Did the Ancients make the Goa'uld?

[Aesir_Asura]

I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released, but as we have seen the Jaffa are not effected because of their symbiote. So the thought occured to me that it is odd that the Goa'uld are almost like the Ancients. The Ancients did not need hand devices, healing devices, sarcophagii, probably ships for that matter, they had all the abilities of their technology biologically within themselves. So why did they create all the pointless technology that is out there that the Goa'uld copied? I think that they rigged the whole deal. They gave the Goa'uld naquada in their blood and laced world after world with technology that would be useless to themselves, but very useful to the Goa'uld. Why, you might ask? Because as long as humans had Goa'uld amongst them the virus could not wipe them all out.

I don't know though, it is full of holes, like that Ra didn't discover humans until much later. I figured I'd just throw that one out there and see what you all think about it. Thanks for your feedback.

[simon4of4]

Okay, I guess I've missed something. Someone please remind me who the "wraiths" are???

I searched the Omnipedia but didn't find anything. :(

[KorbenDirewolf]

the Wraith are a race that may appear in SG: Atlantis ( I think)

[simon4of4]

Ah. Okay.

I'm trying to stay in the dark about Atlantis so that I can form a, somewhat, unbaised opinion when it aires. Which of course is why I didn't know who they were. :)

[Sir Ruff]

Whooooow whoooow guys ... are we missing something? something like this
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Aight?

[Ugly Pig]

The Ancients did not need hand devices, healing devices, sarcophagii, probably ships for that matter, they had all the abilities of their technology biologically within themselves. So why did they create all the pointless technology that is out there that the Goa'uld copied?
I don't know about the hand devices, but the Ancients did not create the sarcophagus. The Goa'uld themselves did, although it was based on Ancient technology.

[anubis3355]

"I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released"

Who said that the Wraiths created the Virus.............you just assume that............so one more plot hole..................

[Bast]

No they did not

[SGSlugger]

Wasn't there a whole debate on this already on the old forum? Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Spoilers, various eps (S6 & S7)....









I don't think that the Ancients created the Goa'uld, because in a certain episode (sorry, can't remember the name), SG-1 gated to a planet that Daniel guessed was the original homeworld of the Goold, since they found fossils and those Goold didn't have any naquada in their system.

Is it possible that they (= Ancients) added the naquada, I guess that would make sense. Just because the Ancients could heal themselves doesn't mean that they didn't need tech that could perhaps do it better? Did you see Aiyanna and Jack after they used their healing powers? They were beat. Our bodies can heal themselves and fight off infection, but we have medical procedures and medicine too.
Perhaps the Ancients left their technology laying around so that others could benefit from it?
Anusbis3355, how do we know that they didn't ;) ?

[Lugal]

I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released, but as we have seen the Jaffa are not effected because of their symbiote. So the thought occured to me that it is odd that the Goa'uld are almost like the Ancients. The Ancients did not need hand devices, healing devices, sarcophagii, probably ships for that matter, they had all the abilities of their technology biologically within themselves. So why did they create all the pointless technology that is out there that the Goa'uld copied? I think that they rigged the whole deal. They gave the Goa'uld naquada in their blood and laced world after world with technology that would be useless to themselves, but very useful to the Goa'uld. Why, you might ask? Because as long as humans had Goa'uld amongst them the virus could not wipe them all out.

I don't know though, it is full of holes, like that Ra didn't discover humans until much later. I figured I'd just throw that one out there and see what you all think about it. Thanks for your feedback.

No. The Goa'uld evolved on a planet that happened to have a stargate. Once they learned to work it, they left and started stealing whatever technology they could, including whatever they could find from the Ancients since they were dead or ascended by then.

When the Goa'uld join with a host they gain all the hosts knowledge, which makes it easy for them to take technology.

[Champos]

I doubt the Ancients created the Go'auld, but I reckon there's got to be some kind of history there. If you think back to maybe the Fifth Race, Thor said about something how the Asgard were friends to all except the Go'auld who were their mortal enemies. If you ask me, someone has unresolved issues...

[Newbie]

I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released, but as we have seen the Jaffa are not effected because of their symbiote. So the thought occured to me that it is odd that the Goa'uld are almost like the Ancients. The Ancients did not need hand devices, healing devices, sarcophagii, probably ships for that matter, they had all the abilities of their technology biologically within themselves. So why did they create all the pointless technology that is out there that the Goa'uld copied? I think that they rigged the whole deal. They gave the Goa'uld naquada in their blood and laced world after world with technology that would be useless to themselves, but very useful to the Goa'uld. Why, you might ask? Because as long as humans had Goa'uld amongst them the virus could not wipe them all out.

I don't know though, it is full of holes, like that Ra didn't discover humans until much later. I figured I'd just throw that one out there and see what you all think about it. Thanks for your feedback.
Goa'uld are these parasitic snakes...so why would ancients make them, huh? the sound of this question answers the question, NO!!!... Goa'uld are different race, and because they are parasitic the still stuff...and those technologies prolly were not copied just from the ancients...there might be some other races...or may be they made some stuff themslefs...and then think, Ancients were not always like they are NOW!!! soo....yeah

[earck]

Interesting theory but quite a bit of a stretch. It is possible but I just don't see it.

[Kal-El]

I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released, but as we have seen the Jaffa are not effected because of their symbiote. So the thought occured to me that it is odd that the Goa'uld are almost like the Ancients. The Ancients did not need hand devices, healing devices, sarcophagii, probably ships for that matter, they had all the abilities of their technology biologically within themselves. So why did they create all the pointless technology that is out there that the Goa'uld copied? I think that they rigged the whole deal. They gave the Goa'uld naquada in their blood and laced world after world with technology that would be useless to themselves, but very useful to the Goa'uld. Why, you might ask? Because as long as humans had Goa'uld amongst them the virus could not wipe them all out.

I don't know though, it is full of holes, like that Ra didn't discover humans until much later. I figured I'd just throw that one out there and see what you all think about it. Thanks for your feedback.
I can't believe it, that is the exact thought, I have been having for a long time now. It would explain quite alot, even to the point that Anubis found out how to ascend but the Ancients knocked him back...Rather like parents of a rebelious child saying: "You are grounded, go to your room..." heehee :)
Thank you for putting it so succinctly?

[Kal-El]

"I was thinking, the virus kills humans and Ancients that the wraiths released"

Who said that the Wraiths created the Virus.............you just assume that............so one more plot hole..................
Err...didn't you read the Stargate: Atlantis synopsis. jees

[Kal-El]

Interesting theory but quite a bit of a stretch. It is possible but I just don't see it.
Just wondering, do you have a perscription for your Tunnel vision.
Open mindedness is a gift not a curse you know.

[Champos]

Just wondering, do you have a perscription for your Tunnel vision.
Open mindedness is a gift not a curse you know.

Ah, but to have no mind is neither gift nor curse.

Sorry, I'm being annoying. I'll try to stop.

[thor39]

I don't think the Wraithes created the virus I think they are the 'virus'. After all Daniel said it was a plague not a virus :p
Very good idea, perhaps the ancients were experimenting and created the first generations of goa'uld trying to harness healing properties in their earlier stages of evolution. However unlikely this is I find it quite ingenious :D

[Teal'c]

Err...didn't you read the Stargate: Atlantis synopsis. jees
It never said that, now who's got tunnel vision? :P

I don't buy it because A) This particular version of it has several holes (As the poster pointed out) and B) It's.... just stupid, I don't know, something just doesn't seem right about it even it the holes weren't there....

[spg_1983]

It never said that, now who's got tunnel vision? :P

I don't buy it because A) This particular version of it has several holes (As the poster pointed out) and B) It's.... just stupid, I don't know, something just doesn't seem right about it even it the holes weren't there....
lol thats so funny because whenever i try to think about this theory, something just doesnt seem right to me, its like ackward to think about

[USS Thunderchild]

I'm sorry, but what virus are we talking about here? Was there a virus that wiped out the ancients? And wasn't it established that the ancients were just highly evolved humans? Ugh, I thought I knew stuff about Stargate but now I'm just being proved dumb. Thee Gou'ald have naquada in their blood? Just the symbiotes though, right? I'm soooo confused! Help!

Phil

[Teal'c]

I'm sorry, but what virus are we talking about here? Was there a virus that wiped out the ancients? And wasn't it established that the ancients were just highly evolved humans? Ugh, I thought I knew stuff about Stargate but now I'm just being proved dumb. Thee Gou'ald have naquada in their blood? Just the symbiotes though, right? I'm soooo confused! Help!

Phil
In Full Circle Daniel tells them the Ancients were wiped out by a plague.

And symbiotes have Naquada in their blood, but they release it into a hosts body once they take them so they can use Hand Devices etc.

[neith4]

This question comes up over and over again - did the Ancients create the Gouald

Oneof the more popular pieces of fanon as opposed to official canon is this one :

I and others have proposed that given what's we;ve seen of Gouald culture and phsyiology

The Gouald and possibly the Unas evolved on the same planet

The goulad became symbiotes / parasites possibly to adapt to a climate change - swamp cahnging to grassland or a drought - possibly they symbiosis evolved later - the gouald acting as an extra kidney filtering toxins from the host and then later they evolved the gene scanning dna altering response that also benefited the host.

Originally they probably left the host on maturity and became aquatic life forms reproducing in the adult phase

However perhaps when the Unas or some other host speceis became sentient the Gouald also became sentient due to genetic transposition - that may have also increased their genetic modification abilities - ?


Anyway along came the Ancients and they probably took the Gouald off planet and either introeduced them to the Unas or involved the Unas and Gouald in expereiments to further imporve their abilities and turn the Unas in slave labor and the gouald into biological healing devices

somwhere along this line of evolution and modiifcation the gouald devloped the ability to attach themselves to a hosts brain stem and possibly to modify their hosts dna and overwrite it with their own allowing them to reproduce in humanoid hosts - ie hathor hatching eggs at sgc?

the gouald no longer matured into an "adult" aquatic form - the species may have split into two - an unmodified original like those on one of the unas worlds and another subspecies ancestral to the modern gouald

gentic transposition lead to the gouald acquiring human hardwiring - a urge to be alpha - the need for conquest on some gouald - human emotional traits etc

okay they're in a ancient bio lab - there was some kind of accident - maybe the plague started as a bioweapon - somehow the gouald and unas got free and some of them jumped into humanoid hosts and they started taking their revenge on those who had enslaved and experimented on them

meanwhile the ancient society is breaking down cos the plague and maybe also problems with the wraith and other species - maybe the wraith were another experiement gone wrong - in the resulting chaos the gouald managed to get to our galaxy and take over a few planets and some of the hosts knew how to work the gates ?

why do I think the goulad evolved independently of the ancients or unas - look at their body symmetry ?

and here's another thought maybe the ancients modifed the goulad hoping to use them as memory transfer devices - the symbiote leaving ahost of death and taking its memories to a new maybe clone body - serial immortality ?

The ancients may not have created the Gouald but on the limited data available its seems possible they were responsible for the Gouald becoming a plague by introducing them into new habitats?

Neith NOT A Larval Symbiote !!! But Scribe for a Goullawk Queen!!!

Vist Neith's Place and Sassy Gate!

[Greesha]

Anyway along came the Ancients and they probably took the Gouald off planet and either introeduced them to the Unas or involved the Unas and Gouald in expereiments to further imporve their abilities and turn the Unas in slave labor and the gouald into biological healing devices

...

okay they're in a ancient bio lab - there was some kind of accident - maybe the plague started as a bioweapon - somehow the gouald and unas got free and some of them jumped into humanoid hosts and they started taking their revenge on those who had enslaved and experimented on them

...

and here's another thought maybe the ancients modifed the goulad hoping to use them as memory transfer devices - the symbiote leaving ahost of death and taking its memories to a new maybe clone body - serial immortality ?

The ancients may not have created the Gouald but on the limited data available its seems possible they were responsible for the Gouald becoming a plague by introducing them into new habitats?




interesting...i never thought of it that way but it makes sense.

[Rukkian]

The ancients may have been able to heal themselves near the end, but there is no saying that they always could. The healing devices may have been around from earlier in their evolution.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

I use the model of one of Earth's parasite/host relationships to explain the Ancient's connection to the Goa'uld. SACCULINA CARCINI is an Earth parasite that turns its host into a parasite baby factory

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_8_21/ai_63583791

(Scroll down to the middle of the article. BTW, this particular parasite even makes its host's eyes glow!)

Here's how I picture it happening: The Ancients are dying. They are looking at every possible angle to survive. They've even tried turning back the clock(WoO). They come across this planet with two species, the Unas and the Goa'uld, and study their relationship. They discover that the Goa'uld use the Unas only as receptacles as part of their breeding cycle(as does Sacculina Carcini). In order to protect their young that grow inside the Unas(and later hatch into the waters - think Hathor), the Goa'uld take over the host's immune system with their own superior system.

The Ancients see the potential and experiment. But the Goa'uld is not adapted for the ancient's phisiology; they have to introduce something - an anti-rejection element - into the parasite. This is where naquadah comes into the picture. Naquadah is not naturally occuring in native Goa'uld and is not present on their planet.

The newly bio-engineered symbiote is a success. The Ancients put a Stargate on the Goa'uld homeworld and a steady stream of patients come through for an implant. But the Ancients underestimate the abilities of this parasite. Over time the parasite learns to take advantage of the vastly superior brain of the Ancients and it takes over.

But the Ancient's bodies are difficult to maintain(Ra remarked on why he preferred a human host to some other host in the Movie), so, using the Ancients tech and brainpower, it devises what becomes the sarc in order to keep the host in maintainable shape. In time they found stronger, better suited hosts, and, as they do with slaves when they no longer need them, the Goa'uld abandonned the Ancients, and they died out.

[LordAnubis]

I use the model of one of Earth's parasite/host relationships to explain the Ancient's connection to the Goa'uld. SACCULINA CARCINI is an Earth parasite that turns its host into a parasite baby factory

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1511/is_8_21/ai_63583791

(Scroll down to the middle of the article. BTW, this particular parasite even makes its host's eyes glow!)

Here's how I picture it happening: The Ancients are dying. They are looking at every possible angle to survive. They've even tried turning back the clock(WoO). They come across this planet with two species, the Unas and the Goa'uld, and study their relationship. They discover that the Goa'uld use the Unas only as receptacles as part of their breeding cycle(as does Sacculina Carcini). In order to protect their young that grow inside the Unas(and later hatch into the waters - think Hathor), the Goa'uld take over the host's immune system with their own superior system.

The Ancients see the potential and experiment. But the Goa'uld is not adapted for the ancient's phisiology; they have to introduce something - an anti-rejection element - into the parasite. This is where naquadah comes into the picture. Naquadah is not naturally occuring in native Goa'uld and is not present on their planet.

The newly bio-engineered symbiote is a success. The Ancients put a Stargate on the Goa'uld homeworld and a steady stream of patients come through for an implant. But the Ancients underestimate the abilities of this parasite. Over time the parasite learns to take advantage of the vastly superior brain of the Ancients and it takes over.

But the Ancient's bodies are difficult to maintain(Ra remarked on why he preferred a human host to some other host in the Movie), so, using the Ancients tech and brainpower, it devises what becomes the sarc in order to keep the host in maintainable shape. In time they found stronger, better suited hosts, and, as they do with slaves when they no longer need them, the Goa'uld abandonned the Ancients, and they died out.
The Ancients were advanced humans. Ra was the first Goa'uld to discover humans, and he did so on Earth, not on P3X-888. Your idea is cool, but unrealistic. The Goa'uld evolved as a native intelligent species on P3X-888 and later discovered that they could control the Unas, their first hosts. They were parasitic, but not true parasites. Eventually, they figured out how to use the gate and the rest is history.

I don't think the Ancients created the Goa'uld, nor did they really even know the Goa'uld existed. By the time the Goau'ld started to dominate the galaxy, the Ancients had moved on to the Pegasus galaxy, died off in our galaxy, or ascended. They were not dominant or active around our galaxy by the time the goa'uld infested unas found earth.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

[QUOTE]The Ancients were advanced humans. Ra was the first Goa'uld to discover humans, and he did so on Earth, not on P3X-888. Your idea is cool, but unrealistic.

Yeah, well, it is just a theory. :) But are the Ancients humans? We are the second evolution of the Ancients, not the actual descendants of them. Yes? No?

We do know that the Ancients were dying out(Frozen, WoO) so it could be possible that some scientists had experimented with using the curative powers of other life forms to help themselves. We do it all the time in our own medical research. It seems less of a stretch to try that than to invent from scratch a time travel device. :)


The Goa'uld evolved as a native intelligent species on P3X-888 and later discovered that they could control the Unas, their first hosts. They were parasitic, but not true parasites. Eventually, they figured out how to use the gate and the rest is history.

But just how did that Gate get there, on the Goa'uld homeworld? The Ancients must have put it there. I don't care how smart the Goa'uld might have been when they infested the Unas, they did not have the means to build FTL spaceships or the gate - there being 1) no trace of any sort of technological base on the homeworld, and, 2) no naquada present with which to build the gate.



I don't think the Ancients created the Goa'uld, nor did they really even know the Goa'uld existed. By the time the Goau'ld started to dominate the galaxy, the Ancients had moved on to the Pegasus galaxy, died off in our galaxy, or ascended. They were not dominant or active around our galaxy by the time the goa'uld infested unas found earth.

I don't think they "created" the Goa'uld, either. More like, gave them an evolutionary boost.

The ancients definately knew about the Goa'uld because they had developed certain technologies to combat the Goa'uld as well as to shut them out of their knowledge repositories. Daniel, in Fifth Race, called the Ancients the "builders of roads", and may have been the ones to teach the Romans as well as giving them the basic structure of latin, which is the foundation of many languages down to this day. But also:

Spoiler for Atlantis

:)
:)
:)
:)
:)
:)
:)


Mackay reasoned that the Greeks learned of Atlantis through some of the Ancients. The Egyptians pre-date both the Greeks and the Romans. The Goa'uld were definately not only around, but had held dominance on Earth long before the Ancients left. (and, dang-it! that destroys my arguement, on another thread, for why the Asgard would not have known about the Wraiths. :( )

[aschen]

Yeah, well, it is just a theory. :) But are the Ancients humans? We are the second evolution of the Ancients, not the actual descendants of them. Yes? No?

Yes, yes they are human. We're a few steps behind them in terms of evolutionary advancement, but at the core we're still the same species.

[LordAnubis]

Yeah, well, it is just a theory. :) But are the Ancients humans? We are the second evolution of the Ancients, not the actual descendants of them. Yes? No?

We do know that the Ancients were dying out(Frozen, WoO) so it could be possible that some scientists had experimented with using the curative powers of other life forms to help themselves. We do it all the time in our own medical research. It seems less of a stretch to try that than to invent from scratch a time travel device. :)



But just how did that Gate get there, on the Goa'uld homeworld? The Ancients must have put it there. I don't care how smart the Goa'uld might have been when they infested the Unas, they did not have the means to build FTL spaceships or the gate - there being 1) no trace of any sort of technological base on the homeworld, and, 2) no naquada present with which to build the gate.




I don't think they "created" the Goa'uld, either. More like, gave them an evolutionary boost.

The ancients definately knew about the Goa'uld because they had developed certain technologies to combat the Goa'uld as well as to shut them out of their knowledge repositories. Daniel, in Fifth Race, called the Ancients the "builders of roads", and may have been the ones to teach the Romans as well as giving them the basic structure of latin, which is the foundation of many languages down to this day. But also:

Spoiler for Atlantis

:)
:)
:)
:)
:)
:)
:)


Mackay reasoned that the Greeks learned of Atlantis through some of the Ancients. The Egyptians pre-date both the Greeks and the Romans. The Goa'uld were definately not only around, but had held dominance on Earth long before the Ancients left. (and, dang-it! that destroys my arguement, on another thread, for why the Asgard would not have known about the Wraiths. :( )
I never said the Goa'uld created or built the gate on their homeworld. I said they were intelligent enough to figure it out very shortly after they infested the Unas and learned how to control other species. The Goa'uld could not simply be parasites who learned to do neat things in other creature's minds. The Goa'uld were intelligent, advanced, cunning sentient beings who learned a great deal by observing and experimenting. The Ancients used ships to gring the gate to P3X-888. They contructed the gate and the DHD on that world. They most likely only came back a few times to try out the gate. I think the plan was to seed inhabitable worlds with Ancients (or lesser humans) at that time, but for whatever reason, they never got around to seeding P3X-888 with humans/ancients. After the gate was built, the goa'uld took over that world with their unas hosts, then started to figure things out. Who knows how long this process took; it may have been millions of years after the gate was installed.

For whatever reason, the Goa'uld chose not to stay on their native planet -- they probably wanted to forget about their humble beginnings and bailed. I'm also not sure why they left so many native goau'ld behind. There are more unaswered questions than there are answered ones.

[Torley]

You never know what the Ancients kept as pets and decided to abandon them all on a planet... their dark secret... j/k :)

But really, if the Ancients were so advanced with genetic manipulation, there would have been more signs pointing to that by now. It's possible but unlikely.

[raeble]

But the Ancient's bodies are difficult to maintain(Ra remarked on why he preferred a human host to some other host in the Movie), so, using the Ancients tech and brainpower, it devises what becomes the sarc in order to keep the host in maintainable shape. In time they found stronger, better suited hosts, and, as they do with slaves when they no longer need them, the Goa'uld abandonned the Ancients, and they died out.

In the film they look competely different. Ra was about the same size as a human but he had those wraith like teeth. According to the film when DJ is in the cave "Ra was a traveller from distant stars who had escaped a dying world looking for a way to extend his own life. His body was decaying and weak, he couldn't prevent his own dimise. His entire species was dying. So he searched the galaxy looking for a way to cheat death. He came across a world filled with life where he encountered a primitive species - Humans. A species with all his powers and knowledge he could maintain indefinately."

I like your theory it's interesting but what about instead of using the Ancients as hosts, Ra used the Wraith? In the film he looks more Wraith-like than anything, all wisened and decayed with those nasty teeth.

[Metonic]

The virus, plague. disease, call it what you will was before the ancients left. This is the reason why they left. Upon their return to earth they had gotten infected by the plague again, whcih you may remember in history as the black plague.

The Ancients made the techs for theemselvs some of it might of been old, but I must ask what episode did they say the gou'ald take Ancient Techs and backword engineeer them or anything.

[auir999]

hell no why would they, aren't they a peaceful race, who values life. Why would they create a species that essentially surpresses life.