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Commander Zelix
October 31st, 2009, 09:20 PM
It was great to see Tamara to finally see some action. One week ago she was quitting the army, now she's the leader on a lost ship.

But one thing that irk me was the atrocious decision made by TJ about keeping the presence of the desert alien secret. There was no point to it. Those people are Stargate personal so they all know about the existence of alien life form. They probably have been briefed about many of them encountered by the Stargate program, since you never know. She even could have tell the people it was the "friendly" desert alien who possibly helped Scott. Then tell the people that if they see those particles aliens, tell her and take no action.

There was no upside at all at her decision to not tell crew. If there is, I can't see any.

jelgate
October 31st, 2009, 09:24 PM
An alien enity that will kill you if provoked. If she told everyone that I can see anarachy occuring

s09119
October 31st, 2009, 09:25 PM
...you'd want to tell a bunch of sleep-deprived and frightened (and probably panicked by their impending loss of all drinkable water) civilians and soldiers that there is a possibly-hostile alien entity onboard the ship that has just killed a fully armed and armored soldier without any trouble at all?

...I'd say that would be the bad decision, personally.

Commander Zelix
October 31st, 2009, 09:30 PM
Those people are Stargate personal. They all know about alien. You just tell them the truth. That those are probably the friendly aliens from the desert planet. If somebody see them to tell her. By keeping it a secret, some people will see them then truly panick.

I know its easy to be an armchair critic, but at the very moment she made that decision I knew it was a bad one. There's just no upside to it. Not at all. Now we keep the alien presence on the Destiny ship secret. You think its how it should work. How dumb?

Replicator Todd
October 31st, 2009, 09:43 PM
Revealing the alien to everyone would cause alot of panic...I support TJ's decision.

Vapor
October 31st, 2009, 09:48 PM
A couple weeks ago, some crewmembers who thought they knew better than the people in charge walked through a Stargate and never came back, despite being notified of potential danger.

We can call that an isolated incident, but then Chloe and James both left their quarters after being told to stay there because of a situation aboard ship.

Think how many more people could do even more ridiculous things if they were told of strange aliens running around. Particularly after we saw how freaked Eli was, and how he needed to be shut up about it multiple times so people could solve the problem. Not to mention how vocally unhappy Franklin & Friends had been acting as of late.

They didn't need that kind of headache when they already had 2 issues (not including Spencer's idiocy) to deal with already.

Commander Zelix
October 31st, 2009, 09:49 PM
Revealing the alien to everyone would cause alot of panic...I support TJ's decision.
So from now on we keep secret the presence of alien on the ship? It just doesn't make sense. And those people wouldn't panic since they are Stargate personel. But could panic if they come face to face with one and weren't warned before. Bad decision. They should have been warned with the appropriate don't panic but tell us message.

Commander Zelix
October 31st, 2009, 09:52 PM
Think how many more people could do even more ridiculous things if they were told of strange aliens running around. Particularly after we saw how freaked Eli was, and how he needed to be shut up about it multiple times so people could solve the problem. Not to mention how vocally unhappy Franklin & Friends had been acting as of late.

Eli is the only person on the ship which didn't know alien even existed just a few days before. All the other are Stargate scientists and soldiers.

Vapor
October 31st, 2009, 09:59 PM
Eli is the only person on the ship which didn't know alien even existed just a few days before. All the other are Stargate scientists and soldiers.

You kind of just ignored all the evidence I just gave you of other people doing stupid things even though they were ordered not to, and notified of the risks involve, and paying with their health and/or lives.

It's not like these are perfect SG personnel with decades of in-field experience. Many of them didn't expect to even step through the gate at all, except in small bursts. This was a massive mind-frak, and we've been shown over and over again how some people in this crew fumble through tough situations.

Commander Zelix
October 31st, 2009, 10:06 PM
You kind of just ignored all the evidence I just gave you of other people doing stupid things even though they were ordered not to, and notified of the risks involve, and paying with their health and/or lives.

Still I think theres more chance of them panicking if they see a "friendly" aliens they didn't know about than if they were prevented beforehand. At least, if you see them you know what to do. Sure you can always disregard orders, but yeah that makes you stupid and not TJ's problem. TJ could say:"I told you they were inoffensive and to prevent me if you saw them. Now you're dead"

I can't fathom the idea that for now on the presence of aliens on the ship will be kept secret.

Brain_Child
October 31st, 2009, 11:41 PM
If Col. Young had said that there were aliens on board and explain the situation, I think the crew would behave appropriately

but if TJ were to do the same thing, after being in command for only several hours, I think that many people make a fuss out of it, trying to demand answers since they trust TJ less than they trust Young.

so to me, concealing the facts was the better decision

SaberBlade
October 31st, 2009, 11:52 PM
Keeping it a secret was the best thing. The last thing people need to know about is an alien going around the ship that has the potential to kill you. People would panic at the slightest unexplained noise or freak out at the whole being able to kill you thing.

When it came to Col. Young, it was definitely the best thing to do. He had two important things to worry about, keeping Scott alive and getting him back, plus the collection of ice and being able to bring it back too. He couldn't be expected to do save Scott, retrieve the Ice and do this without wanting to rush back to Destiny to deal with the potential danger these aliens pose.

PG15
November 1st, 2009, 12:28 AM
Bad Water? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badwater_Basin)

Jaden
November 1st, 2009, 12:41 AM
I fully support TJ's decision. If she told everyone, they would all be roaming the ship, curious and thats the last thing they need. She's a Lieutenant in the Air force. She knows the right thing to do. I would have done the same thing if i was TJ.

boxvic
November 1st, 2009, 01:07 AM
It is to create the dichotomy between the military and the civilians; and those in power and those not in power.

The show wouldn't be very much fun if they did everything democratically and solved every problem within a few minutes. So they have to create the two distinct classes: one in power which doesn't know its head from its tail, and one out of power which is treated like useless cargo.

That is what the show is actually about. It supposed to make you reexamine your ideals of society and/or reaffirm your ideals of society.

Commander Zelix
November 1st, 2009, 01:14 AM
I will say again that the pretension that people would panic is completely ridiculous. Those are Stargate professional people, soldiers and scientists. The danger was higher to have a panic if people meet the inoffensive desert alien inadvertently without being warned before. Its completely ridiculous to hide them from the people when the aliens are actually roaming around the ship.

By preventing the Stargate soldiers and scientists the aliens would have quickly been found (it was a struck of luck that Greer just happened to meet it) and the situation could have been contained faster.

Its exactly like not sounding the red alert at Stargate command (Cheyenne) when theres an alien intrusion. Ridiculous.

boxvic
November 1st, 2009, 01:18 AM
I will say again that the pretension that people would panic is completely ridiculous. Those are Stargate professional people, soldiers and scientists. The danger was higher to have a panic if people meet the inoffensive desert alien inadvertently without being warned before. Its completely ridiculous to hide them from the people when the aliens are actually roaming around the ship.

By preventing the Stargate soldiers and scientists the aliens would have quickly been found (it was a struck of luck that Greer just happened to meet it) and the situation could have been contained faster.

Its exactly like not sounding the red alert at Stargate command (Cheyenne) when theres an alien intrusion. Ridiculous.

I agree completely. See the guy who just randomly shot at the alien with no provocation and ended up dieing for it.

Though like I said above, it is done to create the difference classes that are supposed to make the show.

Lord Kira
November 1st, 2009, 01:26 AM
I agree with Commander Zelix. She could have told them the truth. They are SGC personnel and can handle the truth.

Not to mention the fact that more manpower is always a good thing.

Andificus
November 1st, 2009, 01:27 AM
It was great to see Tamara to finally see some action. One week ago she was quitting the army, now she's the leader on a lost ship.

But one thing that irk me was the atrocious decision made by TJ about keeping the presence of the desert alien secret. There was no point to it. Those people are Stargate personal so they all know about the existence of alien life form. They probably have been briefed about many of them encountered by the Stargate program, since you never know. She even could have tell the people it was the "friendly" desert alien who possibly helped Scott. Then tell the people that if they see those particles aliens, tell her and take no action.

There was no upside at all at her decision to not tell crew. If there is, I can't see any.

I have to disagree. What she did was right. With the people on board Destiny it would have led to unnecessary panic to tell them. That point was proven in the two morons that got caught talking earlier in the episode. The civilians on Destiny aren't exactly made of much.

Captain Obvious
November 1st, 2009, 01:34 AM
See the guy who just randomly shot at the alien with no provocation and ended up dieing for it.

Honestly, until they get a better feel for who on the crew has a good head about them they really cannot trust the entire crew with every scrap of information. Essentially the crew is going to become a trickle down information system, compartmentalized. I would bet big money they will be setting up a system in which everyone's "clearance" gets re-evaluated (the guy who got shot trying to go to another planet in Air Pt. 3 being on the bottom obv) and set up independent of military rank.

boxvic
November 1st, 2009, 01:00 AM
Honestly, until they get a better feel for who on the crew has a good head about them they really cannot trust the entire crew with every scrap of information. Essentially the crew is going to become a trickle down information system, compartmentalized. I would bet big money they will be setting up a system in which everyone's "clearance" gets re-evaluated (the guy who got shot trying to go to another planet in Air Pt. 3 being on the bottom obv) and set up independent of military rank.

But that removes everyone's right to know the issues regarding their own lives. Like I said in another thread, I would rather die knowing what I face than tentatively live for another day when someone else unrighteously made the decision that I didn't need to know.

Sule
November 1st, 2009, 01:26 AM
I think she made the right decision in not telling the crew about the alien. They got them off the Destiny in the end. But what about the water she wasted to get rid of them? Does anyone know how much water she used?

Sonicbluemustang
November 1st, 2009, 01:29 AM
She didnt make very many decs but I say again she should have been the first to inform Young on aliens.
Perhaps an alien alert system should be implemented. :)

Orion's Star
November 1st, 2009, 01:38 AM
But that removes everyone's right to know the issues regarding their own lives. Like I said in another thread, I would rather die knowing what I face than tentatively live for another day when someone else unrighteously made the decision that I didn't need to know.

Such an attitude completely ignores how the military and most other hierarchial systems work. The people in charge don't gather everyone around and explain every detail of every decision they make, even if those decisions could possibly mean people dying. That's just not how the real world operates.

Commander Zelix
November 1st, 2009, 01:41 AM
Such an attitude completely ignores how the military and most other hierarchial systems work. The people in charge don't gather everyone around and explain every detail of every decision they make, even if those decisions could possibly mean people dying. That's just not how the real world operates.
Its ridiculous. Its not a secret mission. Its exactly like not sounding the red alert at Stargate command (Cheyenne) when there's an alien intrusion.

Avenger
November 1st, 2009, 02:54 AM
But one thing that irk me was the atrocious decision made by TJ about keeping the presence of the desert alien secret. There was no point to it. Those people are Stargate personal so they all know about the existence of alien life form. They probably have been briefed about many of them encountered by the Stargate program, since you never know. She even could have tell the people it was the "friendly" desert alien who possibly helped Scott. Then tell the people that if they see those particles aliens, tell her and take no action.

There was no upside at all at her decision to not tell crew. If there is, I can't see any.

It had nothing to do with not wanting to tell everyone else about aliens. It had to do with keeping everyone calm and in their quarters for their own safety. Telling everyone what was going on wouldn't have helped the situation. It could have started a panic. After all, that was got the one guy attacked. And maybe more people would have tried to help, but more people out in the ship and at risk of encountering the things. Sometimes not giving all the information is for the better.

Phenom
November 1st, 2009, 04:03 AM
Bad call in my opinion. I am sure somewhere in the Art of War by Sun Tszu it states something about knowing your enemy. This fits firmly in that category. Every person who could come in contact with them must know how to handle them. This intelligence would save lives.

rlr149
November 1st, 2009, 04:39 AM
I will say again that the pretension that people would panic is completely ridiculous. Those are Stargate professional people, soldiers and scientists. The danger was higher to have a panic if people meet the inoffensive desert alien inadvertently without being warned before. Its completely ridiculous to hide them from the people when the aliens are actually roaming around the ship.

By preventing the Stargate soldiers and scientists the aliens would have quickly been found (it was a struck of luck that Greer just happened to meet it) and the situation could have been contained faster.

Its exactly like not sounding the red alert at Stargate command (Cheyenne) when theres an alien intrusion. Ridiculous.

the sgc does sound alerts........... but very rarely does general *whoever* get on the radio and tell everyone EXACTLY what is going on. if ever!!

your argument fails.

Jeff-B
November 1st, 2009, 05:16 AM
Being SG personnel, they are aware that there is alien life. Yes, there was an alert system at the SGC. However, most on the ship are scientists who in previous incarnations of the franchise tend to run and let the military types deal with the dangerous situations. Reference SG1's Prodigy, where the scientists wanted to explore the planet but Jack wouldn't let them because he and Teal'c had to evaluate the safety first. Drove the point home when the "lightning bugs" killed the scientist. After that the scientists didn't mind taking orders from Jack.

KEK
November 1st, 2009, 05:44 AM
I don't get this idea that Stargate personnel would react better than most either, how would knowing about aliens (in general) help them? We all know about lions and tigers, but it's a safe bet that if you announced to a group of people that one was loose where they are then they'd still panic.

Jeff-B
November 1st, 2009, 05:44 AM
We can call that an isolated incident, but then Chloe and James both left their quarters after being told to stay there because of a situation aboard ship.



James is military so she had every right to be outside her quarters. Besides the fact that with Young and Scott not on the ship, her rank puts her second only to TJ in the military command structure on the ship at that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a 2nd Lieutenant( James) outrank a Master Sergeant( Greer)?

talyn2k1
November 1st, 2009, 06:02 AM
I think TJ did the right thing.

It is important to remember that while all of the civilians are aware of alien life, knowing it exists is very different to knowing that there are aliens on your ship trying to steal all your water. The natural assumption to make is that they are hostile (especially after what happened to Gorman).
I honestly don't think some of them would've been able to handle it.

She did the right thing.

Encoder
November 1st, 2009, 06:10 AM
I'm pretty sure her decision was to prevent people inadvertantly coming in contact with it before they knew what they were dealing with.

SGC personel or not, telling them that they're trapped with an alien on board is gonna make anyone freak!

I think she did the right thing for the greater good. That's one of the down sides to command!

:sheppard:

s09119
November 1st, 2009, 06:59 AM
The leaders of Stargate Command and Atlantis have withheld information from the general population of the respective bases before, for the same reasons; highly-trained personnel or not, sometimes you need to take into account that human nature is just human nature, and people panic regardless of what their superiors tell them to do.

TaoFire
November 1st, 2009, 07:22 AM
Keep in mind just how Greer reacted. He went and built a crude flame thrower, and he's just one of the soldiers on board. Not to mention scientists. Would have been dangerous to tell them ''One of our dudes just got Space-rahnnad. Don't worry though.''

But meh, dunno. =]

jcoy
November 1st, 2009, 07:27 AM
I agree that she didn't need to tell Young the details of what was going on. He was on a dangerous planet and needed to focus on what he was doing. And maybe she didn't need to share the information with everyone on the ship (although I don't know why non-hostile alien bugs would freak out people who go to other planets for a living). But, there was no reason to keep the information from the people she had searching the ship.

Maybe Cpl Gorman wouldn't have fired on them if TJ had mentioned something about them.

Kaiphantom
November 1st, 2009, 07:43 AM
I don't know whether it would have gone badly or not had she told. Some people may have panicked and died, or maybe not. We can't say for sure.

I can say that TJ's decision was a military one. They are trained to say as little as possible, and just give the necessary details for the order.

However, this isn't a military ship. It's a tough situation and the lower ranks are already questioning whether the upper brass is telling them everything. They obviously think they are being lied to and kept out of the loop (hence going to Eli). That's a mutiny forming.

The only way to prevent that, is to be completely open and candid about what is going on. You don't build trust (which you need) by lying and holding secrets. So I can see this as something that comes back to bite them.

In that line of thought, I would have informed them what was going on. That the alien entity had encountered quite a few people, and only harmed one, but he may have provoked them by shooting at them. So everyone just needs to stay calm while they try their best to deal with the situation.

Commander Zelix
November 1st, 2009, 07:55 AM
In that line of thought, I would have informed them what was going on. That the alien entity had encountered quite a few people, and only harmed one, but he may have provoked them by shooting at them. So everyone just needs to stay calm while they try their best to deal with the situation.
I just want to make it clear that the alien attacked one of the crew member *after* TJs was aware of their presence and choose not to sound the red alert. The guy panicked because he was surprised, didn't know how to react and didn't know it was the "friendly" aliens from the desert planet.

Alder
November 1st, 2009, 07:58 AM
I agree that she didn't need to tell Young the details of what was going on. He was on a dangerous planet and needed to focus on what he was doing. And maybe she didn't need to share the information with everyone on the ship (although I don't know why non-hostile alien bugs would freak out people who go to other planets for a living). But, there was no reason to keep the information from the people she had searching the ship.

Maybe Cpl Gorman wouldn't have fired on them if TJ had mentioned something about them.
That wee bit there did bother me, it would seem logical to inform the other military personnel. However, I think - correct me if I'm not remembering properly - that the scene cut straight to Gorman after the discussion about whether to tell everyone about the alien, and I wondered if the information just wasn't out to all the men yet, or this had even been happening while the discussion was going on.

Kaiphantom
November 1st, 2009, 08:31 AM
I just want to make it clear that the alien attacked one of the crew member *after* TJs was aware of their presence and choose not to sound the red alert. The guy panicked because he was surprised, didn't know how to react and didn't know it was the "friendly" aliens from the desert planet.

That is true. Had she announced it then, that might have been one less death.

leanbarton
November 1st, 2009, 08:45 AM
Another side note: Did she just help turn an ice planet into a frozen desert planet because of the water (perhaps ice) hungry alien bug things.

IcarusAbides
November 1st, 2009, 09:02 AM
Another side note: Did she just help turn an ice planet into a frozen desert planet because of the water (perhaps ice) hungry alien bug things.
Yeah, seems as they feed off water and multiply very quickly, surely they would consume most of the ice on the planet eventually.

Cory Holmes
November 1st, 2009, 09:16 AM
Yeah, seems as they feed off water and multiply very quickly, surely they would consume most of the ice on the planet eventually.
Interesting theory, but remember that much of the snow and ice had high concentrations of ammonia, while the dustbugs were only shown going after pure water on the ship itself.

boxvic
November 1st, 2009, 12:34 PM
Such an attitude completely ignores how the military and most other hierarchial systems work. The people in charge don't gather everyone around and explain every detail of every decision they make, even if those decisions could possibly mean people dying. That's just not how the real world operates.

And so that is how liberty dies? In silence for the sake of order?

That is why in the real world, democratically elected governments aren't run by the military and are answerable to the people. Do they still withhold information? Yes, but they shouldn't, and it causes lots of problems when people find out.

This ship is not a military installation, and this is no longer a military operation. The military just assumed they were in command, but why? Why should the non-military personnel be subjugated to a command structure that they did not install.

rlr149
November 1st, 2009, 01:12 PM
And so that is how liberty dies? In silence for the sake of order?

That is why in the real world, democratically elected governments aren't run by the military and are answerable to the people. Do they still withhold information? Yes, but they shouldn't, and it causes lots of problems when people find out.

This ship is not a military installation, and this is no longer a military operation. The military just assumed they were in command, but why? Why should the non-military personnel be subjugated to a command structure that they did not install.

fine!! anybody unhappy with the guys with the guns being in charge can get off at the next stargate.

Orion's Star
November 1st, 2009, 01:52 PM
And so that is how liberty dies? In silence for the sake of order?

That is why in the real world, democratically elected governments aren't run by the military and are answerable to the people. Do they still withhold information? Yes, but they shouldn't, and it causes lots of problems when people find out.

This ship is not a military installation, and this is no longer a military operation. The military just assumed they were in command, but why? Why should the non-military personnel be subjugated to a command structure that they did not install.

"Democracy encourages the majority to decide things about which the majority is ignorant." - John Simon

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part in the show where they declared that it was no longer a military operation. I also must have missed the part where it was said Young was not in command of Icarus base, but some civilian was his direct superior on site. I also must have missed where it was said that the civilian contractors weren't working for the government and so weren't subject to the government's representative's directives. And I definitely must have missed where the civilians got a chance to vote on who their boss should be.

Please explain to me how things would be all that different if Wray or Rush were in charge. Rush would care even less about civilian input than Young does. Wray was the one who wanted Young to be the sole arbiter on who goes on the shuttle in "Light" instead of the most fair process possible that Young used. It was Rush's advice in the first place to keep the presence of the aliens a secret. So far I'm not seeing much of a better alternative with the civilians making the decisions.

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 01:58 PM
I agree with TJ's decision.

panic the civvies??? 'oh, by the way, we THINK we have little alien bugs on board, and we dont' know if they're friendly or not, but please stay in your quarters ok????

yeah, it's like the tornado sirens going off and half the people in town get on thier front porch to take a gander at the twister...instead of people seeking shelter and getting out of the way, they'd have had a bunch of 'heros' searching for said alien bugs

and Gorman???? someone that practically deserved to get killed. Surely, in SGC 101, they mentioned that it might not be a good idea to shoot at the little bug like aliens, thus antagonizing them into a killing frenzy. What kind of sense told him that bullets would be able to hit ANY of those bugs anyway?

Kaiphantom
November 1st, 2009, 02:24 PM
I must say, the governing debate here is fantasy. Mankind has grappled with many different forms of governance for a long time. In order to work together, some kind of hierarchy and decision-making progress is needed.

Of course, the Destiny situation is far outside the lines of normal, so there are other considerations. Considering the delicate survival situation, a more militaristic situation is needed to enforce rationing and fairness. However, if they don't involve the people, then the people will become disenfranchised.

200 years ago, the people in the colonies got disenfranchised, and kicked the British out. So the military needs to keep them in the loop as sort of a military/democracy hybrid.

Even though this really isn't the thread for it, a lot of the current governments are doing very at screwing the populace, if not more so. 800 billion was recently stolen from the people by big businesses. Most countries are mostly ruled by these economic oligarchies now. And yet, not many protest; or at least are willing to fight to get their governments back. Mostly because they've become very good at distracting the populace with reality TV and fast food. Keep them fat and relatively happy.

Thomas Jefferson once said, "The tree of liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time, by the blood of tyrants and patriots."

Which makes the situation on board the Destiny seem a bit trivial in comparison. :P

DoThKi
November 1st, 2009, 03:16 PM
It was a good call by TJ. I'm not sure of her character's reasoning but to me it is clear that there is no discipline on Destiny except for TJ who IMO has acted professionally from the beginning. All that ill discipline combined with a hostile alien aboard would have just caused chaos among the armed military personnel.

IcarusAbides
November 1st, 2009, 05:01 PM
Interesting theory, but remember that much of the snow and ice had high concentrations of ammonia, while the dustbugs were only shown going after pure water on the ship itself.
There is only pure water on the ship mind.

prion
November 1st, 2009, 05:30 PM
It was a good call by TJ. I'm not sure of her character's reasoning but to me it is clear that there is no discipline on Destiny except for TJ who IMO has acted professionally from the beginning. All that ill discipline combined with a hostile alien aboard would have just caused chaos among the armed military personnel.

The scene reminded me of "Message in a bottle" when they tossed the aliens through the wormhole....

A glass of water in an airlock would have gotten the same results. If they'd opened the airlock and consigned them to deep space.

Pandora's_Box
November 1st, 2009, 07:37 PM
It was the right decision. Stargate Program personnel or not, knowing about aliens is entirely different from meeting an alien especially a none humanoid one.

Given that these people were also in extremely stressful conditions and at least one of them had exhibited rash and inappropriate behaviour, the best decision would have been one where people were kept as calm as possible...and as far away from the aliens as possible.

Look at it this way. The alien didn't do anything especially threatening before that soldier decided to start shooting. Would it have made a difference if he'd known that these were suspected to be the same aliens that a delirious Scott saw on the desert planet? Considering all the ifs and maybes involved and the fact that all of the stranded people are uneasy to begin with, I doubt it. And the fact that this alien (while not hostile) was responsible for their rapidly diminishing water supply would have engendered exactly no compassion amongst the human crew members.

It's human psychology; when scared and stressed people resort to base instincts and base instincts dictate "kill or be killed." It's often just that simple.

Commander Zelix
November 1st, 2009, 08:04 PM
I just want to say that I think the writers intented to make her decision slightly controversial. After she took the decision. Rush said to her something like: "So, you're not going to tell them?". Then she says something and he dismissively respond something like: "Well, you're the boss". And she respond that she only want his advice. If the writers didn't want to make her decision slightly controversial, they wouldn't have Rush questioning her decision to not tell the crew. And lucky enough, one crew member just dies a little bit after her controversial decision, surprised by the friendly alien.

Cory Holmes
November 1st, 2009, 09:00 PM
A glass of water in an airlock would have gotten the same results. If they'd opened the airlock and consigned them to deep space.

They thought about that, but Rush pointed out there were no airlocks in any of the pressurized areas of the ship: ie, they had no access to one.

Avenger
November 1st, 2009, 11:27 PM
I just want to make it clear that the alien attacked one of the crew member *after* TJs was aware of their presence and choose not to sound the red alert. The guy panicked because he was surprised, didn't know how to react and didn't know it was the "friendly" aliens from the desert planet.

He was military, for starters. At the time he was attacked, they didn't know that it was capable of attacking anyone. They just knew that it was there and that it was consuming a lot of water.

Skydiver
November 2nd, 2009, 05:10 AM
yeah, but you can't trust anything Rush says. he was probably thinking, if Scott and Young don't come back, that he has ammunition to use against TJ to 'discredit' her, because, personally, i think his ultimate goal is to be on command of that ship.

Cory Holmes
November 2nd, 2009, 05:32 AM
personally, i think his ultimate goal is to be on command of that ship.
Since that was his first statement after gating to Destiny, I think that's a safe bet ;) Once he has command, he can order people to stay onboard the ship and not look for other "habitable" planets to put roots down on. More than anything else, his need to be on Destiny is nigh-pathological.

Skydiver
November 2nd, 2009, 07:56 AM
or not 'order' people as much as manipulate the situation so that they never know there are planets

he is obsessed with the ship and staying on it, and i'm sure it'll be a plot point eventually

BrianD
November 2nd, 2009, 01:02 PM
This is the problem with the current government as is. They think only a select few can handle the truth and that's not the case. While I think there are some that can't handle it regardless I think the majority would be just fine.

As far as the alien life form on the ice planet I'm not sure how well they'd do since we don't know much about them. I would think an alien so dependent on water would freeze in such harsh conditions.

Lord Hurin
November 2nd, 2009, 01:19 PM
I think it was a good call. Like others have said, people would tend to get crazy if they'd known the truth.

Gorman was probably informed about the nature of the situation, being part of the military contingent assigned to protect the water and all. He was just scared and confused at the sight of a life form unlike anything he'd probably ever seen.

Mitchell82
November 2nd, 2009, 04:27 PM
It was great to see Tamara to finally see some action. One week ago she was quitting the army, now she's the leader on a lost ship.

But one thing that irk me was the atrocious decision made by TJ about keeping the presence of the desert alien secret. There was no point to it. Those people are Stargate personal so they all know about the existence of alien life form. They probably have been briefed about many of them encountered by the Stargate program, since you never know. She even could have tell the people it was the "friendly" desert alien who possibly helped Scott. Then tell the people that if they see those particles aliens, tell her and take no action.

There was no upside at all at her decision to not tell crew. If there is, I can't see any.

To Quote Col Young "These are the wrong people." They may be Stargate Personell but most of them are fresh newbies who have barely seen any offworld action and many are scientists and civilians. These people are in a very bad situation where panic is a norm. Telling would have been the bad decision. I support her decision.

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 10:24 AM
heck, look at how the scientists acted in prodigy. THey knew there was something odd and they still went out and ignored jack's orders...and got dead :)

telling them there were little bugs on teh ship wouldn't have done anything but panic them.

Commander Zelix
November 3rd, 2009, 10:55 AM
heck, look at how the scientists acted in prodigy. THey knew there was something odd and they still went out and ignored jack's orders...and got dead :)

telling them there were little bugs on teh ship wouldn't have done anything but panic them.
Still I don't think anybody would have done something crazy knowing it was probably the "friendly" aliens Scott met on the Desert planet and met just before by Tamara. Instead of panicking when they actually saw one, without knowing anything about it, they would have called TJ to tell them they just saw one. I think people would just be cautious knowing the appropriate info. The real panic happens when you see them, but wasn't warned before.

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 11:22 AM
Still I don't think anybody would have done something crazy knowing it was probably the "friendly" aliens Scott met on the Desert planet and met just before by Tamara. Instead of panicking when they actually saw one, without knowing anything about it, they would have called TJ to tell them they just saw one. I think people would just be cautious knowing the appropriate info. The real panic happens when you see them, but wasn't warned before.

They weren't THAT friendly if they killed Gorman. I'm not sure anything they did constituted "friendly." I think it was more of a coincidence that they led Scott to the water in Air pt. 3

Commander Zelix
November 3rd, 2009, 11:40 AM
They weren't THAT friendly if they killed Gorman. I'm not sure anything they did constituted "friendly." I think it was more of a coincidence that they led Scott to the water in Air pt. 3
Tell me how friendly you stay if somebody start shooting at you. And somehow, I understand the soldier, he didn't take no chance and tried to kill it (in a stupid way). He didn't know that those aliens helped Scott before and were peaceful toward TJ. Knowing that beforehand he wouldn't have considered them a strong threat.

In the episode they discuss how these are the same aliens which helped Scott. Eli says to Rush something like:"You said he was delusional" Rush respond something like:"Then I was wrong".

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 11:50 AM
In the episode they discuss how these are the same aliens which helped Scott. Eli says to Rush something like:"You said he was delusional" Rush respond something like:"Then I was wrong".

I still don't think that they were being intergalactic "good samaritans." They likely needed Scott's weight to break through the layer of lime covering the lake so that they could get to the water. This also happened to help Scott.

They probably followed him through the gate because they knew he had water, and figured they could get more by following him to where he got his from.

Basically they were being malevolent, not helpful, in my mind.

As for Gorman, do we actually know that he wasn't told what they were? I think if TJ declined to inform those who were still outside their quarters, guarding the water then yeah, she made a bad decision as far as that goes. Not as far as confining all the scientists to quarters goes though. I mean look at Franklin: "dude, there's a reason they didn't let us dial up that address. it's probably hazardous to human life. you'll most likely die if you go through" and he tried anyway. Even worse, he was so selfish that he was going to STRAND everyone else on the desert planet. Common sense doesn't seem like these peoples' strongest asset.

Captain Obvious
November 3rd, 2009, 12:42 PM
I still don't think that they were being intergalactic "good samaritans." They likely needed Scott's weight to break through the layer of lime covering the lake so that they could get to the water. This also happened to help Scott.

They probably followed him through the gate because they knew he had water, and figured they could get more by following him to where he got his from.

Basically they were being malevolent, not helpful, in my mind.


I think the word you were looking for was more symbiotic than malevolent. The beings were more than willing to help Scott, and wanted more of the water he kept pouring into the sand. The little dirt devils thought they had a friend, they helped him find his limestone, they showed him some water. Simple barter system. They have shown they are capable of communication, however crude. This leads me to believe they are intelligent. Once they realized the error of their actions and that the people on board did not want them, they chose not to kill Greer with his flamethrower and allowed themselves to be herded. They trusted TJ when she was the one they saw when the door opened. We could possibly assume that they recognized the rank insignia that was worn by their friend Scott on TJ and that is why they tried to communicate with her initially.

But they did the right thing by not telling the rest of the crew about the Dust Devils. The average crew member has thus far proven themselves unreliable in tough situations with their mob mentality. There is a reason there is a "need to know" policy on the ship at the moment.

Rachel500
November 4th, 2009, 02:54 AM
I agree with TJ's decision and would have done the same. As someone says in MIB, individuals are smart, people are stupid.

We really don't know how versed the Destiny crew is in offworld travel and encounters with aliens. It's likely that for many they had a trip of a ship to Icarus and that was it; they spent their entire offworld career to date in the comfy confines of a base not a million times different from Earth. Some may have been able to have acted with calm but more likely some probably would have panicked as Eli did, and if you're dealing with a situation you really don't need panicking people to deal with on top of that - especially given the tension that already exists because of the water situation.

I believe TJ acted in the best interests of the crew overall.

Did her decision to lead to Gorman's death? It's uncertain whether Gorman was aware. Maybe, maybe not - certainly the military personnel in the gateroom when they're offloading the ice are and that seems to take place soon after the attack (Gorman is radioed to return to the gateroom to unload the ice). However given the attack happens we could surmise they were only made aware after Gorman's attack.

Even if we assume he wasn't aware, perhaps if Gorman had been made aware he would have stopped and just reported it in. But maybe he would still have attempted to shoot at it - we can't know for certain. So I don't think it's clear cut enough to lay the blame for his death at TJ's feet.

Skydiver
November 4th, 2009, 05:00 AM
i think the simple fact that gorman's first response was to shoot it speaks to his lack of off world experience.

then again, there was the case like in First Ones, where Colonel Edwards (graduate of the George Armstrong Custer school of military strategy) trashed the unas burial ground, thus angering thus Unas' and leading to the deaths of many.

At the end of the day, Gorman was stupid because the script told him to be stupid so there'd be an element of threat and danger as Tj worked to get the bugs off the ship

Avenger
November 4th, 2009, 02:47 PM
Still I don't think anybody would have done something crazy knowing it was probably the "friendly" aliens Scott met on the Desert planet and met just before by Tamara. Instead of panicking when they actually saw one, without knowing anything about it, they would have called TJ to tell them they just saw one. I think people would just be cautious knowing the appropriate info. The real panic happens when you see them, but wasn't warned before.

They were friendly to Scott because he gave them water.

Everything else you're saying is pure assumption. Gorman didn't call in an report what he saw to TJ. He started shooting at it and provoked it. What if the thing reacted to a group of people like a cornered animal and attacked? Keeping everyone isolated provided the greatest means to keep the greatest number of people safe and alive.

Mitchell82
November 5th, 2009, 01:41 PM
They weren't THAT friendly if they killed Gorman. I'm not sure anything they did constituted "friendly." I think it was more of a coincidence that they led Scott to the water in Air pt. 3

They weren't friendly for the same reason the glow bugs werent in Prodigy. In Prodigy they reacted to the capture of one of their own, in Water they were friendly untill Gorman fired at them.

Linda06
November 5th, 2009, 01:47 PM
I also agree with TJ's decision. She made the call and IMO it was the right one. The last thing they needed was panicked people running around the ship antagonising the alien bugs further. They needed to contain it and they did.

Mitchell82
November 5th, 2009, 01:53 PM
I also agree with TJ's decision. She made the call and IMO it was the right one. The last thing they needed was panicked people running around the ship antagonising the alien bugs further. They needed to contain it and they did.

Uh oh. The world must be ending I agree with Linda!:eek:
Just curious are you liking this show despite your reservations/ concerns?

Linda06
November 5th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Uh oh. The world must be ending I agree with Linda!:eek:
Just curious are you liking this show despite your reservations/ concerns?

:eek: WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED :eek:

Too much? :p

Well yes, I am actually quite enjoying the show so far :o I've liked every ep, Darkness was okay but every other ep has been good. Especially Light and Water :o

What is with these names :eek:

Air
Darkness
Light
Water

So what's next? :p

Mitchell82
November 5th, 2009, 02:00 PM
:eek: WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED :eek:
:lol:


Too much? :p
Not for you sweety.


Well yes, I am actually quite enjoying the show so far :o I've liked every ep, Darkness was okay but every other ep has been good. Especially Light and Water :o
Agreed. I to liked Darrkness but there were a few slow points.


What is with these names :eek:

Air
Darkness
Light
Water

So what's next? :p
Episode 21: Latrine:cool:;)

Linda06
November 5th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Agreed. I to liked Darrkness but there were a few slow points.

Yeah it kinda slowed down too much in the ep but it was still enjoyable enough.


Episode 21: Latrine:cool:;)

:eek: *facepalm* I had to ask :p

I wasn't really sure what TJ would bring to the show after seeing her in the first couple of eps but from what I've seen in the last few, especially in Water she seems to be quite capable. She has proven in this ep that she isn't afraid to make the difficult calls and she takes no crap from nobody :p Not even Greer ;)

Mitchell82
November 5th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Yeah it kinda slowed down too much in the ep but it was still enjoyable enough.
Agreed.




:eek: *facepalm* I had to ask :p
Haven't learned yet eh?:cameron:


I wasn't really sure what TJ would bring to the show after seeing her in the first couple of eps but from what I've seen in the last few, especially in Water she seems to be quite capable. She has proven in this ep that she isn't afraid to make the difficult calls and she takes no crap from nobody :p Not even Greer ;)
She defintely has grown as a character from a naive out of her element medic to a very capable soldier and doctor.

Linda06
November 5th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Haven't learned yet eh?:cameron:

pfft, oh you know me. A glutton for punishment :p



She defintely has grown as a character from a naive out of her element medic to a very capable soldier and doctor.

We've never had a shortage of strong women on Stargate and I think TJ could be another one :)

Mitchell82
November 5th, 2009, 02:28 PM
pfft, oh you know me. A glutton for punishment :p
:lol:





We've never had a shortage of strong women on Stargate and I think TJ could be another one :)
Defintely. Maybe it'd be more fun if she slugs Telford. I always loved women who stand up for themself. I never get tired of watching carter slug Ba'al.

Linda06
November 5th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Defintely. Maybe it'd be more fun if she slugs Telford. I always loved women who stand up for themself. I never get tired of watching carter slug Ba'al.

Oh that was classic..GO CARTER :D Somehow I can't see anybody walking all over TJ ;)

Hibblette
December 5th, 2009, 06:03 PM
I have a question about rank-according to GateWorld about TJ's Key Ep very first ep description:

Air, Part 1 - With the Icarus chief medical officer dead, Sergeant Tamara Johansen arrives aboard the Destiny with limited supplies and unrelenting crises.

Ok-if she's a Sergeant why was she put in charge?

Is that a screwup?

Actually aren't Medics usually non comm's?

So why wasn't Lieutenant James put in charge?

jelgate
December 5th, 2009, 06:07 PM
I believe at one point TJ was a Sgt. but during pre-production the writers decidied to change that rank

Hibblette
December 5th, 2009, 06:36 PM
According to the official site she is a 1st Lieutenant.

I'm really not sure about this though because I think this actually makes her more then just a medic.

I suppose she was training under the doctor ... I don't know, it really doesn't jive I don't think.

But Gateworld has it wrong.