How are the Ancients?

[KaiLynn]

After watching "Before I sleep" a couple of times I didn't agree with the idea that Ancients were stubborn. After I observed Janus, I felt him more like an ambitious, proud, gently, intelligent and happy man.

It's in contrast with those Ancients from the rest of the Galaxy or not?

Ps. Why Janus and the rest didn't came back. Is it possible that they were killed or went by a ship like Destiny to bring them home? What is your opinion?

[mirdin1992]

Janus was the only decent and sensible one of them. The rest were no good, pig headed *******s, with sticks stuck up to their pancreas.

Every one of them were annoying, point when the first living lanteans get to Atlantis do? Kick the guys who made it run and saved it for the past 3-4 years and get their buts kicked and head jabed because they wouldn't take their merry time to raise the shield and specifically asked to do so by O'neill and Wollsey just because the think their self rightheus smart "people" that are always right.

[KaiLynn]

Janus was the only decent and sensible one of them. The rest were no good, pig headed *******s, with sticks stuck up to their pancreas.

Every one of them were annoying, point when the first living lanteans get to Atlantis do? Kick the guys who made it run and saved it for the past 3-4 years and get their buts kicked and head jabed because they wouldn't take their merry time to raise the shield and specifically asked to do so by O'neill and Wollsey just because the think their self rightheus smart "people" that are always right.

I think you don't understood their situation. They lost a home thousands years ago, get stranded, hoping to come back and the last thing they would imagine is an alien sitting in theirs chair, looking into your own projects. They were most polite. Good knows, I wouldn't be so gently ;]

Imagine someone get your living room in time of war. Your future children heard from your children, that their home is somewhere ... there. THey find it and they see, someone used the house for his accompaniament.

,you get the picture now? It's easy to judge someone by his actions without fully understanding his motives.

[lordofseas]

Janus was the only decent and sensible one of them. The rest were no good, pig headed *******s, with sticks stuck up to their pancreas.

Every one of them were annoying, point when the first living lanteans get to Atlantis do? Kick the guys who made it run and saved it for the past 3-4 years and get their buts kicked and head jabed because they wouldn't take their merry time to raise the shield and specifically asked to do so by O'neill and Wollsey just because the think their self rightheus smart "people" that are always right.

Merlin and Morgan Le Fay were Lantians. Of course, they were up to no good, either. We should have given them the Marauder's Map of Atlantis. As was the Ancient captain. He didn't save anyone's life while destroying a Hive ship. No no no, Janus was the only good Ancient. Of course. It's not like it wasn't their home, and that their ancestors built it. No, it was wrong for the Ancients to even think of having to adapt to the situation. And of course, the Ancients didn't have a good reason for not raising the shield. How stupid could the smartest race of four galaxies be? And, obviously, they had no right to kick someone out of their home. They should have been ashamed of themselves. After all, we, their children, should get what they had. They just left it there. Helia never said that in time, they would allow them back. BOO ANCIENTS!

[mirdin1992]

OK kicking the out I understand but not raising the shield just because you think for the past 10.000 years the asurans didn't change is a sign of the arrogance and deserved what they got.I just don't like their 'I'm right attitude and you children don't know anything and should listen to the grown ups' and leets see where that gotten them....oh... dead...D.E.A.D! and the ascended ones aren't much better then them, with a few exceptions.

[Serenity000]

Merlin and Morgan Le Fay were Lantians. Of course, they were up to no good, either. We should have given them the Marauder's Map of Atlantis. As was the Ancient captain. He didn't save anyone's life while destroying a Hive ship. No no no, Janus was the only good Ancient. Of course. It's not like it wasn't their home, and that their ancestors built it. No, it was wrong for the Ancients to even think of having to adapt to the situation. And of course, the Ancients didn't have a good reason for not raising the shield. How stupid could the smartest race of four galaxies be? And, obviously, they had no right to kick someone out of their home. They should have been ashamed of themselves. After all, we, their children, should get what they had. They just left it there. Helia never said that in time, they would allow them back. BOO ANCIENTS!

Well Merlin(known as Moros on Atlantis) was on the council(the old guy with the beard) that got mad at Janus. So Merlin, and later Morgan lafay, weren't 'good' until they saw the bigger picture(which is after they ascended)

[KaiLynn]

Well Merlin(known as Moros on Atlantis) was on the council(the old guy with the beard) that got mad at Janus. So Merlin, and later Morgan lafay, weren't 'good' until they saw the bigger picture(which is after they ascended)

Ps. My parents aren't good, but they protect me. If you don't agree with Ancients you can make your own project like Janus did. And I think since Lantians communicate mentally, it is hard to hold thoughts inside your mind, so controlling it needs attention. THat's why they are so cold, just like Spock from Vulcan

[lordofseas]

OK kicking the out I understand but not raising the shield just because you think for the past 10.000 years the asurans didn't change is a sign of the arrogance and deserved what they got.I just don't like their 'I'm right attitude and you children don't know anything and should listen to the grown ups' and leets see where that gotten them....oh... dead...D.E.A.D! and the ascended ones aren't much better then them, with a few exceptions.

They had no reason to believe that they had changed. If you left your house for work, and it burnt down while you were gone, and no one told you, when you were driving back, wouldn't you think it would be still the way you left it until you laid eyes on it?

Well Merlin(known as Moros on Atlantis) was on the council(the old guy with the beard) that got mad at Janus. So Merlin, and later Morgan lafay, weren't 'good' until they saw the bigger picture(which is after they ascended)

It seems that we have two different definitions of good. I say good, and I mean moral people, that do the right thing. When you say good, I gain the impression that you mean someone that helps Earthlings. The Council had every right to get angry at Janus. He said he wouldn't do unsanctioned experiments, then went ahead and did them anyways. He was caught.

[mirdin1992]

They had no reason to believe that they had changed. If you left your house for work, and it burnt down while you were gone, and no one told you, when you were driving back, wouldn't you think it would be still the way you left it until you laid eyes on it?

You are forgetting they were gone for 10.000 years and your analogy doensn't work because they weren't going around the corner and
a lot can happen in 10.000 years.

It seems that we have two different definitions of good. I say good, and I mean moral people, that do the right thing. When you say good, I gain the impression that you mean someone that helps Earthlings. The Council had every right to get angry at Janus. He said he wouldn't do unsanctioned experiments, then went ahead and did them anyways. He was caught.

No MY definition of good and 'not stupid' are those people that take at least the minimum required safety precautions to save themselfs and not necesarilly go against their morals.

And what do I see. People that wouldn't lift a finger and press a button to raise a shield for the situation because they think they right, well Murphy got you suckers, people that wouldn't set a failsafe to save the city they love and cherish just because they think they will come back before that when having evidence to the contrary and people that would hold their non interference policy in the face of iminent destruction(Ori) and not help the 'mortals' just because a stupid rule even when the opposition is clearly cheating.

[KaiLynn]

OK kicking the out I understand but not raising the shield just because you think for the past 10.000 years the asurans didn't change is a sign of the arrogance and deserved what they got.I just don't like their 'I'm right attitude and you children don't know anything and should listen to the grown ups' and leets see where that gotten them....oh... dead...D.E.A.D! and the ascended ones aren't much better then them, with a few exceptions.

If you were watching Star Trek some time ago, I could say: "most of the Ancients are the same as the Q Continuum with Q in front of it".

[KaiLynn]

You are forgetting they were gone for 10.000 years and your analogy doensn't work because they weren't going around the corner and
a lot can happen in 10.000 years.



No MY definition of good and 'not stupid' are those people that take at least the minimum required safety precautions to save themselfs and not necesarilly go against their morals.

And what do I see. People that wouldn't lift a finger and press a button to raise a shield for the situation because they think they right, well Murphy got you suckers, people that wouldn't set a failsafe to save the city they love and cherish just because they think they will come back before that when having evidence to the contrary and people that would hold their non interference policy in the face of iminent destruction(Ori) and not help the 'mortals' just because a stupid rule even when the opposition is clearly cheating.

I could agree with that, expecially the part with "pressing buttons". As we saw in "Before I sleep" only Janus was creative enough to predict the outcome in the near future thanks to Weir. If she wouldn't back in time to meet them, the gate would have been open for every visitor, so that any could make Atlantis his home and scream: "let's get the party started"

[sunrek]

My initial reaction to the title of this thread is: "Very well, thanks for asking."

And I think since Lantians communicate mentally, it is hard to hold thoughts inside your mind, so controlling it needs attention. THat's why they are so cold, just like Spock from Vulcan

It would be a good theory, except that we don't have any evidence of the Lantians being telepathic. The only mind-readers we have seen have been artificially advanced to the brink of ascension (Rodney in "Tao of Rodney" and Anubis' clone in "Progeny"). No flashbacks to Lantian times involves telepathic communication, and it's unlikely that the Lantians in "Before I Sleep" were even close to the level of evolution Rodney and Kahlek were at when they showed these powers because then the Lantians would have just had to meditate for a few days and ascend instead of fleeing back to Earth.


And while I agree they didn't really think it through with the shield in "Return," from the perspective of the Lantians the Asaurans were basically like toaster ovens. Yes, a toaster can burn you. But you don't consider it a threat because it's not designed to burn you, it's designed to burn bread (lightly). In fact, the Asaurans were even less of a threat to an Ancient because unlike toasters, they were not only not programed to harm the Lantians, they were in fact programed to NOT harm the Lantians. And if this is how they based their entire view of the Asaurans, they would not have believed the Asaurans would EVER attack them. So their overconfidence is understandable, but mostly because they were ignorant of the changed circumstances (Rodney's opening up their base code to alteration).

[KaiLynn]

My initial reaction to the title of this thread is: "Very well, thanks for asking."

It would be a good theory, except that we don't have any evidence of the Lantians being telepathic. The only mind-readers we have seen have been artificially advanced to the brink of ascension (Rodney in "Tao of Rodney" and Anubis' clone in "Progeny"). No flashbacks to Lantian times involves telepathic communication, and it's unlikely that the Lantians in "Before I Sleep" were even close to the level of evolution Rodney and Kahlek were at when they showed these powers because then the Lantians would have just had to meditate for a few days and ascend instead of fleeing back to Earth.

I cannot agree. The telepatic abilities wasn't just mentioned. It was showed to us 100% for sure, when Ancients came to Atlantis back from their FTL journey. Do you remember the part when after they cross the gate, the leader opens tiny device before the gate, the override? Yes. What about the pilot, when in the beginning you saw two Atlantians staring at each other without saying a word?

Further search for more. Anyway even those with ancienty gene steer devices like puddle jumper weaponry and other systems with thoughts. Even the chair is mentally (telepathic) controlled.

You have many evidence

... from the perspective of the Lantians the Asaurans were basically like toaster ovens. Yes, a toaster can burn you. But you don't consider it a threat because it's not designed to burn you, it's designed to burn bread (lightly). In fact, the Asaurans were even less of a threat to an Ancient because unlike toasters, they were not only not programed to harm the Lantians, they were in fact programed to NOT harm the Lantians.

I totally agree with your metaphor

If you agree I could mention something. I think Asurans weren't just bad experiment fo them. Not every Lantian thinks the same. But there is always a leader who must put hard decisions into life, even if this could have bad consequences. Then after all, lantians weren't so bad and the thrive to level Lantians just because they created us and tried to destroy us, and now we give them back isn't the way they should exist.

2nd. Why the hell they even tried it? The were machines by the time. They couldn't regret, love, cry or feel embarassed and thrive to revenge. It wasn't programmed into their code, so ... I don't know. 1 thing is sure, they don't have human emotions.

So McKay opened a backdoor to their code and they instantly changed it to destroy eveything what's lantian connected? Strange ...

[sunrek]

I cannot agree. The telepatic abilities wasn't just mentioned. It was showed to us 100% for sure, when Ancients came to Atlantis back from their FTL journey. Do you remember the part when after they cross the gate, the leader opens tiny device before the gate, the override? Yes. What about the pilot, when in the beginning you saw two Atlantians staring at each other without saying a word?

Further search for more. Anyway even those with ancienty gene steer devices like puddle jumper weaponry and other systems with thoughts. Even the chair is mentally (telepathic) controlled.

You have many evidence

A neural interface telepathy does not make. The chair and jumpers are mind-controlled, but it's not telepathy at work. It's the technology incorporated into the ancient equipment itself and not as a result of the user's telepathic abilities. Just take Shepherd: he has the strongest known ATA gene expression and interfaces most naturally with ancient technology, but he does not have the ability to communicate telepathically with anyone (except the ascended ancient he hooked up with, but that was her powers allowing that not him). Commander Helia's activation of the override console is just a further extension of this ability: it was the city reading her mind (due to her ATA gene expression) not her projecting her thoughts or reading someone else's mind.

What about the pilot, when in the beginning you saw two Atlantians staring at each other without saying a word?

So people shown in movies sharing a meaningful glance are always communicating telepathically? That is extreme speculation and there is nothing to base that on. It was a dramatic moment with no dialogue, but that is no reason to jump to the conclusion that ancients automatically can read each others' minds.

In fact, there is a ton of evidence showing that the ancients do NOT communicate telepathically. Whenever we see real-live, non-ascended ancients, they speak exclusively through speech. Consider "Before I Sleep." Clearly they are speaking out loud, because Weir can definitely hear everything they say, even when ancients are speaking amongst themselves and saying things they wouldn't want her to hear. Ancients are shown using audio communications. The logs of Janus' assistant in "The Lost Tribe" mention that he yelled out Janus' name to get his attention. The Asaurans, who try to emulate the Lantians in every way, speak vocally. And we know they have the capacity to communicate without words, but because they want to be like the ancients, they use their voices. When Shepard was in the Aroura's virtual reality, the ancients were speaking out loud. The ancient found in Antarctica had to be taught English through gestures and pointing, meaning she definitely couldn't read Jonas' mind to understand what he was saying.

I totally agree with your metaphor

Technically, it's an analogy

If you agree I could mention something. I think Asurans weren't just bad experiment fo them. Not every Lantian thinks the same. But there is always a leader who must put hard decisions into life, even if this could have bad consequences. Then after all, lantians weren't so bad and the thrive to level Lantians just because they created us and tried to destroy us, and now we give them back isn't the way they should exist.

2nd. Why the hell they even tried it? The were machines by the time. They couldn't regret, love, cry or feel embarassed and thrive to revenge. It wasn't programmed into their code, so ... I don't know. 1 thing is sure, they don't have human emotions.

So McKay opened a backdoor to their code and they instantly changed it to destroy eveything what's lantian connected? Strange ...

If you're saying in the first part that not all the Lantians thought the Asaurans were bad, what are you basing that on?

Second part: What makes you think the Asaurans couldn't feel emotions? They certainly appeared to. Even FRAn, a stripped-down version of an Asauran, felt excitement. And the human-form replicators (basically the grandchildren of the Asaurans) could fell emotion; that was the whole point of the Fifth character's return in Season 8 of SG1: revenge. Other machines in SG1 clearly show emotions. What about the android from the episode where SG1 gets turned into androids. And Urgo! One of the most emotional characters in the entire series:a machine.

As for them re-writing their code, they are sentient beings and therefore likely have the wish to improve themselves. That drive is clearly present in Niam's folks studying ascension: improving themselves. Oberoth's faction's attempt to improve themselves could have been to remove the limitations programmed into their code. The directive to not harm their creators could been one of thousands of things they changed to make themselves "better." And we know they already wanted to take back Atlantis, so when they tried the second time and the Ancients happened to be back, the fact they tampered with their code just happened to work in their favor.

[mirdin1992]

The ancient found in Antarctica had to be taught English through gestures and pointing, meaning she definitely couldn't read Jonas' mind to understand what he was saying.

I would argue that she knew everything they were saying without ever hearing english before and comprehended instantly , so mind reading to understand the new humans was easy, mind reading to copy a entire language harder. The only conclusion I can come from this is she can't access parts of memory that we don't think actively about and thinking 'words' isn't one of them.