Young's actions and his decisions

[Spimman]

Originally Young's character was kind of a reluctant hero that was forced into one more mission, sacrificing time with his wife to lead the rag tag group into the far reaches of the Universe. So pretty much we all love this guy or at least like/respect him pretty early on.

Later we learn that he had an affar with Johanson, has a temper, has been unwilling to follow orders from O'Neil and now to top it off Rush undermines his authority so he attempts murder???

I'm calling this attempted murder because he is alive for now, but we all know that leaving someone on a planet you'll never see again is a death sentence and that was his intention then he lied to cover it up.

[Replicator Todd]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.

[erotavlas]

i think Young is like Rush in a way as well. Just look how he misused the stones for his own agenda to beat up Telford.

[Pharaoh Atem]

young is coping with the situation as best he can. he's a reluctant leader and responsible for the lives (literally) of 81 people i think now.

[Spimman]

Attempted murder = unacceptable.

He just going to start leaving people behind every time they tick im off? Ironic that Rush framed him for murder so he actually tried to murder Rush in return.

Anyone who cheats on there wife is a selfish liar already! This just proves he is the worse kind!

[RJLCyberPunk]

I totally disagree with this assessment, Rush has shown himself to be nothing more than a dangerous sociopath that would kill everyone if it serves his needs without blinking. Young knows this and that made Rush more of a liability than an aid in the situation they are in. Young is interested in the survival of the group he is commanding and their safe return to either earth or at least some planet they can settle in. Rush is only interested in his own ego and aggrandizement and just see everyone else as expendable means to an end with no more worth than disposable diapers for a toddler.

[s09119]

Attempted murder = unacceptable.

He just going to start leaving people behind every time they tick im off? Ironic that Rush framed him for murder so he actually tried to murder Rush in return.

Anyone who cheats on there wife is a selfish liar already! This just proves he is the worse kind!

Being with someone you care about instead of resigning yourself to a loveless marriage is only bad because our society says it is.

[randomking]

Attempted murder = unacceptable.

He just going to start leaving people behind every time they tick im off? Ironic that Rush framed him for murder so he actually tried to murder Rush in return.

Anyone who cheats on there wife is a selfish liar already! This just proves he is the worse kind!

its not selfish if you let your wife joine it right?

[Spimman]

Why lie and hide the evidence then? He lost his temper.

[Avenger]

I totally disagree with this assessment, Rush has shown himself to be nothing more than a dangerous sociopath that would kill everyone if it serves his needs without blinking. Young knows this and that made Rush more of a liability than an aid in the situation they are in. Young is interested in the survival of the group he is commanding and their safe return to either earth or at least some planet they can settle in. Rush is only interested in his own ego and aggrandizement and just see everyone else as expendable means to an end with no more worth than disposable diapers for a toddler.

Agreed. What Young did was extreme, no doubt, but it was necessary. Those who judge what happened from the comfort of their couch are in no position to make an accurate assessment about Young's actions. The same rules that apply to society back home don't apply out in the wilds of space.

[PG15]

Yeah, Young is unravelling.

AND I'M LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT. :D

[WickedWater]

Why lie and hide the evidence then? He lost his temper.

Because Rush was POS who got what he had coming, Hell he knew 1 of his people would feel the strain and sit in the chair, because like Young said, Rush didnt have the guts to sit in it himself.

On a lighter side, i think we will see Rush again(ala Michael), i think he will find a miracle and get that ship going, something just tells me it will happen.

[Replicator Todd]

Yeah, Young is unravelling.

AND I'M LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT. :D

Me too! But will he put himself back together?!

[Spimman]

I do love characters that redeem themselves.

Young will maybe change, although I always saw Rush as the character who would really be redeemed. After his wifes death I assume he become more bitter and stopped caring about others, I figured eventually he would start to care...even if only for Eli or something. I hope he comes back!

[missmobius]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.

no, he's worse cause at least Rush is sexy, Young is not :p

[WickedWater]

Me too! But will he put himself back together?!

Im sorry, everytime i see your username i think of The Todd from Scrubs and i just want to raise a hand and yell REPLICATOR TODD FIVE!!!!

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[missmobius]

Being with someone you care about instead of resigning yourself to a loveless marriage is only bad because our society says it is.

It's called divorce :)

You don't love your spouse any longer?, you either go for counseling or you grow a pair and tell her/him and then go hire a lawyer.

Cheating is NEVER the answer to a bad marriage!!!!!! especially if there are children. Trust me when I say the damage it causes the kids is never ending. It's very rare when children get through a parent's cheating without having issues in relationships later on in their own personal lives.

[Col.Foley]

Young>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rush

that said I really do not see that much of a change in Young, at this point we are still learning about these characters, and we have confirmation now that young is a hot head that likes to let his fists do the talking when they need to. Rush had it coming, though I do not think Young shoulda left him on the planet.

[missmobius]

its not selfish if you let your wife joine it right?

:eek:

[missmobius]

Because Rush was POS who got what he had coming, Hell he knew 1 of his people would feel the strain and sit in the chair, because like Young said, Rush didnt have the guts to sit in it himself.

On a lighter side, i think we will see Rush again(ala Michael), i think he will find a miracle and get that ship going, something just tells me it will happen.

I'm counting on him doing that, and then coming back to ZAP Young into that chair. I don't much like Young. I want Young to suffer, and I want Rush to take over the ship and see what crazy evil things he can do with it, hehehehhee :D

[RJLCyberPunk]

I'm counting on him doing that, and then coming back to ZAP Young into that chair. I don't much like Young. I want Young to suffer, and I want Rush to take over the ship and see what crazy evil things he can do with it, hehehehhee :D

Easy he kills everyone and crowns himself as ruler of the universe! The End!

[StargateBuilder]

Rush could not have gotten anyone near the chair while Young was in charge and he wasn’t going to sit in it himself. Rush figured that the best way to get someone in the chair would be to get Young out of way. Young realized when he was fighting with Rush that he would not change his views. Rush’s definition of the “greater good” would always come before the lives of the crew members. Young was tired of dealing with Rush and the fact that he set up Young for murder so he could get access to the chair (and Rush would have someone sit in the chair to access the information for the "greater good") shows just how dangerous Rush can be. Rush does not care about individual lives, sacrifice is an acceptable loss when it fits Rush's definition of "greater good". The motto “the end justifies the means” definitely describes Rush’s way of thinking.

At the same time Rush didn’t deserve to be stranded on the planet, he should have been brought back but detained for a long time. After that Young would let Rush work but if he got out of line Young would have evidence showing that Rush took the gun.

[Col.Foley]

Rush could not have gotten anyone near the chair while Young was in charge and he wasn’t going to sit in it himself. Rush figured that the best way to get someone in the chair would be to get Young out of way. Young realized when he was fighting with Rush that he would not change his views. Rush’s definition of the “greater good” would always come before the lives of the crew members. Young was tired of dealing with Rush and the fact that he set up Young for murder so he get access to the chair (and Rush would have someone sit in the chair to access the information for the greater good) shows just how dangerous Rush can be. Rush didn’t deserve to be stranded on the planet, he should have brought him back and detained for a long time. After that Young would let Rush work but if he got out of line Young would have evidence showing that Rush took the gun.
You know thats an interesting point, furthur blackmail.

[havishanta]

Personally, I freaked out at the end of the episode. Rush is my favorite character. The main reason why I watched the show every week. So I'm just about bawling now that he's gone. I think it's funny that Young did exactly what Rush framed him to do. Someone (Rush) got out of hand so he took drastic measures (attempted murder) to "benefit" the rest of the ship. I don't like Young's move, though, of leaving him on the island. Yes, Rush was getting a bit messy, but he was the most experienced on the ship for dealing with the Ancient technology. Now they'll be forced to turn to Eli and really, all he knows, or SHOULD know at least since he picked it up from a video game, is the basic Ancient alphabet. I don't know how he even READS all the things he has so far in the series. Also, just from the look on his face, I think Eli knows what really happened, no matter what Young says.

As for the deal on Rush's character, I have to say I disagree. Rush is very bluntly, harshly, and coldly logical. His drive is to obtain knowledge, all due to the loss of his wife (remember in that amazing episode 8, "Time" I think it was called, where he asked Eli if death had motivated him to build or create something?). If there's something that blocks or detains his progress in that, he will find a way around it. Rush had no control over Franklin(?). I don't think it's right that he way blamed for it. And as for the gun, I think his reasoning was logical. That chair could hold the key to getting back to Earth, or furthering their quest. If everyone had sat back and studied the chair a bit longer so that they could make it as safe as possible it all would have been avoided.

More about the gun, I knew it was either two people, Camille or Rush. In fact, I was almost certain it was Camille just because of the way she took power. She's become a frightening force of late.

Moreover, I wonder what the conflicts of Season Two will be now that our three forces and other main conflict-causers are six feet under (or stranded on an Alien Planet! Q_Q)

[Hibblette]

Rush didn't try to kill Young-he just had him taken out of command.

And in regards to the chair-I don't think Rush wanted anyone to sit in it-he knows it needs to be researched and that's what he was doing.

Young is crazy-Captain Bligh.

[PG15]

On the contrary, I think Rush thinks that the only way to research the chair is to have someone sit in it and see what happens.

Ah, those silly experimentalists. :D

[Ashman]

Young's Character finally did something about Rush. Harsh as it was, Rush will be back anyway. In Young's defense he did ask if Rush would stop!

[Vapor]

People calling what Young did "murder"... The word doesn't sit well with me. I mean, I don't agree with what he did, but people are just assuming that there's no way for Rush to survive at all. They established that there may be some vegetation on the planet, and there's a ship.

I'm not saying there's a super-duper amazing chance for him, but in Young's state of mind, I can see that he felt he had few options at that point. He knew Rush was capable of more craziness even if they both went back and Rush was placed under constant surveillance.

And it seems obvious to me that Rush wanted someone to sit in the chair, and if someone had to die for him to prove/disprove his theories, so be it. So I don't feel comfortable saying he was any better than Young. Particularly when you consider all the other little things he could be guilty of.

They were both wrong about a number of things, but they both had legitimate reasons for taking certain actions at the same time. There's no pure good or evil between them. They're stuck in a terrible situation and it's forced them to do terrible things.

Which, as a viewer, I'm fine with, by the way. It's intense. lol

[garhkal]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.

Worse. Rush has yet to actually hurt anyone. Young has beaten up telford in someone elses' body, smacked around Spencer and now stranded their most valuable scientist after beating him up.

NOW i fully agreed with Young for smacking rush around, but leaving him behind imo was a massive no no.


Rush didn't try to kill Young-he just had him taken out of command.

Correct. Young's response was way out of proportion to Rushes action. If anything he should have hauled rush back and publically humiliated him, knocking him out of the 'science' team.. Stranding him the way he did, espceially with him lying about why he was left behind and how he had the injuries showed yet again Young cares more for himself than he does for others.


People calling what Young did "murder"... The word doesn't sit well with me. I mean, I don't agree with what he did, but people are just assuming that there's no way for Rush to survive at all. They established that there may be some vegetation on the planet, and there's a ship.

Murder is the correct term though. BY his actions he can cause the death of rush (how is he going to get water?? WE saw lots of desert/rock areas but no rivers etc). Since he also lied about it, that compounds it imo.

[Major_Griff]

Young leaving Rush behind wasn't payback for the frame job. The beating would have sufficed for that. He left him behind because of what happened to Franklin (he's the one that sat in the chair right?) and because Rush basically told him he was going to keep doing things like the frame up, and getting Franklin to sit in the chair, regardless of lives lost, when ever he needed something done. He did it for the safety of the entire crew. I don't know if I agree with what he did, but Rush was a menace that needed to be dealt with, so I certainly can't fault Young for leaving him behind.

[Vapor]

Murder is the correct term though. BY his actions he can cause the death of rush (how is he going to get water?? WE saw lots of desert/rock areas but no rivers etc). Since he also lied about it, that compounds it imo.

Well whether or not he lied doesn't make it any more or less of a murder. It just makes his willingness to allow others to know what he did more questionable. Which is clearly a trait that he shares with Rush.

[pipi]

Attempted murder = unacceptable.

He just going to start leaving people behind every time they tick im off? Ironic that Rush framed him for murder so he actually tried to murder Rush in return.

Anyone who cheats on there wife is a selfish liar already! This just proves he is the worse kind!

If taken in military context in times of war (or distress in SGU's case) it's not called murder. It's called executing a traitor who tried to undermine the leadership. Like shooting deserters. The alternative is incaceration on ship for how long? How many years does that get you for framing someone for murder? How much food is he going to eat and not be able to do anything... well I don't think that is very realistic, so common law should not apply and there isn't really any jurisdiction since it's in friggen outer space somewhere.

[Col.Foley]

If taken in military context in times of war (or distress in SGU's case) it's not called murder. It's called executing a traitor who tried to undermine the leadership. Like shooting deserters. The alternative is incaceration on ship for how long? How many years does that get you for framing someone for murder? How much food is he going to eat and not be able to do anything... well I don't think that is very realistic, so common law should not apply and there isn't really any jurisdiction since it's in friggen outer space somewhere.
:indeed:
Not to mention what bugs me is he has been trying to atone for his previous actions by going back to his wife, and by trying to be there for her...despite being on the other side of the universe. It probably explains why he is so messed up in the first place.

Again a character with a lot of potential, but needs to find himself.

[Major_Griff]

If taken in military context in times of war (or distress in SGU's case) it's not called murder. It's called executing a traitor who tried to undermine the leadership. Like shooting deserters. The alternative is incaceration on ship for how long? How many years does that get you for framing someone for murder? How much food is he going to eat and not be able to do anything... well I don't think that is very realistic, so common law should not apply and there isn't really any jurisdiction since it's in friggen outer space somewhere.

Indeed. I suspect He wanted to keep the video incase he ever needed to show his superiors evidence of Rush's traitorous ways, and only lied to the crew to maintain his leadership since they wouldn't see it that way.

[Angel1964]

Ok- I must say I was totally shocked by the end. I do agree with some posters that leaving Rush behind on the planet was akin to murder and I do not think it was appropriate vs. Rush's actions - yes he tried to frame Young, but he did not force Franklin to use the chair so stranding him was like a death sentence.

I did not like it either that Young lied to the rest of the group about why Rush was not coming through the gate. I would have preferred to have seen Rush being exposed in front of the whole crew for what he had done, so everyone knew he had tried to frame Young.
I think this was an opportunity missed to set the record straight and keep everything above board, which is what Young chose to do when he was first framed and the whole tribual scenario started.

So far I have seen Young as a very sympathetic character ( his maritial issues do not bother me) but the retaliation and consequences disturb me somewhat and I feel this was out of character for him.

Now of course Rush told him to his face that he ( Young) wasn't ready to lead and cited that he had stepped down from being an SG leader as he did not want to make these life and death decisions any longer.
Well he made one right there...( presumptive death for Rush)

Now of course we know Rush will be back .... and I really wonder what this will mean for the two characters butting heads going forward in the second part of the season. It will be interesting how this can come together in future episodes....

[Khentkawes]

Young is starting to scare me.

First, I just thought he was paranoid (based on his wild accusation against Rush at the end of Light... which I still think Young was wrong about). But after the past two episodes, I don't think I can trust him. He has a violent temper and keeps beating up people who make him mad. It's also really hard to tell what will set him off. I expected him to confront Rush, but I didn't expect him to beat him up and leave him to die.

As for the debate about whether it is or isn't murder... it's attempted murder. Although Rush will undoubtedly survive, Young stranded him with no supplies and no means of survival. That's a death sentence. It was pre-meditated (hence the reason Young sent everyone else back) and Young knew it was essentially murder, which is why he tried to cover it up. I could see the argument that Young was just punishing Rush for treason if Young hadn't tried to make it look like an accident and if the fist fight hadn't looked so personal. Plus Young already said that he won't rule the ship by force. So I don't think it was disciplinary so much as it was motivated by Young's personal anger.

There are moments when I find Young to be a strong and ethical leader... and then there are moments like this. He scares me. But I can't wait to see what happens next. :D


I think it's funny that Young did exactly what Rush framed him to do. Someone (Rush) got out of hand so he took drastic measures (attempted murder) to "benefit" the rest of the ship.

:indeed: There's some serious irony right there.


Worse. Rush has yet to actually hurt anyone. Young has beaten up telford in someone elses' body, smacked around Spencer and now stranded their most valuable scientist after beating him up.

You could argue that Rush is more than willing to sacrifice people for the "greater good" or to achieve what he sees as the necessary ends. But I do agree that we haven't actually seen him hurt anyone. I'm not sure if he's violent enough to physically harm someone. I'm also don't think he's cruel. However, he can be ruthless if he feels like there is a reason to be.

On the other hand, I'm starting to get the feeling that Young uses physical violence to blow off steam.

BTW... how did Young get away with beating up Telford? I expected to see some consequences of that action.

[megablue]

Rush is the best chance of the entire crew survival and bring them back to Earth... Young had made a very emotional decision by leaving Rush behind. Perhaps, Young was being provoked by what Rush said to him - "you're not capable for making hard decision"... As a result he tried to proof he can make hard decision for leaving Rush behind. At the moment he might be thinking that without Rush the entire crew will be safer.

[haloplayer]

Ok Young puts down Rush for framing him for murder. What Rush did was absolutely wrong....

but does one wrong make another wrong right? NO

Young in a sense tried to murder Rush, and in my opinion what he did is just as bad as actually doing it.

He planned it out.

Young sent the rest of the away team back to the gate. He does not expect Rush to survive, and im sure left him with no supplies or a gun.

He expected Rush to die, which he should be since there is supposedly no way of that rock.

We as the audience know that Rush will survive (main cast) and will fix up the alien ship...but Young did not plan on him doing that since Rush told him he couldn't get the door open.

List of Young's not so good acts:

1. He is a Rapist (this is a fact, see the episode Earth for more info)
2. Attempted murder (leaving Rush on the planet, at least Rush did not try to kill him)
3. Used deception to beat up Telford (yes i know Telford is a jerk, doesn't justify it)


Neither Rush and him are suited to command the ship. What they need is an Adama like commander....which they don't have....sadly.

Thoughts on this issue?

[MattSilver 3k]

I think both of them are inherently flawed - Rush is the kind to take advantage of a good situation, and Young's no slouch at lying either (Remember his story at the end of Justice? I think he'll stick with that.) and he's good in a fight!

That Young is a rapist for using Telford's body for consensual sex with his wife is debatable. Morally questionable either way, but rape is another topic entirely (Who says Telford or the other stoners didn't sign off on their body being used for a conjugal visit?).

Bottom line is that they're both a little fuzzy in the leadership areas, though there's plenty of room for improvement and redemption, the latter being a great driving force for potential character arcs.

[The Swarm]

I think they diserve eachother. I'd go further and say Young if the bigger one since he left Rush to die.

[JackO'Neill]

I never liked Young & I find it hard to believe that this man looked up to & admired Jack O'Neill get the **** outta here. I will just say that line was forced

[eonflux]

Ok Young puts down Rush for framing him for murder. What Rush did was absolutely wrong....

but does one wrong make another wrong right? NO

Young in a sense tried to murder Rush, and in my opinion what he did is just as bad as actually doing it.

He planned it out.


Speculation: Your argument would not hold up in court.
1. They entered the gate on a voluntary basis.
2. What evidence of murder do you have. Leaving someone somewhere without provisions, even if it leads to there death is not murder. The only thing that comes close would be criminal negligence. And in this case very hard to prove.

Young: are we done? Rush: We are never done



Young sent the rest of the away team back to the gate. He does not expect Rush to survive, and im sure left him with no supplies or a gun.

He expected Rush to die, which he should be since there is supposedly no way of that rock.

More speculation: Because you cannot prove the intent. Exp: I ask to discuss something with you in closed quarters. The discussion gets so heated I end up killing you. You still can't prove I intended to kill you.



We as the audience know that Rush will survive (main cast) and will fix up the alien ship...but Young did not plan on him doing that since Rush told him he couldn't get the door open.

More speculation



List of Young's not so good acts:
1. He is a Rapist (this is a fact, see the episode Earth for more info)
2. Attempted murder (leaving Rush on the planet, at least Rush did not try to kill him)
3. Used deception to beat up Telford (yes i know Telford is a jerk, doesn't justify it)

Neither Rush and him are suited to command the ship. What they need is an Adama like commander....which they don't have....sadly.

Thoughts on this issue?
1. uh What....?
2. What Rush did was tamper with evidence. Depending where you live. Withhold information in a hearing. Thats all jail time.
3. You answered your own :)

Adama is just like both of them. Flawed.
What Rush did was despicable. That could have ended really badly if some decided to hold court.
If it was me personal on that planet I would have shot him in the face and left him there.
As a leader I would have made the Kino public. In the end it would have done Rush more damage and remove the god status he has right now.

[Maddog316]

+1 for eonFlux!

[Taiko]

It's called divorce :)

You don't love your spouse any longer?, you either go for counseling or you grow a pair and tell her/him and then go hire a lawyer.

Cheating is NEVER the answer to a bad marriage!!!!!! especially if there are children. Trust me when I say the damage it causes the kids is never ending. It's very rare when children get through a parent's cheating without having issues in relationships later on in their own personal lives.

Sounds great in theory but as I write this there are two nations on Earth, Malta and the Philippines and one of the great religions where divorce is not an option.

People seperate and in more cases just cheat a few days a week. If the children find out the new friend is referred to as Aunt or Uncle. While the children if produced are brother and sister.

[SoulReaver]

'tis attempted murder all right. now if Rush had tried to kill him too then he might have had *some* excuse
disagree about the 'rapist' part though (not that it changes much at this point)

[Phenomenological]

Young's character is becoming dangerously unstable. He's violent, impulsive, dishonest, and just stranded their best scientist. Not to mention all the stuff with his wife. At the beginning of the series I liked him, but after a couple of recent episodes I think I'm rooting for him to be...permanently incapacitated, shall we say.

[The Swarm]

Speculation: Your argument would not hold up in court.
1. They entered the gate on a voluntary basis.
2. What evidence of murder do you have. Leaving someone somewhere without provisions, even if it leads to there death is not murder. The only thing that comes close would be criminal negligence. And in this case very hard to prove.

Young: are we done? Rush: We are never done


More speculation: Because you cannot prove the intent. Exp: I ask to discuss something with you in closed quarters. The discussion gets so heated I end up killing you. You still can't prove I intended to kill you.


More speculation


1. uh What....?
2. What Rush did was tamper with evidence. Depending where you live. Withhold information in a hearing. Thats all jail time.
3. You answered your own :)

Adama is just like both of them. Flawed.
What Rush did was despicable. That could have ended really badly if some decided to hold court.
If it was me personal on that planet I would have shot him in the face and left him there.
As a leader I would have made the Kino public. In the end it would have done Rush more damage and remove the god status he has right now.

Criminal negligence is an excuse for killing with a lack of evidence.

I agree that what Rush did was despicable but he didnt diserve that excuse for a death sentence.
It seems that Young's sense of justice is to beat the crap out of anyone that does him wrong, just as he did with Telford.


Oh, i almost forgot:

Adama was an angel compared to them.

[JackO'Neill]

I hope Young's wife get preggers with Telford's kid. Mwahaha make Young suffer even more

[aretood2]

Criminal negligence is an excuse for killing with a lack of evidence.

I agree that what Rush did was despicable but he didnt diserve that excuse for a death sentence.
It seems that Young's sense of justice is to beat the crap out of anyone that does him wrong, just as he did with Telford.


Oh, i almost forgot:

Adama was an angel compared to them.
In times of old, you'd get worse than being marooned for framing the captain of a ship. What Young did was offhanded, but not equatable to murder. However his lies do not help.

Framing is no just doing some one wrong, it is a serious crime that ruins lives. If it were up to me, framing someone for murder should be a capital offense.

So was young right? no
But does this make him a bad person? Imperfect, yes but bad, NO

[JackO'Neill]

You know thats an interesting point, furthur blackmail.

But then Young also lied to the crew about Rush. When Rush comes back I can not imagine anyone on that ship trusting Young thinking it could happen to them

[aretood2]

Being with someone you care about instead of resigning yourself to a loveless marriage is only bad because our society says it is.

It's not loveless since he does love his wife. She still has emotions for him, his affair is not cause of a loveless marriage.

And people are underplaying Rushes actions. Do some research on what happens when a crew tries to undermine its captain in colonial times...death. Marooning someone is not murder, and rush most definitely deserved it in Young's eyes.

In his eyes Rush is responsible for
1. Them being stuck in space
2. One guy in a coma
3. Framing him for murder
4. conspiring against the ship's captain

The only problem is that Young lied.

[JackO'Neill]

The only problem is that Young lied.

It is VERY BIG ASS LIE though. It will bite Young in the ass HARD with the crew when Rush returns. The crew will be thinking Young could do that to them. It may be a lie but it is a HUGE ONE. The crew will not know who to trust when they find out that Young told a very big lie

[The Swarm]

So you're actualy aplaudeing his behaviour?
If one of them doesnt break this circle of screwing eachother over then both should be marooned on a planet, becouse they're little personal vendetta endangers the life of the crew.

[aretood2]

It is VERY BIG ASS LIE though. It will bite Young in the ass HARD with the crew when Rush returns. The crew will be thinking Young could do that to them. It may be a lie but it is a HUGE ONE. The crew will not know who to trust when they find out that Young told a very big lie

True, but better then than now. Hopfully by then The Aliens will put their differences aside

[smooTh__]

Rush has shown himself to be nothing more than a dangerous sociopath that would kill everyone if it serves his needs without blinking.


Disagree. Rush is able to make the "hard" decisions, whether you agree with his decisions is one thing, but what he does is generally what he believes will benifit the majority of the crew.

[Phenomenological]

So you're actualy aplaudeing his behaviour?
If one of them doesnt break this circle of screwing eachother over then both should be marooned on a planet, becouse they're little personal vendetta endangers the life of the crew.

For Rush it isn't a personal vendetta. He thinks Young is a terrible commander and wants to be able to do his work without Young getting in the way. That's an objection to the way he commands, not a personal vendetta. Telford Vs Young is personal. And Young has now made the disagreement with Rush personal...That man needs to get control of his emotions.

[aretood2]

So you're actualy aplaudeing his behaviour?
If one of them doesnt break this circle of screwing eachother over then both should be marooned on a planet, becouse they're little personal vendetta endangers the life of the crew.

Applauding, no
Understanding, yes

It seems that Young's paranoia was not misplaced to begin with. Rush needed to be dealt with, while I agree that he could have gone about this in a better way, Young played it by Rush's rules
The ends justify the means.

[Mr chuckles]

Rush, I think deserved what he got, he manipulated everyone, all in the aim of getting someone in the chair, because the ends justify the means. It all started with framing Young. He took the gun and placed it in Young's quarters. When the gun was found he knew Young would be implicated and either way would lose leadership of the Destiny crew. With Wray in charge she would allow Rush and a science team to work on the chair unrestricted. He made a speech saying the chair is their only way home. He gave each of them shifts knowing full well one of them would plonk their asses in it since they couldn't use their tech to interface with it. When Young found out that Franklin sat in it he knew that Rush manipulated him into it. When Eli found the recording of Spencer killing himself and Young saw it, he made a point of getting Rush to see it so as to gauge his reaction. The way he looked after viewing it confirmed to Young what he knew. That's why he made a point of going with him to the planet after telling everyone to go to the gate he confronted Rush. After the scrap and Rush telling him they're never done, You ng decided to leave him there, otherwise he would continue to keep manipulating people. And having put one guy in a comatose state, Young didn't want to take any chances about the rest of the crew's safety.

[JackO'Neill]

Rush, I think deserved what he got, he manipulated everyone, all in the aim of getting someone in the chair, because the ends justify the means. It all started with framing Young. He took the gun and placed it in Young's quarters. When the gun was found he knew Young would be implicated and either way would lose leadership of the Destiny crew. With Wray in charge she would allow Rush and a science team to work on the chair unrestricted. He made a speech saying the chair is their only way home. He gave each of them shifts knowing full well one of them would plonk their asses in it since they couldn't use their tech to interface with it. When Young found out that Franklin sat in it he knew that Rush manipulated him into it. When Eli found the recording of Spencer killing himself and Young saw it, he made a point of getting Rush to see it so as to gauge his reaction. The way he looked after viewing it confirmed to Young what he knew. That's why he made a point of going with him to the planet after telling everyone to go to the gate he confronted Rush. After the scrap and Rush telling him they're never done, Young decided to leave him there, otherwise he would continue to keep manipulating people.

Rush may manipulate but hes honest about it he does not hide it. Unlike Young

[aretood2]

Rush may manipulate but hes honest about it he does not hide it. Unlike Young

Framing some one for murder is the furthest thing from being honest. It is down right repulsive and deceitful.
He has also lied about the Icarus like planet, Doubt that that's honesty.

[JackO'Neill]

Framing some one for murder is the furthest thing from being honest. It is down right repulsive and deceitful.
He has also lied about the Icarus like planet, Doubt that that's honesty.

At least with the Icarus lie he did what Young wanted. Tried to get everyone more hopeful & everyone was. That one lie was understandable. Right now nothing is getting done besides personal vendettas lol

[aretood2]

At least with the Icarus lie he did what Young wanted. Tried to get everyone more hopeful & everyone was. That one lie was understandable. Right now nothing is getting done besides personal vendettas lol

And if Young told the truth, it would make things worse. It would divide the ship and make things impossible. So if you can pass Rush's lie why not Young's?

[JackO'Neill]

And if Young told the truth, it would make things worse. It would divide the ship and make things impossible. So if you can pass Rush's lie why not Young's?

Because we the audience know that when Rush comes back Young better be called out by the crew & it will make things worse anyway. Hopefully Wray tells Earth about this & how both Young & Rush are incapable to command they put her or a civilian in charge & Young loses command again

[Mr chuckles]

I think they just need to get a room. Although I'd rather see TJ, Lt James and Chloe get a room.

[General Jumper One]

I really hate Young now after what he did to Rush!!!

[aretood2]

Because we the audience know that when Rush comes back Young better be called out by the crew & it will make things worse anyway. Hopefully Wray tells Earth about this & how both Young & Rush are incapable to command they put her or a civilian in charge & Young loses command again

Hold it right there, As of now it is impossible for Rush to leave the planet. With that in mind, young "knew" that Rush would never come back. Obviously it is safe to assume, since Rush is the star, that he will come back.

Those two should get a body swap and have their host bodies put in a medically induced coma for a while.

[JackO'Neill]

When Rush does comes back I can totally see Wray using this & telling Earth what has been going on so she can get command officially

[JackO'Neill]

Hold it right there, As of now it is impossible for Rush to leave the planet. With that in mind, young "knew" that Rush would never come back. Obviously it is safe to assume, since Rush is the star, that he will come back

& when Rush DOES come back it better completely divide the ship & neither Young or Rush gets command. If anything lock both men up for a while

[Jeff-B]

Young's actions broke the First Cardinal Rule of the entire Stargate franchise: "We don't leave people behind." Even if they're manipulative jerks. The worst part is, the military contingent ( at least Scott, Greer, and TJ) have shown that they would be 100% loyal to Young no matter what and most likely even if the truth of the incident was revealed. I think Young may have been better served if he had simply revealed the truth to the crew and "demoted" Rush.

To add, seems Rush may have been the better one to do the psych evaluations. Remember, he didn't tell anyone to sit in that chair. If I recall, he specifically told them not to. He just used some psychological manipulation, knowing that eventually someone would do it.

[aretood2]

Young's actions broke the First Cardinal Rule of the entire Stargate franchise: "We don't leave people behind." Even if they're manipulative jerks. The worst part is, the military contingent ( at least Scott, Greer, and TJ) have shown that they would be 100% loyal to Young no matter what and most likely even if the truth of the incident was revealed. I think Young may have been better served if he had simply revealed the truth to the crew and "demoted" Rush.

...anyone know the naval punishment for marooning someone?

[rlr149]

Murder is the correct term though.

no it isn't, someone has to die for a "murder";) rush isn't dead.

"harsh exile" might be more apt. or "marooned".


BY his actions he can cause the death of rush

i drive a car. am i a murderer now? despite not having killed anyone with it.
(how is he going to get water?? WE saw lots of desert/rock areas but no rivers etc).
we didn't see rush dead either, but its still murder according to you.

Since he also lied about it, that compounds it imo.
meh, everybody lies when it suits them. no exceptions.

[caelestes]

It was Young's choice to do what he did. So it is okay and not murder. Modern society has progressed and is progressing beyond the concept of having to put up with the life of someone you don't like or is inconvenient to have around. In fact, the concept of murder is now unconstitutional in most of western world and only a matter of time before the laws finish changing to reflect it. Young is a good man, and was in a bad spot at the time he did what he did with much pressure bearing down on him from many sides. We should not judge him. It was his right to choose what he did to Rush, and deserves his privacy. So please leave him alone. I can't believe the amount of hatred that has been shown here by condemning what he did. If you don't believe in deliberately abandoning someone to death, then don't do it. Stop judging others. :(

[Encoder]

Man this episode certainly opened my eyes about Young!

I would never have thought that he was capable of such a thing.

Rush really is screwed!

:sheppard:

[General Jumper One]

He broke the Stargate Modo or whatever...
we don't leave our people behind no matter how bad they are.

[SoulReaver]

Murder is the correct term though. minor correction : attempted murder :daniel:

[eonflux]

...anyone know the naval punishment for marooning someone?

Marooned people where given provisions and a pistol to commit suicide.
But technically this is marooning. Cant believe this still happened in the 19th century.

I find this very strange and worthy of a study why people find what young did more terrible than what Rush did. On Earth or in a make shift court Young could have received considerable jail time for what Rush did.
Also when rush gets back what proof does he have it didn't go as Young said. For that matter people could think he was spiteful for him being left behind. Resulting in hear say and more speculation. No definite outcome.

I am 100% sure Rush will not mention what happened on that planet. Because he also had a hand in the whole thing.
This is going to give writers a big headache. Because if this was a normal situation the would try to back stab each other constantly. From the looks Rush had when young just made it back on time from the iceplanet you can conclude he was hoping to get rid of rush for a long time.

[s09119]

He broke the Stargate Modo or whatever...
we don't leave our people behind no matter how bad they are.

Both SG-1 and Sheppard's team left people behind, especially if they were bad people...

[rlr149]

Marooned people where given provisions and a pistol to commit suicide.
But technically this is marooning. Cant believe this still happened in the 19th century.

rush has a spaceship, how many marooned people were given a boat? broken or otherwise.

[Major_Griff]

People seem to be missing the fact that Rush manipulated everything that happened in Justice to get Franklin to sit in the chair. No he didn't force him, but he kept saying "this chair is our only hope to get home". Of course some one was eventually going to sit in the chair. This is why Young marooned him. Rush said "we're never going to be done" meaning he was going to continue to use the crew members as chess pieces to achieve his goal regardless of loss of life. Franklin isn't dead yet, but unless the Asgard show up, he will be soon. Young had to leave him behind for the safety of the crew.

And I honestly don't think it was premeditated. I think he told the others to leave cause he was planning to give Rush a whoopin' (which is pretty bad in and of itself). I don't think he made the decision to leave him behind until he said "We'll never be done" thing. Right then is when he made the decision, imo.

[aretood2]

It was Young's choice to do what he did. So it is okay and not murder. Modern society has progressed and is progressing beyond the concept of having to put up with the life of someone you don't like or is inconvenient to have around. In fact, the concept of murder is now unconstitutional in most of western world and only a matter of time before the laws finish changing to reflect it. Young is a good man, and was in a bad spot at the time he did what he did with much pressure bearing down on him from many sides. We should not judge him. It was his right to choose what he did to Rush, and deserves his privacy. So please leave him alone. I can't believe the amount of hatred that has been shown here by condemning what he did. If you don't believe in deliberately abandoning someone to death, then don't do it. Stop judging others. :(
HI!
I will destroy your point now :)

What young did was actually legal a few hundred years ago. Rush is a mutineer by conspiring against the captain (Young). Death would actually have been the right course of action. But yes, Young was wrong and should answer for it. However Young did nothing that Rush would not have done himself.

His lies were done to keep the crew from going crazy, remember that Young does not know that Rush is the star of the show and thus must return. So as far as young knows, only divine intervention can bring rush back. So better there be peace than mayhem.

Murder is the act of killing. If I kidnap you and drop you of in the desert would the state charge me of murder? I want fact not opinion here, any cases in real life that would answer this question?

[Major_Griff]

HI!
Murder is the act of killing. If I kidnap you and drop you of in the desert would the state charge me of murder? I want fact not opinion here, any cases in real life that would answer this question?

Well I think that there's a law in the US that if you are in the act of committing a crime, and someone dies for any reason, you can be charged with murder. For example, you're robbing a bank, and one of the tellers has a heart attack and dies, you can be charged with murder.


But I do agree with you that calling this murder is extreme. Young did it to protect the crew.

[Commander Zelix]

Frankly, I don't know why Young lied about what happened. Rush admitted he framed Young. They had a fight. Then their was no time to come back to the gate. I would consider "being framed for a murder I didn't commit" as mitigating circumstances.

[caelestes]

HI!
I will destroy your point now :)

What young did was actually legal a few hundred years ago. Rush is a mutineer by conspiring against the captain (Young). Death would actually have been the right course of action. But yes, Young was wrong and should answer for it. However Young did nothing that Rush would not have done himself.

His lies were done to keep the crew from going crazy, remember that Young does not know that Rush is the star of the show and thus must return. So as far as young knows, only divine intervention can bring rush back. So better there be peace than mayhem.

Murder is the act of killing. If I kidnap you and drop you of in the desert would the state charge me of murder? I want fact not opinion here, any cases in real life that would answer this question?

So you agree with me then. Young did nothing wrong. There are many bigots on this forum. It is a person's private choice to kill someone else. It is not murder because it is fully okay to kill someone else, or even just to attempt it. I have learned that it is okay to kill children at ones will. It is no different than with adults. I don't care if Young had Rush tied up kneeling on the floor and used his gun to shoot him in the back of the head because Rush sneezed. There is nothing wrong with something like that. Young made a tough decision, but it was his private choice to make. People should be showing Young compassion for having to have made such a hard choice, not villainizing him as some sort of possible murderer. Murder is okay in today's world. Only bigots and fanatics disagree.

[aretood2]

So you agree with me then. Young did nothing wrong. There are many bigots on this forum. It is a person's private choice to kill someone else. It is not murder because it is fully okay to kill someone else, or even just to attempt it. I have learned that it is okay to kill children at ones will. It is no different than with adults. I don't care if Young had Rush tied up kneeling on the floor and used his gun to shoot him in the back of the head because Rush sneezed. There is nothing wrong with something like that. Young made a tough decision, but it was his private choice to make. People should be showing Young compassion for having to have made such a hard choice, not villainizing him as some sort of possible murderer. Murder is okay in today's world. Only bigots and fanatics disagree.


HI!
I will destroy your point now :)

What young did was actually legal a few hundred years ago. Rush is a mutineer by conspiring against the captain (Young). Death would actually have been the right course of action. But yes, Young was wrong and should answer for it. However Young did nothing that Rush would not have done himself.

His lies were done to keep the crew from going crazy, remember that Young does not know that Rush is the star of the show and thus must return. So as far as young knows, only divine intervention can bring rush back. So better there be peace than mayhem.

Murder is the act of killing. If I kidnap you and drop you of in the desert would the state charge me of murder? I want fact not opinion here, any cases in real life that would answer this question?

What are you going on about exactly? No one is exonerating Young. Your definition of murder is,imo, too wide. It seems to me that you would have soldiers thrown in jail for murder (killing the enemy).



There are many bigots on this forum. It is a person's private choice to kill someone else.
No one has suggested this


It is not murder because it is fully okay to kill someone else, or even just to attempt it. I have learned that it is okay to kill children at ones will. It is no different than with adults.
No one has even thought to suggest this


I don't care if Young had Rush tied up kneeling on the floor and used his gun to shoot him in the back of the head because Rush sneezed. There is nothing wrong with something like that.
Are you equating framing some one for murder to sneezing?


Young made a tough decision, but it was his private choice to make. People should be showing Young compassion for having to have made such a hard choice, not villainizing him as some sort of possible murderer. Murder is okay in today's world. Only bigots and fanatics disagree.
?

[caelestes]

No one should go to jail for murder. It is the personal choice of the murderer to kill someone. Or to even attempt it. No one has the right to take away someone's right to choose to kill people. No right to invade that person's privacy of choosing to kill or attempt to kill someone else. It has been like this at least since 1973 here in the United States. Everyone who disagrees with what Young did has nothing but hate in their heart. He had the right to do what he wanted with his body. Even if it includes pulling the trigger of a gun with his own finger. If Rush lives, he has the right to do what he wants with his body, including murdering Young if he wants. Or the entire crew. Rush shouldn't have to share the same air with the rest. It is invading his privacy. It is his body, and he can do anything he wants with it. Stop judging these characters. It is already hard on them as it is to do things like this.

[Major_Griff]

No one should go to jail for murder. It is the personal choice of the murderer to kill someone. Or to even attempt it. No one has the right to take away someone's right to choose to kill people. No right to invade that person's privacy of choosing to kill or attempt to kill someone else. It has been like this at least since 1973 here in the United States. Everyone who disagrees with what Young did has nothing but hate in their heart. He had the right to do what he wanted with his body. Even if it includes pulling the trigger of a gun with his own finger. If Rush lives, he has the right to do what he wants with his body, including murdering Young if he wants. Or the entire crew. Rush shouldn't have to share the same air with the rest. It is invading his privacy. It is his body, and he can do anything he wants with it. Stop judging these characters. It is already hard on them as it is to do things like this.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're a sociopath.

[Commander Zelix]

No one should go to jail for murder. It is the personal choice of the murderer to kill someone. Or to even attempt it. No one has the right to take away someone's right to choose to kill people. No right to invade that person's privacy of choosing to kill or attempt to kill someone else. It has been like this at least since 1973 here in the United States. Everyone who disagrees with what Young did has nothing but hate in their heart. He had the right to do what he wanted with his body. Even if it includes pulling the trigger of a gun with his own finger. If Rush lives, he has the right to do what he wants with his body, including murdering Young if he wants. Or the entire crew. Rush shouldn't have to share the same air with the rest. It is invading his privacy. It is his body, and he can do anything he wants with it. Stop judging these characters. It is already hard on them as it is to do things like this.

I knew Bush Jr's antic about freedom while murdering people in the middle east would get into someone head at one time or another. :D

[aretood2]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or if you're a sociopath.

He seems unresponsive. That could only mean one thing...Troll.

[Major_Griff]

He seems unresponsive. That could only mean one thing...Troll.

Indeed.

[Commander Zelix]

He seems unresponsive. That could only mean one thing...Troll.
Maybe he was just doing his Klingon impression. :)

[caelestes]

I'm being truthful. Why should we hold the crew of the destiny to higher standards of morality than what is held here on Earth. The law of the Western World declares it a right to murder others for the reason of privacy. And neocons like Zelix still worship Bush. So much hatred.

[Kaiphantom]

Why isn't John Sheppard on trial for killing a man, by convincing him to get his life to a wraith feeding? Why isn't anyone on trial for the Senator going into the shuttle to close it and die?

There's a lot of hypocritical words being thrown about here. Be very sure of what you are arguing before you start typing.

Whether you wanna call it murder or attempted murder, the end result is that what Young did was wrong. He's been hounding Rush since day 1. I'll repeat a quote from an old Andy Capp comic: "You keep treating me like a dog, and don't be surprised when I bite you."

Was Rush's actions justified? No. I wouldn't have framed Young. Do we really need to remember the end of Light, where Rush had his bout of paranoia and everyone else told him to just drop it? You pester a man long enough, and yes, they'll snap at you. That's human nature.

Young caused Rush to snap. Hell, he could have avoided by allowing a volunteer in the first place. As long as the volunteer understood there was a risk of death, I would have stood up and offered. He wants to defend his own actions about dialing the gate to Earth, and so is hypocritical about Rush doing something similar. He's been whining and moaning since day one about not being right for command, and not right to be in charge (hell, he openly admitted it).

So when Rush arranges that, he's upset? I'd say Young is more dangerous to the crew; deprived them of critical power, and preventing chances at going home. He talked high and mighty about being above board with no lying, but when it came down to it, he betrayed those principles.

[rlr149]

He seems unresponsive. That could only mean one thing...Troll.
or he's been murdered.............. it being ok and all.;)

[caelestes]

Ok, /end sarcasm. Peace :)

[aretood2]

I'm being truthful. Why should we hold the crew of the destiny to higher standards of morality than what is held here on Earth. The law of the Western World declares it a right to murder others for the reason of privacy. And neocons like Zelix still worship Bush. So much hatred.

I debated myself if I should even respond, but I will.

What western civilization do you live in? Last time I checked people go to jail around here for murder. In Texas you get the Chair! (well actually I think it is the needle now).

And how is Zelix a Bush worshiping neocon?

----------------------edit------------------------------
worst sarcasm ever! What was your point?

[Major_Griff]

Why isn't John Sheppard on trial for killing a man, by convincing him to get his life to a wraith feeding? Why isn't anyone on trial for the Senator going into the shuttle to close it and die?

There's a lot of hypocritical words being thrown about here. Be very sure of what you are arguing before you start typing.

Whether you wanna call it murder or attempted murder, the end result is that what Young did was wrong. He's been hounding Rush since day 1. I'll repeat a quote from an old Andy Capp comic: "You keep treating me like a dog, and don't be surprised when I bite you."

Was Rush's actions justified? No. I wouldn't have framed Young. Do we really need to remember the end of Light, where Rush had his bout of paranoia and everyone else told him to just drop it? You pester a man long enough, and yes, they'll snap at you. That's human nature.

Young caused Rush to snap. Hell, he could have avoided by allowing a volunteer in the first place. As long as the volunteer understood there was a risk of death, I would have stood up and offered. He wants to defend his own actions about dialing the gate to Earth, and so is hypocritical about Rush doing something similar. He's been whining and moaning since day one about not being right for command, and not right to be in charge (hell, he openly admitted it).

So when Rush arranges that, he's upset? I'd say Young is more dangerous to the crew; deprived them of critical power, and preventing chances at going home. He talked high and mighty about being above board with no lying, but when it came down to it, he betrayed those principles.

I'm sick of people saying the reason Young did this was cause of the frame up. That was part of it, yes, but Rush more or less talking Franklin into sitting in the chair was the reason. If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.

[bjj8383]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.

This.

[aretood2]

I'm sick of people saying the reason Young did this was cause of the frame up. That was part of it, yes, but Rush more or less talking Franklin into sitting in the chair was the reason. If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.

I have to agree here, and I listed this as one of the reasons as to why young did what he did. I don't know if it was in this thread though...

[caelestes]

The point I was making seems to have gone over everybody's head. Oh well.

[rlr149]

The point I was making seems to have gone over everybody's head. Oh well.

or you didn't have one.

[Major_Griff]

The point I was making seems to have gone over everybody's head. Oh well.

Sociopath it is then... ;)

[jelgate]

I'm sick of people saying the reason Young did this was cause of the frame up. That was part of it, yes, but Rush more or less talking Franklin into sitting in the chair was the reason. If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.

I think the frame up was indirectly why Young did it. It showcases just how far Rush will go to get what he wants. This time it was just Young but who knows how many people it will be next time Rush wants something. So Young was thinking more lives would be survivied if Rush's greed wasn't around.

[caelestes]

Oh there was one, but if people didn't see it then they are not ready to deal with it ;)

Edit: As a hint, it has to do with hypocrisy. I will go no further.

[Kaiphantom]

I'm sick of people saying the reason Young did this was cause of the frame up. That was part of it, yes, but Rush more or less talking Franklin into sitting in the chair was the reason. If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.

That's just my point. I don't hold anything against Rush for Franklin deciding to sit in the chair (if it was his own decisions). I don't hold much against John, either. There is something to be said for personal responsibility and one's own volition. If I take an action with full knowledge of the consequences, it's my own fault and no one else's. Especially since Franklin was a scientist and knew full well what he was getting into.

However, Young's actions can't be dismissed. He deliberately left Rush in a situation where it would be reasonably determined to lead to Rush's death. That's at least attempted murder.


I think the frame up was indirectly why Young did it. It showcases just how far Rush will go to get what he wants. This time it was just Young but who knows how many people it will be next time Rush wants something. So Young was thinking more lives would be survivied if Rush's greed wasn't around.

Sorry, there wasn't much greed here, no matter how much you may want to look at it. There was reasonable conclusions that state that the use of the chair may end up saving lives. You may as well try to draw Chloe up on murder charges, since her words to her father led to him dying.

[Major_Griff]

I think the frame up was indirectly why Young did it. It showcases just how far Rush will go to get what he wants. This time it was just Young but who knows how many people it will be next time Rush wants something. So Young was thinking more lives would be survivied if Rush's greed wasn't around.

Right, but I think the Franklin situation had more to do with it. Framing Young was wrong no matter what, but it lead or will lead to Franklin's death. I think Franklin's imminent death and Rush telling him "We'll never be done" meaning "I'm going to keep putting people's lives in danger for my goals" is what made him to decide to do.

[Major_Griff]

That's just my point. I don't hold anything against Rush for Franklin deciding to sit in the chair (if it was his own decisions). I don't hold much against John, either. There is something to be said for personal responsibility and one's own volition. If I take an action with full knowledge of the consequences, it's my own fault and no one else's. Especially since Franklin was a scientist and knew full well what he was getting into.

However, Young's actions can't be dismissed. He deliberately left Rush in a situation where it would be reasonably determined to lead to Rush's death. That's at least attempted murder.

Well my point was that Rush manipulated everything that happened in Justice to get someone to sit in the chair. Franklin wouldn't have had the chance to do sit in it if Young was still in charge.

[aretood2]

That's just my point. I don't hold anything against Rush for Franklin deciding to sit in the chair (if it was his own decisions). I don't hold much against John, either. There is something to be said for personal responsibility and one's own volition. If I take an action with full knowledge of the consequences, it's my own fault and no one else's. Especially since Franklin was a scientist and knew full well what he was getting into.
But many people disagree with you and think that John did wrong. That is the point, Young is one of those that would blame John of wrong doing, thus he blames Rush for franklin. Obviously he sees Rush as a sociopath like threat (Ends justify the means).


However, Young's actions can't be dismissed. He deliberately left Rush in a situation where it would be reasonably determined to lead to Rush's death. That's at least attempted murder.
I agree that he did wrong, but I disagree that it can be equated to murder. If he wanted to kill Rush, he could have strangled him.

[Commander Zelix]

I agree that he did wrong, but I disagree that it can be equated to murder. If he wanted to kill Rush, he could have strangled him.
He didn't murder him. He left him alive on a planet with a ship so he could come back.

[Kaiphantom]

But many people disagree with you and think that John did wrong. That is the point, Young is one of those that would blame John of wrong doing, thus he blames Rush for franklin. Obviously he sees Rush as a sociopath like threat (Ends justify the means).

Whether Young blames or not is irrelevant. In the US, it would be determined that Franklin and Wallace both did what they did of their own decision. If you believe otherwise, then you just removed any semblance of personal responsibility from the table. After all, I can do anything, and just blame you for it.

[aretood2]

Whether Young blames or not is irrelevant. In the US, it would be determined that Franklin and Wallace both did what they did of their own decision. If you believe otherwise, then you just removed any semblance of personal responsibility from the table. After all, I can do anything, and just blame you for it.

But what matters is his state of mind, not mine. Young saw Rush as a dangerous individual end of story. Charge him with improperly marooning some one, not murder. If Rush were to die then the only legal extra that can be done is a civil wrongful death suit, not a murder charge.

Yes, I agree with you with Franklin, but not John's manipulation of that poor guy. John used emotional blackmail, but I digress since this bit would be off topic.

[eaglevision]

And people are underplaying Rushes actions. Do some research on what happens when a crew tries to undermine its captain in colonial times...death. Marooning someone is not murder, and rush most definitely deserved it in Young's eyes.

In his eyes Rush is responsible for
1. Them being stuck in space
2. One guy in a coma
3. Framing him for murder
4. conspiring against the ship's captain

The only problem is that Young lied.
The thing you fail to realize is that Destiny is not Young's ship. He's in charge only because the crew has allowed it, not because he has the right.

...no, actually, they have accepted him only because his loyal henchmen have guns.

Also, who cares about the primitive colonial times?


I'm sick of people saying the reason Young did this was cause of the frame up. That was part of it, yes, but Rush more or less talking Franklin into sitting in the chair was the reason. If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.
How is Rush guilty of Franklin having a feeble mind? That makes no sense. Franklin decided to gamble his life on the chair and we all know what he got for being reckless.

Again, his decision, not Rush's.

[Blackhole]

Did Young do the right thing stranding Rush on the planet?

What has Rush done that has hurt people?

1.
He was obsessed on finding Destiny so he stranded 80 plus people on a ship billions of light years from earth. There was no reason to do this. He could have dialed another gate in the Milky Way Galaxy and everyone would have been saved. His choice wasn’t just negligence or poor judgment but was deliberate and willful. In my book he is culpable morally and legally for all the suffering and death that has occurred so far. By my quick count 5 people have died – the senator, the two who went to the other planet, the guy killed by the swarm, and one suicide. All these people would have been alive if they hadn’t been wrongly sent to the Destiny. Think of the devastation he has caused to the family members of the Destiny’s crew. The only reason Rush isn’t in jail is because his specialized knowledge is desperately needed for the group’s survival.

Imagine if someone sabotaged some equipment on a plane and the plane crashed because of it. What do you think the authorities would do the person responsible after they were rescued?

2.
Rush lied about the Icarus type Planet.

3.
Rush manipulated someone to try an untested and very dangerous piece of equipment.

Everyone on the ship is desperate to get home. Rush knows this and took advantage by creating a situation with the chair where he new and probably hoped someone from his team would out of desperation try it themselves. Rush had no intention of risking his own life but didn’t mind if someone else could be manipulated to do it for him. Young understood that this was exactly Rush’s intent.

4.
Rush framed Young for murder to force him to step down.

He probably knew the Wray would likely take command in his place. Wray has already demonstrated that she is a cowardly self-serving opportunist. IMO she is the last person whose hands I would want to put the lives of the Destiny’s crew into. Young is a far better commander than she would ever be.

Young has repeatedly demonstrated that he cares about the crew and tries to do the honorable and right thing. Overall, in spite of a horrible situation I think he has made very good decisions.

Rush is brilliant and his knowledge is very valuable. Unfortunately he is also amoral and believes the means justify the end and may be a sociopath.

Do I think the Destiny is better off with him or without?

Personally I think he has crossed the line too many times and can no longer be trusted to function in the position of importance he currently possesses. Young made a really tough decision and decided Destiny was better off without him.

Should he have brought him back to face charges or would it be better to strand him as he did?

Bringing him back to face charges would likely have resulted in different factions developing. Wray would have jumped at the opportunity to use the situation to press for her own command. She probably would back Rush and agree with him that Young was unfit for command and would seek support from the crew. The military would then likely line up behind Young. The resulting power struggle could have been catastrophic for the ship. Young stepped down to Wray initially to prevent exactly this type of disastrous situation from developing.

Did Young do the right thing stranding Rush on the planet?

IMO yes he did. The only hope the ship has of surviving is if everyone works together cooperatively under a clear chain of command. Bring Rush back to face charges could have created a situation of enmity and distrust among the crew that they may never have recovered from. Young made a very hard choice and picked the lesser of two evils.

[Lord Hurin]

Rush didn't try to kill Young-he just had him taken out of command.

And in regards to the chair-I don't think Rush wanted anyone to sit in it-he knows it needs to be researched and that's what he was doing.

No, Rush wanted to see what the chair would do to someone because as Franklin said, their research had come to a dead-end. There was no way to figure out what the chair was capable of or designed for without using it. There was no way around, no reprogrammable features of the chair; you HAD to sit in it in order to see what it was all about. Rush knew this and refused to sit in it himself. Thus, he had to "dangle a carrot" so to speak, but couldn't do this with Young's standing orders in the way.

Basically, Rush sees what he wants and doesn't let anyone get in his way of attaining it. He was perfectly willing to ruin Young's career and put his own people at risk to meet his own ends. As it turns out, this wasn't even in the crew's best interest.

[Khentkawes]

I'm not entirely sure that it's accurate to say Rush "framed Young for murder." At least from Rush's perspective, he was not trying to frame him. Rush said that he knew there would never be enough evidence to convict Young. That was never his intention (he's probably smart enough to do a better job of framing someone if he really wanted to). He tried to implicate him, not frame him. It's a fine distinction, and to some people it might not matter. But it does reflect Rush's motives. He was trying to slander Young and cast doubt on his ability to lead the Destiny. It's still wrong, it just isn't quite as malicious as a true frame job.



Whether you wanna call it murder or attempted murder, the end result is that what Young did was wrong. He's been hounding Rush since day 1. I'll repeat a quote from an old Andy Capp comic: "You keep treating me like a dog, and don't be surprised when I bite you."

Was Rush's actions justified? No. I wouldn't have framed Young. Do we really need to remember the end of Light, where Rush had his bout of paranoia and everyone else told him to just drop it? You pester a man long enough, and yes, they'll snap at you. That's human nature.

Um... you mean Young. Right?

I do agree with you though. Young has shown a fair amount of animosity towards Rush and it's only natural that Rush would eventually retaliate.


The point I was making seems to have gone over everybody's head. Oh well.

Actually no. I eventually got your point. But I was momentarily distracted by the insane thought that you were serious about murder being morally okay. You sounded awfully serious at first.



Yes, I agree with you with Franklin, but not John's manipulation of that poor guy. John used emotional blackmail, but I digress since this bit would be off topic.

Yeah, it's going off-topic a bit, but I wanted to comment that I agree with this. I was trying to figure out why Sheppard's manipulation has always bothered me so much (while Rush's manipulation here doesn't bother me as much, because I do feel that Franklin made that choice on his own. He didn't have to choose to sit in the chair). But I think it's the emotional blackmail that I find so repulsive.

[EllieVee]

People seem to be missing the fact that Rush manipulated everything that happened in Justice to get Franklin to sit in the chair. No he didn't force him, but he kept saying "this chair is our only hope to get home". Of course some one was eventually going to sit in the chair.

Nonsense. It was a choice. Pure and simple. Franklin chose to sit in the chair and if you watch Rush's face, he's genuinely surprised.

[Azzers]

Personally, I think everyone would be happier if they didn't try to paint everyone in such black and white terms. Everyone's motives here are grey at best, but they are certainly not saintly, nor evil strictly speaking.

Rush basically dug his own grave so to speak when he admitted that he framed Young and then insinuated that Young didn't have the stomach to make a hard choice. Which of course instantly caused Young to think of everything that Rush had ever done and the type of disruptive force he has been in that one moment when he had the ability to remove Rush from the equation.

But honestly, I think speculatively speaking, Rush was testing him because he knows what the alien ship is and felt safe that if it went down like that, he could still get back one way or another. I could be totally wrong on the last part. But Rush was definitely baiting Young, either intentionally or unintentionally.

[Blackhole]

Personally, I think everyone would be happier if they didn't try to paint everyone in such black and white terms. Everyone's motives here are grey at best, but they are certainly not saintly, nor evil strictly speaking.

Rush basically dug his own grave so to speak when he admitted that he framed Young and then insinuated that Young didn't have the stomach to make a hard choice. Which of course instantly caused Young to think of everything that Rush had ever done and the type of disruptive force he has been in that one moment when he had the ability to remove Rush from the equation.

But honestly, I think speculatively speaking, Rush was testing him because he knows what the alien ship is and felt safe that if it went down like that, he could still get back one way or another. I could be totally wrong on the last part. But Rush was definitely baiting Young, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I agree with the "everyone would be happier if they didn't try to paint everyone in such black and white terms and dug his own grave".

I don't think Rush was intentionally baiting him. There is no way he could know he could fix the ship or for that matter even gain access to it. Rush is arrogant and it makes for good drama to have a fight when Rush is directly confrontative. In any real world situation Rush would never be that stupid to try to purposely bait Young when he knows he could get left behind.

[Jeff-B]

Oh there was one, but if people didn't see it then they are not ready to deal with it ;)

Edit: As a hint, it has to do with hypocrisy. I will go no further.

There are much better places to debate abortion than a TV show fansite. I can probably look up a couple for you if you're really interested.

[morrismike]

...anyone know the naval punishment for marooning someone?

under navy traditions, rush would get daily "blanket parties" and eventually "spaced" (since overboard isn't a possibility)

[morrismike]

Let's not forget Rush was given a choice to stop and his response was to make it very clear to Young that he was going to continue his destructive ways no doubt killing many in the process. As a responsible commander in that situation, he had no choice. Personally, I would have spaced Rush a long time ago.

[Kino1983]

Col. Young knew it was Rush before they both went to the alien planet.

The fact he had allowed Rush to join the expedition, and then waited for both of them to be alone on the planet's surface before confronting him, means the whole ordeal was PREMEDITATED.

[AdamTM]

Let's not forget Rush was given a choice to stop and his response was to make it very clear to Young that he was going to continue his destructive ways no doubt killing many in the process. As a responsible commander in that situation, he had no choice. Personally, I would have spaced Rush a long time ago.

Can you elaborate what Spacing/blanket parties are? Is that imprisonment + stuff we saw in fullmetal jacket? ^^ I dont know navy slang ^^

Also as many people said here, its not really Youngs ship, hes not the captain or anything. Secondly, Rush is a civilian, and there was no martial law declared, would you do that in case of a civilian too?

[garhkal]

If taken in military context in times of war (or distress in SGU's case) it's not called murder. It's called executing a traitor who tried to undermine the leadership. Like shooting deserters.

Prob with regarding them as deserters or traitors is that you have to be in a state of war (distress is not a reason to call someone a traitor or deserter.



Indeed. I suspect He wanted to keep the video incase he ever needed to show his superiors evidence of Rush's traitorous ways, and only lied to the crew to maintain his leadership since they wouldn't see it that way.

As i posted above, lying to your crew is NOT maintaining your leadership ways as it actually will UNDERMINE it.


I find it hard to believe that this man looked up to & admired Jack O'Neil

I would LOVE to see what Oneills response to this is when it gets found out. Though he did something almsot as underhanded (The other side) that person was NOT an earthling, let alone one of his own crew/team.


1. They entered the gate on a voluntary basis.

Young was VERY eager to go with rush, which to me implies he KNEW what he was going to do.. especially since they were told that there was only a few hours to go before they went back into FTL.


But then Young also lied to the crew about Rush. When Rush comes back I can not imagine anyone on that ship trusting Young thinking it could happen to them

Which again will undermine his leadership.


And if Young told the truth, it would make things worse. It would divide the ship and make things impossible. So if you can pass Rush's lie why not Young's?

Actually i think if he told the truth to them about why he stranded rush, it wouldn't divide the ship. Most know rush is a coniving SOB, and what he did to Young was down right sneaky.


The worst part is, the military contingent ( at least Scott, Greer, and TJ) have shown that they would be 100% loyal to Young no matter what and most likely even if the truth of the incident was revealed.

Greer definitely, scott and TJ i am not so sure.


no it isn't, someone has to die for a "murder" rush isn't dead.

"harsh exile" might be more apt. or "marooned".

Attempted murder then. SInce we see from his reaction to rush wanting to go down, and can infirm that he knew rush was the one who framed him, he was already planning to do something. THAT to me shows premeditation. Therefore it would come more under murder than neglegience..


Also when rush gets back what proof does he have it didn't go as Young said. For that matter people could think he was spiteful for him being left behind. Resulting in hear say and more speculation. No definite outcome.


Didn't rush say he was bruied in a landslide?? That rush survived it AND was able to make it back i would think is proof enough of his deception.


It is not murder because it is fully okay to kill someone else, or even just to attempt it. I have learned that it is okay to kill children at ones will. It is no different than with adults.

In what country are you? In most of the western world it is NOT ok to kill someone else. Abortion is in many ares NOT considered killing, since the feotus is not considered a LIVING person yet.


The law of the Western World declares it a right to murder others for the reason of privacy.

HU?? Did i just wake up in an alternate dimention or somehting. There are MANY people in jail for murder, attempted murder, manslaughter etc. IT is against the LAW to take anothers life, and in no way is protecting ones privacy considered mittagating circumstances. SELF defense is.


Why isn't John Sheppard on trial for killing a man, by convincing him to get his life to a wraith feeding?

We have spent many hours spectulating about whether he did or not 'convince him'.


If Sheppard talking Wallace into being fed on is Murder as you say, so is Rush talking Franklin into sitting in the chair.

i do not see the two as the same. Shep KNEW what would happen to wallace if he went to allow Todd to feed. Rush 'pep' talking everyone so one would get it in their head to sit in the chair, when they did NOT know what would happen is no where in the same ball park. Heck Rush even said to young afterwards that they "ALL agreed no one should sit in it"..


He didn't murder him. He left him alive on a planet with a ship so he could come back.

He left him with an unknown alien ship, no tools to work with, no food and water and no other provisions (sleeping blanket etc). Now how is that suposed to equate to him leaving him there so he can come back. Anyone who thinks (without OUR knowledge rush WILL be back) that he could survive that is living in a dream world.


Nonsense. It was a choice. Pure and simple. Franklin chose to sit in the chair and if you watch Rush's face, he's genuinely surprised.

To me it was an even mix of surprise and shock that he was NOT right about what it would do.

[Lord Hurin]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

[AdamTM]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

not really, they are now on the same level with young being unstable and vengeful.

[Khentkawes]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

I think most people would agree that it's much more complicated than that.

As viewers, we were set up to think that Rush was manipulative and self-serving, possibly even down-right villainous. Meanwhile, (as viewers) we were also set up to believe that Young was a good man with a strong sense of ethics, as well as a firm and fair leader who cares about his people.

The past several episodes have been playing with those expectations in order to make the viewers rethink their pre-conceived notions. Rush's manipulative attitude has been counter-balanced by his own words when he offers logical explanations and when he discusses the "greater good." This is not to say that he hasn't made some highly questionable and unethical decisions, but his own rationale for them seems logical from a certain point of view. That creates doubt as to whether he's actually malicious or whether he's just coldly practical. Meanwhile, the strong, ethical, and caring leader has now beaten up two people with whom he had personal conflicts. So it's natural at this point to start question how "ethical and caring" he actually is. In fact, I would bet money that the writers intended to make their audience start questioning both Rush and Young at this point in the season.

This is what happens when you have characters who actually make mistakes (and when you take the time to deal with the consequences of those mistakes). It's the result of having characters that aren't just clean-cut heroes, but deeply flawed human beings. Ambiguity occurs. Black and white, good and bad, start to become a bit more difficult to unravel.

Personally, I think both characters are only trying to do what they think is best. I think Rush really believes that he is working towards the greater good, even though I think he sometimes goes about it the wrong way. And I think that Young really he is a good and caring leader, he just has some serious anger management problems.

[Lord Hurin]

not really, they are now on the same level with young being unstable and vengeful.

Ah, and this is where I begin to get iffy. It's ok to have some characters act ambiguously in a show. This makes a character that you "love to loathe" which is all well and good. When they introduce a character that seems good and "heroic" and then cut him down with seemingly no reason and no redemption in sight, it's just disappointing. When Young was the calm, level headed CO as seen in the first few episodes, I liked him. Now I neither love nor hate him. He has fallen into that "meh" zone that can be the death of a character.

Seriously, Spencer has already been revealed as a plot device. I hope they don't use Young as one too, his only purpose in the show being for Rush to tear down in a show of ruthless logic.

[EllieVee]

So you agree with me then. Young did nothing wrong. There are many bigots on this forum. It is a person's private choice to kill someone else. It is not murder because it is fully okay to kill someone else, or even just to attempt it. I have learned that it is okay to kill children at ones will. It is no different than with adults. I don't care if Young had Rush tied up kneeling on the floor and used his gun to shoot him in the back of the head because Rush sneezed. There is nothing wrong with something like that. Young made a tough decision, but it was his private choice to make. People should be showing Young compassion for having to have made such a hard choice, not villainizing him as some sort of possible murderer. Murder is okay in today's world. Only bigots and fanatics disagree.

Thankfully, I wasn't drinking when I read this.

[EllieVee]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

I'm going with that.

[Lord Hurin]

I think most people would agree that it's much more complicated than that.

This is what happens when you have characters who actually make mistakes (and when you take the time to deal with the consequences of those mistakes). It's the result of having characters that aren't just clean-cut heroes, but deeply flawed human beings. Ambiguity occurs. Black and white, good and bad, start to become a bit more difficult to unravel.

Personally, I think both characters are only trying to do what they think is best. I think Rush really believes that he is working towards the greater good, even though I think he sometimes goes about it the wrong way. And I think that Young really he is a good and caring leader, he just has some serious anger management problems.

I do agree with the first two paragraphs. I just kind of wish they'd kept Young a little closer to his "good guy" roots, but maybe I'm just wishing for him to channel Colonel O'Neill a little ;)

Most posters on here seem to be "taking sides" with Rush though.

[notopper]

it will be interesting to see if the characters are forced to reconcile some how when Rush comes back to the ship.

[EllieVee]

Well my point was that Rush manipulated everything that happened in Justice to get someone to sit in the chair. Franklin wouldn't have had the chance to do sit in it if Young was still in charge.

Um, yes, he would. If he wanted to sit in the chair, he would have found a way. Rush was pretty clear that everyone had instructions not to sit in the chair. Indeed, Franklin was expecting Rush to turn up and clearly got rid of Eli so he could sit in the chair before Rush showed up.

[Taiko]

Can you elaborate what Spacing/blanket parties are? Is that imprisonment + stuff we saw in fullmetal jacket? ^^ I dont know navy slang ^^

Also as many people said here, its not really Youngs ship, hes not the captain or anything. Secondly, Rush is a civilian, and there was no martial law declared, would you do that in case of a civilian too?
Spacing is a space version of "fragging" in Full Metal Jacket and the Vietnam War era. Killing a fellow soldier, normally the commander, for the good and safety of the unit. Fragging got its name because use of a fragmentation grenade, thus leaving no of the physical evidence for the CSI types in Army CID and NIS, now NCIS. The grenade was the weapon of choice. Spacing would be to shove the victim out of the airlock and not using a bullet on him.

Blanket parties are done by the squad, the CO either doesn't know or he has plausible deniability to say he doesn't know it happens. Like the Colonel Jack Nickleson played in the Tom Cruise movie A Few Good Men. A blanket is thrown over the victims head so he can't positively identify his attackers as the squad issues corporal punisment

[Khentkawes]

I do agree with the first two paragraphs. I just kind of wish they'd kept Young a little closer to his "good guy" roots, but maybe I'm just wishing for him to channel Colonel O'Neill a little ;)

Most posters on here seem to be "taking sides" with Rush though.

Yeah, I think that's because Carlyle is awesome. ;)

No, seriously, I know I sound like I'm taking sides with Rush (because I really love his character and because Carlyle has done a fantastic job with him), but until the past two episodes, I really loved Young too (and LF is no slouch in the acting department, either!). I think Young's popularity is on the decline at the moment because Life and Justice aired back-to-back. Young looks tarnished because he has made some big mistakes two episodes in a row. He also physically attacked two people, which is difficult to rationalize. BUT, it won't take much for me to go back to seeing him as a great leader. I just want to see him have to deal with some consequences for what he's done, show some regret, and then I'll be back to loving him. :) And even though he scares me at the moment, I still like him as a character. I still think he's interesting. He's just not as steady and reliably "good" as I had originally thought. Whereas, I never really thought Rush was reliable, so his actions don't shock me quite as much.

Sorry, but I don't think anyone will be channeling Jack O'Neill in this series. But honestly, would you really want them to? There's only one Jack O'Neill. And I think that's the way it should be. :)

[Jeff-B]

After this episode, I'd put Young and Rush at about the same level of "villainy". Difference number 1: Young is an Air Force Colonel. Which means he should be held to a much higher standard of accountability for his actions than Rush. Difference number 2: Young, for better or worse, is in command of the whole deal. He's displaying extremely poor leadership by beating people up. Rush is a scientist with serious moral and ethical issues. Remember Kavanaugh in Atlantis? His attempt at getting rid of the mission's leader( admittedly through whining rather than framing her for murder) was met primarily with eye-rolling, not violence or marooning.

[Lord Hurin]

No, seriously, I know I sound like I'm taking sides with Rush (because I really love his character and because Carlyle has done a fantastic job with him), but until the past two episodes, I really loved Young too (and LF is no slouch in the acting department, either!). I think Young's popularity is on the decline at the moment because Life and Justice aired back-to-back. Young looks tarnished because he has made some big mistakes two episodes in a row. He also physically attacked two people, which is difficult to rationalize. BUT, it won't take much for me to go back to seeing him as a great leader. I just want to see him have to deal with some consequences for what he's done, show some regret, and then I'll be back to loving him. :) And even though he scares me at the moment, I still like him as a character. I still think he's interesting. He's just not as steady and reliably "good" as I had originally thought. Whereas, I never really thought Rush was reliable, so his actions don't shock me quite as much.

Yes, I agree here especially with what I've highlighted. I think the major difference between Rush and Young (as loosely "antagonist" and "protagonist" respectively) is that Rush should be the one premeditating his moral lapses and justifying them by saying it's for the best whether it really is or not. Young on the other hand should be making his errors in the heat of the moment (hell, in that moment on that planet I would've slugged Rush too, and with glee! ;) )and should be reflecting on them and feel ashamed of them. Maybe if we see him (literally) losing sleep in the next episode over marooning Rush then it would go a long way towards making him more sympathetic again.


Sorry, but I don't think anyone will be channeling Jack O'Neill in this series. But honestly, would you really want them to? There's only one Jack O'Neill. And I think that's the way it should be. :)

It's not that I want a cookie-cutter character. Indeed as you said, Louis Ferreira is a great actor. I'd just like to see him act with the same (or same-ish, with a twist due to their different circumstances) ethics as O'Neill. I do see SOME degree of that. For example, I could definitely have seen O'Neill tackling Spencer the way Young did in "Life".

[LoneStar1836]

Most posters on here seem to be "taking sides" with Rush though.I'm definitely taking Rush's side. :D Though he is my favorite character and will probably remain that way, unless the writers figure out some way to completely destroy him. I like that he is questionable, but I don't see him as a villain.

Not that I necessarily agree with how Rush went about doing what he did, but I do I agree with what he told Young on the planet. I've wanted to tell Young that since practically the beginning of the show. Grow a backbone already. Young needed to man up and make the tough decisions for the greater good, but he won't. And this decision to strand Rush certainly wasn't for the greater good. My like of Young has been a roller coaster ride so far. It started off neutral and then I started liking him a bit more, but he's done several thing to make my like of him go up and down, and in this ep he took a big drop. I don't want to dislike him, but he will have to redeem himself after this.

I do think Young is trying to do what he believes is best so I don't fault him for that as he is human and seems to be more personable where as Rush is clearly not a people person, but he is the leader and he needs to act like it.

I don't fault Young for having emotions, but wtf was he thinking by doing that to Rush. Imo, that was premeditated murder as he clearly went to that planet knowing what Rush did to him. Young acted on impulse when he learned what Rush did to him. Nothing he did in that moment that he decided to strand Rush was for the good of the crew. It was for the good of himself...or so he believed. Rush has been a thorn in his side since day one, and this was his chance to get rid of him...the other people on Destiny be damned.



Yes, I agree here especially with what I've highlighted. I think the major difference between Rush and Young (as loosely "antagonist" and "protagonist" respectively) is that Rush should be the one premeditating his moral lapses and justifying them by saying it's for the best whether it really is or not. Young on the other hand should be making his errors in the heat of the moment (hell, in that moment on that planet I would've slugged Rush too, and with glee! ;) )and should be reflecting on them and feel ashamed of them. Maybe if we see him (literally) losing sleep in the next episode over marooning Rush then it would go a long way towards making him more sympathetic again.That would be a step in the right direction. I don't see Young as cold and heartless so I think this should bother him.

Certainly can't blame him for beating the tar out of Rush, and rightly so, but leaving him on that planet was inexcusable.

[pipi]

Young's actions broke the First Cardinal Rule of the entire Stargate franchise: "We don't leave people behind."

Hahaha good! Finally something different and exciting. SGU was touted as being totally different from traditional SG1 story lines.

No more good guy vs bad guy. Good guy always wins and retrieves their team predicitable BS and everyone lives happily ever after. This is free for all anarchy, well not completely yet, the only people stopping it from plunging into anarchy is Young and Scott. If those two were out of the picture, Destiny will become very barbaric.

[Hibblette]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

Did Rush kill someone?

I love how some are saying that Rush pulled a "Hedda Gabler" and influenced Franknlin to sit in that chair. Ibsen would be so proud.

I still say Rush wants to figure the chair out and then use it. Maybe bypass the sitting in the chair.

Young is not a good commander. He has made awful decisions all through this-starting with his involvement with TJ.

In "Water" he should not have been on that mission-he should have delegated the responsibility to Scott and Greer.

I totally agree with Rush-Young needs to be replaced in command. Now problem is I don't think it should be Rush (actually I really don't think Rush wants it) and I don't think it should be Wray.

So Scott has got to have a sudden heroic moment in his life.

[SoulReaver]

I love how some are saying that Rush pulled a "Hedda Gabler" and influenced Franknlin to sit in that chair. Ibsen would be so proud.of course he did - he's a brilliant mind so it's obvious he mentally coerced Franklin into sitting on the chair using his powerful evil TP vibes :|


Prob with regarding them as deserters or traitors is that you have to be in a state of war (distress is not a reason to call someone a traitor or deserter.+1 and furthermore the "deserter/traitor" has to be part of the chain of command, else those terms are misnomers (Rush is a civie)

not to mention the disproportion between the crime & punishment - sentenced to death for wanting to have the leader dismissed ? (not even framed for murder - Rush knew there was no proof. only create enough doubt to have him relieved of command)
guess Young must really crave power lol

[the fifth man]

IMO, Rush kind of got what was coming to him. Was it extreme? - Yes, it was. But in a way, I don't really blame Young for doing what he did. We will see Rush again, and I definitely can't wait for that reunion.

[Blackhole]

Did Rush kill someone?

I love how some are saying that Rush pulled a "Hedda Gabler" and influenced Franknlin to sit in that chair. Ibsen would be so proud.

I still say Rush wants to figure the chair out and then use it. Maybe bypass the sitting in the chair.

Young is not a good commander. He has made awful decisions all through this-starting with his involvement with TJ.

In "Water" he should not have been on that mission-he should have delegated the responsibility to Scott and Greer.

I totally agree with Rush-Young needs to be replaced in command. Now problem is I don't think it should be Rush (actually I really don't think Rush wants it) and I don't think it should be Wray.

So Scott has got to have a sudden heroic moment in his life.


Did Rush kill someone?

He stranded 80 plus people on a spaceship billions of light years from earth.

5 people have died because of that act including a US Senator.


I love how some are saying that Rush pulled a "Hedda Gabler" and influenced Franknlin to sit in that chair. Ibsen would be so proud.

He down played the potential dangers and up played the importance to people that are desperate to get home. The person who tried it is now in a coma. Even Eli realized that Rush was minimizing the danger of the chair by commenting that Rush would be the first person to sit in it if he thought it was safe.


Young is not a good commander. He has made awful decisions all through this-starting with his involvement with TJ.

What were they?


In "Water" he should not have been on that mission-he should have delegated the responsibility to Scott and Greer.

Why? Maybe he has had extensive space suit experience and was the best man for the job. He didn't give up and saved Scott's life.


I totally agree with Rush-Young needs to be replaced in command. Now problem is I don't think it should be Rush (actually I really don't think Rush wants it) and I don't think it should be Wray.

Why? Rush has endangered the lives of the entire group by sending them there in the first place, has lied and tried to frame the commander for a murder he didn't commit. Bringing him back to face charges could have set off a power struggle that could have permanently divided the crew. He made a tough decision and chose the lesser of two evils.

[beafly]

I completely fail to understand why he lied when he returned to the Destiny. The video evidence would have been more than sufficient to justify his actions. Seems a bit contrived for the sake of drama yet again.

Bottom line is that Rush's actions were mutiny plain and simple. I think Young would have been justified to simply put a hole in his head, marooning him was an act of mercy.

[garhkal]

A blanket is thrown over the victims head so he can't positively identify his attackers as the squad issues corporal punisment

Along with everyone else putting a bar of soap in their blanket and running over and whakking the guy in the chest/belly while he is 'blinded.

[Blackhole]

I completely fail to understand why he lied when he returned to the Destiny. The video evidence would have been more than sufficient to justify his actions. Seems a bit contrived for the sake of drama yet again.

Bottom line is that Rush's actions were mutiny plain and simple. I think Young would have been justified to simply put a hole in his head, marooning him was an act of mercy.

Bringing him back to face charges would likely have resulted in different factions developing. Wray would have jumped at the opportunity to use the situation to press for her own command. She probably would back Rush and agree with him that Young was unfit for command and would seek support from the crew. The military would then likely line up behind Young. The resulting power struggle could have been catastrophic for the ship. Young stepped down to Wray initially to prevent exactly this type of disastrous situation from developing. The only hope the ship has of surviving is if everyone works together cooperatively under a clear chain of command. Bring Rush back could have created a situation of enmity and distrust among the crew that they may never have recovered from. Young made a very hard choice and picked the lesser of two evils.

[EllieVee]

Why? Rush has endangered the lives of the entire group by sending them there in the first place, has lied repeatedly and tried to frame the commander for a murder he didn't commit. Bringing him back to face charges could have set off a power struggle that could have permanently divided the crew. He made a tough decision and chose the lesser of two evils.

He's lied once that we know of prior to Justice.

[RobertF]

Young did the right thing marooning Rush.

Rush has confessed his guilt to Young, plus he struck Young with a rock - assaulting an officer with deadly intent. The punishment would have been marooning on the next planet anyways. This planet was as good a location as any, plus the derelict spaceship offers Rush a possibility of escape. Marooning isn't the same thing as murder. Stranding Rush on a habitable world was the best option available.

Young hasn't gone off the deep end, and this wasn't a temper tantrum on his part. He made a calculated decision to knock out Rush and leave him. Lying about the stranding of Rush doesn't sit easy with me, but if Young had told the truth it certainly would have affected morale in the ship. At any rate, with Rush and Spencer gone, the situation is much more stable now. It's ironic that Rush accused Young of not being able to make life and death decisions...

Something else that occurred to me. I think Rush may have been contemplating mudering Young before they returned to the Destiny. Young said the kino file wasn't corrupted, that it showed Rush entering Spencer's room after he commited suicide. I think Young lied here in order to elicit a confession from Rush. There's no hint in the episode that any other characers suspect Rush. After all Rush would have been arrested on the spot if the kino recording did show Rush in Spencer's room - he never would have been allowed to go on the mission to the planet's surface.

So Rush spilled his guts to Young, and nobody else but Young knows the truth. To protect his skin, Rush's next action could have been to murder Young on the planet and invent a story to protect himself after returning to the Destiny (perhaps the same rock fall story Young used). Why did Rush confess to Young, if he didn't intend to kill Young before returning to the Destiny? Young didn't have a weapon with him. Rush could have clobbered Young on the head with a rock when his back was turned. But I guess we'll never know what Rush's intentions were.

[Gollumpus]

I think Young would have been justified to simply put a hole in his head, marooning him was an act of mercy.


Got that reversed. Putting a bullet in Rush's head would have been the act of mercy.

From Young's perspective Rush has been exiled and has few options other than to starve to death all alone over the next several days. And even if he found any kind of food/water and shelter, he's still all alone. The alien ship is also not an option in Young's mind as there is no apparent way to get in (hatches are locked etc).

However, we know that Rush will find a way...

regards,
G.

[Hermiiod]

Young knew Rush will find a way out. He is Dr. Nicholas Rush after all....savvy?

[ARealArchaeologist]

So is the vibe I'm getting here that Rush is fine and dandy and justified in his actions and that Young is a horrible, reprehensible person? Wow...

I wouldn't say that, although it does look that way. I think Rush isn't an angel, but I do love that kind of character, and how they explain things in their mind. Rush is very guilty, but in his mind he's not doing what's evil, just what has to be done. I think we are suppose to compare the two characters, because although they are very different people, they are both very flawed and are doing what they consider right. Whether what they do is actually right isn't really the issue, it's what they believe. Which is typical of most people, few people think themselves evil.

Whether people here agree or disagree with the murder idea, I think Young believes he's committed murder. He left Rush there, and realizes that survival is unlikely. Of course we know that Rush will be back at some point and it seems to make the situation less serious. Whatever the reasons to justify the abandonment, Young will carry that weight, and now he's become the perfect candidate for the self fulfilling prophecy concept. I wonder how long Young can keep up under all this pressure and everything he is going through. Another thing I find really interesting about Young is that he doesn't take the "moral high road", he didn't have to beat up Telford, or leave Rush there, it's very hard to be the "bigger person", and it really just adds to the show and all the great questions and ideas it brings up.

[Blackhole]

He's lied once that we know of prior to Justice.

He lied about the necessity for dialing Destiny in the first place and about finding an Icarus type planet.

[haloplayer]

When Rush comes back and meets Young, the conversation should go like this:

Young: Its YOU

Rush: You forgot one thing mate when you left me on that God forsaken spit of a Planet

Young: And whats that?

Rush: Im Dr. Nicholas Rush

[koroush47]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.

Young is worse.

Rush never killed anybody. Young left rush for dead, but since we are the audience... we know rush will make it out on that ship or something. But Young thought he would just die on the planet.

[jcainhaze]

He lied about the necessity for dialing Destiny in the first place and about finding an Icarus type planet.

Yes, Rush is a liar. Young still had no right to leave him to die on that planet. I actuall like Young less because he can't handle is position of authority.

[jelgate]

Young is worse.

Rush never killed anybody. Young left rush for dead, but since we are the audience... we know rush will make it out on that ship or something. But Young thought he would just die on the planet.

Tell that to Sen. Armstrong, Franklin, or people who died while fleeing Icarus

[morrismike]

Jack would've put a bullet in Rush's brain. He got off lucky with Young.

[Targust]

Jack would've put a bullet in Rush's brain.


Word.

[EllieVee]

Young did the right thing marooning Rush.

Rush has confessed his guilt to Young, plus he struck Young with a rock - assaulting an officer with deadly intent. The punishment would have been marooning on the next planet anyways. This planet was as good a location as any, plus the derelict spaceship offers Rush a possibility of escape. Marooning isn't the same thing as murder. Stranding Rush on a habitable world was the best option available.

Young hasn't gone off the deep end, and this wasn't a temper tantrum on his part. He made a calculated decision to knock out Rush and leave him. Lying about the stranding of Rush doesn't sit easy with me, but if Young had told the truth it certainly would have affected morale in the ship. At any rate, with Rush and Spencer gone, the situation is much more stable now. It's ironic that Rush accused Young of not being able to make life and death decisions...

Something else that occurred to me. I think Rush may have been contemplating mudering Young before they returned to the Destiny. Young said the kino file wasn't corrupted, that it showed Rush entering Spencer's room after he commited suicide. I think Young lied here in order to elicit a confession from Rush. There's no hint in the episode that any other characers suspect Rush. After all Rush would have been arrested on the spot if the kino recording did show Rush in Spencer's room - he never would have been allowed to go on the mission to the planet's surface.

So Rush spilled his guts to Young, and nobody else but Young knows the truth. To protect his skin, Rush's next action could have been to murder Young on the planet and invent a story to protect himself after returning to the Destiny (perhaps the same rock fall story Young used). Why did Rush confess to Young, if he didn't intend to kill Young before returning to the Destiny? Young didn't have a weapon with him. Rush could have clobbered Young on the head with a rock when his back was turned. But I guess we'll never know what Rush's intentions were.

Here's a question for you: given that Young knew the footage wasn't corrupted, why didn't he just out Rush on the ship there and then? Why go through all the rigmarole? If he outed him, Rush wouldn't have done your hypothetical murder. :rolleyes:

No, the idea from the beginning was to get rid of Rush and the alien ship just gave him the excuse. Unjustifable, though ironic that it is.

[EllieVee]

He lied about the necessity for dialing Destiny in the first place and about finding an Icarus type planet.

No, he didn't on the first point. Pure speculation on your part there.

[koroush47]

Jack would've put a bullet in Rush's brain. He got off lucky with Young.

I've never seen jack shoot somebody who didn't have a gun aimed at him.


Sure he talked about shooting people all the time, but he never did it.

I think he would of just zatted him and threw him into a cell.


:jack: Thats not a face of a murderer.

[pipi]

I completely fail to understand why he lied when he returned to the Destiny. The video evidence would have been more than sufficient to justify his actions. Seems a bit contrived for the sake of drama yet again.

Bottom line is that Rush's actions were mutiny plain and simple. I think Young would have been justified to simply put a hole in his head, marooning him was an act of mercy.

My best guess for doing the deed behind closed doors was to avoid a possible political crap storm with the IOA and decreasing moral amongst the remaining survivors. I'm think Stargate Command still has the power to relieve Young of duty via the stones so that's another crap storm to not have to worry about.

And Rush probably made it personal with Young when he defyed a very direct order not to mess around with the chair because it could kill people and to make it worst, he framed Young as well, that's like a biatch slap to the face. People who can't see why the fat guy who sat in the chair was a direct result of Rush's actions are just not smart enough to figure it out.

[missmobius]

Young leaving Rush behind wasn't payback for the frame job. The beating would have sufficed for that. He left him behind because of what happened to Franklin (he's the one that sat in the chair right?) and because Rush basically told him he was going to keep doing things like the frame up, and getting Franklin to sit in the chair, regardless of lives lost, when ever he needed something done. He did it for the safety of the entire crew. I don't know if I agree with what he did, but Rush was a menace that needed to be dealt with, so I certainly can't fault Young for leaving him behind.

I don't see Rush as a menace, Franklin is an adult, and only Franklin is responsible for sitting in the chair, even if Rush kind of tried to encourage him to sit there, Franklin clearly knew that Young and even others like Eli knew how dangerous sitting in the chair would be, so Rush IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for Franklin being "trigger happy".

Oh and as far as I'm concerned Young is a bigger menace because he can't control his temper, he's somewhat like Spencer.

[Blackhole]

No, he didn't on the first point. Pure speculation on your part there.


It is not speculation at all. Rushed pushed Sgt Riley out of the way and then dialed the 9th Chevron. He then said it was too dangerous to dial Earth. When Young found out he said why didn't you dial some place else? Russ never replied. At this point the Stargate had already established contact and wouldn't disengage. Rush could have dialed anywhere else if he was worried about the blast transmitting through the wormhole. He chose Destiny and stranded everyone there. The fact that later Greer pointed his gun at him and said I am not going to let this guy screw us again confirms that others felt the same way.

Rush wanted to go to the Destiny and didn't care what happened to anyone else. 5 people have died so far because of that act and the lives of 80 plus people and their families have likely been ruined.

Rush is a murder morally and legally plain and simple. His decision was deliberate and was not poor judgment. The only reason he wasn’t locked up was because they needed his knowledge for their survival. After this point Rush has repeatedly shown by his comments that he doesn’t care for human life. He advised Young to leave Scott because he wanted to get the water. He hasn’t been logical but cold and ruthless. He has also lied and tried to frame his commanding officer for murder.

Some people have argued that Young’s action to strand him was far too drastic and that Rush didn’t deserve it and lying about it when he returned made it worse. If Young was back on Earth then I would agree with them that he should have been bought back to face charges and Young would have no business taking the law into his own hands. But Young and the Destiny crew are not on Earth. Their situation is dire and the crew is barely hanging together.

Bringing him back to face charges would likely have resulted in different factions developing. Wray would have jumped at the opportunity to use the situation to press for her own command. She probably would back Rush and agree with him that Young was unfit for command and would seek support from the crew. The military would then likely line up behind Young. The resulting power struggle could have been catastrophic for the ship. Young stepped down to Wray initially to prevent exactly this type of disastrous situation from developing. The only hope the ship has of surviving is if everyone works together cooperatively under a clear chain of command. To bring Rush back could have created a situation of enmity and distrust among the crew that they may never have recovered from.

I think the closest Earth situation that their circumstances may compare to would be a naval ship with limited supplies under battle conditions adrift in the middle of the ocean. In this condition the captain has far more justified authority to take drastic measures to maintain disciple and insure survival. The wartime shooting of deserters and other lawbreakers are examples. Young made a very hard choice and picked the lesser of two evils and imo passing Summary Judgment on Rush the way he did was necessary and what was best for Destiny.

[missmobius]

Sounds great in theory but as I write this there are two nations on Earth, Malta and the Philippines and one of the great religions where divorce is not an option.

People seperate and in more cases just cheat a few days a week. If the children find out the new friend is referred to as Aunt or Uncle. While the children if produced are brother and sister.

I can't believe I just read the above????? you're kidding, right?

If divorce is not an option then tell your spouse you are going to live separately and start new relationships (in other words be honest about your intentions) then if you want to start new relationships go ahead, (even Roman Catholics are allowed to divorce so I'm not sure if that is correct?)

and the part about referring to a mistress/lover as an Aunt, and any offspring of the affair are siblings, OMG OMG OMG, I am speechless!!!!!

[Shpinxinator]

I think the closest Earth situation that their circumstances would compare to would be a naval ship with limited supplies under battle conditions adrift in the middle of the ocean. In this condition the captain has far more justified authority to take drastic measures to maintain disciple and insure survival. The wartime shooting of deserters and other lawbreakers are examples. Young made a very hard choice and picked the lesser of two evils and imo passing summary judgment on Rush the way he did was appropriate.

The man lost his tempter...pure and simple...I'm sorry but Young isn't a flag officer on extended duty during a time of war....he's a washed up CO who missed his chance to quit when he wanted to.

[Blackhole]

The man lost his tempter...pure and simple...I'm sorry but Young isn't a flag officer on extended duty during a time of war....he's a washed up CO who missed his chance to quit when he wanted to.

I don't agree. Being trapped on the Destiny is about as extended as it gets. He didn't lose his temper but made a measured decision. He wasn't going to let Rush hurt anyone else on the Destiny.

[Shpinxinator]

I don't agree. He didn't lose his temper but made a measured decision.

A measured decision to beat the crap out of someone and leave them for dead and then lie to his crew, ironically doing exactly what he was accused of doing with Spencer in the first place?

If it were measured he would have outed Rush the first time they played the Kino recording and had Rush locked up under guard

[missmobius]

Young did the right thing marooning Rush.

Rush has confessed his guilt to Young, plus he struck Young with a rock - assaulting an officer with deadly intent.

ah come on, Young punched him first and Rush responded in kind, and at least Rush didn't lie to Young,

and that is what is making me think and question why????? why did Rush provoke the fight even further? Why did he tell Young the truth, I'm sure he knew Young would have started punching him.

I suspect in a strange way Rush wanted to be marooned there so he can power up that ship. and taking that further Rush knew that ship was on that planet, Rush is the one stopping Destiny, Rush knows way more than he's letting on.

I may be wrong but it's Rush's fault, he's so sneaky, and I love it!

[lordofseas]

Rush is a murder morally and legally plain and simple. His decision was deliberate and was not poor judgment. The only reason he wasn’t locked up was because they needed his knowledge for their survival. After this point Rush has repeatedly shown by his comments that he doesn’t care for human life. He advised Young to leave Scott because he wanted to get the water. He hasn’t been logical but cold and ruthless. He has also lied and tried to frame his commanding officer for murder.

Ha! Commanding officer? Rush isn't military! And as for leaving Scott behind, it's called "for the greater good". Rush is thinking of the entire crew, which happens to include himself, rather than for one man.


Some people have argued that Young’s action to strand him was far too drastic and that Rush didn’t deserve it and lying about it when he returned made it worse. If Young was back on Earth then I would agree with them that he should have been bought back to face charges and Young would have no business taking the law into his own hands. But Young and the Destiny crew are not on Earth. Their situation is dire and the crew is barely hanging together.

Which gives him the right to play judge, jury, and executioner? No one should have the power to play God with someone's life in their hands.


Bringing him back to face charges would likely have resulted in different factions developing. Wray would have jumped at the opportunity to use the situation to press for her own command. She probably would back Rush and agree with him that Young was unfit for command and would seek support from the crew. The military would then likely line up behind Young. The resulting power struggle could have been catastrophic for the ship. Young stepped down to Wray initially to prevent exactly this type of disastrous situation from developing. The only hope the ship has of surviving is if everyone works together cooperatively under a clear chain of command. Bring Rush back could have created a situation of enmity and distrust among the crew that they may never have recovered from.

The fact is, Young is unfit for command. Young is hot-tempered. He can't think logically. Rather, he "thinks" with his fists. It doesn't even look like he can debate a point, rather, he punches the nose of it. Now, what do you think will happen when Rush comes back? That, the enmity and distrust that was foretold by you will simply dissipate? My opinion is that it will grow.


I think the closest Earth situation that their circumstances would compare to would be a naval ship with limited supplies under battle conditions adrift in the middle of the ocean. In this condition the captain has far more justified authority to take drastic measures to maintain disciple and insure survival. The wartime shooting of deserters and other lawbreakers are examples. Young made a very hard choice and picked the lesser of two evils and imo passing summary judgment on Rush the way he did was appropriate and what was best for Destiny.

You wouldn't shoot the smartest person, who was deserting, would you? Would be a dumb move. Just capture the person, and lock them, until you need them. Young just alienated Rush, and the scientists of the crew.

[Taiko]

I can't believe I just read the above????? you're kidding, right?

If divorce is not an option then tell your spouse you are going to live separately and start new relationships (in other words be honest about your intentions) then if you want to start new relationships go ahead, (even Roman Catholics are allowed to divorce so I'm not sure if that is correct?)

and the part about referring to a mistress/lover as an Aunt, and any offspring of the affair are siblings, OMG OMG OMG, I am speechless!!!!!

If they divorce they are not allowed to start new relationships and stay in full communion with the church in effect they are adulterers no matter what the secular state decides. In Protestant think among fundamentalist the sin of starting a new relationship is just adultery and just as great as fornication if they were theologically free to but choose not to marry.

In Philippine culture it is more acceptable for a wife to have a husband keep a mistress, a kabit, a querida three days a week then to leave her, the wife seven days a week. She then becomes a woman who could not hold onto a man. Unless she is a celebrity the best she can look forward to is to be a mistress for some other man or the girlfriend of a man whose wife would not accept his cheating, which usually happens because he was to open about his mistresses. The best case scenario is if he keeps the mistress secret the an elaborate don't ask don't tell situation exist. And if the husband is Muslim he even has religious backing to have more then one woman.

[lordofseas]

ah come on, Young punched him first and Rush responded in kind, and at least Rush didn't lie to Young,

and that is what is making me think and question why????? why did Rush provoke the fight even further? Why did he tell Young the truth, I'm sure he knew Young would have started punching him.

I suspect in a strange way Rush wanted to be marooned there so he can power up that ship. and taking that further Rush knew that ship was on that planet, Rush is the one stopping Destiny, Rush knows way more than he's letting on.

I may be wrong but it's Rush's fault, he's so sneaky, and I love it!

Why did Rush provoke the fight further? Because, Young started it. You get the schoolboy mentality here. :P "He started it!!!"

[Shpinxinator]

What people need to understand is every member of the crew is in a symbotic relationship with everyone else...they ALL NEED EACHOTHER...when any one dies it's a huge loss...

[lordofseas]

If they divorce they are not allowed to start new relationships and stay in full communion with the church in effect they are adulterers no matter what the secular state decides. In Protestant think among fundamentalist the sin of starting a new relationship is just adultery and just as great as fornication if they were theologically free to but choose not to marry.

In Philippine culture it is more acceptable for a wife to have a husband keep a mistress, a kabit, a querida three days a week then to leave her, the wife seven days a week. She then becomes a woman who could not hold onto a man. Unless she is a celebrity the best she can look forward to is to be a mistress for some other man or the girlfriend of a man whose wife would not accept his cheating, which usually happens because he was to open about his mistresses. The best case scenario is if he keeps the mistress secret the an elaborate don't ask don't tell situation exist. And if the husband is Muslim he even has religious backing to have more then one woman.

I laugh. I laugh, because my mother would have torn out my father's eyes if this was even happening.

[lordofseas]

What people need to understand is every member of the crew is in a symbotic relationship with everyone else...they ALL NEED EACHOTHER...when any one dies it's a huge loss...

*shrugs* Spencer.

[Shpinxinator]

*shrugs* Spencer.

Well yeah...but he took his own life...Young wanted to stay behind with Scott was noble but ultimately risked them losing 2 men...and....Young did strand Rush

[smooTh__]

If Rush were to die then the only legal extra that can be done is a civil wrongful death suit, not a murder charge.


Here, (Norway) if I were to kidnap you and strand you on an island, and this leading to you dieing on that island, I would be charged with murder.

If you were not to die I am a little more unsure, but a attempted murder charge isn't unlikely.

[Shpinxinator]

Quick question...is the views on devorce in the philippines being talked about? Young isn't Filipino

[Taiko]

Quick question...is the views on devorce in the philippines being talked about? Young isn't Filipino

The universal absolute about sexual morality was posted, I am merely suggesting the attitude is not universal as suggested. Do we know that Young is not or wishes to be a more fundamentalist Muslim or perhaps a member of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints living outside of one of their small town communities? He didn't join with the Christian prayer circle in Light if memory serves.

For the record only people who married under Sharia law can divorce in the Philippines.

[Blackhole]

Ha! Commanding officer? Rush isn't military! And as for leaving Scott behind, it's called "for the greater good". Rush is thinking of the entire crew, which happens to include himself, rather than for one man.

Which gives him the right to play judge, jury, and executioner? No one should have the power to play God with someone's life in their hands.

The fact is, Young is unfit for command. Young is hot-tempered. He can't think logically. Rather, he "thinks" with his fists. It doesn't even look like he can debate a point, rather, he punches the nose of it. Now, what do you think will happen when Rush comes back? That, the enmity and distrust that was foretold by you will simply dissipate? My opinion is that it will grow.

You wouldn't shoot the smartest person, who was deserting, would you? Would be a dumb move. Just capture the person, and lock them, until you need them. Young just alienated Rush, and the scientists of the crew.


And as for leaving Scott behind, it's called "for the greater good". Rush is thinking of the entire crew, which happens to include himself, rather than for one man.

You think leaving someone to die in a crevasse when there is time to save him is for the greater good.

I see why you support Rush.


Which gives him the right to play judge, jury, and executioner? No one should have the power to play God with someone's life in their hands.

It has happened many times in the military.


The fact is, Young is unfit for command. Young is hot-tempered. He can't think logically. Rather, he "thinks" with his fists. It doesn't even look like he can debate a point, rather, he punches the nose of it.

He punched a guy who took advantage of his distance from earth to try to sabotage his relationship with his wife. What do you expect him to do, ask Telford nicely to please stop?

Given what Rush had just done to Young a beating is the least he deserved.

Again, I see why you support Rush.


You wouldn't shoot the smartest person, who was deserting, would you?

I would if the guy was responsible for 5 deaths and a coma and boasted that he was never going to stop and I thought it was the only way to prevent him from hurting anyone else and that it would maintain peace on the Destiny.

[Cobra847]

Young, considering the circumstances and problems the crew is facing, is one damn good commanding officer.

Loosing his temper is simply natural, he is still human, however he manages to be fair and keep the crew prioritized. Who knows what steps Rush would've taken in the future to eliminate Young?

[jelgate]

Ha! Commanding officer? Rush isn't military! And as for leaving Scott behind, it's called "for the greater good". Rush is thinking of the entire crew, which happens to include himself, rather than for one man.
That is hilarious. Rush only thinks about what benefits him. Air anyone?


Which gives him the right to play judge, jury, and executioner? No one should have the power to play God with someone's life in their hands.

Under normal circumstances no one but this is hardly normal circumstances especially when you consider Rush doesn't give a damn about other lives. He considers himself more important



The fact is, Young is unfit for command. Young is hot-tempered. He can't think logically. Rather, he "thinks" with his fists. It doesn't even look like he can debate a point, rather, he punches the nose of it. Now, what do you think will happen when Rush comes back? That, the enmity and distrust that was foretold by you will simply dissipate? My opinion is that it will grow.

I think they are all unfit for command. The stress of the Destiny has gotten back. I doubt Rush will say anything when he returns. He is pretty equal in terms of questionable action and he doesn't have the support that Young has

You wouldn't shoot the smartest person, who was deserting, would you? Would be a dumb move. Just capture the person, and lock them, until you need them. Young just alienated Rush, and the scientists of the crew.[/QUOTE]

[Blackhole]

Young, considering the circumstances and problems the crew is facing, is one damn good commanding officer.

Loosing his temper is simply natural, he is still human, however he manages to be fair and keep the crew prioritized. Who knows what steps Rush would've taken in the future to eliminate Young?

I agree.

[Blackhole]

Here, (Norway) if I were to kidnap you and strand you on an island, and this leading to you dieing on that island, I would be charged with murder.

If you were not to die I am a little more unsure, but a attempted murder charge isn't unlikely.

Good analogy. Rush effectively kidnapped everyone when he dialed the 9th Chevron instead of another gate in the Milky Way Gallaxy that would have gotten them home.

[eonflux]

Here, (Norway) if I were to kidnap you and strand you on an island, and this leading to you dieing on that island, I would be charged with murder.

If you were not to die I am a little more unsure, but a attempted murder charge isn't unlikely.

Could you provide us with a link because I would like to read it very much. Because im wondering how the persecutor established the high risk and intent of murder in this case.

[Targust]

The fact is, Young is unfit for command. Young is hot-tempered. He can't think logically. Rather, he "thinks" with his fists. It doesn't even look like he can debate a point, rather, he punches the nose of it. Now, what do you think will happen when Rush comes back? That, the enmity and distrust that was foretold by you will simply dissipate? My opinion is that it will grow.

You wouldn't shoot the smartest person, who was deserting, would you? Would be a dumb move. Just capture the person, and lock them, until you need them. Young just alienated Rush, and the scientists of the crew.

I agree with you. Remember, Young was only the CO of the Icarus Base, it was going to be Telford in charge if they ever got thru the gate. Young has no business being there like the rest of the people. Still, he's military and even though he's washed up he still has rules to follow.

Granted, not everyone can be Jack O'Neill. :)

[Blackhole]

Could you provide us with a link because I would like to read it very much. Because im wondering how the persecutor established the high risk and intent of murder in this case.

Come on, the point is obvious. It is analogous to the waiting driver of a get away car being charged with murder if his accomplish killed someone during his commission of a crime.

[Targust]

Good analogy. Rush effectively kidnapped everyone when he dialed the 9th Chevron instead of another gate in the Milky Way Gallaxy that would have gotten them home.

Very true, this. He was bound and determined to get to that 9th chevron regardless of the consequences.

[eonflux]

Come on, the point is obvious. It is analogous to the waiting driver of a get away car being charged with murder if his accomplish killed someone during his commission of a crime.

Thats involuntary manslaughter. And is NOT charged the same as murder. If everyone would think like you it would be a mess.

Earlier someone said If he would rob a bank and someone would die because of an hart attack the person would be charged with murder. I wonder how the prosecutor is going to prove the person would not have received the hart attack that day.

Let me put it this way. If it was earth. With the false testimony Rush gave. Young would have ended in jail. And now Young dies in jail. In the aftermath Would Rush be accused of murder ?

[ARealArchaeologist]

Thats involuntary manslaughter. And is NOT charged the same as murder. If everyone would think like you it would be a mess.

Earlier someone said If he would rob a bank and someone would die because of an hart attack the person would be charged with murder. I wonder how the prosecutor is going to prove the person would not have received the hart attack that day.

Let me put it this way. If it was earth. With the false testimony Rush gave. Young would have ended in jail. And now Young dies in jail. In the aftermath Would Rush be accused of murder ?

This is easier to understand if you look at it as intent, which most Western law systems base many convictions on. Rush only wanted to get Young out of command, had Young gone to jail and died, Rush could only be convicted of contempt of court, or simply put lying. A lawyer could try and argue for more, but few judges or juries would feel they were able to convict based on the series of events that happened after. Many go to jail under false information and don't die in jail and some do, so the randomness would lead any judge to shy away from conviction . Whereas Young did have intent, he left Rush on that planet to die, he realized what would happen if Rush did not come back to the ship.

[Blackhole]

Thats involuntary manslaughter. And is NOT charged the same as murder. If everyone would think like you it would be a mess.

Earlier someone said If he would rob a bank and someone would die because of an hart attack the person would be charged with murder. I wonder how the prosecutor is going to prove the person would not have received the hart attack that day.

Let me put it this way. If it was earth. With the false testimony Rush gave. Young would have ended in jail. And now Young dies in jail. In the aftermath Would Rush be accused of murder ?

I am not an attorney but I thought that the driver would be charged with the same degree of murder as the person that did the actual killing. If someone with legal experience knows for sure please chime in.

[Taiko]

I am not an attorney but I thought that the driver would be charged with the same degree of murder as the person that did the actual killing. If someone with legal experience knows for sure please chime in.

Its called the felony murder law in most US states. The Districts Attorney determine whether to charge the lower or higher level offense. In some jursdictions a jury can find guilt on a lower charge and not guilty on the higher. I'm not sure about the UCMJ, a murder occured in my Brigade but I was no way invovled in it.

[Blackhole]

Its called the felony murder law in most US states. The Districts Attorney determine whether to charge the lower or higher level offense. In some jursdictions a jury can find guilt on a lower charge and not guilty on the higher. I'm not sure about the UCMJ, a murder occured in my Brigade but I was no way invovled in it.

Thanks for the info. Since you are a military person I have a question for you.

I agree that what Young did was wrong and under normal circumstances would never be allowed. Do you know if the military would view it differently with Young if they agreed with his view that Rush was a genuine danger to those on board Destiny and to their continued survival? What if they agreed with him that Rush didn't want to go home and would if given the opportunity likely try to sabotage all their return efforts and put everyone in jeopardy? Would Young’s Summary Judgment so to speak be overlooked and no charges pressed? Or would he be expected to bring him back regardless of his danger to the ship and have him incarcerated? I am not advocating lawlessness but I believe there are situations where what is legal and what is moral are sometimes different and where taking the law into one’s hands may not be legal but is appropriate and justified at least in my view.

An example would be a parent that is on trial for killing a man that had badly molested their child and had gotten off because of a technicality. If it was me on their jury I wouldn’t convict regardless of what the law was.

[Taiko]

Thanks for the info. Since you are a military person I have a question for you.

I agree that what Young did was wrong and under normal circumstances would never be allowed. Do you know if the military would view it differently with Young if they agreed with his view that Rush was a genuine danger to those on board Destiny and to their continued survival? What if they agreed with him that Rush didn't want to go home and would if given the opportunity likely try to sabotage all their return efforts and put everyone in jeopardy? Would Young’s Summary Judgment so to speak be overlooked and no charges pressed? Or would he be expected to bring him back regardless of his danger to the ship and have him incarcerated? I am not advocating lawlessness but I believe there are situations where what is legal and what is moral are sometimes different and where taking the law into one’s hands may not be legal but is appropriate and justified at least in my view.

An example would be a parent that is on trial for killing a man that had badly molested their child and had gotten off because of a technicality. If it was me on their jury I wouldn’t convict regardless of what the law was.

Maybe someone who served with Mr. Christian and Captain Bligh might face such a situation, nobody in the modern military faces being cutoff for a lifetime

[Blackhole]

Maybe someone who served with Mr. Christian and Captain Bligh might face such a situation, nobody in the modern military faces being cutoff for a lifetime

Do you think Young's actions were inexcusable?

Should he have brought him back to Destiny to face charges?

[eonflux]

This is easier to understand if you look at it as intent, which most Western law systems base many convictions on. Rush only wanted to get Young out of command, had Young gone to jail and died, Rush could only be convicted of contempt of court, or simply put lying. A lawyer could try and argue for more, but few judges or juries would feel they were able to convict based on the series of events that happened after. Many go to jail under false information and don't die in jail and some do, so the randomness would lead any judge to shy away from conviction . Whereas Young did have intent, he left Rush on that planet to die, he realized what would happen if Rush did not come back to the ship.

This is what Im arguing since my first post. Can you prove the intent. Do we know for a fact that Rush would not be able to survive on this planet? From the Data the received back. Oxygen etc. You can conclude: There is Vegetation and if vegetation exists water exists else vegetation would not exist. You could also argue Rush could lead a normal life but die a lonely man.

Don't forget they also left 2 other people behind on a planet.

I wish someone who has knowledge of this specificness of 'Marooning' would speak up This is not the same as a mom leaving her children to fend for themselves.

[eonflux]

Do you think Young's actions were inexcusable?

Should he have brought him back to Destiny to face charges?

As a person im going to be honest and say i don't know how I would have handled this. But since Young is a leader best thing was to confront Rush in a hearing. That would have done Rush more damage.

[Kaiphantom]

This is what Im arguing since my first post. Can you prove the intent. Do we know for a fact that Rush would not be able to survive on this planet? From the Data the received back. Oxygen etc. You can conclude: There is Vegetation and if vegetation exists water exists else vegetation would not exist. You could also argue Rush could lead a normal life but die a lonely man.

There didn't appear to be a lot of vegetation; who knows how far away it was and whether it was even edible. I'll drop you off in the middle of the sahara. There is vegetation on Earth, so I'm not condemning you to die or anything.


Don't forget they also left 2 other people behind on a planet.
They had no choice there. Those two people went on their own, didn't dial back, and Destiny left. Don't bring that into this discussion as the situations don't match up.


I wish someone who has knowledge of this specificness of 'Marooning' would speak up This is not the same as a mom leaving her children to fend for themselves.

The "Marooning" argument needs to die. Marooning was usually done by dropping off people on an island, where they could expect to find water, fruits/vegetables to eat, and perhaps wildlife to hunt. It was a far cry from leaving someone in the midst of a rocky waste with no clue as to whether there is water or anything edible within a decent range.

It's an attempt to sugar-coat what has been done. If the facts were known, and Rush died, Young would be guilty of premeditated negligent homicide. If Rush survives, he would still be guilty of intent to cause harm and attempted murder. And this is only on top of what he'd be smacked with in a military court because of his role as military commander in charge.

[Wildrose-Wally]

Yes, that's right. A military court would certainly not consider the successful attempt to have him removed from his post. That is not relevant in this situation.

[Lord Hurin]

There didn't appear to be a lot of vegetation; who knows how far away it was and whether it was even edible. I'll drop you off in the middle of the sahara. There is vegetation on Earth, so I'm not condemning you to die or anything.


They had no choice there. Those two people went on their own, didn't dial back, and Destiny left. Don't bring that into this discussion as the situations don't match up.



The "Marooning" argument needs to die. Marooning was usually done by dropping off people on an island, where they could expect to find water, fruits/vegetables to eat, and perhaps wildlife to hunt. It was a far cry from leaving someone in the midst of a rocky waste with no clue as to whether there is water or anything edible within a decent range.

It's an attempt to sugar-coat what has been done. If the facts were known, and Rush died, Young would be guilty of premeditated negligent homicide. If Rush survives, he would still be guilty of intent to cause harm and attempted murder. And this is only on top of what he'd be smacked with in a military court because of his role as military commander in charge.

It's easy to come to this conclusion when you're so obviously biased. ;)

Show me premeditation. Young DID actually try to drop it and attempt to move on. Rush basically spat in his face.

[eonflux]

They had no choice there. Those two people went on their own, didn't dial back, and Destiny left. Don't bring that into this discussion as the situations don't match up.
What do you mean, doesn't match?
They left on there own like Rush did. They dial-ed stepped in. Greer shot the person who had the DHD so he could not enter also. Resulting in them being stranded.

Young, did not step into the gate to leave Rush there. He wanted a discussion. It didn't go well. He asked Rush if they where done. Rush said they would never be done...
Who says that Rush and the rest will survive on the ship for a fact. They are low on resources and food.
So stop with the premeditation and proven intent. Because it's not the case.We can argue/theorize what we want. But since none of us has expertise in trailing this it leaves only speculation. We don't even know under witch type of murder, if any this falls...

[EllieVee]

My best guess for doing the deed behind closed doors was to avoid a possible political crap storm with the IOA and decreasing moral amongst the remaining survivors. I'm think Stargate Command still has the power to relieve Young of duty via the stones so that's another crap storm to not have to worry about.

And Rush probably made it personal with Young when he defyed a very direct order not to mess around with the chair because it could kill people and to make it worst, he framed Young as well, that's like a biatch slap to the face. People who can't see why the fat guy who sat in the chair was a direct result of Rush's actions are just not smart enough to figure it out.

He didn't defy a direct order. He had Wray's permission. As for your little swipe at those who think better of Rush than you do, if you have to do that to make your point then it doesn't say much about you, does it.


It's easy to come to this conclusion when you're so obviously biased. ;)

Show me premeditation. Young DID actually try to drop it and attempt to move on. Rush basically spat in his face.

Oh hilarious! Young beats the crap out of him and then says 'Are we done?' Sure, that's dropping it.


What do you mean, doesn't match?
They left on there own like Rush did. They dial-ed stepped in. Greer shot the person who had the DHD so he could not enter also. Resulting in them being stranded.

Young, did not step into the gate to leave Rush there. He wanted a discussion. It didn't go well. He asked Rush if they where done. Rush said they would never be done...
Who says that Rush and the rest will survive on the ship for a fact. They are low on resources and food.
So stop with the premeditation and proven intent. Because it's not the case.We can argue/theorize what we want. But since none of us has expertise in trailing this it leaves only speculation. We don't even know under witch type of murder, if any this falls...

If Young wanted just a discussion he could have done it on the ship. This was premeditated.

[Lord Hurin]

He didn't defy a direct order. He had Wray's permission. As for your little swipe at those who think better of Rush than you do, if you have to do that to make your point then it doesn't say much about you, does it.



Oh hilarious! Young beats the crap out of him and then says 'Are we done?' Sure, that's dropping it.

Ummm... are you saying that Rush didn't deserve that? After framing Young and then rubbing it in his face about how it was all well and good? Seriously??

I don't know how people figure Rush is a good person. So far, what good have we seen him do that didn't benefit him? He got everyone stuck on Destiny in the first place, which everyone seems to forget/ look past. Would Senator Armstrong, Palmer and Curtis, Sgt Spencer, etc have died had they dialed Earth like they were supposed to? Likely not.

Robert Carlisle is an incredible actor, and I immensely enjoy seeing him portray this character. That doesn't mean I like the character on a personal level. He hasn't done one thing in 10 episodes to make me empathize with him.

[Lord Hurin]

If Young wanted just a discussion he could have done it on the ship. This was premeditated.

It was? Show me where it says that. I think that he wanted to confront Rush and try to get him to own up away from the rest of the crew.

In your mind it really is "Rush is a saint and Young is a douchebag" and there's no changing that.

[smooTh__]

Young, did not step into the gate to leave Rush there. He wanted a discussion. It didn't go well. He asked Rush if they where done. Rush said they would never be done...


This is also speculation. You don't know what Young would have done differently, if anything, if Rush replied with something like "yes we are done". I agree it's likely he would tho, but still, speculation.

And also you cannot lead a "normal" life when your stranded on a planet on your own like Rush was. Maybe, if your lucky, you can live as a caveman, most likely you will die sooner rather than later.

[EllieVee]

Ummm... are you saying that Rush didn't deserve that? After framing Young and then rubbing it in his face about how it was all well and good? Seriously??

Yes, seriously. He did not deserve to have the crap beaten out of him; he did not deserve to be abandoned, essentially sentenced to death.


I don't know how people figure Rush is a good person. So far, what good have we seen him do that didn't benefit him? He got everyone stuck on Destiny in the first place, which everyone seems to forget/ look past. Would Senator Armstrong, Palmer and Curtis, Sgt Spencer, etc have died had they dialed Earth like they were supposed to? Likely not.

What good has Young done?


Robert Carlisle is an incredible actor, and I immensely enjoy seeing him portray this character. That doesn't mean I like the character on a personal level. He hasn't done one thing in 10 episodes to make me empathize with him.

Carlyle.

Rush, to me (outside of TJ), is the only sympathetic character on the ship.

[EllieVee]

It was? Show me where it says that. I think that he wanted to confront Rush and try to get him to own up away from the rest of the crew.

In your mind it really is "Rush is a saint and Young is a douchebag" and there's no changing that.

And in your mind, Rush is a douchebag and Young is a saint.

You don't know that Young wanted a discussion. He didn't, for example, say, 'Hey Nick, let's have a chat.' Show me where he said that. He started out with an accusation and when it deteriorated, king hit Rush and continued to do so until the man was unconscious. And when he was finished, he walked away and left him there then lied about it.

[Wildrose-Wally]

And in your mind, Rush is a douchebag and Young is a saint.

You don't know that Young wanted a discussion. He didn't, for example, say, 'Hey Nick, let's have a chat.' Show me where he said that. He started out with an accusation and when it deteriorated, king hit Rush and continued to do so until the man was unconscious. And when he was finished, he walked away and left him there then lied about it.


Hmmm, you missed the part where Young said "Are we done?", and Rush's reply to that.

[LoneStar1836]

Come on, the point is obvious. It is analogous to the waiting driver of a get away car being charged with murder if his accomplish killed someone during his commission of a crime.


I am not an attorney but I thought that the driver would be charged with the same degree of murder as the person that did the actual killing. If someone with legal experience knows for sure please chime in.In Texas you can be under a law called the "Law of Parties" (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.7.htm).

Rush was certainly selfish when he went on and dialed the 9th chevron, but even under this Texas law (which I support because they just executed this pos (http://www.txexecutions.org/reports/446.asp) who was convicted of capital murder using it), I wouldn't find Rush responsible for murder even if he forced them to the Destiny. He may have been negligently reckless because of his selfishness over his obsession, but nothing he has done even approaches the level of murder.



If Young wanted just a discussion he could have done it on the ship. This was premeditated. Agreed. Unless Young just absolutely couldn't wait to beat the crap out of Rush. I can't say without a doubt that Young gated to the planet with no intention of leaving Rush there.

[Phenomenological]

Hmmm, you missed the part where Young said "Are we done?", and Rush's reply to that.

So Rush saying 5 words made up Young's mind? Young didn't pre-meditate it. He just has disgustingly serious anger problems, and impulsively left Rush to die. He is not mentally stable nor suitable to be commander.

[Lord Hurin]

Yes, seriously. He did not deserve to have the crap beaten out of him; he did not deserve to be abandoned, essentially sentenced to death.

What should've happened then? He just be allowed to walk off? Free and clear? To be clear, I disagree with leaving him behind as well. Letting him get off scott free though would set a bad example.


What good has Young done?

He got ice from the water planet, saving Scott's life in the process; he has kept things mostly in check. Just this episode, he stepped down willingly to prevent any potential for the soldiers getting rowdy. It's also not so much direct "good" that he's done as it is harm he hasn't done.


Carlyle.

Oops. There's a town 10 minutes from me called "Carlisle" must've gotten the ol' wires crossed ;)


Rush, to me (outside of TJ), is the only sympathetic character on the ship.

Really? Not even Eli falls into that category? By all rights, he shouldn't even be there but I digress. What has Rush done that makes you sympathize with him? The lying? The framing? The arrogance? The yelling? The douchebaggery?

[Phenomenological]

What has Rush done that makes you sympathize with him? The lying? The framing? The arrogance? The yelling? The douchebaggery?

Being rational and productive since they got to the ship rather than faffing around.

[Lord Hurin]

And in your mind, Rush is a douchebag and Young is a saint.

You don't know that Young wanted a discussion. He didn't, for example, say, 'Hey Nick, let's have a chat.' Show me where he said that. He started out with an accusation and when it deteriorated, king hit Rush and continued to do so until the man was unconscious. And when he was finished, he walked away and left him there then lied about it.

I don't think Young is a saint at all. In fact, one of the most disappointing things the show has done, in my opinion, is take a character who was pretty calm and level headed at the beginning and dragged him down so much. By the end of "Light" I was really loving Young's character and thinking he was in charge, but not without considering everyone on board. These most recent episodes have completely taken that away from him.

The point is that neither of us know what his intentions were. It's even possible that he didn't. That's why this is able to be debated.

[Lord Hurin]

Being rational and productive since they got to the ship rather than faffing around.

Productive to what end? Short term, yeah since he needs food, water, air etc as well. When it comes to trying to get home, I think he'll be putting major roadblocks up.

[Wildrose-Wally]

So Rush saying 5 words made up Young's mind? Young didn't pre-meditate it. He just has disgustingly serious anger problems, and impulsively left Rush to die. He is not mentally stable nor suitable to be commander.

I don't think Young ever made up his mind on that. He impulsive headbutted the jerk who'd been on his case the whole day now and indeed promised more of the same instead of dropping it.

After that, however, Young did indeed the wrong thing. He left Rush there.

[Phenomenological]

Productive to what end? Short term, yeah since he needs food, water, air etc as well. When it comes to trying to get home, I think he'll be putting major roadblocks up.

I'm still amazed how many of the crew are opposed to staying on the destiny. Out of all the presumably brilliant scientists assigned to the project, only Rush is curious about the ship?


I don't think Young ever made up his mind on that. He impulsive headbutted the jerk who'd been on his case the whole day now and indeed promised more of the same instead of dropping it.

After that, however, Young did indeed the wrong thing. He left Rush there.

If I was a member of the crew and I found out that Young got into a fight and then left the other person to die, I'd be leading the mob going to lock him up for good. No matter how much he regretted it that is a SERIOUS lapse of judgement, and not something you need from a CO.

[Lord Hurin]

I'm still amazed how many of the crew are opposed to staying on the destiny. Out of all the presumably brilliant scientists assigned to the project, only Rush is curious about the ship?

You see, one big gripe I have with the show is how dumb/ incompetent the other members of the science team are made out to be. It just doesn't fit that people hand-picked by Rush one day would be so "beneath" him the next.

And by all means they should explore the ship. I'd LOVE to see more of that and less of Young's wife and Chloe's mom. They shouldn't forget though that these people want to get home as soon as possible. For example, I enjoy my job but if I had to stay there with the same people all the time I'd be a nutcase. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but you get what I mean.

[Wildrose-Wally]

Leading a mob is not a very good idea; it brings you down to the same level. Better let the proper authorities handle the situation. After all, we already know they don't do anything that is not moral, like plotting to take over a command position. (Yes, that is a hidden stab at a low level beaurocrat working for the IOA)

[Kaiphantom]

Yes, that's right. A military court would certainly not consider the successful attempt to have him removed from his post. That is not relevant in this situation.

You don't understand how the military works. It is irrelevant. There are codes of conduct that military personnel are supposed to abide by. Young deliberately broke those.


It's easy to come to this conclusion when you're so obviously biased. ;)

Show me premeditation. Young DID actually try to drop it and attempt to move on. Rush basically spat in his face.

I am only biased towards logic. Those that aren't, well, they aren't very rational to talk to. Rush has his own issues, too, which I've gone into before. So stow the bias talk; only those that cry bias actually have it.

As for premeditation, Young announced he was going along. He knew what Rush did, and yet didn't bring the man up on charges. He sent the others back through the gate to stay with Rush. He attacked Rush and left him alone.

Any decent attorney can string those together to prove premeditation in court. Why didn't Young bring Rush up on charges? Why did he hide it? Why did he go along on this particular mission?

I pray you never find yourself in a real court of law; the lawyers will tear you apart.


What do you mean, doesn't match?
They left on there own like Rush did. They dial-ed stepped in. Greer shot the person who had the DHD so he could not enter also. Resulting in them being stranded.

Because they voluntarily stepped through. They were told not to, and they did it anyway. I don't know where you come from, but personal choices and responsibility mean something where I come from. They made the choice, even through they were told it could be dangerous. And they said they'd send a kino through to the other planet if they could, to contact those two, possibly giving them another dialing device if they could. They couldn't, because the air for the Destiny took priority.

Rush had no choice when Young stranded him there. So that argument is dead.


Who says that Rush and the rest will survive on the ship for a fact. They are low on resources and food.
You don't know what they have left. You don't know what they are finding. The sweet potato thing (and later the mashed potatoes), tells me they are finding additional sources of food and water. So that argument is dead.


So stop with the premeditation and proven intent. Because it's not the case.We can argue/theorize what we want. But since none of us has expertise in trailing this it leaves only speculation. We don't even know under witch type of murder, if any this falls...

Sorry, but I hope you never end up in court, either. Given what we know, any competent attorney can prove premeditation. Young was shown very deliberately setting things up so that they Rush eventually ended up abandoned to die.

[Wildrose-Wally]

You don't understand how the military works. It is irrelevant. There are codes of conduct that military personnel are supposed to abide by. Young deliberately broke those.

You are right, of course.

Maybe you can tell us how the military handles situations like these. How codes of conduct apply when a unit is completely cut of from the command structure and the CO is likely to have to make decisions that would normally be made by his superiors.

[Maxum]

Disagree. Rush is able to make the "hard" decisions, whether you agree with his decisions is one thing, but what he does is generally what he believes will benifit the majority of the crew.

Hard decisions? Rush makes the decisions that benefit his science. THAT is what he cares about more than anything else. Rush has no interest in what benefits the crew. He is interested, solely, in the Destiny and all of its secrets.


For Rush it isn't a personal vendetta. He thinks Young is a terrible commander and wants to be able to do his work without Young getting in the way.

I don't think Rush thinks Young is a terrible commander at all. I think Rush knows that Young has his number. Young doesn't have any blinders on when it comes to Rush, and Rush is unable to manipulate Young. THAT is the problem for Rush. He can manipulate and outsmart everyone else onboard the Destiny. He has only one opposition and that's Col. Young, which is why he framed him for murder.




And I honestly don't think it was premeditated. I think he told the others to leave cause he was planning to give Rush a whoopin' (which is pretty bad in and of itself). I don't think he made the decision to leave him behind until he said "We'll never be done" thing. Right then is when he made the decision, imo.

I agree. Young had the rest of the away team return to the gate so that he could confront Rush about the truth. The fight that ensued was a long time coming, but I don't think Young had any intention of leaving him behind after the fight. It was only when Rush told Young that their fights and confrontations and his manipulations would never be over that Young made the decision to leave him. Ironic that Rush was complaining that Young couldn't make the hard, life and death decisions. I guess that remark came back and bit him in the ass, huh?



Whether you wanna call it murder or attempted murder, the end result is that what Young did was wrong. He's been hounding Rush since day 1.

Hounded him? No, Young was able to see through Rush's lies and manipulations and called him on ever single one of them. Young has had to monitor Rush's decisions ever since they were stranded on board the Destiny.


Young caused Rush to snap.

So Young is now responsible for Rush's conduct? Interesting.


Hell, he could have avoided by allowing a volunteer in the first place. As long as the volunteer understood there was a risk of death, I would have stood up and offered. He wants to defend his own actions about dialing the gate to Earth, and so is hypocritical about Rush doing something similar.

No good commander would allow its crew to take that kind of a risk. The commander would ask for a lot more information to allow him to make an informed decision, and this is exactly what Young said to Rush. Give me more information. Young even told Rush that Rush could sit in the chair at anytime he wanted. Rush refused. Why? Because Rush knew that it would probably be lethal. What Rush wanted was someone ELSE to sit in the chair, and as many more after that, so that Rush could figure out the chair.

I'd stick with Young's course of action.



Young has repeatedly demonstrated that he cares about the crew and tries to do the honorable and right thing. Overall, in spite of a horrible situation I think he has made very good decisions.

Rush is brilliant and his knowledge is very valuable. Unfortunately he is also amoral and believes the means justify the end and may be a sociopath.

Great post. I think this is the truth in a nut shell.



The fact he had allowed Rush to join the expedition, and then waited for both of them to be alone on the planet's surface before confronting him, means the whole ordeal was PREMEDITATED.

No, the premeditation was about confronting Rush, not about leaving him behind. That happened after Young realized that Rush had no intention of changing his ways.


not really, they are now on the same level with young being unstable and vengeful.

They are not on the same level at all. Young has consistently put the lives of the Destiny first. The same is not true of Rush at all. Was I surprised by Young's actions? Yes. Do I think it was necessary at that point? Partly, yes. I don't see how Young would be able to contain Rush onboard the Destiny. He's too dangerous.


I think Young's popularity is on the decline at the moment because Life and Justice aired back-to-back. Young looks tarnished because he has made some big mistakes two episodes in a row.

His popularity is not on the decline for me. I also don't think he made big mistakes. He made decisions that he will have to take responsibility for later on, but I don't think they were mistakes.



No more good guy vs bad guy. Good guy always wins and retrieves their team predicitable BS and everyone lives happily ever after. This is free for all anarchy, well not completely yet, the only people stopping it from plunging into anarchy is Young and Scott. If those two were out of the picture, Destiny will become very barbaric.

So true. Just look at this past episode. Young is out of commission for just a few hours, and in that time, Rush manages to manipulate one of the crew, and gets him to sit in the chair. Now, he's in a coma. It's not a coincidence that this happened just hours after Young is relieved of command.


Young is worse.

Rush never killed anybody.

Neither has Young. You're making an assumption. You can do the same with Rush. It can be assumed that Rush knew that the Destiny would be able to survive flying through a star, and yet he never mentioned it to Young. Instead, 15 members of the crew got onto a shuttle and could have died. It can also be assumed that Rush manipulated Franklin into the chair, which led to his current condition.


Here's a question for you: given that Young knew the footage wasn't corrupted, why didn't he just out Rush on the ship there and then? Why go through all the rigmarole?

Because it wouldn't have stopped Rush from pulling the same stunts and manipulations in the future. He, himself, confirmed this fact to Young.


I agree with you. Remember, Young was only the CO of the Icarus Base, it was going to be Telford in charge if they ever got thru the gate.

And God help them if Telford had been in command. Telford already proved that the is a selfish and cowardly commander. At the very first sign of trouble, he cut and ran.



What good has Young done?

He's kept the peace on board the Destiny
He refused to leave Scott behind to die (even though Rush said he should)
He has tried to be reassuring to the crew
He has never put himself ahead of the rest of the crew (He took himself out of the lottery for those who would board the shuttle when they were flying towards a sun; he took himself out of the murder investigation when he knew he didn't have an alibi, etc.)
He wouldn't allow Rush to get people to sit in the chair to further his experiments. Instead, Young told Rush that he was free to use himself as the guinea pig, instead. Rush, of course, refused.

I think it's very difficult to be a military commander on board a broken ship with both military and civilian personnel and with people both on board the Destiny and back home on Earth trying to undermine you at every turn.

Young is not out for power or for himself. He just wants to go home. He's stuck on board the Destiny like everyone else, and he's trying to make the best decisions with what he has to work with. The fact that he loses his temper or gets emotional makes him human. The fact that he left Rush behind on a planet is Young making the hard and tough decisions that Rush said he wasn't capable of making.


Rush, to me (outside of TJ), is the only sympathetic character on the ship.

Rush is not sympathetic at all. At all. He's a great character, but he's not sympathetic. His complexities and ambiguity makes him such a fun character to watch, and I feel the same about Young. Both actors are great too.

[eonflux]

You don't understand how the military works. It is irrelevant. There are codes of conduct that military personnel are supposed to abide by. Young deliberately broke those.



I am only biased towards logic. Those that aren't, well, they aren't very rational to talk to. Rush has his own issues, too, which I've gone into before. So stow the bias talk; only those that cry bias actually have it.

As for premeditation, Young announced he was going along. He knew what Rush did, and yet didn't bring the man up on charges. He sent the others back through the gate to stay with Rush. He attacked Rush and left him alone.

Any decent attorney can string those together to prove premeditation in court. Why didn't Young bring Rush up on charges? Why did he hide it? Why did he go along on this particular mission?

I pray you never find yourself in a real court of law; the lawyers will tear you apart.



Because they voluntarily stepped through. They were told not to, and they did it anyway. I don't know where you come from, but personal choices and responsibility mean something where I come from. They made the choice, even through they were told it could be dangerous. And they said they'd send a kino through to the other planet if they could, to contact those two, possibly giving them another dialing device if they could. They couldn't, because the air for the Destiny took priority.

Rush had no choice when Young stranded him there. So that argument is dead.


You don't know what they have left. You don't know what they are finding. The sweet potato thing (and later the mashed potatoes), tells me they are finding additional sources of food and water. So that argument is dead.



Sorry, but I hope you never end up in court, either. Given what we know, any competent attorney can prove premeditation. Young was shown very deliberately setting things up so that they Rush eventually ended up abandoned to die.

Can you enlighten us how this military code of conduct works since the majory on that ship isnt military.

Maybe you need to stop being a prick. I dunno what your problem is but acting like this I highly doubt you are an attorney. You exhibit behaviour not fitting of one. An attorney can concoct whatever he want the question is it plausible for the jury.

I dunno how going along the mission equals premeditation. Let me explain to you what premeditation is. Telling someone im going to injure/kill someone.
Taking a knife from home and killing someone.
Me going to work, having an argument with someone on the train and me killing him is not premed. There is no attorney on this planet who can argue otherwise.

Why is withholding information all of sudden an offence. Young wasn't heard on the hearing ... explain please...

You seem to have no problem speculating about supplies Destiny has but you fully dismiss someone surviving on a planet. This a board is where we discuss possibilities. This not IM GOING TO SHUT YOU UP because I know im right.

Your post is insulting. This is how I said it and this is how it is... Grow up man!

[EllieVee]

Hmmm, you missed the part where Young said "Are we done?", and Rush's reply to that.

No, I didn't miss that at all. The problem is that we don't know what either man meant. No matter what people have said here, it's well open to interpretation. 'We'll never be done,' for example, could simply be a reaction to being beaten up. Who knows? I don't and neither does anyone else here.

[Kaiphantom]

You are right, of course.

Maybe you can tell us how the military handles situations like these. How codes of conduct apply when a unit is completely cut of from the command structure and the CO is likely to have to make decisions that would normally be made by his superiors.

Everyone who is trained to be an officer, or anyone who accepts the *responsibility* of a higher rank, is expected to know how to command. If they can't deal with it, they shouldn't take the higher rank, or resign their commission. To part of his credit, Young realized he wasn't up to it, and was planning to resign.

But crap happens, and now he's in charge. Jack gave him a dressing down to this very effect in the first few episodes. Young either needs to step up to the responsibility, or let someone else take command.

So the military has things in place. It's called re-organizing the command structure, with the highest rank in charge. I thought this would be obvious.


Can you enlighten us how this military code of conduct works since the majory on that ship isnt military.

Majority, is what I assume you mean. And it became military when Young assumed command, and the rest bowed to the military's guns. Not saying it was right or wrong, but that's the way Young and Scott wanted to play things. They either need to step up to the their responsibility, or cede command to someone else, like Wray.


Maybe you need to stop being a prick. I dunno what your problem is but acting like this I highly doubt you are an attorney. You exhibit behaviour not fitting of one. An attorney can concoct whatever he want the question is it plausible for the jury.

Ad hominem attacks are common from those who feel they can't make good points. I don't recall calling you any names.

And it's impossible for me to tell someone what the real world is like, if they lack knowledge of it and don't wish to learn. Suffice it to say, the very questions of Young's intent would be dissected in a court of law by any competent attorney.


I dunno how going along the mission equals premeditation. Let me explain to you what premeditation is. Telling someone im going to injure/kill someone.
Taking a knife from home and killing someone.
Me going to work, having an argument with someone on the train and me killing him is not premed. There is no attorney on this planet who can argue otherwise.

Look, I'm trying to spell this out as obvious as I can, and it's not getting through, so I'm gonna have to get a bit patronizing.

Young usually doesn't go along on standard missions, which this was. An attorney will immediately bring this up, that Young is acting different than normal. He decided to go on the mission after finding out Rush was going to go. He deliberately stayed behind with Rush, knowing Rush framed him, while sending everyone else away. An attorney will play that up to Young not wanting witnesses around.

It would be obvious to anyone that Young had something in mind as things went on. It wasn't a "spur of the moment" thing. "Young intended to confront Rush without witnesses and now he returns alone." Like I said, I really hope you don't have to step into a real court of law.


You seem to have no problem speculating about supplies Destiny has but you fully dismiss someone surviving on a planet. This a board is where we discuss possibilities. This not IM GOING TO SHUT YOU UP because I know im right.

Did you really watch the episode? Did you happen to notice all the dirt and rocks on that planet? Did you see any vegetation or water? Do you know for a fact that any vegetation present is even edible?

When you leave someone in a place with no food or water, and no realistic hope for them to obtain such, then you are deliberately causing negligent homicide. This is how it works in the US. If you aren't from this country, then I'd forgive you not knowing about our laws. A human body can't last more than 10 days without water. Less than that depending on temperature. And after a day or two, one's efficiency and strength does down greatly. Let me hook you up with a link:

http://www.survivaltopics.com/survival/how-long-can-you-survive-without-water/


Your post is insulting. This is how I said it and this is how it is... Grow up man!

It wasn't, but you chose to perceive it as such. I suggest you take your own advice first, and grow a thick skin. People in the real world will find what they say, and how they are perceived, to be annoying depending on subject. Children get upset at things easily. Mature adults are capable of holding a conversation, while working around each other's quirks and way of talking.

[IrishPisano]

quick question....

if Young was so concerned with someone not sitting in the chair
and knowing Rush's penchant for self-servient manipulation, why didn't Young simply post a 24-hour armed guard near the chair, with orders to prevent someone from sitting in the chair at all costs?

surely they can spare 1 person at any given time to do this.

that's the very first thing i would have done after explaining to Rush that no one is permitted to sit in the chair.

[Lord Hurin]

quick question....

if Young was so concerned with someone not sitting in the chair
and knowing Rush's penchant for self-servient manipulation, why didn't Young simply post a 24-hour armed guard near the chair, with orders to prevent someone from sitting in the chair at all costs?

surely they can spare 1 person at any given time to do this.

that's the very first thing i would have done after explaining to Rush that no one is permitted to sit in the chair.

Young did order Greer to have a guard posted after they found the chair in "Life" but I'm guessing removing that guard was one of the things Wray ordered when she gave Rush free reign over the science team and chair room.

[IrishPisano]

Young did order Greer to have a guard posted after they found the chair in "Life" but I'm guessing removing that guard was one of the things Wray ordered when she gave Rush free reign over the science team and chair room.

wow, i missed that

[Lord Hurin]

wow, i missed that

Well in fairness, we never actually see a guard in that room so it's easy to miss. During "Justice" for example, I was in the kitchen pouring tea and missed Chloe's jab at Wray about "throwing due process out the window."

[IrishPisano]

Well in fairness, we never actually see a guard in that room so it's easy to miss. During "Justice" for example, I was in the kitchen pouring tea and missed Chloe's jab at Wray about "throwing due process out the window."

well to have had Young order Greer to post a guard, and then to have said guard conveniently disappear in time for Rush to machiavelli someone into the chair is absent-minded writing....

especially if they made it a point to show, on screen, young ordering greer to post a guard.


plus, i doubt Wray would have ordered the guard removed
it's one thing to loosen the handcuffs on Rush, its another to be dumb enough to assume the chair is safe - especially given how it looks (apparatuses to more or less hold you in place... hmm...)

[Lord Hurin]

well to have had Young order Greer to post a guard, and then to have said guard conveniently disappear in time for Rush to machiavelli someone into the chair is absent-minded writing....

especially if they made it a point to show, on screen, young ordering greer to post a guard.


plus, i doubt Wray would have ordered the guard removed
it's one thing to loosen the handcuffs on Rush, its another to be dumb enough to assume the chair is safe - especially given how it looks (apparatuses to more or less hold you in place... hmm...)

I don't know, Wray seems pretty keen to put a stranglehold on the military's power and duties while she's in command. I think Rush would certainly have wanted the guard out of the room in any case, and possibly gotten Wray to relieve him or her.

[Blackhole]

There has been some heated discussion over whether Young’s actions were premeditated or spur of the moment. I am not quite clear on what points the different camps of posters are trying to make.

Usually premeditation when it is applied to murdering someone indicates a more severe form of the crime. As I understand, it means the person planned the crime in advance as opposed to reacting out of anger. More planning indicates a higher level of intent and therefore higher “wrongness”. In Young’s case premeditation would mean he intended to strand Rush before his confrontation with him. The way I view the whole situation is the more premeditation Young employed the more respect I would have for his action. I would hate to think he reacted solely out of anger when he decided to strand Rush. I would like to believe that Young made a measured choice to do severe harm to Rush because he believed it was in the best interests of the Destiny to do so and was not out of anger to get back at him. When he opted to pass Summary Judgment and left him on the planet he was making a very difficult choice between the lesser of two evils. As I have elaborated in detail already, I believe that Rush is culpable for all the subsequent deaths and one coma that have occurred on the Destiny since he forced their arrival there; he is a murderer and the severe action taken against him was therefore justified. Returning him for trial could have precipitated a factional conflict among the crew that they may never have recovered from. I also believe that Rush’s obsession with the Destiny may have caused him to try to sabotage any action that would have led to any Gate travel back to Earth out of fear that he would be forced to leave Destiny.

The reason I am taking so much time to make this distinction is I think the act of stranding Rush is less malevolent and more moral if Young’s intent to do so was to protect the Destiny and not to get back at Rush out of anger. Although, I do realize that one can rationalize almost anything. In any real world situation I would like to think a good leader could have controlled Rush and not have left him to die. The situation upon Destiny is unique and the pressures extreme, drastic measures may have been necessary and warranted.

Do I think Young was planning to strand Rush on the planet before he arrived there? IMO I think he was probably considering it but didn’t make his final decision until Rush acknowledged that no matter what Young did he was never going to stop. I think it was at this point that he decided to strand him. To my reckoning Young has always acted honorably and in the best interests of those under his command. He stood up to General O’Neill when he felt their rescue plan was too risky (at great peril to his future career). He took his name out of the lottery and stepped down to Wray to avoid anything that could give the appearance of impropriety and could have possibly factionalized the crew. He risked his life and expended a huge effort to save and return Lt. Scott from the ice planet. These aren’t the actions of a dishonorable or impulsive man. That is why I believe that his decision to strand Rush wasn’t out of anger or any vengeful or self-serving motives. I certainly can understand others not agreeing with Young’s decision but I don’t think you can fault his intent.

[EllieVee]

Blackhole, I find it somewhat ironic that you speak with such certainty about Rush and Young's motives yet it's all just speculation.

[Blackhole]

Blackhole, I find it somewhat ironic that you speak with such certainty about Rush and Young's motives yet it's all just speculation.

Your comment is meaningless. When can anyone ever be certain about any other person’s motives whether they be in fiction or in the real world? All one can do is look at past behaviors and conversations and make extrapolations of their intent. At least in TV shows and Movies we are granted a bird’s eye view of the characters’ dialog and actions. Please feel free to post any behaviors and dialogue from Young and Rush that contradicts my conclusions and I will be happy to examine them.

[EllieVee]

I've done so repeatedly, Blackhole.

[Kaiphantom]

The reason I am taking so much time to make this distinction is I think the act of stranding Rush is less malevolent and more moral if Young’s intent to do so was to protect the Destiny and not to get back at Rush out of anger.

Then Young should have shot him. That's why that argument falls apart. Young wants Rush to suffer and die. Or somehow thought that, because he didn't actually pull a trigger, he is a bit farther from the actual act, and thus feels a bit more morally superior.

[EllieVee]

Then Young should have shot him. That's why that argument falls apart. Young wants Rush to suffer and die. Or somehow thought that, because he didn't actually pull a trigger, he is a bit farther from the actual act, and thus feels a bit more morally superior.

Well, we don't know that. Perhaps he didn't start out with the intention of beating him up and leaving him there but that's what transpired. I think it was premeditated, others don't. I think if Young didn't want Rush harmed, he could easily have spoke to him on the ship. Why didn't he? Why didn't Young show everyone the whole footage? Why did he go down to the planet with Rush? And were this to come to trial, those questions would be asked.

[Mitchell82]

I really like the differing views here. It all comes down to how you saw the events of the last 10 episodes and how you view what is happening. Here's the way I see it. Some have said Young was paranoid about Rush and yeah maybe he was but I think he sensed he couldn't trust him like I did. I sensed from the start that Rush had his own agenda and I couldn't trust him. I love the Rush character but he certainly is not a trustworthy one. Young has had his suspicions about Rush for a long time and the last few episodes have shown that Rush will do anything to achive his goals no matter the risk or the cost. While what Young did was extreme so was what Rush did. Rush framed Young for murder so he could gain access to the chair. However Young did what he did not because of that but of what he did to the scientist (forgot his name). Young did not murder Rush he sentenced a traitor to exile. Man am I loving this sh**!

[Girlbot]

.
He's kept the peace on board the Destiny
He refused to leave Scott behind to die (even though Rush said he should)
He has tried to be reassuring to the crew
He has never put himself ahead of the rest of the crew (He took himself out of the lottery for those who would board the shuttle when they were flying towards a sun; he took himself out of the murder investigation when he knew he didn't have an alibi, etc.)
He wouldn't allow Rush to get people to sit in the chair to further his experiments. Instead, Young told Rush that he was free to use himself as the guinea pig, instead. Rush, of course, refused.

The fact that he left Rush behind on a planet is Young making the hard and tough decisions that Rush said he wasn't capable of making.

I agree with your assessment of Young.
although I thought Rush said they were decisions he didn't want to make.
I thought that was the reason he decided not to pursue these kinds of missions was because he didn't want to make the decisions, not that he was not capable of making them. those are two different things. He has shown the ablility to make tough decisions on may occasions, but the toll it takes to make them became in the past too difficult to continue doing, so he resigned.

[Girlbot]

Can someone tell me, if the kino tape that Young had Eli copy and then destroy, showed Rush taking Spencer's gun, or did it perhaps show Rush's involvement somehow with Franklin being in the chair? Young said I know what you did, but didn't really refer to Spencer, maybe I missed something .

[Kaiphantom]

Well, we don't know that. Perhaps he didn't start out with the intention of beating him up and leaving him there but that's what transpired. I think it was premeditated, others don't. I think if Young didn't want Rush harmed, he could easily have spoke to him on the ship.

It's similar to the situation with Telford. Young got angry at what Rush had done, and had set his mind to do whatever it took. That turned out to be beating him up and leaving him to die.

Now to answer your questions:
Why didn't he? - because he wanted Rush harmed. He wanted Rush out of the picture; he was tired of dealing with the man.

Why didn't Young show everyone the whole footage? - Emotions. Even if he had done so, Rush would still be there, on the ship

Why did he go down to the planet with Rush? - he saw an opportunity to get rid of Rush without anyone else to get an opportunity to question it or stop it. And there's no evidence that he did anything improper. A neat little package.


And were this to come to trial, those questions would be asked.

Yep. It might come to light how much Young has been riding him. The scientists were on Rush's side. They knew very well how Rush had been treated. Young would have ended up with a split crew if he tried the normal channels. He saw an avenue to get rid of Rush without questions being asked, and took it.

It's funny; Young started out as one of my favorite characters. But with each passing episode, he's just been going downhill. His emotions are flaring out of control and making each thing worse. It's going to come back to bite him.

[Blackhole]

Then Young should have shot him. That's why that argument falls apart. Young wants Rush to suffer and die. Or somehow thought that, because he didn't actually pull a trigger, he is a bit farther from the actual act, and thus feels a bit more morally superior.

Why should he have shot him? He just wanted him off Destiny not necessarily dead. Maybe he hoped Rush would survive? My assumption is that Young didn't make his final decision to strand Rush until after he asked 'are we done' and Rush replied 'he would never stop'. That is when he head butted him knocking him unconscious. At this point even if Young wanted to return to Destiny with him he probably wouldn't have made it trying to carry him.

Both of us at this point are just speculating as to what was going through his mind. I concluded that his intentions were more honorable because up to this point he has behaved very fairly and with great regard for life. Snapping and stranding Rush out of anger is imo out of character for him. He did beat up Teleford but he stopped once he was down. He could have kicked him but he didn’t. That action indicated restraint to me and that he didn’t want to seriously harm him especially when he could no longer defend himself. Stranding Rush was such a departure from my perceived sense of Young’s character that I concluded it was a measured decision by him for the greater good of the Destiny.

[Whitering]

I don't know about in the US, but under Canadian criminal law no person can consent to grievous bodily harm, and Young was certainly not justified in putting someone in a position he could expect to lead to death.

Rush did wrong, he obstructed justice. That is not deserving of a death sentence. I don't know about the military and mutiny though, Rush could certainly be described as being mutinous or treasonous.

So, I am hung on the issue. I don't practice criminal law, but I did my undergrad in criminology and this is by no means clear cut to me.

If we as viewers are meant to later believe that Rush fixes the alien ship and catches up with Destiny I will never watch the show again. In fact, I highly doubt I will watch it if Rush isn't on the show on any given week anyway as he is one of the very few characters I actually enjoy. Eli is too often hanging out with Chloe, and TJ is too often hanging around Scott for me to enjoy those interactions.

[mere earthling]

I can see where the pressure has been building up in Young.

Being on the Destiny wasn't a mission to begin with, Rush marooned all of them on that ship.

I believe Young went along with the intention of confronting Rush without interference from Wray or anyone else. One on one let's finally get this out. Rush pushes all of his buttons and he loses it.

Personally, I don't think he should've left him there, but as far as they know their situation may not be fixable. I can see him snapping on Rush.

[EllieVee]

Why should he have shot him? He just wanted him off Destiny not necessarily dead. Maybe he hoped Rush would survive? My assumption is that Young didn't make his final decision to strand Rush until after he asked 'are we done' and Rush replied 'he would never stop'. That is when he head butted him knocking him unconscious. At this point even if Young wanted to return to Destiny with him he probably wouldn't have made it trying to carry him.

Both of us at this point are just speculating as to what was going through his mind. I concluded that his intentions were more honorable because up to this point he has behaved very fairly and with great regard for life. Snapping and stranding Rush out of anger is imo out of character for him. He did beat up Teleford but he stopped once he was down. He could have kicked him but he didn’t. That action indicated restraint to me and that he didn’t want to seriously harm him especially when he could no longer defend himself. Stranding Rush was such a departure from my perceived sense of Young’s character that I concluded it was a measured decision by him for the greater good of the Destiny.

I don't think it's out of character unless something else is driving the extreme moods. I note that Rush fell the first time and then when he got up Young continued to beat him until he was unconscious. Doesn't indicate restraint there, does it, though your suggestion of the 'measured decision' condemns him even more. Another term for measured decision is premeditation.

[eonflux]

If we as viewers are meant to later believe that Rush fixes the alien ship and catches up with Destiny I will never watch the show again.

It is conformed that rush will be back on the show. But it's highly unlikely he will fly the ship back. He probably will start a chain of events that will result in his return.

[Crux]

Anyone else agree?

Just when I was beginning to like him, Young makes a brash decision that is derived solely from his own quick-to-anger personal emotions, and which will inevitably impact upon the entire crew of the Destiny. In previous episodes, Young has made it explicitly clear that he, and by extension, everyone else are reliant upon his expertise and ancient knowledge. He has now thrown the entire crew into jeopardy because of his own treatment at the hands of Rush. What kind of leader consistently places himself, and his own testosterone-fuelled agenda, ahead of those he is supposed to be guiding? What sort of leader bases his decisions on emotion rather than considered judgement?

The brilliant irony of the whole episode will hopefully come back to bite Young. That he has now turned into a deceitful murderer makes his position untenable. Once he is sounded out, he cannot possibly retain his leadership of the Destiny. I suspect however, that long before the reunion with Rush, the Destiny encounters yet more insurmountable problems and that thanks to Young, the crew's best hope of responding to such problems is now light years away.

Hopefully at this point, we will see something resembling a democracy onboard the Destiny, in which decisions regarding the lives of the entire crew are not taken by a single man with an alarming track record of resorting to violence when all reason abandons him. Honestly, you might as well place Greer in charge and have done with it. In both SG1 and SGA, there was de facto parity between the military and scientists, as well as respect. It was this equal dynamic which ensured their continued success in surviving the numerous threats that they faced. Young has now dismissed the winning formula practised by the SGC in favour of military dictatorship and as a result, will bring the entire mission into turmoil.

[ARealArchaeologist]

What do you mean, doesn't match?
They left on there own like Rush did. They dial-ed stepped in. Greer shot the person who had the DHD so he could not enter also. Resulting in them being stranded.

Young, did not step into the gate to leave Rush there. He wanted a discussion. It didn't go well. He asked Rush if they where done. Rush said they would never be done...
Who says that Rush and the rest will survive on the ship for a fact. They are low on resources and food.
So stop with the premeditation and proven intent. Because it's not the case.We can argue/theorize what we want. But since none of us has expertise in trailing this it leaves only speculation. We don't even know under witch type of murder, if any this falls...

I was going to wait and read more before commenting, but part of your argument is based on tv plot lines, and knowing that Rush will come back, so that it can't be so bad what Young did because Rush survives. We should all be viewing this the other way, with no tv knowledge. And the reason why the scenario is different is obvious, those people chose to go into that active stargate, and had Franklin made it through too, it would have stranded everyone on the desert planet. Destiny could dial the desert planet, but they would have no way to get back. And those two that went missing they didn't come back, or report when Eli was contacting them, meaning everyone would have been stranded. If I had been Greer I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be stranded by people being stupid.

[ARealArchaeologist]

I feel like I need to say something out loud. And it's my opinion, but I'm sure one that others would agree with. I don't like what Young did, and I do think it is something that will haunt him, but on the flip side of that, it does not mean that I think Rush is a saint, or a good person. I've said this is other posts, but I notice the minute you trash Young you are considered defending Rush and his former actions, and vice versa. There is no direct correlation. Those that love Young, and those that do love Rush should remember neither character is innocent. I love Rush and think that he is morally empty and self serving, and will probably kill a lot of people, but that is something that adds to the show and our discussions, so I don't mind him being there. Nor Young for that matter.

[Anon]

I feel like I need to say something out loud. And it's my opinion, but I'm sure one that others would agree with. I don't like what Young did, and I do think it is something that will haunt him, but on the flip side of that, it does not mean that I think Rush is a saint, or a good person. I've said this is other posts, but I notice the minute you trash Young you are considered defending Rush and his former actions, and vice versa. There is no direct correlation. Those that love Young, and those that do love Rush should remember neither character is innocent. I love Rush and think that he is morally empty and self serving, and will probably kill a lot of people, but that is something that adds to the show and our discussions, so I don't mind him being there. Nor Young for that matter.

SGU is character based.there are going to be huge twists like this, all the time. This is why i love sgu, because of the fans, and the twists.

[IrishPisano]

i don't think Young wanted to maroon Rush on that planet..... but unfortunately it was the only thing for Young to do in order to avoid having Rush continue with his plotting and scheming......

Rush pretty much admitted to Young that he would continue to stop at nothing to remove Young from the command structure

locking up Rush on the Destiny would accomplish little because you'd end up having to have him in jail permanently and under 24-7 armed guard in a room completely void of any and all computer/system interfaces, and deny him visitors....... which would be impossible to fully effect... either Rush will McGuyver a way to interface with the ship from said room, or Wray would run back to the LRCs and complain to Earth (which would open the doors for Young to declare martial law on the ship), or someone somehow would be able to get past the armed guard to visit Rush and slip him a handgun

so Young had 2 choices: continue to have Rush on the ship, which means continued scheming from him...... or remove Rush from the ship and hope that Eli et al can pick up the intellectual slack.

given Rush's penchant for forsaking the safety of the crew and his ongoing deliberate deception of Young and possibly Wray, and the inability for him to be a team player and be trusted by everyone on the ship is reason enough to remove him from the situation altogether...
while he (with Eli) is the only person capable of getting everyone back to earth
he is also the biggest danger to everyone on board

it's a tough call....
many ppl will tell you that the right decision is to keep Rush on board and work with him so that he learns to be more open and trustworthy....
though others will tell you that that is impossible for him to do...

[FallenAngelII]

Young is as bad as Rush, IMO.
Young is worse. Young practically murdered Rush in cold blood.

(Copy+Paste from the other thread)
The end kinda possibly (but we'll never know for sure) justified the means when Rush maneuvered Young from command. We've seen Young's instability and dubious morals in the past, the pratical rape of Telford's body, the beating him up (there are much more productive ways than resorting to violence).

In other words, Young is highly selfish and prone to violence when cornered or even when just ticked off. A lot of people may say that if one catches another man maybe sleeping with one's wife, a man has a right to beat the other man up. I'm of the opinion that that's an idiotic notion.

Couple that with what Rush said about Young in this episode, it was not entirely wrong for him to have Young removed from command. Now, the way in which he did it, however, was entirely immoral. But in a "Does the end justifies the means" scenario, I believe it does, especially when you think about what Young ends up doing.

What does he do? He practically murders Rush. He beats him up and leaves him for dead on a desert planet. Or at least he hopes Rush dies because he knows that if Rush ever makes it back on board the Destiny, his ass is toast.

Rush is manipulative and in many ways selfish. However, he has almost never made any machinations that were entirely for his own personal gain. Because most of the time, what serves as personal gain for Rush also serves as a gain for the expedition at large. And while he lies, cheats and manipulates, he's never actually physically hurt anyone or gotten anyone hurt. What's-his-face's idiocy in this episode cannot be blamed on Rush because unless we've just gonna assume there were instances where Rush covertly manipulated him into sitting in the chair.

Besides, Rush doesn't just want someone to sit in the chair for personal gain. He wants it also to help the expedition survive because at the end of the day, he just wants to survive.

Young, meanwhile, just beats up people he doesn't like and who makes him angry and has no qualms personally being the hand which kills a man for petty crimes. Let's not forget that he planned it. It was premeditated. He went on that mission (he even told Camille that it wasn't a request, that he was going and that was the end of it), he told everyone to go back to the gate and then confronted Rush about it.

If he just wanted a confrontation and the hurt, he could've easily waited until they got back on the ship and then confronted Rush. Instead, he ignored the marvelous opportunity the alien ship presented to the expedition and instead pretty much murdered Rush in cold blood. And he didn't even have the decency to give him a quick death. He chose instead to leave him to starve to death, a slow and excruciatingly painful procession. So, Young ignored the greater good of the expedition for his own personal vendetta, his own selfish aims. Because, really, do you really think he left Rush to die simply because he thought the expedition would be better off without him? How many crises has Rush solved on his own? The expedition will be worse without him. That's why so many people tolerated Rush despite his machinations: Rush was the devil they knew and at the end of the day, Rush would still have that burning desire to survive, ergo he'd do everything in his power to save them.

Do you really want someone like Young in command of the Destiny? Now, he might have made the right decisions most of the time, but when you look at his character, he clearly isn't leadership material, especially not of an expedition such as the Destiny expedition. Young is in many ways like the darker sides of John Sheppard, only in spades.

John Sheppard only pulled out his dark side once in a while, when the expedition really needed him to. He'd sometimes intimidate, use force and threaten, but he didn't do it willy nilly. Going by what we've seen of Young isofar, he's probably the kind of commander who would.

Say they encounter aliens who have something the expedition desperately needs, but they aren't immediately willing to help the expedition. Contrary to what most leaders are expected to do, Young would probably forgo extensive negotiations and instead just jump to "Attack and retrieve", possibly killing people who needn't die would he just negotiate with the aliens.


i don't think Young wanted to maroon Rush on that planet..... but unfortunately it was the only thing for Young to do in order to avoid having Rush continue with his plotting and scheming......

Rush pretty much admitted to Young that he would continue to stop at nothing to remove Young from the command structure
Young knew there was footage of Rush entering what's-his-face's room after he'd committed suicide.

He had a choice.

Also, you think that's justification? "He wants he out of command, ergo it's okay for me to have him killed through starvation!"? What is this BS?



locking up Rush on the Destiny would accomplish little because you'd end up having to have him in jail permanently and under 24-7 armed guard in a room completely void of any and all computer/system interfaces, and deny him visitors....... which would be impossible to fully effect... either Rush will McGuyver a way to interface with the ship from said room, or Wray would run back to the LRCs and complain to Earth (which would open the doors for Young to declare martial law on the ship), or someone somehow would be able to get past the armed guard to visit Rush and slip him a handgun
Or tell everyone on the ship about his scheming and they'll all be on notice.


so Young had 2 choices: continue to have Rush on the ship, which means continued scheming from him...... or remove Rush from the ship and hope that Eli et al can pick up the intellectual slack.
No, he had the choice to lock Rush up in his room. What the hell is Rush gonna be able to do if he MacGuyvers a way to interface with the ship from his own room (which is pretty much impossible because there's no way the Ancients would have built the ship to allow that)? Hold the ship hostage unless the ship makes them their leader or something?


given Rush's penchant for forsaking the safety of the crew and his ongoing deliberate deception of Young and possibly Wray, and the inability for him to be a team player and be trusted by everyone on the ship is reason enough to remove him from the situation altogether...
while he (with Eli) is the only person capable of getting everyone back to earth
he is also the biggest danger to everyone on board
So it's OK to kill him? He's not a serial killer. He's not an immediate danger to anyone. He's not going to just randomly kill people for fun.

What do you do with criminals? You lock them up. You don't kill them unless you have to.