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**BrenRen** · 10 January 2010, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

See, but I think there's a very good reason Jack did what he did in Grace, because he'd been wrestling with his own demons for years. And I think coming close to losing Sam again in Grace, as he had in Entity (and D&C) reawakened those fears and led him to intentionally pull away from her again, realizing he'd again gotten to close (as we see by their renewed flirtatiousness in Evolution).

<ducking the four-by-four coming straight for my head>

D'oh!

In all my years hyper-analyzing this particular turning point for the Ship... I can't believe this is the first time I made that connection regarding Jack.

It all makes sense now. I have seen The Light! (And it's shining in my eyes...)

<grabs four-by-four and starts chasing Jack as he leaves Sam in the infirmary>

**JenniferJF** · 10 January 2010, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by BrenRen View Post

<ducking the four-by-four coming straight for my head>

D'oh!

In all my years hyper-analyzing this particular turning point for the Ship... I can't believe this is the first time I made that connection regarding Jack.

It all makes sense now. I have seen The Light! (And it's shining in my eyes...)

<grabs four-by-four and starts chasing Jack as he leaves Sam in the infirmary>

Well...

Jack being Jack, when he *finally* (because Sam was so miserable she had no choice) saw her standing there on his back deck, she didn't even have to clearly express the "I love you I need you Do you still love me Don't leave me" for him to understand it, overcome his own fears in full realization of her fear and pain, and to come through with flying colors.

((Jack))

That's my world and I'm living in it.

**Nynaeve506** · 10 January 2010, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by BrenRen View Post

<ducking the four-by-four coming straight for my head>

D'oh!

In all my years hyper-analyzing this particular turning point for the Ship... I can't believe this is the first time I made that connection regarding Jack.

It all makes sense now. I have seen The Light! (And it's shining in my eyes...)

<grabs four-by-four and starts chasing Jack as he leaves Sam in the infirmary>

BREN!!! - I pointed it out in my Jack Looks!! :: hunts for pictures :: Pictures makes everything SOOOO much easier...

Spoiler:

Wow. Those 100 Looks come in handy

**JenniferJF** · 10 January 2010, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post

BREN!!! - I pointed it out in my Jack Looks!! :: hunts for pictures :: Pictures makes everything SOOOO much easier...

To be fair, you didn't reference the five other episodes you were referring to so unless one understood what you were referring to specifically it was easy to miss... In all seriousness, I've often wished for a footnote feature on Gateworld. It would make everything so much easier (and you can only link so much before it gets weird) But I'm geeky that way.

**UhSir** · 10 January 2010, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

I know... We have irreconcilable differences on that point based on our very different interpretations of Jack's personality and character

. And yet.. no plates thrown! Possibly because we couldn't figure out how to divide Gateworld in the settlement should we divorce.

*hugs Uh!Sir*

*huggles* Wait, how'd you know I throw stuff?

I'm very grateful for our differing view because it helps me to see everything much clearer.

Originally posted by BrenRen View Post

As opposed to the two-ton elephant in the room ever since D&C -- or the whole ice-planet it had to roam after BtS.

"Become" the Sam & Jack show? You mean that's not what you were watching for 10+ years?

But... I sadly must concur, since how the series played out makes is painfully clear that TPTB would not tackle such a slippery slope.

I still don't think it was a necessary route for Sam up until Grace. This 'need for a life outside the Stargate program' didn't seem to me to be a huge life-issue for her. Yeah, she was thoroughly immersed in her work... but as she said to Jack in Nemesis, that was *fun* for her. Where else could she get her hands on such stimulating doohickeys? <SPLASH!!!> And she obviously had a few non-genius-astrophysicist interests, like rebuilding that wicked old Indian, for one thing.
{{snipped}}

Sam's need for life outside was becoming a huge issue.
Her points of debate with Jack in Affinity were not spur of the moment. She'd been stewing over them for quite awhile. She only opened up to him about it because he pressed her to tell him what was going on.
"I just assumed that one day I would have a life."
"Every time we go through the gate we risk not coming back. Is it fair to put somebody else through that?"
"What about kids?" (tick-tock, tick-tock)

**XFchemist** · 10 January 2010, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by BrenRen View Post

As opposed to the two-ton elephant in the room ever since D&C -- or the whole ice-planet it had to roam after BtS.

"Become" the Sam & Jack show? You mean that's not what you were watching for 10+ years?

But... I sadly must concur, since how the series played out makes is painfully clear that TPTB would not tackle such a slippery slope.

I still don't think it was a necessary route for Sam up until Grace. This 'need for a life outside the Stargate program' didn't seem to me to be a huge life-issue for her. Yeah, she was thoroughly immersed in her work... but as she said to Jack in Nemesis, that was *fun* for her. Where else could she get her hands on such stimulating doohickeys? <SPLASH!!!> And she obviously had a few non-genius-astrophysicist interests, like rebuilding that wicked old Indian, for one thing.

But... the way Grace played out... That was really the first time I saw Sam struggling with that aspect of her life. But even then, it wasn't so much her being unsatisfied with not having a life outside the SGC as it was about her own personal inner-insecurity demons when it comes to her love-life. She had lost faith in Jack's feelings for her, and she knew deep down what HallucinationDad told her, that she deserves to love someone and be loved back.

So when she woke up in the infirmary and the first thing she saw was Jack at her bedside, with her emotional defenses down, she reached out to him instinctively and called him by his given name--for the first time since Jolinar let her out for a moment in her bid to convince Jack of her honesty, if I recall correctly. Sam, probably the absolute most terrified she's ever been in her entire life, practically screamed out his name and begged him not to leave her. But he did. Of course, he really didn't have much choice; based on their knowledge of the Goa'uld and their lack of knowledge of the Tok'ra, believing her just wasn't an option, no matter how much it tore him apart inside.

Fast forward five-ish years to Grace. She's weakened, vulnerable, and still quite insecure. She calls out his name. And what does Jack do? Same thing he did the last time she'd called him "Jack": he shuts her down. He kept things friendly but professional. And in that moment, she convinced herself that she'd been right, that Jack no longer 'cared about her a lot more than (he's) supposed to.' And so she did the only thing her concussed brain could: she decided to let go and move on.

Of course, that failed even more miserably than her conversation HallucinationJack.

Thank god.

Please, a pack of Kleenex now!

**BrenRen** · 10 January 2010, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post

BREN!!! - I pointed it out in my Jack Looks!! :: hunts for pictures :: Pictures makes everything SOOOO much easier...

I find it interesting that from the moment Sam gets in the elevator Jack attempts to maintain a neutral expression and look everywhere except at her. Normally he takes advantage of these moments. I suspect that given his emotional reaction in "Grace" he's been slapped on the wrist so to speak. He's been forced to face the fact that the emotions he suffered from three years ago are still as deep as ever... of course... as the elevator goes we see that forced distance through their conversation about Sam's humming...

I got the correlation between his emotional reaction in Grace and his retreat to professional neutrality during Chimera.

What I hadn't connected was the Entity-related withdrawal from her in the infirmary at the end of Grace.

There really are a lot of significant parallels between Entity and Grace, aren't there? Jack storming around and brooding. Scarcely able to contain, never mind conceal, his fear and anguish. Others keenly aware of how affected Jack is by Sam's peril, in spite of his valiant efforts to hide it. Jack keeping watch over Sam in the infirmary. Jack's inability to reach out to her the way he so desperately wishes he could, instead retreating back to shut-down mode.

As Jenn said earlier, this developed over a long period of time, and with some pretty impressive character-continuity, too. And as much as that *Other* arc continues to disgust me... it finally really truly makes sense.

Well, mostly.

**Nynaeve506** · 10 January 2010, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

To be fair, you didn't reference the five other episodes you were referring to so unless one understood what you were referring to specifically it was easy to miss... In all seriousness, I've often wished for a footnote feature on Gateworld. It would make everything so much easier (and you can only link so much before it gets weird) But I'm geeky that way.

Well just stick my head in an opening wormhole why don't ya

Besides I was building on what you said - I just decided to include pictures and what do you mean, doesn't everyone have every episode in their brain catalogue? If not, I'm disappointed...

And I agree, a footnote features would be nice because linkings to get a little cumbersome. But then that makes us sound like we're writing research papers.

**JenniferJF** · 10 January 2010, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post

And I agree, a footnote features would be nice because linkings to get a little cumbersome. But then that makes us sound like we're writing research papers.

Oh... wait.. you mean...

I've often wondered what my profs would think if they knew what use I was putting all those hard learned skills to. Although, at least I'm *using* them.

**Nynaeve506** · 10 January 2010, 11:08 AM

And just to "footnote" here's my Entity Jack Look which adds nothing to conversation but it's JUST SO ANGSTY

Spoiler:

**Nynaeve506** · 10 January 2010, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

Oh... wait.. you mean...

I've often wondered what my profs would think if they knew what use I was putting all those hard learned skills to. Although, at least I'm *using* them.

I wonder what my profs would say if they knew I was putting this much effort into this... probably that I should have put that much effort into their very boring research paper assignments.

This is more fun.

And you know what sucks? That if I had been into this back in college I so could have written my Senior Thesis on this. Really, my prof would have been totally cool with it. :: headdesk :: Instead I wrote about an obscure dead language group. All the sources were in Spanish. And there like five books total. :: starts to have horrible flashbacks ::

**XFchemist** · 10 January 2010, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Twilight506 View Post

I wonder what my profs would say if they knew I was putting this much effort into this... probably that I should have put that much effort into their very boring research paper assignments.

This is more fun.

And you know what sucks? That if I had been into this back in college I so could have written my Senior Thesis on this. Really, my prof would have been totally cool with it. :: headdesk :: Instead I wrote about an obscure dead language group. All the sources were in Spanish. And there like five books total. :: starts to have horrible flashbacks ::

Very much effort, indeed!!! (instead I have a scientific background)

**JenniferJF** · 10 January 2010, 11:29 AM

I have double flashbacks. The horror of getting a BS from a liberal arts school. Though Latin did help with the pronounciation of chemical compounds...

*shudders*

**Nynaeve506** · 10 January 2010, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

I have double flashbacks. The horror of getting a BS from a liberal arts school. Though Latin did help with the pronounciation of chemical compounds...

*shudders*

School OT

Spoiler:

And this is the look Jack would give Sam the moment she said something like that:

**XFchemist** · 10 January 2010, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

Though Latin did help with the pronounciation of chemical compounds...

*shudders*

Really?

well,I don't know Latin, but hey Italian comes from it

I can pronunce chemical compounds in Italian, French, English...(ahah maybe cos it's my job

)

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