Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

[Steelbox]

What do you think? Would us manage to dial the destiny using only one ZPM? If not how many do you think it would be necessary to. :mckay:

[lordofseas]

No.

A lot. A whole lot of ZPMs in synchrony. It took an entire planet filled with the most unstable element/isotope going critical and practically unleashing all the power it had available.

[mirdin1992]

YESSSSSSSSS!

A ZPM could dial the Destiny again and again and again and ag..... again.

I once calculated that it would take about 30-60 Mk.I naquadah reactors to power milky way-peagasus connection for enough to send things through but not exceed the 38 minute time limit.

[Steelbox]

A lot. A whole lot of ZPMs in synchrony. It took an entire planet filled with the most unstable element/isotope going critical and practically unleashing all the power it had available.

While watching Air i had the distinct impression that the critical/explosion status of the core was caused by shots of the Hataks on orbit, combined with the dialing procedures.

[lordofseas]

YESSSSSSSSS!

A ZPM could dial the Destiny again and again and again and ag..... again.

I once calculated that it would take about 30-60 Mk.I naquadah reactors to power milky way-peagasus connection for enough to send things through but not exceed the 38 minute time limit.

If they were able to dial Destiny with a single ZPM, then they would have done it. They are faaar past the Pegasus galaxy.

[lordofseas]

While watching Air i had the distinct understanding that the critical status of the core was caused by shots of the Hataks on orbit, combined with the dialing procedures.

Yet it was the only time that they successfully dialed Destiny.

[Steelbox]

Yet it was the only time that they successfully dialed Destiny.

I agree that the core going critical would release more energy. But would it be necessary to go critical? No. There where two trips programed, one to ascertain viability and gather data and another one to send a team. The Eli power rate x power extraction algoritm/equation was used so an exact quantity of energy was extracted without the core exploding.
Now do we know how many energy is needed to be extracted from naquadria to explode/ go critical? How many was necessary to dial Destiny. For all we know it is possible that 1 or a couple ZPM would do the job however taxing for them.

[Michael Jansky]

Bottom line is, we don't know the yield of Naquadah at all (besides the vague line from the original film where Ra says that just the small amount of Naquadah he added to the bomb, which looked to be about a kilo to me, would increase the yield a hundred times), and the only way we can try to calculate the power of a ZPM is that old ZP-energy-from-a-teacup-of-space-would-boil-all-oceans-on-Earth analogy, stated by either Feynman or Planck, I don't remember which.

The power of a ZPM is impressive, but another question is, can it be released over a short enough period to power the connection? We know a ZPM can be overloaded, so likely there is a limit on the rate energy is drawn from it. We only know that the ZPM has a final capacity, as it works much the same way as a battery (non-rechargeable). But you also can't extract all the energy stored in a 1,5V-battery at once, it will only give you those 1,5 Volts, and if you want too great a current from it, it'll likely just pop and spill out, or short-circuit. Happens often enough.

So, really, I cannot say if a single ZPM can be used to dial Destiny. I'm of the opinion it cannot under normal circumstances. If, however, one built a capacitor that can deplete a ZPM on charging itself and then release all the energy at once, it could be possible. Problem is, even if the Ancients knew how to build such a thing, we most likely do not.

[thekillman]

MT's per gramme for Naquahdah. a solid naquahdah core would yield about 10^38 joules of energy. naquahdriah is several orders of magnitude more powerful.


the core might not be entirely solid, but even at 1% naquahdah it still is an impressive 10^36 joules. ZPM's are somewhere in the 10^35 area.


i think that there are two possibilities:


1: yes, a ZPM can dial destiny. it depletes really fast though, and is nearly depleted within a minute.

2: NO, at least two are needed, if not a whole battery of ZPM's.

[Pharaoh Atem]

What do you think? Would us manage to dial the destiny using only one ZPM? If not how many do you think it would be necessary to. :mckay:

no clue we don't know the exact power requirements to dial the ninth chevron

[Jedi_Master_Bra'tac]

If they could they wouldn't have needed the icarus planet. They have ZPMs.

[Alx]

on topic!
IMO No

[LtColCarter]

IDK...but it would be fun to find out...

[Steelbox]

If they could they wouldn't have needed the icarus planet. They have ZPMs.
In short supply only thought.

[Buba uognarf]

The Odyssesy using its ZPM was able to power the Supergate and go to the Ori galaxy, however it depends how power consumtion increases with distance as opposed to the size of the wormhole...I would think dialing a Supergate to a very distant galaxy would be just as taxing as dialling the Destiny but it would appear a ZPM is not enough...

The Core of Icarus was made of Naquadriah, an asteroid 140km wide with a core of Naquadah would become a mini nova when detonated so a planet core made of something even more explosive would be super nova level at least.

[tinerin]

The Odyssesy using its ZPM was able to power the Supergate and go to the Ori galaxy, however it depends how power consumtion increases with distance as opposed to the size of the wormhole...I would think dialing a Supergate to a very distant galaxy would be just as taxing as dialling the Destiny but it would appear a ZPM is not enough....

Wasn't the supergate powered by a mini black hole?

[LtColCarter]

Wasn't the supergate powered by a mini black hole?

If I remember correctly, it was.

[legacy_of_hammond]

no way one zpm could power up the gate for that. your forgetting, it took a heavily ionised planets' core to produce the amount of energy to power the gate, and even then the planet essentially ceased to exist because of the power consumption. besides the only 2 people who kno the adress are rush and eli, and rush is, for all intense and purposes, out of the picture for now. so i cant see anyone dialing destiny what so ever. what i want to kno is, why the goauld where attacking them to begin with, i sense a plot line there somewhere. hmm

[thekillman]

you realise what happened when we found Atlantis. advanced tech, ZPM's, ridiculously powerful city. obviously the LA wants some of that stuff too

[mirdin1992]

On the black hole powering the supergate.

You guys realize that a ZPM(solar system busting one) has the equivalent of dozen or so Earth mass planets stored into them. A single planet mass singularity is not much compared to that.

[K^2]

Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.

[lordofseas]

Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.

Understatement of the year.

[Steelbox]

no way one zpm could power up the gate for that. your forgetting, it took a heavily ionised planets' core to produce the amount of energy to power the gate, and even then the planet essentially ceased to exist because of the power consumption. besides the only 2 people who kno the adress are rush and eli, and rush is, for all intense and purposes, out of the picture for now. so i cant see anyone dialing destiny what so ever. what i want to know is, why the goauld where attacking them to begin with, i sense a plot line there somewhere. hmm

We didn't need all the power the core could fasten for us. What i was stating is maybe the power requiriments are not that high. Of course we had to use the planet because it provided us with an Alternative to the very rare ZPM and with unlimited energy output, and i risk, probably way more that a ZPM could harness.
It was not specified that the only ones that know the address where Eli and Rush. Tech Sargent Riley was in charge of gate duty and dialing procedures, he would also know it. Besides all the IOA would know it since they are in charge oversighting with is an open door for the LA spy to infiltrate and extract any data concerning our more secret facilityes and projects.


you realise what happened when we found Atlantis. advanced tech, ZPM's, ridiculously powerful city. obviously the LA wants some of that stuff too

Thats why they where after the planet. They did not intended to destroy it, but to capture it.

[Mister Oragahn]

While watching Air i had the distinct impression that the critical/explosion status of the core was caused by shots of the Hataks on orbit, combined with the dialing procedures.

Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.


I agree that the core going critical would release more energy. But would it be necessary to go critical? No. There where two trips programed, one to ascertain viability and gather data and another one to send a team. The Eli power rate x power extraction algoritm/equation was used so an exact quantity of energy was extracted without the core exploding.
Now do we know how many energy is needed to be extracted from naquadria to explode/ go critical? How many was necessary to dial Destiny. For all we know it is possible that 1 or a couple ZPM would do the job however taxing for them.

As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago. Unless, of course, what prevents them from doing so is not the power, but the gate. If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.
I'd rather go with that second explanation.


Bottom line is, we don't know the yield of Naquadah at all (besides the vague line from the original film where Ra says that just the small amount of Naquadah he added to the bomb, which looked to be about a kilo to me, would increase the yield a hundred times),...

On the contrary, we have lots of evidence to know the energy density of naqahdah. Check the second link in my sig.


... and the only way we can try to calculate the power of a ZPM is that old ZP-energy-from-a-teacup-of-space-would-boil-all-oceans-on-Earth analogy, stated by either Feynman or Planck, I don't remember which.

The zero point energy density of one cubic centimeter of vacuum is just silly. Something like e92 J I think. That's one of the theories, but anyway, by plot, that would allow any writer to say that a very good ZPE system could tap a virtually undepletable source.


The power of a ZPM is impressive, but another question is, can it be released over a short enough period to power the connection?

The fastest drain we've seen was a controlled one, via the power grid of Atlantis, at a rate of 2%/s. That makes the minimum absolute drain clocked at fifty seconds.


We know a ZPM can be overloaded, so likely there is a limit on the rate energy is drawn from it.

I think the overload has much more to do with the ZPM having at least one internal buffer, and somehow this buffer being supercharged with energy. That, or some kind of internal spacetime fracture that would release exotic particles.
We know that different overload thresholds can be defined. McKay was able to have the Asuran cityship's ZPMs to overload, yet it only vaporized the ship, and nothing else.
That's a drop in an ocean, compared to what they could do, or even the calculated power figures.


We only know that the ZPM has a final capacity, as it works much the same way as a battery (non-rechargeable). But you also can't extract all the energy stored in a 1,5V-battery at once, it will only give you those 1,5 Volts, and if you want too great a current from it, it'll likely just pop and spill out, or short-circuit. Happens often enough.

So, really, I cannot say if a single ZPM can be used to dial Destiny. I'm of the opinion it cannot under normal circumstances. If, however, one built a capacitor that can deplete a ZPM on charging itself and then release all the energy at once, it could be possible. Problem is, even if the Ancients knew how to build such a thing, we most likely do not.

The real question is how much the Icarus core was outputting.

See that following Light, the IOA and SGC thought that by diving the ship into a main sequence star, they could channel enough energy directly into the stargate, in episode Earth.
First of all, we know that Destiny has a scooping system that allows it to drain a vast amount of energy, much more than whatever it can take from the volumes of ionized gas the scooping nodes can ram into (Light).
It literally has to extend nets in order to suck up net energy. Remember that the ship has to control its course into a star and out of its gravitational field, and has to have her shields withstand all the radiations and solar bursts while doing so.
Besides, considering that by picking power from the star, they didn't extinguish any reaction in the star, it's absolutely clear that they ship only picks a very low fraction of the power a star generates.
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=901&pos=883
The star in question could be considered like ours, for sake of simplicity.
Luminosity is 3.846 e26 W, so we already know that the power they planned to channel through the ship's power grid would be inferior to that by a faaaar margin.
Then the intensity in the photosphere is 2.009 e7 W/m², so obviously even if you worked out the eV per atom in a cubic meter in that region, the power levels wouldn't be... stellar. Than, again, pointing out the need to use an advanced syphon system.
Problem is, by the visuals (which are going to be limited to artistic liberty and lack of scientific knowledge), we didn't exactly see intense streams of matter being forced into the scooping nodes, which abysmally black and cold matter being expelled.
Why the ship needs to get into the star to do that, however, is most curious, and may suggest that contact with the denseer plasma of the photosphere is necessary, and contact with the lightweight plasma densities of the corona wouldn't be enough to do whatever the system needs to do.

Anyway, on topic, the point is that the power level they though would be sufficient to dial back Earth was far below the max output of a ZPM.

Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.
Also consider that they may have not known what kind of star they'd be directed into. Although a red giant would have seriously made the plan completely pointless, if they had flew into a blue giant, the story would have been different: Although the plan would have been thousand times more dangerous, I don't think that coming close to such a star would have been a problem. After all, we know that a Ha'tak can sit close to a blue giant for ten hours without breaking a sweat.
The problem would have been once inside. A blue giant has a power that can easily be several tens of thousand times superior to that of Sol. The danger would have been, then, with the Destiny maximum on flux. Could the power grid channel such energies? Could it even do that while having the shields holding on? Would the scooping nodes even survive such temperatures?
Surely, if the eggheads on Earth counted on something between our star and blue giant, it would raise the likely "fraction of a star's power" figure they hoped to harvest during one of those stellar baths.

Finally, we can already rule out certain low-ball power figures. Gigawatts are easily obtained even with crude naqahdah reactors. The portable Mark-Is can provide multiple dozens of gigawatts or more, with a potential of several dozens terajoules.
We can also rule out terawatts because of the energy densities of larger amounts of naqahdah.
The resistance of a Ha'tak's shields against a blue giant points to a power flux of several terawatts, with obviously a large reserve of energy.
On a higher note, depending if you give stock into the maxium 200 megatons yield of a single bolt from SG-1 season 1, then a Ha'tak can channel that much energy, and therefore there's little reasons why the Tau'ri around season 10 and beyond couldn't achieve something similar.

Therefore it would appear to be a safe bet to safely start playing with high petawatt power figures.

Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.

After all, black holes can power stargates... although the process of how a stargate can even harness enough energy out of a black hole it orbits is a mystery, and probably another occasion to argue the existence of a (subspace) net that collects energy "invisibly", since gates orbiting black holes could only receive a silly low fraction of the energy a black hole outputs. Besides, a large black hole wouldn't make such a good power source. You'd rather have a short lived and small black hole.

The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.
It still doesn't exempt the stargate from needing a system to collect large amounts of energy, and that's why we can only speculate on ethereal umbilicals or net that tap the black hole in a way or another, possibly as an extension of the ethereal power feed system that's used between a stargate and a DHD.

Then again, the black hole allowing a connection between two galaxies, either close or distant, would prove that power is not the problem.

In theory, a ZPM, and even a lesser power source, should allow the connection.



MT's per gramme for Naquahdah. a solid naquahdah core would yield about 10^38 joules of energy. naquahdriah is several orders of magnitude more powerful.
the core might not be entirely solid, but even at 1% naquahdah it still is an impressive 10^36 joules. ZPM's are somewhere in the 10^35 area.
i think that there are two possibilities:

1: yes, a ZPM can dial destiny. it depletes really fast though, and is nearly depleted within a minute.

2: NO, at least two are needed, if not a whole battery of ZPM's.

Or

3: nothing to do with power.
:)

Notice that the asteroid would release the energy of a small nova that would have boiled off Earth's oceans, the energy is indeed closer to e33~35 J, the distance between the explosion and Earth, and the omnidirectional nature of the blast completing the picture since the planet would receive only a fraction of that energy, a fraction that would not be so high as to literally crack open the exposed side.



The Core of Icarus was made of Naquadriah, an asteroid 140km wide with a core of Naquadah would become a mini nova when detonated so a planet core made of something even more explosive would be super nova level at least.

How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.

PS: that new BB interface is truly DISASTROUS. >:[

[tinerin]

Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.

The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...


As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago.

You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...


If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.

This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...


Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.

The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?


Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.

Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...


The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.

i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...


3: nothing to do with power.
:)

As far as the people writing the show are concerned, it has everything to do with power...


How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.

Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...

[Mike.]

I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

Did I get this right ?

@blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.

[thekillman]

naquahdriah planet.

and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid

[Mike.]

Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.

[Mister Oragahn]

The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...

What's the source of that info?


You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...

There's clearly something that's been going on that I've missed. Is there any canon information that suggests that tapping power for too long to dial that far is what caused the system to overload and begin an unstable chain reaction?


This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...

If that's so, no problem. I've never been 100% sure about the Earth dialing restriction thing.


The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?

The piddly explosion akin to a couple megajoules?

Still doesn't make sense. The ship could only tap a fraction of the power of a star. Clearly this caps any power source we've known thus far. We know for fact now that a ZPM's maximum power output is only a fraction of a star.
Unless of course the crew couldn't know what kind of star they were heading for, and hoped for a blue giant.
But still, if we go down that route, running at 2%/s over 50 seconds wouldn't be enough to even turn an entire continent into a smoking crater, or boil off a planet's oceans, since even a fraction of a blue giant's power wouldn't be enough, over 50 seconds, to muster something in the region of e33 J and more.

Unless the Destiny doesn't sundive to absorb power, but to stock massive amounts of hydrogen, possibly stocked in some ancestor to the ZPM, that is, a "pocket universe" device (hammer bag), or one that uses mass lightening. It could therefore pile up hundreds of millions if not many billions of tonnes of hydrogen, or perhaps even more, who knows.

Still, it will always comes very short of what we thought a ZPM could output. Eventually it would mean that both systems meet somewhere in the petawatt or exawatt range*. Thus any super explosion of a ZPM is not proper energy by largely due to those physics raping particles, and we would suggest, on the other hand, that the Destiny is capable of consuming most of its reserves within a few hours, enough to cover two 38 minutes trips.

* Values superior to exawatts could be reasonable if the guys counted on a blue giant, imho. We still have the Tria that expands the equivalent of teratons of energy just to decelerate, when you count relativity and time dilation, but perhaps there's an explanation down the road, one that involves mass lightening. Still, even if an Aurora's mass could be reduced by a factor of, say, a couple thousands, you'd still be looking at a power production of the order of many exawatts anyway.


Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...

A few lightning bolts could power a stargate to a trip over several light years, for a short period. Destiny is capable of handling at the very least terawatts of power, evidence by those sun divings.
I guess the power conduits are really screwed up somewhere then. The weapons themselves may have been operating at a level below what they could normally reach.


i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...

Black holes are considered to "evaporate". The heavier it is, the longer it remains. One that masses ~2.3 e5 kg lasts one second.


Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...

Without evidence I can't really accept it.
It would be much better if you could tell where the info comes from.

[Mister Oragahn]

I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

Did I get this right ?

It's not because a ball of something has x as a total energy density that when used as a power source, it will properly exploit that potential energy over a given time.
If that planet had a special core, and I'd really like to know where the frak that info comes from, the power production would still be limited to whatever power plant the Alterans built there.
Perhaps the Alterans used the whole planet as a reactor, using gravity to constrain the reaction, but I find that hard to believe because they'd have to prevent the overall mass of naqahdah or naqahdria from blowing up and that would mean creating an isolated volume within the volume. A hassle, in other words.
It could, on the contrary, picture a sort of power plant that would reach deep into the magma and suck up naqahdah to bring it up into a reaction chamber somewhere up in the crust, but still using the mass of the crust above as a plus to maintain pressure, along other force fields and super alloys for the chamber's shell.
There could be several chambers like that as well.

Now, what did cause the chain reaction? Tapping too much power, or the Ha'taks firing somewhere at the planet?
If it's naqahdria, then somehow tapping too much power is known to cause an overload. We've seen a naqahdria reactor reach overload because too much energy was taken from it at once, and that happen twice in fact, in Redemption and Memento, both in SG-1's 6th season.
If it's the second option, then the Ha'taks' weapons managed to damage the power plant. I can't picture those weapons posing any threat to the planet itself.


@blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.

Nope, McKay definitely overloaded the ZPMs themselves.
Yes, the city started to blow in some parts as McKay and co were escaping, but the big splosion is the ZPMs blowing up.


naquahdriah planet.
and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid

I have hard times believing it's naqahdria. This material is rather short lived, and it would have returned to naqahdah before the era of the homo erectus on Earth.
Naqahdah would make much more sense in all possible ways.


Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.

Not necessarily. You just need certain concentrations of isotope and an assured purity to obtain enough critical mass for certain types of reactions to sustain themselves.
The increase of temperature and pressure helps getting closer to other favourable parameters which themselves also allow chain reactions.

There might have been a large mass of naqahdah in the planet, but its density so low, so diluted, that it was difficult to kickstart a chain reaction.

However, I can picture the power plant, while harnessing large quantities of purified naqahdah from the core, overloading and exploding, thus triggering a chain reaction that would spread all over the core. The energy piling up, it would only be a question of time before the threshold for a massive explosion might be crossed. Not all of naqahdah may react, but a large amount would nonetheless, enough to generate a level of energy a couple of orders of magnitude above n e32 J, enough to overcome gravitational binding and even scatter a planetary mass that violently.

[mirdin1992]

*snip*


*snip*

Thats a very well thought argument.

Also on the ZPM being able to power a gate to the Destiny. I want to make a reference on some calculations on ZPM energy on another forum, a thread which you made.

From it the ZPM has enough energy from solar system/planet busting to holding the pressure of ocean floor for 3.333 years to not being able to lift a 4km diameter city from the planet.

From this I presume that the ZPM will not be a consequence in SGU. If they ever find one by rule of plot will be severely depleted, loose it, need it for something else(its wasteful to save less than a hundred people), or the ZPM maximum energy will hit a new low in the show.

[thekillman]

actually if a high energy event created a naquahdriah asteroid (probably by exotic radiation), and that asteroid crashed on Icarus, then transmuted the naquahdah into naquahdriah, it's possible.


anyway, we know naquahdriah decays back into naquahdah over the course of a few thousands years. so if the asteroid hit a few millenia ago, it's plausible.

also, the rarity is BECAUSE of naquahdriah

[tinerin]

What's the source of that info?

Without evidence I can't really accept it.
It would be much better if you could tell where the info comes from.

wow, I narrowed it down to one of either two episodes and/or a webisobe...how about you watch the show before claiming that something wasn't mentioned in the show...

from Air, Part 1:
JACKSON: ... Icarus Base was established on a planet discovered two years ago to have a uniquely powerful core. The entire purpose of the project is to hopefully one day dial the nine chevron address found in the Ancient database.
Also, naquadriah is specifically mentioned in the full webisode video...


There's clearly something that's been going that I've missed. Is there any canon information that suggests that tapping power for too long to dial that far is what caused the system to overload and begin an unstable chain reaction?

It was stated in Air that all the explosions and what not going on outside the base it was triggered the chain reaction...Rush just took advantage of the situation to dial Destiny because he knew he would never get another chance (at least not from that planet)...

from Air, Part 1:
RILEY: Doctor Rush? I'm reading a dangerous energy spike in the core.
.....
RUSH: If this bombardment continues, the radioactive core's gonna go critical.
and this was before they even started dialing the gate...


The piddly explosion akin to a couple megajoules?

It was a simple TEST; nowhere near the full amount of power to dial the address...if such a small amount of power running through the conduits would cause an explosion, what do you think the power to dial the 9-chevron address would do to the conduits?


A few lightning bolts could power a stargate to a trip over several light years, for a short period. Destiny is capable of handling at the very least terawatts of power, evidence by those sun divings.
I guess the power conduits are really screwed up somewhere then. The weapons themselves may have been operating at a level below what they could normally reach.

Remember that the lightning bolts powered the stargate to dial a wormhole to one of the closest planets in the galaxy to Earth and only maintained the wormhole for a few minutes...for all we know,the Destiny's range is even farther than that and supposedly can maintain the wormhole for the full duration...
My theory is that the limited range on the Destiny's stargate is a safety feature to ensure that anyone who dials out can dial back using the kino remote...we've yet to obtain the Destiny's master code so we just might not have the ability to shut that feature off, not like we would want to since the Destiny crew has no portable power sources...


I have hard times believing it's naqahdria. This material is rather short lived, and it would have returned to naqahdah before the era of the homo erectus on Earth.
Naqahdah would make much more sense in all possible ways.

Naquadriah is specifically mentioned by Daniel Jackson in his video on the stargate...also, I think Rush mentions naquadriah in Life when he's lying about finding another Icarus planet...


Not necessarily. You just need certain concentrations of isotope and an assured purity to obtain enough critical mass for certain types of reactions to sustain themselves.
The increase of temperature and pressure helps getting closer to other favourable parameters which themselves also allow chain reactions.

I agree with this in that the planet blew up but the naquadriah didn't necessarily obtain critical mass...It is mentioned in the extended pilot, that one of the most costly aspects of Icarus Base is cooling the facility because the naquadriah in the core exerts so much pressure on the planet's crust...all the weapon blasts hitting the surface could have put enough strain on the surface that it couldn't contain the pressure from the naquadriah so eventually the naquadriah broke the entire planet's crust and no more Icarus planet....


actually if a high energy event created a naquahdriah asteroid (probably by exotic radiation), and that asteroid crashed on Icarus, then transmuted the naquahdah into naquahdriah, it's possible.

Wow, you just like to use the term "exotic radiation" to show how clueless you are in physics don't you? anyways one possible process that could convert naquadah into naquadriah is discussed in an SG-1 episode in a conversation between Carter, Jonas and the Goauld spy...i'm too lazy to look it up but i believe it had something to do with heavier subatomic particles...


anyway, we know naquahdriah decays back into naquahdah over the course of a few thousands years. so if the asteroid hit a few millenia ago, it's plausible.

Well we know that there is a process that converts naquadah into naquadriah...as long as the process was still active, it's possible that the naquadriah that decayed into naquadah could have been reconverted back into naquadriah...this could potentially be maintained until the conversion process stops...


also, the rarity is BECAUSE of naquahdriah

this is true...

[thekillman]

or maybe it's a power issue, or the gates are thin seeded, or the correlative update system isn't included

[Astrum porta]

Well think about it, the ancients must have had some convienent way of dialing the 9th chevron and their best source of power was their zpms'. One naquedah reactor = within one galaxy, one zpm = within two galaxies, x = more than 9 galaxies away i think rush said? So 9 zpms!

[thekillman]

WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXACT DISTANCE.


also, if the ancients had actually dialled it, it would've been billions of lightyears closer!

say it's a billion lightyears away. thats 1000 million LY's. approx. 10 million years ago, the ancients left, so that's approx. 100 lightyears per year. which isn't a lot. if we go by the lower figure, 5 million lightyears, Destiny still travels only 200 lightyears per year. more logical, is 10 or 100 billion lightyears, giving it a speed of 1000 resp. 10 000 LY per year *we can cross that distance in hours to a day*

[K^2]

The universe itself is less than 100 billion light years across, so we are definitely no talking anything close to 100 billion. I suppose, it could be over 10 billions, but I think Rush would have said something to this effect, so we are looking for something in 5-10 billion light years range.

This is still at least 3 orders of magnitude on top of trip to Pegasus DIG, so there is no reason to suspect that any sane number of ZPMs could handle it.

[deltaCain054]

Please don't complain if any of this has been said before, I don't feel like reading through a few pages to pointless techno babel to read something that should be simple.
No 1 ZPM could not power a wormhole to Destiny, but it might be feasible to dial it with 5 or more ZPMs, at least for a few micro-seconds.
Icarus base was destroyed because weapons fire caused the naquahdriah to destabilize, causing extreme energy outputs, causing the entire core to destabilize and explode. It had nothing to do with dialing Destiny (it is possible that dialing Destiny drained a lot of power from the core, delaying the explosion, though this is completely theoretical). As for why flying through the sun and dialing the gate on Destiny didn't work, Dr. Rush may have also sabotaged the attempt (it was sort of hinted).

[mirdin1992]

*snip*

This is my opinion so I must be right.:rolleyes:


People stop with all the guessing. You guys don't know how much power it takes to dial the Destiny anymore than I do.

The only thing I'm certain it will have the energy the plot requires, if it appears. :P

[Mike.]

This is my opinion so I must be right.:rolleyes:


People stop with all the guessing. You guys don't know how much power it takes to dial the Destiny anymore than I do.

The only thing I'm certain it will have the energy the plot requires, if it appears. :P


Hmm, ok I accept the challenge :P . Let me break down deltaCain's post to the individual ideas so that I can prove that he's right.


No 1 ZPM could not power a wormhole to Destiny,
Correct. In Daniel's training video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXd9AsBwOLk) it is stated that the the "purpose of the project [Icarus] was to one day dial the nine chevron address found in the Ancient database". This proves that the single or multiple ZPMs Atlantis obtained over the years was not sufficient or they would have used them.


but it might be feasible to dial it with 5 or more ZPMs, at least for a few micro-seconds.
Correct. Each ZPM has an enormous amount of power and thanks to simple logic we can conclude that if one is not enough more can be used to double/triple/quadruple/.../... the available power until it becomes sufficient. The real figure might prove to be impractical, but as an exercise in thought it is sound. The micro-second notion is from SGA - what Mckay did to send some messages through the Stargate from Atlantis, powered just by NQ reactors.


Icarus base was destroyed because weapons fire caused the naquahdriah to destabilize, causing extreme energy outputs, causing the entire core to destabilize and explode. It had nothing to do with dialing Destiny (it is possible that dialing Destiny drained a lot of power from the core, delaying the explosion, though this is completely theoretical).

Correct again. Here's the relevant transcript from Air part one as proof:


FLASHBACK. ICARUS BASE. The Lucian troop transport and its glider escort fly down towards the base. The troops on the platforms begin to fire at them as they come into range. The gliders return fire. Inside the base, people look up in concern at the nearby impacts. At a computer in the Gateroom, Sergeant Riley calls out.

RILEY: Doctor Rush? I'm reading a dangerous energy spike in the core.

RUSH: Eli, Eli. I need your help.

WALLACE: With what?

RUSH: The ninth chevron.

WALLACE: What?! We need to get the hell out of here!

RUSH: Look, it took us two years to find this site. The properties are unique. This may be our last chance.

(The base vibrates under a nearby explosion.)

RUSH: If this bombardment continues, the radioactive core's gonna go critical.

WALLACE: Y-you mean the planet –- it's gonna explode?

RUSH: Yes.Next:


As for why flying through the sun and dialing the gate on Destiny didn't work, Dr. Rush may have also sabotaged the attempt (it was sort of hinted).
Again, correct. The episode made the point of casting doubt on Rush, in several scenes - when Rush stated that he rigged the alarms:

Earth transcript:

WRAY: You staged the whole thing

JOHANSEN: So all of this was just to get rid of Telford?

RUSH: Had to be done.

GREER: So you're sayin' that the ship is not gonna explode?

RUSH: Oh no, we would most definitely all be dead had I not put certain limits in place. I also arranged for the alarms and warnings to go off regardless - a bit of theatre. Always nice.

And then again at the end when Young asked Eli to verify Rush's data:


YOUNG: I need you to do something for me.

WALLACE (swinging around on his chair to face him): Sure thing.

YOUNG: Go over the data collected as they tried to dial the Gate.

WALLACE: I have already. There's a lot I don't understand.

YOUNG: Well, then, you need to learn - as fast as you can, and you talk to whoever you have to.

WALLACE: D'you think Rush is hiding something?

YOUNG: That's what I want you to tell me.

(Perhaps a little unwillingly, Eli nods. Young turns and leaves the room and Eli swings back around to the console and continues the playback of the earlier recording.)

Whether Rush actually did it will be revealed in a later episode, but it certainly was "hinted".

Challenge met! :P

[mirdin1992]

*snip*

1. The naquadriah detonation was in the range of 2.9 x 10^32 J. This was the explosion of all the naquadriah in the core. The gate was not that great a power drain to come close to deplete the planets energy supply.

2. a) ZPM(type I) Can destroy the planet in the same manner as the naquadriah core detonation. While on the surface of the planet => ZPM>2.9 x 10^32 J. Supported by SGA Arturus episode and the ZPM powered Daedalus taking exaton directed coronal mass ejection from the star.

2. b) ZPM(type II) Can bust solar system at 50% charge so fully charged ZPM~2.4×10^44 J. This could dial the Destiny millions of times even if the gate would need planet busting power every time.

3. ZPM will have enough power as the plot demands or is conveniently unavailable.

Also for those who think the ZPM can't supply the power at the needed rate. McKay&Mr.Miller has drained the ZPM at 2% per second. This was not hinted to be a maximum.

Take them apples:P.

[Mike.]

References for the numbers please. I provided a source for everything I said. Otherwise it would be meaningless. ;)

You didn't prove that any of my points were inaccurate:

[...]
Correct. In Daniel's training video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXd9AsBwOLk) it is stated that the the "purpose of the project [Icarus] was to one day dial the nine chevron address found in the Ancient database". This proves that the single or multiple ZPMs Atlantis obtained over the years was not sufficient or they would have used them.
[...]
Furthermore it was stated *on the show* that they might not get another chance, implying that the other chance would be an identical planet.


RUSH: Eli, Eli. I need your help.

WALLACE: With what?

RUSH: The ninth chevron.

WALLACE: What?! We need to get the hell out of here!

RUSH: Look, it took us two years to find this site. The properties are unique. This may be our last chance.

You argument is invalid. :D The writers of the show say it is.
___________________

Say we carry on...

The planet explosion was not the whole story. The blast should be MUCH larger if all the naquadria is used:

In Fail Safe a 137 kilometers asteroid with just a naquadah core can create a nova size explosion:

Sam Carter: The asteroid has an irregular shape, but we've calculated its length from end to end to be approximately 137 kilometers.
Jack O'Neill: I've seen this movie. It hits Paris.
__________
Sam Carter: Sir, the asteroid's core is composed almost entirely of naquadah.
Jack O'Neill: Of course it is.
Sam Carter: It makes up about 45 percent of the total mass.
Dr. Daniel Jackson: Of course it does.
__________
Sam Carter: [explaining the contents of the asteroid and how the bomb will affect it] The explosion will be enhanced by the naquadah, probably to the force of a small nova. This close to Earth, it would be enough to set the atmosphere on fire and boil the oceans.
Jack O'Neill: Okay, this was not in the movie. Source for the quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0709086/quotes?qt0286396)

The Icarus planet has a pure naquadriah core - 1) the material type should output a LOT more energy, 2) a planet core is much larger. Say 2880 to 6370 km (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=earth+core), assuming the Icarus planet was the size of Earth - no difference in gravity was stated. The real explosion would be a lot larger than just the destruction of the planet, even more than a complete solar system destruction.

Icarus type planet > ZPM.

You're absolutely right on the point of how fast a ZPM can be depleted. The issue is that it wouldn't keep the wormhole open for a practical amount of time to get anyone through.

/Actually yeah, a ZPM could dial the Destiny, but only that. "Chevron Nine is locked. [the lights go out] The ZPM has been depleted" :lol:

[kymeric]

The core was overloading and wouldn't shut down when they dialed destiny. And they had the address for years just didn't have the power to dial it, remembering there's been a ZPM on earth since season 3 of Atlantis, some 3-4 years ago. It was worth a billion dollar base to dial destiny but not to risk an irreplacable ZPM. So I assume it either wasnt enough, or wasnt worth the risk.

[mirdin1992]

The core was overloading and wouldn't shut down when they dialed destiny. And they had the address for years just didn't have the power to dial it, remembering there's been a ZPM on earth since season 3 of Atlantis, some 3-4 years ago. It was worth a billion dollar base to dial destiny but not to risk an irreplacable ZPM. So I assume it either wasnt enough, or wasnt worth the risk.

Or maybe the crappy knockoffs that the Asurans make and call ZPMs and we are stealing from are like a alkaline battery to a antimatter one only a million times worse.

[deltaCain054]

No, the ZPMs stolen from the Asurans were just like the ones designed by the Ancients, and would be just as powerful.

[mirdin1992]

No, the ZPMs stolen from the Asurans were just like the ones designed by the Ancients, and would be just as powerful.

No, they are crappy like the Auroras they build which the producers say are really inferior to ancient built ones.

[deltaCain054]

While the Asuran ZPMs might be inferior, it wouldn't be by much. They are based on Ancient design, and therefore use the same technology (ie: a contained pocket of subspace).Its not like there's hundreds of ways to build ZPMs.

[s09119]

Chances are it just isn't possible, for whatever reason, given that Earth had a ZPM in the time it also had the Destiny address and couldn't make the connection.

[kymeric]

Their zpms worked well enough to fly an entire city 90% of the way to earth, power an untested propulsion, go thru a long fight with a superior vessel, and then survive a reentry and still have enough power to cloak a city.

[deltaCain054]

Their zpms worked well enough to fly an entire city 90% of the way to earth, power an untested propulsion, go thru a long fight with a superior vessel, and then survive a reentry and still have enough power to cloak a city.

Yeah and the only reason the hyper drive failed was due to mechanical problems.

[mirdin1992]

Their zpms worked well enough to fly an entire city 90% of the way to earth, power an untested propulsion, go thru a long fight with a superior vessel, and then survive a reentry and still have enough power to cloak a city.

And take it from the rear from the Superhive that has 1 ZPM:rolleyes:

Also you can hear the crew shouting X%...Y%...Z%... of the shield power. As we know that the shield is up as long as the ZPM has power, we can deduct that the percents were the ZPM charge. IMO it was dropping pretty fast:p.

Anyway EatG is non-canon and should be decanofied in all but that Atlantis got ZPMs, intercepted the superhive, kicked it six ways to sunday and landed in San Francisco bay with a view of the Golden Gate bridge and nothing else.:mad::mad::mad:

[lordofseas]

And take it from the rear from the Superhive that has 1 ZPM:rolleyes:

Also you can hear the crew shouting X%...Y%...Z%... of the shield power. As we know that the shield is up as long as the ZPM has power, we can deduct that the percents were the ZPM charge. IMO it was dropping pretty fast:p.

Anyway EatG is non-canon and should be decanofied in all but that Atlantis got ZPMs, intercepted the superhive, kicked it six ways to sunday and landed in San Francisco bay with a view of the Golden Gate bridge and nothing else.:mad::mad::mad:

Unfortunately, it is canon. Unless you can prove to me that it isn't.

[deltaCain054]

And take it from the rear from the Superhive that has 1 ZPM:rolleyes:

Also you can hear the crew shouting X%...Y%...Z%... of the shield power. As we know that the shield is up as long as the ZPM has power, we can deduct that the percents were the ZPM charge. IMO it was dropping pretty fast:p.

Anyway EatG is non-canon and should be decanofied in all but that Atlantis got ZPMs, intercepted the superhive, kicked it six ways to sunday and landed in San Francisco bay with a view of the Golden Gate bridge and nothing else.:mad::mad::mad:

What are you talking about? What about EatG is not canon?

[danielmckay]

You know i have been reading all these posts you guys have posted. And it seems to me that you all keep on going back and forth. No a ZPM would not be able to dial destiny. The ZPM would be depleted too fast. Now however if the Destiny had enough power in store to maintain that connection than maybe. because the stargate would only have to be opened for a couple of seconds. I cant exsactly remember the epsiode that stated that fact but i am sure someone will remember it. I think it was Dr. Mckay explaining that.

If the Destiny did have the power to maintain the connection then the ZPM could be depleted and the stargate would have stayed open.

[deltaCain054]

One, I don't remember them saying how many ZPMs were on board the wraith hive, though it was indicated that there was only one.. Two, the weapons were by far more powerful than normal, capable of taking down a 304s shield a couple of shots. Remember wraith weapons are specifically designed to take down shields. Third, there's no way to tell how much power was drained by the worm-hole drive. Once again ZPMs can't just be manufactured a hundred different ways. They operate on the same principle of extracting power from a contained pocked of sub-space. IF they different from the Ancient ones it would be unlikely that they would be compatible with Ancient technology without modification. While the Asuran battle cruisers would have definitely been inferior due to the fact that the Ancients would not grant a possibly hostile force access to top of the line military technology, the ZPMs wouldn't. ZPMs had been around for a long time, and while still very valuable, its not something that the Asurans wouldn't have access to.

[mirdin1992]

deltaCain even if the asuran and the ancient work on the same principle does not mean that they have to be at the same power capacity. Example two different batteries and one can power my remote 3 times as long as the other.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?71619-Zero-Point-Module-ZPM-Calculations&p=10897459&viewfull=1#post10897459 (this thread and Mr.O in special has done extensive calculation on this. The ZPM energy figures are more than enough to blow several planets.)

[deltaCain054]

My point was that the Asurans would definitely had access to the Ancient ZPMs, and therefore should have found out how to build them. Why would they build and inferior model when they have access to a better one?

[mirdin1992]

Crappy reverse engineering. Code that makes them incapable to exactly match their creator tech. That is besides the point. All that matters is that TPTB said that their tech is cheap chinese knockoffs of their creators. It may look the same but one will fall apart as you open the box :D

[deltaCain054]

After they made learned how to rewrite there code, and took Atlantis ( which had the Ancient ZPM from the Tria) they would have definitely been able to reproduce it exactly. And they would have. They are replicators. Thats what they are good at. What i think is that the writers simply didn't think of this or just completely ignored this fact.

[lord groovy]

After they made learned how to rewrite there code, and took Atlantis ( which had the Ancient ZPM from the Tria) they would have definitely been able to reproduce it exactly. And they would have. They are replicators. Thats what they are good at. What i think is that the writers simply didn't think of this or just completely ignored this fact.

It was just that they realized that there was no realistic way to show our confrontation against the Asurans if they were exactly like the Lantians without being weak to the Wraith sucking-power and biotech (they are not carbon-based).

For the same reasons, we never really fight against the Oris but only their Priors and followers. Even Adria was tuned down to avoid having her mop the floor with SG1.

Back to the topic, what about the power device made by McKay and his sister. It would probably wipe out dozens of universe before connecting to Destiny. It seemed to me that it was able to power Atlantis as easily as the 3 ZPMs. Could someone check for me?

[mirdin1992]

The device your talking about is essentially the Arcturus reactor but dumps all the particles created by it that violate physics into another universe. It was stated to have the power of dozens of ZPMs and at a 50% power it overloaded(lost containment of particles, I think) it destroyed 5/6 of a solar system.(this may include the sun). Also the 5/6 solar system can be interpreted many ways. It caused extinction level event on a solar system scale. Vaporize 5/6 of the solar system. Or(my opinion) could destroy the Daedalus at 5/6 of the solar system.

Also the solar system can be interpreted as ending at the ort cloud which is 50.000AU(AU distance sun->earth) or ~ one light-year.

[lord groovy]

The device your talking about is essentially the Arcturus reactor but dumps all the particles created by it that violate physics into another universe. It was stated to have the power of dozens of ZPMs and at a 50% power it overloaded(lost containment of particles, I think) it destroyed 5/6 of a solar system.(this may include the sun). Also the 5/6 solar system can be interpreted many ways. It caused extinction level event on a solar system scale. Vaporize 5/6 of the solar system. Or(my opinion) could destroy the Daedalus at 5/6 of the solar system.

Also the solar system can be interpreted as ending at the ort cloud which is 50.000AU(AU distance sun->earth) or ~ one light-year.

then powerful enough for the Destiny ?
Note : Was it the same than the one used in Daedalus variations? able to power an alternate dimension drive?

[mirdin1992]

then powerful enough for the Destiny ?
Definitely. It blew up the solar system at 50% power. Can supply the same power as 25 ZPM at 100%(here (http://www.gateworld.net/omnipedia/technology/p/projectarcturus.shtml)). Meas that a ZPM could destroy~7% of the solar system alone. So yes..... Both the Arcturus device and ZPM can supply the power for dialing the destiny


Note : Was it the same than the one used in Daedalus variations? able to power an alternate dimension drive?

No. People confuse the subspace 'tap' that it used to fill a capacitor to the necessary charge to power a alternate universe jump with a ZPM which gets its power from zero point energy (read here (http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/Zero_Point_Module_%28ZPM%29)) it would be explained better.

[lord groovy]

but with the subspace tap you could fill a capacitor over time until you reach ZPM or Arcturus level of energy then open a gate to Destiny.

[mirdin1992]

yah...you could. If you had a lot a time.... years maybe to fill the capacitor for just a single shot.

Also the sun idea the people on SGU came up with is stupid and shouldn't have enough power to dial the gate if it requires planet busting power.

Read here (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x1.html#rbomb) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_%28energy%29#1024_and_above).

The thing is to bust a planet like earth, they would need to store all the energy of the sun generates in a couple of weeks and the red dwarf has lot less power output than the big ball of nuclear reaction that we have over our heads.

[Mister Oragahn]

yah...you could. If you had a lot a time.... years maybe to fill the capacitor for just a single shot.

Also the sun idea the people on SGU came up with is stupid and shouldn't have enough power to dial the gate if it requires planet busting power.

Read here (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x1.html#rbomb) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_%28energy%29#1024_and_above).

The thing is to bust a planet like earth, they would need to store all the energy of the sun generates in a couple of weeks and the red dwarf has lot less power output than the big ball of nuclear reaction that we have over our heads.

Actually the idea was not stupid, if you consider that Destiny doesn't suck up whatever energy she's hit with from the fusion taking place in the photosphere, but literally sucks up HUGE amounts of fusion fuel, which can be fused later on at a rate which remains undefined. This way you don't have a stupid contradiction with a ship that could only hope to gather very limited amounts of power (all relative) by flying close to a sun. Notice, by the way, that although it's artistic liberty we're dealing with, you didn't see the area around the Destiny go black, like it would happen if the ship had been draining the energy of every single particle in that region.
The dive Destiny takes imho is the moment when, after having deployed the ramming scoops, she draws massive amounts of hydrogen, which she hypercompresses in fuel tanks for later use.

Hell, who knows. Perhaps the fusion fuel is only used to kickstart and maintain a much more complex reaction that is even more powerful? Perhaps a micro-singularity where matter is annihilated.

[K^2]

Perhaps a micro-singularity where matter is annihilated.
You cannot annihilate matter without anti-matter, so that wont' work. If it runs on hydrogen, fusion is all you are going to get.

[mirdin1992]

Mr.O-

It would need several OOM more hydrogen than the actual ships mass. IF it doesn't have a hammerspace it doesn't have the capability to store enough hydrogen.



You cannot annihilate matter without anti-matter, so that wont' work. If it runs on hydrogen, fusion is all you are going to get.

Can you please enlighten me on what the asgard transporter do, please? :D (not that I'm saying your wrong or anything)

[K^2]

Can you please enlighten me on what the asgard transporter do, please? :D (not that I'm saying your wrong or anything)
If I knew I'd build one. :) But there isn't anything that strictly prevents matter from ceasing to be over here, and instead start existing over there. In fact, this actually happens to elementary particles, and is responsible for many processes in chemistry. There can even be a brief delay where matter doesn't exist anywhere. Uncertainty principle allows for all that. But matter with rest mass cannot arbitrarily become energy with no rest mass. You need a matter-antimatter reaction for that. Since Asgard beam doesn't permanently turn you into energy, there is no strict violation. But as far as actual mechanism, I don't know. I speculated elsewhere that Asgard are masters of gravitational manipulation. It would explain many aspects of their tech. Controlled tunneling under gravitational barrier might work for the transport system, but I don't know why the beam and the lights, and how it manages to work over such large distances through walls and other obstacles, and gets you across without killing you in the process.

To give you another reference point, I have a better idea on how to build a working Stargate than anything resembling Asgard beam. And the ring transport I can practically give you schematics for.

[Laertes]

but with the subspace tap you could fill a capacitor over time until you reach ZPM or Arcturus level of energy then open a gate to Destiny.

He's got a point. Sounds doable.

[Coremae]

sure, if they had the code to access it, didn't the planet's ring have a code?

[Mister Oragahn]

You cannot annihilate matter without anti-matter, so that wont' work. If it runs on hydrogen, fusion is all you are going to get.

Unless the system feeds on supraluminal particles. ^_^
But it could also rely on a rotating singularity that destroys neutrino pairs or annihilate dark matter, which there's plenty to pick in space I believe.


Mr.O-

It would need several OOM more hydrogen than the actual ships mass. IF it doesn't have a hammerspace it doesn't have the capability to store enough hydrogen.

To do what exactly?
I'm not sure to get what you mean. Are you talking about the issues of creating a small singularity?

If not, then on a related topic, even a 50% efficient reaction of hydrogen fusion would provide more than 320 e12 J per kilo. There's more than enough hypothetical room inside Destiny to store up to tens if not a few hundred thousand tonnes of hydrogen fuel. If it's compressed (like we managed to compress fusion fuel by direct energy to crank density by a factor of a million or so recently, even if for a short time), the only issue would be not to end with a total fuel mass figure that would come one order of magnitude close to that of the ship's mass, otherwise it would look silly.
Still, Ancients had the capacity to fiddle with effective mass, even on puddle jumpers, and those ships existed even before Atlantis left Earth millions of years ago.
I'm also skimming over the technobabble mechanism used to force hydrogen into the ramming scoops Destiny deploys, or the filter the ship would use to harvest hydrogen that's not reacted yet.

[mirdin1992]

I'm referring to that the Destiny does not have enough space to store the needed energy in the form of hydrogen on the ship to destroy a planet. Metallic hydrogen density or no.

[jimv1983]

I think a full ZPM could dial Destiny if you could somehow drain it all at once. Remember 1 ZPM held back an ocean of water for 3,333 years on Atlantis. Like someone said before. If they could build a capacitor that could drain a ZPM and allow the Stargate to use it all at once I think a connection could be possible.

[Janus]

To add my to cents, I don't think a ZPM will do it. (Otherwise, they would have found one and used it by now.) I think it simply doesn't have enough power. But to give this thread a twist, why do we have to make the power source bigger ?....

When we can make the Gate smaller. We still have that Gate that Orlin build in Carter's basement right ? And 'The Pegasus Project' proves that you can connect a small Gate to a bigger Gate. All we have to get it working again and add two dailing crystals. Due to the smaller diameter of the Gate, the power demands should be smaller as well, and then a ZPM can do the job.

[Mike.]

I think maintaining the wormhole requires most of the energy over such a large distance. The puddle that takes care of the dematerialization is less important, sending is the hard part. The actual wormhole could be of plank width (really f***n small :)) , in both cases.

[theta123]

But then you would NEED a ZPM first! And it is not like ZPM's can be bought on a offworld market or in a shop

[Puddle-Jumper]

Id say it would take lots and lots of ZPMS together to be able to dial it... earth has a handful of them at most which are all being used to defend the planet and atlantis and what not..

Also something that just occured to me... The ancients weren't planning on dialling the destiny after a million years or whatever length of time has passed... they were planning on dialling it probably after a hundred years or so... no more then a thousand years anyway.. Which would require a lot lot lot less power then to dial it when its a billion light years away (They probably would have been able to make a power source to dial it that far away but when they were going to go there, a single ZPM or 3 ZPMs together would probably have sufficed)

As for Eli's equation from Air.. I got the impression that it was more to do with getting the highest amount of power into the gate without damaging it or blowing it up, while at the same time not causing the planet to become unstable, which as Rush would have figured if he got the most energy possible into the gate then that would have been enough to dial the 9th chevron.

[jimv1983]

Id say it would take lots and lots of ZPMS together to be able to dial it... earth has a handful of them at most which are all being used to defend the planet and atlantis and what not..

Also something that just occured to me... The ancients weren't planning on dialling the destiny after a million years or whatever length of time has passed... they were planning on dialling it probably after a hundred years or so... no more then a thousand years anyway.. Which would require a lot lot lot less power then to dial it when its a billion light years away (They probably would have been able to make a power source to dial it that far away but when they were going to go there, a single ZPM or 3 ZPMs together would probably have sufficed)

As for Eli's equation from Air.. I got the impression that it was more to do with getting the highest amount of power into the gate without damaging it or blowing it up, while at the same time not causing the planet to become unstable, which as Rush would have figured if he got the most energy possible into the gate then that would have been enough to dial the 9th chevron.

We don't know when the Ancients planned on going to Destiny, they may have already been there and left. My guess is that they would have planned on going long after they sent it. Thousands of years at least. I just don't see the seeder ships having enough time to really seed that many gates in just a few hundred years.
I don't think the long distance is what takes so much more power than a ZPM. They can already dial another galaxy which is quite far away. I think the majority of the power is used finding where Destiny is. Dialing a gate that you have an exact location for should take less power. Like they said in "Air" the 9 symbol address isn't really an address, its more of a code. To use the telephone analogy that has been used before. 7 symbols is like a phone number in your area code. 8 symbols is like a number out of your area code. The 9 symbol code is like the red phone on the president's desk. It's a direct line. You need an exact location to establish a wormhole. Destiny's location is always changing. My guess is that when you dial the 9 chevron code the gate sends a message through subspace that covers the entire universe (which would take a lot of power). Once Destiny is located it drops out of FTL and allows a connection to be made, which may not take much more power than dialing Pegasus.

I could be wrong but it make sense to me.

[deltaCain054]

While Pegasus is quite far away, its practically next door when you consider how far away Destiny is. While finding Destiny may take some power, its nothing when compared to the power required to maintain a stable wormhole. But Yes, finding Destiny would still require a lot of power.

The Ancients intended to travel to Destiny at least a few hundred to a couple thousand years after it launch. However it was most likely abandoned when hyperdrives were created, and then the discovery of Ascension.

I just thought of something. Remember the device that Anubis used as a gate buster. Is it possible that its original intended use was for supplying enough power to a gate to dial Destiny?

[Control_Chair]

I just thought of something. Remember the device that Anubis used as a gate buster. Is it possible that its original intended use was for supplying enough power to a gate to dial Destiny?
Wouldn't it have had to have been located on Earth to dial the Destiny, Earth Point of Origin and all?

Besides I don’t believe that device was originally designed to blow up Stargates, Why would the Ancients want to blow up one of their own gates, it doesn’t make sense. More likely Anubis learned of its location when he Ascended and also learnt how to modify it from its original function (possibly as some kind of power generator or power transfer device?) to channel energy into the wormhole until the receiving gate overloads.

[deltaCain054]

Wouldn't it have had to have been located on Earth to dial the Destiny, Earth Point of Origin and all?

Besides I don’t believe that device was originally designed to blow up Stargates, Why would the Ancients want to blow up one of their own gates, it doesn’t make sense. More likely Anubis learned of its location when he Ascended and also learnt how to modify it from its original function (possibly as some kind of power generator or power transfer device?) to channel energy into the wormhole until the receiving gate overloads.

No you don't have to be on Earth to Dial destiny.

And that was kind of my point. I think the devices original intent was to power a gate to allow travel to Destiny. It is capable of creating that much power, and would have taken less power to dial Destiny when the Ancients were still around.

[Jhary]

Recording to Stargate Atlantis Final Episode Yes And with the use of 3 Atlantis coud jump next to Destiny

[lordofseas]

Recording to Stargate Atlantis Final Episode Yes And with the use of 3 Atlantis coud jump next to Destiny

So many things were wrong with EatG that you can't possibly use that as a reference, not without other stuff backing it up.

[deltaCain054]

With the wormhole drive I think distance would still be a factor as far as power is concerned, so no you would still need more than 3 ZPMs.

In any case, what do you guys think about the gatebuster being designed to dial destiny? yea or nay?

[Mike.]

Nay. A ZPM can blow up a whole solar system and it's still not enough. A gatebuster is much weaker.

[deltaCain054]

I was talking about the device Anubis used to destroy the Earth gate. It is capable of supplying enough power to overload a gate.

[Mike.]

Right. Sorry.

Just FYI, the "gatebuster" name is already taken, it's a Mark IX is a naquadria enhanced nuclear bomb. It was used to try and destroy the gate on the planet the Ori collapsed into a black hole to power a supergate. The gatebuter was used again to blow up the gate that was keeping another supergate open. Several were also used against the Asurans.

You meant this:

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/Mike_M404/Gatekiller.jpg

^^
Yeah, I guess it could dial Destiny, though we don't actually know its original intended purpose. Too bad it was destroyed...

[kymeric]

My guess is NO since it took a planet of naquadria blowing up to dial destiny the one time it was done. Maybe if you daisy chained several zpm's for the power but ud still need a gate whos capacitors wouldnt blow up with that much power in them, and some kinda wiring that wouldnt melt/explode with that much power running through them.

I kinda think even the asgard and wraith would struggle with that one...

[deltaCain054]

Yeah i knew gate buster was taken, but i couldn't think of a proper name.

As for needing "a planet of naquadria blowing up to dial destiny", it wasn't necessary to dial Destiny. Icarus exploded as a result of the orbital bombardment. The naquadria core was required to power a gate as far as it could be powered with out destroying it and keep a constant power supply. This could have been achieved without the core exploding. I was talking about the device being used back when the Ancients were around. It would no longer be able to supply the constant amount of power to keep the wormhole active because Destiny is so far away.

[Greenfire32]

What do you think? Would us manage to dial the destiny using only one ZPM?

Maybe a fully charged one, but those are (so far) non-existent. The short answer is no or we would have already done so without the use of project Icarus.

[lordofseas]

Maybe a fully charged one, but those are (so far) non-existent. The short answer is no or we would have already done so without the use of project Icarus.

We've encountered a couple of fully powered ZPMs. The ones Todd gave, the one from the brought by the Asurans during the Return, the one from the Quindosium.

[Greenfire32]

We've encountered a couple of fully powered ZPMs. The ones Todd gave, the one from the brought by the Asurans during the Return, the one from the Quindosium.

Right, I completely forgot about those. However, (now that I have a bit of a memory jog lol) if I recall correctly, the ones Todd gave were the only ones we were able to actually use (wormhole drive), the ones brought back by the Ancients were depleted (or close) by the time we could use them, and I don't remember the Quindosium at all......episode reference please.

Once again, I reserve the right to be completely wrong, as my memory is a little fuzzy.:P

[deltaCain054]

Right, I completely forgot about those. However, (now that I have a bit of a memory jog lol) if I recall correctly, the ones Todd gave were the only ones we were able to actually use (wormhole drive), the ones brought back by the Ancients were depleted (or close) by the time we could use them, and I don't remember the Quindosium at all......episode reference please.

Once again, I reserve the right to be completely wrong, as my memory is a little fuzzy.:P


The Quindosium were also known as the Brotherhood of the 15. "The Brotherhood" Atlantis episode 16

The Ancient's ZPM we never had access to, but the Asuran ZPMs were at least very near full and were spread between the Odyssey, Atlantis and the Ancient weapons platform.

[kwlafayette]

I do not think it is energy, I think they need a specially designed gate, like the one on the Icarus planet. If they had an adequate gate, they could dial Destiny with a ZPM. Then again, it would be a one way trip, so I cannot see that many people volunteering.

Assuming the Icarus gate survived the explosion, I think they will find that one eventually, and get it set up again.

[deltaCain054]

I do not think it is energy, I think they need a specially designed gate, like the one on the Icarus planet. If they had an adequate gate, they could dial Destiny with a ZPM. Then again, it would be a one way trip, so I cannot see that many people volunteering.

Assuming the Icarus gate survived the explosion, I think they will find that one eventually, and get it set up again.


No it definitely didn't survive the explosion, and no any gate can dial Destiny. You simply need an adequate power source, possibly a specially designed control crystal for the DHD, but those can be made. The power generated by the Icarus planet was high enough to make gate explode in just a few minutes if the power wasn't cut, which is a very large amount of power. I'm not sure how that relates to a ZPM, but that's still a lot of power.

If Destiny could constantly receive stuff from Earth, I would go. The only thing I would miss would be Xbox live, but I'm sure you could make a game network there.

[kwlafayette]

Also, I think ZPMs are pretty much reserved for earth defense. So they would not use one in such a manner anyway.

[thekillman]

I'm not sure how that relates to a ZPM, but that's still a lot of power.


according to my calculations it makes a ZPM look like crap. Icarus exploding will be noticed as a supernova in 21 years on earth.

[deltaCain054]

according to my calculations it makes a ZPM look like crap. Icarus exploding will be noticed as a supernova in 21 years on earth.

Couldn't have said it better.
You know, given the power source they had there, you think they would have installed some sort of shield generators.

[Mike.]

Couldn't have said it better.
You know, given the power source they had there, you think they would have installed some sort of shield generators.

I don't think we have the capability yet to place a shield over a whole planet. Even if we had the energy we don't have the tech to use it.

Hmm, does anyone know what happened to Arthur's Mantle ?

[deltaCain054]

I think it still on Earth, but it does raise the question of why it has never been used, especially in Stargate Continuum.

[kwlafayette]

It always bugged me, that there was never any hint of where the Ancients made ZPMs, how they made them, nothing. They continue to be simply a magical device that magically appears whenever they have a need for vast amounts of near limitless power. One of the weakest plt devices ever, like they weren't even trying.

PS. You would think at the very least, the Atlantis would have been able to make those. ZPMs being so critical for its existence and all.

[deltaCain054]

Yeah, they should find a facility that creates them, or used to. Any such facility would have probable been destroyed by the Wraith, but there should be at least some reference to it.

[kwlafayette]

Well, the Asurans seemed to have all the brand new ZPMs that they wanted. That was another thing, where the heck did they get them all from? They had a fully powered city, plus all they wanted for war ships.

[deltaCain054]

They were replicators, They made them themselves.