a bit like a diesel submarine. Diesel subs can't run their diesel engines while underwater, so they surface regularly to run the diesels, charge up their batteries, then go on their merry way.

Perhaps Destiny enters the sun and then and only then initiates a fusion reaction with the plasma as it's collected, storing gobs of energy in something akin to batteries or capacitors.
This was my "interpretation" of theillman's suggestion that the Destiny runs off of fusion power from "sundiving."


Another possibility that I thought up was that the "scoops" don't actually scoop up anything, but instead project out some sort of Ancient "magitek" field that absorbed energy directly from the star (in which case, it could easily match ZPM levels of power output).

One reason that I still believe this, in spite of the 'magitek' aspect is because of "Earth," when they planned to use the Destiny's stardiving to power a 9-chevron dial. Based on the fact that their previous attempt to make a 9-chevron dial tapped into a power source that wound up destroying a planet, a power consumption of ~10^20 Watts seems rather minor. In spite of the fact that such a power output would require fusing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities) 150 million tons of hydrogen every second, just about everyone, from Telford to Rush, felt that Destiny's power intakes could match the need (as long as you discard the fact that it would destroy the Destiny).

[Maxwellxii]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on. If she was looking for AM she'd stay around flares, not dip into the photosphere, and there are other places to get AM. Plus AM is a risky "fuel", and unless you have found a way to really exploit all possible particles that are generated by matter annihilation, there's an enormous amount of waste with AM.
Fusion, no matter what, can completely shut down since it requires immense energies to be allowed first, and thus there can't be any real risk with fusion fuel (very light gases) and there's certainly no overload to fear (yeah, that point about the terraforming colony's overloading fusion reactor tied to the atmospheric processor in in ALIENS didn't make much sense).
What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.
See this post (http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/73011-Would-a-single-ZPM-be-able-to-dial-Destiny?p=11281826&viewfull=1#post11281826).

The biggest issue is why go into a star when there are better ways to gather fuel from gas giants. It's not even a question of having proper star charts or not because Destiny has literally chosen to dive into a star instead of sucking up gases from a gas giant, which it skimmed.

The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.
So we can safely return to the point of gathering hydrogen, especially since there's never been any better fuel for fusion.
Even Deuterium-Tritium fusion is not as good - check the energy density tables for example (1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities)), assuming 100% efficiencies, D-T fusion is twice less powerful.
The other problem with using gas giants' gases is that if we go by the limits we are experiencing today, the reactor might need to be bigger to start consuming the fuel in question (2 (http://crowlspace.com/?p=112)). If Destiny picked Helium-3 (3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3)) from a gas giant, at best by mixing it with heavy hydrogen it could obtain 591,600,000 MJ/kilogram. Sounds high, close enough to top H fusion, but notice that you do need heavy hydrogen. You'd either have to find a planet with large quantities of water and logically heavy water (4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water)). Although much less dangerous than tapping stars, it's also terribly time consuming and oxygen would have to be filtered or consumed first.
If it's filtered and stored, this would however be a plus for life support, but Destiny apparently wasn't really meant to work with a permanent crew. The ship could also replenish her water storage doing so.
With roughly 35 mg (3.5 e-5 kg) of deuterium per liter of water (which itself is roughly 1 kg/L), or 0.003,5%/L. Inversely, to obtain 1 kg of deuterium that way, you'd need at least to collect 28,571.43 liters of water. More than 28 tonnes. And then there's the question of the efficiency of power generation.
Harvesting deuterium from rare dusty cloud formations surrounding some stars would also prove not reliable enough (5 (http://news.softpedia.com/news/039-Hidden-039-Milky-Way-Deuterium-Found-32904.shtml)), in comparison to the abundance of stars.
Quite clearly, if your ship is powerful and tough enough to take a dip into a star, there's no question as to which option is the quickest.

Now, using Helium-3 is much more interesting. Fusing Helium-3 would provide, at a 100% efficiency, 206 e6 MJ/kg. It's not so far from perfect hydrogen fusion. Density of helium may be low, but time is not a constraint much in such conditions, for the gain at hand, and there's no question about flying right into a giant fusion oven.
I find it odd to consider that the Destiny's reactor, if it were fusion based, couldn't handle some variety in its mileage, really.
Heck, a planet like Uranus has an atmosphere which "is composed of about 83 percent hydrogen, 15 percent helium, 2 percent methane, and tiny amounts of ethane and other gases. The atmospheric pressure beneath the methane cloud layer is about 19 pounds per square inch (130 kilopascals), or about 1.3 times the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Earth. Atmospheric pressure is the pressure exerted by the gases of a planet's atmosphere due to their weight," (6 (http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/uranus_worldbook.html)).

So we fall back to the point that there could be an advantage in tapping a star because of its ongoing fusion reactions. It's very puzzling and I don't think it makes much sense.

On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

EDIT: typos.

unless it is aiming for the plasma and not just normal hydrogen... a hydrogen plasma reactor.

[thekillman]

hydrogen is in a plasma state inside the star. the hydrogen you suck up is plasma.


what if the scoopers project a massive energy draining field? not just forward or in a direction, but kinda like how atlantis projected a massive shield to protect the planet from a solar flare.

[morrismike]

It is collecting stellar matter (proton/electron soup). For all we know the sun could contain rivers or lakes of subatomic matter that can to condensed. Perhaps Destiny has a engine that runs off of Latent heat of quark condensation or something else just as ridiculous.

The suns we see destiny immersed in are mostly hydrogen and helium. The splittling of a 1 Mev photon into a electron/positron pair requires a gamma photon and a heavy nucleus. protons and alpha particles in a plasma soup aren't "heavy nucleus". There would be very little antimatter in a normal sun (short lived or not).

[morrismike]

unless it is aiming for the plasma and not just normal hydrogen... a hydrogen plasma reactor.

You can't actually find an intact hydrogen atom in the sun unless you collect the plasma and allow it to cool.

[morrismike]

This was my "interpretation" of theillman's suggestion that the Destiny runs off of fusion power from "sundiving."


Another possibility that I thought up was that the "scoops" don't actually scoop up anything, but instead project out some sort of Ancient "magitek" field that absorbed energy directly from the star (in which case, it could easily match ZPM levels of power output).

One reason that I still believe this, in spite of the 'magitek' aspect is because of "Earth," when they planned to use the Destiny's stardiving to power a 9-chevron dial. Based on the fact that their previous attempt to make a 9-chevron dial tapped into a power source that wound up destroying a planet, a power consumption of ~10^20 Watts seems rather minor. In spite of the fact that such a power output would require fusing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#True_energy_densities) 150 million tons of hydrogen every second, just about everyone, from Telford to Rush, felt that Destiny's power intakes could match the need (as long as you discard the fact that it would destroy the Destiny).

I like that idea. Those scoops simply "tap" the energy contained in the massive flux inside the sun.

[Nth Chevron]

So basically, i think we've narrowed it down to 2 probabilities;

1) Destiny absorbs energy straight from the star and stores it in huge capacitors.

2) Destiny uses stars as motorway services.

N.C

[garhkal]

Now that I think about it, it makes sense that the Lucien Alliance would want to figure out how Destiny's refueling systems and reactors work. A more modern ship with that type of anti-matter fueled power source might give a Z.P.M. enhanced ship a run for it's money + it would be re-fuelable, something that's impossible for a Z.P.M. to do.

Interesting point. Though since right now, they would know (if they have more spies) that dialing back is impossible at the mo, how would they get use of that info back home?


How many? "Many" ("Progeny") and "More than enough to suit our needs" (Ibid).

Woul have been nice if Narim at least told Mccay what they called them.


Probably, but that begs the question how do they know about Destiny and its power systems???

Telford. he was stoning in and out, during the Light/darkness/earth area, and durin that time was still their mole.


I just dont see how this is any fuel-efficient. I could imagine that up to 1/5th of the fuel absorbed would be used to just keep the Destiny from blowing up.

Even if that is the case, it is still an efficient (IMO) way of refuling..




i dont get why the military people who went to the destiny didnt grab one or 2 naq generaters when they went runnin through the gate... they grabbed other tech liek the comm stones....



Perhaps A) there were none, and B) if there were, they were not near the gate..

[Nth Chevron]

Have to admit, given what happened when the Atlantis expedition arrived for the first time, you would think there would be a Mk.2 Naquadah generator "just in case" sort of thing.

N.C

[danielhartley91]

While watching "Light" I noticed that Destiny passes through the upper atmosphere of a gas giant right before entering the sun to refuel itself. Given that the upper atmospheres of gas giants hold a significant amount of helium and hydrogen, could it be possible that the Destiny purposely traveled through the planet to scoop up helium-3 for backup power and hydrogen for engine propellant? As for the ship dipping into the sun, my best guess is that Destiny's form of F.T.L. propulsion requires an enormous amount of power, hence the need for anti-matter fuel. Any thoughts on this?

the production designer wrote "BAD ASS FTL Fusion drives" next to the picture would be my best guess

[Nth Chevron]

Destiny passed through the amosphere of the Gas giant as an aero braking maneuver to slow her down as she was almost out of power, necessitating the crews desperation in the lottery.

This had nothing to do with the refuel

N.C

[Cadklz]

the sun itself reinforces the shield. a weapon would reinforce the shield after the hit, thus making the re-inforcement useless.

That might not be the case, for example if the shield were to absorb 100% of the energy being fired at it, lets say 50 petajoules, and the shield absorbed all of it then the next blast would take away the newly acquired energy leaving the shield with the same energy as it came into battle with. the the next hit would do the same. and therefore making the shield impenetrable.