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GateWorld
December 14th, 2009, 03:05 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/dollhouse/s2/the-attic/"><!IMG SRC="" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOLLHOUSE - SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/dollhouse/s2/the-attic/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE ATTIC</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 210</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Echo experiences her worst nightmare after it's decided that she's too dangerous. <I>(TV Guide)</I>

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/dollhouse/s2/the-attic/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

HAL2100
December 18th, 2009, 07:40 PM
When the five-some is hiding out in the basement talking about how the Attic is Rossum's main frame, the guy who was Arkane made some comment about security and a woman. I caught that the woman was Caroline, who obviously didn't remember anything. However, what was the guy saying? What was it that he said that the security people and the woman (Caroline) did inside the Attic?

P.S. I'm really getting addicted to Dollhouse now.

MattSilver 3k
December 18th, 2009, 07:52 PM
The Attic was totally trippy - I loved it. So many pieces sliding into place - it's a shame that this show is ending, but I'm very glad that Joss is doing his thing and trying to finish up the story best he can with the last episodes.

HAL2100
December 18th, 2009, 07:56 PM
The Attic was totally trippy - I loved it. So many pieces sliding into place - it's a shame that this show is ending, but I'm very glad that Joss is doing his thing and trying to finish up the story best he can with the last episodes.

There's a good chance that they're all in the can.

Amalthea
December 18th, 2009, 07:58 PM
I think being in the Attic is what Book would have called "A special hell."

I definitely never expected to see what's his name again- let alone as a hero saving people in a shared virtual reality.

Using people as computers makes sense in a totally twisted way though- Topher was completely right that the brain has a lot of processing power in it.

DeWitt being the architect of all the craziness was unexpected- especially after her drinky drinky-ness in the previous episode! I'm so glad she's not really a corporate sellout!

I wonder what Echo meant by meeting Caroline? Like dump Caroline in with the others, or imprint someone else with the personality? And I wonder what they took from Ballard... maybe his love of Echo?

rowie4life
December 18th, 2009, 08:32 PM
These last few episodes have been really good, shame it was canned.

MathiasE
December 18th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Yup, the past few episodes have been awesome, still can't believe they are cancelling this show while so many crappy shows are allowed to continue.

Yes i know they go by ratings but if people rather watch some mindless **** like all the realityshows then i just feel sorry for people in general for missing out on some great scripted tv ;)

HAL2100
December 18th, 2009, 10:00 PM
I just hate the fact that its starting to feel as if Wheadon had a solid idea as to where the story was going to go from Day 1 in general terms.

sparklegem
December 19th, 2009, 08:51 AM
However, what was the guy saying? What was it that he said that the security people and the woman (Caroline) did inside the Attic?

I have to watch it again, but from what I understood, it's not what they did inside the attic. It is just that they found out something they weren't suppose to (i.e. Caroline saw the face of the mysterious original founder of Rossum) and so they were taken care of (the security members by being sent to the attic or Caroline by being made a doll).

Honestly, for the first half of The Attic, it was the first Dollhouse episode that I thought was not very well written--I mean, there's this random shadow guy that's just going around killing people. And things just seemed really randomly put into the attic for the sake of having a tree or Echo being little girl for 5 seconds. Once Arcane was revealed and it made sense and a lot of pieces came together, though, I really enjoyed it. I was just being impatient to have a meaningful plot.

The end with DeWitt just blew my mind, and now I'm so confused at how much she was acting, if she was against Rossum the whole time or this is a relatively new development now that she's sobered up, how long Topher, Boyd, and others have known about her plan. Given this reveal, I have no idea what was actually going on. What was she talking to Ivy about? Why was she threatening Topher? Testing his allegiances?

Also, what the heck was up with the half second flash of Mitch Pileggi? I'm thinking that he's the other original founder that Caroline knows the face of and which briefly appeared to Echo as a result.Edit: Guess it's not Mitch Pileggi. Looked like him, though. Anyways, anybody catch that little bit and find it significant?

Giantevilhead
December 19th, 2009, 09:06 AM
I think Whedon is redoing the series finale of Angel but making it more awesome. DeWitt's betrayal was way more believable than Angel's "turn to the dark side."

MattSilver 3k
December 19th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Also, what the heck was up with the half second flash of Mitch Pileggi? I'm thinking that he's the other original founder that Caroline knows the face of and which briefly appeared to Echo as a result.Edit: Guess it's not Mitch Pileggi. Looked like him, though. Anyways, anybody catch that little bit and find it significant?

The bald guy was the rapist from the first episode - the one who kidnapped one of Echo's imprints as a child or something. He also took that little girl and stuffed her in a fridge. Yeah, I thought it was Mitch Peliggi at first too...

HAL2100
December 19th, 2009, 10:00 AM
I have to watch it again, but from what I understood, it's not what they did inside the attic. It is just that they found out something they weren't suppose to (i.e. Caroline saw the face of the mysterious original founder of Rossum) and so they were taken care of (the security members by being sent to the attic or Caroline by being made a doll)[/COLOR]

Yeah its that bit of conversation that the Rossum founder made about security and a woman that I missed. I might rewatch it on Hulu.

ShadowMaat
December 19th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Arcane (forgot his real name) said there was a woman who had "seen the faces" of some of the security people or something to that effect... and that woman was Caroline. If that's true, though, why allow her to become a doll? Why not shunt her directly into the Attic? I'm assuming that's what they did with the guy who had to "enjoy himself" (and wow, talk about taking something literally). I know the Rossum corporation is arrogant in the extreme, but if I had a security threat I wouldn't allow it to run around no matter how well I thought the brain-scrubbing had been.

Are we going to find out that Caroline is the Big Bad's daughter or something? I hope not. I hope Joss is going to be more original than that.

sparklegem
December 19th, 2009, 12:30 PM
The bald guy was the rapist from the first episode - the one who kidnapped one of Echo's imprints as a child or something. He also took that little girl and stuffed her in a fridge. Yeah, I thought it was Mitch Peliggi at first too...

Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

HAL2100
December 19th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Arcane (forgot his real name) said there was a woman who had "seen the faces" of some of the security people or something to that effect... and that woman was Caroline. If that's true, though, why allow her to become a doll? Why not shunt her directly into the Attic? I'm assuming that's what they did with the guy who had to "enjoy himself" (and wow, talk about taking something literally). I know the Rossum corporation is arrogant in the extreme, but if I had a security threat I wouldn't allow it to run around no matter how well I thought the brain-scrubbing had been.

Are we going to find out that Caroline is the Big Bad's daughter or something? I hope not. I hope Joss is going to be more original than that.

Separating her mind from her body accomplishes the same thing and provides an opportunity for additional revenue from her being a doll. They had no way of knowing that she'd be able to retain memories/personalities.

DigiFluid
December 19th, 2009, 04:47 PM
The supervillain monster of the dream world is a muscular, faceless black man? Whoa there, Joss, you're treading on thin ice my friend.

The SuperEchoMatrix ridiculousness continues. So her brain is plugged into a computer, it's been done. And twisted dream weirdness, well, The Sopranos perfected that particular storytelling technique in their episode "The Test Dream". And she kills herself only to be resurrected to save the world? Yeah Joss, we already saw that in The Matrix. Even if it all part of a dream.

Still, it's a very fascinating development that the Attic is actually Rossum's processing power. Neat idea, really neat. It's a bit of a plot deus ex machina, but it works.

I'm also a bit confused.... on two points: Adele was having Boyd 'arrested'/removed at the end of 2.09. So why is he back at work at the beginning of this episode? And 6 Million Dollar Paul, what happened to the Adele/Ballard stand-off?

Enjoyed seeing Mr. Dominic and Sierra's dead guy again, though; the lighting/colour palette/cinematography was just fantastic, and it was really cool to see the future/Epitaph vision.

Giantevilhead
December 19th, 2009, 05:35 PM
I wonder how they got the saran wrap off of Caroline without taking out the needles on her head.

ShadowMaat
December 19th, 2009, 05:36 PM
I didn't think Boyd was being arrested, just... removed from the office. And the standoff could be dismissed as the tricksy brain tinkering being responsible.

Or we could all still be inside the Matrix Attic.

Amalthea
December 19th, 2009, 08:30 PM
The supervillain monster of the dream world is a muscular, faceless black man? Whoa there, Joss, you're treading on thin ice my friend.

I'm curious, are you implying it's borderline racism, or that he's ripping from somewhere else? If it's the former, I got the impression that Arcane was supposed to be a shadow more than a man, especially since it turned out to be a nerdy white dude, and if it's the latter, what is it from?


The SuperEchoMatrix ridiculousness continues. So her brain is plugged into a computer, it's been done. And twisted dream weirdness, well, The Sopranos perfected that particular storytelling technique in their episode "The Test Dream". And she kills herself only to be resurrected to save the world? Yeah Joss, we already saw that in The Matrix. Even if it all part of a dream.

I don't think because things have been done that they can't ever be done again. I found it all sufficiently different not to feel like I was watching a Matrix rehash or anything. This twisted dreaming was very well done, I think. Especially incorporating the twistedness from all the personalities up in her brain. And as for her saving the world-

It's not going to work, based on what we've seen in Epitaph One.


Still, it's a very fascinating development that the Attic is actually Rossum's processing power. Neat idea, really neat. It's a bit of a plot deus ex machina, but it works.

I would argue it's more rushed than deus ex machina. I imagine Joss wanted to spread it all out over a few more episodes, but the impending death of the show sped it up.


I'm also a bit confused.... on two points: Adele was having Boyd 'arrested'/removed at the end of 2.09. So why is he back at work at the beginning of this episode? And 6 Million Dollar Paul, what happened to the Adele/Ballard stand-off?

I wondered about the Boyd thing too. It was alittle odd just seeing him back to work as if nothing happened. Again, I attribute this to rushing due to show death.


Enjoyed seeing Mr. Dominic and Sierra's dead guy again, though; the lighting/colour palette/cinematography was just fantastic, and it was really cool to see the future/Epitaph vision.

Agreed! Only a 3% chance that it doesn't end in disaster!

Exiled Master
December 19th, 2009, 11:51 PM
It's official: Dollhouse is the transhumanist Prisoner.

pjt
December 20th, 2009, 05:31 AM
The SuperEchoMatrix ridiculousness continues. So her brain is plugged into a computer, it's been done. And twisted dream weirdness, well, The Sopranos perfected that particular storytelling technique in their episode "The Test Dream". And she kills herself only to be resurrected to save the world? Yeah Joss, we already saw that in The Matrix. Even if it all part of a dream.


Matrix? That's just about batteries. Actually it's the Hyperion/Endymion saga that's about using human brain as supercomputer.

But having dollhouses only for rich clients would be too shallow for a series, this actually gives a meaning to it.

It rather makes me angry seeing just how good this series got knowing it's been canceled. Too bad.

HAL2100
December 20th, 2009, 07:17 AM
The SuperEchoMatrix ridiculousness continues. So her brain is plugged into a computer, it's been done. And twisted dream weirdness, well, The Sopranos perfected that particular storytelling technique in their episode "The Test Dream". And she kills herself only to be resurrected to save the world? Yeah Joss, we already saw that in The Matrix. Even if it all part of a dream.

I might point out that it could be said that the Matrix ripped off the brain in the computer bit from other stories. Just because a chef decides to include a side dish that he lifted from another chef doesn't mean that the mean isn't original.

Giantevilhead
December 20th, 2009, 09:58 AM
The Wachowski brothers actually wanted the Matrix to be a super computer using human brains but they thought that it would go over people's heads so they went with the much dumber idea of human batteries.

HAL2100
December 21st, 2009, 08:59 AM
The Wachowski brothers actually wanted the Matrix to be a super computer using human brains but they thought that it would go over people's heads so they went with the much dumber idea of human batteries.

Its not a 'dumber' idea. That the fact that you don't like is no reason to personally attack it.

Giantevilhead
December 21st, 2009, 10:43 AM
Its not a 'dumber' idea. That the fact that you don't like is no reason to personally attack it.

I'm not attacking it, the laws of thermodynamics are attacking it.

You get far more energy from humans by burning them than keeping them alive and leeching off of the body heat and electrical discharge. In order to keep humans alive, you need to put in more useful energy than humans can produce. The energy contained in a donut for example can be used to do a lot more work than the energy generated by humans after they eat the donut.

The human brains as processors makes far more sense. Our brains may not be the fastest processors but they do have incredible parallel processing capabilities. Our brains are essentially 750 hertz processors with about 10 billion hyperthreaded cores.

HAL2100
December 21st, 2009, 03:05 PM
I'm not attacking it, the laws of thermodynamics are attacking it.

You get far more energy from humans by burning them than keeping them alive and leeching off of the body heat and electrical discharge. In order to keep humans alive, you need to put in more useful energy than humans can produce. The energy contained in a donut for example can be used to do a lot more work than the energy generated by humans after they eat the donut.

The human brains as processors makes far more sense. Our brains may not be the fastest processors but they do have incredible parallel processing capabilities. Our brains are essentially 750 hertz processors with about 10 billion hyperthreaded cores.

Its called suspension of disbelief and is the same cosmic force that allows boys who refuse to grow up to fly, British nanny's to take children and jump into sidewalk chalk drawings, little green creatures to telekinetically lift spaceships out of swamps and ships to fly at warp speed.

Giantevilhead
December 21st, 2009, 06:04 PM
Its called suspension of disbelief and is the same cosmic force that allows boys who refuse to grow up to fly, British nanny's to take children and jump into sidewalk chalk drawings, little green creatures to telekinetically lift spaceships out of swamps and ships to fly at warp speed.

Suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far. Just because you can accept that a boy who refuses to grow up can fly doesn't mean it's okay for that boy to suddenly develop the power to turn invisible, telekinetically blast pirates, and shoot lasers out of his eyes.

The Matrix didn't present itself as a "soft science fiction" movie. In fact, it took itself way too seriously. It tried to be like Alien and Terminator where there was some sense of realism and the audience is supposed to think, "hey, all this technology is fantastic but it doesn't seem impossible and we might just be able to develop it in the future."

HAL2100
December 21st, 2009, 06:22 PM
Suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far. Just because you can accept that a boy who refuses to grow up can fly doesn't mean it's okay for that boy to suddenly develop the power to turn invisible, telekinetically blast pirates, and shoot lasers out of his eyes.

The Matrix didn't present itself as a "soft science fiction" movie. In fact, it took itself way too seriously. It tried to be like Alien and Terminator where there was some sense of realism and the audience is supposed to think, "hey, all this technology is fantastic but it doesn't seem impossible and we might just be able to develop it in the future."

Actually, its okay for that boy to suddenly develop the power to turn invisible, telekinetically blast pirates, and shoot lasers out of his eyes if boy is in a movie wherein people in the real world enter video games.


"hey, all this technology is fantastic but it doesn't seem impossible and we might just be able to develop it in the future."

We're much closer to artificial intelligence than you think. That an AI might become sentient or begin acting on its own is only a natural, logical result.

Giantevilhead
December 21st, 2009, 06:51 PM
Actually, its okay for that boy to suddenly develop the power to turn invisible, telekinetically blast pirates, and shoot lasers out of his eyes if boy is in a movie wherein people in the real world enter video games.

But not in Peter Pan. Even fantasy worlds have to have certain sets of rules. Just because there's magic in LotR doesn't mean that Sauron can suddenly open a portal to Oz and call up his old buddy the Wicked Witch of the West, and have her send her flying monkeys to look for the Ring.


We're much closer to artificial intelligence than you think. That an AI might become sentient or begin acting on its own is only a natural, logical result.

But that's not going to allow the artificial intelligence to break the laws of thermodynamics.

A Terminator scenario might actually be possible since nothing in the first two films actually breaks established laws of physics. The Matrix on the other hand is not possible because the whole human battery idea breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

HAL2100
December 22nd, 2009, 10:35 AM
But not in Peter Pan. Even fantasy worlds have to have certain sets of rules. Just because there's magic in LotR doesn't mean that Sauron can suddenly open a portal to Oz and call up his old buddy the Wicked Witch of the West, and have her send her flying monkeys to look for the Ring.



But that's not going to allow the artificial intelligence to break the laws of thermodynamics.

A Terminator scenario might actually be possible since nothing in the first two films actually breaks established laws of physics. The Matrix on the other hand is not possible because the whole human battery idea breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

The characters can do whatever the creators of the project and writer's imagine. Period. If I write a story where Peter Pan can phase in and out of reality and jump between universes, he can phase in and out of reality and jump between universes. Suspension of disbelief is not about what the characters do or the stories, its about the audience 'suspending' their 'disbelief' hence the term.

In the Night at the Museum sequel, I lost all suspension of disbelief when the two main characters ran out of the Air & Space Musuem (or maybe the Castle) and ended up at the Lincoln Memorial in just a couple of minutes. Knowning the Lincoln is at the very FAR end of the reflecting pool there was no way that the characters could have possibly traveled that distance in a few minutes.

In Transformers, the characters are at the Air & Space Museum and the bust out the back wall and are suddenly in a desert area with Mountains. I'm sorry, that was just ridiculous!

In 2012, I started laughing during the scene where they're escaping Vegas on the third instance of a plane taking off as the run way is falling apart.

What was shown on screen in those three instances was beyond my ability to suspend belief, but I'm certain there are those who were more than capable of maintaining that suspension of disbelief - like persons that had never been to DC or kids & teenagers in the case of 2012.

What one person sees as impossible, ridiculous or outlandish, another can see as plausible (within the context of the story).

KatG
December 22nd, 2009, 12:05 PM
^ looks up at topic ^

While this is a fascinating discussion, the topic is the episode "The Attic".

Perhaps the topic of suspension of belief on tv shows/movies would be better served in it's own thread.

HAL2100
December 22nd, 2009, 12:47 PM
^ looks up at topic ^

While this is a fascinating discussion, the topic is the episode "The Attic".

Perhaps the topic of suspension of belief on tv shows/movies would be better served in it's own thread.

The subject of suspension of disbelief arose from issues with Echo having what was called Matrix-like powers and thus able to see 'The Attic' for what it was (not actual reality) and able to move between brains.

KatG
December 22nd, 2009, 04:33 PM
The subject of suspension of disbelief arose from issues with Echo having what was called Matrix-like powers and thus able to see 'The Attic' for what it was (not actual reality) and able to move between brains.

True, but it's moved away from that. If you want to bring it around and tie it back in, then feel free, but if you want to talk more in generalities then it needs to go to another thread.

huntress
January 17th, 2010, 04:20 AM
I just saw the episode. Holy cow, this was just fantastic. So trippy and it is wonderful how little Joss now cares about what Fox is thinking. He just tells the story the way he wants it with a big FYT to Fox. This show has become so fantastic and now it is mostly over. It totally sucks.