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Descended
October 31st, 2009, 10:52 AM
Anyone else think it was a little odd that he got off with a proverbial slap on the wrist? If I was commanding a situation like that, stealing water and food would be call for summary execution.

Hell, in most martial law situations looting and stealing are met with deadly force, yet he got yelled at and locked up for all of 6 hours. Coupled with the fact that he already had to be dealt with during the shuttle incident, and Young is showing VERY poor leadership keeping him around.

He may have mental illness issues (we saw him taking medication, which is going to suck when he runs out) but he is still a soldier and should be held to higher standards in this situation.

We can all see the mutiny or murders coming, so why can't Young?

reddevil18
October 31st, 2009, 10:58 AM
Well, shooting one of your men might instigate some of the others to rebel, more than anything else.
Maybe reduced rations for a while and confinement to quarters for a few weeks, but that's it.

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 11:04 AM
Well, shooting one of your men might instigate some of the others to rebel, more than anything else.
Maybe reduced rations for a while and confinement to quarters for a few weeks, but that's it.

Actually, it wouldn't, if anything has been learned about desperate situations, it is the need to maintain discipline. There is a reason why all militaries (including our own) utilize execution as a threat in the face of disobedience and mutiny in a wartime situation. Knowing you will be shot if you steal food will definitely make you think twice about it.

KEK
October 31st, 2009, 11:05 AM
He's a bad leader because he won't murder one of his men for stealing food? Yeah, that's reasonable :rolleyes:

Jeff-B
October 31st, 2009, 11:06 AM
First, he was busted by Greer, who

we've already seen pocketing some of the Powerbars in Air

Second, even though they could be considered to be currently under martial law, they seem to be attempting to move toward a more fair power structure. If Spencer would have been summarily executed, that would make tensions rise off the charts and make a mutiny almost a sure thing.

Granted, Spencer is not a main character, yet he's a little more than a redshirt. I think Young or Scott should take him on a future offship mission, maybe we could learn more about his apparent psychological problems.

Detox
October 31st, 2009, 11:07 AM
Since when did the US army start shooting soldiers for stealing things?

Seriously? Do you even think before you type?

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 11:07 AM
First, he was busted by Greer, who

we've already seen pocketing some of the Powerbars in Air

Second, even though they could be considered to be currently under martial law, they seem to be attempting to move toward a more fair power structure. If Spencer would have been summarily executed, that would make tensions rise off the charts and make a mutiny almost a sure thing.

How can there be a fair power structure on a military expedition? Are they going to setup a democracy? I can't see Young giving up authority any time soon.

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 11:09 AM
Since when did the US army start shooting soldiers for stealing things?

Seriously? Do you even think before you type?

Martial law situations allow for the use of summary execution as a punishment to preserve order. It is not prohibited under the Geneva convention when used in such a manner.

KEK
October 31st, 2009, 11:10 AM
Martial law situations allow for the use of summary execution as a punishment to preserve order. It is not prohibited under the Geneva convention when used in such a manner.

They're not in a martial law situation.

reddevil18
October 31st, 2009, 11:11 AM
This isn't a typical military expedition. Most there are actually civilian. If you don't want a mutiny on your hand, you don't go around shooting people simply because they've hidden away some food and water.

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 11:17 AM
This isn't a typical military expedition. Most there are actually civilian. If you don't want a mutiny on your hand, you don't go around shooting people simply because they've hidden away some food and water.

Simply? In such a situation when everything is being rationed harshly that was a major crime. This isn't hiding a dinner roll or something. He had enough food there to keep several people alive for a long time.

Orion Antreas
October 31st, 2009, 11:35 AM
Young needs all the people he can get. This unplanned expedition is on there own and the more people you have could and will make the difference. Also, like others have said, Young doesn't want to create the thought of 'rebellion' in other people's minds.

It's a tough position for Young and we can see that it is getting to him.

jcoy
October 31st, 2009, 11:36 AM
Martial law situations allow for the use of summary execution as a punishment to preserve order. It is not prohibited under the Geneva convention when used in such a manner.

Martial law (which this isn't) still requires a trial before punishment. Yes you can shoot looters to stop them, but not to punish them.

The Geneva convention applies to enemy combatants, not your own troops. And if it did apply it forbids execution of prisoners.

I agree Spencer should have been kept in detention longer, but Young doesn't have the authority to execute people. That would require a court martial. Young can take limited amounts of rank, pay and freedom.

reddevil18
October 31st, 2009, 11:39 AM
Simply? In such a situation when everything is being rationed harshly that was a major crime. This isn't hiding a dinner roll or something. He had enough food there to keep several people alive for a long time.
Yeah...Okay...Whatever you say...:rolleyes:

Jeff-B
October 31st, 2009, 11:40 AM
How can there be a fair power structure on a military expedition? Are they going to setup a democracy? I can't see Young giving up authority any time soon.

I may have mistyped something, but this was intended to be a scientific and military expedition. The power structure on Atlantis wasn't exactly a democracy, yet it managed to be pretty fair.

Even when threatened with imminent death and destruction, Weir still had many misgivings about sending Ronon in to question Kavanaugh.

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 11:52 AM
A court-martial could be possible using the communication stones, but regardless of the punishment, don't you think they are being a little short-sighted regarding Spencer. Young already has Eli spying on everyone with the Kino's (i.e. I have to know who I can trust) but he barely punishes the man who has been directly insubordinate twice (disobeying orders regarding the shuttle evacuation (and on the verge of inciting mutiny), and hoarding/stealing food)

But at the end of Water we see him release Spencer with a vague warning and no further ramifications.

Kinda funny that no one thought anything about Greer shooting the scientist in Air part 3 because he was endangering the lives of the team, but Spencer stealing food and water from everyone gets a pass and shocked outrage about dealing with him harshly.

escyos
October 31st, 2009, 11:56 AM
sure get rid of a soldier, they might need him later on.

jcoy
October 31st, 2009, 12:03 PM
I agree that Spencer needs to be kept on a short leash.

Greer shot Franklin (in the arm) to stop him from stranding them, not to punish him. That's the key difference between self defense and revenge. Greer used the minimum necessary force. If Greer had shot him in the head, it probably would have been a different story.

escyos
October 31st, 2009, 12:05 PM
they have limited people for who knows how long, confining/executing people would be a waste

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 12:17 PM
they have limited people for who knows how long, confining/executing people would be a waste

It's not a waste to confine him if he will be actively working against everyone's best interests. They still have to have some kind of punishment and consequences or everything will break down.

Dain
October 31st, 2009, 12:30 PM
Only last episode, Spencer practically tried starting a mutiny and yet he was completely ignored after being knocked out. Apparantly Young thinks he cannot afford to lose him at the moment.
So it would be odd if he were to be harshly punished for something much more trivial.

Hopefully, Spencer doesn't violate Young's trust even further.

escyos
October 31st, 2009, 01:01 PM
It's not a waste to confine him if he will be actively working against everyone's best interests. They still have to have some kind of punishment and consequences or everything will break down.

dont forget young knows that people are annoyed at their situation and how young is running it, there was talk about it, when they were spyign with the kino.

confining him may have people ask why and when they found out he was hording supplies, people might come after him....or get the same idea

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 31st, 2009, 01:25 PM
Anyone else think it was a little odd that he got off with a proverbial slap on the wrist? If I was commanding a situation like that, stealing water and food would be call for summary execution.

Hell, in most martial law situations looting and stealing are met with deadly force, yet he got yelled at and locked up for all of 6 hours. Coupled with the fact that he already had to be dealt with during the shuttle incident, and Young is showing VERY poor leadership keeping him around.

He may have mental illness issues (we saw him taking medication, which is going to suck when he runs out) but he is still a soldier and should be held to higher standards in this situation.

We can all see the mutiny or murders coming, so why can't Young?

Seriously its not the 18th century looting and stealing is not met with deadly force now unless there is no other option. In a normal situation Spencer would be court marshalled, probably dishonourably discharged and jailed. Here in this case he is a Marine sergeant, clearly he has useful skills they need. Further the incident with the shuttle, while wrong, is in someway understandable, he was facing imminent and inevitable death. What is clear is that if Spencer steps out of line one more time I think Young will send Greer to visit him, that or he could just tell the other military men and women that Spencer stole food and see whether he survived the following blanket party.

Skydiver
October 31st, 2009, 01:40 PM
young has only a couple dozen men/women with military training, the rest are civilians. with unknown hostiles out there, he needs every trained person he can get.

he'll tolerate Spencer until the man is more of a liability than an asset, then he'll consider what to do with him.

garhkal
October 31st, 2009, 02:44 PM
Well, shooting one of your men might instigate some of the others to rebel, more than anything else.
Maybe reduced rations for a while and confinement to quarters for a few weeks, but that's it.

Plus with few people as it is, young feels he needs every able bodied person.

BUT i did like Young's "You step out of line i will deal with you myself" comment and Spencer's look after..


Kinda funny that no one thought anything about Greer shooting the scientist in Air part 3 because he was endangering the lives of the team, but Spencer stealing food and water from everyone gets a pass and shocked outrage about dealing with him harshly.

Greer shooting that one scientist was so he would not leave with the kino remote AND would not go to that locked out planet..

Descended
October 31st, 2009, 03:08 PM
dont forget young knows that people are annoyed at their situation and how young is running it, there was talk about it, when they were spyign with the kino.

confining him may have people ask why and when they found out he was hording supplies, people might come after him....or get the same idea

I think Young's main problem is one of communication. He could detain Spencer if he told people why, because no one would be sympathetic to someone who was stealing food from their mouth.

They really haven't established why these people are so disgruntled... beyond getting stranded there in the first place and even that is a breakdown of communication. Any person should be able to see the sense in rationing the supplies, so why are they so cutthroat all the sudden.

Young may need every able-bodied soldier but Spencer doesn't seem like the type of person you would trust at your back.


BUT i did like Young's "You step out of line i will deal with you myself" comment and Spencer's look after..

If he is not able to deal with him harshly, what good is the threat? At least to me, Spencer's look didn't seem like he was worried, more like he was even more mutinous. If anything I think he is more scared of Greer than Young.

Avenger
October 31st, 2009, 03:50 PM
Anyone else think it was a little odd that he got off with a proverbial slap on the wrist? If I was commanding a situation like that, stealing water and food would be call for summary execution.

In a strictly military situation, maybe. However, Young is giving Spencer a little leway due to the extraordinary circumstances.


Hell, in most martial law situations looting and stealing are met with deadly force, yet he got yelled at and locked up for all of 6 hours. Coupled with the fact that he already had to be dealt with during the shuttle incident, and Young is showing VERY poor leadership keeping him around.

If Young lowered to boom on Spencer, he would probably loose the civilians. This isn't a straight military situation. Furthermore, he needs every body that he has.


He may have mental illness issues (we saw him taking medication, which is going to suck when he runs out) but he is still a soldier and should be held to higher standards in this situation.

That's actually something that could be very interesting, though if he truloy did have mental issues that were so severe that he needed meds, he probably would have been medically discharged from the military and he certainly wouldn't be part of a top secret program.


We can all see the mutiny or murders coming, so why can't Young?

He can see dissent coming. That's exactly why he didn't come down hard on Spencer.

Major Tyler
October 31st, 2009, 04:01 PM
First, he was busted by Greer, who

we've already seen pocketing some of the Powerbars in AirGreer didn't pocket any power bars. That was Spencer.

Skydiver
October 31st, 2009, 05:51 PM
That's actually something that could be very interesting, though if he truloy did have mental issues that were so severe that he needed meds, he probably would have been medically discharged from the military and he certainly wouldn't be part of a top secret program.

exactly. you have mental exams to pass to be in the military, and especially in highly classified stuff like the SGC. if he was medically nuts, he woulnd't be there

Nemises
October 31st, 2009, 06:34 PM
I'm with Descended on this one! You can let go of a person who's stealing food when there's a shortage of food. Should have confined him for a week and reduced his rations.

Jeff-B
October 31st, 2009, 06:44 PM
Greer didn't pocket any power bars. That was Spencer.

I stand corrected.

TaoFire
November 1st, 2009, 07:46 AM
They need every pair of hands they can get. They're not in a conventional situation here. They can't just start locking valuble personell up for weeks at a time. Wholey unpractical. Not that i'd disagree with it..<snip>

Phenom
November 1st, 2009, 03:37 PM
Wow. Kill the bloke for stashing a few power bars. Good to see a few users from Thailand here on GW.

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 05:47 PM
this wasn't a kid hoarding supplies...this was a person, in a survival situation, potentially setting others up to starve to death in favor of himself surviving.

what he did was akin to, if they were on the titanic, him lying to people, saying there's another liferaft on the other side of the boat, to keep them from getting into his boat

he stole supplies. that kind of behavior, if not checked, could lead to an extreme of him trapping people on the wrong side of a bulkhead to save his own life.

He's a loose cannon that will either redeem himself, or will get himself killed

Jper
November 1st, 2009, 06:17 PM
I'm betting he will get himself killed.

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 06:20 PM
he will be a 'red shirt death of relief' :D

formerly 'bad' guy that heroically sacrifices, thus redeeming himself in the last moments of his life

Jper
November 1st, 2009, 06:22 PM
Probably yes. :D

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 06:24 PM
well, that or another Gorman...person making a stupid move that gets him killed

Jper
November 1st, 2009, 06:30 PM
well, that or another Gorman...person making a stupid move that gets him killed

Yeah, but we all know that such people actually exist. So no surprise there. Realistic enough.

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2009, 06:32 PM
execution for theft ? damn, might as well commit murder for that price then :/

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2009, 06:33 PM
btw was Greer also searched ? if not then chances are his hands ain't any cleaner than Spencer's (though he might get a free pass, being best buddies with his CO)

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 06:48 PM
i don't think so. greer may be a hot head and have anger issues...but if the job or duty is on the line, he does his duty. Duty comes before himself as far as Greer is concerned

SoulReaver
November 1st, 2009, 06:56 PM
I dunno...this chap's shady at best. besides there has to be a reason why he was in a holding cell back on that planet. if anything he's the first who should've been searched. instead he wasn't searched at all (apparently), in which case, well u know what happens when *most* people are placed above the rules. doesn't take long before they take advantage of it

Skydiver
November 1st, 2009, 07:06 PM
or we just didn't see that greer's and others quarters were already searched and their innocence proven

the fifth man
November 1st, 2009, 08:29 PM
or we just didn't see that greer's and others quarters were already searched and their innocence proven

Yeah, I don't see him being the type to steal like that anyways.

MattSilver 3k
November 1st, 2009, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I don't see him being the type to steal like that anyways.

Exactly. Greer's in a different catergory of hothead than Spencer. Greer's more quirky and seemingly loyal to Young, and I like him more.

Avenger
November 2nd, 2009, 01:05 AM
I dunno...this chap's shady at best. besides there has to be a reason why he was in a holding cell back on that planet. if anything he's the first who should've been searched. instead he wasn't searched at all (apparently), in which case, well u know what happens when *most* people are placed above the rules. doesn't take long before they take advantage of it

We do know why he was in the holding cell back on Icarus. He decked Telford.

Jper
November 2nd, 2009, 02:45 AM
and I like him more.

:D Such a good argument. :lol:

Sorry. :o

Cory Holmes
November 2nd, 2009, 04:21 AM
:D Such a good argument. :lol:

Sorry. :o

It's effective, isn't it?

AvatarIII
November 2nd, 2009, 04:26 AM
Anyone else think it was a little odd that he got off with a proverbial slap on the wrist? If I was commanding a situation like that, stealing water and food would be call for summary execution.


there's a proverb about being slapped on the wrist? who knew?!

semantics schemanitcs!

Skydiver
November 2nd, 2009, 05:07 AM
greer, the worst he's apparently done was deck telford...not exactly a bad thing as much as we've seen of Telford lately

Spencer, well he's hoarded food, hoarded water, tried to start a mutiny, disobeyed a direct order from Young...he's a trouble maker and a potential mutineer.

it's - for the SG1 fans - kind of like comparing General Hammond to General Bauer

KEK
November 2nd, 2009, 05:33 AM
I dunno...this chap's shady at best. besides there has to be a reason why he was in a holding cell back on that planet. if anything he's the first who should've been searched. instead he wasn't searched at all (apparently), in which case, well u know what happens when *most* people are placed above the rules. doesn't take long before they take advantage of it

Shady? He's probably one of the least shady, most frank and honest character's we've seen. And we know why he was in that cell by the way, he put Telford on his ass.

Cory Holmes
November 2nd, 2009, 05:37 AM
And we know why he was in that cell by the way, he put Telford on his ass.

Which also made his awesome-quotient shoot through the roof :D Anyone who lays Telford out is Made of Win in my book.

thedrumm3rguy
November 2nd, 2009, 05:40 AM
. If you don't want a mutiny on your hand, you don't go around shooting people simply because they've hidden away some food and water.


no, you shoot them and they BECOME the food and water ;)

Skydiver
November 2nd, 2009, 05:51 AM
in a situation like the Destiny's, you get trust and people following orders by being as up front with them as you can. You cut down on the secrets, you cut down on the double talk and lies. You get them to trust you.

Any civvie that saw Spencer lugging a can of water off to his quarters would automatically think 'the military's out to get us! they're going to hoard supplies so they can control us. we're not all in this together, it's us against them!!!' and it'll breed tension

What the Destiny desperately needs is a common goal. something all of them can ralley around and support and work towards.

Rush, as much as it will pain him, will not be leading that goal, because his goal is to stay on the ship and figure it out and explore. Young's goal is to get these people home. and get them home alive and in one piece - at least as much as he can manage.

to do this, he needs Rush and his understanding of the ship.

but young can't allow a 'us vs rush' attitude to grow. They need as much unity as possible.

Spencer, in his hoarding and stealing, is going directly against that. You can't tell me that he wouldn't have lead a revolt or defended his supplies with deadly force.

Rush will be a problem but Spencer is a worse one.

Cory Holmes
November 2nd, 2009, 05:54 AM
but young can't allow a 'us vs rush' attitude to grow. They need as much unity as possible.

Young himself pointed this out in Darkness:
"It's not just his problem, Volker, it's our problem."

wargrafix
November 2nd, 2009, 07:55 AM
Martial law situations allow for the use of summary execution as a punishment to preserve order. It is not prohibited under the Geneva convention when used in such a manner.

The use of that has been widely condemned anyways. The execution idea is bad anyway you cut it. The Japanese General at Iwo Jima would disagree with extreme forms of punishment which didn't help troop morale.

DoThKi
November 2nd, 2009, 11:18 AM
I think you've lost control and shown your own weakness if one of your first reactions is violence. Greer is the prime example of this. TJ handled Spencer correctly and with authority while Greer resorted to violence straight away. Scott also had to 'handle' Greer. Young is in a bind because he needs bodies but I'm sure Spencer will be more closely watched - Eli spying. I don't have any sympathy at all for Spencer but there are still basic aspects of humane behaviour that Young, Scott and TJ should strive for.

SoulReaver
November 2nd, 2009, 12:24 PM
Shady? He's probably one of the least shady, most frank and honest character's we've seen. And we know why he was in that cell by the way, he put Telford on his ass....yeah maybe, but I was talking about Greer :| btw who the hell's Telford ? :tealcanime49: (sry folks haven't been keeping track of all the names. unless it's someone we've yet to see in an upcoming episode)

Lord Hurin
November 2nd, 2009, 12:29 PM
...yeah maybe, but I was talking about Greer :| btw who the hell's Telford ? :tealcanime49: (sry folks haven't been keeping track of all the names. unless it's someone we've yet to see in an upcoming episode)

Telford is Lou Diamond Phillips' character. The other Colonel who Young keeps trading bodies with.

KEK
November 2nd, 2009, 01:43 PM
...yeah maybe, but I was talking about Greer :| btw who the hell's Telford ? :tealcanime49: (sry folks haven't been keeping track of all the names. unless it's someone we've yet to see in an upcoming episode)

So was I... oh you were trying to be funny? That's a shame. Better luck next time :sam49:

SoulReaver
November 2nd, 2009, 02:14 PM
So was I... oh you were trying to be funny? That's a shame. Better luck next time :sam49:so much cynicism in this world :(




Telford is Lou Diamond Phillips' character. The other Colonel who Young keeps trading bodies with.so he hit a superior officer ?
if that's true then I say it's a plus for him...indeed http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/knyten.gif

Lord Hurin
November 2nd, 2009, 02:22 PM
so he hit a superior officer ?
if that's true then I say it's a plus for him...indeed http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/knyten.gif

Yup, he hit a Colonel. Let's not forget though that this hardly seems like a pattern. He obviously has great respect for Young and a good friendship with Scott, so it seems like hitting Telford was an isolated incident rather than wide-ranging insubordination. Plus, Young and Greer agreed that Telford deserved to be decked.

Jeff-B
November 3rd, 2009, 02:49 AM
Young is put in a bad position by default. He happened to be the highest ranking military officer to end up there. It's pretty obvious that there's several people ready for a mutiny, with Spencer being the most obvious troublemaker. Young is faced with a dilemma, because he doesn't want to make a martyr out of him because that might embolden some others, like that scientist with the arm sling( don't recall his name offhand). The challenge is to find a suitable punishment without antagonizing everyone else. Should he have Wray deal with this? Don't forget Wray's exchange with Greer in Air, gave the impression that she had that kind of authority back at Icarus.

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 05:21 AM
greer was locked up for hitting telford

greer is the black non-com (the one that made the flame thrower in water)

telford is lou diamond philips, the colonel that keeps swapping bodies with Young

Young is the co of the mission and ship. the one that was injured in Air, and walking with a crutch in Darkness

Spencer is a caucasian, the one we see hoarding protein bars in Air, and whose quarters tehy tossed and found hoarded food and water

If i wasn't so lazy, I'd go and search out screen caps or promo pics of the folks :)

My gut tells me, with the antagonism and attitude we've seen from Telford towards Young (during one body swap - young comes back to find that Telford had been urging Scott and TJ to use the stones to communicate with Earth to tell the Pentagon that Young is unfit for command. Telford seems to be quite passionate about feeling that Young should not be in charge but that he, telford, should be)
My instinct tells me that the reason Greer smacked Telford is that he caught Telford dissing Young. My prediction is that Greer hit Telford in defense of Young, who Telford was back stabbing or insulting.

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 05:25 AM
a visual who's who

Young
http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/index.php/Everett_Young

greer
http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/index.php/Ronald_Greer

telford
http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/index.php/Telford

spencer
http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=898&pos=1158

Cory Holmes
November 3rd, 2009, 07:57 AM
My instinct tells me that the reason Greer smacked Telford is that he caught Telford dissing Young. My prediction is that Greer hit Telford in defense of Young, who Telford was back stabbing or insulting.

Indeed. Greer strikes me as the sort of person who doesn't give personal loyalty easily, but when he does it's for life. I imagine he's kind of like Teal'c: the sort of person you want as your friend, not coming at you head-on.

*imagines a strike team composed of Teal'c, Ronon, and Greer* Yipe! *cowers in terror*

Descended
November 3rd, 2009, 08:15 AM
If you have read threads I have posted to in the past you may have seen me wonder about the medication we have seen Spencer taking, i.e. whether or not it was an anti-psychotic drug or something similar.

Well I got curious and decided to try and identify what he was taking, and I believe I have...

I used the following high-resolution image from Gateworld and sharpened it so that I could more easily read the writing on the label.

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=300347&fullsize=1 (http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=300347&fullsize=1)

Blowing it up and sharpening allows you to make out some of the label:

"May cause dizziness. Alcohol may intensify this effect. Use care when operating a car or dangerous machinery."

"This medicine contains Acetaminophen, Taking more Acetaminophen than recommended may cause serious liver problems." - hard to make out, but identical to the warning label on this bottle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/catheroo/121466044/).

"Taking more of this medication than recommended may cause serious breathing problems."

The label than says "Round White #3" - with a little picture of the pills

Searching the pill identification database for "round white #3" nets the following results.
http://www.drugs.com/imprints.php?action=search&drugname=acetaminophen&imprint=3&color=12&shape=24&start=20

This identifies the medication as acetaminophen-codeine phosphate (which fits given the label warning) - This is a painkiller medication (Tylenol #3) which contains the opioid codeine and is rather addictive if taken long term.

Given Spencer's previous instances of stealing supplies, it is a pretty safe bet that he will begin stealing painkillers from TJ when he runs out. (foreshadowed by TJ complaining that she had to use some of their precious drugs to knock out Telford when he was abusing Young's body.)

From the transcript:
TELFORD: What did you ...

(He breathes heavily, then falls back onto the bed, unconscious. Johansen calmly starts packing her kit again.)

MEHTA: That was supposed to be for the pain! What did you give to him?

(Johansen picks up Telford's feet and swings him around so that he's lying flat on the bed.)

JOHANSEN: A strong sedative - which we are desperately short on and I should not have had to use - just so that Colonel Young can return to a body in working condition.


Comments?

jcoy
November 3rd, 2009, 08:25 AM
Nice work.

I assumed he was taking some sort of anti-depressant or anti-psychotic. I guess if he was he'd be less psychotic not more. And if they where subscribed he would probably have been shipped back to Earth and/or kicked out of the Marines.

But if he's addicted to pain killers. Wow. That could make for some great drama. And make his character redeemable if he gets help. Plus it's very realistic, they could have been prescribed for an injury and one thing led to another...

And when he runs out...

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 10:08 AM
Great research! It'll be interesting to see what they do with the character. I know the whole "jerkass has an epiphany and becomes a good guy" thing seems cliched, but really who likes being loathed? Trying to atone for your actions and become well-liked seems like a realistic human desire.

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 10:14 AM
Telford seems to be quite passionate about feeling that Young should not be in charge but that he, telford, should be

I don't know if I made this up, but I thought the arrangement was that Young was in command of the base (his "first command") and Telford would be leading the mission through the gate once they got the 9th Chevron working and all. Would make sense, as Young wouldn't be so super excited about leading another mission through the gate. He was an SG team leader for years before. He's done the away mission thing to the death.

Jper
November 3rd, 2009, 10:16 AM
I don't know if I made this up, but I thought the arrangement was that Young was in command of the base (his "first command") and Telford would be leading the mission through the gate once they got the 9th Chevron working and all. Would make sense, as Young wouldn't be so super excited about leading another mission through the gate. He was an SG team leader for years before. He's done the away mission thing to the death.

That is correct. :) It was mentioned in Air, pt.1&2

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 10:22 AM
yeah, and it explains the animosity between telford and young. and the reason greer was in the stockade. basically, as far as telford is concerned, young 'stole' his mission and is in his place. young would rather not be there, but he's kinda stuck. Greer supports Young implicitly...and spencer....personally I think that spencer is doomed and will likely be dead before the mid season break :)

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 10:22 AM
That is correct. :) It was mentioned in Air, pt.1&2

Ok, good to know I get my info from somewhere! :D

So yeah, Young thinks he really is the wrong guy to be leading the mission. I bet he'd still rather be on Destiny than Icarus base though. As he pointed out in this episode, "the last planet [he] was on, blew up!" :cool:

Jper
November 3rd, 2009, 10:27 AM
yeah, and it explains the animosity between telford and young. and the reason greer was in the stockade. basically, as far as telford is concerned, young 'stole' his mission and is in his place. young would rather not be there, but he's kinda stuck. Greer supports Young implicitly...and spencer....personally I think that spencer is doomed and will likely be dead before the mid season break :)

I totally agree. Especially with the Spencer part. :)


Ok, good to know I get my info from somewhere! :D

So yeah, Young thinks he really is the wrong guy to be leading the mission. I bet he'd still rather be on Destiny than Icarus base though. As he pointed out in this episode, "the last planet [he] was on, blew up!" :cool:

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. :)

Avenger
November 3rd, 2009, 11:13 AM
It couldn't be an anti-psychotic. He couldn't be active duty military if it was on anti-psychotics. Probably the same if he was depressed, especially with a program like the gate program. Painkillers makes the most sense. It could stem from having been wounded or injured. But good work finding the screen cap. There is no doubt that this will be important as the season progresses.

Cory Holmes
November 3rd, 2009, 11:44 AM
While you're probably right about Spencer's fate, I personally would rather see him grow as a character (and human being) over the course of the series until he's someone like Greer: acknolwedges he had issues in his past, but grew beyond them and become a truely respectable soldier.

Though according to TVTropes.org, Redemption Equals Death (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath), so both theories may turn out correct :)

garhkal
November 3rd, 2009, 12:55 PM
Indeed. Greer strikes me as the sort of person who doesn't give personal loyalty easily, but when he does it's for life. I imagine he's kind of like Teal'c: the sort of person you want as your friend, not coming at you head-on.

*imagines a strike team composed of Teal'c, Ronon, and Greer* Yipe! *cowers in terror*

I would hate to be on the receiving end of that threesome..

IcarusAbides
November 3rd, 2009, 01:15 PM
If you have read threads I have posted to in the past you may have seen me wonder about the medication we have seen Spencer taking, i.e. whether or not it was an anti-psychotic drug or something similar.

Well I got curious and decided to try and identify what he was taking, and I believe I have...

I used the following high-resolution image from Gateworld and sharpened it so that I could more easily read the writing on the label.

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=300347&fullsize=1 (http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=300347&fullsize=1)

Blowing it up and sharpening allows you to make out some of the label:

"May cause dizziness. Alcohol may intensify this effect. Use care when operating a car or dangerous machinery."

"This medicine contains Acetaminophen, Taking more Acetaminophen than recommended may cause serious liver problems." - hard to make out, but identical to the warning label on this bottle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/catheroo/121466044/).

"Taking more of this medication than recommended may cause serious breathing problems."

The label than says "Round White #3" - with a little picture of the pills

Searching the pill identification database for "round white #3" nets the following results.
http://www.drugs.com/imprints.php?action=search&drugname=acetaminophen&imprint=3&color=12&shape=24&start=20

This identifies the medication as acetaminophen-codeine phosphate (which fits given the label warning) - This is a painkiller medication (Tylenol #3) which contains the opioid codeine and is rather addictive if taken long term.

Given Spencer's previous instances of stealing supplies, it is a pretty safe bet that he will begin stealing painkillers from TJ when he runs out. (foreshadowed by TJ complaining that she had to use some of their precious drugs to knock out Telford when he was abusing Young's body.)

From the transcript:
TELFORD: What did you ...

(He breathes heavily, then falls back onto the bed, unconscious. Johansen calmly starts packing her kit again.)

MEHTA: That was supposed to be for the pain! What did you give to him?

(Johansen picks up Telford's feet and swings him around so that he's lying flat on the bed.)

JOHANSEN: A strong sedative - which we are desperately short on and I should not have had to use - just so that Colonel Young can return to a body in working condition.


Comments?

Nice work, some green for you.

major davis
November 3rd, 2009, 01:17 PM
I kinda find it hard to believe that a disobedient hot head like him even made it through boot camp never mind to seargent. Greer maybe, Spencer, no.

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 01:21 PM
Greer strikes me as the sort of person who doesn't give personal loyalty easily, but when he does it's for life. I imagine he's kind of like Teal'csholva ! how dare u insult my Teal'c :tealc44:

*imagines a strike team composed of Teal'c, Ronon, and Greer* Yipe! *cowers in terror*yeah man *imagines how offended Teal'c and even Ronon would feel* yipe ! :(

Avenger
November 3rd, 2009, 01:50 PM
I kinda find it hard to believe that a disobedient hot head like him even made it through boot camp never mind to seargent. Greer maybe, Spencer, no.

Spencer may have been able to keep his mouth shut under normal circumstances or there could be other contributing factors. He was seen popping pills in an earlier episode and those pills were some form of acetaminophen + codeine (there's a thread in this forum with a screen cap of the meds), so it's a pretty good possibility that he's hooked on prescription painkillers.

ARealArchaeologist
November 3rd, 2009, 05:08 PM
It couldn't be an anti-psychotic. He couldn't be active duty military if it was on anti-psychotics. Probably the same if he was depressed, especially with a program like the gate program. Painkillers makes the most sense. It could stem from having been wounded or injured. But good work finding the screen cap. There is no doubt that this will be important as the season progresses.

Great work D! I wanted to know, since in my previous job i was a pharm tech.
I have to say that although the military wouldn't let him stay in on anti-psychs and depression meds, it is amazing how easy it is to obtain them. I use to work in a methadone clinic and some of our patients regularly sold the medication they needed, and since quite often the symptoms don't get noticibly better (especially depression) no one would notice that they weren't getting the meds. We don't know that it is his Rx.

I agree though that he is or was under some sort of trauma (mental or addictive) and is using T3's to medicate the situation, so he doens't have to deal with it

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 05:59 PM
sholva ! how dare u insult my Teal'c :tealc44:
yeah man *imagines how offended Teal'c and even Ronon would feel* yipe ! :(

For the record, he wasn't "insulting" Teal'c. He was saying that both Greer and Teal'c are hesitant to give their loyalty to just anyone, but are unfailing when they think some one is worthy. I find it a fitting analogy. Neither man will follow the orders of just anyone just because they're a senior officer.

I'm guessing you don't like Greer... Can I ask why?

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM
I agree though that he is or was under some sort of trauma (mental or addictive) and is using T3's to medicate the situation, so he doens't have to deal with itif that is the case then he's basically a walking time bomb :/

For the record, he wasn't "insulting" Teal'c. He was saying that both Greer and Teal'c are hesitant to give their loyalty to just anyone, but are unfailing when they think some one is worthy. I find it a fitting analogy. Neither man will follow the orders of just anyone just because they're a senior officer.
I'm guessing you don't like Greer... Can I ask why?for the record I was JK...mostly. but you do seem quick to make parallels between these 2 even though we've seen very little of Greer which allows for such comparison. so he hit a superior officer. good, but why did he do it ? because he was given a wrong/unlawful order eg. shoot an innocent etc. & had the guts to stand up to it, or merely because of some other reason pertaining more to his self-interest ? or perhaps because he just likes to pick fights ? like when he threatened that asian woman, w/e her name - she's a civilian btw - in the pilot episode because...she disagreed with him (!) pretty much looked like he was gonna beat the crap outa her (perhaps some here consider that kewl, in which case hey to each their moral standards), which btw is something I doubt Teal'c would lower himself to. see, I dunno about you but Teal'c doesn't exactly come off as the "thug"/"dumb brick" type. as far as I'm concerned Greer has yet to show he's even a fraction what Teal'c has proven to be throughout the whole of SG1 be it in terms of honour, demeanour, self-restraint, charisma (ok let's leave that out - not fair)...or fighting skills for that matter :|
heck from what we've seen of Teal'c & even Ronon it's doubtful either of'em would take a liking to Greer. most likely they'd give him a good & well-deserved spanking the 1st chance they got. lol
btw for someone who "doesn't give their loyalty to anyone" - he does seem to have given his to Scott & Young rather quickly don't you think ?

edit> et tu ? u seem to be quite a staunch fan of the chap, I'm gonna ask u why (assuming there's more to it than superficial - and dubious - comparisons)

ARealArchaeologist
November 3rd, 2009, 06:39 PM
if that is the case then he's basically a walking time bomb :/

Most definelty, I wonder exactly how he will "go off" and the ramifications. There are so many places for the writers to take this one, will he hurt someone, will he be hurt....Who knows!

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:41 PM
so, we THINK spencer is on tylenol 3, potentially hooked on codine. this could explain his attitude.

it's POSSIBLE that he was a member of an SG team or even in Iraq or Afghanastan, was injured, was treated and given drugs...then started to self-medicate to deal with the PTSD. It's something - tragically - that happens all too often.

PSTD could also explain his attitude.

the thing is, the drugs won't last forever. and his withdrawl will likely have to be cold turkey. if he survives that long.

But, just because he seems to be an addict, doesn't make him evil. All too often with soldiers, it just means that they were injured in the line of duty and their mental recovery has been hampered by the 'do not show weakness' attitude of those in the more 'macho' trades. (not just soldiers, police, fire fighters, etc, they can all get trapped by the 'cannot be seen as weak by asking for help' mindset)

Replicator Todd
November 3rd, 2009, 06:43 PM
Spencer is the wrong person, in the wrong place.

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:46 PM
it may not make him evil but it does make him potentially dangerous, and yet another one they should lock up - pronto
Most definelty, I wonder exactly how he will "go off" and the ramifications. There are so many places for the writers to take this one, will he hurt someone, will he be hurt....Who knows!for some reason he reminds me of Cypher ^__^ (the traitor in the 1st Matrix movie). another decidedly anti-charismatic character, but potentially a good villain

Skydiver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:47 PM
i agree, it does make him dangerous.

but before they can lock him up they gotta know what his problem is

Avenger
November 3rd, 2009, 06:48 PM
But, just because he seems to be an addict, doesn't make him evil. All too often with soldiers, it just means that they were injured in the line of duty and their mental recovery has been hampered by the 'do not show weakness' attitude of those in the more 'macho' trades. (not just soldiers, police, fire fighters, etc, they can all get trapped by the 'cannot be seen as weak by asking for help' mindset)

Absolutely true. Codeine addictions are fairly common for people recovering from major surgeries. Having been wounded, perhaps on a mission through the gate, and going through the recovery process and he got hooked. It doesn't make him a bad guy. I'm really interested to see where they take it.

ARealArchaeologist
November 3rd, 2009, 06:53 PM
I agree with both of you he's not necessarily evil, he just is. I think the cypher analogy is spot on. I never felt like he was a bad person per se, just someone who was really tired of living a hard life, and instead of just moving on himself, decided that other people needed to be saved from this horrible existence (my opinion of course). I've known many with drug problems, and there are so many reasons people go down that path. We may end up feeling sympathetic for the guy because of past tragedy! Or he may end up one of the characters we love and respect after a long hard battle. Right now Spencer is probably really afraid and alone and there is no way to reach him.

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:56 PM
i agree, it does make him dangerous.

but before they can lock him up they gotta know what his problem isyeah but I'm sure they can perform an equally reliable diagnosis after he's locked up :|
(a bit of precaution doesn't hurt especially since his job is such that they cannot afford to take such risks)

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 06:58 PM
I think the cypher analogy is spot on. I never felt like he was a bad person per se, just someone who was really tired of living a hard life, and instead of just moving on himself, decided that other people needed to be saved from this horrible existence (my opinion of course).lol Cypher was as evil & rotten as it gets. he didn't betray his comrades for some "greater good" (they & the whole of Zion would've been wiped out so he could live on in his fantasy)

ARealArchaeologist
November 3rd, 2009, 07:02 PM
uh Cypher was as evil & rotten as it gets. he didn't betray his comrades for some "greater good" (they & the whole of Zion woudl've been wiped out so he could live on in his fantasy)

I guess I didn't explain myself well, quite often I don't :). I didn't mean he did it for the greater good, but sometimes people make decisions for everyone, whether its good for the people or not, it just was and was what he did, other opinions weren't important. I felt his actions were viewed more negitively because everyone loved Neo and few audience members accept betrayal.

prion
November 3rd, 2009, 07:05 PM
well, let's see.... spencer is popping pills - narcotics, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, hormones, what?? ;) has an attitude problem, but also got knocked out for 6.90 minutes, which is a definite concussion, so if his behavior is off now, it could be due to TBI, but I don't think the writers know what that is...

and then there's greer, in the brig, with an attitude problem, gun and flamethrower.

Hmm, wonder how long before someone gets murdered on board the Destiny...

So far they've giving us military people with lot sof problems (except for Scott, whose major problem is to keep alert while on duty) *cough cough*

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 07:05 PM
I guess I didn't explain myself well, quite often I don't :). I didn't mean he did it for the greater good, but sometimes people make decisions for everyone, whether its good for the people or not, it just was and was what he did, other opinions weren't important. I felt his actions were viewed more negitively because everyone loved Neo and few audience members accept betrayal.yeah well betrayal in general isn't held in high regard especially when done for purely selfish reasons :/

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 07:07 PM
Hmm, wonder how long before someone gets murdered on board the Destiny...and a Hitchcock in space ? http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/idee.gif

Lord Hurin
November 3rd, 2009, 07:38 PM
when he threatened that asian woman, w/e her name - she's a civilian btw - in the pilot episode because...she disagreed with him (!) pretty much looked like he was gonna beat the crap outa her (perhaps some here consider that kewl, in which case hey to each their moral standards), which btw is something I doubt Teal'c would lower himself to. see, I dunno about you but Teal'c doesn't exactly come off as the "thug"/"dumb brick" type. as far as I'm concerned Greer has yet to show he's even a fraction what Teal'c has proven to be throughout the whole of SG1 be it in terms of honour, demeanour, self-restraint, charisma (ok let's leave that out - not fair)...or fighting skills for that matter :|

Well in all fairness, Greer has only had a mere 6 hours(ish) for us to get to know him, as opposed to 10 years of getting to know Teal'c. It's not a fair comparison. I'd also like to say that we're not on opposite sides of the fence where Teal'c is concerned; I love that guy! :D

As far as the threat against the IOA woman goes, she was basically saying that she wanted him locked up again. He was right in saying it's not her decision to make, as (like you pointed out) she's a civilian and thus doesn't have final word in military matters. She can advise Young all she wants, he doesn't have to listen to her. I also think it took him some restraint not to do something to her. Restraint that just days earlier he didn't show. That proves that he's either a) against striking a civilian (as opposed to an officer) or b) that he's learned something. Teal'c wasn't above using his imposing size and glare for intimidation purposes.

Lastly, just because Greer is hot headed doesn't mean he's stupid. He DID build that flamethrower out of components they had at hand.

SoulReaver
November 3rd, 2009, 07:46 PM
I'd also like to say that we're not on opposite sides of the fence where Teal'c is concerned; I love that guy! :Deey at least we agree on something. Teal'c is my fave (I do prefer Bratac, but he's only a 2ndary character -)
He was right in saying it's not her decision to make, seeing how he's *supposed* to protect the civies (= taxpayers) as well, she has every right to be concerned even more so than his peers. ironically in threatening her he was actually proving her point
as (like you pointed out) she's a civiliandoes that make her inferior to him ? moving to beat her up doesn't exactly make him look like the poster boy for bravery does it...not the kinda behaviour one would expect from a Warrior at any rate. overreacting the way he did would warrant at least a trip to the brig, if not a trip through the airlock :/
Teal'c wasn't above using his imposing size and glare for intimidation purposes.against other combatants perhaps
besides Teal'c looks c00l when he "browbeats" his opponents, so there ! :tealc44:
Lastly, just because Greer is hot headed doesn't mean he's stupid. He DID build that flamethrower out of components they had at hand.no u got it backwards, it only shows how easy it is to build a flamethrower -_-

Cory Holmes
November 3rd, 2009, 09:57 PM
does that make her inferior to him ?
Not at all. What it does do, however, is remove Camille from the chain of command. That's pure military. Greer was totally right when he said 'that's not up to you'.

What proves Greer's loyalty to Young is his behaviour in Light, when he laid Spencer out cold and then threatened to do that to anyone else he had to. His name wasn't called out, so he was just as dead as everyone else and yet he still enforced Young's decisions. Add to that his heartfelt apology later on and it adds up to someone with deep respect and loyalty.

Which is just like Teal'c.

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 06:34 AM
Not at all. What it does do, however, is remove Camille from the chain of command. That's pure military. Greer was totally right when he said 'that's not up to you'.what he said ain't the problem
What proves Greer's loyalty to Young is his behaviour in Light, when he laid Spencer out cold and then threatened to do that to anyone else he had to. His name wasn't called out, so he was just as dead as everyone else and yet he still enforced Young's decisions. Add to that his heartfelt apology later on and it adds up to someone with deep respect and loyalty.

Which is just like Teal'c.a superficial comparison. IMO he respects Young as a fellow military not as a human, and also because Young emanates enough authority to keep him more or less in check. as for him punching Spencer, big deal. at best it shows he likes to pick a fight, instinct once again (the same way he moved to hit the asian lass back in the pilot ep). Teal'c would've simply browbeaten Spencer into submission, or at least tried to before resorting to h2h. oh and of course Teal'c doesn't beat up defenceless women (then again no [real] man does). to even mention Teal'c in the same sentence as Greer is an insult to the former, lol - one is a strong warrior with an equally strong sense of honour, the other's just a brawler & not even the bravest by the looks of it

Greer makes even Ronan look civilized http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/lol.gif

Sgt Detritus
November 4th, 2009, 07:43 AM
It occurs to me that we don't actually know why Greer punched Telford back at Icarus. For all we know Telford might have been in the right and just because Young and Greer think he deserved it doesn't make that the truth

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 08:18 AM
was is even confirmed that he was in that cell for hitting Telford ? I don't recall any mention of this in any of the episodes so far :tealcanime49: unless those are just spoilers (if not rumours) concerning upcoming eps..

Rachel500
November 4th, 2009, 09:43 AM
was is even confirmed that he was in that cell for hitting Telford ? I don't recall any mention of this in any of the episodes so far :tealcanime49: unless those are just spoilers (if not rumours) concerning upcoming eps..

Young mentions that the reason why Greer was in the cell was because he hit Telford in Light.

And as for Spencer...

I do think Young let him off very lightly. I think some of it is Young's leadership style - he seems happy enough to give the military men/women under his command a very long leash in terms of conduct, willing to give them second chances and believe the best of them.

It's interestingly (at least to me) very much the opposite to his relationship with the civilians and especially Rush where he doesn't give hardly any leash at all. I don't think a civilian would have been treated the same.

And I think part of it with Spencer is down to not wanting to make a big deal of it and give the civilians a 'win.' And maybe in that respect, lastly, it is also down to morale and not wanting to demoralise his troops through being harsh with one of them in a difficult situation.

Personally I'm betting that his lenient treatment of Spencer will come back and bite him in the butt.

Skydiver
November 4th, 2009, 10:26 AM
yeah, spencer will be a force to be reckoned with soon i think

and it is interesting. Young - the military dude - is the most democratic of them all while rush, the civilian, is the most controlling

quite the personality swappage

Sgt Detritus
November 4th, 2009, 11:10 AM
yeah, spencer will be a force to be reckoned with soon i think


Oh I certainly hope so!!!

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 11:32 AM
I think some of it is Young's leadership style - he seems happy enough to give the military men/women under his command a very long leash in terms of conduct, willing to give them second chances and believe the best of them.

It's interestingly (at least to me) very much the opposite to his relationship with the civilians and especially Rush where he doesn't give hardly any leash at all. I don't think a civilian would have been treated the same.if that's true then he's basically a very ****ty leader (trying not to use the "f*****t" word)
and the fact that Greer likes him doesn't go in Greer's favour either

so now we have 3 potential villains - Spencer, Greer & Young. this could be very interesting Indeed :|



and it is interesting. Young - the military dude - is the most democratic of them allapparently not, going by what Rachel500 said

Lord Hurin
November 4th, 2009, 11:37 AM
yeah, spencer will be a force to be reckoned with soon i think

and it is interesting. Young - the military dude - is the most democratic of them all while rush, the civilian, is the most controlling

quite the personality swappage

Aye, and I think Rush HAS to be kept on a short leash or else he'll run off into doing his own thing. Just because he doesn't want to be "burdened" with keeping the people he deems beneath him in the loop, it doesn't go to say that they don't deserve to know.

Young's attitude toward the other civilians like Brody and Volker seems a little harsh (telling them to "pull their heads out of their asses" and soforth) but I don't get the feeling that it's out of spite or dislike. He's just reminding them that they're best qualified for helping figure the ship's systems out. Don't forget his reaction when Eli shows him the exchange between Franklin and Volker; "they're harmless" Young says. It seems if he were trying to be a hard ass that he would've brought them both in for a stern talking to, at the very least.

Lord Hurin
November 4th, 2009, 11:47 AM
what he said ain't the problema superficial comparison. IMO he respects Young as a fellow military not as a human, and also because Young emanates enough authority to keep him more or less in check. as for him punching Spencer, big deal. at best it shows he likes to pick a fight, instinct once again (the same way he moved to hit the asian lass back in the pilot ep). Teal'c would've simply browbeaten Spencer into submission, or at least tried to before resorting to h2h. oh and of course Teal'c doesn't beat up defenceless women (then again no [real] man does). to even mention Teal'c in the same sentence as Greer is an insult to the former, lol - one is a strong warrior with an equally strong sense of honour, the other's just a brawler & not even the bravest by the looks of it

Greer makes even Ronan look civilized http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/lol.gif

I think Greer and Spencer have had some issues with each other in the past. Greer was obviously not willing in this episode (Water) to believe that Spencer had brought the power bars with him through the gate. Having said that, it was imperative to shut Spencer up damn quick when he tried inciting mutiny. So far, he hasn't seemed like the guy who'll back down after a friendly "umm, please stop? kthx" so more drastic measures were needed.

You also mention that Teal'c wouldn't hit a woman. Well, so far, neither would Greer. He clearly decked Telford while other people were around, so why wouldn't he just up and hit Wray if he was such a "big dumb brawler"? That, I think, also nullifies your "he only respects the military" argument.

As a final note, I don't think we should compare Teal'c and Greer as though one was replacing the other. They're two, distinct characters from two very different shows. Also, the amount of screentime Teal'c has had over Greer tips the balance overwhelmingly in his favour. Having said that, in the context of the new show with an all new cast, Greer is definitely one of my favourites. Perhaps comparing him to Teal'c should be seen as more of an honour for this new, fledgling character than as an insult to everyone's favourite Shol'va. ;)

Cory Holmes
November 4th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Perhaps comparing him to Teal'c should be seen as more of an honour for this new, fledgling character than as an insult to everyone's favourite Shol'va. ;)
That was my thought.

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 11:59 AM
You also mention that Teal'c wouldn't hit a woman. Well, so far, neither would Greer. He clearly decked Telford while other people were around, so why wouldn't he just up and hit Wray if he was such a "big dumb brawler"? That, I think, also nullifies your "he only respects the military" argument....what ? http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/heink.gif he sure was gonna hit Wray - or worse - and would've done so if Scott hadn't stopped him (unless you're talking about someone else - I was talking about the asian woman in the pilot episode, if her name ain't Wray then I dunno what it is)


Perhaps comparing him to Teal'c should be seen as more of an honour for this new, fledgling characterhttp://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/non.gif
=>

Perhaps no one should be seen comparing this new, fledgling character to Teal'cfixed 4 u

Lord Hurin
November 4th, 2009, 12:04 PM
...what ? http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/heink.gif he sure was gonna hit Wray - or worse - and would've done so if Scott hadn't stopped him (unless you're talking about someone else - I was talking about the asian woman in the pilot episode, if her name ain't Wray then I dunno what it is)

Yea that's Wray. I don't remember Scott even being there though. I remember Scott telling Greer to back down from shooting Rush in the pilot. I guess a read over the transcript is in order.

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Yea that's Wray. I don't remember Scott even being there though. I remember Scott telling Greer to back down from shooting Rush in the pilot. I guess a read over the transcript is in order.frak, ok it wasn't Scott - someone did stop Greer from beating up Wray though, can't remember who it was :/

senatorincitatus
November 4th, 2009, 12:14 PM
...what ? http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/heink.gif he sure was gonna hit Wray - or worse - and would've done so if Scott hadn't stopped him (unless you're talking about someone else - I was talking about the asian woman in the pilot episode, if her name ain't Wray then I dunno what it is)

We don't know what he would've done. For all we know, he was just going to advance on her menacingly and depend on that bit of physical intimidation to make his point.

Incidentally, I was rewatching early SG-1 not all that long ago, and Teal'c gets in some pretty harsh manhandling of Drey'auc in Bloodlines. At one point he grabs her hair and yanks her head back. How is that okay but the maybe-would've-been-a-hit-but-we-don't-know-because-it-never-happened from Greer not?


frak, ok it wasn't Scott - someone did stop Greer from beating up Wray though, can't remember who it was :/

It was Riley.

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 12:18 PM
We don't know what he would've done. For all we know, he was just going to advance on her menacingly and depend on that bit of physical intimidation to make his point.really ? because it sure didn't look like he was gonna stop, sit down & have a chat http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/aha.gif furthermore this Riley chap did consider his attitude dangerous enough to feel the need to intervene pronto
in other words Greer wasn't bluffing
Incidentally, I was rewatching early SG-1 not all that long ago, and Teal'c gets in some pretty harsh manhandling of Drey'auc in Bloodlines. At one point he grabs her hair and yanks her head back. How is that okay but the maybe-would've-been-a-hit-but-we-don't-know-because-it-never-happened from Greer not?so basically you're comparing a Xena-like amazon with super-strength (at least when the jaffa aren't afflicted by PIS) to a unarmed human civilian whose "experience" in combat & warfare does not a priori exceed that of a Bruce Lee movies fan and who was only "assaulting" him verbally ? http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/19/vx911.gif
or what part of this :


of course Teal'c doesn't beat up defenceless womendidn't u get ?

Rachel500
November 4th, 2009, 01:11 PM
You know I love Teal'c - love him - but early episodes on Jaffa culture did show at least on Chulak and in Teal'c's marriage that there was a distinct male dominance especially in marriage (he calls Drey'auc 'woman' a few times) which included some rough handling that certainly in Earth Western culture is looked on as unacceptable. Teal'c's behaviour towards Drey'auc at times isn't all noble warrior. I also think we have to remember Teal'c was once the First Prime of Apophis and he didn't get there by being meek and mild; when he goes Jaffa revenge, he's uncontrollable and doesn't listen to Jack or anyone in his pursuit for vengence (whether deserved or not). It is Teal'c's own recognition of his acts, of his behaviour, his search for honour and redemption that elevates him as a character IMO.

I don't actually have an opinion on whether Greer is like Teal'c in terms of underlying honour - we haven't seen enough of him.

I do think he has a temper and that when he's provoked and volatile, Greer can't be trusted (TJ did remove him from the situation because of this); I also think from what I've seen is that he's a very competent soldier who has a loyalty and admiration for Young, and a surprisingly spiritual side.

And to bring this back on topic, I do think Greer and Spencer are going to clash again because Greer definitely *got* that Spencer's acknowledgement to Young was patently false. Spencer was completely ungrateful that he had been spared anything more than being locked up for a period of time which to me indicates Young got the level of punishment here wrong - Spencer completely disrespected him for it.

senatorincitatus
November 4th, 2009, 01:14 PM
so basically you're comparing an Xena-like amazon with super-strength (at least when the jaffa aren't plagued by PIS) to an unarmed civilian whose "experience" in combat & warfare does not a priori exceed that of a bruce lee movies fan ?
or what part of this :didn't u get ?

Probably the part where Drey'auc's strength, while greater than a human's, was still less than Teal'c's. He was stronger than she was, and far more capable of doing harm to her than she was to him, and that's my point.

In any case, your whole argument centers around the belief that Teal'c is a saint while Greer is a complete brute in all respects, which I don't think is remotely in evidence. And that's fine; we can disagree. But it seems clear that no one is going to shake your belief in that, so, with respect, I'm no longer going to try.

And back on topic...

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to see some backstory on Spencer. On top of wanting to know why he's on drugs, I'm curious to know if his current behavior is a result of the stress of being on Destiny, possible rationing of his medication, or if he's just always been a little difficult. He seems to have very little respect for Young; is that because of the circumstances, because of the drugs, or because Spencer was under Telford's command and the animosity between the Colonels trickled down to those under their command?

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 01:19 PM
You know I love Teal'c - love him - but early episodes on Jaffa culture did show at least on Chulak and in Teal'c's marriage that there was a distinct male dominance especially in marriage (he calls Drey'auc 'woman' a few times) which included some rough handling that certainly in Earth Western culture is looked on as unacceptable. Teal'c's behaviour towards Drey'auc at times isn't all noble warrior. I also think we have to remember Teal'c was once the First Prime of Apophis and he didn't get there by being meek and mild; when he goes Jaffa revenge, he's uncontrollable and doesn't listen to Jack or anyone in his pursuit for vengence (whether deserved or not). It is Teal'c's own recognition of his acts, of his behaviour, his search for honour and redemption that elevates him as a character IMO.

I don't actually have an opinion on whether Greer is like Teal'c in terms of underlying honour - we haven't seen enough of him.

I do think he has a temper and that when he's provoked and volatile, Greer can't be trusted (TJ did remove him from the situation because of this); I also think from what I've seen is that he's a very competent soldier who has a loyalty and admiration for Young, and a surprisingly spiritual side.

And to bring this back on topic, I do think Greer and Spencer are going to clash again because Greer definitely *got* that Spencer's acknowledgement to Young was patently false. Spencer was completely ungrateful that he had been spared anything more than being locked up for a period of time which to me indicates Young got the level of punishment here wrong - Spencer completely disrespected him for it.**** I figured Drey'auc was the blonde jaffa one played by the Jolene Blalock...if Drey'auc is his wife then the last we saw of her was in season 1 right ? :confused: the ep where he saves his son by finding a symbiote or something...unless that was another ep...when exactly did he beat his wife ? (because I certainly don't recall such a scene) punch ? kick ? slap ? what was the context ?






Probably the part where Drey'auc's strength, while greater than a human's, was still less than Teal'c's.really ? admittedly this is plausible, however without a 1:1 confrontation it's hard to gauge. what we do know however is that his jaffa g/f (the long-haired blonde) was holding her own against him during their fight. this to say size alone doesn't suffice to compare strength, no more than it does in the Buffy-verse. but for argument's sake, let's assume you're right about Drey'auc. even then their difference in strength can't be as great as u make it out to be since most of it comes from the snake & not the host. which means Drey'auc could probably ****stomp present-day Teal'c (without his snake) -_-
He was stronger than she was, and far more capable of doing harm to her than she was to him, and that's my point. capable. same question, what *harm* did he do to her exactly ?
In any case, your whole argument centers around the belief that Teal'c is a saint relativity. don't u love it
u also overlooked the part about Bratac btw
while Greer is a complete brute in all respects, which I don't think is remotely in evidence. But it seems clear that no one is going to shake your belief in that, so, with respect, I'm no longer going to try.not remotely in evidence ?? talk about "belief". lol. what will it take to shake yours, Greer going on a shooting spree throughout the ship ?

senatorincitatus
November 4th, 2009, 01:47 PM
**** I figured Drey'auc was the blonde jaffa one played by the Jolene Blalock...if Drey'auc is his wife then the last we saw of her was in season 1 right ? :confused: the ep where he saves his son's by finding a symbiote or something...unless that was another ep...when exactly did he beat his wife ? (because I certainly don't recall such a scene) punch ? kick ? slap ? what was the context ?

Drey'auc was Teal'c's wife, played by Salli Richardson in Bloodlines and Brook Peters in Family and Threshold. For the rest -


Teal'c gets in some pretty harsh manhandling of Drey'auc in Bloodlines. At one point he grabs her hair and yanks her head back.




capable. same question, what *harm* did he do to her exactly ?

None. What harm did Greer do Wray?


relativity, actually. gotta love it

not remotely in evidence ?? talk about belief. lol. what will it take to shake yours, Greer going on a friday-the-13th style rampage throughout the ship ?

Probably him actually doing something notably brutish instead of just behaving like a not-at-all-atypical serving member of the armed forces.


...which I don't think is remotely in evidence. And that's fine; we can disagree.


...no one is going to shake your belief in that, so, with respect, I'm no longer going to try.

Reiterating the above.

Skydiver
November 4th, 2009, 01:52 PM
teal'c was raised in a very 'woman in thy place' (which is barefoot and preggers) lifestyle. That's how the jaffa are, men are bosses.

It's an attitude that they changed in him because the writers likely knew that they can't have one of their heroes a misogynistic jerk. :)

we haven't seen that with spencer or greer. they seem equal opportunity 'just do your job so i can do mine' men, with spencer having a side of 'me first and to heck with the rest'.

Young...i see young's treatment of the scientists more as frustration. here are they, the folks that know what a gate is, that have a leg up on the tech crying 'it's so tough' while the new guy, who'd never even heard of the gate 72 hours ago, working to solve the problem.

bit frustrating i would think

senatorincitatus
November 4th, 2009, 02:05 PM
And to bring this back on topic, I do think Greer and Spencer are going to clash again because Greer definitely *got* that Spencer's acknowledgement to Young was patently false. Spencer was completely ungrateful that he had been spared anything more than being locked up for a period of time which to me indicates Young got the level of punishment here wrong - Spencer completely disrespected him for it.

I think the disrespect came before the (lack of) punishment, but Young's handling of it didn't really help. I don't think that Young's decision on how to handle Spencer was necessarily wrong, but once Spencer reacted to being let out of holding with such blatant disrespect, Young should have called him on it instead of letting him walk on by. The initial judgment was not necessarily wrong, but letting Spencer get away with that attitude was.

SoulReaver
November 4th, 2009, 02:06 PM
teal'c was raised in a very 'woman in thy place' (which is barefoot and preggers) lifestyle. That's how the jaffa are, men are bosses.

It's an attitude that they changed in him because the writers likely knew that they can't have one of their heroes a misogynistic jerk. :)good point. whatever miso-attitude Tela'c may have had back in season 1 (back when zats could disintegrate things like magic), TPTB subsequently retconned it. so we are talking about present day Teal'c :cameron: (I do wish he'sd get his snake back, though)


None. What harm did Greer do Wray?none. what harm did Teal'c intend to do to Drey'auc ?
Probably him actually doing something notably brutish instead of just behaving like a not-at-all-atypical serving member of the armed forces.k well if u ignore threats & intent and insist upon actions alone then fine by me
Reiterating the above.dude you will come around. resistance is futile :|

MattSilver 3k
November 4th, 2009, 02:53 PM
It's an attitude that they changed in him because the writers likely knew that they can't have one of their heroes a misogynistic jerk. :)

Exactly! We can't have the characters acting like the people writing them, eh? :D

Descended
November 4th, 2009, 06:40 PM
Exactly! We can't have the characters acting like the people writing them, eh? :D

Teal'c wasnt really retconned, he didn't suddenly become different, he learned that his previous beliefs were wrong... he spent all that time with Sam who was a great warrior, so it isn't too big a leap to think he realized the error of his ways on his own.

Plus, we know that Teal'c didn't really agree with a lot of the Jaffa society rules, he merely aped them to get along (i.e. worshipping the goa'uld) - The Jaffa didn't strike me as horribly sexist though, they had female warriors, and when they formed a government several of the leaders in the new Jaffa nation were women, I think it was just a few bad examples that led to them being characterized like that (i.e. Citano/Imhotep)

Skydiver
November 4th, 2009, 07:00 PM
umm, well, the Jaffa only had female warriors in the later seasons. and that was only after teh women 'rebeled' against Molok, who had every female child put to death to save resources for the male children

In Warrior, K'Tano and others are distinctly 'woman in thy place', even bra'tac made a comment about women

BRA'TAC: You, you are among the warriors who defeated the palace
guard at Chulak? A human woman?

CARTER: Hey, I'll have you know I kicked my…

He moves on to Daniel.

BRA'TAC: And you? A warrior of great skill and cunning? I could
snap
you like kindling! How could you bring these hashack with you?

--

that all said, spencer isn't like that. he's very self-motivated, and seems to be under the influence of some chemical substance, which is, no doubt, influencing his actions

I do think that young could have been tougher with him, but given the lack of personnel and even a locked door, what can they do?

Rachel500
November 5th, 2009, 01:44 AM
I think the disrespect came before the (lack of) punishment, but Young's handling of it didn't really help. I don't think that Young's decision on how to handle Spencer was necessarily wrong, but once Spencer reacted to being let out of holding with such blatant disrespect, Young should have called him on it instead of letting him walk on by. The initial judgment was not necessarily wrong, but letting Spencer get away with that attitude was.

You could be right. Spencer certainly seems to have issues with command - he's part of the group that approaches Eli, he's busily looking after number one by hording resources, he's quick to argue against the lottery idea...which kind of does beg the question why Young was so lenient with him to begin with. It may be his style and not wanting to demoralise troops as I've said but it's still not a great decision, IMO.

I agree with you that Young should have pulled up Spencer when he pushed past him with a clearly disrespectful 'yes, sir.' I can't imagine Jack, Caldwell or even Sheppard for that matter allowing that behaviour without jumping all over it.

Cold Fuzz
November 5th, 2009, 01:54 AM
You could be right. Spencer certainly seems to have issues with command - he's part of the group that approaches Eli, he's busily looking after number one by hording resources, he's quick to argue against the lottery idea...which kind of does beg the question why Young was so lenient with him to begin with. It may be his style and not wanting to demoralise troops as I've said but it's still not a great decision, IMO.

I agree with you that Young should have pulled up Spencer when he pushed past him with a clearly disrespectful 'yes, sir.' I can't imagine Jack, Caldwell or even Sheppard for that matter allowing that behaviour without jumping all over it.

Agreed. I'm not in the military (only law enforcement) and I would never have allowed that kind of disrespectful behavior. I know he considers people like Drs. Franklin and Volker to be "harmless" but it's a sign of something unbelievably ugly brewing in the background. With the scientists griping and people like Spencer hoarding food, even Sgt. Riley is part of this group. There is virtually zero trust on the ship and if Young doesn't start building that trust soon, the ship is going to explode--and not from any technical issues. Mutiny = big time bloodshed

Jeff-B
November 5th, 2009, 02:49 AM
As far as the "wannabe mutineers" that cornered Eli, that's getting gradually defused. James was the ostensible leader of that group, and just wanted to know what's going on with the whole situation. Now( as of Water anyway) she seems to be more in the loop because she found out about Scott being stuck quickly enough to get Chloe down to the Gateroom while Rush and Young were still discussing it over the radio. Riley seems to be getting more involved in what's going on also, while Spencer, Volker, and Franklin seem to be the only ones left trying to cause trouble. Although there could have been ulterior motives for James to informing Chloe about Scott, we don't know yet.

Skydiver
November 5th, 2009, 04:49 AM
is spencer a marine?

if so, that could explain Young's attitude. Young is Air Force. It's my understanding that Greer is a Marine...inter-service rivalry, it's a vicious thing. sometimes friendly, other times very 'in your face'

Sgt Detritus
November 5th, 2009, 05:04 AM
As far as the "wannabe mutineers" that cornered Eli, that's getting gradually defused. James was the ostensible leader of that group, and just wanted to know what's going on with the whole situation. Now( as of Water anyway) she seems to be more in the loop because she found out about Scott being stuck quickly enough to get Chloe down to the Gateroom while Rush and Young were still discussing it over the radio. Riley seems to be getting more involved in what's going on also, while Spencer, Volker, and Franklin seem to be the only ones left trying to cause trouble.

So wanting to be kept in the loop as far as the situation goes, not wanting to be spied upon and not liking the way Young and his pet meatheads are treating them equates to "trying to cause trouble"??

Sgt Detritus
November 5th, 2009, 05:12 AM
is spencer a marine?

if so, that could explain Young's attitude. Young is Air Force. It's my understanding that Greer is a Marine...inter-service rivalry, it's a vicious thing. sometimes friendly, other times very 'in your face'

The Stargate Wiki doesn't make it clear whether Spencer is Marines or Army. If he's Army and Greer is Marines then that could go some way to explain the "situation" between them

Radahldo
November 5th, 2009, 05:34 AM
So wanting to be kept in the loop as far as the situation goes, not wanting to be spied upon and not liking the way Young and his pet meatheads are treating them equates to "trying to cause trouble"??

Well there's still the gate incident Frankin was key in. He's proven to posses a capacity for acting on his disagreements with his superiors, but still Young said he was harmless.That the choice he made (on the sand planet) wasn't an indelible strike against his reputation says something to how fairly he's being treated, and how petulant and a troublemaker he must seem to Young, Rush and etc in continuing that same attitude.

Skydiver
November 5th, 2009, 05:37 AM
we know that Young is Air Force, and I'm sure that Greer is a Marine.

I don't know if regular army has really been a part of the SGC or not. It seemed to be AF and USMC.

but if Spencer is a jarhead, it would explain his issues with Young and also Young's seeming reticence to harshly discipline him.

jcoy
November 5th, 2009, 05:47 AM
is spencer a marine?

if so, that could explain Young's attitude. Young is Air Force. It's my understanding that Greer is a Marine...inter-service rivalry, it's a vicious thing. sometimes friendly, other times very 'in your face'

Spencer is a Marine. I think I've seen it written on his uniform and the camouflage pattern he wears (brownish, Army/Air Force wear greyish) is the one used by the US Marines.

;) The Air Force and Marines are natural enemies. ;)



Well there's still the gate incident Frankin was key in. He's proven to posses a capacity for acting on his disagreements with his superiors, but still Young said he was harmless.That the choice he made (on the sand planet) wasn't an indelible strike against his reputation says something to how fairly he's being treated, and how petulant and a troublemaker he must seem to Young, Rush and etc in continuing that same attitude.

I think Franklin will give it a little more thought before he goes against orders again. Not because he got shot, but because he would be missing with the other two if Greer hadn't stopped him.

In fact I think some of the friction between characters will go away as everyone starts to trust each other. Probably right before or right after they have a real enemy to fight.

Greer just needs to shoot a few more people. :ronananime01:

Sgt Detritus
November 5th, 2009, 07:03 AM
If there turns out to be a traitor/spy aboard in a later episode I have a terrible feeling that Young will automatically think it's Spencer and treat him like Dr Weir treated Kavanagh in an episode of Atlantis

Arga
November 5th, 2009, 08:49 AM
I found it strange how Spencer walked out of his "jail".

I mean, Young didn't authorised him to get out of the room.. or did I miss something?
Spencer just thought he could answer him and walk away. This attitude doesn't seem very "military" to me.
I was expecting a "You're dismissed" from Young, but there was no direct order to let Spencer free.

What do you think?
For me, it's an error from the writing staff, who doesn't follow military rules.

Jeff-B
November 5th, 2009, 03:28 PM
So wanting to be kept in the loop as far as the situation goes, not wanting to be spied upon and not liking the way Young and his pet meatheads are treating them equates to "trying to cause trouble"??

Spencer already came awful close to inciting a mutiny once already, and probably would have succeeded if Greer hadn't dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Then he was caught red-handed hoarding probably 10 gallons of water or more while Young and associates are trying to ration it to last as long as possible. You could kind of expect civilian scientists to act like this, but being military he should know better.

I've never been in the military, but aren't you supposed to follow orders from a superior officer without question? Even specifically in SG canon, wasn't there a few times that some Marines accompanied SG1 on missions, and they followed O'Neill's (Air Force Colonel's) orders to hold the gate?

Skydiver
November 5th, 2009, 08:00 PM
you follow orders without question, unless you find those orders morally objectionable (as an extreme example, if your CO says 'kill those unarmed civilians')

And following orders....depends on who's got the greater rank and who's in command. O'Neill often was, yet i seem to recall a mission (unless it's a fanfic) where jack wasn't in command. he was just 'along for the ride' and command of the mission belonged to someone else.

And if there was a case like there was Colonel O'Neill and Colonel Makepeace, it would be stated before the mission started which one of them was the boss and the other would defer to him

that said, in the case of hte destiny, there are 4 whole officers on the ship, young, scott, tj, and James. Every other military person should submit to them because these officers out rank them

hedwig
November 5th, 2009, 08:05 PM
greer was locked up for hitting telford

greer is the black non-com (the one that made the flame thrower in water)

telford is lou diamond philips, the colonel that keeps swapping bodies with Young

Young is the co of the mission and ship. the one that was injured in Air, and walking with a crutch in Darkness

Spencer is a caucasian, the one we see hoarding protein bars in Air, and whose quarters tehy tossed and found hoarded food and water

If i wasn't so lazy, I'd go and search out screen caps or promo pics of the folks :)

My gut tells me, with the antagonism and attitude we've seen from Telford towards Young (during one body swap - young comes back to find that Telford had been urging Scott and TJ to use the stones to communicate with Earth to tell the Pentagon that Young is unfit for command. Telford seems to be quite passionate about feeling that Young should not be in charge but that he, telford, should be)
My instinct tells me that the reason Greer smacked Telford is that he caught Telford dissing Young. My prediction is that Greer hit Telford in defense of Young, who Telford was back stabbing or insulting.

The big problem with Telford wanting to be in command is even if the military and IOA went along with that notion, just how are they going to permanently get him on the ship? I very much doubt that Young would be willing to do a permanent body switch with him, if that could even be done. Or am I missing something that would explain how he could be permanently in charge of the mission on the ship? :)

Skydiver
November 5th, 2009, 08:12 PM
you're missing nothing, but perhaps a character's 'single minded focus'

cause, hey, if they could swap out personnel, the whole 'they're the wrong people' would be kinda lame :)

Jeff-B
November 6th, 2009, 02:50 AM
you follow orders without question, unless you find those orders morally objectionable (as an extreme example, if your CO says 'kill those unarmed civilians')

And following orders....depends on who's got the greater rank and who's in command. O'Neill often was, yet i seem to recall a mission (unless it's a fanfic) where jack wasn't in command. he was just 'along for the ride' and command of the mission belonged to someone else.

I haven't read any fanfic yet, but I do know that there was at least once (Lost City) where Jack turned over command to Carter. Of course Jack knew he was in the process of losing his mind at the time. Carter was still an officer, and I believe even the only other military person present.

Avenger
November 6th, 2009, 03:00 AM
Spencer's a Marine. No doubt about that. Young having a bias against Marines isn't exactly true because he likes Greer. Maybe Spencer was under Telford's command and he holds some animosity toward Young because of it.

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2009, 03:51 AM
Spencer's a Marine. No doubt about that. Young having a bias against Marines isn't exactly true because he likes Greer. Maybe Spencer was under Telford's command and he holds some animosity toward Young because of it.

Or alternatively Spencer may have been on Telford's side in the situation which led to Greer punching Telford.

BTW a lot of people here seem to be backing Greer over the Telford incident when surely punching a superior officer is just as bad as what Spencer was doing when he was kicking off over the shuttle lottery

Skydiver
November 6th, 2009, 05:02 AM
I haven't read any fanfic yet, but I do know that there was at least once (Lost City) where Jack turned over command to Carter. Of course Jack knew he was in the process of losing his mind at the time. Carter was still an officer, and I believe even the only other military person present.
it's 'normal' for a higher ranking officer to ceed command to a lower ranking officer.

for example, in 'it's good to be the king', when jack went to maybourne's planet, i believe that sam was still in command of that mission, so he'd have to follow her orders. not that it ever came to that.

commander of the mission may not be the highest ranking officer.

jelgate
November 6th, 2009, 06:25 AM
it's 'normal' for a higher ranking officer to ceed command to a lower ranking officer.

for example, in 'it's good to be the king', when jack went to maybourne's planet, i believe that sam was still in command of that mission, so he'd have to follow her orders. not that it ever came to that.

commander of the mission may not be the highest ranking officer.

You example doesn't work because I remember jack giving sam orders in its "good to be king." While I agree a higher ranking officer can give command to somone lower the highest ranking will be the commandar if less someone even higher says otherwise

Skydiver
November 6th, 2009, 07:54 AM
thing is, yeah, jack could order her. and likely always CAN order her. however, if the mission was hers and she was running it, she could countermand him.

thing is, taht kinda of stuff kinda makes situations tense, so it's a card that's rarely played

there was also the difference that jack, as co of the sgc, would always be able to order her, but in The Tomb, hammond made it very clear to the russian colonel that jack was in command.

Cory Holmes
November 6th, 2009, 08:19 AM
BTW a lot of people here seem to be backing Greer over the Telford incident when surely punching a superior officer is just as bad as what Spencer was doing when he was kicking off over the shuttle lottery
That's because Greer is made of 100% uncomprimising, pure awesomeness!

senatorincitatus
November 6th, 2009, 09:19 AM
BTW a lot of people here seem to be backing Greer over the Telford incident when surely punching a superior officer is just as bad as what Spencer was doing when he was kicking off over the shuttle lottery

Couple reasons. For one thing, I don't think most people like Telford as much as they like Young. For another, we don't know the circumstances of the Telford incident, but Spencer was in very real danger of inciting the remaining crew to riot and needed to be stopped posthaste. It's unlikely that the situation that led to Greer hitting Telford was comparable.


That's because Greer is made of 100% uncomprimising, pure awesomeness!

And also because of this. :D

wargrafix
November 6th, 2009, 10:30 AM
But greer is still part of a more troubling attitude set.

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2009, 11:30 AM
Couple reasons. For one thing, I don't think most people like Telford as much as they like Young. For another, we don't know the circumstances of the Telford incident, but Spencer was in very real danger of inciting the remaining crew to riot and needed to be stopped posthaste. It's unlikely that the situation that led to Greer hitting Telford was comparable.


Surely whether Telford is less likeable than Young is completely besides the point. Greer still struck a superior officer


But greer is still part of a more troubling attitude set.

At last!!! Someone else who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Greer's backside!!!!

Cory Holmes
November 6th, 2009, 12:03 PM
At last!!! Someone else who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Greer's backside!!!!

Oh, make no mistake: Not for a second do I deny that Greer has his problems and his history. I just think he's one of the most entertaining and three-dimensional characters on the show, and it's only six episodes in!

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Oh, make no mistake: Not for a second do I deny that Greer has his problems and his history. I just think he's one of the most entertaining and three-dimensional characters on the show, and it's only six episodes in!

Point taken. It's just that sometimes the Greer-love on here gets a bit overwhelming.

It's difficult to explain why I prefer Spencer but I do :)


Oh, I just got promoted :D

senatorincitatus
November 6th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Surely whether Telford is less likeable than Young is completely besides the point. Greer still struck a superior officer

It's not beside the point if you're questioning why the fans are okay with one act of insubordination and not another.


At last!!! Someone else who doesn't think that the sun shines out of Greer's backside!!!!

I agree with Cory. I like the character because he's troubled. It makes him a billion times more interesting than someone you could always count on to do the right thing in every situation.


Point taken. It's just that sometimes the Greer-love on here gets a bit overwhelming.
It's difficult to explain why I prefer Spencer but I do :)

Spencer is also a very interesting character. I think the only reasons he's not more popular are that first, he's been deliberately set up in opposition to our main characters, and second, he hasn't been shown to have much of a sense of humor. For my money, that makes him a less likable person but in no way compromises his likability as a character.


Oh, I just got promoted :D

Congrats, Airman! :D

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2009, 01:58 PM
Spencer is also a very interesting character. I think the only reasons he's not more popular are that first, he's been deliberately set up in opposition to our main characters, and second, he hasn't been shown to have much of a sense of humor. For my money, that makes him a less likable person but in no way compromises his likability as a character.


You know, I couldn't have put it any better myself :)

Radahldo
November 6th, 2009, 03:52 PM
You know, I couldn't have put it any better myself :)

I don't understand what you agree with there? You like him despite very little occuring within the narrative that incites the viewer to empathize with him?

Jeff-B
November 6th, 2009, 04:51 PM
I don't understand what you agree with there? You like him despite very little occuring within the narrative that incites the viewer to empathize with him?

Spencer at this point could still be redeemed. I could see empathy for someone with a prescription drug addiction. Subtle hints, but it was there. Especially because I'm sure he knows that when his supply is gone, it's going to be involuntary cold turkey. I've known people in real life that had addictions to prescription painkillers, and withdrawal is not pretty.

So yeah, I could empathize with him to some extent, but his attitude is really destroying what little morale there is aboard the ship.

spinny magee
November 6th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Did anyone else think when those guys took spencer away in Water they would deal with him their own way? Meh he will probably die of an overdose..shame though.

Or is my imagination going crazy again?

Blue Shadowdancer
November 6th, 2009, 05:45 PM
In my personal opinion, I don't really want to condem Spencer purely for being on pharmaceuticals, as many, particularly for pain, induce a chemical dependance in the body which doesn't mean that someone's an 'addict' in the traditional sense of the word. If he's taking painkillers, it could be because he's in pain. There's a significant difference between taking pain pills for dependence because of that reason, and taking them to get a 'hit', which is the situations in which people overdose.

I'm just saying this to be devil's advocate here, but I thought this viewpoint should be raised :) To be clear, the above doesn't have any bearing on my view of him stealing rations or trying to incite mutiny, both of which I'm very much against. I just don't think he should be judged so severly on this point :)

garhkal
November 6th, 2009, 09:36 PM
Spencer already came awful close to inciting a mutiny once already, and probably would have succeeded if Greer hadn't dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Then he was caught red-handed hoarding probably 10 gallons of water or more while Young and associates are trying to ration it to last as long as possible. You could kind of expect civilian scientists to act like this, but being military he should know better.

I've never been in the military, but aren't you supposed to follow orders from a superior officer without question? Even specifically in SG canon, wasn't there a few times that some Marines accompanied SG1 on missions, and they followed O'Neill's (Air Force Colonel's) orders to hold the gate?

You are supposed to follow LAWFUL orders. Like if i give you an order to take say hill X but some of the enemy combatants there are women and you object to hurting females, you are still supposed to do it. BUT if i ordered you to kill said women and they were NOT combatants you would be well within your rights to refuse.


Surely whether Telford is less likeable than Young is completely besides the point. Greer still struck a superior officer

That is true, and he should be punished for it. Normally for assult of a superior officer it is 15 days in the brig, reduction in rank to E1 (for those NOT E7 and above) and most likely that is it, though thye can also push for an Other than Honerable discharge. BUT with them needing every able bodied man on the ship, at most i could see young giving him a public berating and yank a stripe,..

Sgt Detritus
November 7th, 2009, 02:28 AM
I don't understand what you agree with there? You like him despite very little occuring within the narrative that incites the viewer to empathize with him?

I like him because he is so deliberately being set up as the villain and I like being contrary :)